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Lightsaber shadow

Posted: Tue, 23rd Dec 2003, 10:01am

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fertesz

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Does anyone have any idea, how make lightsabers shadows little more realistic? Maybe, how to add some shadow over that existing (we heave stick shadow already), so there's complete lightsaber shadow, not only core.
Thanks in advance!
Posted: Tue, 23rd Dec 2003, 10:15am

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pboniface

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Lightsaber.... realistic.... ?? Okay, I get what you mean..

but really, all real physics aside, should lightsabers (being a light source themselves) cast shadows...

Ideally, when you are filming the scene you should have in your mind who is using what colour and then use a couple of bright lights to flash the actors with every wave of the lightsaber..

You will get shadows behind the players, as though the saber was casting them, and a coloured glow upon your actors from the sabers themselves..
Posted: Tue, 23rd Dec 2003, 10:34am

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fertesz

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Thanks biggrin
I think that all this is very difficult, becouse even in Star Wars I noticed few light problems, for example in Anakin - Dooku fight.
As for realism: lightsaber do cast shadows. They are a source of light, but far too weak. It's like with some kind of neon, or other light in form of stick, if you watch the ground under it, it casts shadow, becouse it's light is not enough. Same with lightsabers. cool
Posted: Tue, 23rd Dec 2003, 10:35am

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TMM

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Lightsabers wouldn't cause a shadow - because they are light, light can pass right through them - there was a big debate/post on this about a year ago, was quite interesting...

The only reason neon lights cast shadows, is because they are made of glass razz and that blocks a small amount of the light coming from, say the sun for example, so there is a slight shadow, but lightsabers are pure light (except for the hilt razz) and so, light passes through them, with nothing to block the light to form a shadow...

TMM twisted
Posted: Tue, 23rd Dec 2003, 10:43am

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fertesz

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Yeah, but you have to notice, that you can't see through them. If you can't see through them, that means that light can't pass through them. Everything that you can't see through, casts shadows. cool razz
Posted: Tue, 23rd Dec 2003, 10:48am

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TMM

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heh, i see your point, but that doesn't always work...

How can light cast a shadow? you can't see through it because it's so bright (so bright that whateva colour it is, it's always pure WHITE in the middle) you can't see through a neon light (when it's switched on) and it only JUST casts a shadow - mainly from the glass, metal etc inside it - so, if a lightsabre is pure light, it isn't going to cast a shadow...

If you shine a big light through an ON lightbulb, you will only see the shadow of the glass, and the metal bit etc, the light itself won't cast a shadow but, you can't see through it if it's on, because of the light (depending on how powerful you bulb is)...

TMM twisted
Posted: Tue, 23rd Dec 2003, 11:00am

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fertesz

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Yeah, but I wonder, can light from several sources interfere? For example, does laser cast shadow? Lightsaber is very bright, but not strong enough to iluminate surroundings. So, if light can't pass through it, there would be shadow.
But to be honest, I don't really know if one strong light can interfere with another, and if, in what degree redface
Someone wise?
Posted: Tue, 23rd Dec 2003, 11:06am

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TMM

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Rating: +1

Well, to my understanding - and with a little help from blueshift in chat - if you could have an invisible lightsource (like a sabre blade) and u shone another invisible light source through it, it would just double the amount of light coming out the other end...

This means that if you shone a big light (bright enough to be noticeable) through a lightsabre then things on the other side of the lightsaber would be brighter...

A good way of seeing this theory, is using a 3d prog (obviously not real) if you place a light behind another light, and position a few boxes around, you can see that the boxes have different levels of brightness - obviously this is only a 3d prog, and isn't real life, but it's a similar principle...

However, because lightsabers aren't actually real, i guess it's the choice of the creator of the movie (such as yourself) to decide whether they should cast shadows - guess it would add a little bit of 'personality' to the short smile

TMM twisted
Posted: Tue, 23rd Dec 2003, 11:13am

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fertesz

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Thanks a lot TMM! biggrin
Now I have a little wider view on this topic razz
Well, I've seen some projects of construction of the REAL lightsaber (theoretical), perhaps I can wait few ( razz ) years and see in practice wink
Or perhaps anyone of you here at fxhome has a laser at home and can tell me about it's shadow? wink
Merry Christmas!
Posted: Tue, 23rd Dec 2003, 11:49am

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pboniface

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Technically, a laser would not cast a shadow it is only an RF waveform in a visible spectrum and not a solid object.

In order to see a laser the surroundings have to be darker than it, otherwise it is "drowned" out by the stronger source of RF in the vicinity (A brighter light. It is only where to energy is stopped that it reflects both sources of energy (A stage actor lit by two spotlights rather than one is reflecting twice as much RF energy).

For an example, watch the commentary on the "Goldfinger" DVD, the famous "Cut in half by a laser scene" they had an actual laser on set for the effect , but by the time all of the set lights were on, you couldnrt see the laser, so they had to add it in post.
Posted: Tue, 23rd Dec 2003, 11:54am

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fertesz

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Thanks a lot pboniface! That's the piece of scientifical knowledge I needed. So, if laser wouldn't cast shadow, lightsaber wouldn't too.
Ya, it definetely has to be on darker surroundings, if you ever tried to make lightsaber, for example on sky, you know this wink
Posted: Tue, 23rd Dec 2003, 12:15pm

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AndrewtheActorMan

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heres a way to test it out sorta...

get one of those nice flood lights and hold it in the air....can you see the flood light's shadow?

no...

problem solved.
Posted: Tue, 23rd Dec 2003, 12:19pm

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fertesz

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Even if you keep it near the ground?
Well, I trust you Andrew smile
Posted: Tue, 23rd Dec 2003, 12:50pm

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TMM

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well, with modern day technology you can't really prove it, you need an invisible light source, which we don't have the technology to pull off - i.e the little metal bit and the glass on a bulb needs to be invisible...

But, the laser thing is true, i suppose if you had a really bright lightsource, lightsabers would be invisible - that'd make an interesting battle wink

TMM twisted
Posted: Tue, 23rd Dec 2003, 1:06pm

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fertesz

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Try to film lightsaber battle with only plain bright sky in background. Blades will be invisible, or almost. Better pray that your opponent is dressed in dark wink wink wink
Posted: Tue, 23rd Dec 2003, 2:03pm

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AndrewtheActorMan

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now here is what you should be asking...

How do lightsabers clash together and push like swords...like in a lock, or something to that effect, instead going through? Light can't be 'touched' so-to-speak. Your hand brightens up and goes through the light..

Remember, that flood light, that light (not the bulb) is not solid, so take your hand and go through the light...does your hand go ZAP! have a large CLASH! and hurt? or does it just say, "hmm...its lighter than it was a second ago?


hehehe

basicly, this is a bunch of non-since


Andrew biggrin
Posted: Tue, 23rd Dec 2003, 2:08pm

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Pooky

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Not only that, but light doesn't just stop after about a meter, it would continue on and on until it disappears.

Heh, Imagine a fight with endless lightsabers smile
Posted: Tue, 23rd Dec 2003, 2:21pm

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TMM

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AndrewtheActorMan wrote:

now here is what you should be asking...

How do lightsabers clash together and push like swords...like in a lock, or something to that effect, instead going through? Light can't be 'touched' so-to-speak. Your hand brightens up and goes through the light..

Remember, that flood light, that light (not the bulb) is not solid, so take your hand and go through the light...does your hand go ZAP! have a large CLASH! and hurt? or does it just say, "hmm...its lighter than it was a second ago?


hehehe

basicly, this is a bunch of non-since


Andrew biggrin
Urm, lightsabers are essentially lasers - lasers can cut through all sorts of stuff - ok slightly differently than lightsabers, but essentially the same principle...

Also the 2 products from an electrical light like this are LIGHT and HEAT, so essentially, if you could get the light to produce enough HEAT you COULD burn through things! razz although, this isn't exactly how lightsabers WOULD work...

Pooky wrote:

Not only that, but light doesn't just stop after about a meter, it would continue on and on until it disappears.

Heh, Imagine a fight with endless lightsabers smile
Yeah, i said that earlier - maybe if they hold a really tiny mirror infront of the beam at the end wink

TMM twisted

Last edited Tue, 23rd Dec 2003, 2:23pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Tue, 23rd Dec 2003, 2:23pm

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fertesz

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Search the net, you can find some quite realistic projecsts of lightsaber. Everything is nice (it wouldn't be endless, it would cut things), but they need great amount of power and very small mechanism razz
But project is ready razz razz razz
Posted: Tue, 23rd Dec 2003, 2:24pm

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Pooky

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Unlikely, where? Can you give a link?
Posted: Tue, 23rd Dec 2003, 2:25pm

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AndrewtheActorMan

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but lasers dont clash into each other, they pass through each other.

hehehe...does it seem funny that we are all arguing about a fictional object? Thats the funny part...

Stop and think - we are all arguing about a light saber...


Andrew biggrin

(just had to say it)
Posted: Tue, 23rd Dec 2003, 2:26pm

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TMM

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fertesz wrote:

Search the net, you can find some quite realistic projecsts of lightsaber. Everything is nice (it wouldn't be endless, it would cut things), but they need great amount of power and very small mechanism razz
But project is ready razz razz razz
Bare in mind these projects aren't like the lightsabers we see in star wars - more like advanced lazers!

TMM twisted
Posted: Tue, 23rd Dec 2003, 2:28pm

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TMM

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AndrewtheActorMan wrote:

but lasers dont clash into each other, they pass through each other.

hehehe...does it seem funny that we are all arguing about a fictional object? Thats the funny part...

Stop and think - we are all arguing about a light saber...


Andrew biggrin

(just had to say it)
I wasn't arguing, i was just stating about the heat thing, i know they don't clash etc, i was just saying the part that COULD be true...

TMM twisted
Posted: Tue, 23rd Dec 2003, 2:30pm

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AndrewtheActorMan

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i know we werent, but we were, i guess, thinking about...donno

Here is tutorial to make a light saber.... http://members.rogers.com/m.hayward/lsaber/howtobuild.html wink maybe..

PS: Is it just me, or are these forums 'hot' today? people are posting up a storm!
Posted: Tue, 23rd Dec 2003, 3:03pm

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ssjaaron

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hey he is right thier is already a shadow for the light saber which is the stick from the origanal shooting. but they might need to make a light saber shadow for when it egnights.
peace out
hope that helps
Posted: Tue, 23rd Dec 2003, 6:09pm

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AndrewtheActorMan

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let me sum this up...excuse me.














WHAT EVER THEY ARE, A LIGHT, A LASER, A INVISABLE LIGHT - IF ITS A LIGHT SOURCE (which it is), IT WONT HAVE A SHADOW OF ITSELF!

thank you, have nice day.

Andrew biggrin biggrin biggrin
Posted: Tue, 23rd Dec 2003, 7:29pm

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fertesz

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I found this after quick search in google, but no time to read it razz
Nevertheless, sounds interesting:
http://www.exn.ca/starwars/plasmasaber.cfm
http://www.exn.ca/starwars/lightsaber.cfm
Make something like that, and we'll see about shadow wink twisted wink
[edit]
So, and what about plasma shadow? twisted twisted twisted
Posted: Tue, 23rd Dec 2003, 9:34pm

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4036Douglas

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OK, here's my understanding of it.
-In the original sw movies there were shoadows, so lightsabers now have shadows.
-Lightsabers are made of plasma.
Posted: Tue, 23rd Dec 2003, 10:09pm

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TMM

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i don't recall seeing any such shadow, plus if there were it's probably because they didn't have the technology to successfully remove the shadows in post without it looking all burred and icky (like under the landspeeder) razz

TMM twisted
Posted: Tue, 23rd Dec 2003, 10:22pm

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pboniface

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Okay..

question..
has anyone ever downloaded a film, looked at it, thought .."Well, the FX were great, the choreography was good, the acting wasnt bad.. it had a story... and yet something troubles me... the fact that the sabers had shadows really sucked.. so I will give it a 1 out of 5"

answer...

not as far as I am aware..

Putting these facts to one side for a moment
1) A beam of light only a metre long is impossible
2) A Solid beam of light is a physics impossibility
3) If they did exist, a light source (Even plasma source) would cause shadows and not cast them.

If you film actually has a story, the fx are done well and it is filmed and edited with love and care then I for one coudnt care less if there were extraneous shadows..
Posted: Tue, 23rd Dec 2003, 10:37pm

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TMM

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pboniface wrote:

Okay..

question..
has anyone ever downloaded a film, looked at it, thought .."Well, the FX were great, the choreography was good, the acting wasnt bad.. it had a story... and yet something troubles me... the fact that the sabers had shadows really sucked.. so I will give it a 1 out of 5"

answer...

not as far as I am aware..

Putting these facts to one side for a moment
1) A beam of light only a metre long is impossible
2) A Solid beam of light is a physics impossibility
3) If they did exist, a light source (Even plasma source) would cause shadows and not cast them.
Have you read all of this topic?

1. has been covered - yeah, impossible...

2. it isn't a solid beam of light (if by solid you mean like wood or plastic), that's the point - they are similar to lasers, we have discussed this...

3. only works if 2. is true, but it isn't so that makes no sense...

also, they don't exsist - this is all theoretical...

And yeah, i see your point about the fact people wouldn't rate it bad because of a shadow - buy, some people like perfection - i wouldn't want to make something and think "ah no one will care that that's in there, so i won't bother doing anything about it" obviously, if you can't help it, then leave it in, but, if you want to remove shadows - even if noone notices - it's upto you - also, it's an interesting topic even if you're not talking about movies - we briefly mentioned them starting to investigate them in real life - and we have looked at examples from real life...

EDIT: also, i have a book that shows the 'blue prints' to a lightsaber and explains them and how they work - they are LIGHT, not PLASMA - obviously this is an impossibility - maybe not in the future - but, that's what they are in the fictional realm of the films...

TMM twisted
Posted: Tue, 23rd Dec 2003, 10:46pm

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Pooky

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TMM wrote:

they are LIGHT, not PLASMA
That is why they are called LIGHTsabers smile
Posted: Tue, 23rd Dec 2003, 11:21pm

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Kyeju

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There was just an arguement about this at tfn. The closest real thing you are going to get to a lightsaber is a flourescent light tube. Even if they give off shadows, which I dont think they do, I think that shadows on lasers and lightsabers just looks stupid.

When you are doing effects for something that has no real world counterpart to referance should you go with what looks good or with what is "realistic". That is the real issue. I always go with what looks good because if you wanted every movie to be completely realistic you would have to remove every scene in every movie that was ever shot at night. Because you cannot just shoot a night scene without having extra lighting. So in my opinion go with what looks good.
Posted: Wed, 24th Dec 2003, 8:46am

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fertesz

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As for realism, check out those links I had given. You have there about limited blades, cuting things etc.
But in general, think you're right, that they wouldn't cast any shadow, even though I'm still wondering... Well, it's definitly up to director (and possibilities he have).