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The power of the GOP compells me!

Posted: Tue, 20th Jul 2004, 7:02pm

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sfbmovieco

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I think it's funny how Kerry talks about 'his plan to change America.' He sure talks about it a lot but he never really says what his plan is...

http://www.drudgereport.com/kerryv.htm

Maybe it's to not do his job that often...Who knows...

But what I do know is that I think it's silly that even some of the Democrats in the country are admitting Kerry has little to no visibility from the voters...Meaning that the voters don't know who the hell this guy is, and at the convention they are going to have to introduce this guy to the voters...

I think this makes it apparent that Kerry is just a vessel for the Democratic spite and hatred for our current president, and that you could stick a dead body up there on the ticket of the DNC and the dems would still vote for it because they have such rage and unwavering hatred for a man who is just doing his job...Thoughts? Opinions? Anything is wanted. Just looking to bounce ideas off of each other.
Posted: Tue, 20th Jul 2004, 8:52pm

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BackOfTheHearse

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Just looking to bounce ideas off of each other.
Chances are that this will end in bouncing Net-fists at each other.

Personally, I have no idea who I am going to vote for. Kerry's a doofus and can't talk straight; Bush is war-happy and a bigoted religious nut; And Nader... Oh never mind. Nader shouldn't even be considered for bagging your groceries, let alone running the country.

Canada's looking pretty good to me right now biggrin
Posted: Tue, 20th Jul 2004, 9:06pm

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Evman

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anarchy!
Posted: Tue, 20th Jul 2004, 9:26pm

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Waser

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nitro, you should vote for Walt Brown. Sure, he'll never get elected, but he's got some good ideas, most of which seem to be too good to be true/plausable

Personally, I don't like Kerry that much (I like edwards though), but I want to support the person who has the best chance of de-throning our president. I was always a Dean supporter
Posted: Tue, 20th Jul 2004, 10:00pm

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sfbmovieco

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Waser wrote:



but I want to support the person who has the best chance of de-throning our president.
Which is my point exactly.
Posted: Tue, 20th Jul 2004, 10:06pm

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Mr Pencil

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The way I see it, the American Empire is screwed no matter who's in office. Both major canidates suck, and Nader...well, he just sucks even more. As Evman and I discuss, the best vote for America is John McCain for president, and Rudy Guliani (spelling?) somewhere in McCain's cabnet, like Vice-Pres. Unfortunately, Bush won't give up the throne, and why should he? But if i could, I'd vote for McCain. McCain is a great guy and a smart man. I just hope he doesn't die or get old too soon so he can run next election. Hey! by then I think I'll be able to vote, bitches! I mean, fellow aquantences....

And for all you out there thinking, "Hey! Maybe Bush will get rid of Chaney, and put in McCain!" Well, if you listen to the professionals, they say that Bush won't get rid of Chaney. Just to let you know, it's unlikely. It will like ruin his chances or something- I dunno. But I'm just very sad because everyone makes fun of Chaney (well, I do too- he's just so close to death it's funny!) and no one will make fun of McCain.

And when I'm old enough, I'm moving to Britain so I don't have to deal with American Democracy and it's silly ways anymore. Well, maybe. I'm not liberal, I just get annoyed with political parties. And I love to see people who look like the guy below. They're hi-larious.
Posted: Tue, 20th Jul 2004, 10:47pm

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sfbmovieco

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Mister Pencil wrote:





And when I'm old enough, I'm moving to Britain so I don't have to deal with American Democracy and it's silly ways anymore.
Yeah, stupid democracy. Who wants free will and the right to vote anyways.

Can you say HILE, HILE, HILE? Because that's your alternative...
Posted: Tue, 20th Jul 2004, 10:59pm

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Evman

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yeah, you sounded very liberal there lou... eek
Posted: Tue, 20th Jul 2004, 11:24pm

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Mr Pencil

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sfbmovieco wrote:


Yeah, stupid democracy. Who wants free will and the right to vote anyways.

Can you say HILE, HILE, HILE? Because that's your alternative...
Hey, hey, I didn't mean that. I enjoy, love, and cherish my freedoms, I'm just annoyed how this country is heading in the direction of lunacy. Well, it is and has been destined for that, but that's another story.
And about the nazi thing. Umm... What the F*ck? Britain is America's strongest, best, and favorite ally (mainly becuase they do whatever we say; sorry guys). I'm very aware that Britain is a Parliament and not a Facist country. Or at least the last time I checked it wasn't...is it?
Posted: Tue, 20th Jul 2004, 11:28pm

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sfbmovieco

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How is the country headed for lunacy? I beat people in the 1820's said the same thing. (Which is probably why we had a spiritual revolution during that time.) In any event, I did not mean the British were Natzi's...I simply meant that people who hate freedom and the democratic way of life are of no use to people who like freedom and live in a society controlled by fairness and democracy...Hence, fascism...

Your statement is said as a fact, but is merely just an opinion...Kind of funny how you impose it as a fact.
Posted: Tue, 20th Jul 2004, 11:34pm

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Ryan

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Edwards was talking about how Kerry is going to make Heath Insurance cheaper. Isn't he going to get rid of the tax cuts though?
Posted: Tue, 20th Jul 2004, 11:35pm

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stqagehanduk

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It's a little tricky to credit the political opinion of someone who can correctly spell neither "Nazi" nor "Heil".

Bush is Evil Incarnate, and I use the word Evil with deliberate care.
Posted: Tue, 20th Jul 2004, 11:37pm

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Evman

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Ryan wrote:

Edwards was talking about how Kerry is going to make Heath Insurance cheaper. Isn't he going to get rid of the tax cuts though?
Is he gonna say "Hes going to make health insurance more expensive!"???
Posted: Tue, 20th Jul 2004, 11:44pm

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Mr Pencil

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sfbmovieco wrote:

How is the country headed for lunacy?
It's a theory that's hard to explain.

sfbmovieco wrote:

I did not mean the British were Natzi's...I simply meant that people who hate freedom and the democratic way of life are of no use to people who like freedom and live in a society controlled by fairness and democracy...Hence, fascism...
I know about the people who hate freedom. They're called liberals. I am a very patriotic person if you get to know me, and I love this country. I'm just saying that I'd rather be in a different place.

Yes, and no offence, but if you are going to use such accusations, please brush up on your dictionary first, no offence.
Posted: Tue, 20th Jul 2004, 11:57pm

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stqagehanduk

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Fascism

noun {U}

a political system based on a very powerful leader, state control and
extreme pride in country and race, and in which political opposition is
not allowed


Now, let's see ... Improperly elected leader (courtesy of Floridas vote-rigging) ... Patriot Act ... What country does that sound like?


liberal (POLITICS)

adjective

(of a political party or a country) believing in or allowing more
personal freedom and a development towards a fairer sharing
of wealth and power within society


The bastards!
Posted: Wed, 21st Jul 2004, 12:08am

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BackOfTheHearse

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I want everyone to keep watch as we head towards elections. I myself am not certain that anything would happen, but I can definitely say that I would not be caught off guard if we have any "October Surprises". These are things that the Bush administration may have up their sleeves to either cause a great slant in favor of the Bush Re-Election Campaign, or find some way of just stopping Kerry.

Such things include:

-- Osama Bin Ladin is captured or killed.
-- Some previously unknown scandal destroys Kerry's campaign.
-- Some threat of terror that causes elections to be indefinitely "postponed".
-- Some nation is shown to be a "threat to the US and to Freedom itself" and we go to war.
-- You name it.

I am not really a conspiracy theorist here, but the Bush Administration has shown me that they really shouldn't be trusted.

Check out http://www.unknownnews.net/octobersurprise.html
Posted: Wed, 21st Jul 2004, 12:15am

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stqagehanduk

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I'll say it again - Tony Blair is a power-hungry toady but I will accept that he has some principle even if his judgement appears to be on extended vacantion but Bush is out and out Evil.


evil

noun {C or U}

something that is very bad and harmful:



He's a Liar who's manipulated an entire nation for personal gain and, frankly, a mass murderer.
Posted: Wed, 21st Jul 2004, 12:25am

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Evman

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stqagehanduk wrote:




liberal (POLITICS)

adjective

(of a political party or a country) believing in or allowing more
personal freedom and a development towards a fairer sharing
of wealth and power within society


The bastards!
What personal freedom? All liberals want is to strengthen to the government to the point of near total control over everyone in the country.

I don't like that. Conservatives are more for PERSONAL freedom, dude. We believe that power should be local, not national, thus giving the PEOPLE more say in what goes on.
Posted: Wed, 21st Jul 2004, 12:30am

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Evman

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stqagehanduk wrote:


He's a Liar who's manipulated an entire nation for personal gain and, frankly, a mass murderer.
While im not so into Bush, this is the perfect example of why parties are bad. Democrats hate Bush. Republicans hate Kerry. I hate everyone.
Posted: Wed, 21st Jul 2004, 12:48am

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Simon K Jones

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A couple of points...

• Very, very odd that some people in the US don't know who Kerry is. Here in the UK we know who he is, so people in your own country not knowing who he is just seems utterly bizarre and malinformed.

• Evman/Mr Pencil - you seem to have got your terms muddled up. Liberal tends to mean a government that encourages freedoms and a lack of governmental control over things.

Of course, these days 'liberal' tends to mean 'foamy' - ie, someone who is so irrationally focused upon their own purpose that they refuse to see reason and prefer to just spout their own rhetoric whilst foaming at the mouth. Same goes for their diametrically opposed right wingers, who are basically the same, but the other side of the coin.

The further left or right wing (ie foamy; ie extremist) you get, the further you get from the truth. That's the way it goes, folks.
Posted: Wed, 21st Jul 2004, 12:56am

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Binx

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nitroviper007 wrote:

I want everyone to keep watch as we head towards elections. I myself am not certain that anything would happen, but I can definitely say that I would not be caught off guard if we have any "October Surprises". These are things that the Bush administration may have up their sleeves to either cause a great slant in favor of the Bush Re-Election Campaign, or find some way of just stopping Kerry.
Isn't that what every canidate does?
Posted: Wed, 21st Jul 2004, 1:00am

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BackOfTheHearse

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Every candidate had propaganda and methods of persuasion. But Bush and his people are sneaky and take bigger steps that play with the country like a kid's rubber ball.
Posted: Wed, 21st Jul 2004, 1:01am

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Mantra

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I have to agree with Tarn. Anyone remotely following the news in England, and I imagine many more countries beside, will know who John Kerry is, so the fact that some people in the US don't know one of their own candidates strikes me as odd. Voter apathy maybe..

Maybe now Arnold has started on the 'Girly Men' quips the political sound bites will be more interesting, especially as the election approaches smile
Posted: Wed, 21st Jul 2004, 1:08am

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Evman

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who doesn't know who kerry is?
Posted: Wed, 21st Jul 2004, 2:32am

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sidewinder

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Don't give any of that florida vote rigging BS. Brush up on your consitutional law, and take another look. It was Al Gore who actually pursued illegal means of getting more votes in Florida.

I'm not gonna go to deep, because it's up to you to inform yourself.

But...

The Florida legislature had laws set up in the state consitution governing what should be done when results end up like this. Close elections are nothing new, so there is already a set process to follow. The Florida supreme court, which is more liberal than conservative, ruled in direct contradiction to the state constitution, saying that the vote count could extend past the date it was supposed to end, as defined by the state constitution.

The U.S. supreme court then overturned the Florida court, because it was an obvious violation of the state constitution. The purpose of the judiciary branch, in the U.S., in regard to supreme courts, is to make sure that actions taken by the government are constitutional. In this case, the US court did its job. The state court didn't.

And besides, the statewide recount conducted by media organizations like the New York Times, which is very left-leaning, found that Bush did in fact clearly win the state.

If you have any conspiracy theories you want to delve into, go ahead, but any logical and cool-headed approach to the Florida election will always produce the same answer: Bush won the state fair and square.

And secondly, I don't really want to hear "Bush is an evil liar" either. We already went in to this before, but I think it'll be fun to bring it up again. Give me a quote. Give me a quote of Bush lying. If he's as evil as you say, it should be easy.


Oh, and speaking of lying, remember that Nigerian yellowcake thing?

http://slate.msn.com/id/2103795/

I don't know how it'll develop, but it'll be most interesting to watch. Maybe the other side will find their feet in their collective mouths. Of course, it seems like that never happens.



And to wrap it all up, a recent quote from our ex-prez:

Bill Clinton wrote:

Democrats like to ridicule him, a lot of them, just like the Republicans like to ridicule me. But my experience in life is that almost nobody gets where they are by accident. It's a great mistake to underestimate him. I think he's a very good politician. He has a great sense of how to relate to people."

Last edited Wed, 21st Jul 2004, 2:33am; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Wed, 21st Jul 2004, 2:32am

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Mr Pencil

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Evman- Yes, exactly, who doesn't know John Kerry is the more important question. I'm pretty sure that every US citizen who has their mind on President Bush (which is pretty much everyone consitering the recent and always outlash of Bush-hating peoples i.e. Mike Moore and every Liberal Democrat) knows who John Kerry is. I guess the only way to tell who doesn't know John Kerry is to get Jay Leno and have him Jaywalk all over this country. But I guess it's a good thing that people in other nations also know who John Kerry is so they can wish they could vote against Bush.

It's just a shame (I guess) becuase most Amercians wouldn't know who Tony Blair is even though he's been in cahoots with Bush for the longest time. Even I know who he is, but I'm not sure why people hate him. Well, then again, the British people hate David Blaine too.
Posted: Wed, 21st Jul 2004, 2:52am

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sfbmovieco

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Nitro, I think you missed my point.

My point is that the Bush campaign won't have to even try to dethrone Kerry because Kerry is losing the election on his own. Think of all the Iraq scandals and the way the war is supposidly leaning in the media. Think of the help against Bush in new books coming out, documentary movies, AND the historical poll boost that a candidate normally recieves when naming his veep. However, Kerry is still in the range of error in the polls, when historially we've had competitors to the president up 15 points in mid July...All Bush has to do is sit back and watch Kerry mess himself up...

Sidewinder is the fucking MAN!
Posted: Wed, 21st Jul 2004, 2:56am

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Slick

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Over the ages the United States has been the place to go, right now its best to get out while you still can. Right now its looking like the US is falling and well its the cycle of nations biggrin it doesnt look to good.

Hopefully when Im on my own I can find a job in the UK it seems nice there.
Posted: Wed, 21st Jul 2004, 2:57am

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MechaForce

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sfbmovieco wrote:

I did not mean the British were Natzi's...I simply meant that people who hate freedom and the democratic way of life are of no use to people who like freedom
You tool. You're spitting out propaganda.

Newsflash: People who don't live in America and don't totally agree with Bush don't hate freedom. (Don't agrue with me on this.)

:Pulls out dictionary:

Conservative: Traditional or restrained, favoring traditional views and values; tending to oppose change.

Liberal: Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry. Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.

I blame the liberal media.

FREEDOM LOL IT RULZ
Posted: Wed, 21st Jul 2004, 3:03am

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er-no

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Nobody is free.
Posted: Wed, 21st Jul 2004, 3:06am

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Gibs

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I am free.
Posted: Wed, 21st Jul 2004, 3:14am

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sidewinder

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I see now that we are all in fact turning to the dictionary for guidance...

While we're at it...

Libertarian:

1. One who advocates maximizing individual rights and minimizing the role of the state.
2. One who believes in free will.

Now, I also looked up liberal in the thesaurus...

...not literal, not strict, permissive, pink, radical, rational,...


Pink? Isn't that a lighter color of RED? razz




I really hope you guys get the reference. My humor has ended up being taken literally before. I can just see someone... "Well actually, pink is more of a liight purple than a light red."
Posted: Wed, 21st Jul 2004, 3:16am

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er-no

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___________________

free·dom (n.)

1. The condition of being free of restraints.

___________________

Laws are restraints.
We are not free.

(stirs it up)
Posted: Wed, 21st Jul 2004, 3:18am

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Gibs

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Oh, I wasn't speaking of physical freedom. But I highly doubt we want another religious/spiritual debate, so I'll go no further. smile
Posted: Wed, 21st Jul 2004, 3:23am

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cantaclaro

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Now here is my Bush/Powell 2004 Debate.

Cheney is a liability to Bush. He is a very shady character that is doing nothing but bringing more attention to the corruption in the government. He and Rumsfeld are like the "Devil/Devil" on Bush's shoulder whispering their agenda into his ears, and it is really starting to take a toll on the way that Bush is viewed by the American people. Switching Cheney with Powell (the level headed Secretary of State that has his ear to what Americans really want) would take away any bit of corruption that exists in the Bush White House. I think that Bush is a good man, a very good man and left to his own devises I think that he could create a Reagan-esque America but with all of these greedy shady OLD WHITEMEN whispering in his ears it is a little hard to peer through that goofy exterior and see his good Christian Heart of Gold, and intelligent plan for America.

The John's plan for Ameritainia

If Kerry and John "Slip and Fall" Edwards win, America is finished. We will become a secular nation of heathens, drugs, sex, and violence (because guns will be outlawed, so only outlaws will have them). Imagine Hillary Clinton becoming the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, making laws out of thin air, and wiping her proverbial butt with the Constitution. Judeo-Christian values, wait a second aren't those the things that Chief Justice Clinton outlawed and deemed UnConstitutional? Adam and Steve will have more rights than Adam and Eve. The population of the US will become as brain-dead as the Opium Smoking Chinese in the 18th Century, the Second Law of Thermodynamics will take over and nothing will be created. "The Morning After Pill" will be handed out in high schools across the country, and fornication will become a National Past Time, as if it already isn't. AIDS the worlds most preventable disease will run rampant killing all fornicators in its wake. Babies born with the disease...oh wait these leftist scum don't believe in having children...they believe in ripping, burning, and chopping them out in the 3rd trimester and tearing off their screaming heads in order to use their stem cells and other body parts to create "Medicines" and other cannibalistic products. Criminals will no longer be killed for raping 15 little boys and going on mass killing sprees they will just be throw in GenPop with the candy bar thieves and white-collar criminals for a few years wasting taxpayers some $30,000/year/person while they rot away in jail providing nothing to society. Clinton will also take away the one of the most fundamental rights that are accorded to all Americans, the Right to Bear Arms, thus guaranteeing yourself no protection from the scum of the Earth. Wow this is the kind of place that I want to live in, a Commie Nation that would make Stalin, Marx, and Mao Proud...God Bless America...Oh wait....um...Marx=Secular God...so therefore...um...Marx Bless America?

Canta unsure
Posted: Wed, 21st Jul 2004, 4:10am

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Evman

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This is interesting, regardless of political
> inclinations...
>
> Subject: History 2004
>
> At about the time our original 13 states adopted
> their
> new constitution in the year 1787 Alexander Tyler (a
> Scottish history professor at The University of
> Edinburgh) had this to say about "The Fall of The
> Athenian Republic" some 2,000 years prior. "A
> democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply
> cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A
> democracy will continue to exist up until the time
> that voters discover that they can vote themselves
> generous gifts from the public treasury. From that
> moment on the majority always votes for the
> candidates
> who promise the most benefits from the public
> treasury with the result that every democracy will
> finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy which is
> always followed by a dictatorship."
>
> "The average age of the worlds greatest
> civilizations
> from the beginning of history has been about 200
> years. During those 200 years these
> nations always progressed through the following
> sequence:
>
> From bondage to spiritual faith;
> From spiritual faith to great courage;
> From courage to liberty;
> From liberty to abundance;
> From abundance to complacency;
> From complacency to apathy;
> From apathy to dependence;
> From dependence back into bondage."
>
> Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University School
> of
> Law, St. Paul, Minnesota, points out some
> interesting
> facts concerning the last Presidential election:
>
> Population of counties won by:
> Gore=127 million
> Bush=143 million
> Square miles of land won by:
> Gore=580,000
> Bush=22,427,000
>
> States won by:
> Gore=19;
> Bush=29
>
> Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won
> by
> :
> Gore=13.2
> Bush=2.1
>
> Professor Olson adds: "In aggregate the map of the
> territory Bush won was mostly the land owned by the
> tax-paying citizens of this great country. Gore's
> territory encompassed those citizens living in
> government-owned tenements and living off government
> welfare..."
>
> Olson believes the U.S. is now somewhere between the
> "apathy" and
> complacency" phase of Professor Tyler's definition
> of
> democracy with some 40 percent of the nation's
> population already having reached the "governmental
> dependency" phase.
Posted: Wed, 21st Jul 2004, 4:49am

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scobbs

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evman, where did you find that information? That was a very interesting read. +1

Can you point me to the original source?
Posted: Wed, 21st Jul 2004, 5:35am

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Klinn OWarren

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I don't read much reason why Bush is supposed to be this "Evil Incarnate", or much else for that matter. I hear a lot people knocking him for his tactics and the way he's trying to protect the United States. If this is all people have to say about him, I have three words: "Get a life". It's so easy to criticize those in power when they're placed in tough situations, and this is a troubling time for the USA. We've been attacked, and with more attempts uncovered. Our President took action to hold the responsible parties accountable, and most of what I read are comments making fun of him and criticizing how we're all in a mess. There is no other job that is harder to do, than being a leader, because everyone watches you. Whenever something bad happens, it will be the first thing anybody knows about; whether it's your fault or not. Everyone seems to miss or easily forget about what you do to help them as well. Let's not be too hasty of someone under the pressure Bush is facing - no one is perfect. If you're absolutely unhappy with him for some other reason, remember, it's not too late to pray for him. Something to think about...

Peace~
Posted: Wed, 21st Jul 2004, 5:39am

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Klinn OWarren

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er-no wrote:

free·dom (n.)

1. The condition of being free of restraints.

___________________

Laws are restraints.
We are not free.

(stirs it up)
Law

-A code of principles based on morality, conscience, or nature

*freedoms do not constitute the right to behave however one pleases - for example, murder is not a freedom; laws and enforcement thereof protect us against such actions
Posted: Wed, 21st Jul 2004, 7:57am

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MechaForce

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sidewinder wrote:

Now, I also looked up liberal in the thesaurus...

...not literal, not strict, permissive, pink, radical, rational,...
You right-wing-biaser! You left out all the other ones.

Advanced, LIBERTARIAN! (ouch), WAIT!! ok now that i've seen them, most of them are contradictory to each other (No, im not implying that liberals contradict themselves, just this dictionary).

I mean, it says: Interested, Disinterested. WTF! Nonetheless, the majority of synonyms are along the lines of unbigoted, unprejudiced, etc.

MORAL OF THE STORY: THAT THESAURUS SUCKS.

Other moral: You have to fight the power's def beats.
Posted: Wed, 21st Jul 2004, 9:35am

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Mellifluous

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evman101 wrote:

LOTSA CRAP ABOUT ALEXANDER TYLER
You've posted that before. Can you read? If so, then I suggest you read this since you HAVEN'T ALREADY.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/tyler.asp

In fact, since you're so good at copying & pasting, I'll paste my response to this from this thread entitled "Republican or Democrat?"

http://fxhome.com/forums/viewtopic.phpt=13931&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=150

I would suggest you read the entire article, & draw your attention to this

Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University is not the source of any of the statistics or the text attributed to him.
Without wanting to sound too harsh, that "article" is a fallacious, dangerous piece of propoganda.

Let's break down what it's REALLY saying.

- it implies that:-
- Republicans = affluent, good American taxpayers
- Democrats = poor
- poor live solely off the government
- poor = murderous
- Democrats = murderous

Therefore, it's just Republican propoganda. I'm surprised you quote it, considering you argue that you don't favour either Democrats or Republicans.

I'd vote neither right now if I was a voter in America. Bush has tarnished America's reputation & Kerry will do the same & bring in loads of policies that won't help either.

It goes down to funding. DO WE LIVE IN A DEMOCRACY?

NO.

Both Democrats & Republicans have raised $200m or so for their election campaigns.

There's no such thing as a free lunch. Whoever contributed to those parties will call in their dues, especially the big money contributors. And the laws brought in & contracts awarded will benefit private companies & not John Doe average American citizen.

Money will go into the economy as a result, sure, but if the economy is dominated by big companies then again, average American citizen won't see sh*t.

Same goes to UK too. My local council has relatives of a contracting firm on it. Is it a coincidence, then, that building & roadworks is always going on? Past examples of superb *sarcasm* public spending has been reversing the traffic in a one way street 3 times in one year.
Posted: Wed, 21st Jul 2004, 12:57pm

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Evman

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i just thought I'd refresh everyone's memory. And introduce it to people who might not have taken part in that debate.

Yes I can read. I'm not stupid. How could refreshing people's minds about a very interesting topic make me be illiterate?

What other people have been posting is democrat propoganda. Im not allowed to post republican's? And they are?I don't like democrats. Republicans are stupid too, but not as much, IMO. Everyone is entitled to their opinion! And they are?
Posted: Wed, 21st Jul 2004, 1:10pm

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Mellifluous

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People are giving opinions about their parties...call that propoganda if you will.

But that stuff you're posting is all made up, & is verified to be so:

* Alexander Tyler of Edinburgh never wrote that
* Dr Joseph Olsen of Hamline University never said that

This calls into doubt the content of the article too. The actual content is totally untrue too, & I refute that quoting this crap adds anything to this debate.

It may be very interesting to you, but do you not realise that this 8-tier system of human progression never actually occurred, that it was never written about by Alexander Tyler, & is just a figment of some internet writer's imagination?

I suggest you read up about the Indus Valley Civilisation if you really must peruse your curiousity for ancient civilisations. Now, that's interesting.
Posted: Wed, 21st Jul 2004, 1:33pm

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Evman

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may not be 100% acurate, but it's still true, if you really think about it. At least someone here found it interesting.
Posted: Wed, 21st Jul 2004, 2:54pm

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sidewinder

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Who cares who wrote it, just debate whetther or not it holds any truth.
Posted: Wed, 21st Jul 2004, 4:16pm

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Evman

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Mellifluous wrote:


- it implies that:-
- Republicans = affluent, good American taxpayers
- Democrats = poor
- poor live solely off the government
- poor = murderous
- Democrats = murderous

WTF? I just got back and now i have a chance to answer this properly! This doesn't say that democrats are murders!!! It talks about how people are becoming dependant on the government, which is true. True and sad.

My dad told me this the other day:

Social Security is a sham. People, like my parents, who have been paying into it for more than 40 years are getting screwed. There have been reports of places in the country where a school, for example, will hire a person to be a janitor for ONE day. He gets ONE paycheck and pays ONE payment into social security.

That person who worked ONE day will get the same amount of money out of social security that my parents will. They worked for 40 YEARS! And he worked for ONE DAY.

Hardworking americans are getting screwed over because of people (mainly liberals) wanting to make the government all powerful and control everyone.

Tell me that doesn't resemble communism!
Posted: Wed, 21st Jul 2004, 4:31pm

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DigiSm89

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Frankly, my vote's with Kerry. Even if he isn't straight, it's better than voting for Bush, who after being elected into office will furthermore plunge our country into an never ending abyss. If Kerry is so much about changing the world, what could be much worse than what Bush put our country through?
Posted: Wed, 21st Jul 2004, 4:36pm

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Evman

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hmmmm...... what exactly did he put our country through? He had the guts to stand up to evil in the world? hm?
Posted: Wed, 21st Jul 2004, 8:02pm

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stqagehanduk

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No, he sent a lot of your countrymen off to die in an unjustified war.

And I'm English. I'm of neither of your two parties.

There's lots of words like "freedom" being thrown around without any regard to their meaning. What you might call "big" Government curbs Big Business, and what's wrong with that? Do you really trust faceless corporations to keep your best interests all at heart?

And what's wrong with the basic idea that people are more important than money anyway?
Posted: Wed, 21st Jul 2004, 9:08pm

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sfbmovieco

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You have no basis for your claim of "an unjustified war." How was it unjustified?

The more programs that the left side of the government makes to control people, the more it limits everyone...Big business, small business...Laissez faire type government has been proven...Why can't people realize this...
Posted: Wed, 21st Jul 2004, 9:21pm

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stqagehanduk

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All right then. How WAS is justified? Where are those pesky WMDs? If the people of Iraq are so very grateful then why are American soliders still coming home in boxes? And if Saddam was so very evil then why did the US help install him in the first place?

You're right. Pesky Government interfence. Pesky Child Labour laws. Pesky Health and Safety Laws. Pesky Minimum wage. Repeal it all! Let's have eight year olds working in cotton mills! Then we'll be able to compete with China!
Posted: Wed, 21st Jul 2004, 9:29pm

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stqagehanduk

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Have you seen Farenheit 9/11? The single most stomach turning scene in it is a business conference where all the gathered parties are rubbing their hands over the "opportunities" presented by the invasion of another Sovereign nation ...

I'm a pinko and I'm proud of it. I'll cheerfully pay a higher tax rate to ensure decent education and housing and health care and public transport.
Posted: Wed, 21st Jul 2004, 9:33pm

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sfbmovieco

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Your just being unreasonable and hurling leftist propaganda. Take the spoon from your mouth that was given to you by Clinton and listen. I'm not saying repel laws...I'm saying where do the laws stop...

And if you were to actually investigate, they have found plenty of WMD's and are still finding more. The 9/11 comission has become a joke, and will never indict Bush in any definitive way.

And how about that former Clinton aide trying to destroy confidential terrorism files...Does that sound fishy to you at all? Like maybe Clinton was somehow linked to Islamic terror?

If we go back to a benefit for Georgetown U. I beleive it was that Clinton did, he said that America has been hindering the progression of Islam since the crusades...

Obviously America was not around then, but more importantly that is an often used phrase from Jihad...Come on people, lets get our fact straight here and stop throwing around useless bile.


http://interestalert.com/brand/siteia.shtml?Story=st/sn/07210000aaa01bea.upi&Sys=siteia&Fid=WORLDNEW&Type=News&Filter=World%20News
Posted: Wed, 21st Jul 2004, 9:52pm

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Evman

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stqagehanduk wrote:

If the people of Iraq are so very grateful then why are American soliders still coming home in boxes?
here:



This statue currently stands outside the Iraqi palace, now home to the 4th Infantry division. It will eventually be shipped home and put in the memorial museum in Fort Hood, Texas.

The statue was created by an Iraqi artist named Kalat, who for years was forced by Saddam Hussein to make the many hundreds of bronze busts of Saddam that dotted Baghdad.

Kalat was so grateful for the Americans liberation of his country; he melted 3 of the heads of the fallen Saddam and made the statue as a memorial to the American soldiers and their fallen warriors. Kalat worked on this memorial night and day for several months.

To the left of the kneeling soldier is a small Iraqi girl giving the soldier comfort as he mourns the loss of his comrade in arms.

Do you know why we don't hear about this in the news? Because it is heart warming and praise worthy. The media avoids it because it does no
t have the shock effect that a flashed breast or controversy of politics does.

Its only the left side media that makes you think that the people of iraq are mass murdering our soldiers. The ones doing that are not the ones we saved. Those are the radicals.
Posted: Wed, 21st Jul 2004, 10:00pm

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xbreaka

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kerry is a hippocrit, he votes for the war then votes not to fund it then says he really didn't vote for that stuff even tho its recorded that he did. he misses half of the votes, my vote is with bush becuase if we had just let saddam sit there it would have gotten worse and worse and we all know the un is like the most unreliable organization in the world. and when people in britian say o bush is a conqueror its unjustified ah!!
lets look at some thing the brits have gotten involved in and you tell me if there justified.
1.falklands
2.war of 1812
3.all those damn wars with france
4.the opium war
etc etc etc
Those wars did not have a purpose the invasion of iraq did to get rid of a tyrant who gassed his own people and is a supporter of terrorism.
Posted: Wed, 21st Jul 2004, 10:09pm

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cantaclaro

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sfbmovieco wrote:

Your just being unreasonable and hurling leftist propaganda. Take the spoon from your mouth that was given to you by Clinton and listen. I'm not saying repel laws...I'm saying where do the laws stop...

And if you were to actually investigate, they have found plenty of WMD's and are still finding more. The 9/11 comission has become a joke, and will never indict Bush in any definitive way.

And how about that former Clinton aide trying to destroy confidential terrorism files...Does that sound fishy to you at all? Like maybe Clinton was somehow linked to Islamic terror?

If we go back to a benefit for Georgetown U. I beleive it was that Clinton did, he said that America has been hindering the progression of Islam since the crusades...

Obviously America was not around then, but more importantly that is an often used phrase from Jihad...Come on people, lets get our fact straight here and stop throwing around useless bile.


http://interestalert.com/brand/siteia.shtml?Story=st/sn/07210000aaa01bea.upi&Sys=siteia&Fid=WORLDNEW&Type=News&Filter=World%20News
It wasn't just Clinton's aid it was his NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR, stuffing documents the original handwritten uncopied documents from the national archive into his socks, shirt and underwear. Big difference!

Canta unsure
Posted: Wed, 21st Jul 2004, 10:14pm

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sfbmovieco

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Thanks for the correction. +1
Posted: Wed, 21st Jul 2004, 10:15pm

Post 58 of 163

stqagehanduk

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Clinton? Spoon?

I'm ENGLISH! I'm in ANOTHER COUNTRY!

They found plenty of WMDs and they're still finding more? Then why did I see - actually SEE - Bush on TV the other day, when challenged about the lack of WMDs reply (and I'm only paraphrasing slightly), "No, but he might have. He was a bad man and we needed to take him out."

"He might have."

There's a really funny Bill Hicks routine comparing American Foreign Policy to Jack Palance in Shane, but I'll spare you that.

And so some Iragi's are glad Saddam's gone. I'm not disputing that he was evil.

So - this is from the front page of The Indepent, a reputable English newspaper with Centrist politics. It doesn't list the US casulaties, I'm afraid.

Bristish Solidiers killed so far: 60
British soldiers injured: 2200
Iraqi soldiers killed: 6,370 (estimated)
Iragi civillians killed: 13,000 (estimated)
Projected cost of reconstruction: £55bn
UK cost of war £3.2bn
Annual cost of keeping UK troops in Iraq: £1.5bn
Percentage of Iraqis who would feel safer if US and UK troops left: 55
WMDs found: 0

So answer me, specifically and without resorting to non-answers like "making the world safer" ... why the hell were we actually there to start with? And why are we there now if not to simply safeguard all of Bush's lucrative little sidelines for his mates?
Posted: Wed, 21st Jul 2004, 10:21pm

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stqagehanduk

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The Falklands are English territory, you idiots. The only equivalence would be if Saddam had invaded Miami. The rest is ancient bloody history.

Saddam was no threat to the US. And if the US is going to ride on into town on every despot in the world can I expect to see the invasion of half of the rest of the world in the not too distant future? Or just the ones with oil?
Posted: Wed, 21st Jul 2004, 10:31pm

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Waser

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I'm really sick of people trying to say "Everyone is Iraq is happy that we are there!" because that is total crap. I'm really sick of people saying "Are they really better off than before? They hate us!" Because that is crap. Many people in Iraq hate us, and many love us. Stop flaunting statues and using that to show that they love us. Stop flaunting dead bodies to show that they hate us.

http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/2004/03/001780.html
Posted: Wed, 21st Jul 2004, 10:41pm

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Arktic

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Those wars did not have a purpose the invasion of iraq did to get rid of a tyrant who gassed his own people and is a supporter of terrorism.
How long before the US is off to get rid of Robert Mugabe?

What? You've got no plans to 'get rid' of this 'evil tyrant'? I'd be suprised if the majority of Americans even knew who Mugabe was. He kills his own people, and has carried out hundreds of human rights violations - yet where are the US troops in Zimbabwe?

What's the difference? Many would say that Zimbabwe has no oil, and that's the only reason the US don't care.
Posted: Wed, 21st Jul 2004, 11:21pm

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Evman

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Arktic wrote:


What's the difference? Many would say that Zimbabwe has no oil, and that's the only reason the US don't care.
Maybe it could be because we are currently still spending money on the iraq and terror wars. Maybe we can't afford do that right now. Since i guess we are now into the "people always use this excuse thing", then i'll join in too.

Liberal, anti-war people are always saying "why do we only go after iraq? Because of oil!" The fact is, we would go after any old tyranic country, but we went after Iraq first so that we can get some goddamn oil, which = $, to finance other liberating raids on countries.

To all those of you who think, we just went after Iraq for the oil, you are part right! good job. Duh. Oil is fricking important!
Posted: Wed, 21st Jul 2004, 11:45pm

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cantaclaro

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Arktic wrote:

Those wars did not have a purpose the invasion of iraq did to get rid of a tyrant who gassed his own people and is a supporter of terrorism.
How long before the US is off to get rid of Robert Mugabe?

What? You've got no plans to 'get rid' of this 'evil tyrant'? I'd be suprised if the majority of Americans even knew who Mugabe was. He kills his own people, and has carried out hundreds of human rights violations - yet where are the US troops in Zimbabwe?

What's the difference? Many would say that Zimbabwe has no oil, and that's the only reason the US don't care.
How long until the damn UNITED NATIONS and that fraud Kofi Annan get involved, or how long until they get involved in the genocide going on in the Sudan, where Muslims are killing off every non-Muslim in sight? When you can answer me why Kofi-At-One doesn't get off his slacking ass and help out with those situations then I'll answer your silly little question.

PS Ooooo I'm yellow!!!!

Canta unsure
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 1:11am

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Waser

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way to answer a question with a question. Just because the UN displays a lack of responsibility (sic..?) sometimes doesn't make the US's sometimes lack of responsibility OK
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 1:38am

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sfbmovieco

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evman101 wrote:




To all those of you who think, we just went after Iraq for the oil, you are part right! good job. Duh. Oil is fricking important!
We get so little of our oil from the middle east it's ridiculous...There was something in the 9/11 movie about how we just went there to install some oil pipeline, when in reality, it was removed before the war even started...

We have so much oil in Alaska and other parts of the country but the tree hugging wackos wont let us get to it...They all want the best of both worlds.

Every country at one point or another has let its hair down and missed some responsibilities it should of caught. But overall, America has proven to be a strong hold that other countries have depended on. This is not some hate speach to every other country out there, but you can't dispute that America is one of the most powerful countries out there.


I'm kind of upset no one has addressed the issue I started this thread with. How is Kerry so much better than Bush and why would he be a better president?? Missing 80% of his hired duty does not help him any. Bush is going to smoke him in November.
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 1:46am

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sfbmovieco

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Arktic wrote:




What's the difference? Many would say that Zimbabwe has no oil, and that's the only reason the US don't care.
Because he wasn't involved in a mass attack against our country. It's been researched that plenty of Al-queda ops were in the saddam line of command, that saddam gave money to the hijackers families, so on and so forth...When you get attacked by a group, then why do you wonder why we go and attack that group back...? Islam is not a religion of peace...People keep making excuses..Hardly anyone in the islamic church has come forward to completely exhonerate islam from terrorist actions...It's really sad that the good people excercising this religion have to deal with the horrific leadership of the countries and the church.
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 2:07am

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BackOfTheHearse

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evman101 wrote:

This statue currently stands outside the Iraqi palace, now home to the 4th Infantry division. It will eventually be shipped home and put in the memorial museum in Fort Hood, Texas.

The statue was created by an Iraqi artist named Kalat, who for years was forced by Saddam Hussein to make the many hundreds of bronze busts of Saddam that dotted Baghdad.

Kalat was so grateful for the Americans liberation of his country; he melted 3 of the heads of the fallen Saddam and made the statue as a memorial to the American soldiers and their fallen warriors. Kalat worked on this memorial night and day for several months.
*cough*

From Snopes.com:

"The sculture pictured above is real, and it was indeed crafted by an Iraqi sculptor from bronze recovered by melting down statues of former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein, but the explanatory text accompanying the photo is quite misleading: The Iraqi sculptor was not "forced by Saddam Hussein to make the many hundreds of bronze busts of Saddam," he did not produce the memorial shown because he was "so grateful that the Americans liberated his country," and the monument was not his idea. Members of the U.S. Army paid the sculptor, who had previously worked on a few other Saddam statues, to create the work pictured according to a design of their choosing."



Its only the left side media that makes you think that the people of iraq are mass murdering our soldiers. The ones doing that are not the ones we saved. Those are the radicals.
*cough #2*

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,126398,00.html

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,126425,00.html

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,126142,00.html

Fox News is possibly the most RIGHT-WING media out there, and there are hundreds of stories on there.

Also, just because someone takes something into their own hands and bombs US troops DOES NOT mean that they are the only ones who don't want us there. Thousands of INNOCENT Iraqis have been killed by US forces, and how do you think their families feel? Just because someone doesn't have an AK-47 or a bomb strapped to their chest doesn't mean that they are grateful for us being there.

Also...

Islam is not a religion of peace...People keep making excuses..Hardly anyone in the islamic church has come forward to completely exhonerate islam from terrorist actions...It's really sad that the good people excercising this religion have to deal with the horrific leadership of the countries and the church.

You seem to be forgetting the Crusades, The Salem Witch Trials, the Europeon Witch Trials (which you never hear about, and a lot of it is more horrific than our witch trials), the Inquisition, and hundred of other instances of the hypocrisy, violence, death, and wars centering around Christianity. The Catholic Church spreads lies about AIDS, and the church also promoted the non-cleanliness of the masses which helped to spread the Black Plague. You can't harp on one religion's actions without looking at others. Just because it isn't your religion and it's something you do not understand following does not make its actions universally horriffic. Every culture and every group has its methods which are seen as horrible and wrong by outsiders; it isn't just Islam.

Last edited Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 2:15am; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 2:11am

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Evman

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*cough* lets just drop the whole thing about whether the iraq's like us or not because, as Waser said:

Many people in Iraq hate us, and many love us.
Who says that snopes.com is correct?
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 2:26am

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BackOfTheHearse

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Who says that snopes.com is correct?
I don't claim that they are 100% correct. But they, unlike other places and websites, post their sources. And they have more than one reference to go by.

http://www.snopes.com/photos/military/kalat.asp

There's the article, and at the bottom are the listed sources.
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 2:55am

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sfbmovieco

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Will someone please address the issue?
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 3:07am

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Evman

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okay, he sucks. Thats why he wont win. lol wink
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 3:25am

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xbreaka

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john kerry is a idiot enuff said
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 7:35am

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MechaForce

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xbreaka wrote:

john kerry is a idiot enuff said
You aren't fit for this debate. Don't post anything else in this thread.

Morals Of The Story:

1) The UN is a slow & indecisive organization. Look at Bosnia & almost all of Africa. I think we can all agree on that.

2) Saddam was bad, however, many of the reasons of why he needed to be kicked out were exaggerated and intentionally distorted to change public opinion, and gain support for Bush. Don't debate this, because you're only fooling yourself.

3) Afrika.

4) There are extremists in all religions. Except Bhuddists. They aren't terrorists.

5) Yeah, Saddam wasn't a threat to the U.S. Nor are the fruitcake Muslim Janjaweed mofos in Africa. That doesn't mean we shouldn't do something about it.

6) Many people in Iraq love us, many people in Iraq hate us. Now shut up.

7) I hate fruitcake. And stop being such goddamn partisans.

You can all go home now.
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 8:33am

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stqagehanduk

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Actually, I'm sort of with Mecha here. We SHOULD have done something about it. We should have applied sanctions and political force. We hardly rode on, guns blazing, into South Africa, did we? Yet Apartheid fell, and no-one, as I recall, got invaded (unless you want to count the successful annexion of Ladysmith Black Mambazo by Paul Simon).

And, going back to the big government argument hat seems like a lifetime ago - if you think any oil gains from Iraq will go to fund other alleged peace-keeping incursions you're even more foolish than I had imagined, and I have a a VERY active imagination.
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 10:07am

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Mellifluous

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Evman & Sidewinder: I refuse to debate something when it's been presented to me in a deceptive way. Also, if you took the time to research the stats for yourself, you'd find they're totally inaccurate. The first time you presented me with that article, I was interested...but unlike some, I like to verify everything I read from a range of sources. Nothing in that article could be found to be true. Don't you get it?

Judging by the statue photo, & that inaccuracy too, it looks like you need to try to be more discerning about what you read!

I agree, it's bad that someone may be entitled for the same social welfare by just doing that one job on one day. But you've got to look at the big picture. Someone who works a job on one day is obviously someone who has no qualifications, so they drift from one job to another. Your father has held down a job for a long time. Good for him (really). But for this janitor guy, he still can't afford to not work, even if he does have social welfare when he retires guaranteed from that one job. He still has to drift from job to job, earning money to be able to live, to afford food. So in a way, he's still working, & still probably working the equivalent hours.

As for communism, I'm all for better pay if that's what you mean. Communists actually want to end capitalism - I don't believe in that. Wages should rise so people can at least afford to live the kind of life that's expected nowadays. This means computers, tv, video, dvd, a bed, a fridge, the ability to pay bills, the ability to have a family, to have a social life... I've done charity work on council estates in the UK & there are people who can't afford any of those things we take for granted, not because they don't work hard but because services are so expensive nowadays that a minimum wage cannot really pay for them.

All I can say is that some jobs are disproportionately paid. The emergency services are grossly underpaid. There are some people who are grossly overpaid. Me, I aim to be grossly overpaid, but I feel uncomfortable about unnecessary, unfair class gulfs that persevere. Just think about what would happen if the guys who cleaned the streets, collected the rubbish & cleaned sewers stopped doing their jobs? I shudder to think.

No one has commented on a comment I made, so I'll make it again: The funds of around $200m for Kerry & Bush are big money. Some of that money has been donated by big business, & this can't be for nothing. How, then, do people feel about this? Aren't you afraid that big business has too much influence over policies that concern the many, but benefit the few?
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 10:45am

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Arktic

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Because he wasn't involved in a mass attack against our country
That's BS. Pure and simple.

The independent reports in the UK have shown the intelligence about any supposed al-quaeda/Iraq links to highly, highly dubious - there's no evidence to link the two together.

What I think is a more important question is this - where were fifteen of the ninteen 9/11 the hijackers from? Um.... was it Saudi Arabia? Yes, yes it was. So why have you gone and attacked Iraq? Why not Saudi Arabia - homeplace of your best mate Osama Bin Laden. Could it be that, oh I don't know, Saudi Arabia is currently quite west-friendly, so you don't need to invade them to get your oil? Who knows... who knows.

Islam is not a religion of peace
Oh, and you've read the Qur'an have you?

You realise, your statement is THE BIGGEST load of bull I've heard in a long time? The word 'Islam' comes from 'Salam' - which means "peace".

It is a non-violent religion which preaches "If anyone murders an (innocent) person...it will be as if he has murdered the whole of humanity, and if anyone saves a person it will be as if he has saved the whole of humanity." How is this, in any way, not a 'religion of peace'?

Just because there are some whackos who say that what they are doing is in the name of Allah, does that mean that Islam is a violent or non-peacfull religion? Not at all.

If you want to take that logic, we can see that Christianity is just as, if not more, violent than Islam. You've just got to look at the fighting that's been going on for centuries amongst the Catholics and the Protestants, and the thousands that have been killed in the name of the Christian God. You've only got to look to Northern Ireland to see recent terrorist acts commited for the sake of Christianity. But I doubt that you'd say that chrisianity is not a religion of peace just because the IRA feel justified in commiting acts of terror in the name of god. But just because Al-Quaeda or somesuch do, you're prepared to comdemn the whole of Islam.

And who can forget that pesky Adolf Hitler, and his holocaust of the Jews. Nazi oppression and massacres against political opponents and gypsies were obviously secular in nature - but the determination to exterminate the Jews from the face of the earth cannot possibly be understood without the background of centuries of persistent and violent anti-semitism, generally encouraged by religious authorities. Again - way to go for those non-violent christians! Good old Catholic Hitler, killing Jews in the name of peace.

What about those crusades in the middle ages? I suppose that was pretty peacefull when the European Christians attempted to impose their vision of religion upon Jews, Orthodox Christians, heretics, Muslims, and just about anyone else who happened to get in the way. When they decided that before they traveled across Europe to kill God's enemies, it would be a good idea to eliminate the infidels in their midst. Thus suitably motivated, hundred of thousands of defenseless men, women and children were chopped, burned or otherwise slaughtered. Way to go! Chrisitanity is obviously far more peacefull than Islam!

And what about those wonderfull and peacefull times during the Christian's Holy inquisition? You know, when the Christians, in the peace loving way, tortured and killed hundreds and thousands of people suspected of being infidels? Way to go!

How's about good old George Bush racing in to attack the Iraqis because he thinks that it's the Christian thing to do. Again - another great example of how Christianity is such a peacefull religion.

But yet, you seem to think that Islam isn't a religion of peace.

Last edited Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 10:46am; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 10:45am

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stqagehanduk

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Yes to what Mellifluous just said.

We did vaguely cover that last point, vaguely. I personally think that Big Business can't be trusted any further than its thrown, while our young friends here seem to think it should be left alone to thrive and generously rain down its blessings on us all.

It doesn't help when the News services are so blatantly editorially bound by business concerns either.
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 1:28pm

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xbreaka

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yep we all know the un is a bunch of beurocrats who never do anything but bicker.
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 1:48pm

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Mellifluous

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I agree with what you're saying, Arktic.

It is wrong to condemn any religion as violent.

Unfortunately, a lot of disgusting things have been done in the name of religion, including awful treatment of the Incas & other inhabitants of what is now called America back in the 1400s & 1500s by Spanish colonists such as Cortes.

Religion is power, you see. Many have used it as state ideological apparatus to control people & justify this control. Just playing Medieval Total War will confirm this!

I believe it is very dangerous for political powers to assert themselves religiously. George Bush & Tony Blair are both committed Christians, as has been well publicised. Add to that, they are fighting terrorists, who all happen to be from the Middle East, & that America has advertised the fact that they support Israel against the Palestinians. Israel itself is hardly blameless for being violent (nor Palestine). I think no one is in a position to take sides in such a situation.
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 2:17pm

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Gibs

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I agree with you, Mel. While I think it's okay for Bush and Blair to state their religions, the US shouldn't take sides like that. Neither the Israelis nor the Palestinians who are fighting are actually following their religions, because each teach love and peace as a way of life. Personally, it makes me sick whenever people claim to fight "in the name of God", because all they are doing is giving Christians a bad name.
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 2:28pm

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MechaForce

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xbreaka wrote:

yep we all know the un is a bunch of beurocrats who never do anything but bicker.
You're missing the point.
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 3:22pm

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sidewinder

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Mellifluous, I'll get to the second half of your post later, since it deals with economics and capitalism, etc..., and I like to talk about that stuff more than politicians.

But first...

Evman & Sidewinder: I refuse to debate something when it's been presented to me in a deceptive way...
What? The last time I commented was on Florida and dictionary definitions. Since no one has refuted me on the Florida thing, I'll assume I won that argument. smile

Last edited Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 4:17pm; edited 2 times in total.

Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 3:39pm

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sidewinder

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Religion of peace?

[2.190] And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.
[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.
[2.192] But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[2.193] And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.
There's more?

4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
Now, I might be taking this out of context. Who knows? I'm not going to take the time to read the full Koran. I just don't remember The Bible having any passages that say "Kill so-and-so". If I'm taking this stuff the wrong way, I hope someone corrects me.

Oh wait, there's more?

[17.33] And do not kill any one whom Allah has forbidden, except for a just cause, and whoever is slain unjustly, We have indeed given to his heir authority, so let him not exceed the just limits in slaying; surely he is aided.
Eesh. Here's the online Koran where I found these quotes, if you are so inclined to read it. Once again, I apologize if I unknowingly took this stuff out of context, but honestly...

http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/browse.html
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 4:37pm

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Mantra

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I'd just like to add, albeit on a slight aside, that conventional arms and 'military might' now count for less.
It's easier to prepare to fight an army but when it's individuals acting out forms of terrorism, especially suicide bombers, how is it best to defend against that? Invading countries?
It will come down to intelligence and it's going to be a huge test for all. At present it seems that we in the west are struggling,whether a super power or not.

Last edited Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 5:20pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 4:38pm

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MechaForce

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Let's not debate whether Islam is a religion of piece or not.

There are fools doing retarded things "in the name of" Islam. That is all you need to know that Islam isn't a religion of peace. What is happening now can be considered a tad more than an exception.

Christianity isn't any better. People do stupid things for it too. We don't have Christian terrorists at this point in our history, but that doesn't mean it hasn't had it's time.
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 4:49pm

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xbreaka

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lol buddas never do anything wrong
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 5:20pm

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Evman

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Evman & Sidewinder: I refuse to debate something when it's been presented to me in a deceptive way.
hahahahahaha! who cares who wrote it? The point is that it is true.

here we go again. The out of work people debate:

If they don't have the qualifications, then they don't deserve the job. Thats it. Its that simple.

still probably working the equivalent hours.
lol. Not with the democrats taking care of them from the government.

The Bush Administration has done a good job creating a bigger job market. IMO, people who are having trouble with jobs are realizing, "Hey, we don't need to work, the government will save us!" That all leads back to the governmental dependency stage as I posted earlier. Its really sad that democrats are turning America into a bunch of lazy bums not caring enough to work.

yep we all know the un is a bunch of beurocrats who never do anything but bicker.
hahahaha! simply put, yeah, thats true. They were too scared to handle iraq. The US, under Bush took the initiative.
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 5:36pm

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Rawree

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MechaForce wrote:


We don't have Christian terrorists at this point in our history.
Wouldn't the IRA fall under that category?
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 6:01pm

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BackOfTheHearse

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Rawree wrote:

MechaForce wrote:


We don't have Christian terrorists at this point in our history.
Wouldn't the IRA fall under that category?
Or Bush.
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 6:01pm

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sidewinder

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Is their motive based on religion, politics, or territory?

Let's not debate whether Islam is a religion of piece or not.
Let's not be so quick to dismiss the argument.

Christianity isn't any better. People do stupid things for it too. We don't have Christian terrorists at this point in our history, but that doesn't mean it hasn't had it's time.
Christianity isn't any better? I beg to differ. As I said earlier, where in The Bible, does it actually command you to kill someone?

Now, considerring you are going back to the middle ages and renaissance for your "christian" violence, I find it hard to think that the christian track record is the same as islamic violence, which not only occured back then, but is still occurring to an extreme today.

Also, consider the fact that the events that you refer to were conducted by the established curch, which was as much of a governmental institution as a religious one. As for religious fanatics acting on their own, as is the case with islamic terror today, I don't see that in the christian religion. The Salem witch trials, maybe? I can't really think of much else.

I like this quote:

"If Islam is a religion of peace, then shouldn't Islamic extremists be extremely peaceful?"


Now, in closing, I just want to say that I don't think being a muslim requires one to be violent. There are many other parts of the Koran that condemn what we see today. It is forbidden for one muslim to kill another, for example. But on that same idea, I also want to dispell the notion that Islam is a complete religion of peace, and that besides finding parts of the Koran that condemn killing, you also find other parts that promote it.
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 6:08pm

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sidewinder

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nitroviper007 wrote:

Rawree wrote:

MechaForce wrote:


We don't have Christian terrorists at this point in our history.
Wouldn't the IRA fall under that category?
Or Bush.
The sad part is I can't tell if you're joking.
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 6:19pm

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sfbmovieco

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You all hate Bush so much it's terrifying. I beat if you guys had the chance to kill them you would. As much as I disliked Clinton, no one hated him this much. You guys are the partisans who create hatred and negativity in our country. Negativity never helped anyone.


How in any way is Kerry better than Bush?

No one can answer that.
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 6:26pm

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Evman

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no one can answer because there is no way that kerry is better. And their lack of response proves it. Wow, Sbfmovieco and I are getting along.... Astonishing developments. eek
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 6:31pm

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sfbmovieco

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It astonishes me. With all their former, they cant come up with any bullshit to BS there way out of this one.
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 6:34pm

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Arktic

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Those quotes are out of context.

I just don't remember The Bible having any passages that say "Kill so-and-so".
Um...

Exodus 17, where the Lord gives Joshua his blessing to kill the Amalekites.

Exodus 32:17, where God tells moses "Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor."

Numbers 15:35 Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp." (The man's crime? Gathering sticks on a sabbath).

Numbers 21:34-35 The LORD said to Moses, "Do not be afraid of him, for I have handed him over to you, with his whole army and his land. Do to him what you did to Sihon king of the Amorites, who reigned in Heshbon." So they struck him down, together with his sons and his whole army, leaving them no survivors.

Deuteronomy 7:2 and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally

Judges 21:11 "This is what you are to do," they said. "Kill every male and every woman who is not a virgin."

Samuel 15:3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys

Ezekiel 9:5 Follow him through the city and kill, without showing pity or compassion

Ezekiel 9:6 Slaughter old men, young men and maidens, women and children
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 6:37pm

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sfbmovieco

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Good job. Way to take lines out of context. If you knew anything about the Bible you would realize that those are all from the old testament, where no one was saved and sin ran amuck. It was not until Jesus died for all our sins and was killed, that God no longer commanded such things.

And the people who were supposed to be killed went against God and the people of God...Islamic terrorists are killing innocent people just going through their daily lifes.

You make me laugh how much of a jerk off you are.

You fight out of context lines by doing the exact same thing? Way to be an idiot.
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 6:39pm

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sfbmovieco

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Ark, tell me why Kerry is better than Bush as our president.
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 6:40pm

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Arktic

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What? They're out of context? NEVER!

That completley wasn't the point I was trying to make about taking lines out of context from the Qur'an (which you probably don't know jack shit about) or anything.

There was me, being an bunghole, quoting things out of context just for the crack!

[/sarcasm]

You fool.

You fight out of context lines by doing the exact same thing? Way to be an idiot
No, it's using an example to prove a point.

Last edited Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 6:42pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 6:41pm

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Arktic

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SFB - did I ever claim that Kerry was better than Bush? Show me where I put that?
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 6:42pm

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sfbmovieco

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No but that's the whole reason for this thread. If you can't come up with a claim of why kerry is better than bush then go post your hatred elsewhere.
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 6:44pm

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Arktic

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Hatred? I was just disupting the suggestion that 'Islam is not a religion of peace' - a claim I feel is unjust and offensive.
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 6:47pm

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sfbmovieco

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If it isnt, then how come islamic leaders condone their actions? No one speaks up about it. No matter what their holy book says, there is no peace there. Show me the peace.
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 6:48pm

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BackOfTheHearse

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sidewinder wrote:

Christianity isn't any better? I beg to differ. As I said earlier, where in The Bible, does it actually command you to kill someone?
Gen 22:2
And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

Lev. 20:2
Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.

Lev. 20:9
For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.

Lev. 20:10
And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

Lev. 20:13
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.



This is just scratching the surface, here.
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 6:52pm

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sfbmovieco

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Again nitro, all from the old testament...Poorly misinformed.
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 6:54pm

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Arktic

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how come islamic leaders condone their actions
A very, very small percentage of those who practice or teach Islam condone such actions - in much the same way that very few people agreed with what the IRA did in the name of god.

You just don't get to hear the ordinary Muslim leader's views, because they're far less interesting than hearing some psycho like Abu Hamza (the guy with a hook) spout hatred towards the west.
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 6:56pm

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Arktic

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Poorly misinformed
A double negative. To be 'misinformed poorly' would be to be informed well razz

But either way, both mine and Nitro's examples may come from somewhere in the bible which is not relevant, as might those which Sidewinder posted from the Qur'an. That's exactly the point we wish to prove :

The texts DO contain such statements, but they need to be read in context.

Last edited Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 7:45pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 7:27pm

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Evman

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woah, guys, calm down! lol

someone just answer the question posed in this thread, then we can go back to arguing about religion... tard
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 7:28pm

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Hajiku_Flip

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Remember guys --- this has to be a somewhat G-rated forum. Watch the language and try to keep away from flamebait. This thread is walking the line and while I'd like to see it continue, if things get out of hand it can't. Just remember that we're all adults, or can at least act like one. wink
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 7:41pm

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sfbmovieco

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Okay. Then can someone please answer the question posed in the beginning of this thread?
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 7:49pm

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Waser

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I just read through what has been posted since I fell asleep and it's frustrating. I think there's about 3 people here who can actually keep their cool about this.

You can't say "Why is Kerry better than Bush?" because obviously someone who likes Kerry over Bush will have conflicting views with you, and what you think is good for the country, the Kerry supporter will most likely think is not (sorry if the grammar is bad right there, I'm tired).

Why I would like Kerry to be president over Bush:
http://www.issues2000.org/John_Kerry.htm
I agree with most of the things he has done/supports
Why I would not like Bush to be president over Kerry:
http://www.issues2000.org/George_W__Bush.htm
I disagree with most of the things he has done/supports

Sorry if this seems like I just found a link, posted it, and tried to let it do all my talking. What I'm trying to say is, this is why I think that Kerry would be a better president, but I'm sure sfbmovieco will think otherwise
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 8:01pm

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sfbmovieco

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It's funny how you had issues for Kerry because last time I saw he couldn't make up his mind on an issue or vote for an issue , because remember, he's missed 80% of his votes...WHICH IS WHY HE IS GETTING PAID.
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 8:13pm

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Mellifluous

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sidewinder wrote:


What? The last time I commented was on Florida and dictionary definitions. Since no one has refuted me on the Florida thing, I'll assume I won that argument. smile
Misunderstanding. You said let's not argue about who wrote Evman101's Athenian Republic essay, but about whether it's true or not (further back).

I disagree with you about Florida but am a bit bored of saying about Jeb Bush, Katharine Harris, withheld votes etc, which seem totally unacceptable to me. So ok, you've won the argument on that one smile

Sidwinder, the Koran in those verses is basically saying to believers, don't fight until fought, kill those who have driven you out of what's rightfully yours, kill the unjust, fight until there is no persecution etc. Which seems pretty reasonable to me, & complies with what the Bible says about an eye for an eye & a tooth for a tooth. Of course, Jesus said differently.

All religions have violence associated with them. Even Christianity

[quote=evman101"]hahahahahaha! who cares who wrote it? The point is that it is true[/quote]

hahahahahaha! no it's not. What part of it is true? PM me instead.

[quote=evman101"]If they don't have the qualifications, then they don't deserve the job. Thats it. Its that simple[/quote]

Qualifications? there are plenty of people out there who for some reason won't have qualifications. Does this mean these people shouldn't have any job at all? And if they don't have any job at all, won't that mean they won't have any money? And won't that mean they'll then starve? What qualifications do you need, anyway, for janitor work, shop assistants or collecting rubbish? Don't get me wrong, I believe in a meritocracy as you do, but there HAVE to be people at the bottom of our society - but their circumstances are always going to be complex, & I think it's wrong to discriminate against them & perceive them as thieves, living the good life etc if they have to seek short term state help. I don't believe in long term nannying by the state, & no government in their right mind would bring in legislation allowing this.

At the moment, I don't like the Republican view on this as it seems too extreme against poor people. If the Democrats have policies that go to the other extreme, then I don't agree with that.

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Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 8:15pm

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sidewinder

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Back to the bible stuff for a second.

The passages from The Bible that you posted are not passages telling us how to live our lives. Once again, correct me if I'm wrong, but the passages from the Koran are rules on how to live your life. Secondly, as sfb said, those are from the old testament. Don't forget, we're talking about Christianity, not Judaism. You have to take the new testament into account.

But that's all on this subject from me. Back to the topic at hand.
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 8:18pm

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sfbmovieco

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Well then America must be out of its mind. Welfare was a short term program created by a democrat that did not help get us out of the depression. (the war did) fdr's alphabet soup of state and federal job creation combined with welfare programs has forever sent us spiraling into the abyss that is lowering our society day by day.
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 8:19pm

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stqagehanduk

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To answer the original question - I have no idea whether or not Kerry is better than Bush, but I DO know that he's NOT Bush, which is a big plus in his favour. And that's not Pinko hatred of a REblucan President, its rational worry in the face of a monster without shame.

Going waaaaaay back (I have had to go to work in the meantime and things have moved on without me), and to answer sidewinder - The only reason I didn't pick you up on your bold assertion that the whole Florida debacle has been proven not to be a crooked fix by the Reblicans is because your sources are soi skewed and selective (as has been kindly pointed out by othere) that it hardly seemed worth the bother.

I don't know that much about Kerry, but I don't think that changing your mind automatically makes you a weaker person - it makes you a more intelligent one, if anything. You may think one thing and then re-evaluate in the light of new information.

As for the dole ...

I've been unemployed for precisely two weeks of my adult life (I'm thirty six). I've drawn precisely one dole cheque. I'm from the Estates with a single parent and (largely) absentee alcoholic Father. I started out, in all sorts of practical ways, disadvantaged. Yet I don't need help. But if I DID need it, I'd like to know it's there.

There are the ill and the damaged and the temporarily disadvantaged who do need help. There are always going to be people who take advantage of any system.

I wa spretty right wing myself when I was a teenager (back in the dawn of time) - all those petty certanties about the weak being at the bottom where they belonged seemed pretty attractive to an immature mind lacking empathy. But I grew up. It's all just BS anyway - capitalism is just a way of keeping social score, just like just about every other system. So what's wrong with trying to be kind?

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Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 8:24pm

Post 116 of 163

Waser

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sfbmovieco wrote:

It's funny how you had issues for Kerry because last time I saw he couldn't make up his mind on an issue or vote for an issue , because remember, he's missed 80% of his votes...WHICH IS WHY HE IS GETTING PAID.
what do you mean missed 80% of his votes?

Plus that list of issues includes all of the things the voted/sopported that I disagree with, and even though I don't particularly like Kerry, I agree on many more things with Kerry than I do with Bush, and the canidate I support the most has no chance in hell for winning, and I want bush out that much, I will support someone who I disagree with on some issues to who is the best bet on getting bush (who I disagree with on most issues) out.

As for flip flopping, that IS something that Kerry does (but so does another person you support, and pretty much most political figures, but that doesn't make Kerry's flip flopping alright). I find it funny though, that most of the issues he has flipped on invlove supporting Bush. On Bush's site you find the flip flop page on Kerry and it is like "Did you KNOW Kerry SUPPORTED the patriot ACT?! AND HE SUPPORTED THE WAR?!??!?!"
Many people who signed the patriot act did so without reading it, and when Kerry defended it, he most likely wasn't aware of the human rights violations in it. Or maybe it was because we were still fresh off of 9/11. I'm a very liberal person, and after 9/11 I said "At least we have Bush as president, because he'll actually do something about this." OH NO!!! I'M A FLIP FLOPPER!!!! DON'T LISTEN TO A WORD I SAY!!!!! or is there a chance that I regret supporting Bush at anypoint, and Kerry feels the same? I'd say there is a good chance. The Kerry flip flopping really doesn't worry me at all because he used to support to things I did not, but of all the "flip flops" he changed his opinion to things that I agree with. I don't think he changed his opinions to get votes, I think he seriously thought about what he had done, learned more about it, then changed his mind. Then again, it's impossibe to know why he changed his mind, because it is entirely possible that he is only switching his opinions to get elected (but I don't believe that). I could talk about all the Bush flip-flops, but what good would that do? none, so I won't.

So is my answer still invalid? I agree with Kerry on the current issues (for the most part) and disagree with Bush. That is why, to me, in my opinion, Kerry would be a better president.
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 8:33pm

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Arktic

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The passages from The Bible that you posted are not passages telling us how to live our lives. Once again, correct me if I'm wrong, but the passages from the Koran are rules on how to live your life. Secondly, as sfb said, those are from the old testament. Don't forget, we're talking about Christianity, not Judaism. You have to take the new testament into account.
Most Muslim scholars interpret these passages from the Koran in the context of the early war between Mohammed's followers and those who opposed them - much in the same way that a Christian would read the passages about Joshua slaying the infidels and realise that this is not the sort of guidance by which our lives should be goverened.

And yes, the new testament does need to be taken into account when considering the Bible - but you must also consider the WHOLE teachings of the Islamic faith, rather than taking small passages and making generalisations, which can only present a biased and misguided view. If one were only to quote the passages of the bible in which God condemns people to death or condones slaughter, to someone who has no prior knowledge of the Christian faith, then they would come away with a very distorted view of what it means to be Christian. However, this often seems to be the case with Islam, with the anti-Muslims taking passages out of context and exposing the public to them.

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Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 8:33pm

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sfbmovieco

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John Kerry is a senator..His job is to vote on issues. He gets paid to do so. He has missed 80% of those in his quest to become president.
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 8:34pm

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Evman

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god. some of you people make me sick. You hate George Bush that much? Wow. Why don't you try being president during such a pressing time. Just try it. What? Its hard? Oh no! Geez. Its sick how much people can hate other people in this world. Its even sicker that people hate people so much in OUR OWN COUNTRY! For gods sake, listen to yourselves! You are going on like if a lightning bolt hit Bush in the face and killed him, you'd all start laughing your asses off.

I don't like Bush that much, but, c'mon. I didn't like Clinton because he lied to millions of people and acted like a childish bafoon, but I don't want him dead! Just take a second all of you who would vote for Kerry JUST to get Bush out... just a minute, and read over your posts about Bush. He has to take all of your liberal bullsh*t every freaking day! Would you like to live with half of the world wanting to see you dead? Would you?
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 8:35pm

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stqagehanduk

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I'd have to check that (Your sources have been challenged well enough to prove them suspect), but I do belive that Bush was on holiday for 42% of his presidency prior to 9/11. Care to comment on that?

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Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 8:37pm

Post 121 of 163

stqagehanduk

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Calm down evman. Think green thoughts. Your beloved Presidente will probably fix the polls and go sailing in again no matter what people vote ...
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 8:40pm

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Evman

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wow. You are mean. I don't even like bush. Hes not my "beloved presidente" sorry, i dont speak spanish. FYI, Gore was the one who lost and called for a re-count.

P.S. The "edit" button is very useful, you know.
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 8:42pm

Post 123 of 163

Waser

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sfbmovieco wrote:

John Kerry is a senator..His job is to vote on issues. He gets paid to do so. He has missed 80% of those in his quest to become president.
I'm sorry I just can't grasp this concept. He didn't vote..?

I don't want Bush dead. I don't want anyone dead.
Even though I don't like Kerry that much, and I agree with Walt Brown on more issues, I would rather support a person I agree more with that has a chance to defeat Bush, who I agree with on almost NOTHING.
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 8:44pm

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stqagehanduk

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Useful but not essential, evman.

Can you say "wholesale disenfranchisement"? I'm sure you can.

Can someone actually tell me where this 80% figure comes from? I'm not taking it as true just because our little Pro-Bush Lobby is throwing it around.
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 9:06pm

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sfbmovieco

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Its not that he didnt vote, it means he was not even in washington at the time to vote. if you go on any search engine and look it up, youll find the info.
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 9:41pm

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sidewinder

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Going waaaaaay back (I have had to go to work in the meantime and things have moved on without me), and to answer sidewinder - The only reason I didn't pick you up on your bold assertion that the whole Florida debacle has been proven not to be a crooked fix by the Reblicans is because your sources are soi skewed and selective (as has been kindly pointed out by othere) that it hardly seemed worth the bother.
What!?

You must be reading my posts through a pretty dense cloud of pre-concieved notions, because I don't see how describing constutional law equates a skewed and selective source.

-

A crooked fix by republicans?

Our president will fix the polls?

Those our conspiracy theories, which I have generally enjoyed a good laugh at. Please, let us go back to the Florida post. I'd like you to break it down, describing to me where I have strayed from the path of enlightenment.

-

About the Koran thing, like I said earlier, I have not read it, nor have I studied it. I only did a quick search, and found that there were passages that I read that condoned violence. I do not know the context of those passages, nor the full meaning. I'm not as much trying to make a point as to throw something out there to chew on.
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 10:12pm

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MechaForce

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This is why Kerry is better than Bush:

1) Doesn't want to run the country completely based on the bible.

2) The economy does better under democrats.

http://money.cnn.com/2004/01/21/markets/election_demsvreps/

3) Doesn't flip flop as much as Bush (This stuff is from 2000-2001 compared with now):
---A. Against US involvement in war without total UN approval and widespread support, then goes to war in Iraq without either.
---B. Voted against patients rights / malpractice bills, then became in favor, then became against it once again.
---C. Pledged not to spend Social Security surplus, but did.
---D. Said we found WMD's. Then said we didn't.
---E. On abortion, previously supported leaving the decision to only the woman and the doctor, now against completely.
---F. For carbon monoxide caps, reducing pollution, and now is against it.
---G. Wanted Osama captured immediately. Now Bush says, "I truly am not that concerned about him."

I can go on forever. I win. You lose. Don't give me negatives because you're sad and pouty either. Get a grip on your life.

Last edited Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 10:21pm; edited 2 times in total.

Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 10:14pm

Post 128 of 163

Evman

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MechaForce wrote:



I can go on forever. I win. You lose.
wow, thats ignorant. no one really ever wins a debate. its just fun.
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 10:16pm

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MechaForce

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evman101 wrote:

wow, thats ignorant. no one really ever wins a debate. its just fun.
You don't know what ignorant is. And yes, people win debates.

Ex:

You: Trees are made of plastic.
Me: No, they're not. They're made of wood.

I win.

What's so fun about being proved wrong?

Last edited Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 10:18pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 10:17pm

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Xcession

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What a hilarious style of arguement razz make the font twice as big, and just say you're right! genius!
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 10:17pm

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Arktic

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Woah - someone posts what you've been asking for, and all you can do is comment on how he's missed the point of the debate?

Looks to me like Mecha has the stronger argument.
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 10:20pm

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MechaForce

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Xcession wrote:

What a hilarious style of arguement razz make the font twice as big, and just say you're right! genius!
Well, sometimes implying that I'm right just doesn't work.
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 10:21pm

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Waser

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yeah, is it just me, or have many people given reasons, but those reasons are cast aside/not adressed, then the people want reasons.
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 10:23pm

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sfbmovieco

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That link says that the stock market does better...Thats not the whole economy...And who's to say that some democrats act like republicans on issues of the economy. (jfk gave some nice tax cuts in his time in office)

Come on, don't be so ignorant.


It's just you because no one has addressed me. So this whole thread is a moot point.
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 10:27pm

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Evman

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that is a really sad way to debate... to not let the other side have a rebuttal. thats selfish and ignorant.

If you're gonna be that way, then

I WIN YOU LOSE

see, its pointless to say that, cause someone who disagrees can say the same thing.
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 10:28pm

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aenigma

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actually the washington times says as of july 11 it's 89%. kerry probably just figures if bush can be a deserter from the national guard he can skip a few congressional sessions. all's fair in love and politics.
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 10:29pm

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MechaForce

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sfbmovieco wrote:

It's just you because no one has addressed me. So this whole thread is a moot point.
I'm glad I'm not the one resorting to name calling when proved wrong.

If we put "Dear sfbmovieco," at the beginnings of each post will they count?
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 10:30pm

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Evman

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Arktic wrote:

Woah - someone posts what you've been asking for, and all you can do is comment on how he's missed the point of the debate?

Looks to me like Mecha has the stronger argument.
Im not talking about what he posted in terms of arguments, cause they were very good, but to just pronounce yourself right.

I gave a lot of posts with useful info in them.... did i say that i was automatically right? for no chance of rebuttal?
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 10:33pm

Post 139 of 163

MechaForce

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evman101 wrote:

that is a really sad way to debate... to not let the other side have a rebuttal. thats selfish and ignorant.
I didn't lock the thread. No one stopped you from countering me.

Everyone stop complaining and prove me wrong. THAT'S how you debate. Not by sitting around saying "You're ignorant because you...did...something."

Evman, YOU'VE HAD 3 CHANCES SO FAR TO MAKE A REBUTLE BUT YOU HAVE WASTED THEM BY CALLING ME IGNORANT. DO NOT SAY YOU HAVE NO CHANCE TO SPEAK.

Last edited Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 10:36pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 10:36pm

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Waser

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sfbmovieco wrote:



How in any way is Kerry better than Bush?

No one can answer that.

sfbmovieco wrote:

It's just you because no one has addressed me.
Oh yeah, beacuse this is nothing:

MechaForce wrote:

This is why Kerry is better than Bush:

Waser wrote:


Why I would like Kerry to be president over Bush:
Sorry if I missed anyone.

If this whole thread is about telling you why people think Kerry is better, tell me how MechaForce's statement and others aren't adressing yours.

Last edited Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 10:39pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 10:37pm

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Evman

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MechaForce wrote:

evman101 wrote:

that is a really sad way to debate... to not let the other side have a rebuttal. thats selfish and ignorant.
I didn't lock the thread. No one stopped you from countering me.

Everyone stop complaining and prove me wrong. THAT'S how you debate. Not by sitting around saying "You're ignorant because you...did...something."
I will respond to that, but i just think that its a somewhat sissy way to debate. You think only you are right. i tried to counter what you said about you being right, and you spat in my face. even worse. I will counter what you said, but i've been debating here and on im with my friends for a good hour and a half now and i am exhausted.

I'll post a reply in a bit.
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 10:38pm

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er-no

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They are both men who want power.

With power comes great responsibility.
Whoever is in charge, they will make mistakes. Bush or Kerry.
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 10:40pm

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sfbmovieco

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When they are just web sites going, here look at this, look at what i can copy and paste...Thats just..A waste of my time. Come on, I responded to him and said how it wasnt true.
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 10:43pm

Post 144 of 163

MechaForce

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sfbmovieco wrote:

When they are just web sites going, here look at this, look at what i can copy and paste...Thats just..A waste of my time. Come on, I responded to him and said how it wasnt true.
Post links if you want to. No one said you can't. In fact it helps, because it shows that there is more proof behind what you're saying.
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 10:44pm

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Mr Pencil

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er-no wrote:

They are both men who want power.
Evman and Mechaforce- they both want the power of being right. And do you know who's right? Wait, Stop... HAMMER TIME!

*Mr. Pencil buys parachute pants*
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 10:44pm

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Waser

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I didn't really look at the stock market thing, but you can't say that his opinions are not true.

Also, I put links up, because I didn't want to copy and paste something that would take up an entire page on the forum. It's very practical (sic?) to link things.
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 10:48pm

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MechaForce

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This thread really got killed.
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 10:58pm

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Evman

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well, since we all feel like copying and pasting website links with general information, here:

1- Bush will fight terrorism better
- http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/7/21/152331.shtml

2-President Bush yesterday set out the broad principles that he said would guide his domestic agenda for a second term, saying he would tackle education, health care, energy and the economy through an emphasis on limited government, individual responsibility and the power of markets.
- http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/183117_camp22.html

3- Bush will make the country safer
- http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2004/07/20/politics1829EDT0714.DTL

2) The economy does better under democrats.
okay, but there are other issues besides the economy. It seems to be doing just fine now. -

http://www.georgewbush.com/Economy/
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/01/29/elec04.prez.bush.dems/
http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/commentary/story/0,4386,262888,00.html

Doesn't flip flop as much as Bush (This stuff is from 2000-2001 compared with now):
then thats not acurate! you cant fairly compare a political idea from 3 years ago from one today. Thats like trying to say that a corvette is better than the original ford because it is faster.



There ya go.
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 11:07pm

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sfbmovieco

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LOCK IT BEFORE ITS TOO LATE. PEOPLE ARE JUST REPEATING THEMSELVES. AHHHHH!!!!!!!!!
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 11:11pm

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Evman

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AH! Beetles!
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 11:24pm

Post 151 of 163

stqagehanduk

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Well, boys, I think this will be my last post on this particular subject as I'm all argued out. In summary:

Religion possibly okay (I'm reticent on that as I'm an atheist, but, what the hell, it makes some people happy) except in the hands of Nutters - Islamic, Christian or, more rarely, Radical Nu-Bhuddist.

Bush nasty bad bad, unless you're certain people here who'd cry lefty conspiracy if we produced a photo of him murdering and eating a Nun.

Kerry possibly crap, possibly not, but not Bush. Huzzah!

Right wing politics seem to equate with making the poor eat one another while waging war on any vaguely brown skinned oil-producing nation that looks at the US funny. I particularly enjoyed the suggestion that we should rip up Antartica (I forget who that was).

But, as I said once before: Why can't we all just be kind?
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 11:27pm

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MechaForce

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evman101 wrote:

Toot skoot badoot.
You didn't counter anything I said. All you did was say, "Look! Bush says he's going to do a better job! That means he's better!"

I can do the same with Kerry:

Kerry says he will fight terrorism better.

Kerry says he will help the economy.

Kerry says he will make the country safer.

See my point? All you did was point out that Bush SAYS he's going to be all special. I'd like to see things that they've actually done.

I'd also like to point out that hydrogen cars are currently useless. The hydrogen they use takes more energy to manufacture, compared with how much a car using gas makes.
Posted: Thu, 22nd Jul 2004, 11:31pm

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Evman

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ugh. this is to tiring. so what? you basically did the same thing. who cares anymore. lets just agree to disagree because i have debated so much today that my brain is seeping out of my head and onto the keyboard....

Toot skoot badoot.
I didn't say that but.... hehe... funny words... sleep

lol, its funny how i can get people to read very long articles for no reason.
Posted: Fri, 23rd Jul 2004, 2:25am

Post 154 of 163

DigiSm89

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evman101 wrote:

lets just agree to disagree because i have debated so much today that my brain is seeping out of my head and onto the keyboard....
Sure, if your definition of the word debate is to "express point by using blinkers and then rebute others' posts rather than the content of their posts"......

evman101 wrote:


lol, its funny how i can get people to read very long articles for no reason.
This very statement clearly shows that you do not care one bit what other people are stating about their position and are just inclined to thinking Bush is the best president in the world.

You do realize, ever since Bush stepped into office, our economy plumetted. Therefore as a result, foreign exchange rates have been against us, making it even harder to purchase the one and only product we love, ALAM DV, for which was once $50, increased dramtically to ~$90. razz

Heh, CSB's vote must be quite clear now I'm assuming, that is, if CSB could vote wink
Posted: Fri, 23rd Jul 2004, 2:29am

Post 155 of 163

Evman

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i said i would shut up, but. ya know. shut up. i was i dunno... JOKING! some people can't take a joke.

And YOU obviously don't care to read anything because i have said MANY times that i don't like Bush!
Posted: Fri, 23rd Jul 2004, 2:34am

Post 156 of 163

sidewinder

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You do realize, ever since Bush stepped into office, our economy plumetted.
WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!!

Heh, sorry. It's just that this misconception is as bad as the idea that Iraqis flew the 9/11 planes.

The economy began to decline before tBush ook office, and was only in a recession for one quarter of a year back in 2002.

Since then, it has been growing. In fact, it is growing now at a faster rate than it was during the tech bubble.
Posted: Fri, 23rd Jul 2004, 2:40am

Post 157 of 163

DigiSm89

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Did I claim that you liked Bush? Hmm, maybe if you had read the post properly, you would have seen that I was merely stating why I was supporting Kerry and not Bush, even though Sidewinder proved me wrong (see, he debated).

Sidewinder: Thanks for clearing that up. Happens to always be something that stirs around whenever my parents talk stocks. Just curious, about the exchange rates, why so high or low or whatever?
Posted: Fri, 23rd Jul 2004, 2:59am

Post 158 of 163

Evman

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Rating: -1

DigiSm89 wrote:



This very statement clearly shows that you do not care one bit what other people are stating about their position and are just inclined to thinking Bush is the best president in the world.

seems to me like you were saying that i like bush. based on that quote. it says nothing about kerry... neutral
Posted: Fri, 23rd Jul 2004, 3:14am

Post 159 of 163

DigiSm89

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My position is for the opposition. The opposition to Bush is Kerry. Using the transversal postulate in geometry, you can conclude that my position is clearly for Kerry. Besides, you picked the wrong quote. wink

You don't have to like someone to support them. Just because I support Kerry doesn't necessarily mean I like him. My quote suggested you supporting Bush, doesn't say anything about liking.
Posted: Fri, 23rd Jul 2004, 3:25am

Post 160 of 163

Evman

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DigiSm89 wrote:

Did I claim that you liked Bush? Hmm, maybe if you had read the post properly, you would have seen that I was merely stating why I was supporting Kerry and not Bush

in the quote that i put, you said nothing about kerry. you didn't say anything about kerry in your entire post!
Posted: Fri, 23rd Jul 2004, 3:39am

Post 161 of 163

Mr Pencil

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Okay guys... It took me a while, and after searching, I found the parachute pants. Now that I have them, I feel like dancing!

*Mr. Pencil does the MC Hammer Dance*

That felt good. Now I need to repress those bad memories.
Posted: Fri, 23rd Jul 2004, 3:41am

Post 162 of 163

Evman

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*evman101 joins in* Hammer time. We watch too much "I Love the 90s", sorry...
Posted: Fri, 23rd Jul 2004, 8:56am

Post 163 of 163

Xcession

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Right thats it. Politics never goes down well on this forum. I'd have though by now people would have realised that there are chumps on this forum able to display equally moronic extremes for all sides of any arguement.

I suggest you pick your topics more carefully, if you don't want your lovingly crafted opening gambits to spawn these ludicrous intra-charlatan foam-fests.

Political and to a lesser extent religious topics will be shot on site in future.