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The Day After Tomorrow

Posted: Thu, 6th Nov 2003, 12:33am

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blaine

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Hay I was on Qiuck time movie Trailers and I found a realy cool movie that you peaple should check out!



***http://www.apple.com/trailers/fox/dayaftertomorrow***
Posted: Thu, 6th Nov 2003, 12:39am

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Hajiku_Flip

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Whoa, that looks really cool! I love movies like that biggrin. Although, I hope it's not just the first half hour thats filled with crazy events, and the rest is the same old rehashed stuff we've seen before. This has potential though, can't wait to see more information.
Posted: Thu, 6th Nov 2003, 12:44am

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AndrewtheActorMan

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Donno if it so good to put it on memorial day tho. all the disaster in the citys and stuff might remind people of 9/11. Who knows, but cool movie.

The last shot was cool...sumthen about it...

biggrin aNDREW
Posted: Thu, 6th Nov 2003, 1:25am

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blaine

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ya only time will tell
Posted: Thu, 6th Nov 2003, 1:29am

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MechaForce

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Reminders, schmeminders, this is cool!

Very cool...
Posted: Thu, 6th Nov 2003, 1:32am

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Pooky

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Hrmm looks like this could be awesome but what scares me is that it's from the directors of independance day... neutral
Posted: Thu, 6th Nov 2003, 1:33am

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AndrewtheActorMan

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that fits the movie from what i see.
Posted: Thu, 6th Nov 2003, 1:35am

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Pooky

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Well I think it would have been better from someone like... say... Tim Burton.
Posted: Thu, 6th Nov 2003, 1:53am

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MechaForce

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Dude, do you even know who Tim Burton is?
Posted: Thu, 6th Nov 2003, 1:56am

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sidewinder

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You have a problem with Independence Day, Pooky?

The Day After Tomorrow looks really cool. Some CG is great, especially that one shot of the twister in the city, and some others aren't so good. Still, the parts that look fake have a hand-painted look to them, which is cool.

Last edited Thu, 6th Nov 2003, 4:28am; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Thu, 6th Nov 2003, 1:58am

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CX3

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I cant wait to see this movie, and im happy thats its the directors of independence day because thats 1 of my fav movies.
Posted: Thu, 6th Nov 2003, 2:00am

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AndrewtheActorMan

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Tim Burton is a strange director....but he rocks and is my fav. director. so dont u dare talk bad about him!
Posted: Thu, 6th Nov 2003, 2:00am

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Pooky

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I didn't say the effects in independance day were bad, they were good, though everything else was bad.... I mean, punching an alien and knocking him out.... right... And I didn't say anything bad about tim burton. razz
Posted: Thu, 6th Nov 2003, 3:44am

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MechaForce

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pooky wrote:

I mean, punching an alien and knocking him out....
Well, obviously having an alien get knocked out is clearly the base for a crappy movie...totally the directors fault too. Heh.
Posted: Thu, 6th Nov 2003, 4:27am

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sidewinder

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Pooky, do you have some deep knowledge of alien anatomy, saying that they can't be knocked out with a right hook straight to the kisser? smile

Seriously, what was actually wrong with the movie?
Posted: Thu, 6th Nov 2003, 2:05pm

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Pooky

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Well no offense again but it's just like armageddon: only Americans love it (with a few exceptions) for the sole reason that it gives the message "we are the best in the world and are the only ones that can save it". And yes I do know enough about those aliens' anatomy to say they can't be knocked out: when they're disecting it, you see the alien is in a big exoskeleton with a small alien inside, thus meaning hitting the exoskeleton doesn't do anything.
Posted: Thu, 6th Nov 2003, 2:09pm

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JohnCarter

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MechaForce wrote:

Well, obviously having an alien get knocked out is clearly the base for a crappy movie...totally the directors fault too. Heh.
Well, Emmerich did write the movie too... So technically, yeah, it would be his fault...
Posted: Thu, 6th Nov 2003, 2:26pm

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JohnCarter

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pooky wrote:

Well no offense again but it's just like armageddon: only Americans love it (with a few exceptions) for the sole reason that it gives the message "we are the best in the world and are the only ones that can save it". And yes I do know enough about those aliens' anatomy to say they can't be knocked out: when they're disecting it, you see the alien is in a big exoskeleton with a small alien inside, thus meaning hitting the exoskeleton doesn't do anything.
I agree with you about the alien punch, pooky. It's another case of internal logic disrespected by the very people who wrote the script and directed it to boot! Actually ID4 is rampant with stupidity like this. Curiously enough (in regards to the "patriotic" tone) it was co-written and directed by a German guy (Emmerich is German). His co-writer, Devlin, is American.

ID4 is a bad rip-off of the miniseries V, and outside of astonishing special effects, there's not much else to it.

And leave the Americans their illusions... Because in real life they keep failing at "saving the world" so they need the movies sugar-coating... Exemples: Too numerous to count but stinging exemples are Somalia, Viet-Nam, and recently Irak...

Not to mention that every single "exploits" from the Second World war are being taken over and "remade" through an American perspective. The more appalling one being U-571, an exploit performed by British officers and soldiers but "remade" with Americans in the movie but using the name of the real submarine... Interesting way of "rewriting" history for the masses, don't you think?

The Americans did do good things in the Second World War. But they were the last to join, couldn't be bothered AT ALL despite the pleas from Roosevelt, until Pearl Harbor! Talk about heroism and generosity! And today they take every single exploit of the Second World War and claim it as American or "made possible" because of Americans... Yeah right.

The American Government does not care about the "world". They care about their own interests first. Look at how they act with the U.N. and their allies. They only consider them when it's time to "pay". The rest of the time, to quote George W., they are "irrelevant". That's why you need International pressure for them to step in when there's mass genocide in countries where there's no oil, but as soon as a tank steps in Koweit, the war boats are filled to the brim with soldiers...

As I said, leave the American Government their illusions... They are the only ones that believe in it.
Posted: Thu, 6th Nov 2003, 4:08pm

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tommach

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Okay,

Enough with the American bashing.

Filmmakers (meaning hollywood) make what they think will appeal to the largest movie audience in the world, and that is the USA.

As for your ungrateful attitude towards the Second World War, if it wasn't for Japan foolishly attacking Pearl Harbor and us being forced into the war, everyone would be speaking German right now.

Yes, our policies lately have been interesting, but we did just lose three thousand plus people a couple of years ago, so we're waving our big stick because we can.
Posted: Thu, 6th Nov 2003, 4:59pm

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JohnCarter

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tommach, First, I am not bashing Americans, I have good friends there. But the American philosophy is perfectly illustrated by your own comments:

tommach wrote:

Yes, our policies lately have been interesting, but we did just lose three thousand plus people a couple of years ago, so we're waving our big stick because we can.
You are perfectly illustrating my point. Nobody denies the fact that the World Trade Center event was terrible and sad. But it's a directly caused by the attitude and the American policy in the Middle East. Yes, the people who did this are crazy lunatics, but they are doing this for a reason: what they perceive as an invasion of their affairs by the American Government for the control of oil...

As for World War II, go back to your History book. Hitler was already dwindling down when the Americans joined the War. I did point out that America did some good things during World War II. What I am against is Hollywood cannibalizing every single good deed and claiming it as "American" or pretending that everything happened because of the Americans, ignoring or "stealing" the efforts of Canadians, Australians, British and God knows who else who also contributed to the war effort and freed countries. The American contribution did help to end the war faster but general sentiment, when you watch an American film about World War II, is America did it all alone... A big fat lie.

That attitude that you can see in a lot of movies, among other things, is what angers, irritate and in the terrorists case, creates a strong anti-American sentiment across the planet... And you can't deny that for years the American Government (notice how I say government, not the people...) only acts in a selfish, self-serving way, because they can, as you point it out, but that doesn't do much good for them, does it?
Posted: Thu, 6th Nov 2003, 9:15pm

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Pooky

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tommach wrote:

As for your ungrateful attitude towards the Second World War, if it wasn't for Japan foolishly attacking Pearl Harbor and us being forced into the war, everyone would be speaking German right now.
Yeah... right. John is right, even if america hadn't helped, Hitler would be dead and no one would be speaking german. Yeah, America was helpful, though not essential.

tommach wrote:

Filmmakers (meaning hollywood) make what they think will appeal to the largest movie audience in the world, and that is the USA.
Er...no. Europe, Canada, the UK, Australia, China, Japan... just to name a few other countries that see hollywood movies...

Last edited Fri, 14th Nov 2003, 9:59pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Thu, 6th Nov 2003, 9:21pm

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sidewinder

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What the hell, Pooky? Quit talking before you make an even bigger ass of yourself.
Posted: Thu, 6th Nov 2003, 9:23pm

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Pooky

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Oh well, I rest my case razz

Sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings. sad
Posted: Thu, 6th Nov 2003, 9:28pm

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MechaForce

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Pooky, you're a retard. MOVIES MADE IN THE US FEATURE CHARACTERS WHO ARE AMERICAN! Think about what you're saying: You want hollywood to make an action movie where aliens attack and the Dutch use their advanced space program to save the world.
Posted: Thu, 6th Nov 2003, 9:31pm

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Pooky

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No, I'm saying that it would be fun if someone else than americans got all the credit for a change...

Last edited Thu, 6th Nov 2003, 9:52pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Thu, 6th Nov 2003, 9:49pm

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JohnCarter

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I think the point Pooky was trying to make was along the lines of this:

There's nothing wrong about ID4 being about Americans... With such a title, what could you expect?

What rub a lot off people the wrong way with this movie is (among many other things) one of the ines in the film:

The world is shown struggling with the alien invasion. Then cut to a desert somewhere where the British are based.

Somebody rushes in and says: the Americans have found a way to take the aliens down! (I am paraphrasing here! Bear with me!)

And what does the English commander say:

It's about bloody time!

In a tone that implies that the whole planet was twiddling their thumbs waiting for the Americans...

Part of the "attitude" portrayed by the American government in regards to its foreign policy...
Posted: Thu, 6th Nov 2003, 9:57pm

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Pooky

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And who knows, if the aliens ever attack, the dutch might be the ones to find a way to beat them... I mean, they've beaten the sea numerous times, and it's not because they're not as rich as america that they can't be intelligent, and the same goes for a lot of other countries.
Posted: Thu, 6th Nov 2003, 10:00pm

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Cyi101

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...getting back to upcoming movies...

I don't know about you guys, but I'm really looking forward to this: http://www.apple.com/trailers/newline/the_butterfly_effect/

I'm a little worried that Ashton Kutcher is in this, but from the trailer, it looks like he might be able to pull off a serious role. Does this movie look interesting to anyone else, or is it just me?
Posted: Thu, 6th Nov 2003, 10:03pm

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Pooky

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Hmm this has got potential
Posted: Thu, 6th Nov 2003, 10:44pm

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Toxic Matter

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I would just like to point out that I'm an American and I don't use Hollywood as my text book of history. I fully understand that the events portrayed in the movie U-571 were not events that the American Military had anything to do with.

I also understand that just because the events portrayed in that movie where not factual, it doesn't make the movie bad. As a matter of fact, I liked the style of U-571, very tight shots and great cinematography. And if I'm not mistaken there was a disclaimer at the end of the film giving credit to the actual military units involved in the Enigma Machines retrieval and the subsequent battles fought by the Allied powers.

JohnCarter has made an excellent film, from what I've seen of it. But just because it's not a factual representation of an actual event, doesn't mean his film sucks. Why is it that a film made in America, primarily for a American audience, about a fictitious alien invasion, on American Independence Day, offends the rest of the world.

If you think your Country should save the world from an Alien Invasion, make your own movie. I would not be offended by your film giving the impression that Canada or any other Country or people save the world from total annihilation. Dang it's only a movie.
Posted: Thu, 6th Nov 2003, 11:04pm

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MechaForce

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pooky wrote:

I mean, they've beaten the sea numerous times.
How many times can you beat the sea?
Posted: Thu, 6th Nov 2003, 11:12pm

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JohnCarter

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I would point out as stated before that I have NOTHING against Americans in general, lived in that country for one year, as a matter of fact. Like everywhere in the world, there is good, bad, great and stupid people in that country... But that doesn't make American foreign policy better.

I sure hope you don't take Hollywood films as history text books because they are inaccurate but it seems to be what passes for education nowadays. You'd be surprised how many people I know, kids and adults alike (and some are Americans!), who thought that U-571 was actually an American affair - hence my outrage! Because except for film geeks like us, nobody reads the credits or the little message at the end. Heck, some even leave before the film fades to black!

I would also point out that I NEVER said that U-571 was a bad movie. I however offered the opinion that blending real facts with fiction in that case by using the exact story but replacing the actual people that did it by Americans was bad taste. If you don't want to be factual, then don't use the real name of the sub, and other such details, and for God's sake don't claim it's based on actual events! That's my beef with that film.

And I don't care who saves the world in the end. The debate wasn't about that. It's about the tone. The perception that is given. If I made a movie where Canadians where the kings of the world and treated the rest of the planet like whimpering, useless imbeciles that depend on Canada for the smallest thing, you'd be offended too. Especially if that message was present in a lot of movies... Unfortunately, it's a sentiment often associated with your government, and even more so in it's current incarnation. And unfortunately, on the world chessgame, your government equals your country in terms of perception. It's the perceived arrogance that rubs the people the wrong way. And it plays a strong part in some films (Bruckheimer's productions have that too but they are better dosed, more patriotic than arrogant). ID4 was just plain stupid story wise and arrogant to boot. And for the record, it made more money WORLDwide than domestically, hence not meant only for the American public... Trust me, if they didn't have the world market to count on, they wouldn't make $100 million dollars movies... They'd never recover their costs in the US alone...

And going back to the day after tomorrow... It was actually shot in great part in Montreal where I live and some of my firends worked on it. From what I hear, it sounds like it'll be good. It was certainly very ambitious and the biggest production ever to shoot here. And the teaser ain't bad. Some effects are dodgy, some are great... But they still have time to make the bad ones look better.
Posted: Thu, 6th Nov 2003, 11:34pm

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Toxic Matter

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I understand your points. But you will have to admit that by correlating all of your grips about my Country from your biased attitude about education, your problem with Hollywood’s stretching of reality, your comments about letting America keep it’s illusions, our inability to save the world, your comments about how we condone genocide in any country that doesn’t have oil, your disparaging comments on U.S. Foreign policy, our inability to have entered World War II in a timely manner, all add up to the fact that indeed you do have a problem with Americans.

When you make comments such as these, and then claim your support of the very people who live under the Government you are talking about, you insult those people. You claim U-571 was an insult because they used the factual number. Now that you have pointed out to me, and all the members of this board how very evil and hated we Americans are, how is it your statements aren’t insulting to me?

I want to apologize to everyone reading this. Including JohnCarter, it was never my intent to discuss anything but Filmmaking on this board. I will let this thread drop.

Again, please accept my apologies.
Posted: Thu, 6th Nov 2003, 11:49pm

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blaine

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Well look on the good side, this post has the most -1 on FX Home biggrin (From whut I know wich is like nuthing) Why dont I get any!?!
Posted: Fri, 7th Nov 2003, 1:46am

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Pooky

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MechaForce wrote:

pooky wrote:

I mean, they've beaten the sea numerous times.
How many times can you beat the sea?
Holland is below sea level, their dams broke a few times etc. but they kept fighting back and stuff, so technically they beat it numerous times...
Posted: Fri, 7th Nov 2003, 2:32am

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MechaForce

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It was a rhetorical question -
Posted: Fri, 7th Nov 2003, 2:44am

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Pooky

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Oh neutral

EDIT: WHOO! I am officially the worst poster ever with -37!
Posted: Fri, 7th Nov 2003, 4:19am

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blaine

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pooky just shhhhhhhhhhhhh just stop wink
Posted: Fri, 7th Nov 2003, 4:24am

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MechaForce

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Holy crap!! He's right! He even beat Edin's Vampire!! And he doesn't even have a plus one yet!!

http://fxhome.com/users/memberlist.php?searchusername=&from=1+Jan+2000&to=now&sortby=3&order=1&limit=50
Posted: Fri, 7th Nov 2003, 4:26am

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sidewinder

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Toxic Matter, don't quit now, that was good stuff.

JohnCarter, about that line where the british say that the Americans have found a way to beat the aliens...

America was the only place to have captured an alien spacecraft, back in the area 51 incident, so therefore it is likely that other countries were informed of this, and were waiting to see if the Americans had found a way to disable the craft's defensive measures. I don't think the movie was intentionally saying that everyone was twiddling their thumbs, and I think that view was brought in more out of personal belief.


Pooky, about Armageddon...America is the only country with a space shuttle program, so it'd make sense that the movie would take place in America. And what is the movie supposed to do with the main characters? Not portray them as heroes? Besides, French movies taking place in France don't use Iranians as main characters. They'd use french people. On top of that, I'd like to know what the nationality of the majority of the world's ocean drillers is.
Posted: Fri, 7th Nov 2003, 4:46am

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blaine

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ha ha this is fun! biggrin oink tard biggrin
Posted: Fri, 7th Nov 2003, 12:38pm

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Pooky

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MechaForce wrote:

Holy crap!! He's right! He even beat Edin's Vampire!! And he doesn't even have a plus one yet!!

http://fxhome.com/users/memberlist.php?searchusername=&from=1+Jan+2000&to=now&sortby=3&order=1&limit=50
Well that's depressing
Posted: Fri, 7th Nov 2003, 1:17pm

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Simon K Jones

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JohnCarter wrote:

I sure hope you don't take Hollywood films as history text books because they are inaccurate but it seems to be what passes for education nowadays. You'd be surprised how many people I know, kids and adults alike (and some are Americans!), who thought that U-571 was actually an American affair - hence my outrage! Because except for film geeks like us, nobody reads the credits or the little message at the end. Heck, some even leave before the film fades to black!

I would also point out that I NEVER said that U-571 was a bad movie. I however offered the opinion that blending real facts with fiction in that case by using the exact story but replacing the actual people that did it by Americans was bad taste. If you don't want to be factual, then don't use the real name of the sub, and other such details, and for God's sake don't claim it's based on actual events! That's my beef with that film.
This has less to do with the fact they were made into Americans and more that it just distorted the real events in an unnecessary manner.

On the flipside of the coin, I should imagine Americans would have been pretty annoyed if Black Hawk Down had been made, but with the soldiers all being British or French instead. smile

When it comes to war films based on true events, factual innaccuracy not only damages the credibility of the film, it is also somewhat disrespectful to the real people that were involved - no matter their nationality, or the origin of the film.


Also, I'd just like to point out that criticising a country's government is very, very different to criticising its people as a whole.


Oh, and, yes, the Day After Tomorrow looks pretty spiffy. smile
Posted: Fri, 7th Nov 2003, 5:11pm

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JohnCarter

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sidewinder wrote:


America was the only place to have captured an alien spacecraft, back in the area 51 incident, so therefore it is likely that other countries were informed of this, and were waiting to see if the Americans had found a way to disable the craft's defensive measures. I don't think the movie was intentionally saying that everyone was twiddling their thumbs, and I think that view was brought in more out of personal belief.
Fair enough - I haven't watched the movie in a while. I'll have a look again. But I'd like to point out I wasn't the only one to perceive the movie this way. People were booing at this point in the cinema when I saw it. As for the other countries being informed of it, they go to great lengths in the film tomake you understand that it was a BIG secret, so I'm not so sure about your argument. But as I said, I'll rent it and watch again.

sidewinder wrote:

On top of that, I'd like to know what the nationality of the majority of the world's ocean drillers is.
A lot of them are Canadians actually... One of the best one is. I'll find the name.


Toxic Matter wrote:

your comments about how we condone genocide in any country that doesn’t have oil, your disparaging comments on U.S. Foreign policy, our inability to have entered World War II in a timely manner, all add up to the fact that indeed you do have a problem with Americans.
Toxic Matter: I don't understand why your are taking this so personally. I am not against America as a whole, but more against your Government Foreign Policies as pointed out countless times already. Unless your are an influent member of the Senate, I don't think you have much say in these matters, do you?

If I go with your logic, all Chinese are evil because their government isn't nice.

As for your government indirectly condoning genocide:

- While six millions Jews were being murdered in concentration camps, and Roosevelt was urging your Senate to join in the International War effort but they couldn't be bothered until Pearl Harbor, that's indirectly condoning genocide in my view. I think Roosevelt did a very decent job of leading your country through these dark times although in my personal opinion, two A-bomb on Japan was too much. One drove the point home strongly enough for the entire world.

- When the Serbs and Croats where killing each other, the U.N. and the international community had to put intense pressure on Clinton to send some of the mightiest military in the world to help them stop the massacre. It took over 2 years for the U.S. government to finally decide to make a move. Millions of people where decimated in the interim. That's also indirectly condoning genocide my friend.

- During the first Gulf War, the rebels from the North of Irak who helped the U.S. were abandonned despite promises made by your government as soon as the war was over. They were decimated. And they knew it would happen. But hte oil was secured so it didn't matter anymore, did it?

But I will grant you this: all countries are ultimately hypocritical when it comes to their interests. During the Rwandan genocide, nobody did nothing. There was nothing remotely economically interesting in that country and the stability of Africa interests no one (unlike the stability of Europe) so the whole world let them kill each other. Same thing with the Sierra Leone. Nobody cares.

On other front, still about dodgy Foreign policies:

- During Afghanistan ten years war against Russia, America trained and armed them, including the infamous Osama Ben Laden. As soon as Russia was kicked out, thank you very much, it was fun, we're out of here, the U.S. Government washed their hands completely of a country that was left in ruins. You did our dirty work, good luck collecting a paycheck to rebuild your house. The Talibans stepped in and made it an even worse situation than during the Russian occupation. Can you blame them for being mad at you? Much more than 3000 people died in Afghanistan my friend. And don't get me wrong: I am not advocating blood for blood, I am trying to point out that while America is angry at the deaths it suffered, it let much worse happen when they were in position of preventing it. But there was nothing to gain from it.

- The U.S. government gives lessons to many countries about their human rights records - especially China - yet never says anything about Saudi Arabia who has no democracy, runs prisons where torture is a daily affair and runs a system of class through a shoddy monarchy. But they have oil. Lots of oil.

Most of these observations you can find in any decent newspaper or History book so I am not talking out of my @$$.

And I could go on about Irak and the Weapons of Mass Destruction that were never found. Saddam was a despot before and after the Gulf War. The U.S. government did nothing about it. He killed hundreds of thousand of it's own citizens. Not a peep. Until the findings about the World Trade Center. Bottom line is this: Most of the terrorists who destroyed the World Trade Center were Saudis. Delicate situation diplomatically when most of your precious oil comes from there, isn't it? So what do we do? We take over the world's second biggest oil depot, an easy target after years of economic sanctions (Heck! The guy barely defended himself - he had nothing left to do it!) and an international ban on weapons. Trust me, as soon as they'll stabilize the country, your gasoline will come from Irak my friend, not Saudi Arabia.

My point is this: as the most powerful country in the World, America (and in the World perspective, America is it's Government, not it's individuals) has the duty to act responsibly and respectfully, otherwise it comes across as a bully, which breeds terrorism. As tragic as the terrorists act against your country are, they are brought upon your country as a direct result of your foreign policies and your government general disrespect of international allies and international organizations, like the U.N., a view sometimes displayed in some of your movies, which brought upon this lengthy argument.

I hope you understand better my point of view (I am not asking you to agree with me! wink ) and as you said, let's leave it at that. Fair enough?
Posted: Fri, 7th Nov 2003, 6:31pm

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Mellifluous

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I agree all countries are hypocritical, look at the Third World, & the fact that 70% of the world's income belongs to 10% of the world's population.

There's lots of injustice in the world & the only point that I'd like to make (I don't want to flame the debate) is that as long as people are informed, & make themselves aware of what's going on socially & politically, then I'm optimistic that the world can get better. Knowledge is power.
Posted: Fri, 7th Nov 2003, 7:14pm

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Aculag

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Pish posh. All of it. Everyone knows that the greatest country ever is the Undiscovered Country that lies far below the surface of the earth. They also have the catchiest national anthem.

"I am a citizen of the undiscovered country.
I toil and sweat under tyrrany and hatred!
I am proud to represent my forefathers,
By making a mockery of the flag that I live by.
O! Undiscovered country! O! Undiscovered country!
You're going to be the death of me!"

Catchy, man.
Posted: Fri, 7th Nov 2003, 7:45pm

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Cypher

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pooky wrote:

Well no offense again but it's just like armageddon: only Americans love it (with a few exceptions) for the sole reason that it gives the message "we are the best in the world and are the only ones that can save it".

Dude, i'm not american nor am i the biggest fan of the country, and i loved armageddon. dont speak when you don't know what you're talking about.
Posted: Fri, 7th Nov 2003, 8:49pm

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Sollthar

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er.... I like the trailer..... Emmerich is cool.... rolleyes

*looks around at lots of people discussing something else and runs off* crazy
Posted: Fri, 7th Nov 2003, 8:52pm

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Pooky

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Cypher wrote:

pooky wrote:

Well no offense again but it's just like armageddon: only Americans love it (with a few exceptions) for the sole reason that it gives the message "we are the best in the world and are the only ones that can save it".

Dude, i'm not american nor am i the biggest fan of the country, and i loved armageddon. dont speak when you don't know what you're talking about.
ur in the exceptions smile. no, just kidding, what I meant is that a lot of people don't like it for this reason. ok anyway, I don't wanna say anything else because I might get another -1.


EDIT: too late
Posted: Sat, 8th Nov 2003, 6:42am

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Aculag

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Pooky, you're only saying that now because people are telling you that you're wrong. And you only made your statement in the first place because you were trying to act tough. It didn't work, and you were wrong. So silence.
Posted: Sat, 8th Nov 2003, 6:52am

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sfbmovieco

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Hey JohnCarter, yes we get out oil from Saudi's and the Arab countries...But we shouldn't...Because nature activists won't let us drill in Alaska, where there is so much oil! That is why we bought Alaska...Plus I think your view of WW2 is a bit off..6 million jews were killed, but before pearl harbor, that many may not have been killed or even known to average joe senator. While all politicians, no matter what political affiliation are at times dodgy, I think your BROAD judgement of american politicians that you just barely mention from 60 years ago is a little bit fishy.
Posted: Sat, 8th Nov 2003, 10:10am

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Mellifluous

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No one could have known the extent of the crimes of Hitler's regime until after the war, & it is easy to talk about it with hindsight, but I think I'd be right in saying that American politicians probably had about the same amount of information as the British politicians had, & this information was enough for the government to decide to declare war.

I think your BROAD judgement of american politicians that you just barely mention from 60 years ago is a little bit fishy.
I glean from what you're saying that you don't like people saying things without substantiating their facts, & knowing their stuff. Well, I totally agree. If you're going to say something about oil, or WW2, you should know what you're talking about. With regards to oil, which is important to everyone, because it basically runs our civilization, I recommend having a holistic understanding of the issues:

- where it's found; who owns it; who has monopoly of it; how much it costs; what effect getting it out of the ground has on environment, people, wildlife & climate; & how long the earth's oil resources will last.

You can't look at one aspect of oil without the others, or anything without looking at the bigger picture. People have spent to long doing that.

You mention Alaska, & how the American government bought it for oil. I get the impression from your post (forgive me if I'm wrong) that you disagree with the nature activists. If you do, why? Do you see their point of view, etc?

I don't know much about Alaska, except that in the course I'm doing I've learned that the Innuit eskimo live there (well, I knew that already razz ). One fact stuck with me though - that many wildlife die from toxic pollution in Alaska & all over the arctic. This is due to the sea currents, toxic matter from all over the world eventually ends up in the arctic.

My view is that everyone all over the world has a point of view, & if you try to see from a multitude of povs then that's great, but if you only see the world in one way, & how it affects you & you alone, then that's being irresponsible. Think of some of those crap Merovingian lines from Reloaded, they do have a point.

This isn't aimed at anyone, & if I'm sounding preachy I don't mean to redface [/code]

ANYWAY, let's change the subject. This post was about a film...

It looks pretty good, I find the editing interesting, how it cuts from the archive looking footage to the crisp looking real life scenes.
Posted: Sat, 8th Nov 2003, 5:14pm

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sidewinder

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Change the subject? But I haven't had my say yet. smile

First off, to pooky...

"...A lot of them are Canadians actually... One of the best one is. I'll find the name. "

Using JohnCarter's info, did Armageddon say what the nationality of every oil driller was? All I remember is that they all spoke english, and two or three of them had houses in the United States. Some of them could have been Canadian, therefore making Pooky's comments lack substance.

Anyways, on to the big stuff...

JohnCarter, when you say you aren't against American people, just their government, keep in mind how involved people are in politics over here. Besides voting, many people contact congressmen and other officials, campaign for candidates, and run for government offices. I know a few people who have run, held, or currently occupy a governmental office, including offices on the state level. You said "I don't think you have much say in these matters, do you?", when in fact, we do.

Also, your counter logic of "all Chinese are evil because their government isn't nice." Doesn't fit the situation, because the Chinese government is a communist one, not run or elected by the people. When you insult the American president, you insult those who support and uphold his principles.

-

"...but they couldn't be bothered until Pearl Harbor..."

Pearl Harbor did not bring America into the European side of the war. We had merchant ships trading with allied nations, and the Germans threatened to attack them. We were in fact selling arms to Britain, so if the Germans had any regard for strategy, they would start torpedoeing our ships...which they did. That's when we started fighting in Europe.

Also, we weren't just sitting here, twiddling our thumbs while Europe fought. Before we started sending soldiers to the other side of the Atlantic, we gave Britain fifty battleships, basically for free, when Germany was attacking with their U-boats, and winning.

Pooky's idea that Hitler's army could have been defeated without American help is stupid, but on the other side of that, we couldn't have done it without Britain, or Canada, or Australia, and so on.

And I don't see how you can blame Aerica for wanting to stay out of the second world war.

-

"When the Serbs and Croats where killing each other, the U.N. and the international community had to put intense pressure on Clinton..."

So why would you be against the Iraq war? Woulnd't that be justified as a humanitarian effort?

"As soon as Russia was kicked out, thank you very much, it was fun, we're out of here..."

...Yes, I'm sure that's exactly what the politicians collectively said...

I do agree that wars shouldn't be fought halfway. We should've taken down Saddam Hussen back in the early 90s, and we should have worked with Afghanistan to rebuild as well. But I disagree idea that it is America's responsibility to protect the world from humanitarian crises. A government should act in it's own interests, as that's the whole point of a government. Of course, when carrying out military actions, they need to be done right in order to avoid the backlash of opinion.


"...yet never says anything about Saudi Arabia..."

Wrong. Many people in America are angry about Saudia Arabia's actions, and I read articles on Saudi arabia all the time in opinion magazines. The current administration has started taking steps to put pressure on Saudi Arabia to shape up, unlike the last one. In fact, there were commercials on TV paid for by Saudi Arabia, trying to improve public opinion of their country. Of course, it sounded a lot like propaganda...

"...when most of your precious oil comes from there..."

Actually, we only get 20% of our oil from there.

-


"As tragic as the terrorists act against your country are, they are brought upon your country as a direct result of your foreign policies"

Really? It doesn't have anything to do with our way of life or laws that offend fanataic muslims? The Taliban makes laws about women in public, and we have feminist organizations? There's no hatred against America because it is the most successfull country in the world? Our quality of life is much higher than anyone in Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia, but you don't think that plays into any of it? People hate other people because they are rich, and you don't think that the fact that I myself have more money than most people in Afghanistan breeds anger and jealousy? You don't think it could have anything to do with government progpaganda? Hatred is taught in schools, and lies are portrayed as news. Isreal is presented as the enemy of the Arab world, and don't forget that Isreal is an American ally.

About one year ago, we had a lady from Morocco stay at our house. We started talking about current situations in the middle east, such as the Isreal-Palestinian conflict, and terrorism. When we got onto the subject of 9/11, she asked me why I didn't think Jews "did it". She said that there was no proof against Osama Bin Laden, and that Isreal did it in order to foster hate against muslims. When I brought up the money trails, video tapes, and other facts linking Osama to the attack, she said they were lies from the government.

America hasn't been militarily involved in Morroco, and yet this kind of thinking is spread throughout that country. The foreign policy of our government is a small part in a bigger picture.


-


And don't get me started un the U.N., which is an un-democratic, beureaucratic mess that apponts countries like Syria and Cuba to the human rights commitee.

Last edited Sat, 8th Nov 2003, 5:18pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Sat, 8th Nov 2003, 5:16pm

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sidewinder

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wow, that's a lot if typing. crazy


A side note to pooky and Coldfuse: see my good grammar and spelling? smile
Posted: Sat, 8th Nov 2003, 6:46pm

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Mellifluous

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Really? It doesn't have anything to do with our way of life or laws that offend fanataic muslims? The Taliban makes laws about women in public, and we have feminist organizations? There's no hatred against America because it is the most successfull country in the world? Our quality of life is much higher than anyone in Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia, but you don't think that plays into any of it? People hate other people because they are rich, and you don't think that the fact that I myself have more money than most people in Afghanistan breeds anger and jealousy?
Just felt I had to come back with a couple of points.

America isn't the only country out there that has these characteristics; most of the western world are prosperous, have feminist movements, better qualities of life, hygiene, food, housing etc. Not to forget Asia & Australasia. So really all developed countries should be targeted, shouldn't they? But that hasn't happened.

One reason I believe that some people hate the US is because of the effect of US based businesses/corporations have on their countries, demanding gruelling labour at little expense. Or they set up shop in the country, on the condition that they get tax cuts, so their presence does not actually benefit the country economically.

America has made enemies in the middle east because of its support for Israel, probably because of the Jewish connection between the two countries. It's difficult to see which is in the right but I think there's probably propoganda contributed on all sides, by Israel, Palestine, & the USA.

All countries produce propoganda, even the USA & my beloved Great Britain, the case of Jessica, the soldier who was proclaimed a heroine by the Pentagon et al, being a case in point. Now, I'm not using that against the US because there is a valid reason, rallying the troops, keeping spirits up etc, but one thing that this teaches is that people in government are not averse from distorting truths.

And they certainly don't always act in the people's best interests, either. In their own interests maybe, but not their peoples'. I don't know what you think of your present leadership but they're not thinking of all your interests & the future. In about 50 years time oil supplies will be drained & there will be no long term alternative renewable energy plans, mark my words, because they have refused to take part in them. In contrast, the Indian government is doing the best it can, with the limited funds it has. People are still in poverty, due to debt (sometimes there are huge famines where everyone is starving & food is available, it's just being sold to US & European markets), but at least they have projects & ecological government officers that seem to be initiating change.
Posted: Sat, 8th Nov 2003, 9:14pm

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sfbmovieco

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sorry mel...but...that last post...



While some countries are successful, many people do not like the overtly democratic style of our government (Asian countries and UK are successful, but the UK has a more socialistic government like many Euro countries, while Asian countries have a more communistic and also socialistic style of government.) So you could make an arguement that they are successful, but are the people happy? I'd say a good amount of people in America are happy, and if they are not, they are in control of their own destiny, and have the ability to change.

As for Palestine and Israel...When Clinton was President, Palestine got an offer to get 90% of the land they wanted. While neither side has their hands clean, when Palestine didn't take the very lucrative offer, it was abundantly clear they just wanted to kill 'jews.'

As you will soon find out, Lynch is producing her own propaganda that is turning out to be false. She was knocked out for three hours, so I highly doubt she is authorized to write about the time she was knocked out...But guess what? She did!

And as for saying that oil will be gone blah blah. Well why does this rest solely on Bush's fault? No other country gets oil from Arabs? Clinton didn't get his oil from there? The hipocricy in hating Bush is getting old guys. It's almost cliche to hate America. So why not start a new trend and stop pickin on the people who are trying to piece their country together. A government that is not constantly changing for the peoples needs is just wrong. And I believe America is constantly changing. I believe Locke said that the purpose of government is to protect the rights of the people. While no government is perfect, I feel very safe in my country...Peace out.
Posted: Sun, 9th Nov 2003, 7:21pm

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Mellifluous

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Which bits are bullshit?

I don't know what you're saying about Jessica. So, she's producing her own propoganda? SO WHAT?...what's more serious, the fact that the government produced propoganda, or that she could be telling a few porkies?

As for the oil issue, your reaction to my point seems infantile, I wasn't condemning the government for buying oil, I was condemning the fact that they aren't taking any measures for supporting energy alternatives when oil will inevitably run out. In case you don't know, there was a world summit in Africa about this issue, & the US government was the only country who didn't sign up to an international government agreement supporting sustainable energy, or antipollution schemes. Countries like Sweden already have sophisticated renewable schemes, & Britain is about to build 500 new wind generators off the coast.

If you're accusing me of hating America & Bush, then you're deeply wrong. That's an accusation I hear thrown about a lot. If someone disagrees with an action of Bush, or any American, they always get accused of hating America, hating Bush, or being unpatriotic. I've heard interviews on American radio where journalists have quizzed politicians about war & oil & Jessica & the politicians have frequently accused the journalists of being un-American if they don't like their questions.

I'm not picking on you either. I respect what people have gone through, empathise & feel their emotions.

Criticising Bush's motives & business links (which I dislike because they reflect badly on his actions) is not criticising America. But I feel I'm within my rights to criticise Bush, because of facts. I've looked at him closely because he was elected in a contradictory way, within a democracy but in a controversial manner. And it's not wrong to criticise government. They're there to be given feedback by the people they're supposed to represent.
Posted: Fri, 14th Nov 2003, 12:34am

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sfbmovieco

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How was he elected in a contradictory manner?
Posted: Fri, 14th Nov 2003, 12:50am

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MechaForce

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Because Al Gore won the popular vote in the US and Florida, but due do false absentee ballots and 10,000 ignored votes in Florida, with help from his Brother & Company, Bush won Florida gaining the extra electoral votes he needed to beat Gore.
Posted: Fri, 14th Nov 2003, 5:19am

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sfbmovieco

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Hahahahahahahahahha. Read up on who the false votes were really for...Especially when chads were found all over the floor and then Al Gore suddenly claimed a lead..

And oh yah, the popular vote means nothing because as we all know, a president is chosen based on the electoral vote, which has been occuring since our very first president. Sorry democrats, but we will not change the entire structure of our voting and the constitution for Al Gore. tard

And while it certainly may be controversial, I do not find it contradictory since George Bush won the electoral vote and was then elected President. For it to be contradictory wouldn't it have to contradict something? What does that contradict?
Posted: Fri, 14th Nov 2003, 5:46am

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cantaclaro

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Completely correct...And honestly...who would really want Al "The Robot" Gore as president?...I'm sure he would have done a real bang up job with kickin' Afghany ass after 9/11...I claim no political party...but I do believe that Bush is doing a good job so far...and I hope he continues...

Canta unsure
Posted: Fri, 14th Nov 2003, 6:22am

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CX3

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I still think clinton was a really good president. So what, he had some fun with monica.. people needed to give the man a break and some privacy ha.
Posted: Fri, 14th Nov 2003, 6:34am

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sfbmovieco

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CX3, I would agree if cheat on his wife was all he did. But he not only lied to me and all the American public about it, he lied to a federal grand jury..Which for most U.S. citizens would mean jail time. What does Clinton get? To be one of the most popular presidents of the past 50 years...No politicans are completely honest, but the way he has been glorified..And that people still listen to him about his opinion which is no more important than a regular citizens opinion is a little bit over the top...Flame on wink
Posted: Fri, 14th Nov 2003, 7:22am

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cantaclaro

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If you look at the stats...The US economy has been dive bombing ever since the second term of Señor Clinton...So Shrub sort of stepped feet first into Clinton's giant shitake pile...Clinton did nothing but help all of the crybabies...get a damn job and stop taking money from me...Remember all of the criminal's and crap he pardoned 15 minutes before the Shrubs moved into the White House???

Shrub=Baby Bush

Canta unsure
Posted: Fri, 14th Nov 2003, 1:14pm

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Mellifluous

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Ok, replying to your post about why it's a contradiction. This requires a bit of explanation.

Sorry democrats, but we will not change the entire structure of our voting and the constitution for Al Gore.
Actually, you did, for George Bush...

A few months before the election, the republicans hired a private company, DBT, to remove felons off the electoral roll. A lady called Katherine Harris was at the head of this operation.

They decided to delete all felons from the roll, plus anyone in Florida who shared surnames, similar dates of birth & gender with known felons all over the country. tard

DBT did want to run cross-checks to ensure that these people were in fact felons but they were directed not to by Harris & others.

Computer records of some of these people wrongfully excluded show that, bizarrely, they haven't commited their crime yet; a record shows one guy is going to commit his crime in 2007. I don't think we are quite in the land of Minority Report yet!?

Another Florida incident was the counting machines breaking down. Instead of continuing a hand count, Katherine Harris ordered that hand counting stop & the result would be as it was then.

Figures show that over 8,000 were wrongfully excluded from voting. I'm talking about the official election & not the popular vote. Bush won Florida by 537 votes.

If you think that these are democratic circumstances in which to win an election, then you have a jaded view of democracy.

The democratic thing to do in such circumstances would have been to have a hand count, & count the votes of the people who were wrongfully excluded. People who were Americans like yourself, & who have a constitutional right to vote, like yourself.

Such a process may have taken time, & may not have changed the result of the presidency, but it would have been the right thing to do.

And it's a contradiction because these circumstances contradict the whole concept of democracy. Allowing everyone to vote. Letting the people decide. Some Americans were not allowed to decide.
Posted: Fri, 14th Nov 2003, 5:36pm

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jjuerss

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I don't usually get involved in these flame wars but I have just one comment to make to all you Bush lovers out there.

If the US had more liberal Presidents like Clinton et al and fewer radical nationalist Presidents like Bush Snr and Jnr then maybe, just maybe, things like the September 11th attacks might not have occured, there would be peace between the Israelis and Palestinians and less hate for western nations from the people of middle eastern nations. If the US press were really free, then the people of America would understand this. I make these comments as a neutral outsider and avid amateur historian. Mark Hertsgaard wrote a fascinating book on the subject, "The Eagle's Shadow: Why America Fascinates and Infuriates the World". Written by a patriotic American who was determined to find out why much of the world hated America.

I urge all of you with strong views, either way, to look at the bigger picture and ask yourselves why things are the way they are. Then seek out the truth in an unbiased and open minded way. I did this and this is why I hold the views I do.

As a German, I was brought up to be very careful about expressing political opinions and to always back up statements with fact. This is a lesson all Germans learned after the despicable events in Germanys 20th century history. Unfortunately, the American right wing movement (Republicans) hasn't learned this lesson and I will leave others to draw their own conclusions from this.

That is all I wanted to say on the matter and I will say no more.
Posted: Fri, 14th Nov 2003, 6:02pm

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Cypher

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Sorry to break your bubble jjuerss...but there's no such thing as peace....
Posted: Fri, 14th Nov 2003, 9:54pm

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MechaForce

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BUT! He's right about Clinton and 9/11. If Clinton would have had a third term as president, either 9/11 would have not of happened, or there would have at least been a concious effort to prevent it. If someone doesn't believe me, I don't care because you would have to spend time reading and it would be a waste of my time to talk to you unless you really knew what was going on.

But he not only lied to me and all the American public about it, he lied to a federal grand jury
Bush technically lied to the U.S. public, the U.N., and other countries all around the world about several key pieces of evidence about the war in Iraq, whether he conciously knew it or not. Though not everything he said was a lie, many things he said he knew were false - or at least the people who wrote his speeches did. But moving on...

Who would really want Al "The Robot" Gore as president?...I'm sure he would have done a real bang up job with kickin' Afghany ass after 9/11...but I do believe that Bush is doing a good job so far...and I hope he continues...
That's really arrogant, and who would really want George "The Chimp" Bush as president? We kicked the some Taliban ass (w00t), and we more or less skedaddled cause we needed the troops in Iraq (where all the REAL terrorist are). Other than ousting the Taliban (pWNZ JOO!) and messily removing Saddam (haXX0rz), what has Bush really done that was good? Attempt to ban all abortions? Try to cut all sex ed.? Wasted trillions on worthless (well, worthless for 60% of Americans...) tax cuts?

--

And what's wrong with being for peace? Just because it may not ever be a reality until everyone is dead, doesn't mean you have to be gung-ho about wars. Everyone is for peace. If you're not you are crazy and are a danger to everyone. However, blowing shat up is always a good option for when peace doesn't work!

PS:
If you look at the stats...
*Looks at stats*

The US economy has been dive bombing ever since the second term of Señor Clinton
WRONG!

The economy did not dive. The dives were in '29 and '87. And it was only really during the last year or so of the Clinton administration. And it was because of internet investors realizing how stupid they were to invest in banner ads. Clinton didn't hurt it or help it after the ol' dot com dealy. Same with Bush and our current economy. But those tax cuts could've been used a lot better.


And don't respond to this message until you've researched enough to figure out that I'm right.
Posted: Fri, 14th Nov 2003, 10:11pm

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sfbmovieco

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To me, it seems that all you show is opinion. And since it's not worth my time either, I won't go over it again and just post my opinion. So I guess I'll just leave it at that.
Posted: Fri, 14th Nov 2003, 10:46pm

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MechaForce

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It would take many pages for me to explain what you'd need to know to understand why 9/11 would have been less likely under Clinton. I'll summarize it for you since you're lazy.

The official war on terrorism began in 1993 under Clinton when the WTC was bombed the first time. He and a few other people drafted what was to be a pure Department of Homeland Security (that was the name too). Republicans at the time thought it was going to be a waste of time and money, and since they had the majority, stopped it from passing. However, his administrations plans for counter terrorism worked. Within weeks of the first WTC bombing, all of the suspects had been caught, and an extra 20 verified Al Qaeda members were caught. Thoughout the 90's, Al Qaeda was monitored with Clinton's counter terrorism agencies, and had recieved evidence that bombers were likely to get the WTC again using planes as bombs. In 2000, Bush halted the programs Clinton had been using, and only a handful of the people were kept. Through January to September of 2001, the remaining people, working with the CIA, knew of all the soon to be hijakers, and knew that some of them were attaining pilots licenses. They warned the Pentagon and the Bush administration, but they did nothing. The rest is history.

On a side note: you know how fighter jets are supposed to escort planes back to a runway if they are headed towards a major city? And how that if they come with a certain range, are ordered to shoot them down? 2 planes headed straight for NYC, one for the straight for the pentagon. I guess 2 hours isn't enough time to look at a dot and figure out which way it's moving.

Just after, members of the Bin Laden family were rounded up on private jets and set over to the middle east, before the Osama was mentioned in the news.

Fact! Everything I've said is fact. I'm not talking number or statistics. I'm talking about what actually happened. The only "opinions" of mine are when I say people are arrogant or lazy. Or chimps.

And when I say "Clinton" or "Bush", I'm referring to the people who work for them, and were appointed by them.
Posted: Fri, 14th Nov 2003, 11:02pm

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MechaForce

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This movie looks cool! I can't wait to see it!!1!!!!!!!!

INDEPENDENCE DAY pWNzz JOO!1!!!
Posted: Fri, 14th Nov 2003, 11:04pm

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sidewinder

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Dammit, this topic is PISSING me off. Sam, you were wrong earlier about the election, and Mel, it still smells like bullshit. Jjuerss, your view is so contorted that I'm not sure it will ever straighten back out.
Posted: Fri, 14th Nov 2003, 11:27pm

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MechaForce

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Please explain.
Posted: Fri, 14th Nov 2003, 11:53pm

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sidewinder

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I will. I don't have a moment right now.
Posted: Fri, 14th Nov 2003, 11:55pm

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sfbmovieco

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jjeurs...wow...You say you dont have a side, but all you do is rip into republicans. At least I say where im coming from.
Posted: Sat, 15th Nov 2003, 11:32am

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Mellifluous

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sidewinder wrote:

Mel, it still smells like bullshit.
Ok, whatever.

But I do not say something lightly. And if it's bullshit, it's truthful bullshit, & can verified to be truthful bullshit. And yes, it reeks.
Posted: Sat, 15th Nov 2003, 4:25pm

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sidewinder

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No, I'll prove it smile I've just been really busy, and won't have a moment until Monday.
Posted: Sat, 15th Nov 2003, 5:35pm

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JohnCarter

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I must say I'm siding with Mecha on that one because I've read and seen (on TV - including interviews with the guys from the Clinton commission on terrorism telling how they tried and tried to warn both the Pentagon and the Bush administration of what was coming...)

But I am anxiously awaiting your own explanation Sidey...

It's bound to be an interesting debate. wink
Posted: Mon, 17th Nov 2003, 4:04am

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sfbmovieco

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Yah Carter, because the tv and newspapers are 100% truthful...
Posted: Mon, 17th Nov 2003, 4:19am

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MechaForce

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Just because newspapers aren't 100% truthful doesn't mean they're not truthful at all...
Posted: Mon, 17th Nov 2003, 7:15pm

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JohnCarter

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sfbmovieco wrote:

Yah Carter, because the tv and newspapers are 100% truthful...
And you think governments are? Still waiting for those weapons of mass destruction, buddy?

You are so naive.
Posted: Mon, 17th Nov 2003, 8:11pm

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sfbmovieco

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Whatever makes you sleep better at nite john, go ahead and think that. But once the war is gone and done with, and with our vastly improving economy, I dont see how any of the democratic contenders stand a chance...
Posted: Mon, 17th Nov 2003, 10:49pm

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Mantra

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Would just like to point out that the 9/11 attack in New York was an attack on 'The World Trade Centre' and alot of countries lost citizens, I think around 40 countries. I have my closest friends living in the US, yet one victim lived only 3 miles from me here in the UK, so lets not forget that though the attack was on US soil, it was an attack on the World population not just America.

Just wanted to make that point.
Posted: Tue, 18th Nov 2003, 2:04pm

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JohnCarter

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sfbmovieco wrote:

But once the war is gone and done with, and with our vastly improving economy, I dont see how any of the democratic contenders stand a chance...
How many of your people have to die for that poorly planned war and "reconstruction" effort? When are you gonna hit the front and defend your ideals?

It's easy to talk big behind a computer screen, it's another to dodge bullets for your ideas...

When you can back up your speeches, I'll respect you... It'd be nice to see you argument instead of your semi-coherent ramblings. I'd like to see intelligent, articulated opinions from you for a change. Maybe it'll help me make up my mind. For now, you are just reinforcing my already poor opinion of republicans...

And don't worry about my sleep pattern... It's doing fine thank you.