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Reflections

Posted: Mon, 16th Feb 2004, 12:24pm

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goober99

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Jonathan is a student at Woodward Christian Academy. He has been assigned in speech class to memorize Psalm 24 and give it as a speech. As he is practicing, his reflection gives him a few pointers.

Every year Woodward Christian Academy attends the Accelerated Christian Education's Student Convention. Students can compete in over 100 different competitions at Student Convention. One of those competitions is a Scripture Video. The assigned passage for this year is Psalm 24. This short was produced by Woodward Christian Academy in the school library for that Scripture Video competition.
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Posted: Mon, 16th Feb 2004, 8:21pm

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FiveIronFrenzy

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You know...I had Psalm 24 memorized when I was 3!!!

I can't remember it now! I would look at your video...but my satilite is down, I'm running on dial up! mad Good thing to see another christian on this site. I love you other guys too!

Peace,

-Nathan
Posted: Mon, 16th Feb 2004, 8:54pm

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Gibs

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That makes three of us. smile
Posted: Tue, 17th Feb 2004, 1:37am

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Pooky

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four
Posted: Tue, 17th Feb 2004, 2:13am

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Frozenpede

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Parents are missionaries, Ive been raised with the truth and now I recognize it for myself ( I know everyone claims to be one but Im for real) Since there are others christians on this site, Im curious is anyone else outraged by this thing in San Fransisco?
Posted: Tue, 17th Feb 2004, 2:23am

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Pooky

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What thing, and what kind of Christian is everybody? I'm Baptist (protestant).

EDIT: oh, the gay marriage thing. Yeah, I sure am.
Posted: Tue, 17th Feb 2004, 3:00am

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Gibs

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Church of Christ. I haven't heard anything about the stuff in San Fran, though.
Posted: Tue, 17th Feb 2004, 3:20am

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Pooky

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Church of Christ... sorry if this is rude, but is that a kind of Christian? I only know of Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestant.
Posted: Tue, 17th Feb 2004, 4:25am

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Gibs

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Church of Christ is a Protestant religion. Pretty similar to Baptists except for various doctrine (read "generally unimportant") issues.
Posted: Tue, 17th Feb 2004, 9:19am

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Solid Snake

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trash, trash, trash, trash, trash, trash, TRASH!!!

filthy trash!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

booooring, i get more excitement out of going to the pub and playing pool, on my own, or watching an m. night shamalyan film!!!

try harder next time

smile
Posted: Tue, 17th Feb 2004, 6:43pm

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FiveIronFrenzy

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The gay marriage is going WAY too far. I think that the world's end is coming soon, therefore, things will downfall. Reading revelations, you can see many prophesy that are coming true. The two nations (Israel, and Palistine) are going to war. The evil ways of peolpe, and the acceptance of sin is greatly increased.

The only thing that will be amassing, is the uprise of the anti-christ. That will be the day, when all true christians will know that this 'leader' is the anti-christ. All others will be totally oblivious to his intentions.

P.S. I'm batist. I believe that the Church Of Christ is a bit different, but still are christians (I may be mixed up). biggrin

And I thought I was the only christian on this site! The only bad thing is: My youth group stinks!
Posted: Tue, 17th Feb 2004, 6:53pm

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Frozenpede

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Five Iron, I kinda thought that you might be when I saw your name (its a christian band) but they have secular fans too so I wasnt sure.
Posted: Tue, 17th Feb 2004, 7:07pm

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cantaclaro

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Frozenpede wrote:

Five Iron, I kinda thought that you might be when I saw your name (its a christian band) but they have secular fans too so I wasnt sure.
I was thinking the same thing.

Canta unsure
Posted: Tue, 17th Feb 2004, 7:11pm

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Frozenpede

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man, its too bad its doing so poorly with the ratings! sad
Posted: Tue, 17th Feb 2004, 7:15pm

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FiveIronFrenzy

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Yeah five iron has a lot of secular fans....the are 'frenzyish'! I have not watch this movie. My satilite is still down. unsure
Posted: Tue, 17th Feb 2004, 8:32pm

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Frozenpede

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I just watched it on dial-up (its only 2 mb so dont worry) at last there is a movie with plot! Its kinda boring but its an interesting plot.
Posted: Tue, 17th Feb 2004, 8:54pm

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Fight

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FiveIronFrenzy wrote:

The gay marriage is going WAY too far. I think that the world's end is coming soon, therefore, things will downfall. Reading revelations, you can see many prophesy that are coming true. The two nations (Israel, and Palistine) are going to war. The evil ways of peolpe, and the acceptance of sin is greatly increased.

The only thing that will be amassing, is the uprise of the anti-christ. That will be the day, when all true christians will know that this 'leader' is the anti-christ. All others will be totally oblivious to his intentions.

You sicken me.

Cheers,
Fight.
Posted: Tue, 17th Feb 2004, 9:00pm

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Frozenpede

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ok, why does that sicken you? I totally agree with Iron, look at the lack of morals and the downward spiral our world is in. Its only a matter of time. Even science proves it! Everything in the world proves that there is a God, you cant deny it, its fact (every SCHOLAR thats tried has failed to disprove it) and since its fact then we have to turn to the Bible and the Bible agrees with what Iron said.
Posted: Tue, 17th Feb 2004, 9:17pm

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sidewinder

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Our world is not in a downward spiral, and morals have definitely been increasing. Crime is dropping, poverty is going down, life expectancy is going up, resources are increasing. Check out some stats.

Not to say I disagree with the apocalypse and all, but I think your jump onto the doomsday bandwagon is a bit rash.

Oh, I'm Catholic, to all those who care.
Posted: Tue, 17th Feb 2004, 9:39pm

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Frozenpede

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ok yeah the world is not in a downward spiral, but it IS just a matter of time. Heres some proof for Christianity

1.) History- Christianity is the only major religion that does not have historical errors, every city and race mentioned in the Bible has either been proven to exist or can not be proven either way.

2.) Human Behavior-Despite vastly different histrories and climates, all humans have similar characteristics ( all have a natural desire to be right in an argument, all have natural possesive nature, all love etc) so there has to be something linking them all together (God)

3.) The Disciples Perserverance- Jesus was beaten untill he was bairly recognizable and all 12 of his desciples wathced this happen. However, even after having seen Jesus' torturous death all 12 continued to share the word. Had Christianity been a hoax or a joke then those 12 would not have been willing to suffer the way they did, there had to be something that they had seen and heard that convinced them that Jesus was the savior.

4.) Sceince- this is my worst subject so i dont remember all the details, however Creation Science is one of the oldest sciences known to man and has yet to be proven wrong (and science is always being proved wrong so that is an acheivement to apriciate)

The fact is that we dont know when God is coming back, but he is and may even be before Im done writing this, or it may be in a hundred years, but he's coming.
Posted: Tue, 17th Feb 2004, 9:40pm

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jetaimaster

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<i>Our world is not in a downward spiral, and morals have definitely been increasing. Crime is dropping, poverty is going down, life expectancy is going up, resources are increasing. Check out some stats.

Not to say I disagree with the apocalypse and all, but I think your jump onto the doomsday bandwagon is a bit rash.

Oh, I'm Catholic, to all those who care.</i>

you are not looking at the media i suppose
u used to not be able to have half naked girls running around kissing each other on tv
now look at britney spears and madonna

now look at our children
they are following the icons ways

dont tell me we aren't going downwards
u are just trying to shield ureself from reality
Posted: Tue, 17th Feb 2004, 9:48pm

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Pooky

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Ok, the resources are going way down: (This is a FACT I saw on Discovery Channel) in 20 years, there will be no petrol left in the world if we continue this way. Nuclear Plants? It would take decades to build enough. Solar power? We would need hundreds of thousands of square kilometres. Liquify other fossil fuels (choal, gaz...) we would only last another 100 years at the most.


Ok, for all you anti-christians out there, consider this:

If you are not christian:

If you are right, and there is no god, you win nothing, as you just die.
If you are wrong, and there is a god, you lose everything, as you go to hell.

If you are Christian:

If you are right, you win everything, as you go to heaven.
If you are wrong, you lose nothing, as you just die.


Scary, huh?
Posted: Tue, 17th Feb 2004, 10:24pm

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Gibs

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Five Iron Frenzy: I think that you're running in circles trying to literally interperet Revelation. It's all a bunch of allegories and stuff. And besides, the morals of the world have been getting worse and worse all throughout time. And I don't think anybody will know when the "anti-christ" comes, not even Christians, because it is written "you do not know the day or the hour (Matthew 25:13)". I imagine that many people thought Hitler was the anti-christ, but they were wrong.

I'm not lashing out at you, I just think you may be interpereting some things wrong.

And the statistics don't mean anything, really. They do not tell what is in people's hearts, or what there morals are. What upsets me the most is how lax most people's morals are.

Frozenpede wrote:

Even science proves it! Everything in the world proves that there is a God, you cant deny it, its fact (every SCHOLAR thats tried has failed to disprove it) and since its fact then we have to turn to the Bible and the Bible agrees with what Iron said.
You're right about that. The probability that this universe could have been created by chance, and be ordered like it is, is "One to 10 to the 10th to the 30th, which is a number so big it would take you over a billion years to write the number if you could write 1 million zeros a second! And even though the world is getting worse, morally, as time goes on, I think it is ignorant to state that the end is near. If you need another verse to back that up, check 2 Peter 3:10.

This is a very interesting discussion. smile
Posted: Tue, 17th Feb 2004, 10:42pm

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pboniface

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Religious is a personal very personal thing.. I dont mind if you believe whatever you believe... christian, buddhist, moslem, hindu or satanist.. that is up to you... what bothers me is people who believe it is their right to force their beliefs upon me.... I have free will, I choose to trust science...

the argument about every place and fact in the bible being true.. hmmm.... Every place, maybe..... but every place mentioned in Ian flemings "Goldfinger" was true... you dont hear anyone in the world preaching about James Bond.....?? Go figure...

Every Fact... Proved.. I think not..... Disproved.. not either....so there is no wrong or right, only conjecture and organised religion, the biggest hoarder of historicat treasured, Land and Paedophiles in the world..

If there isnt a god and you die.... well.. you just die..
If there is a god, and you dont believe in him and you die... well...He's all forgiving isnt he... so, I will just say "sorry" and it'll be okay..
If the buddhists are right, then I want to come back as Britney Spears Bycicle Saddle....

Now.... anyone care to talk about movies..?
Posted: Tue, 17th Feb 2004, 10:50pm

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Gibs

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You're right, not every fact of the Bible has been proven, it would be stupid to say that it is. I can understand why many people are not Christians, and it is innaccurate and prideful to say that "every single thing in the world proves Christianity and it would be stupid not to be a Christian."

Yes, God is all forgiving, but if this was the whole story, would any Christians have morals at all...?
Posted: Tue, 17th Feb 2004, 11:06pm

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Frozenpede

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http://forums.superteam.biz/viewtopic.php?t=225

this is a sub-christian movie I made (it dosnt make a strong stand)
Posted: Tue, 17th Feb 2004, 11:09pm

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Frozenpede

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Is anyone looking forward to The Passion of Christ?
Posted: Tue, 17th Feb 2004, 11:42pm

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Gibs

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I am. Our youth group is going to go see it together the Friday after it comes out. It'll be interesting to see if it accurately portrays what happened to Jesus when he died. From what I've heard, it does.
Posted: Tue, 17th Feb 2004, 11:44pm

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Sollthar

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Hm, I'm an Atheist and eat christians for breakfast, so maybe I'm not welcome to the club. smile



The film itself was a bit... hmm... The acting made it boring really. If it was meant to make fun of christians, it would have been funny due it's wooden way. But as it seems to be serious, it just needs improvement.

The fx were okay, allthough the keying could have been a lot better, as it was obvious even in this resolution.

The story itself didn't tell me much, I get bored easily when someone reads out of the bible, so I'm maybe not the right person to comment on that. smile
Posted: Tue, 17th Feb 2004, 11:45pm

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Pooky

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It's supposed to be a bit less perfect than the other Jesus movies where he is clean and barely bleeding. This one is how it was.
Posted: Tue, 17th Feb 2004, 11:51pm

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Hybrid-Halo

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Rating: +1

Where did you get the porn music from?
Posted: Tue, 17th Feb 2004, 11:56pm

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Frozenpede

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In an interview Mel Gibson was asked why he didnt dumb down the violence and he said " I did". Man people better get there barf bags ready! biggrin
Posted: Tue, 17th Feb 2004, 11:57pm

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Sollthar

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Hm, violence... I might go see this film too even though I couldn't care less about jesus. But Mel Gibson made Braveheart, so I can hardly imagine the film will be bad...
Posted: Tue, 17th Feb 2004, 11:57pm

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Pooky

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Hehe
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 12:01am

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Frozenpede

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well according to the Bible, Jesus was wipped until only flesh was visible so if this is accurate the weaklings will be in for a surprise. One book that would make a REALLY violent movie would be Judges from the Bible.
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 12:03am

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Sollthar

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Hm, sounds good... smile
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 12:13am

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Frozenpede

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biggrin you should probably do it Sollthar! (make Judges) aguy gets a stake driven into his head biggrin or better yet do David's 50 special soldiers. One of them took on 400 guys! biggrin
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 12:17am

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Pooky

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biggrin Three biggrin 's in one post... must be a new record biggrin

Heh biggrin
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 12:20am

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Frozenpede

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man wouldnt one of those be sweet on film though?
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 12:24am

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Gibs

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Yeah, but you wouldn't want to make it too bad. And there would have to be some sort of Biblical message in there, or else it would just be another senseless violent action film. Worse, because that would be sort of hypocritical (if a Christian made it).
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 12:25am

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Sollthar

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I will watch it on DVD probably... I doubt I can watch a film about jesus in cinema. Even if it's violent and made by Mel Gibson.
But I have a general dislike against religious movies. On DVD in can fast forward the parts that have anything to do with god.
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 12:42am

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FiveIronFrenzy

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Rating: -3

lloyd66, yes I am going in circles sorry!

The world is not go to just end right now! I was not saying that, just the world is going to end, and the morals are going down the drain. That fight dude is gay
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 12:49am

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Gibs

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Rating: +1

Five: He has different beliefs, and while I don't agree with them either, calling him "gay" because he isn't a Christian doesn't seem very Christ-like. Just try to remember that you are an ambassador...

Sollthar: I'm not sure if there are any parts that won't have to do with God. But the whole movie is in Aramic, and you will probably be able to turn subtitles off. smile
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 12:59am

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FiveIronFrenzy

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O thought he was openly admiting he WAS gay?

I am so sorry...I did not see what I was saying!

Sorry Fight! frown frown frown frown frown frown frown
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 1:10am

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sidewinder

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Ok, the resources are going way down: (This is a FACT I saw on Discovery Channel) in 20 years, there will be no petrol left in the world if we continue this way. Nuclear Plants? It would take decades to build enough. Solar power? We would need hundreds of thousands of square kilometres. Liquify other fossil fuels (choal, gaz...) we would only last another 100 years at the most.
That's completely wrong, and I hope you realize that, Pooky. We have enough oil, at the current rate of consumption, to last us 234 years. Consumption has been continuously decreasing, meaning that the figure will likely be higher. If we used less pure oil sources and by-products to make gasoline (albeit, less efficiently), we have 800+ years. Keep in mind that none of this takes into considderration that new oil is likely to be discovered.

And secondly, no resources are truly "going down". It's surprising, but look at any trend over the past decades, and you will see that the current supply of basically any resource you can name has actually increased, rather than decreased.

I'm not even going to set foot in the willfull ignorance of many of the atheists out there.
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 1:13am

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Pooky

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Hrmm, first time Discovery Channel is wrong...
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 1:14am

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Gibs

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Five: I'm not sure if that was sarcasm or not. I'm not trying to shut down everything you say, just trying to be a good example. (Sorry if it came across differently) smile
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 4:22am

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sidewinder

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Pooky, not the first time you're wrong. smile

Go back and examine what they really said, and who said it.
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 4:22am

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voiceoverwizard

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pooky wrote:

Hrmm, first time Discovery Channel is wrong...
Hardly!
You just sit there and listen to the very intelligent sounding announcer and the compelling pictures and assume that what they are saying is fact. When the reality is these are films or video productions. Just like any other film it is made by a person(s) who have opinions and agenda's. Don't think for one instant that if a film maker thinks that we are destroying the planet and during the research he finds strong evidence to the contrary he would put it in his film with an equal amount weight as the evidence that supports his predisposed position. If you watch the Discovery channel, and believe it, you probably think that the in the USA urban sprawl is ruining the forests, nevermind the FACT that there are more trees in the US now than there were in 1776. For example (not discovery channel)just look at the so called documentary by Micheal Moore called Bowling for Columbine, whether you agree with Mr. Moore's position is not really relavant, all that matters is that the entire film is loaded with false impressions and some very good editing that covers up the fact that some of the stuff was completely fabricated. WHY? To support his position and agenda with out regard for facts or truth. This is exactly the type of people making the things you see on the Discovery channel.
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 5:09am

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goober99

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I am really surprised at all the response this video has generated.

I have no hidden agendas. I make videos that correspond with my worldview. Since I am a Christian and that effects my entire life, my videos are going to reflect that.

Because of the large response, I want to give other Christian filmmakers a way to join with other Christian filmmakers to help encourage and promote the creation of Christian videos. I am calling this The Harvest Project. That is a name I thought up really fast, so it may change. I don't know what it will by exactly yet. It will be a group of Christian filmmakers. I am going to let it be your project.

Check it out now and use the form to tell me what you think.

The Harvest Project
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 10:49am

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Sollthar

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I didn't think I was gonna say this, but actually, pooky is right for once...

The worlds reserves of gas/petrol are not gonna last this century, they are almost extinct (With the US being the biggest consumer, by the way).
At least thats what they teach you at the Z├╝rich ETH, and they're not discovery channel...
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 10:52am

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Simon K Jones

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I'm with Sollthar on this one. I'm not sure where you've been getting your info Sidey...but it seems to contradict just about everything we know in the UK.
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 12:42pm

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Pooky

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Ha! biggrin

Oh and the guy that said it was a proffessor at a University, and now about 4 Universities (only one I remember is Harvard) are trying to find an alternative energy source.
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 2:38pm

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anonymous

The movie was a bit dull and stiltled. While I am an atheist and don't find biblical stories my cup of tea, I still think that stories from the bible, or any other holy book, can be made engaging if, as with all movies, they have characters we care about and messages that pose an interesting dilemma. Just making a film about dogma gets boring quick.

As for some of the other postings in this thread, specifically the ones about religious beliefs, I will point out that either all of the world religions are wrong or one of them is right. As for proving god exists, well, I can't prove a negative, which means the onus of proof is on the believer and all honest believers must admit that they cannot prove god exists scientifically. Strong and deep faith is not the proof of a god, science is.

Anecdotes of spirits, ghosts, visits from dead relatives, and miracles all need to stand up to the light of scientific scruticy if we want to live in a society where objective observable science means something. Without science as our guide to the known and still unknow all we have is conjecture and fantasy where anyone can claim almost anything. If someone says, "I fell god in me. I feel Jesus's presence." That may be powerful to the individual, but it is hardly proof of an almighty being.
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 2:56pm

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anonymous

That was me. ....thought I was loggen in but wasn't.


I would just like to add that it is really difficult to make an objective statement about the perceived lack of morals as people throw in lots of their personal biases about what is right or wrong, including myself. My mother, a devout christian, whom I love, is constantly telling me how things are going to hell in this country. She is mostly upset about gays getting the right to marry. She also says morals are at an all time low. I remind her that when she was young it was considered acceptable to make blacks sit in the back of the bus or make them drink from a separate water fountain. This from people that went to church every Sunday. It's always amazed me what is done in the name of religion. She doesn't like to reminded of those things in the past.

Democray, the type practiced here in the U.S., and in most of Europe, is a messy thing. It's messy because in a healthy democracy you need to let adult people practice and say things that may not be popular to the majority. My christian friends would love to have a U.S. that is governed by the dictates of the bible, a U.S. that would recognize the majority of christians that live here. I see great peril in that possibility. I am reminded on places like modern day Iran and the recent past of Afghanistan where all of the daily comings and goings of the people are monitored by Sharia law of the Koran. Is this what we want? A theocracy?
I hope not, because then people like myself, would not find a place for open dialog and discussion.
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 2:57pm

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Xcession

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To clarify what Guest has illustrated, everyone has a sense of spirituality. Everyone (bar psychopaths) have a sense of social well-being, duty, pleasantry, etiquette etc. ie: doing good to your neighbour, not stealing etc.

As another athiest, i don't believe that i need a god, or any other almighty being, to tell me how to live my life by these blindingly obvious rules of social thumb.

Just because someone has spirituality, just because they felt a rush of endorphins after having helped someone in a personal way...does not mean those endorphins were god.
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 2:57pm

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Sollthar

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heh, you stil aren't logged on. biggrin
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 3:06pm

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Sollthar

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In case you want to hear another atheists opinion:

I don't believe in god, because I believe in logic. And even though I have no answer to the questions "where do we come from?" or "where do we go?" etc, I don't believe in god. Because the christian god cannot stand the rules of logic one second. There are too many contradictions that only make sense if you are not able or not willing to apply the even basic rules of logic thinking.
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 3:09pm

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Xcession

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i think its about now (after people have raised the ol' scientific and logic reasons) that most debaters taking the side of religion will pull out the somewhat blackmail-like "well then you wont go to heaven" card.

Its sad really, but the number of times i've had these discussions, and have ended up being guilt-tripped into being made to believe something i don't, is astounding.

[it is of course totally ilogical that a benevolant god wouldn't allow you into heaven if you didn't believe, even if you'd lead a good life, but i won't get into that]
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 3:18pm

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Sollthar

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I had the same Xcession


Allthough none could ever explain to me why I would have to go to hell just for not believing in god... It's not like I killed someone or would be a bad person.

But the thought comforts me really... If a god really exists and he gave me a free will and then punishes me for my only crime being not to believe in him, I would prefer hell...
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 3:39pm

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Joshua Davies

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I would like to think there is something greater out there, but I don't support any religion I've encountered so far.

The fact that there is more than one suggests there is something wrong as they can't all be right or wrong. Every religion has been distorted so much over time by people trying to use them for their own ends (war/money/power) - therefore what we have now seems almost worthless to me.

Gay marriage - go for it.

Gay marriage while claiming you are of a religion that is against it doesn't work. It comes down to whats more important to the person in question - their religion or their sexual preference.

Thats what I think anyway.
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 4:17pm

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Gibs

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Xcession: I respect you're right to your opinion, and am not going to play the "you won't go to heaven" card because it would be hypocritical for me to try to force you into my religion. But although God is benevolent, if you read the Bible you will see why it isn't illogical (from the religious side), because God understands that we will mess up. That is why he is forgiving. But for someone to deny Him all their life, and then expect Him to just forgive that, is not logical.

Sollthar: From the world's standpoint, you've done nothing wrong. But from God's standpoint, it's not just that you didn't believe in Him, but that you (like everyone) has sinned. Heaven isn't a place that you get a free ticket to just because you believe there is a god. You have to try to do what God commands in the Bible.

Like all the fighting going on over religion in Ireland. Anyone who thinks that they are "fighting for God" is horribly mistaken, because God wants peace, not fighting. Just believing means nothing, because even the devil and his demons believe in God, but they certainly don't follow his commands.

Scwar: You're right, if people want gay marriage, they're fine to it, but as a Christian and a moralist, I do, at the very least, wish that it wasn't allowed and that people wouldn't do it. I greatly dislike all types of sin, but I know that it's going to happen, so making a big ruckus is doing nothing good at all.
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 4:20pm

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Xcession

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So what you're saying is that God is just a self-obsessed egotist? If he isn't acknowledged to exist by some people (by virtue of the free-will he instilled in us to be able to choose what we do or don't believe)...he stamps his feet like a petulant child and doesn't let us into heaven?

I'm not sure i want to be part of this infantile God's plan, frankly!
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 4:23pm

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anonymous

This is Ragnar. My employer has the cookies turned off so I can't login. I was Guest a view posts ago.

Anyway, I really feel that gay marriage is going to be a reality soon in the U.S. Even our relatively conservative Supreme Court recognizes the blatant foolishness of denying two same-sex adults the right to be together in marital bliss, if that's what we can call it. By striking down the Texas anti-sodomy law last summer they paved the way for the fall of this antediluvian law. Hey, who are we to say what two consenting adults do in their own lives. I think this anti-gay vibe stems from people invisioning the act; it grosses them out. It's nothing that consenting men and woman haven't been doing since Sodom and Ghamorah. Sorry, couldn't resist that.

Anyway, I would like someone to demonstrate to me how exactly two gay people would ruin your neighborhood, school, or church. What exactly is it that they fear? Are you worried they might touch you, try to recruit you, hit on you? I would suggest people who fear gays get to know one. It's always easy to hate the unknown. As I tell my students here at the high-school I teach at: You don't have to love your neighbor, though that would be nice, but you do have to respect their space and their right to exist within our laws.
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 4:26pm

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Simon K Jones

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Lloyd66 wrote:

Xcession: I respect you're right to your opinion, and am not going to play the "you won't go to heaven" card because it would be hypocritical for me to try to force you into my religion. But although God is benevolent, if you read the Bible you will see why it isn't illogical (from the religious side), because God understands that we will mess up. That is why he is forgiving. But for someone to deny Him all their life, and then expect Him to just forgive that, is not logical.
OK, that is vaguely logical, if a bit unreasonable.

However, what about agnostics? They don't deny God in the slightest. They simply take the sensible point-of-view of "I don't know".

Sitting on the fence is usually a cop-out, a waste of time and a haven for weak people. However, when it comes to the existence of God, sitting on the fence seems to be the only sensible place to be.

Oh, and yes, I'm agnostic. razz
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 4:27pm

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Sollthar

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I totally agree with xcession there.


And I don't want god to "forgive me". Because I have not done anything wrong by not believing in him. I am not looking for his forgiveness. In fact, he should be the one who should ask me for forgiveness.

In case he actually exists and all nonsense christians say is true, it was HIM who gave me a free will to believe or not... It was HIM who gave me the mind that tells me he doesn't exist... All that makes me who I am is HIS creation... And then he punishes me for it?

If that is the case, then I'd call god something I won't write in here because it would be censored anyways.
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 4:29pm

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JohnCarter

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Being "gay" is very much biological it seems.

It's a phenomenon observed not only in humans but fairly widely spread in the animal world as well, including monkeys and even dogs. Statistically, a certain percentage of the animal population is "gay"... Jeez, the same happens with humans too... Could it be the work of God???

I am an atheist as well but I tend to respect people who believe in something more because it is their right and I don't have all the answers and I happen to believe that those people don't either, so we're even. I however lose respect when these people try to force upon us their beliefs. They say that God gave us free will. But if you don't believe in him, you burn for eternity. Now that's pretty petty, immature, childish and cruel. And where is my free will? I don't really have free will if I'm destined to die if I don't believe... There's too many conditions and catch-22s to call this free... So you know what? I'd rather die than be forced to believe in something I'm not confortable with...

God says love the other like yourself... Except if he's gay or lesbian? Why would there be exceptions? These people are exercising their free will. Why does it bother Christians? Christians aren't gays, are they? So what is the fuss about? These poor gay people face hell when they die anyways, why do they have to suffer more while they are alive? Why do they have to suffer prejudice, ridicule and the like for something most of them have likely ingrained in their genes, as it is the case with all those wild animals nobody bothers when they try to have sex with their same sex buddies?

I think it's more frightening that some priests feel that they can have sex with children (and sometimes homosexual sex! God forbid!) and yet they will be forgiven by God because they are Christians???

The Bible has been as misinterpreted as the Coran to favor agendas of shady people. It's own teachings are at odds within the same book. As Sollthar says, it doesn't withstand much logical thinking...

But if people choose to believe in it and that very fact makes them happy and fullfilled, I say good for them. If people are "gay" and that makes them happy, well good for them too. They don't deserve to be insulted, jsut as Christians don't deserve it either for choosing a lifestyle, a belief or a sexual orientation. Think about it: If the whole world was homosexual, it would be the heteros the pariahs... Would you like to be treated like gays are treated just because you happen to like something that is different than the norm?

EDIT: I wrote this WHILE you guys filled up half the page. Sorry if some of it seems out of context now.

Last edited Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 4:36pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 4:31pm

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Xcession

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amen
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 4:33pm

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JohnCarter

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Lloyd66 wrote:

Scwar: You're right, if people want gay marriage, they're fine to it, but as a Christian and a moralist, I do, at the very least, wish that it wasn't allowed and that people wouldn't do it. I greatly dislike all types of sin, but I know that it's going to happen, so making a big ruckus is doing nothing good at all.
Lloyd, you have a very grounded and respectful approach to all this. I appreciate it. But I would like you to elaborate more on your reasons for being opposed to gay marriage. I am curious to see your point of view on this.

If God understands that we will mess up and is forgiving, why cannot he accept that gay people wants to get married? They are in the end only people, not demons!
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 4:36pm

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er-no

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/me doesn't get involved

smile
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 4:40pm

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Sollthar

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Heh, smart move er-no


I shouldn't have either... But... I was weak... smile
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 4:42pm

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JohnCarter

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Sollthar wrote:

Heh, smart move er-no


I shouldn't have either... But... I was weak... smile
Sinner! wink
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 4:43pm

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Xcession

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You Die! You die and you burn in hell!
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 4:43pm

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Sollthar

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Heh, yeah... But I'll go to hell anyways, so what the hell... wink
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 4:57pm

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anonymous

Ragnar.


I hope that when I get to hell I can still make my silly Star Trek fan films. Maybe hell will have really kick-ass equipment. Hey, it will be a little hot, but as long as our CPUs have giant cooling fans we still should be able to edit down there. Lighting won't be a problem as we will have acces to all sorts of flames and the like. The sets will really be neat too, what with the boiling oil, rocks, torture champers, and lava. I just hope I'm not wrong and it is cold in hell as I hate winters, being a Wisconsinite.
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 5:14pm

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FiveIronFrenzy

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If you guys like to debate, why don't you do to the christian leadership/debate/worldviews/back up your faith camp I go to:

www.worldview.org

It is the best time, you will every have!
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 5:15pm

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cantaclaro

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Here is a good article on the whole gay marriage thing...while I don't believe in all of it I do feel that it provides some good points on why homosexual marriage is wrong other than obvious religious beliefs.

http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=IF03H01&v=PRINT

As a man of faith I do have one thing to say. The proof of some super natural being can be proven by science, there is no doubt about that.

The 1st LAW of Thermodynamics is that matter cannot be created nor destroyed by ordinary means. In other words if you were to set a piece of paper on fire the molecules that make it up wouldn't vanish from the universe, they would simply turn into something else. I assume that most of you atheists believe in the big bang THEORY. This theory states that all of the matter in the universe started out as small as the period at the end of a sentence, but where did this matter come from? Matter cannot be created nor destroyed by ordinary means...It had to come from somewhere...If you answer this question then you will have solved the unsolvable.

Canta unsure
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 5:18pm

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Simon K Jones

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The 1st LAW of Thermodynamics is that matter cannot be created nor destroyed by ordinary means. In other words if you were to set a piece of paper on fire it the molecules that make it up wouldn't vanish from the universe, they would simply turn into something else. I assume that most of you atheists believe in the big bang THEORY. This theory states that all of the matter in the universe started out as small as the period at the end of a sentence, but where did this matter come from? Matter cannot be created nor destroyed by ordinary means...It had to come from somewhere...
Not really. That's just thinking in human terms. It's entirely possible that the matter has always been here, and will always be here, in a constant cycle of implosion and explosion. The infinite is something the human mind can't grasp, but it might be an explanation. There's no reason to think that the matter was ever not in existence.

Of course, bottom line is I don't know. What's this scientific proof of a supernatural being that you speak of?
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 5:26pm

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Sollthar

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I'm one of the Atheists who DOESN'T believe in the big bang theory, in case your interested. Cause it doesn't make more sense to me then "god created it all"...

But actually, god doesn't solve this problem:

If you say "god created the universe" you can always go one step backwards and ask the question, who created god then? The most common answers is "god has always been there" or "god created himself". While the second one is irrational nonsense, the first one is really interesting. If someone agrees that there obviously is something that could have existed forever, why can't this be the universe too?
If you say "god has always been there" and this makes sense to you, I could also say "well, the universe has always been there" wich wouldn't be a more pointless thing to say than the former.
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 5:45pm

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cantaclaro

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but the universe is nothing more than a bunch of atoms and molecules that do nothing but react with one another and create nothing new. I think God has always existed so it is far more plausible to think that he created the universe because he is all knowing all seeing and can do what he wants, that is what a God is. The universe is just a bunch of space crap floating around in nothingness. Who knows the entire "universe" might fit in a marble that aliens play with, based on atheist logic. One thing about science that pisses me off is the fact that people take THEORY for fact. The fact that somebody can take one step out side and think to themselves that evolution and coincidence created all of this just baffles my mind. While we are at it, I have never seen an atom...maybe they don't exist. /joke

Canta unsure
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 6:04pm

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Mellifluous

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Jeez, just my luck not to notice this until now...

I'm sort of an atheist, because of reasons similar to the views of Sollthar, Xcession etc.

Whilst I have an element of spirituality, this is based on a respect for the universe I live in rather than a love for a creator.

I don't believe in the Christian God because there are too many contradictions.

And if there was a God and a heaven I do not believe that God would be so petty as to bar entry to people who uphold the morals and way of life of a Christian but do not go to church or believe in him. For one, I believe that Christianity's conception of God is misjudged. God is too clear cut, too (can I say it?) well thought out.

We're supposed to have free will, and God is not supposed to intervene in our lives. But the Bible ittself says that he helped Islam conquer its enemies. Again, this seems petty, in breach of the free will we're supposed to have, and tell us that the Christian God is willing to intervene to help kill other people but not willing to help save people. Ok, there may be individuals who feel that they have in some way been helped by God, e.g. a relative being miraculously cured of cancer, but what about the Holocaust or 9/11?

The fact that Christianity speaks of historical events doesn't mean anything. History has been documented for over 5 thousand years, on papyrus, stone and paper. Why do people believe Christianity is infallible? The Bible texts were all written years after events occurred.

Personally, I believe in a Jesus of Nazareth, just not the way Christians represent him. Of course, it's difficult to know if he really did exist, but if he did I think that he was a man of principles and spoke for what he believed in. He wasn't killed because he was dying for our sins. His opinions were dangerous and diverged away from conventional Jewish doctrine, and also threatened the authority of the Romans. It appears to me that part of his message has been missed by Christianity. He seemed to me to be saying look within, and don't depend on external spiritual bodies so much. I'm not basing this entirely on "the kingdom of heaven is within" quote though I'll have you know.

Most importantly for me, I think no religion can offer the ultimate truth. Religions are of a time and a place, and many are not relevant anymore. They all have stories about gods interacting with their creation, and they all attempt to put these events into context by referring to actual events that happened. Christianity cannot claim it's unique in this sense.

For me, the basis of religions were attempts to make sense of the world and understand why we are here. No one likes to think we are alone.

I do think about it a lot and do wish that there was some answer. The earth is in a universe. No one knows the boundaries of this universe. If it has boundaries, what shape is it and what encloses it? If something encloses it what is the enclosing thing in? What was before the universe? Is our world the only world that has ever ever been, or are there other universes like ours, or have there been?

Ok, many questions. With a God, there are many questions too. What really drives him? He has a character, because he was pissed off with us because of the whole Garden of Eden episode. And what is is he? And what was before him? Christians say God has no beginning or end but sorry, that is unbelievable. Everything has an end and a beginning. It just doesn't make sense.

Last edited Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 6:12pm; edited 2 times in total.

Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 6:09pm

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Simon K Jones

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cantaclaro wrote:

but the universe is nothing more than a bunch of atoms and molecules that do nothing but react with one another and create nothing new. I think God has always existed so it is far more plausible to think that he created the universe because he is all knowing all seeing and can do what he wants, that is what a God is. The universe is just a bunch of space crap floating around in nothingness.
Hehe. You do realise that you are just a bunch of atoms and molecules doing nothing other than reacting with one another, yes? I'd say that humans are more than the sum of their individual parts, though. What's to say the same doesn't apply to the universe?

The universe seems pretty amazing to me. We are as much a part of it as the planets and the stars and the 'space crap'. There's no distinguishing between them really...we all come from the same source material. We are all 'star stuff', so to speak. Perhaps we are the universe made manifest, trying to work itself out. Who is to say that we are not just another small part of a greater whole?

Speculation and theory is all that it is, but it is fascinating nonetheless, and the possibilities astound me. But I make sure I separate what is known and what is possible.
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 6:19pm

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Mellifluous

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It is pretty amazing and I think mankind will find answers...far in the future when Star Trek is a reality razz

Another thing I forgot to mention, there's this girl at uni who I like & she likes me but she won't have a relationship because I am not a Christian. She's been trying to convert me by taking me to jazz concerts that, quite by coincidence, have Christian talks sandwiched in the interval, and Christian Union events, and asks me every so often if I believe in Christianity yet. It's hilarious but rather tragic...
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 6:23pm

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JohnCarter

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cantaclaro wrote:

One thing about science that pisses me off is the fact that people take THEORY for fact.
One thing that pisses me off about religion is the fact that people take THEOLOGY for fact.


A Theory is only a succession of hypothesis until it is proven. It is not a fact.

Because we can't yet explain something DOESN'T automatically preclude that something/somebody bigger/more powerful/wiser/all emcompassing/you name it did it. We just don't understand how it works yet.

Not knowing how it works doesn't mean it's supernatural or the work of (one or many) God(s) and it hardly constitutes a "proof" of any kind. Assuming this is much worse than accepting a theory as a fact in my humble opinion.
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 6:37pm

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Frozenpede

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science has not yet proved God exists, it has only proven that Creationism makes the most sense so far. However if you go outside of sicence there are a million other things that prove God exists. In Cameroon we have what are called JuJu's. These are humans who comunicate with the spirits and they really have powers to do some really freaky stuff. However when these JuJu's are confronted by a christian there powers are taken away or they feel amediantly threatened. I have seen spirits driven out of people and I have been attacked by demons at night. My friend has scars on his chest from a demon attack. How can you explain these things without the existence of a spirit world? I know that in America or Britain that it is hard for us to picture spirits as real because we dont have to worry about them here. In Cameroon however, calling up spirits is a daily occerence, they do it at funerals, births, wardances, weddings etc. and its all real!
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 6:39pm

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Sollthar

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I have seen spirits driven out of people and I have been attacked by demons at night. My friend has scars on his chest from a demon attack. How can you explain these things without the existence of a spirit world?
erm... go see a shrink? neutral
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 6:40pm

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Mellifluous

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Does a spirit world necessarily have to point to the existence of a God? It could just point to a different level of existence
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 6:43pm

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Sollthar

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Seriously though... What do you expect me to say?

What if I say, I know people in a village that have spoken to an alien that told them there is no god?

I can't say anything about those people you talk about. Only that I stroooongly doubt it.
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 6:50pm

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Mellifluous

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I would not believe it either but would say that people in this and different cultures are entitled to believe what they want just as much as we are. That type of thing, and voodooism etc is just another shape that religion has taken which further convinces me that religion is so relative that it can have meaning and fulfil a role but its truthfulness is put in doubt.
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 7:00pm

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Frozenpede

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I new when I wrote it that you wouldnt beleive me. However if you were to go there or Papua New Guinea or somewhere and try to spread the word, you would see just how real they are! these spirits mainly reak havac on the peoples who worship them. The reason that this points to God ist that, whenever there is a show down between a Christian calling up the powers of his God and a witchdoctor (JuJu) calling up his God, the Christian has always won.
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 7:04pm

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Sollthar

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The reason that this points to God ist that, whenever there is a show down between a Christian calling up the powers of his God and a witchdoctor (JuJu) calling up his God, the Christian has always won.
This is the point I abort this before I'll start insulting someone. Was interesting... I shall be looking forward to hell then. smile
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 7:10pm

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Mellifluous

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I've studied different cultures around the world including the Dani of Papua New Guinea, so know about different customs (not enough though).

I know that they believe strongly in the spirit world, no one disputes that, but whether it is true or not is another matter. Some people believe in God, others believe in spirits and the power that is given to certain people by the spirits. It's just another aspect of religion.

Personally, I don't see the point of a showdown between a Christian and a witchdoctor. Would God really participate in such a minor thing? Elaborate, please. I'm inclined to think the Christian just lit a lighter or something
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 7:15pm

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Joshua Davies

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I find it quite odd how people are so sure of their religion.

There have been countless generations of people who all believed in different gods and different ideas of creation and recreation. If you just look at the Egyptians and Greeks you can see beliefs that lasted much longer than the currents ones have that both have more than 1 god. Why are these must longer lasting beliefs less correct than ours?

The bible is just another stage in the evolution of humanity and therefore I can't understand how anyone can be utterly sure what they believe is utterly right and all these previous generations (who took religion a lot more seriously than we ever do) are utterly wrong. All religions seem to have a Jesus fugure or something similar - the teller direct from god or the gods who brings about a new revolution.

Religion has long been dead in europe, since kings and then the general public took the power back with elected governments. Previously the church was all powerful and all profitable. With the progress made in sciences and communication I can't see religion ever coming back in to power which probably means we are due another religious revolution. Jesus for the MTV generation - we simple need something we can see/touch/hear/experiment on these days.

What am I talking about? I think it all comes from studying art history and seeing how all documented western religions have been twisted over time. I'm not saying I'm right, but I don't understand being told I'm wrong by people who are religious just because it was all they were taught from birth. I wasn't taught this, I was left to work it out myself as were many people I know and all of them have yet to be convinced by any religion. hmm

I'll shut up now..
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 7:32pm

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JohnCarter

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God(s) and the demon(s) have a whole universe that spreads as far as the eye can see to play with...

Why would they only bother with us? For that matter, if they are so freakingly powerful, why do they just put scars on chest? Why not rip people apart and do all kinds of things that defy the rules of gravity or even entertainment?

Why do they always do this away from cameras that work, in remote areas where almost nobody lives? Why don't they put on a show for us mere mortals? Same for aliens too... Why do they probe rednecks in remote corners of the woods at night and what the hell same rednecks are doing in those remote woods in the first place?

Why would these seemingly infinitely powerful beings bother with us in the first place? What is so important inside our anal cavities and/or souls for spirits, ghouls, demons, gods and aliens to bother with in the first place?

And why the hell we have entire movie networks full of people dying in every which way - real footage I mean, as in those pseudo documentaries on FOX where they show you all kinds of sensational deaths- but NONE with aliens, spirits or demons? heck, why not a realtity show about exorcism? I'd buy that for a dollar!

You know why there isn't ANY documented proof of all this nonsense? It's because it doesn't EXIST! people have cameras from Antartica to the bottom of the sea and even in deep space, yet in all those years we haven't got ONE undeniably clean shot of anything weird that's aprt of our "folklore"...
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 7:35pm

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Frozenpede

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ok, one missionary in our organization is Joane Shetler, she was a missionary to a tribe in Papua New Guinea. There were two witchdoctors in this tribe who demanded that Joane leave. Somewhere along the line she challenged these witchdoctors to become Christians and they and they both said that if they did then they would be killed. Well one of the villagers "stepped" on a spirit child (in the Balangao village, they beleive that the spirit children live in the feilds and if you step on one you are killed) so this Balangao stepped on a spirit and the villagers were going to kill him. Of course, Joanne Shetler was not used to this custom and refused to allow it. They agreed to allow her to keep the Balangao boy, but he had to stay with her so that if the spirits got angry at them for not killing the boy, she would be the one cursed and not the rest of the tribe. The spirits attacked the boy and Joanne and tried to strangle them at night. The boy was convulsing and Joanne prayed and prayed until finally the attacked ended and the spirits left. The boy had scars on his knenk though.

This is easier for me to beleive because I have seen and heard many similiar stories. However I suggest that all of you (even if you already are a christian) read Joanne Shetlers book " and the word came with power"
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 7:43pm

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Frozenpede

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to answer Schwars question, the Christian faith is directly linked to Judaism which is older then the entire Arab race. In fact the beggining ot the Arab race is chronicled in the Bible starting from Ishmeal. All other religions from that time zone have crumbled but christianity has not. I may be wrong but I beleive that Abraham was from around 4000 bc. or maybe that was the flood. If it was the flood then Abraham would be around 3000 bc and that would make Judaism 5000 years old!
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 7:49pm

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JohnCarter

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The problem I have with that is exactly like the Bible. We have to take Joan (or you for that matter) ather words. No documentation, no photos (and even photos - it could be makeup).

Now Joan is a very devout Christian and we can maybe think that she REALLY wants to scare people into believing in the power of Christ and maybe (just maybe) she made all this up.

Or

it could also be that Joan is being manipulated by the evil spirit she believes is her God. He makes Joan believe she's has the ultimate truth and to reinforce her flimsy notions, he stages all this for her to sink even deeper in her intransigeant religion...

Or

Joan's God is really weak if it takes her a whole night of prayer to save a child. Why did her God allow an innocent child to be taken over by spirits he banned from Heaven in the first place if he' so strong? Why does Joan has to suffer all night repeated attacks from demons in order to perform what should be a no-brainer for any decent God or person - not allow this to happen in the first place. And as far as unleashing demons in the first place, did God really think there wouldn't be problems with a bunch of pissed off angels kicked out of Paradise? And how fair is it of him to leave to fend for ourselves against immortals with only prayers as weapons? And if he's so perfect, why did the demons revolt in the first place, huh? And if he's so powerful, why didn't he wipe them out in the first place? He doesn't lift a finger when we wipe millions in concentration camps! Wiping the demons would have saved us all the troubles in the first place... Piss poor management on his part...

Or

Joan overindulged some of those strange herbs they pass around the fireplace at night in the village...

Or...

The possibilities are endless and it boggles the mind that in the 21th Century people still tell tales like this...


Riddle me this: Christians says that demons are there to test our faith so that God knows who to save in the end, right? But they also say he knows everything, right? So why does he need a test in the first place?

And don't you think that this little contest between God and Satan for our very souls is a bit childish? Why are we asked to make mature decisions if the people that "ovesee" us act like petty children?

The whole concept of a benevolent god/evil spirits is shaky to begin with. It doesn't withstand any logic. That's why they invented faith... That way, no one asks questions. Believing is easier than questionning.

Last edited Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 8:01pm; edited 2 times in total.

Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 7:55pm

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Kid

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Also God is supposed to forgive everything so even if you don't believe in him or do wrong why would you be punished? All that is just a scam by the church and other religeous types to scare people into believing their religeon and giving them money.
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 7:59pm

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Frozenpede

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to answer JohnCarter: God is interested in us because he designed us in his image to be his companion. This is why man has a desire for companionship (his wife) because we are made in the likeness of God (not bodily but spiritually). We dont have footage of it for several reasons

1.) God wants you to seek Him first, to long for Him, He dosnt want to just come out and declare to the world "hey everyone! You now have no choice! Im here and Im gonna burn you in hell if you dont bow down right now!" He dosnt do that because that would just be a superficial relationship just like you wouldnt want your wife loving another man, even thoug you could force her to stay with you, it wouldnt be real or satisfying.

2.) There is some talk that spirits are real tangible beings. However mankind can only see a small percentage of the world as our eyes can only take in so much light. So many people beleive that demons would be just a couple levels up as far as sight goes. So a camera would be too weak to capture any footage. This is just one theory so Im not saying its fact, but it is a possibiliy.

3.) God controls demons (read Job) and if God dosnt want you to just know he exists then he can also keep demons from letting you know that they exists.

4.) the final reason is that neither realm (good or evil) would gain anything out of being seen by humans. If we could see supernaturals then the demons would lose immediatly because the knowledge that there is a God means that there is evil. God on the other hand, for reasons that I already mentioned, does not wish to be seen by mankind.
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 8:09pm

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Frozenpede

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to answer JohnCarter's second question:

Satan revolted because he wanted power (yes angels have greed). God cast them down to earth because he wanted to test mans loyalty to Him. Man succomed to the devil, bringing sin into the world and giving control of the world to Satan. God did not just snap his fingers and end it all because now, more then ever, it is the choice of each and every man to follow God. Its almost like sifter, satan seperates those loyal to God from those who would not be. We all have the same choice to make so only the person who made the choice can be held responsible for his choice its not your parents fault if you dont end up in heaven. That is what God wants, for each person to make his own decision.
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 8:17pm

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JohnCarter

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Frozenpede wrote:

1.) God wants you to seek Him first, to long for Him, He dosnt want to just come out and declare to the world "hey everyone! You now have no choice! Im here and Im gonna burn you in hell if you dont bow down right now!" He dosnt do that because that would just be a superficial relationship just like you wouldnt want your wife loving another man, even thoug you could force her to stay with you, it wouldnt be real or satisfying.
If God wanted to be seeked, why does he bother people who never asked anything in the first place (Moses, Joan of Arc, countless other poor souls). As for your analogy, it's like the man doesn't force her to stay with her (for the sake of the real) but he'll burn her alive the minute she steps foot back in the house... It satisfying only to the man but that seems like an instinct that belongs the the demons, no? If the relationship was so satisfying, why did she leave in the first place? And the man is stronger than the woman. Ain't fair to use his strength against her. Pretty shitty behavior if you ask me. He's just a scorned lover with an homicidal bent.

2.) There is some talk that spirits are real tangible beings. However mankind can only see a small percentage of the world as our eyes can only take in so much light. So many people beleive that demons would be just a couple levels up as far as sight goes. So a camera would be too weak to capture any footage. This is just one theory so Im not saying its fact, but it is a possibiliy.

we make cameras that can see in the whole range of wavelengths...

3.) God controls demons (read Job) and if God dosnt want you to just know he exists then he can also keep demons from letting you know that they exists.

I read Job. Basically, to prove Satan wrong, God allowed that Satan made the man as miserable as he could. Killed all his family, robbed him of his riches, etc. and left in him a pile of dung, covered in sores. When Job, wo was probably the first documented masochist, still didn't spit in the face of God despite everything, God gave him what he had ten times over. If that is not the sign of a seriously deranged egomaniac, I don't know what is. And it doesn't say much about Job: suddenly he had ten times more wives and babies - but he didn't even cry the ones that died. Didn't he love his previous wife and children? What kind of values are these? And here I thought we had to be monogamous?

4.) the final reason is that neither realm (good or evil) would gain anything out of being seen by humans. If we could see supernaturals then the demons would lose immediatly because the knowledge that there is a God means that there is evil. God on the other hand, for reasons that I already mentioned, does not wish to be seen by mankind.

If they don't gain anything by being seen by us, what do they gain by playing with us?

And the best argument against Creationism: in order for Adam and Eve to eventually populate Earth, Eve had to have sex with her sons Cain and Abel until they had daughters and the whole family would have to procreate through incest (which I thought was forbidden) and it would have lead to a frightening array of genetic defects, which means that we should all look like Elephant Man right now...
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 8:19pm

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JohnCarter

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Frozenpede wrote:

to answer JohnCarter's second question:

Satan revolted because he wanted power (yes angels have greed). God cast them down to earth because he wanted to test mans loyalty to Him. Man succomed to the devil, bringing sin into the world and giving control of the world to Satan. God did not just snap his fingers and end it all because now, more then ever, it is the choice of each and every man to follow God. Its almost like sifter, satan seperates those loyal to God from those who would not be. We all have the same choice to make so only the person who made the choice can be held responsible for his choice its not your parents fault if you dont end up in heaven. That is what God wants, for each person to make his own decision.
But God knows all, doesn't he? So he already knows which decision we are going to make! Isn't this a bit sadistic? To go through all this for something he already knows?

And why did God need to test us in the first place? He already knows what we are going to do!
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 8:24pm

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Frozenpede

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Job knew that God gives and he can take away. Its Gods creation and really its lucky for us that he even lets us breath his air.

God is a jealouse God it says so in Bible. Jealousy is only bad among humans because its Gods creation in the first place. God has every right to be jealous. Job new that he was to except Gods role in his life and that is what the book of Job is meant to show.
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 8:26pm

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Frozenpede

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For JohnCarters 3rd question: we couldnt have made the decisions we have if things didnt run the course they did. So its necesary.
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 8:30pm

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JohnCarter

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Frozenpede wrote:

For JohnCarters 3rd question: we couldnt have made the decisions we have if things didnt run the course they did. So its necesary.
So you accept this torture with a beatific smile just because God says it has to happen?

God can do whateve he wants but we can't? Re: Jealousy and such?

Sorry, but Hell seems like a better place any day! I'd rather die free than be under the control of a lunatic!

Your arguments will never convert anyone - it's scarier than anything else!

Basically, God created us and this entire universe so that he could make 99% of the creatures miserable until they decide wheter or not they'll kiss his holy buttocks?

Also, I'd like to know how did God manage to do worse on his second try at creating stuff: Didn't he make the Angels first and then us? Why did we get such a bum deal?
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 9:13pm

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Sollthar

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Didn't he make the Angels first and then us? Why did we get such a bum deal?
Probably they got too smart and said "god? You know what? Create something that is stupid it enough to play your game and even worship you for a kick in the ass. We're off..."




Darn, I wanted to keep quiet. crazy
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 9:15pm

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FroDittyBro

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Remarking to Skwars reply WAY up there. Hinduism is the oldest documented religion from the vedas and such. They have many gods but they are all like personalities of one god. Each branches out to a different personality EX. Shiva Linga is the sexual part of god. Also frozenpede, you do seem a little into it but in India there are Forest Wanderer peoples that can do some pretty scary things. They 'claim' they can do this stuff because they meditate all day trying to understand the universe and once they do this they somehow can stick there head underground for hours not breathing. They do have a name for the forest people ill keep in touch when i find out.
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 9:17pm

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Joshua Davies

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to answer Schwars question, the Christian faith is directly linked to Judaism which is older then the entire Arab race. In fact the beggining ot the Arab race is chronicled in the Bible starting from Ishmeal. All other religions from that time zone have crumbled but christianity has not. I may be wrong but I beleive that Abraham was from around 4000 bc. or maybe that was the flood. If it was the flood then Abraham would be around 3000 bc and that would make Judaism 5000 years old!
Most religions seem to stem hebraism but that doesn't mean they not been changed over time, distorted or rewritten - they all have, and some much more than others. With the introduction of logical government and law the church lost the power and money it used to have - I think its in need of another update but even if a prophet came forward who would believe in them these days?

Last edited Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 9:49pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 9:32pm

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Gibs

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JohnCarter wrote:

Lloyd66 wrote:

Scwar: You're right, if people want gay marriage, they're fine to it, but as a Christian and a moralist, I do, at the very least, wish that it wasn't allowed and that people wouldn't do it. I greatly dislike all types of sin, but I know that it's going to happen, so making a big ruckus is doing nothing good at all.
Lloyd, you have a very grounded and respectful approach to all this. I appreciate it. But I would like you to elaborate more on your reasons for being opposed to gay marriage. I am curious to see your point of view on this.

If God understands that we will mess up and is forgiving, why cannot he accept that gay people wants to get married? They are in the end only people, not demons!
The way I see it, God does accept gay marriage. It just breaks His heart because that was not the way he designed marriage. As for the reason I dislike it, the old phrase comes to mind. "Hate the sin, love the sinner." Because I try to follow what I think is right, it upsets me when others do wrong, and I personally can't just take a "who cares" stand on things.

JohnCarter wrote:

Sorry, but Hell seems like a better place any day! I'd rather die free than be under the control of a lunatic!
I certainly don't see religion as being controlled by a crazed lunatic. I certainly see the promise of eternal bliss in heaven a much greater prospect than burning forever in hell.

JohnCarter wrote:

Basically, God created us and this entire universe so that he could make 99% of the creatures miserable until they decide wheter or not they'll kiss his holy buttocks?

Also, I'd like to know how did God manage to do worse on his second try at creating stuff: Didn't he make the Angels first and then us? Why did we get such a bum deal?
I wouldn't call it such a bad deal to dedicate your life to the God who created you, but I guess if you don't believe in Him, it would be totally pointless. And I would rather be a human than an angel, because angels below humans in the whole scheme of things (they are servants to us), and they have no chance for forgiveness, either. If they mess up, they're done for.

JohnCarter wrote:

Riddle me this: Christians says that demons are there to test our faith so that God knows who to save in the end, right? But they also say he knows everything, right? So why does he need a test in the first place?
God did not put demons in place to test our faith. The original plan of His was for everyone to live in harmony on the earth, but that plan was messed up by Adam and Eve.

And to whoever said the thing about the priests who have sex with children but are still okay because they can be forgiven: Everyone can be forgiven, but they have to admit they've messed up. Now, if a priest who had done this was to recognize his evil ways and turn away from them, then it would be good. But I do not identify these types of people as true Christians, because while acknowledging God, they deny Him by ignoring Him in their life.

I think that no person is a true Christian unless they are different in the way they live their lives.
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 9:36pm

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Gibs

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schwar wrote:

Most religions are based on other religions or have elements that can be traced back, this doesn't stop bits being added and/or being distorted or totally rewritten.
You are right about this. That is why I get my beliefs from the Bible, and not just from what people tell me. Obviously I trust my youth minister, elders, etc., but I take what they say and I find proof of it in the Bible. Because the church, while in the spirit of God, it is maintained by humans, who obviously will screw up, but the Bible never changes.
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 9:39pm

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Pooky

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If the universe had been here forever, it would have to not be infinite. Why?

Each star emits light, this light travels at a certain speed (lightspeed), thus meaning it takes some considerable amount of time for far away star's light to get to us. Now if the universe was infinite, and it had always been there, then the light from the infinite stars would have had PLENTY of time to get to earth, thus, the night sky would be entirely white. But it isn't, it's black with a few specks of white. This means that either:

a) The universe has been there for a limited amount of time and is infinite

or

b) The universe has always been there but is limited.

If b) were to be true, is it really harder to think that there is a blob of matter in nothingness, than that there is a god?

Secondly, it is possible that Joan could have made up the story, yet it is not because she made it up that there is no such thing as spirits.

And thirdly, God is a forgiving god, yet there is a limit to forgiveness. You have denied him, spoken agaisnt him, and you expect him to say, "Oh, ok fine, I'll give you the ultimate gift of eternal life in Paradise even if you were warned about it dozens of times and denied it."? You KNOW that you may go to heaven of hell if god exists, yet you deny it. God has warned you, yet you do not do anything. That is the limit of forgiveness.
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 9:50pm

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Sollthar

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Just to give a bit physics lessons pooky:

Light is not an endless source. It decreases. Even if you had a room full of mirrors with a thin lightbeam, the room would never become entirely white.

So basically, this is nonsense your saying. wink
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 9:57pm

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Pooky

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Ah, you got me smile
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 10:00pm

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JohnCarter

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pooky wrote:

And thirdly, God is a forgiving god, yet there is a limit to forgiveness. You have denied him, spoken agaisnt him, and you expect him to say, "Oh, ok fine, I'll give you the ultimate gift of eternal life in Paradise even if you were warned about it dozens of times and denied it."? You KNOW that you may go to heaven of hell if god exists, yet you deny it. God has warned you, yet you do not do anything. That is the limit of forgiveness.
Pooky, no offense here but you need to brush up on your physics...
Edit: ooops! Sollthar got to you before me...

As for talking badly about God, the way he behaves in the Bible (at least in the Old Testament) is like a petulant child.

If he's upset because I say bad things, he has no business being in charge of anything because he's in serious need of getting a life. Why would there be a limit to forgiveness if God is infinite love? I forgave people for a lot worse than what God has issues with...

Read my posts about Joan: I am not denying spirits - I've included them in some explanations... What I am trying to say is that there is no REAL truth because we don't know anything about that or spirits for that matter. But one of my point is, when it comes to spirits and other such manifestations, the evidences are ALWAYS sketchy and dodgy. What are the odds of such a thing happening REPEATEDLY without no one ever managing to grab an evidence or have reliable witnesses?

And thirdly, If I told you that you'll burn and die if you badmouth me or don't believe me, well, you wouldn't take me seriously, would you? Then why do you beleive somebody you've never seen based on "witnesses" who died a couple of thousands years ago, the existence of which very little evidence exists. Why is Zeus a legend and not Jesus? Because the story of Jesus is easier (somewhat - at least he was human) to believe than Zeus...

You guys are putting faith in a guy who was followed by masses, mostly uneducated, in a period of severe distress. Things got distorted, embellished - It was a couple of thousand years ago. It's part legend, part facts. Hitler got millions of people to follow him too. Yet he was still only human. We all know the grim results. It's not that hard to blind nations... or get them to follow you blindly. Bush does it every day...

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Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 10:04pm

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Pooky

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If got gave you free will, shouldn't you be grateful instead of bashing him for NOT giving it to you?

Also, just a note to some people, not believing in anythign is the worst choice you can make because if, by some chance, one of the religions is true, you will be sure to get the bad destiny. At least choose the religion that seems the most believable.

So if it ends up that there is no god, then we don't lose anything.
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 10:06pm

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JohnCarter

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What free will do I have if the minute I do not blindly do what I'm told my ass is fried? You should really read orwell's 1984... That's the closest thing to a Bible-like society I've ever read...

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Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 10:07pm

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Pooky

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JohnCarter wrote:

What free will do I have if the minute I do not blindly do what I'm told my ass is fried?
Who ever said that?
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 10:09pm

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goober99

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I'm really kind of surprised at how many posts a Christian video generated. I've read posts about about everything from physics to gay marriages.

With this assortment of discussions already going on, I thought I might interject one thought.

Anonymous wrote:

Democray, the type practiced here in the U.S., and in most of Europe, is a messy thing.
The United States is not a Democracy, it is a Republic. When we pledge to the flag we pledge "and to the republic for which it stands."

You can read more about this and what our Founding Fathers thought at Wallbuilders
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 10:10pm

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JohnCarter

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pooky wrote:

JohnCarter wrote:

What free will do I have if the minute I do not blindly do what I'm told my ass is fried?
Who ever said that?
You, amongst others... I chose to believe nothing exists in the Heavens... According to you, that is passible by death (or bad destiny) or Hell for others...

And my understanding of Hell as it is represented most of the time, it's a place where I'd fry my ass...
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 10:13pm

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Pooky

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Exactly, and you have the right to. But God has warned you against it. I already say you don't have to run around praising the Lord yelling Alleluhia all day long.
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 10:16pm

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Sollthar

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Also, just a note to some people, not believing in anythign is the worst choice you can make
I agree. But don't make the mistake of thinking Atheists wouldn't believe in anything. I believe in a lot of things. But not in god... and not in heaven, or hell.
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 10:17pm

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Pooky

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Exactly, and you have the right to.
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 10:17pm

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JohnCarter

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HOW THE HELL DID GOD WARN ME?!?!?!?!

With a 2000 year old book?

There are other books, older than the Bible. Why not those? Why not Stephen King's? His are at least as thick!

I only see men telling me there is a God - usually to get money or to ensure their power over the credulous...

I've never heard or seen God... And throughout the whole history of the world, there isn't a single evidence he's ever acted upon anything or interacted with anybody... At least, no more or no less than Zeus did... or Horus, for that matter...

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Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 10:17pm

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MechaForce

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If I get sent to hell, I'll keep telling myself that God is Jewish, because then hell won't be for an eternity!

Sollthar: Another Physics Lesson

Light waves / particles can travel to infinity. Light can be slowed by particles in the air and just the fact that it's really hard to make a mirror with perfect 100% reflectivity.

And stop referring to the Bible for facts. It's a book of stories.
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 10:18pm

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Gibs

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JohnCarter wrote:

I forgave people for a lot worse than what God has issues with...
That's because your morals are a lot different than God's are. You probably don't get offended when someone uses God's name in vain, but He does, as it is showing disrespect and disregard to Him.

JohnCarter wrote:

And thirdly, If I told you that you'll burn and die if you badmouth me or don't believe me, well, you wouldn't take me seriously, would you? Then why do you beleive somebody you've never seen based on "witnesses" who died a couple of thousands years ago, the existence of which very little evidence exists.
You believe that the British killed many American Revolutionaries, even outside of battle, during the war for independance, right? Then you are basing your opinions from witnesses who died over 200 years ago. And I would call the gospels plenty of evidence. They were written by eyewitnesses.

JohnCarter wrote:

Hitler got millions of people to follow him too. Yet he was still only human. We all know the grim results. It's not that hard to blind nations... or get them to follow you blindly.
But Hitler has very few followers today, and most of them are what many consider crazed individuals. Many Christians, however, are regular people, just like everyone else, save that they believe Jesus died for them. And Jesus certainly didn't blind any nations. Not too long after he died, when the Roman emporer Nero came into power, Christians were burned for their beliefs. We have always been a "minority" of the world, so to speak.
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 10:18pm

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Pooky

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He warned you in the sence that you know about it, and you choose to say it is not true, and, for the third time, you have the right to, you have been warned, though not directly, and decide to not do anything, your choice.
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 10:20pm

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JohnCarter

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pooky wrote:

He warned you in the sence that you know about it, and you choose to say it is not true, and, for the third time, you have the right to, you have been warned, though not directly, and decide to not do anything, your choice.
Only from third parties...
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 10:23pm

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Pooky

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But you know!!
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 10:24pm

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Sollthar

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Light waves / particles can travel to infinity. Light can be slowed by particles in the air and just the fact that it's really hard to make a mirror with perfect 100% reflectivity
Only in a purely theoretical environment with no obstacles/particles that would be true.
So yourstatement is not false, but makes no sense in debate that is not about a theoretical environment. smile


I teach physics ya know. smile
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 10:25pm

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Joshua Davies

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but the Bible never changes
Lloyd66 - I think you missed my point. The bible is the very thing that has been played with, hence most religions can be traced back to the same origins but are all totally different now.

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Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 10:25pm

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Gibs

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JohnCarter wrote:

I only see men telling me there is a God - usually to get money or to ensure their power over the credulous...
If any person is trying to get you to be a Christian to get your money, they're not a Christian (or else they've made some serious mistakes). I hope you understand that TV Evangelists and the like are not really Christians, and I for one am certainly nothing like that.

And if God were to perform some miracle to let you know he existed, do you really think you would suddenly change your life?...That's why he doesn't (it's called faith.)
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 10:28pm

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Joshua Davies

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Heh. What about the Church demanding money from business's and banks for centuries?
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 10:28pm

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JohnCarter

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JohnCarter wrote:

I forgave people for a lot worse than what God has issues with...
lloyd wrote: That's because your morals are a lot different than God's are. You probably don't get offended when someone uses God's name in vain, but He does, as it is showing disrespect and disregard to Him.

I say: Why would God give himself privileges over me? I'm sorry but I have little respect for somebody who is supposedely in position of doing something about a situation yet doesn't move a finger, therefore allowing millions, heck, billions to suffer and die in atrocious and inhumane conditions... I'll never respect that. Ever. In that respect, if your God exists, he is the most inhumane, reprehensible creature ever conceived... What I'd call a monster... or a demon.

JohnCarter wrote:

And thirdly, If I told you that you'll burn and die if you badmouth me or don't believe me, well, you wouldn't take me seriously, would you? Then why do you beleive somebody you've never seen based on "witnesses" who died a couple of thousands years ago, the existence of which very little evidence exists.
Lloyd wrote: You believe that the British killed many American Revolutionaries, even outside of battle, during the war for independance, right? Then you are basing your opinions from witnesses who died over 200 years ago. And I would call the gospels plenty of evidence. They were written by eyewitnesses.

Stuff that happened 200 years ago is easier to verify than 2000 years. I believe you are a sensible enough fellow to admit that.

JohnCarter wrote:

Hitler got millions of people to follow him too. Yet he was still only human. We all know the grim results. It's not that hard to blind nations... or get them to follow you blindly.
Lloyd wrote: But Hitler has very few followers today, and most of them are what many consider crazed individuals. Many Christians, however, are regular people, just like everyone else, save that they believe Jesus died for them. And Jesus certainly didn't blind any nations. Not too long after he died, when the Roman emporer Nero came into power, Christians were burned for their beliefs. We have always been a "minority" of the world, so to speak.

Jesus was charismatic enough to scare the Jewish and Roman leaders who feared an uprisal... At the time, Palestine and what we now know as Israel was a nation. I am not saying that Jesus "discourse" was bad. I am merley trying to point out that he was a charismatic person at a time of little education and that people got "carried' away in their retelling of what happened...

If Hilter had won the war, he'd be perceived as a God today by some people...

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Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 10:31pm

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Gibs

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Schwar: I understand perfectly what you are saying (I think!) The Bible can be interpereted in many different ways to one crafty enough, but I do not believe that the Bible, the way it was originally written, has been modified at all except in the possible minor error of the translation from Hebrew.

Mecha: If the Bible is a bunch of stories, then I assume that's what your history book is as well. Just because a book is really old does not mean that it is any less accurate than when it was first written. Actually, since most of the books are primary documents, they should be almost 100% accurate.
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 10:35pm

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Sollthar

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Actually, since most of the books are primary documents, they should be almost 100% accurate.
heh, the bible has - before it was written down - benn told mouth by mouth. You can bet it's not even 50% accurate.
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 10:39pm

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JohnCarter

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Lloyd66 wrote:

Schwar: I understand perfectly what you are saying (I think!) The Bible can be interpereted in many different ways to one crafty enough, but I do not believe that the Bible, the way it was originally written, has been modified at all except in the possible minor error of the translation from Hebrew.

Mecha: If the Bible is a bunch of stories, then I assume that's what your history book is as well. Just because a book is really old does not mean that it is any less accurate than when it was first written. Actually, since most of the books are primary documents, they should be almost 100% accurate.
WHERE is the original Bible? I haven't even seen a picture of it. The Bible was translated by monks and suchin the Middle Ages. It was interpreted and modified and such. There many versions/interpretations of the Bible today. And parts of it are cryptic at best. Ever read Apocalypse? If it wasn't in the Bible, it'd be called delirium.

And it's not because somebody writes a book that he's necessarily telling the truth!
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 10:40pm

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Gibs

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Boy, this all gets really backed up with all this posting!

Schwar: That's something the church shouldn't do. Period.

JohnCarter: God allows death to happen, because it's a part of life. He did not have a hand in creating the sin, however, and if Adam and Eve hadn't screwn up, then none of that wouldn't happen. Although I certainly don't enjoy death any more than you do.

Yes, you are right, history from 200 years ago is easier to verify than 2000 years. But there are commonly accepted facts from more than 2000 years ago, such as Greek and Roman emporers and the different things they did.

If Hitler had won the war, he'd be perceived as a god by some, but by physical standards, Jesus did not win. He died at the hands of his enemies. But then again, by spiritual standards, he did win (because he was raised from the dead), and that is why he is "The Son of God" to Christians.
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 10:42pm

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Joshua Davies

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You believe that the British killed many American Revolutionaries, even outside of battle, during the war for independance, right? Then you are basing your opinions from witnesses who died over 200 years ago. And I would call the gospels plenty of evidence. They were written by eyewitnesses.
Eyewitnesses? People seeking fame? Propaganda? People report amazing things every day - its called the weekly world news...

People used to believe amazing things, with science and communication we have moved on quite a bit. Still there are people that can convince you of many amazing things today like astrologists. We have come to learn that you can generally read what you want in to most astrological predictions, not unlike the Bible.

It also seems odd that you use Hitler as an example as he certainly believed in God. He was raised as a Catholic, went to a Catholic school and much of his philosophy came right out of the bible, more specifically, from the Christian Social movement.

Also using the Greek and Roman empires as an example isn't a good idea as we have first hand evidence in the form of monuments/statues/writing for all of these - again proving they were full of contradications as well.

There is no original of the current bible as its been messed about with so much we can't say what is what anymore, appart from checking against older religions to see whats the same and how much is changed or been added.

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Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 10:43pm

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Gibs

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Rating: -1

JohnCarter: Yes, the whole Bible could be a scam, but would anybody really bother to try to make a fake book with the amount of detail and historical accuracy that the Bible has? I highly doubt it.
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 10:44pm

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Gibs

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Hitler believed in God, but he certainly didn't live his life for Him.
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 10:45pm

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FroDittyBro

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The United States is not a Democracy, it is a Republic. When we pledge to the flag we pledge "and to the republic for which it stands."
I am not totally sure if that is true

a republic is a party a democracy however lets the people of the nation decide what happens

But since there are to many things to decide on so we have a government to help us out and we instead elect senators to decide on issues.

Thus making us part Socialist but mostly capatalist meaning that we give some power to the government but most of it goes to the people.

There is no totally capatalist or totally communist government because they both have there drawbacks
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 10:45pm

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JohnCarter

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Lloyd66 wrote:

JohnCarter: Yes, the whole Bible could be a scam, but would anybody really bother to try to make a fake book with the amount of detail and historical accuracy that the Bible has? I highly doubt it.
I am not saying it's a fake book. Look at Homer's Illiad. For a long time, we thought it was a legend. Then we found Troy. Exactly where Homer said it was... Ooops!

Does that mean Achilles and Helen and Paris and such really existed? Was Achilles really invulnerable except through this heel? Is Helen truly the daughter of Zeus? Was there really a wooden horse the size of a small city?

See my point?
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 10:54pm

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Gibs

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Yes, I do see your point, and it is valid. However, the Illiad was written as fantasy (at least I assume so, I don't really know much about it though). Whereas the Bible was written as non-fictional history.
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 10:58pm

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Gibs

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FroDittyBro: The fact that we elect congressmen makes us a Democratic-Republic, not Socialist. Our economic system is 100% capitalist (you can't really have a mix between the two). Capitalism is not a form of government, and I'm pretty sure that Communist countries have a 100% Communist government. I could be wrong, though.
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 11:00pm

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Joshua Davies

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If there is one thing that annoys me it is people telling me I'm wrong not being religious, and that they feel the need to show me the error of my ways. Just to flip this on its head I do get the feeling that the none religious people here (like me) are now doing the same to those people who are religious - I can't say I like that either and I'm sorry for my part. Trying to disprove things you believe in is not something you should have to put up with on the cinema section of FXhome unless its about your bad film making style.

If you have a belief which you feel is valid then I don't want to think that what I've been saying is against that cause I'm not. I would like to understand it more, but I think at this stage in my life I'm still at the point where I think there might be something out there but don't totally believe any religion I've come in to close contact with. I could easily be wrong because I know virtually nothing of the world and the universe (and beyond).

This all started with the question of gay marrige which isn't a topic for the cinema section of this web site or for FXhome in general really. There are many places it can be discussed, and if anyone would like to post a few links to other communities where they are discussing this then feel free.

No matter what religion we adhere to we are all friends here I hope.

Last edited Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 11:02pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 11:01pm

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FroDittyBro

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Its impossible to have a pure capatalist environment because people get sneaky behind our backs. (Like companies dumping crap into our waters) Which is why the people cannot run the society. We have a government to put limits on us.

This is how it goes and where we are.

Communits-----------------Socialist------------|--Capatalist
- ----------------------------------------------- U.S --------------


darnit my chart got screwed up

im not the best at grammar so i prolly made my entire idea of what i was going to say up above totally wrong.

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Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 11:01pm

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JohnCarter

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Lloyd66 wrote:

Yes, I do see your point, and it is valid. However, the Illiad was written as fantasy (at least I assume so, I don't really know much about it though). Whereas the Bible was written as non-fictional history.
Who says it's non-fictional? There is a lot of elements in the Bible that would be called "fiction" in ANY other setting...
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 11:04pm

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Gibs

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Well put, Schwar. I'm trying not to force my beliefs on others, besides that is not how I am supposed to act according to my beliefs. It's great that you are remaining open to other beliefs, that's a good thing for anyone.

While I may not agree with the majority of the people here on these issues, they have nothing to do with filmmaking and will not get in the way of this at all. By the way, did you get my PM, schwar?
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 11:06pm

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Joshua Davies

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I wasn't aiming the pushing thing at anyone here really, more the guys that come up to you on the street or on the bus - grrr smile

I'll check my messages now Lloyd66
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 11:08pm

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The bible also isn't fact. Its not a set of rules or history of things that happened. Its a bunch of fables to teach us things mixed with different peoples accounts of history mixed with analogies. Some people seem to take it all literally when it obviously isn't supposed to be and even those who know it really well are confused because we don't know which bits fall under which categories anymore.
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 11:09pm

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JohnCarter

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Schwar, I think the discussion is civil and I can't talk for others, but I try to understand why people believe these things so strongly because I cannot figure it out for msyelf. I offer arguments and either they counter it or not.

I do respect people beliefs but I am trying to understand why some people cannot see the blatant incoherence in some belief system or their own. As I said earlier, I don't think ANYBODY has all the answers. Saying there is a God is in the end as preposterous as saying that there is none since nobody REALLY, TRULY knows. You may know in your heart, as some will claim, but the truth is there is no evidence of anything when it comes to that.

I like to speak my mind and I cherish this liberty as my right. Therefore I respect other people's abilitiy to do the same.

That being said, it's true that we have derailed this thread... And I apologize for my part to the filmmaker.
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 11:11pm

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Joshua Davies

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Hey John, wasn't getting at anyone as an individual smile (l'm putting my foot in it already it would seem). Was more the feeling of "prove this" and "believe this" that means we are getting further and further from being a cinema/fx post.

As everyone in CSB has little experience with religion I don't feel happy moderating something within this context and fear upsetting someone when I don't mean to. Hence lets leave the "believe in the bible" talk for now guys, if anyone wants to post links to a forum where this talk will be better served then go ahead...

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Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 11:14pm

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FroDittyBro

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that was fun reading all these posts lol and putting my bad 2 cents in oh well.
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 11:17pm

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sidewinder

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There's too much ignorance here to contend with. If I felt like grinding my forehead on a brick wall when reading these posts, I can't wait to see what idiocy is spewed when The Passion is released.

Damn, I'm gonna take another hiatus.

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Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 11:29pm

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ssj john

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who caressssssssss
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 11:32pm

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I agree that this shouldn't be taken any further but it is good to explore other people's points of view. As long as it doesn't get offensive & people are not getting upset...


My final remarks - really, what is the point of being Christian/religious? The whole debate seems to centre on having a blissful afterlife or a hell-fired one.

I always feel people focus too much on that whole debate, rather than whether it improves your & other people's quality of life...eg providing moral standards, which I feel is more important.

If the only reason why I should be a Christian is to prevent myself from burning in hell, & all I need to do to prevent that is step into a church every so often, then for me that devalues the whole of human life.

I feel rather outraged for apparently having to give in to some kind of blackmail, to pay for a supposed sin committed thousands of years ago. Why should every person be tarnished with the same brush? Shouldn't people only have to pay if they do bad things, rather than because they see no evidence for the existence of a divine being?

If my whole life is building up to a blissful death (if I accept Christianity) then what is the point of living?

I emphasise my ukltimate view: religion is relative, changing over time & space (it's different around the world & has taken different forms throughout history, eg paganism). It has been developed by societies over thousands of years, to give life meaning & understanding, & the ancient texts (eg Bible, Koran, Talmud etc) reflect this. The ancient texts are of their time & should not be used today. In essence? Religion is manufactured by humankind.

I know that religions aren't intrinsically (in themself) bad but religion has been manipulated so many times to promote oppression that it seems to have done more harm than good sometimes - eg Spanish Inquisition, Crusades, the Middle East conflicts, the Holocaust, the hatred in Ireland between Protestants & Catholics, etc etc.

Sorry if I offend anyone in this, please tell me why calmly rather than getting heated smile
Posted: Wed, 18th Feb 2004, 11:58pm

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Gibs

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Mellifluous: You worded your post well, and I do not feel offended at all. However, I feel it is my duty, in a way, to clarify a few things you may be understanding wrong.

I think we have sort of overshot the fact that religion is good because of higher moral standards. But then again, you don't have to be a Christian to be a good person.

The way to get to heaven is not to visit church every so often. I hope I didn't ever give you this impression, because it is incorrect. If this was the case, religion would be pointless. But Christianity is a way of life. To be a true Christian, I believe that you must dedicate your life to God, in your actions and thoughts every day.

The point of living (at least, the way I see it as a Christian) is to serve others. But also to enjoy the good things life has to offer, such as filmmaking and this website!

Many people have done bad things in the name of God, but people who claim to fight for Him are not following His teachings, and are innaccurately representing Him and other Christians.

Again, I'm not trying to force my beliefs on you, I just hope to clear some things up that I see as misconceptions about religion. Hope this post has been of some use to you!
Posted: Thu, 19th Feb 2004, 1:58am

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Frozenpede

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JohnCarter wrote:

Frozenpede wrote:

For JohnCarters 3rd question: we couldnt have made the decisions we have if things didnt run the course they did. So its necesary.
So you accept this torture with a beatific smile just because God says it has to happen?

God can do whateve he wants but we can't? Re: Jealousy and such?

Sorry, but Hell seems like a better place any day! I'd rather die free than be under the control of a lunatic!

Your arguments will never convert anyone - it's scarier than anything else!

Basically, God created us and this entire universe so that he could make 99% of the creatures miserable until they decide wheter or not they'll kiss his holy buttocks?

Also, I'd like to know how did God manage to do worse on his second try at creating stuff: Didn't he make the Angels first and then us? Why did we get such a bum deal?
Ok heres the deal.
Im not trying to convert you, only God can do that, Im just giving you the facts as that is all I can do. I, like you, did not just wake up one morning and decide "hey, I wish there was a god, Ill make one up and convince everyone else of him" my religion is not a gene that makes me different like a race. A year ago I denounced God and the entire religion for the exact reasons that you have mentioned. In fact all of those questions you just asked are the exact same questions I asked last year. However it wasnt science, history, or even psychology that convinced me of God. It was the undeniability of the spirit realm. I lived in Cameroon where only two things can protect you from demonic spirits
1.) your on their side
2.) God protects you

After about two weeks of demons attacking me in my bed, invading my dreams and basically just plain haunting (plus hearing repeated simular stories to make sure it wasnt some kind of mind trick like a weird withdrawl) I realised that you cant deny God, he exists and you either side with Him or against Him, their is no inbetween.

Now a lot of you dont live in places where you can relate to this so I guess science, history and psychology will have to do it. So I sugest a couple of books

1.) "Evidence that Demands a Verdict"- Josh McDowell (he is an atheist that set out to prove Christianity wrong, and this is the collection of his research)

2.) "Peircing the Darkness"- Frank Peretti (this is a fictional novel that desplays the spirit realm rather acuratly)

3.) "And the Word Came With Power"-Joanne Shetler (this is her book on her life as a missionary to the Balongao people in Papua New Guinea, it will give you a better idea of what I just described if you cant live it for yourself)
Posted: Thu, 19th Feb 2004, 2:07am

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Frozenpede

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JohnCarter asked where is the origional Bible: The Bible is the collection of religious scrolls which we DO have. The origianal Bible is of no concern to us as the origianal contents are still available. Although Im sure that the origianal Bible is out there somewhere in a Catholic monestary somewhere.
Posted: Thu, 19th Feb 2004, 2:33am

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Gibs

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Okay, I don't really understand that about demons attacking you in your bed, but if it helped you get to know God, it can't have been a bad thing! smile
Posted: Thu, 19th Feb 2004, 2:42am

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Frozenpede

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sorry, Ill describe a little more. In Cameroon they have deathcry's which is when someone dies they call up the spirits. This is when demons run rampant and even take on almost physical forms. One of my friends was grabbed by the chest in bed and shaken up and down and her chest was constricted so she couldnt yell. Her mom heard some banging and what not and went to see what it was and the demon left. Another friend was takled and has scars to prove it. Both of my parents had their lungs constricted (almost like a giant weight upon your chest). I kept on seeing images and hearing voices ( I know sounds psycho but Im no the only one) and it only stopped when I asked God for protection

To understand what I mean better read "Peircing the Darkness", its almost exact as far as how this all works. biggrin
Posted: Thu, 19th Feb 2004, 2:46am

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Pooky

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That is creepy.
Posted: Thu, 19th Feb 2004, 2:49am

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FroDittyBro

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sounds like a scene taken out of A nightmare on elm street ya know

if your telling the truth then im stayin away from cameroon
Posted: Thu, 19th Feb 2004, 2:56am

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Frozenpede

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haha, its true, but its only when there are spiritual customs taking place. This is one of the main problems facing missionaries (read the books I suggested) we are constantly battling with spirits. That stuff is long gone in Europe and America (for the most part) so people no longer feel the nead for Gods protection, but in other countries (Papua New Guineas, Phillipines, Cameroon, Kenya etc.) it is all too real
Posted: Thu, 19th Feb 2004, 2:56am

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Mellifluous

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lol
Posted: Thu, 19th Feb 2004, 2:59am

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Frozenpede

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lol Mellifious, I just read your sig. funny stuff!
Posted: Thu, 19th Feb 2004, 3:14am

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MechaForce

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I'm a Demon spirit and I'm going to eat you when you're sleeping.
Posted: Thu, 19th Feb 2004, 3:19am

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Frozenpede

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so your from MN? my parents are from there biggrin

Like I said though, you havnt been in a situation where this could happen.
Posted: Thu, 19th Feb 2004, 3:33am

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Gibs

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I still don't really understand, but I'll take your word for it. I think I will check out that book, though.
Posted: Thu, 19th Feb 2004, 3:34am

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Kid

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And you don't think the reason that these 'demons' occur in these far out places is simply because your immune system hasn't built up a defense to local illnesses yet?
Posted: Thu, 19th Feb 2004, 3:42am

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Gibs

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Ya know, that could be the reason. Hey Frozen, you didn't drink the water, did you? smile
Posted: Thu, 19th Feb 2004, 5:10am

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Hybrid-Halo

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Sorry, let me re-iterate.

God wants you ALL to buy a copy of AlamDV and Chromanator.

End of story.
Posted: Thu, 19th Feb 2004, 9:35am

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Sollthar

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Demons... neutral

You guys should get another hobby then making or watching films.. It doesn't do you any good... seriously... confused
Posted: Thu, 19th Feb 2004, 10:56am

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Joshua Davies

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Ok guys, lets get back to film now, I have been posted by people that find this discussion quite offensive. The only post I'll allow on the subject is one which points to another forum better equiped for religious discussions.

Thanks guys.
Posted: Thu, 19th Feb 2004, 12:12pm

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Pooky

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Well I found the acting kind of plain with not much emotion and the keying on the mirror wasn't that great. Apart from that it's not bad.
Posted: Thu, 19th Feb 2004, 1:26pm

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Xcession

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How can you find this discussion offensive? I can only imagine that its the devoutly religious that could take true "offense" at the suggestions in this forum.
But if you're so vague in your beliefs that a bunch of charlatans such as myself are able to get to you just by spouting nonscense; you probably ought to be taking note and seriously re-evaluating your life!
Posted: Thu, 19th Feb 2004, 3:08pm

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Mellifluous

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Frozenpede wrote:

lol Mellifious, I just read your sig. funny stuff!
Isn't it just?

I am not a member but check out these...rofl

http://internettrash.com/users/sprkythdvl/gnome.htm
http://www.cnn.com/2000/STYLE/arts/04/12/france.gnomes.reut/
http://www.gnome007.fsnet.co.uk/glfmem.html
http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_369034.html

This may be seen as diverting from this topic but I am capitalising on a chance to make it light-hearted once again. Roll on with your minuses!
Posted: Thu, 19th Feb 2004, 6:20pm

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Frozenpede

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Rating: +1

Frozenpede wrote:

to answer JohnCarter: God is interested in us because he designed us in his image to be his companion. This is why man has a desire for companionship (his wife) because we are made in the likeness of God (not bodily but spiritually). We dont have footage of it for several reasons

1.) God wants you to seek Him first, to long for Him, He dosnt want to just come out and declare to the world "hey everyone! You now have no choice! Im here and Im gonna burn you in hell if you dont bow down right now!" He dosnt do that because that would just be a superficial relationship just like you wouldnt want your wife loving another man, even thoug you could force her to stay with you, it wouldnt be real or satisfying.

2.) There is some talk that spirits are real tangible beings. However mankind can only see a small percentage of the world as our eyes can only take in so much light. So many people beleive that demons would be just a couple levels up as far as sight goes. So a camera would be too weak to capture any footage. This is just one theory so Im not saying its fact, but it is a possibiliy.

3.) God controls demons (read Job) and if God dosnt want you to just know he exists then he can also keep demons from letting you know that they exists.

4.) the final reason is that neither realm (good or evil) would gain anything out of being seen by humans. If we could see supernaturals then the demons would lose immediatly because the knowledge that there is a God means that there is evil. God on the other hand, for reasons that I already mentioned, does not wish to be seen by mankind.
Kid said:Also God is supposed to forgive everything so even if you don't believe in him or do wrong why would you be punished? All that is just a scam by the church and other religeous types to scare people into believing their religeon and giving them money.

why did both of these get negatives? (they are right nest to each other and neither are offensive) Is someone just randomly giving negatives? This is just an Educational debate for both sides, I dont see why either side would get offended.
Posted: Thu, 19th Feb 2004, 6:46pm

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Joshua Davies

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Heh, lets not start a debate in to what offended what type of person. Still no links to a forum that would serve this discussion better?
Posted: Thu, 19th Feb 2004, 9:22pm

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Gibs

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I just did a quick search on Google that brought up some sites:

http://www.beliefnet.com/boards/boards_main.AllCategories.asp?Category=129

http://www.otweb.com/forum/index.php

http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/79107 (seem to be mainly Christian)

http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/dvera/CoEvan/forumsDebate.html (links to other forums, seems to be run by non-Christians)

EDIT: Some of the links in the above angelfire site could be a bit perverse.
Posted: Thu, 19th Feb 2004, 10:17pm

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Frozenpede

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What happened to that site goober99 was making (The Harvest Project)?
Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2004, 12:59am

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Volcomcs07

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talk about boring, that jesus stuff is like so fake
Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2004, 1:45am

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AndrewtheActorMan

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I personnaly thought the FILM was creative, the mirror was not the best FX wise duh to the slight fringe on it, but it was a very clever idea i must say. I knew something was going on with it and it made me watch it. Heh, a 3.

Andrew biggrin
Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2004, 2:13am

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anonymous

someone who's been a little hypocritical wrote:

The forums are feeling a little stale lately. A lot of people feel the urge to tell one another that they need to tone down their comments when there's the slightest aggressiveness or blunt honesty in them. It's kind of starting to wipe the spirit out of any debate.

Go ahead and disagree, and feel free to say why.
but not when they come to disagree with you?
Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2004, 5:31am

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Frozenpede

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AndrewtheActorMan wrote:

I personnaly thought the FILM was creative, the mirror was not the best FX wise duh to the slight fringe on it, but it was a very clever idea i must say. I knew something was going on with it and it made me watch it. Heh, a 3.

Andrew biggrin
I agree almost entirly although I would add that it seamed like there was no thought behind any of the lines (like the character was just rambling of some ingrained message in the back of his head)