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gun debate

do you believe in gun control?

heck yeah!57%[ 17 ]
no way!43%[ 13 ]

Total Votes : 30

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Posted: Fri, 19th Sep 2003, 12:22pm

Post 1 of 212

4036Douglas

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ok, i dont want people to keep mucking up band of fellows discussion with a big debate. so people please post here about that subject now.
Posted: Fri, 19th Sep 2003, 1:34pm

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Ice_Man

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this was a wise idea, 4036Douglas. you get a thumbs up biggrin
Posted: Fri, 19th Sep 2003, 2:06pm

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otteypm

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I think the problem, after watching Bowling For Columbine, is that it is just far too easy to get guns in America.

There is the scene where he goes into the hardware store with the kids and buys all their ammunition, that is ridiculous, it was a young kid selling the bullets he never even questioned why someone would want that much ammo.

In England I have to show my licence every time I buy cartridges.

I don't beleive guns should be banned out right, I enjoy my shooting too much, but I do think careful checks should be made on owners before issuing them with a licence. And licences should be checked every time ammo is purchased.


Basically
Gun Control Yes
Outright Bans No
Posted: Fri, 19th Sep 2003, 2:38pm

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b4uask30male

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No for england
For the reason, the USA carry guns and the police, the amount of deaths by guns is very high.

England,
People don't carry guns, police don't and very very low gun deaths.

Not trying to annoy people in the USA, but they have now got into that situation and can't get out of it.
England has not gone down that road yet, and with a little luck we won't.
Posted: Fri, 19th Sep 2003, 3:06pm

Post 5 of 212

chuter

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I agree, it is too late to change the situation in america, because guns have been so easily available for such a long time, but i disagree with those who think that allowing guns by law does not mean an increase in deaths. ( Thankyou to 4036douglas for moving the discussion )
Posted: Fri, 19th Sep 2003, 3:22pm

Post 6 of 212

anonymous

Rating: +1

[url]http://www.discerningtoday.org/members/Digest/2000Digest/February/Gun%20Control%20Doesn't%20Work.htm[/url]
have a look see at that article

http://gunsafe.org/position%20statements/Guns%20and%20crime.htm
this site has some interesting facts on the matter
I find this one in particular to be interesting :

Researchers have studied the figures on firearms ownership, firearms accidents, suicides, and murders, during the period from 1959 to the present. Purpose: To find out whether accidents, suicides, or murders by firearm increase or decrease as the supply of firearms increases or decreases. Result: The rates of accidents and murders by firearms do not show any relationship to the number of guns owned by civilians. The gun supply has increased and decreased without affecting the accident or murder rates. Suicides by firearms have increased when more guns have been available, but the total suicide rate hasn’t changed; when guns are less available, people find other ways to commit suicide.
notice the incredible span of time. from 1959 to the present. that study isn't going to be easily effected by short periods of unrest much like what happened about the time of the infamous Columbine incident.
this is another tidbit that caught my eye :
Defensive gun uses (DGUs) by civilians, per year...2,500,000 to 3,500,000

Fraction of DGUs in which no shot is fired...92%

In most DGUs, a firearm is merely displayed by the intended victim, and the criminal flees. No one is injured. Civilian gun ownership clearly gives the edge to the law-abiding defender, because in 82 percent of DGU situations, the criminal has no gun.
yeah, restricting gun possession from civilians will be a grand idea.

by the way, Ian - let's see some hard figures.
Posted: Fri, 19th Sep 2003, 3:23pm

Post 7 of 212

anonymous

my most humble apologies, that previous post was me. forgot to name myself. . . . .
Posted: Fri, 19th Sep 2003, 3:26pm

Post 8 of 212

raider

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As far as accidental discharges - yes, ban guns. What makes a person use a gun against another? We should ban poverty, homelessness, drugs, and mental disorders. Death will occur regardless - we can't ban pipes, axes, and knives. I believe gun control would be a start but then again drugs are "banned" and look what measures people will go to to get a hold of them. You can compare England and the US statistically but there's also size, reputation, and social customs/lifestyles to consider.
Posted: Fri, 19th Sep 2003, 3:26pm

Post 9 of 212

anonymous

otteypm - careful background checks and screenings are required by law, as well as a waiting period, before a civilian can actually take possession of a gun they have purchased.
gunshop owners and managers HAVE to perform this screening and background check, they're breaking the law if they don't. just because some people can't follow the law doesn't mean that guns should be banned from everybody
it's also illegal to drive a car without a proper license, but that doesn't stop people from doing it. maybe we should outlaw driving as well?
Posted: Fri, 19th Sep 2003, 3:35pm

Post 10 of 212

b4uask30male

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Hard figures. in reply to Iceman.

Switch the tv on, sky news 1 gun shooting in England maybe once a month.

CNN, every day. not including a few snipers

I'm not against guns, but I don't see the reasons in allowing England to copy the USA, you have to agree the USA can't go back now.
I mean kids take guns into schools ( before you ask what proof, see above )

Why not bow and arrows, these are done in controlled places and is fine, same should go for guns, you want to shoot, go somewhere safe.

Hands up then who thinks that ENGLAND should allow people to walk around with guns.
Posted: Fri, 19th Sep 2003, 3:49pm

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otteypm

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I wasn't aware of the gun licensing laws in America, from watching Bowling In Columbine it just seemed far to easy to buy those excessive amounts of ammo.

I agree banning guns completely is wrong, as stated before it has no effect on crime rates, the gun doesn't do the killing, the person on the other end of it does, nobody blames the knife when someone is stabbed.

People need the proper respect for the weapon they use, I remember seeing posts here about guns in films, and some people were seriously suggesting using firearms in their films instead of plastic replicas.

Don't ban guns (or cars) because they are not responsible for the way people choose to use them.
Posted: Fri, 19th Sep 2003, 3:52pm

Post 12 of 212

anonymous

ah, see Ian, those aren't hard figures. that's relying on what you can remember from months and months ago.
it was really said quite well in Memento, memory's hardly and indication of anything. memory changes, it can alter the color of a car, the height of a man, and the number of deaths caused by guns every month wink

so those aren't hard figures Ian. Give me stats.


otteypm - yep. BY LAW, it's hard for people without the proper qualifications to get them. but that doesn't stop some people
Posted: Fri, 19th Sep 2003, 4:01pm

Post 13 of 212

anonymous

another thing people need to realize is that while Bowling for Columbine might have been an accurate representation of what the circumstances were then and there. that doesn't necessarily hold true for the rest of America or even the rest of Colorado.
Posted: Fri, 19th Sep 2003, 4:37pm

Post 14 of 212

b4uask30male

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last person i heard about was some sister to a tennis player, ( i don't watch news that much, and i'm not going to get into stat's because people here what they want to hear.
eg: 70% of stats are made up, so can you trust the stat's.
I only know what I hear, and my hearing if fine.

what.... didn't quite catch that.

As I said before i'm not anti guns, but there is no REASON ON EARTH to carry one around in the streets unless you want to use it to shoot something, a car is a means to get somewhere, a knife is used to cut, a gun is used to.........
Posted: Fri, 19th Sep 2003, 5:02pm

Post 15 of 212

anonymous

in my experience, when people refuse to believe stats is when the stats don't work in their favor. . . .


no reason to carry a gun? how about when a two-bit crook holds you up with a knife, and you pull your gun out to scare him away? don't even have to shoot it, but it defused a potentially volatile situation

a gun can be used to protect or attack. it depends on the user.
Posted: Fri, 19th Sep 2003, 5:16pm

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Kid

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I totally disagree that the availability of guns is unrelated to the amount of gun crime. The figures support this entirely.

There are 2 major differences between a gun and a knife. Firstly you can do a lot more damage and over a distance with a gun. Also the gun detracts from the act. It is far easier to pull a trigger than to get in there and stab someone with a knife. Also there is a lot less risk in shooting someone than trying to stab them making you more likely to shoot. A knife is much more of a defensive or threatening weapon because it gives the person the option to run away whereas you cant just run away from a gun.

There is no legitimate reason for needing a gun. It doesn't actually offer added protection, it just makes you feel safer. Also it causes criminals to step up their level of weaponary. There is no reason for a civilian to step up for protection because they are less likely to be expecting to have to use it and less skilfull with it and in the end it will make them more likely to be shot by a criminal rather than just being threatened.
Posted: Fri, 19th Sep 2003, 6:53pm

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Ice_Man

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again, with the marvelously naive ideals.

show me your figures that indicate that to the contrary.

guns don't do more damage than a knife. you are correct that it can be done over a distance, but they don't do more damage. it's easier to repair gunshot wounds than it is to repair knife wounds. the knife is a fare more intrusive entry, it's bigger, stays in for longer, and doesn't have the advantage of being sterilized by the heat of explosion.

again, criminals will always have firearms.
the first rule of a gunfight is to bring a gun. a knife as a defensive weapon? fine. but not against a gun.

there are plenty of legitimate reasons for needing a gun. not all of which stem from self defense.
Posted: Fri, 19th Sep 2003, 6:58pm

Post 18 of 212

b4uask30male

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Kid you said what i was trying to say, well done.

Iceman do you have a gun and if you had it on you and we had a disagrement would you pull the gun as stated on your post, to make the guy scared, even if you don't pull the trigger. ?

Could it be possible that the guy you scare away then thinks, right that "£$% has a gun, i'll get one ( he didn't know you wasn't going to shoot remember )

I would love to shoot dead a guy that enters my home (burgle) I know I would not even think twice if i had a gun, so i guess i'm lucky I don't have one.

we in england had a guy shoot dead a burgler in his house, ( tony martin, a farmer ) he got 5 years for defending his home, I stand by him but now he is freed, he has to have police protection for fear of being shot himself.

where does it end ?
Posted: Fri, 19th Sep 2003, 7:43pm

Post 19 of 212

Kid

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Ice_Man wrote:

guns don't do more damage than a knife. you are correct that it can be done over a distance, but they don't do more damage. it's easier to repair gunshot wounds than it is to repair knife wounds. the knife is a fare more intrusive entry, it's bigger, stays in for longer, and doesn't have the advantage of being sterilized by the heat of explosion.
That is simply rubbish. Why? Because gunshot wounds are typically much worse than knife wounds and secondly they arn't sterilized by the heat at all. The bullet stays in causing infection. You may be confusing lightsabres and bullets there! razz (In case you are thinking that a bullet wound is just the size of the hole where it goes in, you need to remember the damage spreads out in a cone shape from that. Exit wounds are huge.)

b4uask30male wrote:

we in england had a guy shoot dead a burgler in his house, ( tony martin, a farmer ) he got 5 years for defending his home, I stand by him but now he is freed, he has to have police protection for fear of being shot himself.
heh, well he isn't a good example because he set traps to purposefully injure burglars around his house and land and shot at visitors and people for taking his apples. The guy he shot wasn't even threatening him at the time, he shot him in the back as he ran away.

Ice_Man wrote:

the first rule of a gunfight is to bring a gun. a knife as a defensive weapon? fine. but not against a gun.
Well you have just answered yourself there. How does a gun defend you from a gun? It doesn't at all. It simply forces them to shoot you before you shoot them whereas before they might have only used it to threaten you. If you are worried about being shot, you can get a better defence from a bulletproof vest.
Posted: Fri, 19th Sep 2003, 8:33pm

Post 20 of 212

b4uask30male

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your right about him setting traps, but he was burgled about 15 times before and he was so scared that he went to those lenghts to stop it.

I know i would have done the same as him with a gun.

I do have a large army knife ( first blood type ) that i brought to use in films as a prop, but it's found it's way into my bedroom, I would use it to defend my house and I would use a gun.

So I think we are all right in some ways, kid is right because there is no real reason to carry a gun in England.
Iceman is right because in countries where everyone has guns it's a safer option for you to have one and kill insted of be killed by the next person with a gun.
Posted: Fri, 19th Sep 2003, 8:55pm

Post 21 of 212

anonymous

Kid, I have a measure of respect for you. in a topic such as this, I would thank you to keep your ridiculous notions about lightsabers out of it.

you won't find infectious bacteria just chillin' out on a bullet. and when was the last time you heard of someone getting shot with a rusty bullet?
both are circumstances that are totally likely when engaged in knife-knife, or knife-hand combat. which, in essence is what self defense is.

depending on firearm, a bullet could leave a large exit wound, but when considering the type of firearms we were talking about here, mostly 9mm pistols and such, the exit wound would be negligable. assuming, of course, that the bullet made a clean exit. if, as you so appropriately put it, the bullet remains lodged in the body, there would be no 'huge exit wound'. but nor would it remain in the body to cause infection. if you were shot, wouldn't you go to the hospital? I know I would. in which case, the bullet would be removed promptly, the wound cleaned and patched up.

Ian - that's kind of an obsurd comparison. 'if you were here, and we were having this argument would I shoot you'. . . .. that would be murder, which I don't condone. I condone the ownership and use of a firearm for self defensive purposes (and for the occassional shoot at the range wink )
nor would I merely brandish the firearm to intimidate you, as that is TOTALLY WRONG behavior for a responsible gun owner.

nothing defends against a gun, but plenty of things can counter a gun.


Ian - yes, I own a gun. A Glock 17. I have for some time. I also teach CCW courses. for those not in the know, a CCW license is the permit required to Carry a Concealed Weapon.



To all - this is quite obviously a topic that nobody's opinion will be changed over. this topic is one of the types where every basically just says what they believe over and over again. So, you all know my stance now, I won't go about selling it again. Suffice to say that we're all entitled to our opinions, even if I don't agree with yours, I'm okay with that.
Posted: Fri, 19th Sep 2003, 11:55pm

Post 22 of 212

sidewinder

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If you get shot with a pistol, you have an 86% chance of surviving. In other words, 86% of single-shot victims survive. Just thought I'd throw that in to the whole "danger of knife vs. gun" picture.

Now, B4, about your idea of statistics....

if you seriously believe that statistics have no relevance, then you must also beleive that facts have no relevance. And if you want to use that to your defense when confronted with a disagreement, I have no hope for you... wink

Also, those of you who think that banning guns reduce violent crime, like murders, muggings, etc., let me state clearly, that you are wrong.

Before you get all indignant, please go and look at some statistics. If you have any interest in seriously holding a debate, go and look for some facts, rather than spouting off on how violence is bad and guns are tools for violence, etc.

Now, for those others that convienently skip the facts, and say that no one should posess the capability to kill others, because it is morally wrong, Let me say this: Who died and made you king? I have broken no law, and know damn well how to use a gun responsibly. If I want to own one, why should your ideals of a tender, loving world impede on what I would like to do, especially if I AM NOT BREAKING ANY LAW.

If you don't want a gun, don't buy one. But leave me alone to live my life as I see fit, as long as I stay within the boundries of law.
Posted: Sat, 20th Sep 2003, 6:51am

Post 23 of 212

MechaForce

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Heh, honestly that last sentance kind of summed it up as "I am fine with the current status of how guns are controled."

Anyways, moving on.

Listen up: You can't be FOR GUN CONTROL or AGAINST GUN CONTROL. That's like saying "Are you for communism or anarchy?"

Bowling For Colombine stretched the truth in many spots, and it's better to watch the movie with a bit of knowledge on the subject first, because in the U.S., there is a law called the "Brady" law which states that a 5 day waiting period is required for buying guns (applied to all legit gun stores), and soon after that law was passed, an assualt weapons ban was enacted (assault=auto rifles w/ pistol grip ex Uzis, M16s, etc). Both laws decreased crime considerably, and have continued to do so since then, and that is an indisputable FACT. However, it is possible to buy guns at gun shows without undergoing waiting periods, but that is something which is going to be unstoppable.

Anyways, the point is, is that I do think that having conceal and carry permits (so you can legally carry a pistol) are a good thing, when handed out in moderate quantities.

But it's not a yes or no question. There are lunatics and there are law abiding citizens, and there will have to be laws for guns no matter what.

Change the freakin' vote categories!
And what is that 86% chance for? Head wounds? Heart? Liver? Knee? Forearm? Hand? Foot? Groin? Probably shoulder. It'd be nice to be shot in the face and have an 86% chance of surviving.
Posted: Sat, 20th Sep 2003, 7:39am

Post 24 of 212

b4uask30male

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Sidewinder, as for the stats, i've seen posts on here where people pull all the stats they can ( know know what i'm talking about ) But they get flamed, I won't waste my time going through the posts but anyone will remember subjects where all these stats ( on both side of the debate were used. ) that got every nowhere, lets forget stats, i wonder this morning if someone has been shot in the USA today, i'll look on the news.

As you can see by the way I type, I'm calm and I enjoy a good debate and i've learnd " what we have found is that people in countries with guns like them or want them, people in countries without guns don't want them"

So before anyone get annoyed at me, ( it happens on these kind of posts where there are 2 sides ) I would respectfully ask you to notice that I have been open in this debate and have excepted that the countries with guns need them.

Friends forever. confused
Posted: Sat, 20th Sep 2003, 10:30am

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er-no

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Its true that guns cause deaths and violence. Yet so do a number of things. People will always be able to get ahold of guns and weapons to commit a crime.

The discussion should be stopped now. Its just a vicious regress already. neutral
Posted: Sat, 20th Sep 2003, 11:53am

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4036Douglas

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MechaForce wrote:

" Change the freakin' vote categories!
.
umm.... sorry, i tried to add another option, but i guess i didnt press the button right or something. and now i cant edit it sad
Posted: Sat, 20th Sep 2003, 12:48pm

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sidewinder

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The 86% is the general survival rate. if you get shot in the head, you won't live, obviously, but that rarely happens, and is taken into account in the figure. 86% is the overall survival rate of people who have been shot. Do you understand now?

Also, about the automatic guns debate...If I were to go buy an Uzi or M16, which I can, as long as they're not automatic, I coud easily make it an automatic just by buying a specific metal piece over the internet from Isreal. So in essence, the law is useless. I've never heard about the banning of automatic weapons reducing crime, so please tell me where the facts come from.

The only type of control I'm for is an extensive background check to see if you have a history of mental illness or crime. If you come out clean, you should be able to own a gun. If you wanted to carry a concealed weapon, anyone who takes a class should be granted a permit. Period.
Posted: Sat, 20th Sep 2003, 1:21pm

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scobbs

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"Its true that guns cause deaths and violence."



Actually, it is the people that are commiting the crimes that cause the deaths and violence. I can't recall any cases where a gun jumped up and fired itself, killing others. Usually there is a hand behind the action.
Posted: Sat, 20th Sep 2003, 2:39pm

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Coldfuse

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Ok, i started to read this, then basicially got fed up with everything being said. it started to turn into an alrigth ENGLAND Vs AMERICA thing.

From what i have read and remembered i shall comment on.

First thing i want to get off my chest, is this one important fact. WHAT WERE GUNS DESIGNED FOR?

i mean the explosive discharge weapon, that you can now pick up quiet easily.

Was it used for the perpose, for killing an animal, for food or an other in battle. Or for the right to be seen as a rag doll.

I think in this new modern society, the gun is not respected like it should do. we could look at movies at part of this problem. as the the fanasty, of the action adventure has made guns, into something that is a weapon of choice, to kill someone so easily and with no reaction.

If we really ask our selfs, why do we need guns? i mean what in any mind does it have to do for us? I mean im not sure of this, but im sure sidewinder has a gun? (please tell me if im wrong) But really what need do u need from it?

as he said there is no point, banning certain types because you can easily just modify to the specific element. If anything why dont we just bann them all?

I have no use for a gun. i mean i am like any one else on this planet. i wake up, i go to school, i work, i go to sleep. i live the mundane life, we all live. But i dont have a gun, and i dont need one. but then what makes anyone else feel they need a gun to protect them selfs? I mean the world has gone mad. To much thinking about ITS GONNA HAPPEN TO ME!

To BEFORUASK, i think he had a very good point earlier on, with about the stats, and how ice_man thought it was a sight of losing the battle as it were. But i agree, i mean look at the Iraq war for instance, wasnt there a growing need and emergancey, for weapons. I mean wasnt there meant to be lots of designated points where the weapons were kept and manufacutred? where are they. Over here in england. stats will always be approx, to what the truth is. many just give a ruff figure, sometimes to help with funding, or to show a point inhand. And with the state of the american goverment, there is no doubt in my mind that, that happens alot of the time.

I think guns should be banned. look at it this way. supposedly in a point earlier 86% of criminals dont have a gun and so in those 86% cases having a gun would have the edge as it were in deffending them selfs. but what happend if that criminal took the gun? i mean then ur just feeding his income for guns. if we didnt have any guns then no one would use them. simple as.

doesnt matter how many times u do extensive checks, people will still be able to get that gun using illegal, paths, like stealing the gun FROM U!
Posted: Sat, 20th Sep 2003, 3:22pm

Post 30 of 212

scobbs

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"Those who are willing to sacrifice freedom for safety will usually end up with neither" -I believe that quote came from Ben Franklin (not positive on the source)

Ban Guns???

That sounds warm and fuzzy but think about it. How do you ban guns? By making it illegal for anyone to own one? If that is the case, do you think that a person who is willing to use one for malice, willing to spend the rest of their life in prison by taking another, cares one bit if they are illegal or not?

Or do you mean wiping them off the face of the earth? destroying all of them. Making them non-existant? I hope this is not your argument, for this idea is absurd and impossible.

Banning things just doesn't work. We in America know this from our history. They Banned Alocohol in the 20's........yeah that worked out real well. They ban most drugs.......yep, that one's workin real well too.

If you ban guns, then all you are ensuring is that the"bad guys" are the only ones that can get them.

We in America have what we call the "Second Amendment". Which cannot be ignored. It is written into the framework of our country that all citizens have the right to bear arms. Too many people blow off the constitution we have as though it doesn't really matter. These are the same people that raise the first amendment flag every chance they get. We can't ignore one and swear by the other. If there is a person that believes the second amendment should be repealed, then all they have to do is get 2/3 of the 50 states to agree. Good luck.

There is a fundemental right that gets overlooked in this debate. That is the right to protect yourself and your property. The founders believed in this very much. Each citizen must have the right to defend themself and their property against harm.

And always remember:


The first thing dictatorships always do is disarm the populus.


Freedom is not guaranteed.

Would there be less deaths and violence if guns were made illegal to own by anyone? Yeah, most likely. But there are countless things that could be banned that would make life safer for people, doesn't mean they should be:

Cars
Airplanes
Alcohol
Drugs (oh wait, we covered that success)
Tobacco
swimming pools
bathtubs
Electricity
Anything with a sharp point
boats
cold medicine
rope
lawn mowers
gasoline
batteries
any building with more than one story.
any one story building that is higher than 10ft
etc
etc
etc..............................And the list can go on and on and on


Freedom first, safety second.
Posted: Sat, 20th Sep 2003, 3:42pm

Post 31 of 212

Coldfuse

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blah blah blah blah. the stupid amendment.

I think in a place or time if anyone puts there mind to it anything can happen. You just need the right leader for it. everyone is going on like it is impossible.

But ey there was a russian revolution! and many thought man couldnt land on the moon (even though it is still very suspect and i use that point lossely)

Bassically, its not about the whole point weither it is safe or not. What i am talking about, was, what was the gun designed for. i mean we live in a religious world, very chrisitan and now muslim. i mean where in those context's does it say THOU SHALL HAVE A GUN TO BARE, FOR HIS OWN SAFTY. it doesnt. the amendment for me, is just a bunch of crap that allows people to as it were do wrong to them as they have to you.

yes i think i should have the right to deffend my self. But what many forget is that a gun is a serious weapon, designed to kill, what else for is it designed for turing the tv on? "EY PARR LOOK AT THIS I GOTT MEES ONE OF THOSE SHOOTING REMOTS"

i mean if you were then to disscuss about how it may be used say if u needed to catch food in the jungle or something. but then i would say WHAT THE HELL IS THE GUN DOING IN UR HOME THEN?

there is no right for a gun, in a populated siutation for deffence. its so HOLLWOOD and gun totting, i need to deffend my self i know ILL GET A GUN lol, what happend to pepper spray, or even some high duty electric stun gun. i mean there used for deffence and very very useful especially pepper spray. but they dont kill, like a gun can. one false move and u could be outta there. and even if u dont get hit in the head or the heart. i mean you can die of blood loose.

i feel sorry for america, that it had a bunch of thrown out, europian paraniod people. shoulda just left it to the nattives, woulda been such a nicer place! ey instead of shooting each other lets smoke the peace pipe (YUMMMM)
Posted: Sat, 20th Sep 2003, 5:27pm

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MechaForce

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The law isn't useless - since 1994 (when the laws were passed) gun related crime dropped each year, along with crime in general, which was also due in part to Clinton putting an additional 100,000 more police officers on the street as well.
Posted: Sat, 20th Sep 2003, 9:20pm

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sidewinder

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Mecha- Thanks, the background on the numbers help.

Now Coldfuse....

Shut Up. You're spewing idiocy.

If anything, this shows it:

i feel sorry for america, that it had a bunch of thrown out, europian paraniod people. shoulda just left it to the nattives, woulda been such a nicer place! ey instead of shooting each other lets smoke the peace pipe (YUMMMM)
I hope you live in England and not America, where such ignorance on national history and law isn't as threatening to our system of politics.
Posted: Sat, 20th Sep 2003, 10:14pm

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MechaForce

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Yah, that was pretty incoherent - coldfuse - you need need take into consideration the fact that people try to murder people, and sometimes, they will kill you if you don't kill them first.
Posted: Sat, 20th Sep 2003, 11:16pm

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Kid

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Shon Cobbs wrote:

"Its true that guns cause deaths and violence."



Actually, it is the people that are commiting the crimes that cause the deaths and violence. I can't recall any cases where a gun jumped up and fired itself, killing others. Usually there is a hand behind the action.
Yeah the thing is that guns make it much easier for the people to use them.
Addn for Douglas: than a knife (because using a knife/club/whatever on someone involves a lot more risk and effort)
Lots more heat of the moment killings are carried out in countries with high gun availability than those without. Not to mention it makes it easier for criminals and cold hearted killers.


Secondly in response to Sidewinder's comment. 'The stats' show that countries with low availability of guns DO have much lower violent crime. You have to be careful comparing here because a lot of lists have gun crime as a seperate category to non-gun violent crime. Now this may be like here in the UK where the low availability is due to stricter laws. OR it could be like in parts of Europe where guns simply arnt available because of society and gun laws are not required. The common factor is low gun availability.

Eg US Murder rate is 13 times that of the UK
Also Washington DC's murder rate is more than 30 times that of London's!
(That is per person so the difference in the number of people is already accounted for)

Last edited Sat, 20th Sep 2003, 11:38pm; edited 4 times in total.

Posted: Sat, 20th Sep 2003, 11:22pm

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4036Douglas

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"guns make it much easier for the people to use them"
uhh.... what?
Posted: Sat, 20th Sep 2003, 11:25pm

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Kid

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MechaForce wrote:

you need need take into consideration the fact that people try to murder people, and sometimes, they will kill you if you don't kill them first.
See this is where I think the pro gun people are mistaken. If someone has a gun they are most likely planning to threaten you with it rather than kill you with it. If you then whip out a gun 'for protection' then they are gonna use the above 'shoot them before they shoot me' thinking and go ahead and kill you.

The reason you are not leveling the playing field by having a gun as well is that the intruder/mugger/whatever is ready to shoot you whereas you are taken by surprise. And even after you decide you need to shoot them 'in self defence' they most likely have had a lot more practice than you!
Posted: Mon, 22nd Sep 2003, 3:34pm

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Coldfuse

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sidewinder wrote:

Mecha- Thanks, the background on the numbers help.

Now Coldfuse....

Shut Up. You're spewing idiocy.

If anything, this shows it:

i feel sorry for america, that it had a bunch of thrown out, europian paraniod people. shoulda just left it to the nattives, woulda been such a nicer place! ey instead of shooting each other lets smoke the peace pipe (YUMMMM)
I hope you live in England and not America, where such ignorance on national history and law isn't as threatening to our system of politics.
hmmm idiocy? does sidewinder even know how the hell america was inhabbited? hmmm i think u really need to look up in a history book, before you try and start flying around aligations
Posted: Mon, 22nd Sep 2003, 4:58pm

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MechaForce

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Do you even know how to spell "aligations"?

PS: He was saying YOU're ignorant about natural history and law, not England. The inhibition of America has nothing to do with this. Wtf.
Posted: Mon, 22nd Sep 2003, 8:52pm

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Coldfuse

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hmm again another American, why dont you point out where Morocco is out on a map huh!

First of all i know what he says saying DUUUUUUUUUH i think anyone can understand, just makes sense someone like you mis-understanding what was said.

Well seeing as u guys dont know here i go

*HISTORY LESSON*
in 1609 a group of pilgrims left england because of religious reasons (Persecution) to find the NEW LAND "who at the time lived in holland, and got scared because the children were speaking dutch, and thought hmm IT WILL RUIN THE OUR WAYS

Once inhabited the pilgrims then meet the nattives unluckly for them, everything seemed fine and dandy even the first thanks giving seemed nice. But then the pilgrims then killed off the inhabbits which were the nattives of the land (indians for all that dont understand)

Then in 1775, the pilgrims defeated the birtish, which then after the second amendment allowed each man to posses his own gun. (hmm seems rather fishy to me, like a on board army just incase someone tried to take over!)

and as they say the rest is history.

basically there u go, so dont start getting all cocky next time!
Posted: Mon, 22nd Sep 2003, 9:34pm

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MechaForce

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Morocco is in northern Africa. But you're right, lots of people are stupid, and I'd say at least 60% of people in the U.S. couldn't pick out Morocco on a map. That's why I'm so patronizing (many people have special needs).

Anyways.

And it's not a board army - it's technically defined as a militia, which is basically a group of citizens who keep arms in case of a war (like Switzerland - -), which at the time was very reasonable, because there had just been a war and the country was disorganized. It says that we have the right to bear arms in order to keep a well regulated militia in our consitution, but I do think that is a little outdated because we're not in a chaotic state like we were 200 years ago. It's not like today we need a militia, because we sure as hell don't, but banning guns here, right at this moment would make crime skyrocket, because tons of people already have guns and it'd be impossible to find them all and destroy them, and that all the law-abiding citizens would turn their weapons in, while the criminals would keep theirs.

The point is this: right now, where I live, guns are not a major problem, and the current laws are fine.

My other point is that you're not the smartest person here.
Posted: Mon, 22nd Sep 2003, 9:46pm

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cantaclaro

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I'm sure the pilgrims with their muskets and such were real nice to the native americans...wait...was that before they raped their women or after they enslaved them...oh wait I forgot...

Canta unsure
Posted: Mon, 22nd Sep 2003, 9:55pm

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cantaclaro

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One thing that I have noticed about the rest of the world is that...you are always ready to accuse somebody else of something...but refuse to look back on your own VIOLENT history...The US is only 227 years old...I suppose "Bloody Mary" didn't kill hundreds of thousands of innocent people...or that England didn't rape everybody the first chance they got...so did every other country in the world...Over the course of civilization there have been thousands of power shifts throughout Europe, Asia, and Africa and now that there is a new kid on the block y'all want to bitch and moan...I think that for being so young the US is pretty mature compared to you babies...

Canta unsure
Posted: Mon, 22nd Sep 2003, 10:19pm

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Coldfuse

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i was waiting untill someone would bring up this point. yes you are right, and at what point did i say we havent? The difference is we gave back the rights, and we dont do it anymore. We may have slaughtered loads, especally in india.

I mean we had the biggest empire at the time, of all time. But in recent years we have given back the peoples power, very recently hong kong.

If we look at jamacia, a very fond country of mine, it was given back its power. as soon as the empire left, the whole country feel staright into the debt trap couldnt hanndle it. American companies would out sell the countries top economic, buissness, like milk for instance, or Bannanas

If anything back a while ago America would see the great place, the place of dreams and hopes. what everyone is starting to find out. Is its not as pretty as it may have seen.

We have learnt from our mistakes and at this point, we are talking about guns here, which isnt as big a problem here then it is in america.

To mecha, no i dont think i am the smartest here, and where have i said that. i was only making a point to sidewinder, that i was saying i would have rather of lived with the nattives then the pilgrims. simple as. to which i was told i was stupid hmmm.

and yes i know what a militia is, i was explaining it quickly, and yest swizterland does have its own, as it has service. which the people are trained to be able to protect there country. My uncle is from swizterland!
Posted: Mon, 22nd Sep 2003, 10:35pm

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cantaclaro

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Oh so you get a freaking pat on the back because you saw the error of your ways 1100 years into your history and hundreds of millions of lives later...I think not...the US has never started a world war(Germany WWI,WWII)...the US has never asked for anyone else's help to fend off some stupid Nazi's(Every country)...the US has never had an entire army ready for fighting only to surrender to some homo with a Charlie Chaplin mustache and a fixation for molesting 9 year olds(France...bonjour this!!!)...The United States has been there for every country that need our help (USUALLY WITH OUR GUNS) and now everyone turns around and acts like all of those honorable deeds were committed in vain...I think not...We decide to go after something...after all that we have done and Germany and France think that they have the right to say anything...And don't even get me started on the UN...Larry Miller "They couldn't break up a cookie fight at a brownie meeting."

Canta unsure
Posted: Mon, 22nd Sep 2003, 10:42pm

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Sollthar

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http://www.north-america.de/index1.htm?gewaltusa.htm&2
here was a site with statistics from 2000 I could find.

They are a comparison between England and USA, crimerates are per 100'000 people:


Total Crimes: USA: 4,578 / England: 8,537
Murder: USA: 6 / England: 1
Violence: USA: 562 / England: 632
burglary: USA: 855 / England: 901
Car theft: USA: 455 / England: 745
Droguse: USA: 14 / England: 41
Rape: USA: 34 / England: 14
other sexual crimes: USA: 49 / England: 52


So as you see, you're chance of being burgled or that your car gets stolen is higher in England, about 1,3 times. Your chance of being killed is 6 times higher in the USA.
Posted: Mon, 22nd Sep 2003, 10:56pm

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Kid

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Hehe I love the way Americans get to the fighting off the British part when they tell the history and totally overlook the fact that they were British. Also you seemed to have glossed over the French and Spanish and the natives running around scalping people razz

Just remember if it wasn't for the British you'd all be speaking French!

Anyway the point isn't the history. The point is that this is now and guns are designed to kill people with. Modern society does not need them.

Americans should be more worried about things like the DMCA taking away their rights than gun control laws. Over here we do not have freedom of speech in law but we are not the ones paranoid about secret goverment depts and covert surveillance all the time smile We also do not have the right to bear arms but again I don't need a gun for protection.
Posted: Mon, 22nd Sep 2003, 11:17pm

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Coldfuse

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First of all ur America, was inhabbited by US ENGLISH, second of all no we didnt ask for you're help. You only really joined the war because of pearl harbour. the fact the japanese bombed the place to shreds u werent exactly gun hoe to help out.

We didnt exaclty ask for you in world war 1 now did we?
You dont start wars you say hmmm

Yes world war started because of a personal thing between the england and germany (seeing as they were realated)

But in world war two that was a different story. yes America did help out in the WORLD WAR but then again so did many others, for the chance to live a whole and prospers life. That was then. this now. we are talking about if citizens should be able to hold guns to protect them selfs.

Basically what kid said in this post
Hehe I love the way Americans get to the fighting off the British part when they tell the history and totally overlook the fact that they were British. Also you seemed to have glossed over the French and Spanish and the natives running around scalping people

Just remember if it wasn't for the British you'd all be speaking French!

Anyway the point isn't the history. The point is that this is now and guns are designed to kill people with. Modern society does not need them.
Posted: Mon, 22nd Sep 2003, 11:25pm

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Coldfuse

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oh yeah about the whole un thing, it has been believed, and i say believed, that the UN is as they say a puppet on a string for the Free masions. Now i heard this along time ago, to which was on the radio, before iraq.

To which was said that the free maisons, who the bush contengence are with!, basically use them as a means to do there dirty work, alot so far has been with muslim faiths. so what can u say a little spooky huh

and oh yea sollthar, isnt that page a bit biast seeing as its an american 'WE LOVE YOU SO MUCH' site i would rather believe figures that are neutral then from a 'seemed' biast site
Posted: Mon, 22nd Sep 2003, 11:31pm

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Kid

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Well I don't know how we suddenly got to WW2 but the Americans wouldn't help when we asked because they didnt think it was worth their while and were worried about the financial cost. They only started helping when some German uboats popped up in one of the US harbours and attacked some ships. I forget which harbour it was (nothing at all to do with Pearl Harbour). That is why they now have the detection network around the coasts of the US. It didn't have anything to do with the Japanese.

A lot of americans seem to think we won the war because they dropped the bomb on Japan. This isnt the case at all. Its also something for the US to be highly ashamed of, especially as they did it again when once was more than enough.
Posted: Tue, 23rd Sep 2003, 12:08am

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Sollthar

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and oh yea sollthar, isnt that page a bit biast seeing as its an american 'WE LOVE YOU SO MUCH' site i would rather believe figures that are neutral then from a 'seemed' biast site
it was just the first thing I could find. Still the murder statistics speak for themselves really...


Fact is, the USA has the highest murder-rate. You can check that in any book that deals with numbers.
Posted: Tue, 23rd Sep 2003, 1:22am

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sidewinder

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Coldfuse, I think you're just trying to piss people off. I think you're trying to be as offensive as possible to start arguements. Am I worng?

Kid:

We were brought into the European part of the war when the Germans started torpedoeing American civilian ships in European waters. We were selling arms to the allied forces, and this was the instigation for the Germans to attack. Of course, we then brought our military into it, which was the final step needed to topple the Nazis. Some could argue that FDR kept the merchant ships going after the Germans threatened them in order to sway American opinion towards military action.

And you can't blame Americans for wanting to stay out of the war...

And as for Japan, they wouldn't surrender to our requirements, so we had the choice of an actual land invasion, or a nuculear attack. If you think about the lives that would of been lost in a land invasion compared to the nuculear attack, the latter option is the better. And, of course, we didn't lose a single American life, which, ultimately is one of the main goals of war.

You could argue whether or not that final step was necessary, but then you have to consider the differences between partial defeat and total defeat. A good example of this would be the Iraq war. We had a partial defeat at first, and a total defeat now. more time is needed to see which will be more benificial. Personally I think total defeat is ultimately best.

Now please, let's not get into the Iraq war, as Coldfuse would like us to...But you can't deny that technically, according to treaties and international law, we were in fact finishing the war started under the first Bush, rather than starting a whole new war.
Posted: Tue, 23rd Sep 2003, 1:28am

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Kid

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sidewinder wrote:

But you can't deny that technically, according to treaties and international law, we were in fact finishing the war started under the first Bush, rather than starting a whole new war.
This is true, although I think it would have been better if we had finished off what we started the first time. A lot of the problems now are cos the Iraqi people rose up and then we didn't help them. Plus we had many more casualties cos Saddam learnt from last time and actually hid his troops rather than running them about in the open like before.
Posted: Tue, 23rd Sep 2003, 1:36am

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sidewinder

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I agree that we should've finished it the first time. The question is, would many of those saying that now, like you, say it back then?

Also, I'd say 100 casualties from a war is incredibly low. the deathrate among US troops in Iraq is actually lower than the number of gun deaths in America. Looks like we should withdraw Americans from America....

But hey, back to the gun debate. You say we don't need to worry about violence in modern society. I disagree.
Posted: Tue, 23rd Sep 2003, 1:52am

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Kid

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NO, I say we should worry about violence and thats why people shouldn't have guns!
Posted: Tue, 23rd Sep 2003, 1:59am

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sidewinder

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GUNS DON'T CAUSE VIOLENCE!
Posted: Tue, 23rd Sep 2003, 2:01am

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Hajiku_Flip

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sidewinder wrote:

The deathrate among US troops in Iraq is actually lower than the number of gun deaths in America. Looks like we should withdraw Americans from America....
Posted: Tue, 23rd Sep 2003, 2:27am

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sidewinder

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yeah, I know. What's your point? I've never denied that people aren't killed by guns...

The stat I'm refferring to is the total number of gun deaths, ranging from police action and self-defense to gang wars and murders.

Also, murderers here do in fact use guns more often than not. I also won't deny that. It's just that some of you think that making guns illegal will decrease murders and crime. that's what this debate is about.
Posted: Tue, 23rd Sep 2003, 2:28am

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MechaForce

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sidewinder wrote:

GUNS DON'T CAUSE VIOLENCE!
What does?
Posted: Tue, 23rd Sep 2003, 2:29am

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Hajiku_Flip

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sidewinder wrote:

yeah, I know. What's your point? I've never denied that people aren't killed by guns...

I'm not arguing, I'm agreeing. wink
Posted: Tue, 23rd Sep 2003, 2:43am

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sidewinder

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Rating: +1

If only I could hear the tone of your voice... wink


What causes violence?

People! Punish 'em if they commit a crime (none of this victimization and handslapping bullcrap), and tell them that if they try any of that violence business on you, you might blow them away. That's why crime falls when gun ownership increases.
Posted: Tue, 23rd Sep 2003, 5:00am

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scobbs

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sidewinder wrote:

If only I could hear the tone of your voice... wink


What causes violence?

People! Punish 'em if they commit a crime (none of this victimization and handslapping bullcrap), and tell them that if they try any of that violence business on you, you might blow them away. That's why crime falls when gun ownership increases.
A +1 to that! Sidey just hit the nail on the head. The problem in America is not guns or drugs or gangs. It's our absurd courts! We have fallen into this mindless feelgood everybody is a victim feel sorry for me crap nation that we can't even put a criminal away proper!

Guns don't cause crime. People do. And when they do, and we catch them, we just let lem go time after time after time.

That my friends is the problem.



If you want change, then find some way to hold accountable these absurd judges that are taking over the country.
Posted: Tue, 23rd Sep 2003, 7:47am

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b4uask30male

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On the note about punishment, I'd love to know what you think of my idea.

I call it payback.
eg: A robber ( or bad guy ) shoots someone in the arm ( not dead but bad enough ) then the justice system will find him guilty and do the same to him.

or another example, a rapest, cut his thingy off.

A speeding car knocks someone over, the same will happen to them in a controlled setting.

NOW I know this sounds harsh, but think, if you knew that what ever crime you done was going to happen back to you, there is no way you would do the crime in the first place.

any thoughts ?
Posted: Tue, 23rd Sep 2003, 8:16am

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cantaclaro

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But Kid you forgot that I was never English...yall and the Spaniard brought my black ass over from Africa to build the US...Oh and as for giving back all of the power to the people...what the hell are yall still doing in South Africa...91% African...I guess those diamonds and gold were calling yall a bit too much huh...

So back to the gun debate...So does anyone have an idea on how to get the guns out of criminal hands? because that is what this debate really boils down to...As Iceman said criminals won't care if guns are outlawed they're CRIMINALS...Chris Rock, a comedian here in the States, said that we should make bullets more expensive...that way there would be no innocent bystanders...because if a bullet cost $5000 you would be sure not to miss...

Canta unsure
Posted: Tue, 23rd Sep 2003, 12:00pm

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sidewinder

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B4, that's a good idea, but now we're going to have all the peaceniks quoting Ghandi saying "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" over and over!

Another idea would be to bring all the inmates out to Arizona, give 'em the building materials for their shacks, and have a meal for them once a day. then, set up guard on a perimeter, and if an inmate tries to get across, he will be shot. Otherwise, they can do whatever they please in their "town".

very few people would want to go back to prison...
Posted: Tue, 23rd Sep 2003, 12:20pm

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cantaclaro

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That was a movie with Ray Liotta, called No Escape...pretty good, the only difference is that they stuck them on a island, the prisoners broke into 2 groups...the rapest and murders, and the white collar crime offenders...

First hippy to say something about Ghandi gets punched in the mouth...

Canta unsure
Posted: Tue, 23rd Sep 2003, 2:20pm

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Kid

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cantaclaro wrote:

what the hell are yall still doing in South Africa...91% African...I guess those diamonds and gold were calling yall a bit too much huh...
That's the Dutch not English, that's why they speak with such a funny accent.

Sidey, as gun ownership goes up the crime figures go up though! Gun ownership over there is going down atm and crime figures are going down. Also you say its the courts being to lenient but you have the death penalty in some states (which we dont have) and yet they still have much higher murder rates.

Take Texas for example, prolly the place with the most guns about and they have the death sentance so according to your logic they should have the lowest murder rate. What a surprise, they don't!
Posted: Tue, 23rd Sep 2003, 5:15pm

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Riese

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Kid

Now you are talking about something that you truely dont understand. Yes we have the death penalty, but it is not used in the way it was designed to be used. In the US we are over riden with Political Correctness. In many states here in the US it no longer matters what the people vote. All it takes is a Judge who thinks that it is duty to over look the peoples will just becuase it goes agianst his agenda. So the gun problem really should not be a problem, if we would just inforce the laws we have, everything would be ok.

Riese
Posted: Tue, 23rd Sep 2003, 5:18pm

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Kid

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But the stats are for murders commited not murders punished. So if a judge might let you off is not as relevant as you are making out. I doubt people will gamble on the fact that they might be let off when they commit a crime. They think more about how likely they are to be caught.
Posted: Tue, 23rd Sep 2003, 6:51pm

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Coldfuse

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first of all, what the hell is sidewinder on about. Offensive? ive been trying to discuss this gun debate. And thats what i am doing. i answer all that people reply. IF ANYTHING you have been offensive to me calling me ignorant, and stupid way before i have said anything to you. so be quiet and hush it and talk about the debate!

Right.. Guns now i think people are so missing the point here. its funny how poeple are just ironicly contradicting themselfs. I mean people, (especially people who have a problem with moi) say that oh a criminal will do ANYTHING and ANYTHING to take you're stuff or commit a crime. so dont you think that a criminal WILL STEAL A GUN? ESPEICALLY from someone who might be holding it to protect themselfs if you dont have a gun then what is there for them to steal? Actually the point being is that most criminals ARENT as self soficient as you think. they are only able to get ghuns because its easy for anyone. I mean the real criminals that will do ANYTHING are people who are robbing worldwide banks, planning out how certains codes will eb broken. the local criminal will find what he can, and if he cant. just give up cos hes lazy.

I am against the way of death row to tell the truth. i dont think we should act on revenge like many MONSTERS do. i would rather not be held responsible for someone who has allowed to take someone elses life. as to me i will be commiting murder. and im just as bad as that person.

I think its better how now america is starting to turn, on death row, one problem there is, especially over here that prisions are too easy. they have a pool table, able to watch tv if u have commited something against the law, which is pretty damn offensive. you shouldnt have what people on the outside have.
Posted: Tue, 23rd Sep 2003, 8:44pm

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sidewinder

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Coldfuse, I assumed you were trying to start a flame war because of the sheer fallacy of what you said!

-

Your idea of the history of the United States is completely wrong.

Your idea that criminals would try and steal a gun from someone pointing it at them is wrong (it never happens! looks at the facts.)

You think we should ban all guns, which is both stupid and unrealistic.

You think the Constitution holds no bearing on US law

You believe that "if anyone puts there mind to it anything can happen", which makes me wonder about your sense of reality.

You believe that the moon landing is very "suspect".

You think we live in a religious muslim world.

If someone actually were in a situation where they needed to protect their lives, you still don't think they should be able to use a gun. Makes me wonder what you think the police should do...

You think the "natives" were peaceful before the Europeans arrived.

You think people carry pistols because they think it's "hollywood".

You make stereotypical (if not racist) comments about Americans.

You think it was the "pilgrims" that defeated the British.

You think the revolutionary war ended in 1775, when in fact, it ended in 1783.

Your view of World War history is wrong as well.

You give credibility to the idea that the FreeMasons (a secret society, for those of you wondering) control the UN and the Bush family.

You equate the value of the lives of murderers to the lives of innocent victims by saying that killing a murderer is the same as killing random people off the street.

You don't proofread your posts.

-


...And that is why I fail to see intelligence in your writing.
Posted: Tue, 23rd Sep 2003, 9:00pm

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Kid

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sidewinder wrote:

Your idea that criminals would try and steal a gun from someone pointing it at them is wrong (it never happens! looks at the facts.)

You think we should ban all guns, which is both stupid and unrealistic.
Despite the fact that you were ranting at coldfuse who I have to agree has comeout with some daft things, you state these things as fact when they are not.

Banning guns certainly isnt stupid, it is quite sensible and would be possible if Americans wern't so touchy about their rights even though they let their government get away with all sorts of things which encroach on them much more than gun control.

Secondly coldfuse does have a point about criminals stealing guns. They arnt going to go down the shop and buy a gun which can be traced, they are gonna go steal one or buy one on the black market which has been stolen. Making guns less available for the general public makes them less available for criminals and the sort of criminals who can still get them are not the sort that are gonna be breaking into your house that you need to protect yourself from.

PS Why don't you try and hold back from saying 'look at the facts' since all the facts/stats are against you. It is only by twisted logic that you can present a case at all.
Posted: Tue, 23rd Sep 2003, 9:19pm

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sidewinder

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Banning ALL guns is most certainly stupidity. Do you advocate the banning of muzzle-loaders? How about guns used by security and police?

Now, I would contend that banning guns in general is also stupid, but that's why we're having this debate...

When Coldfuse was talking about stealing guns, he was talking about them stealing guns from people trying to defend themselves. For example, Joe Schmoe pulls a knife and tells me to give him my DV camera. I pull out a pistol from the camera bag and aim it at him. According to Coldfuse, Joe Schmoe then will steal my gun. Let's gloss over the fact that he would likely run away or be shot before he can somehow take my gun from me. If you look at the figures, criminals don't steal the guns brandished by potential victims.


the sort of criminals who can still get them are not the sort that are gonna be breaking into your house that you need to protect yourself from.
Um...are you saying that we don't need to defend ourselves from certain criminals? We should just let them walk around the house unharassed?

And prove to me that it becomes difficult to obtain weapons when they are illegal. I say you're wrong.

Why don't you try and hold back from saying 'look at the facts' since all the facts/stats are against you. It is only by twisted logic that you can present a case at all.
It's by incomplete logic that you arrive at your conclusions! Don't tell me not to distort the facts when time after time, crime decreases when gun ownership INCREASES. Not the other way around, like you said. I want to see your numbers.

Numbers!

Your quote works better against your case than it does mine!


Please tell me why I shouldn't be able to own a pistol. Just me, and not America in general. Why should Niko Pueringer not be allowed to own a hundgun?
Posted: Tue, 23rd Sep 2003, 9:33pm

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Kid

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We HAVE shown you numbers. You keep stating that crime decrease when gun ownership increases but the figures say the exact opposite!

Also you think its stupid to ban all guns!?! That is just because you have been brainwashed. Why is that stupid? Our police dont have guns. We have special units with guns who are called out in response to criminals with guns, it is that rare.

Why should you specifically not have a gun? Well because you dont need one for protection. If you carry it and pull it you are gonna force a criminal with a gun to shoot you. If you keep it safe at home you are not likely to be able to get to it before a burgular gets you. A criminal cant steal your gun and then use it on other people. Also a criminal cant go and get a gun from a shop because the shop doesnt need to exist so that you can get a gun.

This makes guns on the street much more expensive to get hold of because they have to be imported and your average criminal doesn't have one.

You are now much safer because the burgular who enters the house isn't armed and is likely to simply run off when disturbed rather than shoot you and then take your stuff. This is the situation we have here.

(Oh I also have to mention, since we keep mentioning burgulary. More than 90% of burgularies here are done while everyone is out so you wouldnt be there to protect your stuff with your gun.)

I think part of the problem is that every American thinks they are a hero. They seem to think that if someone held them at gunpoint and asked for their stuff they could just pull a gun and shoot their way out like in the movies. In reality they would go for their gun and be shot. It would be far to sensible to hand over the measly $20 or whatever that is in their wallet rather than risk their life over it.
Posted: Tue, 23rd Sep 2003, 11:26pm

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sfbmovieco

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Coldfuse, your stupidity about America and its history hurts me deeply. I have taken a liking to the history of my country along with the study of it. So for you to spew misconceptions and your ignorant biases about what you obviously do not know, not only hurt my feelings but are insults to people of my country. I hope that you are able to realize the error in your ways. Because we will probably always disagree about gun control, which is fine. I'm not here to change your mind. So we can talk about opinions all day; but don't make blanket and obviously false statements about America when you do not know a thing about the history of it. So before you type out a response to this and click the submit button, make sure your little brother or sister can even understand it first. Have them give it a quick look through why don't you. And while they are doing that...Chew on this for awhile....

You want to ban guns?

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws."
- Plato (427-347 B.C.)

If you ban guns, the evil people of this world will ALWAYS have guns; this will leave the good people with no defense...

Try and make another American History comment without flubbing it up next time.
Posted: Tue, 23rd Sep 2003, 11:29pm

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Cypher

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Hmm...i dont know if this has been said, but Crack/Heroine/Meth etc are extremely illegal...but it's really not the hard to get your hands on it, on either side of the border....
Posted: Tue, 23rd Sep 2003, 11:30pm

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Kid

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Do you notice how the pro gun people come out with quotes and statements of 'logic' whereas the anti gun people provide cold, hard facts which the pro gun people choose to simply ignore rather than respond to?
Posted: Tue, 23rd Sep 2003, 11:32pm

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sfbmovieco

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No, I don't know what facts I've overlooked...But I do know that it seems the anti-gun people overlook and do not respond to the logic that the pro gun people put out there.
Posted: Tue, 23rd Sep 2003, 11:35pm

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Coldfuse

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i see that very much.

And second of all, i would like to know exactly what part of the american history i have gotten wrong? i think if U look into a history book that is unbiast you will see the cold hard facts. i have researched my facts, not only using american sites to reforce my knowledge of this. So before you start saying how i dont know nothing why dont you check UR self out please.
Posted: Tue, 23rd Sep 2003, 11:35pm

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Coldfuse

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ahem ..... now thats just blind side. please take a cold hard look at the posts please
Posted: Tue, 23rd Sep 2003, 11:37pm

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Kid

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sfbmovieco wrote:

No, I don't know what facts I've overlooked...But I do know that it seems the anti-gun people overlook and do not respond to the logic that the pro gun people put out there.
The problem is that the logic does seem sensible and I would believe it if the facts didn't say otherwise. However the facts do say otherwise and so the logic must be wrong.
Posted: Tue, 23rd Sep 2003, 11:38pm

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4036Douglas

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Kid wrote:

Our police dont have guns. We have special units with guns who are called out in response to criminals with guns, it is that rare.
hmm... thats kinda strange. all police over here carry pistols. even the police officers (such as to teach us about "how to say "no" to drugs") that come into school. they carry guns, right in plain sight. thats interesting.
Posted: Tue, 23rd Sep 2003, 11:39pm

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Kid

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Cypher wrote:

Hmm...i dont know if this has been said, but Crack/Heroine/Meth etc are extremely illegal...but it's really not the hard to get your hands on it, on either side of the border....
Because the criminals are so hard to deal with because of their weaponry! razz
Posted: Tue, 23rd Sep 2003, 11:40pm

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Coldfuse

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Oh yes and in reply to cypher, yes there is a very big drug problem. something i know too well about. But it wont stop or decrease unfortuntly untill certain econmic structures can sort it self out.

(facts get a little hazy here)

But basically, about 2 tones of herione was sent towards the uk, i think it was last year, from if im right,(really thinking hard now) some country in iraq crazy i so need to check up on exactly the amount and the country. but basically the selling it is the only way for the country to get money. so instead of it being an illegal thing its the only way they can support themselfs. If there was a debt uplift, then that country wouldnt have to pay off, meaning there could be an other route to making money.
Posted: Tue, 23rd Sep 2003, 11:40pm

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Kid

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4036Douglas wrote:

Kid wrote:

Our police dont have guns. We have special units with guns who are called out in response to criminals with guns, it is that rare.
hmm... thats kinda strange. all police over here carry pistols. even the police officers (such as to teach us about "how to say "no" to drugs") that come into school. they carry guns, right in plain sight. thats interesting.
Ours carry batons and these asp things that are a bit like car aerials only stronger.
Posted: Tue, 23rd Sep 2003, 11:42pm

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sfbmovieco

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Okay, I don't even care about the gun control issue anymore. This is more about incorrect history. Well for starters, you said the pilgrims defeated the UK, and that the pilgrims were mostly Dutch. Where are you wrong? How about everywhere? I have taken AP US History, and although that does not make me too much superior to anyone who reads the daily paper, I do see that you are just plain wrong. And if you knew your facts, many of the first pilgrims that came in the 1500's and 1600's died in their first establishments due to disease and famine...And Kid, all your doing is using word games, mixing facts and logic, blah blah blah. All I know is, is that if my gun gets taken away then the bad guy on the street will still be able to get one from somewhere and be able to commit crimes. Because when the government comes around collecting guns, is he going to hand his over? I doubt it.

Last edited Tue, 23rd Sep 2003, 11:45pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Tue, 23rd Sep 2003, 11:44pm

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Cypher

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I personally think there should be stronger control on who is able to have a firearm and rules on where they are allowed to be, but I think banning guns is extremely foolish. Screw the numbers, did you know that 3 out of 4 people make 75% of the population? exactly, numbers dont necessarily have to be right. I'm not pro-gun, nor am I anti-gun...i just believe that banning weapons is foolish, and vice versa, having them extremely easily "legally" accessible is also foolish.
Posted: Tue, 23rd Sep 2003, 11:47pm

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Coldfuse

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first of all i didnt say the pilgrims were dutch, i said there kids were growing up talkign dutch which they didnt like, because it was runing the ways, infact the pilgrims were english and found freedom in holland were they actually, were able to live there religious life. so thats one point

And hmm seeing as the pilgrims inhabbited the island in what 1609, they would have been on the land on 1775, u fool, which in that time the biritsh was defeated. so what are u on about
Posted: Tue, 23rd Sep 2003, 11:48pm

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Kid

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Firstly coldfuse said the Pilgrims came from Holland, not that they were Dutch. He said they didn't want to settle in Holland because they didn't want their children to speak dutch.

Secondly the criminals wont still have guns because they will become harder and harder to get hold of and then enforcment agencies can spend their resources dealing with the big guys rather than every little crook who can pick one up anywhere. Our average criminals don't walk around with guns.

Thirdly. Figures can be manipulated but only to a certain extent. Dismissing any sort of stat in favour of flawed logic is crazy! The stats show quite plainly that there are 6 murders in the US per person for every 1 in the UK. They also show that there are a whopping 150 gun murders in the US for every 1 in the UK (per person).

Last edited Tue, 23rd Sep 2003, 11:53pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Tue, 23rd Sep 2003, 11:50pm

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Coldfuse

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By cypher, even though a valid point, its like saying for instance, i thought this was a very good point made by my muslim friend.

"even though drinking alcohol might be what everyone does, doesnt make it right in my religion"

what im saying is just because it might be public, COMFORT as it was, what makes it right for someone to own a gun to be able to point at me. i mean think of it this way. ANY one could eb a criminal. i mean one day i could become a criminal. And so u have a gun that can be used, against me. and the only way im going to counter that is with another gun? na sorry, thats foolish. when theres a stand off, i would rather not have that 50-50 chance of being shot.
Posted: Tue, 23rd Sep 2003, 11:52pm

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sfbmovieco

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My point is that you made a blanket statement, calling everyone in America (which was not America until 1783, not 1775 you idiot) a pilgrim. Americans, even by 1775 were very diverse, having many different European groups within its bounds. In fact, the constitution was not even formalized until I believe 1789...In 1783, the Articles of Confederation was what was running the country. However, the Articles gave too little power to the central government; this is also why the bill of rights was enacted...In exchange for the constitution being much more central government based, the first ten ammendments to the constitution were put in (due to requests by the democrat-republicans, now known just as the democrats) to protect the rights of the individual person, which are now known as the Bill of Rights. And if you had your history correct, at the time of the writing of the Declaration of Independance (1776), the country was divided into three parts; 1/3 in favor of splitting with Britian, 1/3 unsure and 1/3 staying with the mother country. So when you say the pilgrims defeated the British in 1775, you are wrong...You are wrong on so many levels!
Posted: Tue, 23rd Sep 2003, 11:56pm

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Coldfuse

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how am i wrong? lol haha at what point did i say that it was called america im sure i stated i called it the NEW LAND. and second of all u say was a diverse europiean collony, hmm may that be from the europiean pilgrims aswell?

For goodness sake, i mean comeon. saying the pilgrims defeated the english, isnt exactly wrong now is it.
Posted: Tue, 23rd Sep 2003, 11:57pm

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Kid

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Does it really matter if he got the date wrong? He has the right general idea.
Posted: Tue, 23rd Sep 2003, 11:59pm

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sfbmovieco

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Alright I'm done with this topic. There's no winning with you, and when you're wrong, you won't admit it. Oh well. OUT


P.S. I suggest you work on your grammar. No one understands your point(s).


And yes it does matter. Because dates are important. The "general idea" is very useless. If my boss wanted me to get something done on a certain date, and I turned it in a week late....Can I say, well hey boss, it's the same year and month, give me a break...There's that faulty logic again...

I'm OUT
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 12:02am

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Coldfuse

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admit that im wrong? every piece of text i have got from has been from an american researched texts. so im wrong huh

i just think ur one of these people that wont give up. and try to bring every bit to detail. ok maybe the pilgrim part of defeating the english might have been a little to wide spread. but then it wasnt wrong now was it? everything else i have asnwered u with
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 12:09am

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Coldfuse

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ok one way of getting this sorted would be watching this, which is very brief

http://www.bowlingforcolumbine.com/media/clips/windowsmedia.php?Clip=cartoon1021MD
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 12:10am

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Cypher

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coldfuse, i'm sorry but it's becoming difficult to go through your posts and pull out logical sentences. your spelling doesnt' help, but i'm not one to complain, i dont care too much, but the grammar is all over the place. so unfortunatley i cant respond because i dont have time to see what your saying because then you'll just change it from one thing and go "i really meant...blahblahblah".

carney, it woulda been much funnier if you ended with

PEACE OUT
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 12:12am

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Kid

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sfbmovieco wrote:

Alright I'm done with this topic. There's no winning with you, and when you're wrong, you won't admit it. Oh well. OUT

And yes it does matter. Because dates are important. The "general idea" is very useless. If my boss wanted me to get something done on a certain date, and I turned it in a week late....Can I say, well hey boss, it's the same year and month, give me a break...There's that faulty logic again...
Yeah on checking up he got the date right as well so what are you complaining about? They started fighting off the British in 1775 and signed the declaration in 1776.

This is supposed to be a gun control thread anyway not a US history thread. It is YOU who will not admit they are WRONG in the face of numerous FACTS. It is YOU who uses FAULTY LOGIC to try and ignore those FACTS simply because you are too closed minded to imagine how it might be better without criminals running around with guns. Not to mention, it is YOU who sidelined it into a history debate to avoid the fact that you have no response to the FACTS.

Last edited Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 12:20am; edited 2 times in total.

Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 12:15am

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Coldfuse

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thank you very much. Now again like i have stressed earlier lets keep to gun control. Because i think this is a very debated post with alot of opinions which i would like to state.

i think it starts going into a bit of a tangent when people start to call people names, and then start going on about history and so. i think doug has actually made a good post, which was well worth coming. i meaning there were posts which were just not compeling people. Now this is something that has grabbed us all
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 12:17am

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Cypher

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Kid: sure, whatever you say...all listen to kid.... tard

Coldfuse: that clip was pretty funny bullshit, especially with a few contradictions of itself in there through animation. and i can't believe that you could have possibly though that a little clip would get all of that sorted. the only way it would get sorted is if the whole thing was completely unbiased fact (which it wasn't) and i dont think you can have a good debate with someone who pushes an argument over to animated clip...
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 12:20am

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sidewinder

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THE WAR STARTED IN 1775 AND ENDED IN 1783! COLDFUSE, YOU ARE WRONG!

FLAT OUT WRONG!



Kid, same to you... razz

http://www.multied.com/revolt/Paris.html

http://www.multied.com/revolt/Lexington.html
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 12:23am

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sfbmovieco

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The declaration was not a peace treaty. It was a declaration (made by probably only 1/3 of the population) declaring King George and unfit ruler, so on and so forth...Your an idiot.
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 12:24am

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Kid

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Bah, I knew you'd jump on that. I reworded it to sound more like I meant and less like what it sounded like I meant. razz (and I did it before I even read your post)

Plus to you sfbmovieco I never said anything like it was a peace treaty, you assumed that.

Last edited Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 12:27am; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 12:26am

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Coldfuse

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ok so the war may have started in 1775, ok that date may have been wrong.

But to the other post, u are telling me that, animation is wrong? well first of all it is from an american, who im telling you. if he was ever wrong with dates and so on would get slaughtered. I just think its ur own judgment of what u want to believe. you being an american and all. maybe you dont want to understand what happend in life. fair enough. but you cannot say it is alod of bullshit, because im sorry everything said there happend
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 12:26am

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sidewinder

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heh.

But the real issue at stake here is how wrong Coldfuse was. oink
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 12:28am

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sidewinder

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MY GOD! IT'S ALL CLEAR!

Coldfuse is taking everything said in Bowling For Columbine as cold hard fact!
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 12:30am

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Coldfuse

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no im not taking everything said by bowling as cold hard facts, but it does more of a job then what you are saying and providing. i was showing some of the facts that i have got some research from
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 12:32am

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Cypher

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Coldfuse wrote:

But to the other post, u are telling me that, animation is wrong? well first of all it is from an american, who im telling you. if he was ever wrong with dates and so on would get slaughtered. I just think its ur own judgment of what u want to believe. you being an american and all. maybe you dont want to understand what happend in life. fair enough. but you cannot say it is alod of bullshit, because im sorry everything said there happend
Exactly what i mean...some of those "sentences" are just words with no meaning...and who are you talking to???? You said animation thing...that's to me, then the next sentence something about dates...i hope not to me cuz i dont care for that. the being american thing...also not to me, i'm not american, i wasn't even born on this continent.

i havent seen bowling for columbine, but with that animation clip reference, it seems you're right, sidey.

oh, and yes coldfuse, i know most of what i saw did happen...but i'll bet your left arm that that's not HOW it happened...ie the circumstances.
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 12:35am

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Coldfuse

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lol i think u take the whole thing a little too seriously ur self. which i find funny.

i mean its a animation which is taking the piss out of america, by an american, stating facts in a hilarious way (shakes head)
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 12:37am

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Cypher

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actually no, i'm just getting a kick out of your um <INSERT BAD ADJECTIVE ABOUT COLDFUSE HERE, USE YOUR IMAGINATION>. The whole gun thing in the states doesn't affect me...if i need something, i can figure out a way to get it hide it well wink

oh, and that clip is stating facts, but its jumping all over the place trying to confuse the viewer like yourself to go "well this little clip shows me that's HOW it happened so it MUST have happened exactly under those circumstances in that way"
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 12:38am

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Coldfuse

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oh yes sidewinder, here is another place of refrence i got some dates from and on on just to reinforce what i know.

http://www.holidays.net/thanksgiving/pilgrims.htm
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 12:39am

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Coldfuse

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jumping about, haha see, now u are starting to act a little foolish, first of all u are acting like i know nothing about history (which is a very dangrious thing to do my friend in a debate like this) and second of all what dont u understand about brief?

i think its all very easy to understand my self. and very easy to understant. like it goes through from the pilgrims, to the decleration to slavery to the whole bus boicot event. nothing to hard to understand

Last edited Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 12:42am; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 12:40am

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Kid

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This is my piece of reference

http://www.jibjab.com/default.asp?mode=link&link=cartoons/raps/rp_movie01.htm
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 12:46am

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Hajiku_Flip

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Coldfuse wrote:

i think its all very easy to understand my self. and very easy to understant. like it goes through from the pilgrims, to the decleration to slavery to the whole bus boicot event. nothing to hard to understand
Maybe if you used correct punctuation and wrote like a more educated person, people would give you more credibility on the matter wink
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 12:49am

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Cypher

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Coldfuse wrote:

jumping about, haha see, now u are starting to act a little foolish, first of all u are acting like i know nothing about history (which is a very dangrious thing to do my friend in a debate like this) and second of all what dont u understand about brief?

i think its all very easy to understand my self. and very easy to understant. like it goes through from the pilgrims, to the decleration to slavery to the whole bus boicot event. nothing to hard to understand
yes, very dangerous, oh please someone help me! i have been threatened by coldfuse, who's grammar is even subpar to Bush himself speaking. oh no! i have been smitten.

i think you're the one being foolish...i hope you're typing in this way on purpose, because i haven't met anything with such...'speech':

"easy to understand my self. and very easy to understant."

i disagree with that. and i disagree.

i'm hoping that period is there by mistake, although connecting that to the next sentence doens't work out too well.


kid: lol
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 12:54am

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Coldfuse

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well i dont mind at all, to what you throw at me. it just Shows how much of a point you have in the matter of which we are talking.

Yes please go a head and start trying to take the piss out of me, like i really care... What i find funny, is you still havent through out this post replyed back to any of the relivant information. you are more side stepping what is being asked.

i Guess in the line of defeat all you can do, is start to make fun of other people. which i get very tired of. I mean this is why we have a problem in todays society, people who cant dissus issues maturely and then go on a tangent, thinking there all big and high mighty. Well little boy's why dont you just step to the side, and let the big boys talk!

you all, so tire me with ur feeble attempts to look big and smart sleep
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 12:57am

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Hajiku_Flip

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Coldfuse wrote:

Well little boy's why dont you just step to the side, and let the big boys talk! you all, so tire me with ur feeble attempts to look big and smart sleep
This is out of my character to make posts like this, but come on. Really...

rolleyes

Last edited Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 12:58am; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 12:57am

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Cypher

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Cypher wrote:

The whole gun thing in the states doesn't affect me...if i need something, i can figure out a way to get it hide it well wink
to save you the trouble of scrolling up, you will notice that i posted that. i stated my opinion on the gun topic and have no more to say. i dont care enough for it nor does it affect me much.

yes, let the big boys talk! we accept your resignation from this topic, coldfuse.
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 1:04am

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Coldfuse

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again ur wit, is as sharpe as a sponge. Dont worry im sorry for u!

Again the line of defeat, if u have no such an opinion then do what any normal person would do NOT POST.
where asking for opinions. Not ur attempt to start a conversaion!

First of all hajiku, if someone is only here to start calling people names, in a gun debate it isnt exactly, much of an mature dissusion.

If you cant answer on the subject in hand, then dont. because basically i dont really care what you have to say about me. Just reinforces what people think about others from certain areas
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 1:11am

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Cypher

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this is priceless.

coldfuse, i know without a doubt that many people would rather listen to me pick apart your posts than to read your posts which also contain no new information and no new discussion to the related topic.

so i have a tip for you to: if you have a point to get across, make sure that it is understandable. i mean, it's really not that hard. just think before you speak. and if you noticed, and i have not name called you once, except for an above joke with the brackets <INSERT BAD NAME HERE..>. so i dont see what the hell you are talking about. infact, nobody does, not even Flip...and he's the 'understanding' one.

cool, my wit is as sharp as a sponge, you say. You do know that sponges are very flexible and you can't break their back right? so what you're really saying is that I am extremely well witted.

Last edited Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 1:12am; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 1:12am

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scobbs

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Rating: +1

Bowling for Columbine????

The academy is currently reviewing wether or not to take away his Oscar due to the fact that many fcts in his movie were made up or skewed and many of the scenes were staged.


http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html



Roger Moore is about as reliable source as Dr. Seus
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 1:18am

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Coldfuse

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I wonder how long it took you to think of all that.

well anyway... if there wasnt such relivant information, then how come others can understand, and have pointed out on many occasions of what i have said... yes sit there and think about it.

And yes u have started to be rude and offensive, to me in last hour and a half or so. Again nothing to do with the point in hand.

And i think u were reading to much into the whole sponge thing, and missing the point. ill explain it for you seeing as it may take u a while to think about it then reply. WERE TALKING ABOUT SHARPE OBJECTS HERE. A PLAY ON THE PUN. NOT ABOUT THE FLEXIBILITY OF IT....
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 1:33am

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Kid

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Shon Cobbs wrote:

Bowling for Columbine????

The academy is currently reviewing wether or not to take away his Oscar due to the fact that many fcts in his movie were made up or skewed and many of the scenes were staged.
The academy arnt reviewing anything. It is simply a campaign by some random people.

I haven't seen bowling for columbine but I do know some of his stuff and I can see how Americans would take it as unamerican and want to fight back. Despite the fact the MM does turn facts to his advantage he isnt simply making stuff up. What he does is hardly fiction, it just has a little spin and I dont think this campaign will get anywhere.

He does annoy me because he puts that spin on but most of the time the point he is trying to make is right.
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 1:37am

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Cypher

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Coldfuse: Dude you are incredibly thick...too thick. I suggest that you direct all of your discussion to that brick wall over there and I'm sure you two will get along nicely.

I dont see myself as being rude, nor that offensive, but that's just me. anyone else finding me offense...or more enjoyable? biggrin

Speaking of length, did you know that i replied 8 minutes after your post, and then you replied 7 minutes after mine? dont believe me? want fact? look at the times. But at least i did think about what I was saying...and no, i wasn't reading into the sponge thing, it just backfired on you and you are getting upset. I'm sorry.

oh, and for people understanding you, i'm sorry but let me point out a few things to you:

during this discussion over the last hour, these are the people who openly thought your speech was poor and incomprehensible: myself, sfbmovieco, flip and i'm sorry to say, but Kid as well, who was siding with you on the actual debate. here's a direct quote from the chat short after your reply.

<Kid> half of what he says almost makes sense
<Cypher> keyword kid "almost"
~
<Kid> yeah cypher almost was my point razz

yes, it hurts coldfuse, but i'm sure you can live with it.

Shon Cobbs: that's pretty cool. I did find the KKK to the NRA complete BS and that was one of the things i was referring to in earlier posts.


oh, and coldfuse, my replies take time because I am doing other things while enjoying your...know what, i'm not going to say anything, i dont want to seem offensive or rude.
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 1:38am

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Coldfuse

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first of all, of course he will spin it to his opinion. but then so would the oppsing sides. so he isnt exactly in the wrong. he is mearly stating his point, and making it seem he is right, just like the oppsining side would
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 1:40am

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Kid

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I did also say

[Kid] he seems to be pretty bright, just not very understandable
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 1:44am

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Cypher

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Yes, but that's not the point. I dont actually recall calling coldfuse stupid or an idiot so it really has no relevance.
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 1:45am

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Coldfuse

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ohh cypher, im glad you, feel that you have backup in ur opinions. again you mearly try to turn everything again. there was nothing at all that backfired on me. i mearly stated what i was saying. you mearly went off onto a tangent.

What i find funny, is how most of what has been replyed back to me, is from what i am aware from american people. why dont you stop being so hot headed, like alot of the time you can be, start acting to whats being written. it doesnt matter at all what you say. you're not exactly helping ur self out here, trying to call me names, when im repeatedly asking for a point on gun issues.
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 1:58am

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Cypher

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okay, enough. you're arrogance and the same lines of "it doesn't matter what you say but i am still going to respond as if it mattered" are just getting annoying.

where am i actually trying to call you a new, besides that joke in the <>? quote for me please. maybe i did, but i serverly doubt it. if i were to want to call you a name, you can be assured that post would have been deleted 50 times over and 50 times again. i am not being hot headed, you are.

what the hell does "again you mearly try to turn everything again" mean?

oh, i dont need to help myself, i'm actually burning you to a crisp in the ground and you are flailing under my might. You have said the exact same thing, except in different, yet equally poor sentences over the last few posts.

ps: many things did backfire on you, most recently, the bowling for columbine thing. i doubt the academy will do anything, but the guy does have flat out lies in there that i've seen (ie, the NRA thing) and i haven't even seen all of it.
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 2:06am

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Coldfuse

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i guess u didnt read what, kid said
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 2:08am

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Cypher

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i did, and i agree with the academy thing.

but some things aren't just simple stretches of the truth, but stretches that have formed into lies.
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 2:11am

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sidewinder

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Yeah, that animation had a ton of BullCrap in it.


About spinning the facts...

If you have to spin the facts to prove your point, doesn't that mean your point is wrong? The question then becomes...who is doing the spinning?


The Answer: gun control advocates!


Also, everyone, keep this in mind:

Don't bend the facts to suit your perception of the world. Bend your perception of the world to fit the facts.



-

and finallly...



THIS TOPIC IS TOTALLY AWESOME



When it's brown and bold, you know it's awesome.
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 2:12am

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Cypher

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sidewinder wrote:

THIS TOPIC IS TOTALLY AWESOME
and you have me to thank for it biggrin
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 2:14am

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Kid

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There is spin on both sides. On the internet it seems to be mostly pro gun campaigners.

This does not change the base facts though which I have to remind you say that you would be better off if guns were banned. smile
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 2:15am

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Magic_man12

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Coldfuse go eat a pizza

You posts are useless. No one wants to read some crap about nothing, quit b4 you get WAY TOO far behind instead of keepin it up and getting ripped by Cypher..

smile


-MAGIC
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 2:16am

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Coldfuse

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ok now i read that piece of shit which cypher chooses to believe. I mean how stupid do you have to be, to read something that has been written by someone, who basically doesnt like micheal moore.

I mean when i was watching the documentry. especially the part it says about the
'
Cut to Charlton Heston holding a musket and proclaiming "I have only five words for you: 'from my cold, dead, hands'";

Cut to billboard advertising the meeting, while Moore intones "Just ten days after the Columbine killings, despite the pleas of a community in mourning, Charlton Heston came to Denver and held a large pro-gun rally for the National Rifle Association;"

Cut to Heston (supposedly) continuing speech... "I have a message from the Mayor, Mr. Wellington Webb, the Mayor of Denver. He sent me this; it says 'don't come here. We don't want you here.' I say to the Mayor this is our country, as Americans we're free to travel wherever we want in our broad land. Don't come here? We're already here!"

The portrayal is one of an arrogant protest in response to the deaths -- or, as one reviewer put it, "it seemed that Charlton Heston and others rushed to Littleton to hold rallies and demonstrations directly after the tragedy." The portrayal is in fact false.


Fact: The Denver event was not a demonstration relating to Columbine, but an annual meeting (see links below), whose place and date had been fixed years in advance.'

where in the point did micheal moore say that it was about Columbine. If you actually wacthed the documentry, instead of trying to fight it. He actually says that they have a meeting about, guns and it didnt have anything to do with columbine, just it was out of order they were doing it 10 days after it happend.

I have a question for you guys whos part of the NRA?
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 2:19am

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Coldfuse

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i mean you say about how the truth cant be bent, this is exactly what im talking about. a whole bunch of biast opinion.

You people need to know how the world works
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 2:20am

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Cypher

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Kid wrote:

This does not change the base facts though which I have to remind you say that you would be better off if guns were banned. smile
One thing: there can't really be a fact on a what if....


coldfuse: who says i really believe that (well, besides you of course)? the NRA (and KKK) part intrigued me and i read that. then looked up some info and lo and behold, i found the exact same information.

oh, and coldfuse, how stupid do you have to be to believe what a made-for-entertainment documentary says?
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 2:21am

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Cypher

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Coldfuse wrote:

You people need to know how the world works
And you need to know how to speak...oh, and yea, how the world works too.


I have a saying actually, that Fact is Subjective...
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 2:22am

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Coldfuse

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yes believe ur president, and ur goverment. And you wonder why people dnot like america. You guys are to well proud, and cant understand ur goverment sucks and that there is a whole bunch of crap you are being lied about. Its like saying (as they do) THERES NO AREA 51
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 2:24am

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Cypher

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Coldfuse wrote:

yes believe ur president, and ur goverment. And you wonder why people dnot like america. You guys are to well proud, and cant understand ur goverment sucks and that there is a whole bunch of crap you are being lied about. Its like saying (as they do) THERES NO AREA 51
I didn't think it were true,
I didn't think it were possible,
but lo and behold,
he has said something even less logical!

Last edited Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 2:26am; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 2:24am

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Coldfuse

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who much shit do you really have to read to believe this?

"Scene cuts to protestors, including a woman with a Million Moms March t-shirt, who asks how Heston could come here, she's shocked and appalled, "it's like he's rubbing our face in it." (This speaker and the protest may be faked, but let's assume for the moment they're real.). This caps your impression. She's shocked by Heston coming there, 48 hours after the death. He'd hardly be rubbing faces in it if he came there much later, on a purpose unrelated to the death."

oh it didnt really happen is that what ur gonna tell me?
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 2:26am

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Kid

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Cypher wrote:

I have a saying actually, that Fact is Subjective...
fact is fact, interpretation is subjective
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 2:27am

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Cypher

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i disagree wink

fact can be subjective, because it can be discarded later as not being a fact because it were not true, but at the time it were being seen as true. Truth is Objective, Fact is Subjective.

I actually talked about this with sidey at length a while ago, it was pretty interesting.
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 2:29am

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Coldfuse

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less logical? why dotn u answer the question cypher instead of avoiding like you have been, with trying to insult. Has it not been said that area 51 does not exist, even in legal proceedings? but hell its there my friend we cann all see it!
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 2:31am

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Cypher

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where the hell did you ask the question about area 51?

"Its like saying (as they do) THERES NO AREA 51" is NOT a question. surely you can't expect an answer for when there is no question.
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 2:31am

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Kid

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No.

I get what you are saying but no, Fact is not people's interpretation of the truth. A fact or the truth are still a fact or truth whether people believe them to be or not.

What people believe to be a fact or the truth may well not be though.
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 2:32am

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Coldfuse

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unfortuently i forgot to add in the question mark, only a mistake of my own. but then please answer away.
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 2:33am

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Cypher

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Kid wrote:

What people believe to be a fact or the truth may well not be though.
Exactly! Making it subjective. It also ties into opinion.
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 2:34am

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Cypher

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Coldfuse wrote:

unfortuently i forgot to add in the question mark, only a mistake of my own. but then please answer away.
Adding a question mark does not make any sentence a question. I would answer your question, but i am astonished at the low level of your literacy. It is an insult to me to try and have a conversation with you at this point.
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 2:34am

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Kid

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No, the fact or truth itself is not subjective. Only what people believe.
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 2:36am

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Coldfuse

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oh yes and with issues like this from the goverment, will you still sitck by and watch. A socitey fall at the hands of conglomorate enterprises?
http://villagevoice.com/issues/0338/schanberg.php
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 2:37am

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Cypher

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But that fact is interpreted by the person. A universal fact that just IS is not subjective, but when i speak of fact it is what people think of as fact.

for example when someone goes: "I know for a fact, that...", does that make it a fact to everyone? no, it is their fact that they believe to be fact, therefore, subjective.
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 2:39am

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Coldfuse

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no cypher u are right, putting a question mark at any sentence, doesnt make it a question. but i was asking you one. so again stop trying to avoid the question like you always are and answer the thing.

How many more insults have you got to go, before you actually have none left and have to answer the question in hand?
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 2:39am

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Cypher

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What the hell does that have to do with anything, Coldfuse. you seem to think that I am american, although I have posted that i am not. and seeing as no one else who is american is actually posting now, you must be speaking to yourself and will probably not warrant anymore direct replies.
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 2:40am

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Cypher

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Coldfuse wrote:

no cypher u are right
-oxy-moron

Coldfuse wrote:

but i was asking you one.
no, you were not. i dont know what you aretrying to ask me. stop beating around the bush and ask.
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 2:40am

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Coldfuse

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first of all, did i say u were american?

I dont think so, again cypher you have alot to say like the rest! but you never read the post in hand LIKE THE OTHERS.
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 2:42am

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Coldfuse

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i am asking you, like i have been, is there an area 51?

why dont you stop with the insults and acutally, show some commen sense and asnwer what i have asked you!

It doesnt make you at all bigger. How ever, many fans you may have.

Last edited Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 2:43am; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 2:42am

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Kid

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Yeah but cypher the fact that you exist might not be the truth. The point is with enough evidence you believe stuff.

These 'facts' are coming from reasonably reliable sources and so anyone who claims not to believe them because they might not be the truth is a little daft.
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 2:43am

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Cypher

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pray tell then, who are you talking to here:

Coldfuse wrote:

yes believe ur president, and ur goverment. And you wonder why people dnot like america. You guys are to well proud, and cant understand ur goverment sucks and that there is a whole bunch of crap you are being lied about. Its like saying (as they do) THERES NO AREA 51
You say president, because America has a president. My country does not. then you say "you wonder why people dnot like america", which establishes that you are indeed speaking of america and try to elaborate some opinion on government. then area 51, which is an american thing.
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 2:43am

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Hajiku_Flip

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Coldfuse wrote:

yes believe ur president, and ur goverment. And you wonder why people dnot like america. You guys are to well proud, and cant understand ur goverment sucks and that there is a whole bunch of crap you are being lied about. Its like saying (as they do) THERES NO AREA 51
You make accusations that we are insulting you, when you're the only one I see making direct insults to people, and their country. Then you bring up some totally random Area 51 note. If Area 51 was secret, do you think they'd tell us it existed, or show us proof? Please, stop arguing before you dig yourself into a hole you can't get out of. Your ruining all your credibility with every post unsure
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 2:46am

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Coldfuse

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ahh, yes ok that was a post inwhich i had forgotten about. I guess i must have written that to you, in telling you were american, i kindaly Apologise
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 2:48am

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Coldfuse

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Flip i will have to actually find the article for u. But it was in a court of law, in america. on trial where a young man was trying to sue Area 51, and in fact the judge turned around and said as such it didnt exsit. I will have to find the article, i saw the report ages ago on tv, and also on a internet article
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 2:48am

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Kid

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Right I am off to bed. Ooh I am really scared cos someone might break in while I am asleep and I have no gun to protect myself with.
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 2:49am

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Coldfuse

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hmm im making direct insults to there country, becuase they are using there contry as an excuse for one.

Second of all i dont go around calling people names, i mearly state what the facts are. from soruces.
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 2:49am

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Cypher

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Kid wrote:

Yeah but cypher the fact that you exist might not be the truth. The point is with enough evidence you believe stuff.

These 'facts' are coming from reasonably reliable sources and so anyone who claims not to believe them because they might not be the truth is a little daft.
well that's another part of the argument: for something to be accepted as fact, there must be sources; evidence. evidence is alot of times very biased and subjective, especially in the way it is relayed.

Coldfuse wrote:

i am asking you, like i have been, is there an area 51?

why dont you stop with the insults and acutally, show some commen sense and asnwer what i have asked you!

It doesnt make you at all bigger. How ever, many fans you may have.
that is the first time you have actually asked me a proper question about it. and i dont know if there is or if there isn't, i have never been there, nor have i seen pictures or video tape, nor do i actually care. now tell me, how sure are you that it exists...you say you've seen it. that means that you actually went to wherever it is supposed to be and seen with your own two eyes the area51.

as to really answer your question, i believe that there are facilites like area 51, but if it were so important to not being seen and with all of the rumors, i gaurentee you that if they cared enough, they would have actually moved this area51 to a new location and let people like you go nuts over the supposed (or old) area.

no, i dont think ill stop with the insults, tho i am not really instulting you, if i were, you would know it.

why do i need to become bigger? i already am...
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 2:51am

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Kid

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Cypher wrote:

Kid wrote:

Yeah but cypher the fact that you exist might not be the truth. The point is with enough evidence you believe stuff.

These 'facts' are coming from reasonably reliable sources and so anyone who claims not to believe them because they might not be the truth is a little daft.
well that's another part of the argument: for something to be accepted as fact, there must be sources; evidence. evidence is alot of times very biased and subjective, especially in the way it is relayed.
So find your own sources and despute the evidence. You can't though because it is the truth! you have to beat around the bush because the facts are on the side of the gun control people.
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 2:53am

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Hajiku_Flip

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Coldfuse wrote:

Second of all i dont go around calling people names, i mearly state what the facts are. from soruces.
So your telling me that the 'facts' are that we are 'to well proud' and can't 'understand ur goverment sucks'. I'd like to see your sources. Sources different from your evidently 'biast' opinions. rolleyes
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 2:54am

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Cypher

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somehow Kid finds a way to get back on topic. i applaude you biggrin

but still, the point is that fact doesn't have to be correct. in many instances, the fact does not work for everyone. You cannot say that it is ia fact that banning guns will be better, because even if you have evidence and sources helping that, it does not make it so.
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 2:56am

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Coldfuse

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Cypher wrote:

somehow Kid finds a way to get back on topic. i applaude you biggrin

but still, the point is that fact doesn't have to be correct. in many instances, the fact does not work for everyone. You cannot say that it is ia fact that banning guns will be better, because even if you have evidence and sources helping that, it does not make it so.
whhhhhhhha? ok sorry the world was built in 6 days right?

had to edit this, so would you be saying (and this only as an example) that i had not only taken pictures of me walking to work, with a clock in a blue coat, plus eye witness acounts (my sources) that its not a fact?

Last edited Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 3:05am; edited 2 times in total.

Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 3:00am

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Coldfuse

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i can show you evidance my friend
http://www.axisofjustice.org/

all the evidance i need. shame i didnt keep the artical, about the vietnam war
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 3:04am

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Cypher

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evidence for what? for your stupidity? there, now i'm being offensive. I think that you are stupid.
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 3:09am

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Coldfuse

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no u think you cant asnwer it can you. Are you going to stand here and say. a fact is not a fact. even though there is evidence for it and sources?

ill give you another example. Are you telling me a soccer match has just been played. the final score is 4-1 everyone one has seen it the fan's (sources and evidance) action replays, and so on.
But still with all that a. fact can not be a fact?

Last edited Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 3:10am; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 3:09am

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Cypher

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Coldfuse wrote:

whhhhhhhha? ok sorry the world was built in 6 days right?

had to edit this, so would you be saying (and this only as an example) that i had not only taken pictures of me walking to work, with a clock in a blue coat, plus eye witness acounts (my sources) that its not a fact?
yes, sure, the world was 'built' in 6 days...whatever you say.

and as for your shitty example, how do i know that in fact did that (hypethetically) and didn't just ask people to say that they are eye witness acounts. say you KNOW you did something, then it is a fact to you. but i DON'T know that you did something, how can it possibly be a fact to me? i can't, unless it is proven to me beyond any reasonable doubt. so in other words, fact still remains subjective.
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 3:10am

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Cypher

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Coldfuse wrote:

no u think you cant asnwer it can you. Are you going to stand here and say. a fact is not a fact. even though there is evidence for it and sources?

ill give you another example. Are you telling me a soccer match has just been played. the final score is 4-1 everyone one has seen it the fance (sources and evidance) action replays, and so on.
But still with all that a. fact can not be a fact?
dude, you have to be able to tell what i'm talking about. that post was to your random thing with the axis site.

and in the above post, i answered your question.
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 3:14am

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Coldfuse

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it still remains subjective ok ok, but you chose to believe AN eledged fact that was stated by that article, proving micheal moore wrong. and you choose to except, say the dates of american history.
But you wasnt there!

the reason i asked you was the world built in 6 days. I was mearly proving that you say fact is not a fact its subjective. what im saying is was the world built in 6 days, by a all and mighty god?

If i believe right, it might be old testmiate, but wasnt it suggested the world was only 6000 years old. but with new findings like dinasours and so on. it has been seen it was more millions.

Last edited Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 3:16am; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 3:15am

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Coldfuse

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Cypher wrote:

Coldfuse wrote:

no u think you cant asnwer it can you. Are you going to stand here and say. a fact is not a fact. even though there is evidence for it and sources?

ill give you another example. Are you telling me a soccer match has just been played. the final score is 4-1 everyone one has seen it the fance (sources and evidance) action replays, and so on.
But still with all that a. fact can not be a fact?
dude, you have to be able to tell what i'm talking about. that post was to your random thing with the axis site.

and in the above post, i answered your question.
that was in answer to haku
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 3:16am

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Cypher

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no, the article simply made me interested in finding out more. so i did some reasearch and it seems to fit, so to me, that is a fact. but to you, it obviously isn't.
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 3:17am

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Coldfuse

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anyway i will conclude this later on, i have to go to bed. have a big day tomorrow. please wirte on and i shall reply.
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 3:20am

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Coldfuse

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to me, it is an exstension, of what micheal moore is saying. he is getting his point across using his information more biast to his side.

And on the other side, the oposition are doing exactly the same. I choose to believe micheal moore, because of facts such as rallys that were held, after the accounts. I choose not to believe they were made up, just to give the NRA a bad name. otherwise why the hell didnt it happen earlier. why only that one time? or two in the case it maybe!
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 3:22am

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Hajiku_Flip

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Coldfuse wrote:

that was in answer to haku
That website was his undeniable proof that my 'country sux' and 'were all too proud'.

And it's Hajiku. You can mispell everything else in your sentences, but try not to mispell my name.

plz. k. thx. bi.
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 3:32am

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MechaForce

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To do list:

1) Stop spelling biased with a damn "T"!!

2) Stop debating whether fact is fact. This isn't a philisophical debate, this is guns.

3) Read the article at the first post on the 9th page of this thread.

4) Post facts with links and sources instead of just saying that "this is so and so and that means bla."

That would help the whole choosing to believe facts or not thing.

Did you know that everyone in the year 1847 drank water, and none of them are alive today? Conclusion: water is the SILENT KILLER! LOOK AT THE FACTS!!!!!!!! DO YOU KNOW ANYONE WHO WAS ALIVE IN THE YEAR 1847 AND STILL IS AROUND TODAY!?!?!!?!?!?!?!
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 3:48am

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MechaForce

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Oh, and the only way to truly settle this, is to get crimes per 100,000 in for each state, and information on what gun laws they have in which states.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/guncrime.htm

Check out Clinton's terrific job of reducing gun crime (1992-2000). It's funny how the big hump there is when gangsta rap kicked in biggrin. Now what happened in 1994? THE BRADY LAW! It required background checks and the waiting period before buying a gun.

OH OH OH! Now that I said that I gotta add the ol' Switzerland fact - - at 18 men go and train in the army and when they return they all have an M16 - - Switzerland is has the 2nd highest firepower per person in the world, and the last time there was an reported armed robbery was in 1993 in Geneva. Correct me if I'm wrong, Sollthar.

Wait! Japan has no guns, and they have almost no crime!

BAMF!
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 4:21am

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scobbs

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I am neither a member of the NRA nor a gun owner. Surprise, I'm sure to Coldfuse and others.



What you folks in other countries have to understand is that most Americans are indeed "too well proud"

I am "too well proud" that:

I live in a country that let's me make the above decisions for myself.

I can partake in this discussion and have no fear of retribution

I can praise my government or damn them.........by voting.

I live in a country that was founded on principle.....and even though that principle subjects itself to the occasional critisisms, it has proven to outlast all opponots and provide for the growth and prosperity of this nation and all of its citizens.


The US is attacked often because of how much power and influence we have in the world. The reason? Simple, people like to bitch about whoever is Number 1. (Example: Microsoft wink )

Do any of you realize that the US is the only superpower (economic and Military) to come into existance with a representative government? Do you know how amazing that really is? In this worlds history, the major superpowers only come into existance after a dictatorship takes over and controls the money to turn it into a superpower (Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini....) by use of force and oppression. Our country has done it by sticking to the founding principles of running the government. Our citizens decide who shall be in office, and if someone out of whack get's in, they can be replaced quite easily by the will of the people.

We have many freedoms here that others do not. And there is a price for those freedoms. We are willing to accept that.

I would rather live in a country with more freedom and less guarntee of safety than a country with less freedoms that has a better safety record.

"Those who are willing to sacrifice freedom for safety will usually end up with neither"

And besides, you guys make it sound as if our streets are red with blood and people are "picked off" daily right in front of all of our eyes.

I have never seen a murder
I don't know of anyone who was murdered
I don't know anyone who knows of anyone who was murdered
I don't know anyone who has seen a murder
I don't know of anyone who knows of anyone who has seen a murder


For the vast majority of Americans, violence does not reach them to this extreme. Why do you think that you could convince me to give up one of my rights as an American citizen? Do you think that because you let your government make your decisions for you that I envy your sense of safety? I don't.

So, I'll continue to be "too well proud" to be an American and just go on "livin on the edge"
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 5:50am

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cantaclaro

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Well said...

Canta unsure
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 7:05am

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Joshua Davies

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Do people here actually think guns are a good thing? eek
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 9:35am

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Coldfuse

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lol, well yea again post going off a into a tangent.

TO hajiku_flip, sorry for miss spelling ur name, i was posting at 4 in the morning. when ur tired you make many mistakes.

To mecha, i will post on philisophical, issues if it is part of someones argument.

And i dont exactll understand your'e point in youre next post. whats youre whole point about swizterland and japan, we dont already know?

Shon Cobbs: hmm do you actually know how a priminister is able to get into office, over this country? usually done by a vote like anywhere else.

I dony think everyone just likes to as you put it (girl dog). Its the fact yes you are such a power, and i have stated this earlier on the post. If you would have read. I have stated (and i will say again)...The reason people are having problems with america now, is because not that too long ago America was seen as the place of dreams. Now many people are starting to find out the truth about alot of well hidden, facts and are brought to the attention of many issues. which are suprising to them.

Why do you think there was a whole thing with iraq in america. There was a split deiscion. People started to find out about the history of the bush contingant. to which many were suprised with what had happend before (probably forgetting). Then questions started to arise about oil and so on.

About the point you make about the superpower. Dont you understand, there was a thriving slavery trade in amaerica? thats one way it started to become a very big economical structre. (with the demise of the Great Deppresion wages started to whine down.)

what I say is, i have freedom over here in england i am able to vote, i am able to choose who i would like to see as my priminister. I still have very much of a freedom. and i dont see my freedom has to include being a little Soldier with a gun. I have no use for it. I dont pray on the WHAT IF. its a waste of time and a waste of space. even if i did have a gun what would i really do with it?

Im not going to go over posts i have already posted. because its just a waste of time.

Last edited Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 9:36am; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 9:35am

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otteypm

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I own guns, I use my rifle for target shooting and pest control and my shotgun for clay pigeon shooting.

All of these are activities that I enjoy, they are my chosen sports, if guns were banned I would no longer be able to participate in these sports in my own country.

So yes I think guns are a good thing, I enjoy using them for my sporting purposes, but I am aware of how dangerous they are. The people cause the violence not the guns.

Go out in any UK town on a Saturday night and you'll probably see someone getting beaten to a pulp for no good reason, that demonstrate that the violent act comes from the person what ever weapon they choose.

I do believe in gun control, just not banning them.
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 9:54am

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Coldfuse

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lol, the london gezzer... well yes there are viloent acts that men after drinking do fight on the streets. Once you pull out a gun in a situation like that. it then becomes a different situation. i think anyone that holds a weapon is a coward and shouldnt really be using it against another. especially if the other didnt have a weapon.

And no one can say to me they wouldnt bring it out say if i attacked you, with acutally bno weapon at all, if u had it on you!

once question though ottey, whats you're views exactly on say fox hunting?
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 10:20am

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Simon K Jones

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otteypm wrote:

So yes I think guns are a good thing, I enjoy using them for my sporting purposes, but I am aware of how dangerous they are. The people cause the violence not the guns.

Go out in any UK town on a Saturday night and you'll probably see someone getting beaten to a pulp for no good reason, that demonstrate that the violent act comes from the person what ever weapon they choose.
All good points.

However, the man getting beaten to a pulp on Saturday night would be dead man if his attacked had been carrying a gun.

A gun is just a weapon, like any other. If a thug doesn't have a gun then he'll find something else.

However, the difference is that a gun is very easy to fire, and very easy to do serious harm with.

If a kid walks into a crowded classroom with a knife, he's going to hurt a few people. But he will probably be subdued fairly quickly, too.

If a kid walks into a crowded classroom with a gun, there are going to be a lot of deaths before anybody can even react.

That's the important distinction, as I see it.
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 10:31am

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Coldfuse

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im sorry tarn i know you closed the dicussion on the post, that you have just locked.

But i was was offended greatly in that one. damn its a shame you locked it, cos i would have liked to voiced my opinion there. Some one of mixed race i have luckly been able to be taught histroy on two levels. and im able to understand different points. and make my own judgments.

so yeah please dont write like that in this post please, cos i think things like this

Blacks are the ones who have perpetuated an awful mark on American history- telling me and all the other whites that I am responsible for slavery, telling me to never forget slavery
are really out of order, and to me very racist. ok sorry just had to say that.

But yeah i agree completely with tarn. guns are very easy now days and are seen as a toy or a rag doll (like i have said earlier) it is very easy to fire a weapon which i find that when someone has one they, are infact a coward hiding behind something to do there dirty work.

If you want to act on such animal instincs, which is fighting then you should be prepared, that you dont need a weapon to do such a primal thing.
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 10:37am

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Joshua Davies

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otteypm - Try catching and killing a rabbit with a spoon - NOW THATS A SPORT!
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 11:03am

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Coldfuse

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what happend to the good old egg and spoon race? now thats a mans sport...with ur high assed shorts, and ur nice sensible hair. gonna show ur mom you can be the other kids in sports day!!!

THE MEMORIES
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 12:07pm

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otteypm

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Coldfuse, I don't agree with fox hunting as I don't see it as hunting, it's ganging up on an animal with overwhelming numbers.

I also don't see it as pest control, if you want to control foxes it is more practical to use a gun.

Game hunting and rough shooting are fine because the hunter needs to use skill to kill the animal, rather than just setting the hounds loose.

Tarn, I definately agree that a gun in a violent situation will make it much worse, I was saying that the violence would exist with or without the gun, therefore the problem is the violence not the weapon used to commit it.

I used to be great at the egg and spoon race, I still have my certificates from school sports days.
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 12:17pm

Post 195 of 212

sidewinder

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If the Brady Law was so effective in reducing crime, do you know why it was so low up to 1988? Why did it spike between 1988 and 1994?
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 12:26pm

Post 196 of 212

Kid

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Shon Cobbs wrote:

What you folks in other countries have to understand is that most Americans are indeed "too well proud"

I am "too well proud" that:

I live in a country that let's me make the above decisions for myself.

I can partake in this discussion and have no fear of retribution

I can praise my government or damn them.........by voting.

I live in a country that was founded on principle.....and even though that principle subjects itself to the occasional critisisms, it has proven to outlast all opponots and provide for the growth and prosperity of this nation and all of its citizens.

The US is attacked often because of how much power and influence we have in the world. The reason? Simple, people like to female dog about whoever is Number 1. (Example: Microsoft wink )

Do any of you realize that the US is the only superpower (economic and Military) to come into existance with a representative government? Do you know how amazing that really is? In this worlds history, the major superpowers only come into existance after a dictatorship takes over and controls the money to turn it into a superpower (Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini....) by use of force and oppression. Our country has done it by sticking to the founding principles of running the government. Our citizens decide who shall be in office, and if someone out of whack get's in, they can be replaced quite easily by the will of the people.

We have many freedoms here that others do not. And there is a price for those freedoms. We are willing to accept that.

I would rather live in a country with more freedom and less guarntee of safety than a country with less freedoms that has a better safety record.

"Those who are willing to sacrifice freedom for safety will usually end up with neither"
Hehe this really made me laugh my ass off.

The only reason America is the biggest superpower is because it is the biggest country with a huge amount of natural resources. It was stolen from its native people, it didn't come to power democratically! Also last time I looked the British empire came to power ruled by an elected goverment, not a dictator and brought civilisation to the world (in addition to the bad things, but overall good for those countries now)

Also Americans always rant on about their freedoms despite not being the freeest nation. Also when they go on about it it is usually something daft like freedom to eat burgers or freedom to shoot people with their gun. Well I have a much greater freedom than you, the freedom to go about my business in peace without being shot!

Also you claim to be free however you overlook all the people who are not free in America due to poverty or prejedice and America has one of the greatest history of that in the world. It was afterall built on slavery which is ironic when its most cherished principle is supposed to be freedom.
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 12:31pm

Post 197 of 212

Kid

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sidewinder wrote:

If the Brady Law was so effective in reducing crime, do you know why it was so low up to 1988? Why did it spike between 1988 and 1994?
You keep talking about US crime as if it was low. It is falling but even now after falling several times the current rate it is still way higher than in Europe.
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 12:36pm

Post 198 of 212

Kid

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MechaForce wrote:

OH OH OH! Now that I said that I gotta add the ol' Switzerland fact - - at 18 men go and train in the army and when they return they all have an M16 - - Switzerland is has the 2nd highest firepower per person in the world, and the last time there was an reported armed robbery was in 1993 in Geneva. Correct me if I'm wrong, Sollthar.
Perhaps if every american had to do national service before they could get a gun they would learn to be more responsible and then they too would not need harsh gun laws.

Also the fact there about armed robbery is incorrect. The one you are trying to quote which is being passed about on several pro gun sites is that in 1993 there were no armed robberies. However if you look at the national stats you can see quite plainly that there were and have been since.
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 1:45pm

Post 199 of 212

scobbs

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Just to clarify a couple things on my earlier post:

I didn't say America was the only country that allowed its citizens to vote in their elected officials. I said we were the only contry to become a superprower by means of a representative government.

England is not currently a superpower (not an insult) It used to be, but is not any longer. At the height of the British empire, its power was derived by dictator (some good, some not so good).


America did not become a superpower built on slavery. We didn't become a superpower until after WWII, After the Great Depression. America was not a superpower the second it came into existance. It took time. Slavery is one of the stains on our history that had to be abolished before we could grow so greatly. Slavery didn't help us, it hurt us and almost tore the country apart. Only after that wrong was righted were we able to flourish.

Same with the Great Depression, it was caused by a false economy in the 20's. Only after we stopped pretending that everything was rosy and realized how to grow, did we grow.

Point is, all of this was accomplished by means of sticking to our principles as a government. Slavery was done away with because the will of the people decided so. That is the beauty of our government. No matter what happens, it can be reversed by the will of the people.

Maybe someday, the will of the American people will decide that they want to ban guns. There is actually a process that can be followed for that to happen. Do I think that it will ever? No. Why? Because:

Americans are willing to give up some of their guarntees of safety to retain their freedoms.

That is what you are not understanding. We are ok with trying to deal with our crime rates without punishing everybody. If that means that our crime rates are never as low as some other "less free" countries....so be it.
Posted: Wed, 24th Sep 2003, 1:49pm

Post 200 of 212

Kid

Force: 4177 | Joined: 1st Apr 2001 | Posts: 1876

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But do you not see that you are not more free? Giving up guns is not losing a freedom, it is gaining one!

Also Britain was not ruled by a dictator in the times of the British empire.

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