You are viewing an archive of the old fxhome.com forums. The community has since moved to hitfilm.com.

The Passion of Christ

Page 1 of 2: 1, 2 | Next

Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2004, 4:16pm

Post 1 of 327

FiveIronFrenzy

Force: 464 | Joined: 25th Dec 2003 | Posts: 438

Windows User

Gold Member

I thought I would post this, because everyone was using the Reflections movie forum to post things about the Passion. So post em' here.

I myself do not want to see the movie, but my parents are making me. Should be a very gory film...R for violence. I don't do well with the torture type of violence, but the action violence I love!

Thanks
Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2004, 4:40pm

Post 2 of 327

Frozenpede

Force: 630 | Joined: 28th Jan 2004 | Posts: 1113

EffectsLab Lite User Windows User

Gold Member

well the movie is about the end of Christ's life which means no miracles or anything but one heck of a long crucifiction!
during the movie they strapped a board on the actors back and wipped the board, twice though they hit him and he said that it was so painfull that he couldnt breath. Now imagine 30 of em! with shreds of glass and mettle beads intwined in the wip! oh he was also struck by lightning during the surmon on the mount scene. Rough!
Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2004, 4:43pm

Post 3 of 327

Aculag

Force: 8365 | Joined: 21st Jun 2002 | Posts: 8581

EffectsLab Lite User VideoWrap User FXhome Movie Maker MacOS User

Gold Member

Rating: +2

Ok, why don't you want to see it?

I don't get the whole controversy thing. People are way too afraid to offend anyone or be offended these days. I've been hearing stuff like "Could this ruin Mel Gibson's career?" ANYTHING can ruin someone's career. Look at Ben Affleck. All he had to do was date the wrong (right?) person, and I'd say his career is pretty much down the drain because of it. Not to mention he's in bad movies. But Mel Gibson's movies I always tend to like. A lot. He's a guy who knows what he's doing, and if making a realistic portrayal of one of the (if not THE) most influential events in all of human history is going to ruin his career, people need to take their heads out of their asses and stop being so damn touchy about everything.

Personally, I can't wait to see it, and I wish they hadn't put in subtitles, but whatever. And I for one don't care about the violence. If there wasn't any graphic depictions of any violent events at all in it, I'd still want to see it badly.
Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2004, 5:10pm

Post 4 of 327

Frozenpede

Force: 630 | Joined: 28th Jan 2004 | Posts: 1113

EffectsLab Lite User Windows User

Gold Member

I agree with Aculag, how come we cant say Im white and your black, instead we have to say "Im COCASIAN and he's AFRICAN AMERICAN" all it does is waste breath! and in the future it will probably be bad to say cocasian because "slander" I dont see how it changes anything, call me what you will and Im still me! my skin dosnt mutate and brain dosnt shrink everytime someone points out the obvious and calls me white and Ive never seen anyone else do it either.
Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2004, 5:43pm

Post 5 of 327

FiveIronFrenzy

Force: 464 | Joined: 25th Dec 2003 | Posts: 438

Windows User

Gold Member

I believe that the movie will be a great ministry. I have seen a trailer for it, it looks very well done. The floggers reminded me of orks, just but the way there faces reacted. Instantly, Diane Sawyer asked: "Are you anti-Semetic?" She is retarded. Just because he made a movie about Jesus, and the ones who killed him were Jews, she gets all wiggy.

The truth is, everyone who has sinned (thats is everyone) killed Christ. But, It happens that the Jews were the ones, that ruled that section of the nation.
Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2004, 5:45pm

Post 6 of 327

Aculag

Force: 8365 | Joined: 21st Jun 2002 | Posts: 8581

EffectsLab Lite User VideoWrap User FXhome Movie Maker MacOS User

Gold Member

Wait... So do you or do you not want to see it?
Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2004, 6:03pm

Post 7 of 327

FiveIronFrenzy

Force: 464 | Joined: 25th Dec 2003 | Posts: 438

Windows User

Gold Member

Son, it's a love/hate situation.
Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2004, 8:00pm

Post 8 of 327

BackOfTheHearse

Force: 2660 | Joined: 17th Nov 2001 | Posts: 1099

EffectsLab Pro User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User

Gold Member

I'll probably end up seeing it when it's on video/DVD, but I won't go to the theatre for it. I'd only end up seeing it for its artistic/filmmaking value. I have no particular interest in the subject matter of the film.
Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2004, 8:10pm

Post 9 of 327

cantaclaro

Force: 2036 | Joined: 24th Oct 2001 | Posts: 875

EffectsLab Lite User Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

It wasn't the Jews that killed Christ it was the Romans. Some Jews were involved in the process but they didn't beat him to a bloody pulp and make him carry his own cross up a big mountain while being ridiculed, spat on, and whipped some more...A Jew didn't smash spikes through his hands and feet. It is like any other race...there were some bad Jews just like there were some bad Romans, Arabs and on and on. Michael Savage wrote an excellent article on this movie that basically dispels any of the PC crap that the liberal media is spewing.

http://www.homestead.com/prosites-prs/savagepassion.html

By the way I'm an "African American" but prefer to be called black. Because I have never been to Africa...I don't want to go to Africa, I don't have any family that has ever been to Africa and I doubt that even if given the chance...to go they wouldn't want to. Please folks this is an appeal to the libs out there...stop with the Politically Correct bull it only spreads more hate. I'm black, you are white blah blah blah. End of story.

Canta unsure
Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2004, 8:54pm

Post 10 of 327

Gibs

Force: 1663 | Joined: 21st May 2002 | Posts: 1611

CompositeLab Pro User FXhome Movie Maker FXpreset Maker MacOS User

Gold Member

I am glad that the film will be graphic, because if it was a watered down version of the events that took place, it would inaccurately display what happened when Jesus died.

canta: You're right that the Roman soldiers did do a majority of the beating of Jesus, but it was, in essence, the Jews that killed Him. Pilate, the governor of Judea, commented how he saw no reason for Jesus to be killed, but the Jews were so angry with Him that they convinced Pilate to let them kill Him. And I'm taking this from how it was written in the Bible.

Of course, this doesn't mean that I hate Jews or anything, I'm glad that Jesus did die for me. Any group of people would want to kill a person like Jesus if it was under circumstances that the Jews were in.
Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2004, 9:14pm

Post 11 of 327

stqagehanduk

Force: 460 | Joined: 3rd Jun 2002 | Posts: 438

Gold Member

If in fact they (or the Romans) actually did.

It all depends on whether or not you really believe in the bible as historically accurate, doesn't it? I don't, so he might as well come back with superpowers, beat the crap out of the Roman occupation and then ride off into the sunset (or France) with the tart with the heart of gold for all it matters to me.

There's a good movie in there somewhere, actually ...
Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2004, 9:39pm

Post 12 of 327

owen rixon

Force: 1155 | Joined: 30th Jun 2002 | Posts: 499

EffectsLab Lite User Windows User FXhome Movie Maker

Gold Member

I dont think that it should be used as a story really. I mean, its so famous that to be a great film, it would just be repeating the story in the bible. anythin else, and it will be poor.
Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2004, 10:03pm

Post 13 of 327

Aculag

Force: 8365 | Joined: 21st Jun 2002 | Posts: 8581

EffectsLab Lite User VideoWrap User FXhome Movie Maker MacOS User

Gold Member

The difference between reading the story from the bible and the film is that you're closer to witnessing the events, rather than reading it and imagining it.
Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2004, 10:05pm

Post 14 of 327

Frozenpede

Force: 630 | Joined: 28th Jan 2004 | Posts: 1113

EffectsLab Lite User Windows User

Gold Member

the thing with the crucifiction is that reading it dosnt do it justice, the emotion that a video can spark up in a person is what will really pull this movie through, for Christians it will be a time of self-questioning and awe for what their God did for them. For none Christian it will probably do a large number of things (disgust, move, who knows) but never uderestimate the value of the crucifiction on film, with the right techniques, music, lines, and so forth it can be pretty moving or emotional.

PS: I heard that Jesus will be wearing 5 hours worth of makeup to make him look really messed up.
Posted: Sat, 21st Feb 2004, 2:03am

Post 15 of 327

JohnCarter

Force: 3295 | Joined: 11th Mar 2003 | Posts: 1078

VisionLab User Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

Lloyd66 wrote:

canta: You're right that the Roman soldiers did do a majority of the beating of Jesus, but it was, in essence, the Jews that killed Him. Pilate, the governor of Judea, commented how he saw no reason for Jesus to be killed, but the Jews were so angry with Him that they convinced Pilate to let them kill Him. And I'm taking this from how it was written in the Bible.
Erm... Your statement is quite inaccurate Lloyd. SOME Jews were responsible for the killing of Jesus (as well as Romans) and from my understanding, it was a political decision on the part of the Jewish elite because the people (Palestinians AND Jews) were following Jesus and the Elite didn't believe he was the Son of God, but him claiming it and exciting the masses threw a wrench in their political plans because they were losing their grip on the populace, so they conspired to have him killed with the people in power, which happened to be the Romans... You cannot blame ALL the Jews for this.

As for the crucifixion, well, Jesus wasn't alone to be crucified... And it was common practice. There is much worse ways to die. It was nothing particularly special. And it's certainly not the first time an innocent is killed by other fellow humans... So what's the big deal?
Posted: Sat, 21st Feb 2004, 2:09am

Post 16 of 327

Gibs

Force: 1663 | Joined: 21st May 2002 | Posts: 1611

CompositeLab Pro User FXhome Movie Maker FXpreset Maker MacOS User

Gold Member

Actually, you're right about this. There were some Jews that mocked Him as He was dying, but a majority of them were following Him. The Romans, however, didn't really like Him because many of the early Christians talked about Jesus coming to overthrow the Romans (which He never intended to do). Thank you for correcting me.
Posted: Sat, 21st Feb 2004, 4:53am

Post 17 of 327

Mr_E_Man

Force: 730 | Joined: 15th Apr 2003 | Posts: 166

EffectsLab Lite User MacOS User FXhome Movie Maker

Gold Member

Hey everyone, let's leave the "who killed Jesus?" crap off the thread please? This is exactly what people were worried about because it brings people to question religion, and that can seemingly start mild but run really deep and have really hurtful implications to some people. I don't mean to sound like the diciplinary father here, but let's just stop this now just in case someone gets too emotional (and I know it's quite possible, being a Christian and understanding how deep these things can run). Romans, Jews, it's all taken out of context. When you watch this movie please keep it in a proper time reference. Take time to understand that yes, the Romans were in charge of the government, and the Jews were influencing the government through religion. Don't blame it on the Romans or the Jews, just understand that it was an event that had to be played out for the sake of mankind, and that it was made so through the individual people in that specific area in that certain time.
Posted: Sat, 21st Feb 2004, 10:06am

Post 18 of 327

stqagehanduk

Force: 460 | Joined: 3rd Jun 2002 | Posts: 438

Gold Member

How about a time-travelling adolf Hitler? That it'd put it up there with the Tim Burton Planet of the APes.
Posted: Wed, 25th Feb 2004, 7:06pm

Post 19 of 327

Frozenpede

Force: 630 | Joined: 28th Jan 2004 | Posts: 1113

EffectsLab Lite User Windows User

Gold Member

today is the opening day, is anyone going to watch it today?
Posted: Wed, 25th Feb 2004, 10:33pm

Post 20 of 327

Brettsta

Force: 3385 | Joined: 15th Nov 2003 | Posts: 2114

VisionLab User FXpreset Maker MacOS User

Gold Member

I have a mall near me that has a food court and movie theatre. I went to where the theater was and looked to see if there were any movies. There was a sign that said:

The Movie

The Passion of the Christ

Has violent and very gory scenes. Some people may be offended by this movie.
Posted: Wed, 25th Feb 2004, 10:50pm

Post 21 of 327

Waser

Force: 4731 | Joined: 7th Sep 2003 | Posts: 3111

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 2 Pro User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User

SuperUser

im probably going to see it later
Posted: Wed, 25th Feb 2004, 10:51pm

Post 22 of 327

Aculag

Force: 8365 | Joined: 21st Jun 2002 | Posts: 8581

EffectsLab Lite User VideoWrap User FXhome Movie Maker MacOS User

Gold Member

What helpful information. I'm so glad that happened to you, brettsta.
Posted: Wed, 25th Feb 2004, 10:53pm

Post 23 of 327

Brettsta

Force: 3385 | Joined: 15th Nov 2003 | Posts: 2114

VisionLab User FXpreset Maker MacOS User

Gold Member

Aculag wrote:

What helpful information. I'm so glad that happened to you, brettsta.
haha. On the other hand, im not planning on seeing the movie. Its not because its bloody or controversial or anything, but because it just doesnt interst me.
Posted: Thu, 26th Feb 2004, 1:29am

Post 24 of 327

Frozenpede

Force: 630 | Joined: 28th Jan 2004 | Posts: 1113

EffectsLab Lite User Windows User

Gold Member

my church has rented out a theater room for it for the 7th.

Man Mel Gibson is one of the luckiest filmakers alive right now! He's got a story that is suppose to tap right into your emotional vein, its something he actually wanted to make, its controversial so a lot of people want to see it just out of curiousity. How many people get an opportunity like that!? Really how many of you were deeply moved by Spider-man? or thought that Pirates of the Carribean was incredibaly controversal? this is a once in a life time opportunity! biggrin
Posted: Thu, 26th Feb 2004, 1:59am

Post 25 of 327

Brettsta

Force: 3385 | Joined: 15th Nov 2003 | Posts: 2114

VisionLab User FXpreset Maker MacOS User

Gold Member

Not once in a lifetime...
Posted: Thu, 26th Feb 2004, 2:49am

Post 26 of 327

Gibs

Force: 1663 | Joined: 21st May 2002 | Posts: 1611

CompositeLab Pro User FXhome Movie Maker FXpreset Maker MacOS User

Gold Member

For Mel Gibson it was.
Posted: Thu, 26th Feb 2004, 2:56am

Post 27 of 327

Brettsta

Force: 3385 | Joined: 15th Nov 2003 | Posts: 2114

VisionLab User FXpreset Maker MacOS User

Gold Member

Lloyd66 wrote:

For Mel Gibson it was.
Oh read it wrong.. I didnt comprehend he was talking all about him. I just reread it and, yes, it is a once in the lifetime opportunity.
Posted: Thu, 26th Feb 2004, 3:14am

Post 28 of 327

JohnCarter

Force: 3295 | Joined: 11th Mar 2003 | Posts: 1078

VisionLab User Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

Come on guys... We get one of those Religion based controversy in films about once ever 8 years...

lat time it was Kevin Smith's Dogma (only God know why I'm sure!) and before him it was Scorcese...

There was a Spanish director and even a Canadian one (Jesus Christ Vampire Hunter)...

Mix sensitive subject matter with any group of people with narrow views and you get that...

Love Gibson as a director... Good for him if he makes money - maybe he'll make more - but I sure hope he gets back to the Braveheart type of entertainment and that he is not pulling a Cameron...
Posted: Thu, 26th Feb 2004, 5:50am

Post 29 of 327

elementcinema

Force: 436 | Joined: 17th Dec 2003 | Posts: 814

Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

I just finished watching the movie..i quite liked it. i hear that alot of people dont tho..but i guess it all depends on what religion you follow because i do see some differences in some bibles ragarding the same story.

One thing i didnt like abuot the movie is how practically the whole thing was a montage..not alot of dialogue at all (not that im complaining considering it was in aeramiac (i have no idea how to spell it)). also when the temple is destroyed the effects are very cheesy.

There is ALOT of blood in it too. i think it was very exagerrated with the whole gore concept.

I know there is alot of controversy and all but really what harm is it really going to do to people eh? if it offends you in anyway then its your fault for seeing it. Mel Gibson has the right to write about whatever he wants and make it into a movie..its our choice to see it or not. but a thing that boggles my mind is that so many people dont like the idea of this movie but soo many people are going to see it. it opened today and it was sold out ever showtime.
Posted: Thu, 26th Feb 2004, 9:59am

Post 30 of 327

Joshua Davies

Force: 25400 | Joined: 21st Mar 2001 | Posts: 3029

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 5 Pro User MuzzlePlug User PowerPlug User PhotoKey 3 Plug-in User FXpreset Maker Windows User MacOS User

FXhome Team Member

I'm interested to see how it does in the rest of the world. I can't see it being huge here like it is in the US because we do not seem to be as religious.

But the hype from the states probably means it will get quite a few people. Not sure if I'll see it or not.
Posted: Thu, 26th Feb 2004, 11:56am

Post 31 of 327

Sollthar

Force: 13360 | Joined: 30th Oct 2001 | Posts: 6094

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 2 Pro User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User MacOS User

SuperUser

Yeah, as far as I know onl a couple of small cinemas will show the film here.
Swiss aren't religious, so probably not many people even have an interest for Jesus... I sure don't. Mabe I watch it on DVD sometimes, but I wouldn't go see it in cinema anyways.
Posted: Thu, 26th Feb 2004, 11:59am

Post 32 of 327

Simon K Jones

Force: 27955 | Joined: 1st Jan 2002 | Posts: 11683

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 5 Pro User MuzzlePlug User PowerPlug User PhotoKey 3 Plug-in User FXhome Movie Maker FXpreset Maker Windows User

FXhome Team Member

elementcinema wrote:

I know there is alot of controversy and all but really what harm is it really going to do to people eh?
A woman died in a screening.
Posted: Thu, 26th Feb 2004, 12:06pm

Post 33 of 327

Pooky

Force: 4834 | Joined: 8th Jul 2003 | Posts: 5913

EffectsLab Lite User Windows User MacOS User FXhome Movie Maker

Gold Member

Heh
Posted: Thu, 26th Feb 2004, 12:31pm

Post 34 of 327

Sollthar

Force: 13360 | Joined: 30th Oct 2001 | Posts: 6094

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 2 Pro User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User MacOS User

SuperUser

Maybe she'll resurrect again later and will be the new messenger, who knows? neutral
Posted: Thu, 26th Feb 2004, 12:38pm

Post 35 of 327

Pooky

Force: 4834 | Joined: 8th Jul 2003 | Posts: 5913

EffectsLab Lite User Windows User MacOS User FXhome Movie Maker

Gold Member

Don't turn this into another religious debate.
Posted: Thu, 26th Feb 2004, 12:42pm

Post 36 of 327

Sollthar

Force: 13360 | Joined: 30th Oct 2001 | Posts: 6094

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 2 Pro User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User MacOS User

SuperUser

Heh, don't worry.

But you never know... wink
Posted: Thu, 26th Feb 2004, 1:19pm

Post 37 of 327

Frozenpede

Force: 630 | Joined: 28th Jan 2004 | Posts: 1113

EffectsLab Lite User Windows User

Gold Member

So far all of the reports Ive seen from FXhomers have said that they liked it, any contradiction?
Posted: Thu, 26th Feb 2004, 1:30pm

Post 38 of 327

anonymous

a woman died??? how?
Posted: Thu, 26th Feb 2004, 1:31pm

Post 39 of 327

elementcinema

Force: 436 | Joined: 17th Dec 2003 | Posts: 814

Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

that was me..
Posted: Thu, 26th Feb 2004, 3:01pm

Post 40 of 327

wpl

Force: 1782 | Joined: 17th Jul 2002 | Posts: 1389

Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

I'm just going to copy/paste what I put in my other thread. didn't know about this one redface

I just back from seeing this movie today and I must say it was a VERY good movie regardless if you are believe in God or not. There has been alot of controversy over this film, so I had to see it.

I would recommend this film to anyone. It was the only movie I have ever been to that almost made me cry. After it was over the audiance just sat in thier seats like . The cleaning crew had to kick the people out.
Posted: Thu, 26th Feb 2004, 9:48pm

Post 41 of 327

starX

Force: 662 | Joined: 3rd Mar 2002 | Posts: 145

EffectsLab Lite User Windows User

Gold Member

Here's the story on the woman's death.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,112560,00.html
Posted: Thu, 26th Feb 2004, 10:56pm

Post 42 of 327

BackOfTheHearse

Force: 2660 | Joined: 17th Nov 2001 | Posts: 1099

EffectsLab Pro User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User

Gold Member

Gah~~ FOXNews.... Gah...

FOX News is like the antithesis of The Daily Show in terms of left wing/right wing media....

However, Fox News takes itself seriously.

One last time..


Gah razz
Posted: Thu, 26th Feb 2004, 11:25pm

Post 43 of 327

wpl

Force: 1782 | Joined: 17th Jul 2002 | Posts: 1389

Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

what's the daily show?
Posted: Fri, 27th Feb 2004, 3:58am

Post 44 of 327

FiveIronFrenzy

Force: 464 | Joined: 25th Dec 2003 | Posts: 438

Windows User

Gold Member

I'm going to be sick when i see it...I'll just go 2 sleep. IF I CAN!!!!

MY mom would kill me! She would make me see it again!

Well w/e it will be good NE WAYZ....so peace out. hmmm..

unsure Nathan
Posted: Fri, 27th Feb 2004, 4:02am

Post 45 of 327

OneDanShow

Force: 260 | Joined: 16th Dec 2002 | Posts: 84

Windows User

Gold Member

The Daily Show comes on Comedy Central. It's a fake news program in that they report the news humerously.

As for my view on the film, I saw it on Tuesday night with church groups from all around the town. I really liked it and I agree with the Pope in that "It is as it was", though I'm not Catholic. I believe religious faith is based mainly on the unseen, but this film serves as a reenforcement for believers and a ministry to the rest.

-Daniel
Posted: Fri, 27th Feb 2004, 4:04am

Post 46 of 327

cantaclaro

Force: 2036 | Joined: 24th Oct 2001 | Posts: 875

EffectsLab Lite User Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

"It is as it was" that is such a Matrix like answer...Oh that Pope and his glittering generalities.

Canta unsure
Posted: Fri, 27th Feb 2004, 9:31am

Post 47 of 327

Simon K Jones

Force: 27955 | Joined: 1st Jan 2002 | Posts: 11683

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 5 Pro User MuzzlePlug User PowerPlug User PhotoKey 3 Plug-in User FXhome Movie Maker FXpreset Maker Windows User

FXhome Team Member

The Pope didn't say that. The Vatican got very annoyed when reports started saying that he'd endorsed the film.
Posted: Fri, 27th Feb 2004, 10:42am

Post 48 of 327

stqagehanduk

Force: 460 | Joined: 3rd Jun 2002 | Posts: 438

Gold Member

It occurs to me that there wa another film made with the intention of inspiring faith and that movie was ... the Excorcist! Tadaaaa! I wonder what the Pope made of that?

Is it me or is making a mov Gove in a dead language (as I understand it is) just a bit pretentious? Give me Life of Brian anyday.
Posted: Fri, 27th Feb 2004, 3:05pm

Post 49 of 327

OneDanShow

Force: 260 | Joined: 16th Dec 2002 | Posts: 84

Windows User

Gold Member

The Matrix, that is such a Jesus story movie.

smile

Tarn, do you have a news report that has the Vatican's real response because I'd like to read it? I just got that quote from a few articles that I'd read online.
Posted: Fri, 27th Feb 2004, 3:33pm

Post 50 of 327

Simon K Jones

Force: 27955 | Joined: 1st Jan 2002 | Posts: 11683

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 5 Pro User MuzzlePlug User PowerPlug User PhotoKey 3 Plug-in User FXhome Movie Maker FXpreset Maker Windows User

FXhome Team Member

Here's some info on the whole affair:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/film/3413073.stm
Posted: Sat, 28th Feb 2004, 7:47pm

Post 51 of 327

starX

Force: 662 | Joined: 3rd Mar 2002 | Posts: 145

EffectsLab Lite User Windows User

Gold Member

I just got back from watching the movie, and I must say it is quite excelent. Using the aramaic dialogue really enhanced the authenticity that Mel Gibson was going for, and I didn't mind it one bit. I would strongly recommend this movie. If the theme of the movie doesn't interest you, then go see it for the excelent camera work and acting.

-Brian
Posted: Sat, 28th Feb 2004, 8:00pm

Post 52 of 327

Waser

Force: 4731 | Joined: 7th Sep 2003 | Posts: 3111

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 2 Pro User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User

SuperUser

i'm going to go see it, though i really wish they hadn't cast white actors for some of the parts (like jesus), that is if they were going for real authenticity
Posted: Sat, 28th Feb 2004, 8:43pm

Post 53 of 327

jaycoolyea

Force: 703 | Joined: 2nd Dec 2003 | Posts: 138

EffectsLab Lite User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

it was great cinematography, but some elements of the film were just plain distracting, and took away from the film. one example of this was the random flashbacks. some were good, but others just did not fit.

as previously said, the acting is excellent, and very worthy of the $6 (at my theater) to see it.

i have a thread on my website about this topic, it could use some intelligent comments.

http://jaycoolyea.proboards27.com/index.cgi?board=movies&action=display&num=1077942957
Posted: Sat, 28th Feb 2004, 9:14pm

Post 54 of 327

Frozenpede

Force: 630 | Joined: 28th Jan 2004 | Posts: 1113

EffectsLab Lite User Windows User

Gold Member

Waser wrote:

i'm going to go see it, though i really wish they hadn't cast white actors for some of the parts (like jesus), that is if they were going for real authenticity
The guy looks Jewish to me.
Posted: Sat, 28th Feb 2004, 10:19pm

Post 55 of 327

Waser

Force: 4731 | Joined: 7th Sep 2003 | Posts: 3111

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 2 Pro User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User

SuperUser

i imagined him looking more middle eastern. in the bible it says that his skin was like bronze
Posted: Sat, 28th Feb 2004, 11:27pm

Post 56 of 327

FroDittyBro

Force: 400 | Joined: 28th May 2003 | Posts: 61

EffectsLab Lite User Windows User

Gold Member

exactly unlike popular belief everyone in that time was not white but since they were in the middle east they were not black kind of in the middle. So jesus was not white he was middle eastern looking. And the matrix seems more to me like a Hindu Philosophy film. If you study that religion it is very similar to the philosophy of the matrix. (This world isnt real kind of thing) dont be stupid and say "oh yah, it definatley connects with robots ruling the world".
Posted: Sun, 29th Feb 2004, 12:19am

Post 57 of 327

4036Douglas

Force: 920 | Joined: 8th Jun 2003 | Posts: 893

EffectsLab Lite User Windows User

Gold Member

Well, I'm going to see it tomorrow! My mom pre-ordered tickets for it!
Posted: Sun, 29th Feb 2004, 5:42am

Post 58 of 327

jaycoolyea

Force: 703 | Joined: 2nd Dec 2003 | Posts: 138

EffectsLab Lite User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

bring some kleenex, most women cry during this movie.
Posted: Sun, 29th Feb 2004, 11:11pm

Post 59 of 327

4036Douglas

Force: 920 | Joined: 8th Jun 2003 | Posts: 893

EffectsLab Lite User Windows User

Gold Member

No, my mom ended up not crying much... Of course, some of that must be beacuse she closed her eyes in some of the violent scenes.
Posted: Mon, 1st Mar 2004, 1:43am

Post 60 of 327

Brettsta

Force: 3385 | Joined: 15th Nov 2003 | Posts: 2114

VisionLab User FXpreset Maker MacOS User

Gold Member

I decided I will pass on this movie because i dont want to support anti-semitists. Gibsons dad doesnt even believe the holocaust happened :&rt;
Posted: Mon, 1st Mar 2004, 1:45am

Post 61 of 327

Pooky

Force: 4834 | Joined: 8th Jul 2003 | Posts: 5913

EffectsLab Lite User Windows User MacOS User FXhome Movie Maker

Gold Member

It being anti-semitist is only a matter of opinion.
Posted: Mon, 1st Mar 2004, 1:46am

Post 62 of 327

Brettsta

Force: 3385 | Joined: 15th Nov 2003 | Posts: 2114

VisionLab User FXpreset Maker MacOS User

Gold Member

My opinion along with everyone I know who saw its opinion. Not to mention the papers...
Posted: Mon, 1st Mar 2004, 1:46am

Post 63 of 327

Pooky

Force: 4834 | Joined: 8th Jul 2003 | Posts: 5913

EffectsLab Lite User Windows User MacOS User FXhome Movie Maker

Gold Member

Papers... meh biggrin
Posted: Mon, 1st Mar 2004, 3:00am

Post 64 of 327

Frozenpede

Force: 630 | Joined: 28th Jan 2004 | Posts: 1113

EffectsLab Lite User Windows User

Gold Member

Brettsta wrote:

My opinion along with everyone I know who saw its opinion. Not to mention the papers...
The media hates independent films, and most people say that this movie is hard to understand if your not a Christian. As far as Anti-semitism goes, Christians have long been the greatest ally of the Jews, in fact most feel a certain bond to the people of Israel. It is historic fact (both recorded in the Bible and out of the Bible) that a mass of people called for the execution of Jesus and even chose to free Barabus (a murderer) when given a choice (again this is recorded outside the Bible as well) and what other race is going to make up the majority of a crowd in Judea other then Jews? Pilate was a politician and it was in his best interest to do as the people want (if trouble stirred up between the Jews and the Romans, Rome would make HIS head role). So yes, the Jews (Gods chosen people) called for the death of the son of God, and that death was brought at the hands of the current government (the Romans). Its not a matter of racism because anyone would have done. It just had to be the Jews because they were Gods chosen race and you can even see God preparing for that day throughout the Jewish history. Its a matter of fact, not hate. As far as Gibson's dad, I dont see how his veiw of the holocaust relates at all to the death of Jesus.
Posted: Mon, 1st Mar 2004, 2:02pm

Post 65 of 327

elementcinema

Force: 436 | Joined: 17th Dec 2003 | Posts: 814

Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

I think its quite simple hilarious that gibsons dad believes that the holocaust never happend. lol..

i was wacthing Ebert and Roeper lastnight after the oscars and they were discussing "The Passion". They said that (and i agree on) that this movie has brought alot of inteligent conversations to the table with alot of people not making a big fuss either. People do need to discuss their religions with others who do not have the same beliefs because it then gives (hopefully) an open mind, more ideas from others stick with you if it makes more sense than your opinion/belief. I know i love a good religious discussion here and there but not too much where it becomes preaching and ive heard people say that this is a way for Mel to preach about his beliefs. I dont think thats correct at all. I think Mels idea of a good Religious movie to get people back into things was perfect, especially chosen at the perfect time of all our lives.
dont you agree?
Posted: Tue, 2nd Mar 2004, 4:50am

Post 66 of 327

jaycoolyea

Force: 703 | Joined: 2nd Dec 2003 | Posts: 138

EffectsLab Lite User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

i dont really see how people see this as antisemitism. it's just history. plain and simple. Jesus was persecuted by the Jews, and crucified by the Romans. it's in the history books. i dont see why there are sparks flying over this subject.

its christianity, not antisemitism people, get it right.

also, Jesus, all of his disciples, his family and his friends were all Jewish. Only the top Jewish leaders severely persecuted Jesus, the others just followed along. this is like saying everyone in america supports the war in iraq. nnot everyone in a group agrees with everything the group leaders support. for gibson to hate Jews, that would mean he hated Jesus and his disciples. think about it.
Posted: Tue, 2nd Mar 2004, 4:59am

Post 67 of 327

Brettsta

Force: 3385 | Joined: 15th Nov 2003 | Posts: 2114

VisionLab User FXpreset Maker MacOS User

Gold Member

Gibsons father is 100 percent antisemetic though. Not thinking the holocaust happened. Idiot. Thats why millions of jews were killed and scapegoated and sent to ghettos in Germany and Poland. Thats terrible to me. He doesnt believe it???!!?!? Its offensive, disrespectful, and anti semetic. sad
Posted: Tue, 2nd Mar 2004, 5:13am

Post 68 of 327

jaycoolyea

Force: 703 | Joined: 2nd Dec 2003 | Posts: 138

EffectsLab Lite User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

last time i checked, mel gibson is his own person, he is not his father.

i was under the impression that mel directed it, not his dad. what if your dad commited murder? should they give you the death penalty because of your father's crime. no.

people trying to judge mel gibson's movies based on his father's reputation make me angry. :&rt;
Posted: Tue, 2nd Mar 2004, 5:22am

Post 69 of 327

averagejoe

Force: 3592 | Joined: 31st Mar 2001 | Posts: 710

VisionLab User PhotoKey 2 Pro User FXpreset Maker Windows User

SuperUser

Rating: +1

You are still taking Mel's dads opinioins out of context. Just because his Dad appears to lean toward Anti-Semetic views does not mean that Mel leans that way too.

Sheesh, my Grand Mother (bless her heart) is conviced the universe is off balance because we left stuff on the moon. My Dad nor I believe as she does.

People, can beleive really crazy weird crap. But that is the beauty of this life. We can choose to be stupid, narrow-minded, and even weird.

The part that makes me most angry about Mel's Dad is that the reporter knew he was a bit off. That is why they interviewed him. He could have dementia. His father is old and vulnarable. That is the only reason the press went after him. They needed dirt, and didn't care how they came about it.

I plan on seeing this movie, once the dust settles and cinemas are less full.

Lastly, chill out people. It is still just a movie. An interpetation. It may be closer than earlier attempts. It is most likely not exactly as it was. However it is as close as I/we will get to being there when it happened.

Until time traveling Hitler brings back a handy cam of the whole affair.

Last edited Tue, 2nd Mar 2004, 5:27am; edited 2 times in total.

Posted: Tue, 2nd Mar 2004, 5:25am

Post 70 of 327

Aculag

Force: 8365 | Joined: 21st Jun 2002 | Posts: 8581

EffectsLab Lite User VideoWrap User FXhome Movie Maker MacOS User

Gold Member

"...and what my father did, well it don't mean sh*t. I'm not him."

That about sums it up.
Posted: Tue, 2nd Mar 2004, 2:16pm

Post 71 of 327

elementcinema

Force: 436 | Joined: 17th Dec 2003 | Posts: 814

Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

jaycoolyea wrote:

i dont really see how people see this as antisemitism. it's just HISTORY. plain and simple. Jesus was persecuted by the Jews, and crucified by the Romans. it's in the history books. i dont see why there are sparks flying over this subject.
history? its not quite history to everyone. plain and simple. Jesus (if he ever existed) couldve been persecuted by the jews, and crucified by the romans. and what history books? the bible? pfft.

there are sparks flying around over this subject because people come about and start preaching about what they believe because a) either mel gibsons view of it all is wrong or B) they figure that since mel made a movie about his beliefs, why not preach mine in a different way?.

no offence to anyone here at all, this is just what i think and i dont want to start a ruckuss. I have my beliefs ofcourse as everyone else in this world. but can all of you honestly believe that the stories in the bible really happened? sure they have found archeological findings and what not but they still arent sure. but listen to this: if i write a book about myself that is completely false and just a bunch of lies and someone were to find it in thousands or years from now they will believe it. why not right? Or if someone were to find a beat up copy of a tom clancy book (sum or all fears for example), will they believe that a nuclear bomb really went off? i dunno, this may sound a little drastic but its what i think..
Posted: Tue, 2nd Mar 2004, 2:37pm

Post 72 of 327

Pooky

Force: 4834 | Joined: 8th Jul 2003 | Posts: 5913

EffectsLab Lite User Windows User MacOS User FXhome Movie Maker

Gold Member

Well first of all the Bible was written by a lot of people, yet all their stories match. Considering they are from different times and different families, do you really think someone would get this idea to get lots of people to write a story that is historically accurate? That would mean, he starts off with genesis, then gets a follower, he writes the next book, and so on for thousands of years, and everyone would have to make it historically accurate, if only one person made a mistake, everything falls apart. And that's just the old testament.

The new testament, Jesus arrives and 12 disciples follow him. They each say the same thing, except some describe it a bit differently, or add more detail, some don't say something but 2 do. Hard to plan.

Now what I'm trying to say is that what the New Testaments say happened really happened. HOWEVER, the people writing it might have misinterpreted it. So Jesus existed, yet he may not have been the son of God. That is where personal opinion comes in.

The Old Testament, I believe, are simply stories that are meant to teach a lesson of some kind, like The Turtle and the Hare, there was never a hare and a rabbit that raced, it's only supposed to teach something.

Anyway, let's not turn this into another Religious debate.
Posted: Tue, 2nd Mar 2004, 2:43pm

Post 73 of 327

elementcinema

Force: 436 | Joined: 17th Dec 2003 | Posts: 814

Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

pooky wrote:

I believe they didn't, and that the stories are just meant to teach a lesson of some kind, like The Turtle and the Hare, there was never a hare and a rabbit that raced, it's only supposed to teach something.
okay, the hare never existed, it was just to teach a lesson, but then how can you belive that jesus existed and it wasnt just a lesson for people. for example we have the laws. laws are made to keep us from doing bad things. back then the bible could have been their laws just put into story telling form so people could understand better. another thing is heaven and hell (this is what i believe). heaven and hell were created to keep people civilized long back when there was no law enforcement. so when someone decided to do something bad they would be sent to hell, and with someone thinking they will go to hell for something they have done they will maybe reconsider doing it at all. just a thought..
Posted: Tue, 2nd Mar 2004, 2:44pm

Post 74 of 327

Pooky

Force: 4834 | Joined: 8th Jul 2003 | Posts: 5913

EffectsLab Lite User Windows User MacOS User FXhome Movie Maker

Gold Member

Reread my post, I edited it.

And you don't get sent to hell for doing something bad, that's catholic religion.

You miss my point, it can't be laws, it was written by tons of people from different times. You can't say, "Hey, I'm gonna get a bunch of people to write laws for in a thousand years!"

Last edited Tue, 2nd Mar 2004, 2:49pm; edited 2 times in total.

Posted: Tue, 2nd Mar 2004, 2:46pm

Post 75 of 327

Simon K Jones

Force: 27955 | Joined: 1st Jan 2002 | Posts: 11683

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 5 Pro User MuzzlePlug User PowerPlug User PhotoKey 3 Plug-in User FXhome Movie Maker FXpreset Maker Windows User

FXhome Team Member

pooky wrote:

Well first of all the Bible was written by a lot of people, yet all their stories match.
No they don't. smile

There are all sorts of conflicting reports, so you have to take them all into account and come to your own conclusions, as Gibbo has done with Passion.

Understanding is always a three-edged sword - your side, my side, and the truth somewhere in-between.
Posted: Tue, 2nd Mar 2004, 2:48pm

Post 76 of 327

Pooky

Force: 4834 | Joined: 8th Jul 2003 | Posts: 5913

EffectsLab Lite User Windows User MacOS User FXhome Movie Maker

Gold Member

Hmm, you have an example?
Posted: Tue, 2nd Mar 2004, 2:54pm

Post 77 of 327

Simon K Jones

Force: 27955 | Joined: 1st Jan 2002 | Posts: 11683

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 5 Pro User MuzzlePlug User PowerPlug User PhotoKey 3 Plug-in User FXhome Movie Maker FXpreset Maker Windows User

FXhome Team Member

Unfortunately, I'm not personally as familiar with religious texts as I would like to be. However, this article has some interesting information relating to the movie and it's accuracy to detail:

http://www.adn.com/24hour/entertainment/story/1153373p-8036130c.html
Posted: Tue, 2nd Mar 2004, 3:12pm

Post 78 of 327

Pooky

Force: 4834 | Joined: 8th Jul 2003 | Posts: 5913

EffectsLab Lite User Windows User MacOS User FXhome Movie Maker

Gold Member

Hmm, the points in there say that some gospels say this, yet others aren't that specific. They don't contradict though.
Posted: Tue, 2nd Mar 2004, 3:38pm

Post 79 of 327

jaycoolyea

Force: 703 | Joined: 2nd Dec 2003 | Posts: 138

EffectsLab Lite User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

elementcinema wrote:



okay, the hare never existed, it was just to teach a lesson, but then how can you belive that jesus existed and it wasnt just a lesson for people.
there are several refrences to jesus in other religious texts. most religions believe that jesus was a prophet. now i know muslims do not believe in the bible, so how could he be considered a phophet if the people who wrote the bible made it up. not only in the bible is the crucifixion written, but also in other places, not remotely related to the bible.
Posted: Tue, 2nd Mar 2004, 5:08pm

Post 80 of 327

elementcinema

Force: 436 | Joined: 17th Dec 2003 | Posts: 814

Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

jaycoolyea, just because the people that live in aramiac lands now are muslim doesnt mean they were 4000 years ago man..muslims didnt write the bible, they just live where it was all based.
Posted: Tue, 2nd Mar 2004, 5:30pm

Post 81 of 327

JoseTheo

Force: 0 | Joined: 21st Jan 2004 | Posts: 12

Member

pooky wrote:


Now what I'm trying to say is that what the New Testaments say happened really happened. HOWEVER, the people writing it might have misinterpreted it. So Jesus existed, yet he may not have been the son of God. That is where personal opinion comes in.

The Old Testament, I believe, are simply stories that are meant to teach a lesson of some kind, like The Turtle and the Hare, there was never a hare and a rabbit that raced, it's only supposed to teach something.

Anyway, let's not turn this into another Religious debate.
Which means then that we have no record of history before Jesus' birth.. since the Bible is not only a book of religion but also a book that contains alot of history.
I respect your opinion.. I wish you could elaborate more and explain what its based on. I don't have to go into why people believe in the Bible, because that wouldnt matter to someone like you, who doesnt believe in it obviously, (I'm not saying this in any offensive way).. but for the people who do.. what is your opinion based on?
Posted: Tue, 2nd Mar 2004, 5:32pm

Post 82 of 327

jaycoolyea

Force: 703 | Joined: 2nd Dec 2003 | Posts: 138

EffectsLab Lite User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

the people who documented the crucifixion were not all neccisarily jewish/ christians who wanted to convince people jesus was the son of god, they were just documenting an event that took place. there are SEVERAL DIFFERENT accounts of this.

it happened. what are the chances dozens of men from different places, different religions, and different cultures 'make up' the exact same story, or even conspire together to write a BS story, it's not very likely. as far as we know today, jesus died on the cross. as far as we know, it's a fact.
Posted: Tue, 2nd Mar 2004, 5:35pm

Post 83 of 327

jaycoolyea

Force: 703 | Joined: 2nd Dec 2003 | Posts: 138

EffectsLab Lite User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

another thing, nothing in the bible has been PROVEN false, yet.

until there is something presented as factual written in the bible, that is proven false, i will continue to assume everything in there is, just about as close to the truth as you can get on this subject.
Posted: Tue, 2nd Mar 2004, 5:36pm

Post 84 of 327

Aculag

Force: 8365 | Joined: 21st Jun 2002 | Posts: 8581

EffectsLab Lite User VideoWrap User FXhome Movie Maker MacOS User

Gold Member

JoseTheo wrote:

Which means then that we have no record of history before Jesus' birth.. since the Bible is not only a book of religion but also a book that contains alot of history
What are you talking about? If you knew anything, you'd know that we have TONS of history from before Jesus was born. I don't understand your comment...
Posted: Tue, 2nd Mar 2004, 5:37pm

Post 85 of 327

elementcinema

Force: 436 | Joined: 17th Dec 2003 | Posts: 814

Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

what do you mean jay? i didnt quite get that..
Posted: Tue, 2nd Mar 2004, 5:49pm

Post 86 of 327

jaycoolyea

Force: 703 | Joined: 2nd Dec 2003 | Posts: 138

EffectsLab Lite User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

nothing stated in the Bible, that was presented as a fact, has been proven false. this means that, until proven otherwise, the Bible is completely true. people disagree with the religion concepts, but the facts remain unblemished. there have even been possible traces of Noah's Ark found.

http://www.tentmaker.org/WAR/HasNoahsArkBeenFound1.html

please, find a fact from the Bible that has been proven false. i'll even give you force if you find a genuine one.
Posted: Tue, 2nd Mar 2004, 5:51pm

Post 87 of 327

JoseTheo

Force: 0 | Joined: 21st Jan 2004 | Posts: 12

Member

Aculag wrote:

JoseTheo wrote:

Which means then that we have no record of history before Jesus' birth.. since the Bible is not only a book of religion but also a book that contains alot of history
What are you talking about? If you knew anything, you'd know that we have TONS of history from before Jesus was born. I don't understand your comment...
I wasnt saying that the bible is the only source of history that we have.. I'm not stupid enough to believe that there is no other recorded history in the bible.. there is however alot of history in it, and whether or not people believe its factual or not doesnt matter to me. All I know is that as someone posted a sceond ago (forgot your name), nothing said in the bible has been proven wrong.. everything has come true.. but thats a WHOOLLLLE other debate.

In essence what im trying to say is: I love you Aculag
Posted: Tue, 2nd Mar 2004, 5:51pm

Post 88 of 327

elementcinema

Force: 436 | Joined: 17th Dec 2003 | Posts: 814

Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

i think jose was being sarcastic.. wink
Posted: Tue, 2nd Mar 2004, 9:54pm

Post 89 of 327

Frozenpede

Force: 630 | Joined: 28th Jan 2004 | Posts: 1113

EffectsLab Lite User Windows User

Gold Member

Brettsta wrote:

Gibsons father is 100 percent antisemetic though. Not thinking the holocaust happened. Idiot. Thats why millions of jews were killed and scapegoated and sent to ghettos in Germany and Poland. Thats terrible to me. He doesnt believe it???!!?!? Its offensive, disrespectful, and anti semetic. sad
Ok, I wasnt going to say anything lest I be blasted by all who dont agree with me and they give me millions of negatives (as they did last time I disagreed with the majority on here) but since you just keep repeating it...
If you here the exact quote of what Mel Gibson's dad said, he never said that the holocaust never happened, he said that millions of Jews were allegedly killed in Germany and that millions of Russians died from impovrishment (they quoted him on Fox News, so Im going from memory)
what everyone was mad at him for was that he was sorta downplaying the whole thing. Really he just stated the truth, lots of people did die in Russia because of Socialist policies. Does this make the holocaust obsolete? of course not, really what this all boils down to is that people always have to have something to get mad at, and so now they are getting mad at Mel Gibson and they are digging up anything and everything they can. Ok, now go ahead and blast me out of the water for defending Mel Gibsons father. twisted Im ready
Posted: Tue, 2nd Mar 2004, 10:00pm

Post 90 of 327

Pooky

Force: 4834 | Joined: 8th Jul 2003 | Posts: 5913

EffectsLab Lite User Windows User MacOS User FXhome Movie Maker

Gold Member

Heh, I believe in the Bible, just differently.
Posted: Tue, 2nd Mar 2004, 10:20pm

Post 91 of 327

Frozenpede

Force: 630 | Joined: 28th Jan 2004 | Posts: 1113

EffectsLab Lite User Windows User

Gold Member

elementcinema wrote:

no offence to anyone here at all, this is just what i think and i dont want to start a ruckuss. I have my beliefs ofcourse as everyone else in this world. but can all of you honestly believe that the stories in the bible really happened? sure they have found archeological findings and what not but they still arent sure. but listen to this: if i write a book about myself that is completely false and just a bunch of lies and someone were to find it in thousands or years from now they will believe it. why not right? Or if someone were to find a beat up copy of a tom clancy book (sum or all fears for example), will they believe that a nuclear bomb really went off? i dunno, this may sound a little drastic but its what i think..
well, yes they have found archeological evidence, but I think its more indept then you beleive. They found Jericho, and the walls fell outward, thats impossible! there is no way that that city fell down other then what is described in the Bible. Then there is the matter of Jesus, there have been religions that use persecutions to grow (Islam) there have been religions that have survived persecution (cant think of names but I know they are there). However, how many religions actually grew at tremendous rates DURING persecution!? and we aint talking about some wimpy persecution neither where they just through you in jail, no this is the kind of persectution where the leader is crucified, where they burn you on the stake, feed you to lions, place burning plates of bronze on your chest, whip you , behead you, crucify you upside down. Just watching one of those would be enough to turn you off to the religion, especially when its just some dumb guy saying he's a messiah, your common loon walking the streets. No, these people saw something, something that they KNEW happened, something that convinced them that anything that the Romans (the masters of torture) threw at them would make no difference. All 12 of Jesus' disciples were killed (its recorded in more then just the Bible, its also in Roman government records and even historians wrote about some of the deaths) These people had seen miracles done that could not be accounted for. There is much more evidence that I dont have time to go into but you may want to read a book by Josh McDowell called "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" or you can check out this book by the same other that is entirly online (for your convinience biggrin )
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/jury/index.shtml
Posted: Tue, 2nd Mar 2004, 10:23pm

Post 92 of 327

Aculag

Force: 8365 | Joined: 21st Jun 2002 | Posts: 8581

EffectsLab Lite User VideoWrap User FXhome Movie Maker MacOS User

Gold Member

JoseTheo wrote:

In essence what im trying to say is: I love you Aculag
I love you too.
Posted: Tue, 2nd Mar 2004, 10:44pm

Post 93 of 327

elementcinema

Force: 436 | Joined: 17th Dec 2003 | Posts: 814

Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

frozenpede, yes i believe you about the whole 12 diciples but also how are we so sure that they saw these miracles? how do we know they arent crazy people? im pretty sure crazy people existed in those times am i right? hehe...im going to read this site you gave me and i thank you..

the walls of jericho are a little sketchy..yes it happened BUT nothing is for sure. other evidence could also be anything. nothing is 100% accurate. but forseriously (lol) what is the point in religion anyway? i never understood that..there are so many differences because of religions and it causes so much grief, so then why keep it up? people attend church yes, but why? if jesus really cared, or if god really cared then where are they now? people talk about encounters with them and that all you have to do is believe. Im not in a religion because i think its pointless, i have my beliefs but i dont need to preach them or keep them "updated" in an orderly fashion do i?
Posted: Tue, 2nd Mar 2004, 11:25pm

Post 94 of 327

averagejoe

Force: 3592 | Joined: 31st Mar 2001 | Posts: 710

VisionLab User PhotoKey 2 Pro User FXpreset Maker Windows User

SuperUser

There are plenty of non "biblical" accounts of Jesus of Nazereth. Some contemporay of him and others with in 50 to 100 years of his death.
The historian Josephus talked about him a bit. There have been load of research papers and books written in recent past and delve into the historical figure Jesus of Nazereth.

Islam, does infact count Jesus of Navereth as a prophet of sorts. However the details of his birth and life differ abit. In the Islamic tradition there was not "Emaculate Conception" in fact Mary ( Marium) had Jesus in the wilderness alone. Not to much unlike Hagar giving birth to Abrahams son Ishmel.

I am rambling here but my point is chances are Jesus of Navereth most likely did exisit. Whether it is exactly as the "Bible" puts forth is debatable.
But not provable from either side. There have been 2000 years since his life and it is hard (if not impossible) to find physical evidence now of any event portrayed.

I am by no means a Theology or Religous Studies expert but I read alot. And it makes me ticked when I see people spouting off like they know all there is and their opinion of a situation is correct. In order to truly have faith that he was the Son of Man you need to see it from all angles.

There are non "cannonized" ancient "sacred" text about Jesus all over the internet and any bookstore/library worth it's salt. Gnostic Gospels which the Roman Catholic church counted as heretical have lots of detials the excepted New Testament leave out. Most of which pertain to how human the individual truly was. I am getting off track here but my point and advice is to read all you can before you write views off as "pointless" and stupid. As Tarn stated earlier the Truth is mostly likely somewhere in the middle. It our job to sort through it and come to our own educated decision.

And when our logical minds come to a place where we cant exactly put our finger on it, faith comes in. Faith does not have to be blind. Leave your mind open.
Posted: Wed, 3rd Mar 2004, 2:18am

Post 95 of 327

Frozenpede

Force: 630 | Joined: 28th Jan 2004 | Posts: 1113

EffectsLab Lite User Windows User

Gold Member

elementcinema wrote:

what is the point in religion anyway? i never understood that..there are so many differences because of religions and it causes so much grief, so then why keep it up? people attend church yes, but why? if jesus really cared, or if god really cared then where are they now? people talk about encounters with them and that all you have to do is believe. Im not in a religion because i think its pointless, i have my beliefs but i dont need to preach them or keep them "updated" in an orderly fashion do i?
Here's the thing, I am just like you, I want proof before I give my whole life away. However, what I had to come to realize is that we arnt as "in charge" of our lives as we may like. I know thats not what anyone wants to hear, but either we can spend our whole lives doubting what is 65%-75% true and beleive what is much more prefferable to us (that there is no God and we are ultimatly in charge of our lives) or we can except what is most likley and live our lives to the fullest with what is given us. We didnt get to choose if God made us, we didnt get to have a say in Gods motives. Whether or not its pointless is not up to us, it just is. I know..."thats no the way to convict someone of your religion" but its not suppose to be a religion centered around us or what we want or beleive to be moral or the best choice, because in the end, what we beleive to be the best will be the worst. Only God knows what is best. Iam just as human as you, but I cant change what is, none of us can.
Posted: Wed, 3rd Mar 2004, 3:46am

Post 96 of 327

FiveIronFrenzy

Force: 464 | Joined: 25th Dec 2003 | Posts: 438

Windows User

Gold Member

Um....I don't get what you mean by:

elementcinema wrote:

if jesus really cared, or if god really cared then where are they now?


Please explain.
Posted: Wed, 3rd Mar 2004, 3:51am

Post 97 of 327

FiveIronFrenzy

Force: 464 | Joined: 25th Dec 2003 | Posts: 438

Windows User

Gold Member

Brettsta wrote:

Gibsons father is 100 percent antisemetic though.
Who cares about Mel Gibsons father. Mel Gibson is the one who made the film not his father.

Plus, what does that fact have to do with anything that Mel or this movie is about?
Posted: Wed, 3rd Mar 2004, 6:11am

Post 98 of 327

elementcinema

Force: 436 | Joined: 17th Dec 2003 | Posts: 814

Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

what i meant was: where are they now through all of the bads things happening in our world? ive heard many different arguments about this but jesus was there when he was needed the least. what was the purpose of jesus when he lived? (the whole time when he lived and then was crucified).

If he was the "king" of jews then where was he during the holocaust? and not just the jews but all the religions that suffered by the hand of the nazis. these are all "gods people" but why didnt he stick up for them? how can true evil like that become is such control its sick? I have heard statements made from some jehovahs witnesses saying that it is because god is not in control, satan is. to the witnesses, satan is in control right now and there will be a time when god will re-take the control and thus will be the apocalypse. i may be wrong and im not quite sure about this.
Posted: Wed, 3rd Mar 2004, 11:07am

Post 99 of 327

Simon K Jones

Force: 27955 | Joined: 1st Jan 2002 | Posts: 11683

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 5 Pro User MuzzlePlug User PowerPlug User PhotoKey 3 Plug-in User FXhome Movie Maker FXpreset Maker Windows User

FXhome Team Member

These questions have been debated over and over again, and there are no clear cut answers to them. We even had a big debate on this very forum just a couple of weeks back, so let's try and keep the discussion here relevant to the movie please.

On which note:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/film/3515997.stm

Which is more important, do people reckon? Biblical iconography or historical accuracy?
Posted: Wed, 3rd Mar 2004, 2:08pm

Post 100 of 327

elementcinema

Force: 436 | Joined: 17th Dec 2003 | Posts: 814

Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

this is relevant to the movies..seeing how is this story in the movie based on fact or fiction?
Posted: Wed, 3rd Mar 2004, 9:58pm

Post 101 of 327

Narluin Arthalion

Force: 0 | Joined: 20th Feb 2004 | Posts: 42

Member

I don't have time to read this entire forum but I'll say this much about the who killed him debate.

Jews: Killed Jesus out of misunderstanding, ignorance, and the pride of the Pharisees. The Jews gave the official orders to put Him to death...
Jesus said: "Father forgive them for they know not what they do"....

Romans: Killed Jesus from orders. They phisically speaking put the spikes in his wrists, floged him, crowned him with thorns, and both Jew and Roman alike spat on him...

But the deciding factor is...
All people: Killed Jesus because of sin. Jesus died to forgive our sins. In the long run it was really Jew and Gentile. How can this be Anti-Jew when all are responsible for His death. He died because and for all people...

Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"

Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not parrish but have everlasting life."

Satan wants you to think that it is against the Jews because he doesn't want you to see it. He wants you to keep away because he knows that people who watch it will see an accurate description of what Christ had to go through to forgive all of us and that those who watch it might rededicate their heart, mind, and soul to Christ.

I also don't care if Mel Gibson or whoever made it. I didn't even know who Mel Gibson was until I heard about this movie. Its not about Mel Gibson. Its about what Jesus Christ did for you. Mel Gibson actually did a brave thing to make this movie. He wasn't ashamed to make this movie about THE MOST IMPORTANT EVENT IN HISTORY. He knew what was at stake and he knew that his Savoir is more than his own publicity.
Posted: Wed, 3rd Mar 2004, 10:09pm

Post 102 of 327

Coureur de Bois

Force: 1394 | Joined: 23rd Sep 2002 | Posts: 1127

VideoWrap User Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

Narluin Arthalion wrote:


Satan wants you to think that it is against the Jews because he doesn't want you to see it...
That's the funniest thing I've read in a while. You know your film is contraversial when even Satan doesn't want you to see it... It doesn't get much better than that... hehehe
Posted: Wed, 3rd Mar 2004, 10:39pm

Post 103 of 327

Gibs

Force: 1663 | Joined: 21st May 2002 | Posts: 1611

CompositeLab Pro User FXhome Movie Maker FXpreset Maker MacOS User

Gold Member

I'll go ahead and respond to what element said:

Basically, the whole reason Jesus lived was to die. Yes, he did good things while on earth, but that wasn't the reason he came. He was sent to live life as a human, so basically it was God experiencing what life on earth was like.

You made the comment that God was not there during the holocaust. While this is a valid assumption, it is wrong. God is always here, but bad things do happen, as a result of Satan. It's all part of life, not the way it was originally intended, but the way it is now, with sin in the world.

Anyway, what I thought of the film. It was very moving. It was not gory for no reason (like when the soldier got his ear cut off, you barely saw any blood). But it was bloody in relation to Jesus, and this helped me get a different perspective on things. I've never pictured the beatings He took as bad as they really were.
Posted: Thu, 4th Mar 2004, 12:12am

Post 104 of 327

4036Douglas

Force: 920 | Joined: 8th Jun 2003 | Posts: 893

EffectsLab Lite User Windows User

Gold Member

Here's some quote I got from some book...
It goes along the lines of, "Believing in god is a safe bet... because if there is a god and you believe in him, then you go to heaven when you die. If there is no god and you believe in him, then when you die what happens? Nothing."
I don't really want to get into a giant debate, so there's my 2 cents.
Posted: Thu, 4th Mar 2004, 4:07am

Post 105 of 327

Gibs

Force: 1663 | Joined: 21st May 2002 | Posts: 1611

CompositeLab Pro User FXhome Movie Maker FXpreset Maker MacOS User

Gold Member

That's an interesting point Douglas, and would be 100% true except for the fact that there's more to most religions than just believing in a supreme ruler (whether it be God, Allah, or whoever).
Posted: Thu, 4th Mar 2004, 2:20pm

Post 106 of 327

elementcinema

Force: 436 | Joined: 17th Dec 2003 | Posts: 814

Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

believing in god is one thing, but having a religion to preach what you believe in the matter is another. To me its intirely pointless..i just dont think that religion is needed..
Posted: Thu, 4th Mar 2004, 2:31pm

Post 107 of 327

Pooky

Force: 4834 | Joined: 8th Jul 2003 | Posts: 5913

EffectsLab Lite User Windows User MacOS User FXhome Movie Maker

Gold Member

Let's not start another debate, this thread is already 8 pages long. But let's just say that a lot of scholars don't see the need for school, but there is actually a big need for it.
Posted: Thu, 4th Mar 2004, 2:37pm

Post 108 of 327

elementcinema

Force: 436 | Joined: 17th Dec 2003 | Posts: 814

Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

well seeing how they are scholars..then obviously they wouldnt need school. they are already so smart. lol..but explain what the need of religion is for me please..ive never heard a good valid reason..i just asked two friends and one said :"faith"..faith? lol, you can have faith without a religion. and the other said "god asked people to come together and do this so they have something to believe in" but you can always have something to believe in without religion..
Posted: Thu, 4th Mar 2004, 2:39pm

Post 109 of 327

Pooky

Force: 4834 | Joined: 8th Jul 2003 | Posts: 5913

EffectsLab Lite User Windows User MacOS User FXhome Movie Maker

Gold Member

Well technically if there is a god, then it would help if you do what he asks you to do... I mean what's so scary about being Christian? I'm Christian, and I'm not dead. razz
Posted: Thu, 4th Mar 2004, 6:40pm

Post 110 of 327

Frozenpede

Force: 630 | Joined: 28th Jan 2004 | Posts: 1113

EffectsLab Lite User Windows User

Gold Member

elementcinema wrote:

well seeing how they are scholars..then obviously they wouldnt need school. they are already so smart. lol..but explain what the need of religion is for me please..ive never heard a good valid reason..i just asked two friends and one said :"faith"..faith? lol, you can have faith without a religion. and the other said "god asked people to come together and do this so they have something to believe in" but you can always have something to believe in without religion..
haha, if we could CHOOSE religions I would be Rastafarian, smoking it up all day, and hey Reggae is awesome! biggrin but you dont choose relgion, really I hate the word religion because it dosnt capture the real meaning. Religion implies something that you choose for the convenience of it or for the heck of i. I am a Christian because I see no other choice. The way I see it, you either go to heaven or hell. I didnt just wake up one morning and say to myself " I think Ill do one of those religions now" In fact I fought Christianity as much as I could! but God is, and so we worship him.

I know that at first Christianity looks like a dead end, and a serious bore (at least I thought so) but the truth is that life is so much better when you follow the guidelines that God has set out for us, and when you really seek him. Dating is not a problem, there are thousends of beutiful Christian girls who you can have a clean and self-respecting relation with. Its not the end of fun hanging with your friends either. Sure, some want nothing to do with you once you are a Christian but you can find new friends. Life is different yes, but not over biggrin
Posted: Fri, 5th Mar 2004, 6:10pm

Post 111 of 327

anonymous

why do conversations such as this always spawn from the mention of Jesus? it's as if the word Jesus automatically sparks a fire to fuel a heated debate. that always seems odd to me............
Posted: Fri, 5th Mar 2004, 7:38pm

Post 112 of 327

Arktic

Force: 9977 | Joined: 10th Nov 2003 | Posts: 2785

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 2 Pro User FXhome Movie Maker FXpreset Maker Windows User MacOS User

SuperUser

frozenpede wrote:

but you dont choose relgion
Don't be daft. Perhaps you didn't - but there are countless others who have 'chosen' the religion they wish to live their lives by. Just because you didn't doesn't mean that other people don't.

Think of all the people who 'convert' to Buddhism or whatever, after years of being non-religious. To say that religion isn't a choice is silly.

Arktic.
Posted: Fri, 5th Mar 2004, 9:11pm

Post 113 of 327

elementcinema

Force: 436 | Joined: 17th Dec 2003 | Posts: 814

Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

A BELIEVER wrote:

why do conversations such as this always spawn from the mention of Jesus? it's as if the word Jesus automatically sparks a fire to fuel a heated debate. that always seems odd to me............
this conversation is absolutely fine man..nothing is "heated" up at all..read the whole thing before saying somehting like that..otherwise youll just be brewing up something yourself.. biggrin
Posted: Fri, 5th Mar 2004, 10:24pm

Post 114 of 327

anonymous

sorry man, your right element, this conversation is far from heated. i merely used that word two play off the "spark" and "fuel" thing i was going for.

but besides the one word i used incorrectly, do you understand the point of what i was saying? someone says theyre islamic and believe in mohammed as a prophet of God, noone questions that, because we have learned to be more "tolerant" of those beliefs. however if someone mentions Jesus as their Saviour, *typically* people are turned off by this and have grown less "tolerant" and more suscetible to arguements. this is just something i have noticed is on an increase.

i cant tell from reading your posts: are you seriously asking questions because youre interested or are you defending your thoughts? either one is fine, but due to only reading it from the computer i cannot tell your stance.
- i johnson
Posted: Fri, 5th Mar 2004, 10:39pm

Post 115 of 327

FiveIronFrenzy

Force: 464 | Joined: 25th Dec 2003 | Posts: 438

Windows User

Gold Member

What about Zoroastirian? biggrin

neutral Nathan
Posted: Sat, 6th Mar 2004, 3:30am

Post 116 of 327

anonymous

Well, for all you "Super-Christians" out there, this next part is going to piss you off and probably hate me even more. You know what, I dont care!

Youre telling me Jesus died for "your" sins? Well, according to your own bible, this is not allowed.

Deuteronomy 24:16
"Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin."

Dont believe me? Check it in your bible or whatever you call it. And no, Jews as a whole did not kill Jesus. Romans did. A group of radical Jews told the Romans to put Jesus to death. They told the Romans to put him to death, not how to put him to death. Plus saying Jews as a whole killed Jeses is like saying that Muslims as a whole killed over 1000 people on 9/11/2001. It wasnt Muslims as a whole but a bunch of radical Muslims.
Posted: Sat, 6th Mar 2004, 6:09am

Post 117 of 327

jaycoolyea

Force: 703 | Joined: 2nd Dec 2003 | Posts: 138

EffectsLab Lite User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

this was a response to my forum, why did you post it here?

it doesnt even fit the converation...
Posted: Sat, 6th Mar 2004, 10:27am

Post 118 of 327

elementcinema

Force: 436 | Joined: 17th Dec 2003 | Posts: 814

Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

who is he? i wonder if he is someone who doesnt have the balls to use their real name..
Posted: Sat, 6th Mar 2004, 10:45am

Post 119 of 327

Narluin Arthalion

Force: 0 | Joined: 20th Feb 2004 | Posts: 42

Member

Satan tried to tempt Jesus using misinterpreted scripture quotes. Jesus fought back with more scripture properly used.

The book of Deuteronomy was a law book for the Jews. Anything bad you do is called a sin in this case. In this scince sin meant crime. They physically died because of crimes. Its like the death penalty.

We as humans are born with a Sinful Nature (another meaning for "sins") and are condemed the moment we are conceived. Romans 5:8 "But God demonstrates His love for us in this: while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

God is one person existing in 3
God the father, son, and holy spirit.
The son, Jesus, died for us so that we still physicaly die becuase of our sinful nature but spiritualy we don't have to die. And that is where a "Choice" must be made.

Upon reading the word super-Christian, what came to my mind is that there are people that think if they live a good life then they will be able to get to heaven, and there are also people that can be described as them thinking they are holier-than-thou. But there are others that don't believe that good deeds or absence of bad deeds gets them to heaven. Those know and admitt that they are just as much trash as the rest of the world is. They know that they are sinful. God desires those that will admitt that they have sinned and doesn't desire if anyone "acts good" thinking thats the key to His kingdom. True Christians aren't perfect, just forgivin.
(Matthew 9: 12-13) When Jesus heard that, He said to them "Those who are well have no need of a doctor, but those who are sick." "But go an learn what this means, 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice.' I did not come to call the rightous but sinners to repentance."

And something you should know if you claim to "not have a religion" and don't believe in God.

Islam is a belief that Allah is God.
Hinduism is a belief that everyone is god.
Aethism is a belief that there is no god.
Aethism is a religion so there for you are religious.
And also religion is a coverup story to make you think your ok.

I don't wan't religion. I wan't Jesus Christ. I know that I am not ok. I am man and I am sinful. I can not save myself from condemnation through good works. I need Christ. Christ is my Lord and only through Him and His Glory, and His crucifiction I am saved.
But He also loves and desires you. It is time for your choice and your choice is set before you now.
Posted: Sat, 6th Mar 2004, 3:24pm

Post 120 of 327

Frozenpede

Force: 630 | Joined: 28th Jan 2004 | Posts: 1113

EffectsLab Lite User Windows User

Gold Member

Arktic wrote:

frozenpede wrote:

but you dont choose relgion
Don't be daft. Perhaps you didn't - but there are countless others who have 'chosen' the religion they wish to live their lives by. Just because you didn't doesn't mean that other people don't.

Think of all the people who 'convert' to Buddhism or whatever, after years of being non-religious. To say that religion isn't a choice is silly.

Arktic.
haha, ask a Buddhist if they beleive in Christianity, or Zoroastrian if they beleive in nervana. In their minds they didnt choose their religions either, in their minds there is no other true religion. A religion is not a flavor of the month, or a convenience. A religion is something you do because it is the only truth.
Posted: Sat, 6th Mar 2004, 3:27pm

Post 121 of 327

Hybrid-Halo

Force: 9315 | Joined: 7th Feb 2003 | Posts: 3367

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 3 Pro User MuzzlePlug User PowerPlug User FXpreset Maker Windows User MacOS User

SuperUser

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Posted: Sat, 6th Mar 2004, 11:52pm

Post 122 of 327

Arktic

Force: 9977 | Joined: 10th Nov 2003 | Posts: 2785

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 2 Pro User FXhome Movie Maker FXpreset Maker Windows User MacOS User

SuperUser

frozenpede wrote:

A religion is something you do because it is the only truth.
Yeah - that's why I'm religious; because I've chosen to believe that it's true that there is a God

in their minds there is no other true religion
I didn't suggest that. But just because someone only belives in one religion, and not the others, it doesn't mean that they haven't chosen what to believe.

I'm not saying that people should go around changing their beliefs all the time or something - merely stating the fact that people can, and do, decide what to believe. I know I did - and I know lots of other people who have as well.

Arktic.
Posted: Sun, 7th Mar 2004, 12:17am

Post 123 of 327

Frozenpede

Force: 630 | Joined: 28th Jan 2004 | Posts: 1113

EffectsLab Lite User Windows User

Gold Member

Ok Arktic, I think we are saying the same thing in way different ways. Yes, I guess you can say that you chose to beleive what you do. But once you choose to beleine you no longer look at it as a choice but rather as a fact, that is beleiving full heartidly. After all if you look at Christianity as no more then a choice then its gonna be pretty hard down the road. I think that we just having a difference in the meaning of a word more then anything else though biggrin
Posted: Sun, 7th Mar 2004, 12:34am

Post 124 of 327

elementcinema

Force: 436 | Joined: 17th Dec 2003 | Posts: 814

Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

I have an idea..lets end this discussion..its getting old, dont any of you agree? biggrin
Posted: Sun, 7th Mar 2004, 12:37am

Post 125 of 327

Frozenpede

Force: 630 | Joined: 28th Jan 2004 | Posts: 1113

EffectsLab Lite User Windows User

Gold Member

hehe.. no not really I could eat this stuff up all day! biggrin
Posted: Sun, 7th Mar 2004, 12:41am

Post 126 of 327

elementcinema

Force: 436 | Joined: 17th Dec 2003 | Posts: 814

Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

gotta know where to draw the line tho..
Posted: Sun, 7th Mar 2004, 1:15am

Post 127 of 327

jaycoolyea

Force: 703 | Joined: 2nd Dec 2003 | Posts: 138

EffectsLab Lite User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

Helios1 wrote:

Well, for all you "Super-Christians" out there, this next part is going to piss you off and probably hate me even more. You know what, I dont care!

Youre telling me Jesus died for "your" sins? Well, according to your own bible, this is not allowed.

Deuteronomy 24:16
"Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin."

Dont believe me? Check it in your bible or whatever you call it. And no, Jews as a whole did not kill Jesus. Romans did. A group of radical Jews told the Romans to put Jesus to death. They told the Romans to put him to death, not how to put him to death. Plus saying Jews as a whole killed Jeses is like saying that Muslims as a whole killed over 1000 people on 9/11/2001. It wasnt Muslims as a whole but a bunch of radical Muslims.
this is someone who got to fxhome from a link on my site. we have a passion of christ discussion there, and he j8ust copied and pasted one of his responses on fxhome for some reason...

he's not an fxhomer, so he doesnt have a real name.

here's his ludicrous post.

http://jaycoolyea.proboards27.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=movies&num=1077942957&start=15
Posted: Sun, 7th Mar 2004, 1:38am

Post 128 of 327

JohnCarter

Force: 3295 | Joined: 11th Mar 2003 | Posts: 1078

VisionLab User Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

same guy as before wrote:


but besides the one word i used incorrectly, do you understand the point of what i was saying? someone says theyre islamic and believe in mohammed as a prophet of God, noone questions that, because we have learned to be more "tolerant" of those beliefs. however if someone mentions Jesus as their Saviour, *typically* people are turned off by this and have grown less "tolerant" and more suscetible to arguements. this is just something i have noticed is on an increase.
- i johnson
This may have something to do with (some) Christians trying to push their beliefs down the throats of everybody for centuries, sometimes violently (Crusades anyone?)... Radical Muslims are doing the same... Just wait a few decades and everybody will be as sick of Mahomet than they are of Jesus...

As for this boring ongoing debate, it is pretty sterile. All sides are firmly entrenched and the conversation goes nowhere. I am really tired of it. Can we just stick to filmmaking? That's the primary purpose of this board...
Posted: Sun, 7th Mar 2004, 7:33am

Post 129 of 327

Frozenpede

Force: 630 | Joined: 28th Jan 2004 | Posts: 1113

EffectsLab Lite User Windows User

Gold Member

well, this may surprise Helios1, but I dont think anyone got really mad at that statement. I just look at it as he is looking in from another point of veiw and hasnt really been taught the fundementals of Christianity (otherwise he would no the difference of importance between the Old Testament and the New Testament in the eyes of a Christian)

As for JohnCarter and elementicinema who have both asked us to stop the debate. I dont think this is a debate anymore, its more become a place of general chater for the FXhome Christians, and really Im glad for it cause its a nice breath of fresh air (beleive it or not this is somewhat of a normal discussion among Christians, we are always wondering about one theological beleif or another because so much of our lives revolve around it) please dont see this as shoving it down your throat cuz really I think we more just chatering amongst ourselves.
Posted: Sun, 7th Mar 2004, 4:27pm

Post 130 of 327

JohnCarter

Force: 3295 | Joined: 11th Mar 2003 | Posts: 1078

VisionLab User Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

The shoving down the throat allusion was in reference to the other guy comment about why people seem to be more and more intolerant of that "Jesus" issue... It wasn't referring to the current thread specifically.

As for the whole religious debate, it was fun for a while but it's getting tiresome now and it is starting to feel like the site is somehwat hijacked... Everytime a "Christian" movie comes out, there's a thread about it. And since Passion made gazillions, it will only be the beginning. It is not a specifically Christian board, it's an FX board, everybody of all faiths are welcome. But it can be a turnoff for others as it seems like "Christian" threads are popping all over like mushrooms. One thread is enough guys. Have fun with it. But don't start a religious thread for every single "religion" movie out there. At one point there was 2 or 3 Passion threads, a Judas thread, a heated religious debate (of which I was a guilty part of) and so on. Enough is enough. Back to filmmaking please.
Posted: Mon, 8th Mar 2004, 6:37pm

Post 131 of 327

anonymous

Brettsta said:

"I have a mall near me that has a food court and movie theatre. I went to where the theater was and looked to see if there were any movies. There was a sign that said:

The Movie

The Passion of the Christ

Has violent and very gory scenes. Some people may be offended by this movie."


I found that pretty funny.... I wonder if they posted the same warning for Kill Bill?


Anyways, I'm lined up to see the film tomorrow. I think the bottom line is that you'll get out of the movie whatever you take into it. If you think the Gospels are bunk or you know next to nothing about the Crucifixion, then most likely you won't enjoy the movie. You may appreciate the technical aspect of the cinemetography, but the only thing you'll see is some Jewish guy being brutalized for 2 hours. If you are a Christian or someone who knows a great deal about the Crucifixion, it may make you appreciate the suffering that Christ went through.

One comment though on a personal side. I take great offense at the concept of Christians "shoving religion down people's throats". As a christian myself, I share my faith with others because I truly feel it is God's plan for salvation and I want to see everyone accept this free gift. I share my faith because I care about the people I share it with.

Imagine if I were a scientist and discovered the cure for cancer, but I never shared the discovery with anyone. Let's assume it's a cure that is easily administered and free for whoever wanted it. How would the world view that kind of a person? This is the reason christians are motivated to share their faith, not because we want to strong-arm everyone into "joining the club", but because we don't want to see anyone perish.

I guess it really boils down to if you are willing to believe it or not, but it seems to me that alot of you are making spiritual decisions about your own soul based on not alot of research. Just because you dismiss something or choose not to engage in discussions about it doesn't make it untrue. Good luck- choose wisely.
Posted: Mon, 8th Mar 2004, 6:42pm

Post 132 of 327

elementcinema

Force: 436 | Joined: 17th Dec 2003 | Posts: 814

Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

like i said before, lets cut this thread loose. its getting boring and annoying now. you can only say so much before it gets pointless

sorry my mistake

Last edited Mon, 8th Mar 2004, 7:22pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Mon, 8th Mar 2004, 7:08pm

Post 133 of 327

anonymous

Oh my Head! To you have any idea what you are talking about? Jesus wasn't from Jewish decent? This is what I'm talking about....No research, just spouting off something you might have heard somewhere on the internet. For real dude- if you're going to go around lamblasting something, please make sure you do a bit of research. And if you're tired of this discussion don't post in the thread.
Posted: Mon, 8th Mar 2004, 7:28pm

Post 134 of 327

elementcinema

Force: 436 | Joined: 17th Dec 2003 | Posts: 814

Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

who are you? do you even have an account on this site? if not, then leave, you cant just come here and post crap like you own the place. i made a mistake, so what? and before you say anything about people lambasting anything at all, how about you take a look at what youre doing on a site you do not belong to. prove me wrong and login. show us who you are coward. this isnt a forum just for anybody. either you make films or you dont. choose. and then leave
Posted: Mon, 8th Mar 2004, 8:15pm

Post 135 of 327

unclepain

Force: 482 | Joined: 8th Mar 2002 | Posts: 192

Gold Member

I'm not a coward, I'm just an idiot. (I forgot to log in when I posted) Anyways, I didn't realize you had to be a member here to share an opinion.

Listen man, I'm not trying to dog you out but when you start pimp slapping me and start saying I don't know what I'm talking about and then proceed to make the most rediculous statement about Jesus that I've ever heard, well it just proves my point. People are forming lifelong opinions on something that I think is the most important decision of your life based on nothing more than misinformation and your personal rationalizations regardless of research. That's just a dangerous place to be man. Like I said- Choose wisely.... or don't.... it's your life.
Posted: Mon, 8th Mar 2004, 8:29pm

Post 136 of 327

elementcinema

Force: 436 | Joined: 17th Dec 2003 | Posts: 814

Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

okay listen, ive said this before in this thread and ill say it again. just because you have had research on the subject doesnt make it true or right. no one knows for sure about this subject whether or not any of it is true. sure there is physical evidence sort of on the subject but it isnt entirely certain. how do we even know jesus existed and the bible wasnt used to teach people lessons? you formed a life long opinion on research that isnt certain of approval. and whats wrong with people making life long opinions? nothing. let them, because when you come on here preaching or saying they are wrong then you have something wrong.
Posted: Mon, 8th Mar 2004, 9:48pm

Post 137 of 327

unclepain

Force: 482 | Joined: 8th Mar 2002 | Posts: 192

Gold Member

Nothing is entirely certain, but there came a time in my life when I needed to know as best I could what the truth was about the things I believed. I was raised in a christian home and I adopted a lot of my parents beliefs at a young age. In college I fell away from those teachings and wasn't sure about anything. In fact, I think you could call me an agnostic. I wasn't so arrogant to make a declaration that there was no God, I was just saying that I didn't really know one way or the other. So, I started to study the scriptures. I read books about why the bible is historically accurate. I read books on why Jesus claimed he was the Messiah and what evidences there were for that. I weighed all these things and balanced that against the evidences of the spiritual world in my own life and came to the conclusion that made the most sense to me and had historical proofs to back it up.

Most people will never do this. Instead, most will just decide one way or the other based on nothing more than how they feel about it. Some will just refuse to even make a decision and come into discussions like this telling people to stop talking about it.

Hey, I'm not telling you what to believe, I'm just saying when it comes to a matter of heaven or hell, you might want to be a little less cavalier about the whole thing. To casually dismiss the possibility of the existence of God and what he might have done to allow entrance into his kingdom is just plain foolish. But like I said, it's your life.
Posted: Mon, 8th Mar 2004, 10:01pm

Post 138 of 327

Gibs

Force: 1663 | Joined: 21st May 2002 | Posts: 1611

CompositeLab Pro User FXhome Movie Maker FXpreset Maker MacOS User

Gold Member

I agree with you 100% unclepain. Most Christians that grow up that way just sort of take everything from what they heard growing up, but never really investigate it. Sort of like having your parents' faith.

I think everyone should really study and figure out why they believe what they believe. Unfortunately, few people do this.
Posted: Mon, 8th Mar 2004, 10:08pm

Post 139 of 327

elementcinema

Force: 436 | Joined: 17th Dec 2003 | Posts: 814

Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

okay..thats great and all about you and your research but i suggest not to take it too seriously. you may think it makes sense in some ways (i dont know how) but there might be a time where you will be very dissapointed when you may be proven wrong. people who get too spiritual about it (to me) is a nono. because its like a relationship, you arent sure if you are going to be with this person for the rest of your life and when its over it will hurt because you were proven wrong. this is my humble opinion. another thing is that i believe heaven and hell were created to keep people civilized back when there was no law enforcement. so if someone were to commit a wrongful account they may think about it twice before hand. because im sure they dont want to go to "hell". the same goes with god. I believe god was created because things were hard to answer so many thousands of years ago so they just figured a superior being created everything and is the answer to everything. now see when i think about all this it just seems all psychological. its so people have something to believe when there are no answers. all of that makes alot more sense than what you believe in my opinion..seems more logical than anything really..
Posted: Mon, 8th Mar 2004, 10:11pm

Post 140 of 327

unclepain

Force: 482 | Joined: 8th Mar 2002 | Posts: 192

Gold Member

And that's the real shame isn't it? Most people here will do more research about what computer they should buy next than where they will spend eternity once this short life is done. It doesn't make any sense to me.

Trust me- I was in the same position as alot of you guys were. I didn't believe anything was true. Some aspects of christianity just didn't make sense. I was skeptical of anyone who claimed to be a christian and thought they were just brainwashed. I needed proof too. I think I found that, but that was a personal discovery after alot of searching.

Hey, I'm never going to be able to force anyone to believe the same things I believe. You have to make those decisions on your own. Just make sure they are INFORMED decisions.
Posted: Mon, 8th Mar 2004, 11:19pm

Post 141 of 327

elementcinema

Force: 436 | Joined: 17th Dec 2003 | Posts: 814

Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

the only good decision is your instinct i think..and my instinct tells me to keep away from religion and its crap
Posted: Tue, 9th Mar 2004, 12:48am

Post 142 of 327

unclepain

Force: 482 | Joined: 8th Mar 2002 | Posts: 192

Gold Member

Well, good luck with that.
Posted: Tue, 9th Mar 2004, 12:15pm

Post 143 of 327

Sollthar

Force: 13360 | Joined: 30th Oct 2001 | Posts: 6094

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 2 Pro User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User MacOS User

SuperUser

my instinct tells me to keep away from religion and its crap
Funny, it's reason that tells me the same... wink
Posted: Tue, 9th Mar 2004, 5:33pm

Post 144 of 327

Arktic

Force: 9977 | Joined: 10th Nov 2003 | Posts: 2785

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 2 Pro User FXhome Movie Maker FXpreset Maker Windows User MacOS User

SuperUser

"most will just decide one way or the other based on nothing more than how they feel about it"
But uncle pain, you can't just dismiss faith! That's what religion is based on, and some people just have a feeling that what they believe is right. To say that these people are being irrational because they haven't studied theology is a bit of a generalisation, don't you think?
Posted: Tue, 9th Mar 2004, 6:43pm

Post 145 of 327

unclepain

Force: 482 | Joined: 8th Mar 2002 | Posts: 192

Gold Member

Of course it requires faith, but that faith needs to be a result of something more than what you decided sounded good to you that day. I'm not saying you need to be a full on bible theologian, but how can anyone make any kind of decision about the possibility of the existence of God with no basis for that decision. I needed some kind of proof, and I found that, but it didn't take me all the way to belief. I still needed to make that step on my own.

Listen, you guys make your own decisions, but a decision made without all of the proper information is an ignorant one. I'm not trying to slam anyone, that's just the truth.
Posted: Tue, 9th Mar 2004, 6:50pm

Post 146 of 327

anonymous

the truth? hmm, you cant really say that. before you did your research on everything you believe in now you had an opinion of everything. so that would mean you are ignorant for having an opinion back then too. but i dont see it that way. people who take it too seriously arent going to get far "spiritually" , if thats what you think. Its all mental. just because you have beliefs in something so strong doesnt make you a better person, and it doesnt make anyone less of a person. Sure research is a good thing to do but not all research is true. Like the research that you have for example. you arent sure if it is 100% true or not. but you seem to want to base everything on it. so in a way you might want to call it instinct, because really you are putting so much faith into your research you swear by it now. and i think instinct is the only thing that can compare to something like that. but dont tell people they are ignorant because they havent done any research, they are intitled to their own opinions for their own reasons. I havent done any research (as much as you) and i take offence to when you say im ignorant.
Posted: Tue, 9th Mar 2004, 6:53pm

Post 147 of 327

anonymous

[/quote]To say that these people are being irrational because they haven't studied theology is a bit of a generalisation, don't you think?[/quote]

a generalisation? its more than a generalisation, he is being pretty specific about what he is saying. he isnt generalising anything really..he is saying that people who dont do their research are ignorant or irrational. i dont think he was generalising it in anyway. he means everyone.
Posted: Tue, 9th Mar 2004, 6:57pm

Post 148 of 327

elementcinema

Force: 436 | Joined: 17th Dec 2003 | Posts: 814

Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

im so lazy and forget to login.. wink
Posted: Tue, 9th Mar 2004, 7:18pm

Post 149 of 327

anonymous

That's exactly what I'm saying. If you do not gather the proper information before making a decision, it's an ignorant decision. That's the very definition of ignorance....

ig·no·rant ( P ) Pronunciation Key (gnr-nt)
adj.
Lacking education or knowledge.
Showing or arising from a lack of education or knowledge: an ignorant mistake.
Unaware or uninformed.

It's nothing personal, but if you refuse to do even basic research about a topic and yet arrive at a steadfast conclusion, that's an ignorant decision.

It's not like were just trying to establish whether or not Bigfoot is real, we're talking about the possibility that God might exist and if he does what is your responsibility to that knowledge. I mean, let's assume were talking about Bigfoot. I say he exists- you say he doesn't. Either way, who ever is wrong doesn't really matter does it? I say God exists, you say he doesn't. Let's assume I'm wrong. I die just like you and I end up a pile of dust. Let's assume you're wrong. You die, stand before God and do your best to explain to him why he doesn't exist. smile Well, all I can say is you better do your research and have a good argument cause that's gonna be a tough case to win.
Posted: Tue, 9th Mar 2004, 9:48pm

Post 150 of 327

Arktic

Force: 9977 | Joined: 10th Nov 2003 | Posts: 2785

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 2 Pro User FXhome Movie Maker FXpreset Maker Windows User MacOS User

SuperUser

how can anyone make any kind of decision about the possibility of the existence of God with no basis for that decision
The basis would be faith.

I mean, if God does exist, surely he has the ability to convince people that he exists without them having to search for some sort of empirical evidence?

Imagine that you have a near-death experience, and you see God or whatever, and you survive. I'd bet that quite a few people would believe in God then - right? But would they be being "ignorant"? I don't think so, as they have quite good justification, right?

But what's the difference between this person, who has 'experienced' God, and the person who sees God in everything? Isn't the fantastic world we live in enough proof to convince someone that it's not all been an accident? Isn't that unshakable feeling inside that tells you you're not alone in your hour of need enough to justify your belief? There are many, many things which act as 'proof', and I think you've just missed the point about this. People can have justified faith for a number of reasons - not just 'research'.

EDIT - I've just read that back, and it sounds really pretentious. I'd just like to let you know that that's not what I mean by this. I just enjoy a good discussion smile

Cheers,
Arktic.
Posted: Tue, 9th Mar 2004, 9:57pm

Post 151 of 327

unclepain

Force: 482 | Joined: 8th Mar 2002 | Posts: 192

Gold Member

Why would someone who thinks there might be a higher power involved in the universe be content with just that knowledge? Wouldn't that person want to find out as much as possible about it? I would. Maybe you don't but I just think that's irresponsible.

"OK God. I'm pretty sure you're around, but I'm not going to do anything to actually find out about you. I'm just going to trust my instincts and I'm pretty sure I'll be OK. Bye." confused
Posted: Tue, 9th Mar 2004, 9:58pm

Post 152 of 327

elementcinema

Force: 436 | Joined: 17th Dec 2003 | Posts: 814

Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

Anonymous wrote:

That's exactly what I'm saying. If you do not gather the proper information before making a decision, it's an ignorant decision. That's the very definition of ignorance....

ig·no·rant ( P ) Pronunciation Key (gnr-nt)
adj.
Lacking education or knowledge.
Showing or arising from a lack of education or knowledge: an ignorant mistake.
Unaware or uninformed.

It's nothing personal, but if you refuse to do even basic research about a topic and yet arrive at a steadfast conclusion, that's an ignorant decision.

okay, yes thats the definition of ignorance, but as it says :uninformed or unaware then i guys you would be ignoarant too dont you think? like i said i dont know how many times is that no one is sure about all of this. so you cant be informed of anything when we dont even know if there is anything to be informed about! wink
Posted: Tue, 9th Mar 2004, 10:03pm

Post 153 of 327

Arktic

Force: 9977 | Joined: 10th Nov 2003 | Posts: 2785

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 2 Pro User FXhome Movie Maker FXpreset Maker Windows User MacOS User

SuperUser

"OK God. I'm pretty sure you're around, but I'm not going to do anything to actually find out about you. I'm just going to trust my instincts and I'm pretty sure I'll be OK. Bye."
Ah - I'd agree with you here that this view is rather irresponsible.

But it's not the same thing as you were saying before. The point at hand is wether or not you are able to make an informed decision about the existance of God without 'research' ("how can anyone make any kind of decision about the possibility of the existence of God with no basis for that decision"). I think that you can make that kind of decision based purely on faith - but I'm not saying that once you are certain that he exists that you shouldn't do anything about it. But as I say, that's a whole different kettle of fish wink

Cheers,
Arktic.
Posted: Tue, 9th Mar 2004, 10:18pm

Post 154 of 327

elementcinema

Force: 436 | Joined: 17th Dec 2003 | Posts: 814

Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

in a nutshell:

Ignorant for not having researched the subject, but also ignorant researching something that is ignorant in itself because it doesnt know for sure that god even exists.
Posted: Tue, 9th Mar 2004, 10:25pm

Post 155 of 327

Arktic

Force: 9977 | Joined: 10th Nov 2003 | Posts: 2785

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 2 Pro User FXhome Movie Maker FXpreset Maker Windows User MacOS User

SuperUser

I have to agree with EC's sentiment there.

If you're demanding proof upon which to base a belief in order that it will not be an ignorant belief, it's hard to find solid evidence for any metaphysical subject - so I don't see that researching for proof should be any justification for belief in religion.

But I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree?

Cheers,
Arktic.
Posted: Tue, 9th Mar 2004, 10:44pm

Post 156 of 327

unclepain

Force: 482 | Joined: 8th Mar 2002 | Posts: 192

Gold Member

I can agree with that. smile
Posted: Tue, 9th Mar 2004, 11:47pm

Post 157 of 327

Simon K Jones

Force: 27955 | Joined: 1st Jan 2002 | Posts: 11683

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 5 Pro User MuzzlePlug User PowerPlug User PhotoKey 3 Plug-in User FXhome Movie Maker FXpreset Maker Windows User

FXhome Team Member

Arktic wrote:

Isn't the fantastic world we live in enough proof to convince someone that it's not all been an accident?
Absolutely. I agree completely, there's definitely something fishy going on. However, I'm not sure why this implies that it's the Christian God at work. Sure, it might be - I'm not saying it isn't. However, being amazed by the universe and suspecting that there's a higher force at work doesn't get me any closer to God, or working out which religion is 'right' (or which are 'wrong').

Isn't that unshakable feeling inside that tells you you're not alone in your hour of need enough to justify your belief?
I've not encountered that one yet...I've always either been on my own or had friends/family. When I'm truly alone and need His presence, we'll see what happens. smile

People can have justified faith for a number of reasons - not just 'research'.
Isn't the main thing about Faith that you don't need reasons? That's the whole definition of Faith, surely - believing in something without requiring evidence/proof/explanation.

It's a good job the police don't carry out their work based on faith. wink

EDIT - I've just read that back, and it sounds really pretentious. I'd just like to let you know that that's not what I mean by this. I just enjoy a good discussion smile
You and me both!
Posted: Wed, 10th Mar 2004, 3:01pm

Post 158 of 327

unclepain

Force: 482 | Joined: 8th Mar 2002 | Posts: 192

Gold Member

I agree- This was a good discussion and I just want you guys to know that I don't hold any ill will toward anyone just because they have a differing opinion. I guess my plea would be that if you're serious about finding out about the details of your faith (or your lack there-of) then why wouldn't you want to fully investigate it with the resources available to you? I just think that kind of a decision is important enough to warrant some investigation. That's not something I'd care to be wrong about. Too much at stake. That's why I just don't understand the whole attitude of "I don't know, I don't want to know, and I don't care"
Posted: Wed, 10th Mar 2004, 6:48pm

Post 159 of 327

elementcinema

Force: 436 | Joined: 17th Dec 2003 | Posts: 814

Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

I agree with you unclepain, good discussion indeed. but the whole "i dont care, etc." attitude isnt involved here at all. i dont have that attitude and i know for sure that arktic doesnt have that attitude either. I have investigated to my extent and i dont find any need to find out anymore because i have made my decision (it being ignorant or not). but i still have an open mind about everything. if you said something to me that would make me think i would consider it. I just see things in a more logical way then trying to explain something with something that we arent sure of itself. for example: we dont know how we became, so we use the answer: GOD. We arent sure about our existence yet we give it an answer to something were arent sure of either. see what i mean? but anyway, im glad this discussion stayed good and clean! high five to all of you! biggrin
Posted: Wed, 10th Mar 2004, 8:11pm

Post 160 of 327

Sollthar

Force: 13360 | Joined: 30th Oct 2001 | Posts: 6094

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 2 Pro User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User MacOS User

SuperUser

Even though I wasn't involved in the discussion (but followed it), I wanted to say I agree with unclepain too in the subject of the "I don't care" people.

I too think the question of gods existance or unexistance is an important one. If he does exist or does not exist indeed makes quite a difference, to everyone of us, not just to the single individual.

Therefore I can't really go with the "each to his own" attitude many people have in this subject, because there is only ONE correct answer to this question, and it affects everyone, no matter if you want to or not, believe it or not.


I for myself, I haven't just decided to be an Atheist because I don't like to think about it. Thats a prejudice I encounter many times, that people say Atheists believe nothing. They don't believe nothing, they do believe as much as the christians or the muslims, they just believe the opposite. Actually, I've had tons of discussions with all kind of religious people, done a lot of research on the subject, historical as well as philosophical, and constructed and reflected a lot of my own thoughts about it.

I must say though that the longer I do research on the subject, the more I become certain, that god is a pure invention of men and that the bible, the tora, the corane and whatever other religious books are not more than fairytales to support basic ethic rules, but are no LESS than very good books that mostly provide an honorable view of the world. But in my opinion, "god" should not be taken literally, but just as a symbol. Because in Atheism, god did never exist, does not exist now and will never exist. Not the god of any religion. That god is no more real than Batman.
Posted: Wed, 10th Mar 2004, 9:26pm

Post 161 of 327

Simon K Jones

Force: 27955 | Joined: 1st Jan 2002 | Posts: 11683

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 5 Pro User MuzzlePlug User PowerPlug User PhotoKey 3 Plug-in User FXhome Movie Maker FXpreset Maker Windows User

FXhome Team Member

Sollthar wrote:

That god is no more real than Batman.
Waitaminute....what are you saying?
Posted: Wed, 10th Mar 2004, 9:42pm

Post 162 of 327

unclepain

Force: 482 | Joined: 8th Mar 2002 | Posts: 192

Gold Member

Sollthar,

Although you and I have arrived at different conclusions, I still respect the fact that you did take the time to really research and explore what you believe and why. I just think it's irresponsible to not even look into the possibility and ignore the issue, or just go with an "instinct". Hey, my instincts tell me that I should be God and everyone should worship me, but it doesn't really work out that way. smile I understand that Element feels that he has done the same kind of personal exploration, although from the beginning of our conversation it came off more like "I just don't feel like there's a God so therefore I proclaim he doesn't exist." That just doesn't seem like a very responsible way of making that kind of a determination.

Tarn- Have no fear. Batman is definitely real. wink
Posted: Wed, 10th Mar 2004, 9:51pm

Post 163 of 327

Simon K Jones

Force: 27955 | Joined: 1st Jan 2002 | Posts: 11683

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 5 Pro User MuzzlePlug User PowerPlug User PhotoKey 3 Plug-in User FXhome Movie Maker FXpreset Maker Windows User

FXhome Team Member

Phew.
Posted: Wed, 10th Mar 2004, 10:53pm

Post 164 of 327

elementcinema

Force: 436 | Joined: 17th Dec 2003 | Posts: 814

Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

okay. i didnt "feel" i think logically as everyone should do. and i hope they do. because when you do, you can then realized that god IS an invention of man. as i explained before: people may have created him to answer questions they could not, heaven and hell were maybe made up to keep people civilized when there wasnt law enforcement, etc. thats how i think unclepain, not "feel". the whole instinct thing is among being logical aswell. logic tells you what to do in a way. you arent going to shoot yourself in the head without a reason, its unlogical. if someone throws a punch at you, your instinct is to move out of the way. why? because its logic. pain does not feel good lol. i have never ignored the issue. i said that i have done my research, may not be as much as you but its enough in my opinion. now when i say research, i mean reading books, studying, etc. but this discussion is also a way to research on the subject and get other people's ideas and opinions. it helps to make a conclusion, and so far my conclusion has stayed the same. why? well you have contradicted yourself on the whole ignorance thing and that made me stay away from your point in some way.

but all im saying is that i dont just feel this opinion of mine. i have done the research, i have thought abuot it long and hard, and i have discussed it among lots of people throughout the years. and i can garentee you that is alot more than any of religions person out there with very far fetched beliefs! i can tell you that much! wink sorry if this comes out too hard
Posted: Wed, 10th Mar 2004, 11:25pm

Post 165 of 327

unclepain

Force: 482 | Joined: 8th Mar 2002 | Posts: 192

Gold Member

Well, I don't really see where I have contradicted myself. My point from the beginning has always been that each person should make an informed decision by gathering as much information as possible. This is basic science. I'd love to know where I deviated from that point, but regardless of this- you feel you've done enough "research" and have formulated your own opinion. That's all I'm asking anyone to do. I don't really feel we need to elaborate our points any further because that would just be redundant. I've made my decision- you've made yours. Hope it works out for you.
Posted: Thu, 11th Mar 2004, 4:32am

Post 166 of 327

Frozenpede

Force: 630 | Joined: 28th Jan 2004 | Posts: 1113

EffectsLab Lite User Windows User

Gold Member

Tarn wrote:

Absolutely. I agree completely, there's definitely something fishy going on. However, I'm not sure why this implies that it's the Christian God at work. Sure, it might be - I'm not saying it isn't. However, being amazed by the universe and suspecting that there's a higher force at work doesn't get me any closer to God, or working out which religion is 'right' (or which are 'wrong').
This is one of the key things that turned me on to Christianity. Something happened outside of "natural" occurance. Now maybe it is anyone of the other religions. However when I looked into the others (Zoroastrianism, Islam, Rastafarian, etc) they are so jammed packed with holes you wont beleive it! finding a religion that can even come away from a good debate still intact is a hard thing to do. Christianity actually held its own. Also, on a whole other note, Christianity also explains the whole thing in the middle-east very well.
Posted: Thu, 11th Mar 2004, 4:58am

Post 167 of 327

elementcinema

Force: 436 | Joined: 17th Dec 2003 | Posts: 814

Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

unclepain you contradicted yourself by doing research to not make you ignorant, but you are taking in research of something that is ignorant in itself because the research is 100%. the research is not an informed decision. it never will be. THATS how you are contradicting yourself..get it?
Posted: Thu, 11th Mar 2004, 12:35pm

Post 168 of 327

unclepain

Force: 482 | Joined: 8th Mar 2002 | Posts: 192

Gold Member

Oh sure, I understand what you're trying to say. You think I'm ignorant because I chose to study something that you think is completely imaginary to begin with. I disagree. I still don't see how that makes me contradict myself, but that's your opinion and that's fine.
Posted: Thu, 11th Mar 2004, 12:41pm

Post 169 of 327

Sollthar

Force: 13360 | Joined: 30th Oct 2001 | Posts: 6094

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 2 Pro User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User MacOS User

SuperUser

I think what he means is, no matter how much thought or study you lay into the subject, in the end, it is a matter of belief or not.

Or can you bring a scientific empiric proof for the existance of god? Cause if you can, you should go to the press! You'd be the first!
Posted: Thu, 11th Mar 2004, 1:21pm

Post 170 of 327

unclepain

Force: 482 | Joined: 8th Mar 2002 | Posts: 192

Gold Member

You are 100 percent correct. It is a matter of faith, but empirical evidence took me close enough that I felt I could make an educated decision that supported that step of faith. Your research obviously didn't give you enough evidence to make that kind of a step, so you went completely the opposite direction. But frankly, what kind of evidence would it really take to convince you? I'm afraid that even if Jesus himself came back to earth and started doing miracles again and even put out an infomercial on how to get to heaven, most people would still call him a lunatic, a heretic, and a false prophet- shoot, we might even kill him again. So, you guys are right- I cannot prove the existence of God without a shadow of a doubt, with rock hard solid evidence that no person could ever possibly doubt- BUT there was enough evidence to support the case and with this jury it was enough evidence to convict. I'll state this once again, even to the point of redundancy- My gripe is that most people will not even choose to look at the evidence and yet still make a decision. That is just not a smart way to go about things and in my opinion is an ignorant decision. This was my point from post number 1 and I never deviated from that. Obviously there may never be enough evidence to cause you guys to change your mind, but I think it was designed that way. God wanted us to have a free will to choose him or reject him based on our faith, but for me that faith had to be founded on more than just my own reasoning and "instincts".
Posted: Thu, 11th Mar 2004, 1:31pm

Post 171 of 327

Sollthar

Force: 13360 | Joined: 30th Oct 2001 | Posts: 6094

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 2 Pro User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User MacOS User

SuperUser

Yeah, and I respect that you put thought into a decision. Unfortunately, many people don't do that and I agree totally with you, that this is sad. But allthough you can put time and effort into "research", in the end, an assumption remains an assumption.


Personally, I do it the other way round. My researchs subject was and is not to "proof something right", but to "proof something wrong".

I take a construction and then see if it contradicts itself (wich is THE logical method of finding false constructions) or contradicts something else I think to know (wich gives only two possibilities: either A or B is wrong).

So this is what I do. I don't know the right answer to many important questions, but I do know some of the wrong ones. And most religious constructions I claim for being 100% wrong with no bit of doubt. Thats why I'm an Atheist, because I haven't found a religious construction yet that could stand an empirical test and remains without contradicting either itself or something else.
Posted: Thu, 11th Mar 2004, 2:35pm

Post 172 of 327

anonymous

unclepain wrote:

You are 100 percent correct. It is a matter of faith, but empirical evidence took me close enough that I felt I could make an educated decision that supported that step of faith. Your research obviously didn't give you enough evidence to make that kind of a step.
I did enough research to make an educated decision, but it went the opposite way. Its not that i didnt have enough research to make an educated decision agreeing with you. some people are easily suckered into stuff like this, and youre one of them. no offence, but when people take it as seriously as they do, i fear for them. I know people who believe the armageddon is either coming or already here. those people will soon be dissapointed. but it was their decision to believe in something so unlogical it sickens me. seriously. none of this sounds logical at all.

unclepain wrote:

I'm afraid that even if Jesus himself came back to earth and started doing miracles again and even put out an infomercial on how to get to heaven, most people would still call him a lunatic, a heretic, and a false prophet- shoot, we might even kill him again.
youre right about this, even if jesus came back, people WOULD NOT believe him, even with mircacles. and with all the research you have done you would know that jesus would obviously NOT be on an informercial if he came back to earth. correct? everybody knows that infomercials are retarded. but that isnt the point. people WOULD think he is a lunatic and they would yes probably kill him. why? because people just like having that comfort of believing in him but when it really comes down to it, they cant handle it. lots of people use religion or their beliefs as an excuse to get away from all the pain in their life. not exactly an excuse but more of an easy way out.
Posted: Thu, 11th Mar 2004, 2:46pm

Post 173 of 327

unclepain

Force: 482 | Joined: 8th Mar 2002 | Posts: 192

Gold Member

Well, you're certainly not the first intelligent person to think that, and you won't be the last either. There are some matters of faith that just won't make sense rationally. I mean, a man hanging on a cross to save all of mankind just doesn't have alot of logic behind it, but not everything in the spiritual world is subject to the physical\scientific laws that govern this world and really that's one of the big hangups for those who rely solely on rational/logical justifications.

I guess for me one of the big factors in my decision is that I'd rather have my beliefs and be wrong than to have your beliefs and be wrong.
Posted: Thu, 11th Mar 2004, 3:04pm

Post 174 of 327

Sollthar

Force: 13360 | Joined: 30th Oct 2001 | Posts: 6094

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 2 Pro User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User MacOS User

SuperUser

I guess for me one of the big factors in my decision is that I'd rather have my beliefs and be wrong than to have your beliefs and be wrong.
Wich is true.

If you're wrong, you're in the better position than if I'm wrong. If you're wrong, you just spent a part of your life praying to someone not listening and made a couple of decisions based on a wrong assumption and if you then die, you'll disappear into nowhere.

If I'm wrong on the other hand, obviously eternity in hell awaits me as a punishment I didn't believe in god.


I must say though what I have said before: If god actually exists and punishes me with hell JUST for not believing in him, it's my stubborness that tells me: I'll rather burn in hell than ever have to look into this gods face.

Fortunately though, I've met enough christians who said I wouldn't burn in hell just for that. And if Atheists are to burn in hell just for being atheists, they would want to join them there. So it's not too bad after all. smile



But anyways, I'm not a coward and have never been one. So I won't chose the solution that is least bad in case I'm wrong. I believe deeply that every decision made out of the wrong reasons is a bad decision. This is a very important point in my morals.
Posted: Thu, 11th Mar 2004, 3:12pm

Post 175 of 327

unclepain

Force: 482 | Joined: 8th Mar 2002 | Posts: 192

Gold Member

You're right- I would definitely be a coward and a fool to have my beliefs if a fear of hell was the only reason I chose to have them. Fortunately, I have found more than that to justify my decisions. Part of me would love to see your version of the after life, where everyone got to experience eternal life regardless of your beliefs, or that Hell would be populated by all my friends so it wouldn't be such a bad place. I'm afraid that's not how I see it though.

Well, this has been fun but I'm afraid this could just go on and on. Good luck with your own decisions, whatever that may be. You guys can have the last word.

... and I'm spent!
Posted: Thu, 11th Mar 2004, 3:15pm

Post 176 of 327

Sollthar

Force: 13360 | Joined: 30th Oct 2001 | Posts: 6094

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 2 Pro User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User MacOS User

SuperUser

Oh, I don't believe in an afterlife anyways. Probably thats why I'm not scared by hell. smile

Yes, has been interesting to read.


And I wish you the same with your decision.
Posted: Thu, 11th Mar 2004, 3:20pm

Post 177 of 327

anonymous

i see it this way tho..if im wrong then i will accept the fact that im wrong. I go to "hell" then so be it. To me, its a good price to pay then to be suckered into something that contradicts itself every second. religions and religious people are so hypocritical its insane. but im not going to get into that. But also if youre wrong then i would think that alot of people will be dissapointed. these people trusted god with their lives, and to have so much trust in something and then to find out it was never there could be pretty heart breaking. like a relationship for example. its like finding out your girlfriend was cheating on you.

"but not everything in the spiritual world is subject to the physical\scientific laws that govern this world and really that's one of the big hangups for those who rely solely on rational/logical justifications. "

why? is subject to physical/scientific laws? i dont quite get you here..sorry wink I am one of those people who rely solely on rational/logical justifications because its how everybody lives. There are somethings out there that arent logical but only to a certain extent. for example: A serial killer. they kill people for the soul purpose of so and so, and it doesnt seem logical. because who would want to do this to people? some religions would say he is controlled by Satan, or possessed by demon. sorry but no, that serial killer is just crazy. (i completely forgot where im going with this lol).

I guess there isnt much else to say, i need to be certain of something before putting all my trust/faith into it. you seem to want enough research done to have enough faith and trust for your decision. we will leave it at that. but i will leave you with something you should keep with you forever.

"dont always believe what you read in books" haha
it could always come back and bite you in the ass. you never know

by the way this is ElementCinema, im too lazy to login biggrin
Posted: Thu, 11th Mar 2004, 3:26pm

Post 178 of 327

Sollthar

Force: 13360 | Joined: 30th Oct 2001 | Posts: 6094

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 2 Pro User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User MacOS User

SuperUser

Btw elementcinema. Doing something "good" or "bad" has nothing to do with logic. It's a matter of ethics, and ethics are no question of logic.

So a serial killer thinks it's "good" to kill people, therefore he does it. Thats completely logical. smile
Posted: Thu, 11th Mar 2004, 3:31pm

Post 179 of 327

anonymous

im talking about it being logical to us. not to them. i know its ethics but in our general perspective, its unlogical to us.
Posted: Thu, 11th Mar 2004, 3:34pm

Post 180 of 327

Sollthar

Force: 13360 | Joined: 30th Oct 2001 | Posts: 6094

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 2 Pro User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User MacOS User

SuperUser

You confuse ethics and logic... Logic has no point of view. Logic is always the same.

Ethics have a point of view, cause thats something entirely different with every person.
Posted: Thu, 11th Mar 2004, 4:58pm

Post 181 of 327

anonymous

oh..sorry man, i gotcha smile
Posted: Thu, 11th Mar 2004, 9:16pm

Post 182 of 327

Pooky

Force: 4834 | Joined: 8th Jul 2003 | Posts: 5913

EffectsLab Lite User Windows User MacOS User FXhome Movie Maker

Gold Member

Alright, first thing, Hell is not some bad thing that lasts a few minutes. It's pretty much all of the bad things (physical and mental, imaginable or unimaginable) put into one, everlasting stream. Heaven is the opposite.

Secondly, Canada is mostly Catholic, (now I apologise if this next bit hurts anyone's feelings or so, but I have to say it) and Catholics pretty much take the bible exactly as it is, with of course, a few made-up things (I don't remember the pope being in the bible?). For example, if the bible says god created Adam and Eve, then that's what happened. What I believe, however, is that the old testament is more of a story to teach lessons about christianity. However I believe the New Testament is real.

If when you hear the word "Christian" the first thing you see is a monk, or some religious maniac running around in the streets yelling halleluya, you're not really gettign the right picture. Take me for example, I am Christian, and even though it is a big part of my life, I don't kneel down 3 tiems per day and pray, etc. etc. Yes, I do pray, but not out loud, and not at fixed hours, and I don't always say the same thing.

You say people will be disappointed if there is no god.... but if there is no god, then they will be dead, thus meaning they won't be able to be disappointed. However if there is a god and YOU end up being wrong, well THEN you'll be able to be disappointed while you simmer in Hell.

And lastly, why does everyone want to stay away from Christianity? It is a chance to go to heaven instead of hell, yet you try as much as you can to prove it wrong. Why don't you simply take that chance and be done with it?
Posted: Thu, 11th Mar 2004, 9:50pm

Post 183 of 327

Sollthar

Force: 13360 | Joined: 30th Oct 2001 | Posts: 6094

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 2 Pro User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User MacOS User

SuperUser

Probably you won't understand the answer, but here it goes:


If I'm right and neither a god nor heaven nor hell exists, I'll never know. Because when I die, there will just be nothing.

If I'm wrong, I'll end up in hell and will know I was wrong - according to what you and unclepain believe.


So why do I take the risk? I could stop trying to prove christianity being wrong and take my chances with it, cause if it's not wrong after all, I'll end up in heaven and not burn in hell.

I can tell you, because that would be the most weak, cowardly, unhonorable and wrongest decision to make - in my opinion.
My worldview is, that I want "truth", and I am willing to pay all the consequences if what I find as truth is not the easiest solution for me. And only a proof of the opposite will make me change my opinion. Not fear. I am not to scare into belief. God can't scare me with threatening me with hell.

Thats the reason why I don't take the chance, because I am sure it is wrong. And I take the risk in well awareness of what it is.

I'd rather burn in hell than being a traitor to my own worldview.
Posted: Thu, 11th Mar 2004, 9:56pm

Post 184 of 327

Pooky

Force: 4834 | Joined: 8th Jul 2003 | Posts: 5913

EffectsLab Lite User Windows User MacOS User FXhome Movie Maker

Gold Member

wrongest... is that a word? razz

Anyway, I understand your view and I respect it, I just don't agree with it (how many time have you hear THAT one before? biggrin )

Why I don't agree is, you're risking everything to prove you are right. And even if you are right, you gain nothing.
Posted: Thu, 11th Mar 2004, 10:03pm

Post 185 of 327

Sollthar

Force: 13360 | Joined: 30th Oct 2001 | Posts: 6094

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 2 Pro User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User MacOS User

SuperUser

You're right. I risk everything...

But you're wrong when saying I gain nothing. I gain truth. And nothing is worth more. smile




And I'm swiss, how should I know if wrongest is a word? biggrin
Posted: Thu, 11th Mar 2004, 10:09pm

Post 186 of 327

Pooky

Force: 4834 | Joined: 8th Jul 2003 | Posts: 5913

EffectsLab Lite User Windows User MacOS User FXhome Movie Maker

Gold Member

You seem to like being right biggrin
Posted: Thu, 11th Mar 2004, 10:16pm

Post 187 of 327

Gibs

Force: 1663 | Joined: 21st May 2002 | Posts: 1611

CompositeLab Pro User FXhome Movie Maker FXpreset Maker MacOS User

Gold Member

pooky, you're intentions are noble, and I certainly understand where you are coming from, but I have to disagree with you a bit. Say that Sollthar, or any other atheist, decided to do what you say. Believing in God isn't just a "oh, sure, I'll believe he exists". Being a Christian means devoting your whole life to God. That would entail a full turn around of beliefs, which is not something to be taken lightly in any circumstance. Besides that, we are not to live in fear of God in order to make it into heaven.

And being an atheist doesn't make you a bad person. An atheist is better than someone who claims to be a Christian, but doesn't live for God. But the difference between Christians and atheists is not that one believes in a God and the other doesn't. It's that one dedicates their life to God, and the other denies the existence of one.
Posted: Thu, 11th Mar 2004, 10:31pm

Post 188 of 327

Brettsta

Force: 3385 | Joined: 15th Nov 2003 | Posts: 2114

VisionLab User FXpreset Maker MacOS User

Gold Member

Religion doesnt make you a good or bad person. Its, well, the person themself that does.
Posted: Thu, 11th Mar 2004, 10:41pm

Post 189 of 327

Pooky

Force: 4834 | Joined: 8th Jul 2003 | Posts: 5913

EffectsLab Lite User Windows User MacOS User FXhome Movie Maker

Gold Member

Lloyd66: Hrmm, now that I reread what I said, I see how you could have gotten it that way. I agree with what you said though, and it's what I believe as well.
Posted: Fri, 12th Mar 2004, 8:52pm

Post 190 of 327

Narluin Arthalion

Force: 0 | Joined: 20th Feb 2004 | Posts: 42

Member

A few points.

Even "good" people go to Hell. Everyone is born with a sinful nature. Just because you don't smoke, drink, take drugs, steal, lie or all that stuff doesn't mean anything in the final judgement.

And also believing that God exists doesn't save you. There is a difference between knowing about someone and knowing someone. You must accept Christ as your Lord and Savior and acknowlidge that He is perfect and you are not.

True Christians don't need to seek truth because they already found it.

And one more thing. "The fear of God is the beggining of wisdom".
However if God is for us no one can be against us. If you are truely saved then you have nothing to fear on this earth.

That is the last of what I am going to say in this discusion. Belief or disbelief rests with you.
Posted: Fri, 12th Mar 2004, 10:38pm

Post 191 of 327

Sollthar

Force: 13360 | Joined: 30th Oct 2001 | Posts: 6094

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 2 Pro User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User MacOS User

SuperUser

True Christians don't need to seek truth because they already found it.
Heh, I better not comment on that. smile



Interesting... very interesting.
Posted: Fri, 12th Mar 2004, 11:31pm

Post 192 of 327

elementcinema

Force: 436 | Joined: 17th Dec 2003 | Posts: 814

Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

ill comment on that twisted

ok after all of you saying what you believe there is something that still bothers me. for all you christians out there, the discussion that unclepain and i were having was about whether or not god/etc. exists. now i have heard good points from you all, but not on topic.


"True Christians don't need to seek truth because they already found it. "

found the truth? how? are you sure? how could you possible know? hmm..dont be so sure of yourself.

"If you are truely saved then you have nothing to fear on this earth. "
truly saved from what? and fear what? hell?

the only way to find out is to die. but then what can it prove? its not like you can let all your buddies know whether or not so and so exists. it doesnt work that way. all people that believe in god are just believing in something that have no idea about. i can sit here and swear up and down that god doesnt exist based on logic. but you guys swear up and down that he does exist because of a book. sure there is a bible, but it could just be some fairy tales from back when it was written. ill go and write something right now and explain how my life was and lie straight through my teeth but people in the future who read wont know whether or not its true. they will just believe. they will have their own opinions. it just sickens me that so many people believe so in a thing that no one is certain of at all. there is more evidence that aliens exist than god. and that is a fact. but yet there are still some people who dont believe in aliens. there is only so much you can take in regarding god/etc. the fact that people believe that one superior being created everything is VERY far fetched. evolution is starting to make more and more sense as time goes on. and sooner or later alot of people will be dissapointed because their beliefs of god will be proven WRONG. its only a matter of time. but i know that there are people out there who are saying the same thing but saying that in time armageddon will come and everyone will know the truth.

its hard to get a point across over the internet, you can only type so much and just give up because i just dont really care what you people believe anymore. everyone can believe what they want. but why stress yourself over whether or not god will forgive you and let you go to heaven? why worry about hell? have fun with what you have now. if there is a hell then make up for it now by doing what YOU want to do and not GOD wants you to do. god wants you to be happy right? well then do what makes you happy, even if it does mean sinful nature.
Posted: Sat, 13th Mar 2004, 12:18am

Post 193 of 327

Pooky

Force: 4834 | Joined: 8th Jul 2003 | Posts: 5913

EffectsLab Lite User Windows User MacOS User FXhome Movie Maker

Gold Member

Ok, you are saved from hell, and don't have to fear the devil etc.

Secondly, you don't have to be perfect to go to heaven, you can't be.

Thirdly, more proof of the existence of Aliens than that of god?? Heh, all we have is witnesses... and we also have witnesses that saw life after death (a lot of people have, around 40% of Americans, I believe). These people have been oficially dead for an hour or more, yet brought back to life afterwards (healthcare sure has evolved wink ) and some have seen Hell, and some, what they describe as heaven. People have come back terrified (back from hell, they say) and some were particularly happy (from heaven, they say). These witnesses (40% of Americans, I remind you) are just as believable as Alien witnesses.
Posted: Sat, 13th Mar 2004, 12:36am

Post 194 of 327

Arktic

Force: 9977 | Joined: 10th Nov 2003 | Posts: 2785

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 2 Pro User FXhome Movie Maker FXpreset Maker Windows User MacOS User

SuperUser

EC - you say "It sickens me that so many believe in something that isn't certain".

I suppose you believe in gravity, right? But can we *really* be certain that gravity is going to carry on working in the way it has so far? No - there's nothing to suggest that just because it has in the past that it will do in the future : we really can't be certain about much.

The only thing that you can ever be certain of is that "there is thought" and that's it. Nothing else - as everything you know comes through the senses, which have decieved you in the past - you must have seen something and mistaken it for something else : thus we can conclude that the senses aren't 100% reliable, and so we can doubt that the 'sensedata' we recieve from our senses...

Quack smile

Arktic.
Posted: Sat, 13th Mar 2004, 12:38am

Post 195 of 327

Gibs

Force: 1663 | Joined: 21st May 2002 | Posts: 1611

CompositeLab Pro User FXhome Movie Maker FXpreset Maker MacOS User

Gold Member

elementcinema wrote:

it just sickens me that so many people believe so in a thing that no one is certain of at all.
Well then you must really sicken yourself. When it comes down to solid proof in the form most people will accept it, no one is certain of anything. There is nothing that absolutely proves the existence of God, nor is there anything that disproves Him.

You are an atheist because you believe that being one is logical. And that's fine. But you make it sound like all Christians ignore logic. I sure don't. I have faith, yes, as there is no way to "prove" God exists, but I don't have blind faith. In everything I do, I can see how there is an influence in my life which I believe to be God. It's hard to describe, but know that I don't just believe in God because my parents said he exists. It's much deeper than that.
Posted: Sat, 13th Mar 2004, 12:40am

Post 196 of 327

elementcinema

Force: 436 | Joined: 17th Dec 2003 | Posts: 814

Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

you cant compare gravity to god. im talking about believing in gods existence in general. we know for a fact that gravity exists. we arent certain whether or not it will carry on its mission but we know it is right now and that its really there. but for god we dont know for sure. we have no proof whether or not HE is doing his job or if he will carry on his mission if there is one..
Posted: Sat, 13th Mar 2004, 12:42am

Post 197 of 327

Arktic

Force: 9977 | Joined: 10th Nov 2003 | Posts: 2785

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 2 Pro User FXhome Movie Maker FXpreset Maker Windows User MacOS User

SuperUser

How can we 'prove' gravity?

Just because it's been there in the past, what's to say that it will be there in the future? And how do you know that your senses haven't just decieved you into thinking that gravity exists? You can't know for *certain* smile

Arktic.
Posted: Sat, 13th Mar 2004, 3:58am

Post 198 of 327

elementcinema

Force: 436 | Joined: 17th Dec 2003 | Posts: 814

Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

THE PERFECTION-vs.-CREATION ARGUMENT
1.) If God exists, then he is perfect..
2.) If God exists, then he is the creator of the universe.
3.) A perfect being can have no needs or wants.
4.) If any being created the universe, then he must have had some need or want.
5.) Therefore, it is impossible for a perfect being to be the creator of the universe (from 3 and 4).
6.) Hence, it is impossible for God to exist

ON GOD'S JUSTICE AND MERCY
1.) If God exists, then he is an all-just judge.
2.) If God exists, then he is an all-merciful judge.
3.) An all-just judge treats every offender with exactly the severity that he/she deserves.
4.) An all-merciful judge treats every offender with less severity than he/she deserves.
5.) It is impossible to treat an offender both with exactly the severity that he/she deserves and also with less severity than he/she deserves.
6.) Hence, it is impossible for an all-just judge to be an all-merciful judge (from 3-5).
7.) Therefore, it is impossible for God to exist

ON GOD'S IMMUTABILITY - Unchangingness
1.) If God exists, then he is immutable.
2.) If God exists, then he is the creator of the universe.
3.) An immutable being cannot at one time have an intention and then at a later time not have that intention.
4.) For any being to create anything, prior to the creation he must have had the intention to create it, but at a later time, after the creation, no longer have the intention to create it.
5.) Thus, it is impossible for an immutable being to have created anything (from 3 and 4).
6.) Therefore, it is impossible for God to exist

PERFECTION/CREATION INCOHERENCE ARGUMENT
1.) God, by definition, is a perfect being.
2.) God, by definition, deliberately created the universe.
3.) So, if God were to exist, then he would be a perfect being who deliberately created something.
4.) To be perfect, one cannot have any needs or wants.
5.) To deliberately create something, one must have at least one need or want.
6.) Thus, it is impossible for a perfect being to deliberately create anything.
7.) Therefore, God cannot exist
Posted: Sat, 13th Mar 2004, 4:04am

Post 199 of 327

elementcinema

Force: 436 | Joined: 17th Dec 2003 | Posts: 814

Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

ARGUMENT FROM NON-BELIEF
1.) If the Christian God exists, he wants ALL humans to know he exists.
2.) If the Christian God exists, he knows what evidences are sufficient for ALL to know that he exists.
3.) Not ALL people believe in God.
4.) God's evidences, thus far, are insufficient for ALL to believe.
5.) God either wants non-christians to exist or there is no Christian God. (from 2,3 and 4) - IG
(If God wants atheists to exist... why all the threats of Hell and damnation in Christian theology?)

ON HELL
1.) God is all-knowing.
2.) Before I was born God knew I wouldn’t believe in him.
3.) I was born to go to Hell.

Sure you may say I have a choice, but I think I`ve proven already that I really don`t. I`m simply fulfilling the will of God by being an atheist aren`t I? If I`m not, I shouldn`t exist: For God would have known that before I was created that I wouldn`t believe in him.)
Posted: Sat, 13th Mar 2004, 4:14am

Post 200 of 327

Gibs

Force: 1663 | Joined: 21st May 2002 | Posts: 1611

CompositeLab Pro User FXhome Movie Maker FXpreset Maker MacOS User

Gold Member

Hmm. Those points are logical, as far as humans would see it, but not as how God does. God IS merciful. He offers grace to everyone, but you have to accept this grace by repenting of sins and being baptized. Then, you look to Him as someone who has never messed up. So therefore, God is merciful, but only to those who accept the mercy.

I have no idea what you mean to say that being perfect means you have no needs or wants. No needs, maybe, but don't include wants in that argument.

Basically, God's plan for the world was for everything to be perfect. But he didn't want us to be robots, he wanted us to be in control of our actions. When sin entered the world, though, that lead to things that weren't part of his plan. God is not immutable. He changed, but only once. From the old covenant with the Jews, his chosen people, to after Jesus dying on the cross, brought about a change in the way He judges us. But that's all He ever changed.

Is this the only logic that you used to disprove God and be an atheist? Because simple logic cannot prove or disprove something as complex as an omnipotent being.

Page 1 of 2: 1, 2 | Next