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President...Who?

Who do you want?

Bush52%[ 28 ]
Kerry48%[ 26 ]

Total Votes : 54

Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 1:53am

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Atom

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I'm not trying to start an argument, but I was just wondering how non-Americans feel about the U.S. Presidential election, if anything.
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 1:55am

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Joshua Davies

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There was some european vote thing on tv earlier. Kerry got about 70% of the vote and I'm 70% sure he is who I would pick as well.
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 2:01am

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Atom

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schwar wrote:

There was some european vote thing on tv earlier. Kerry got about 70% of the vote and I'm 70% sure he is who I would pick as well.
Really? Same here. I'll vote next term. Sadly, hes trailing by like 18 percent right now. Bush will probably win. Its actually kind of discouraging to live in Texas and know that Bush will win the state no matter what. Well, any reason to vote Kerry, schwar? I'm interested in how it affects non-Americans.
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 2:13am

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Marek

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I think my mom is serious about moving to Toronto if Bush wins crazy

I don't particularly like either of them, but I'm on the Kerry side mostly because I'm just not a fan of Bush.
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 3:06am

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averagejoe

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I project Bush wins the popular vote and Kerry wins the electoral college

We shall see though confused
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 3:16am

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Slick

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Wheres Nader! I support the "Anyone but Bush" thing.
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 3:18am

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LtMcMurphy

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more like WHO CARES SHUT UP PLEASE
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 3:49am

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Atom

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atom wrote:

I'm not trying to start an argument,





non-Americans
Ahem. I didnt add the poll, Slick, a mod. did. biggrin
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 4:03am

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averagejoe

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But you did razz razz eek twisted
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 4:24am

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Aculag

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Slick wrote:

I support the "Anyone but Bush" thing.
Ignorance is bliss, right?
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 4:37am

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cantaclaro

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Apparently the anybody but Bush folks would vote an Osama bin Laden/Saddam Hussein ticket before Bush...Idiots.

Canta unsure
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 4:40am

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averagejoe

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Nah, they really want slick Willie back but he is played out biggrin

Until he is the first Gentleman in 2008 wink

Kerry is really a Clinton substitute with a bad after taste twisted
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 5:01am

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ssjaaron

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I am a huge republican, so my vote would go to Bush. Because he liberated the Iraq people. but i respect all of your votes. we all have our reasons. smile
I hope Bush wins wink
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 5:03am

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averagejoe

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I stuck with W this time too.
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 5:13am

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CX3

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Yeah, im going to refrain myself from posting on this, as it would cause an debate...
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 5:16am

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averagejoe

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Wasn't that reason this thread was started?

Oh, wait this was a thread of non-Americans opinions...

Ooops, silly me. I am an American I should not have placed my 2 cents into the thread oink
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 6:22am

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ssj john

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bush bush bush al the way ill vote for anybody as long as its not kerry.
oooooooooo flipped it around how do you kerrinians like that.
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 6:38am

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cantaclaro

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BUSH WINS

www.drudgereport.com

Canta unsure
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 8:13am

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Redhawksrymmer

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Seems like it, with 51% over Kerry's 48%. Although, Ohio isn't counted yet.
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 8:33am

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Andreas

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I'm looking at aftonbladet.se and at 09.19 +1 GMT Bush is leading with 7 votes

Check out this: http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/grafik/0411/usavalet/
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 8:55am

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stqagehanduk

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It appears that Bush has won. God help us all.

Speaking as an ENglishman and non-American (and that wa the point of the thread, after all), I don't know of a single person (in the flesh, as opposed to online) who does not beleive Bush to be a dangerous warmongering corporate puppet. Seriously.

The BBC had a US ELecttion Special Question Time from Miami (Question Time is a weekly politican panel Q&A forum that we have in the UK) and it was interesting to note that if a large section of the audience didn't like what someone was saying they simply tried to shout them down, which, frankly, you rarely see in the UK. I do wonder about the US being the Land of Free Speech after all after watching that ...
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 9:06am

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gent23mj

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Marek wrote:

I think my mom is serious about moving to Toronto if Bush wins crazy

I don't particularly like either of them, but I'm on the Kerry side mostly because I'm just not a fan of Bush.
for better or for worse doesnt seem to be as binding in marriages anymore much less Presidencies, but maybe we could be real American citizens and stick with it through the thick and the thin. Anyone moving out of the country because of the election results is like saying "if I dont get my way I am taking my toys and going home."

As far as non-American opinions, they are definately appreciated, however, they do not matter in the US as far as the election goes. From Bush's win, it seems that through all the propaganda from both parties, all the bickering back and forth, etc, that the American people still want GWB to be the President. I think the rest of the world is still suffering from anti-Bush media, but that is JUST my opinion. Point is that America chose Bush.

It baffles me that American politics is discussed in other countries more than their own.
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 9:54am

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Waser

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too hard to call it now....son of a bitch
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 11:09am

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TAP2

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I'm interested in how it affects non-Americans.
If Bush goes, it's more likely that Blair will go too...

I don't want to offend anyone, but personally, I think war-hungry Bush is a moron... and Kerry's "fresh start" on the war on terror would (or should I say COULD) have probably saved lives, and been more efficient.

I was asking myself why so many Americans were backing Bush, but then again wasn't it about 70% of Americans who thought Vietnam was on the boarder during the cold war? sleep

The President of the United States is the most powerful man on the earth... and I wouldn't describe Bush as 'safe'
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 12:47pm

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Arktic

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Because he [bush] liberated the Iraq people.
That's pure, unadulterated BS.

I'd like you to find me a single Iraqi citizen who whould define themselves as 'liberated'.

Let's hope Ihio does it for Kerry...
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 12:48pm

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Pooky

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Seems like there's some sort of messup in Ohio razz
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 1:08pm

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TAP2

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ffs... I swear Bush is using subliminal messaging on the Americans.

Once again I don't mean to offend anyone, but both the Americans (and the British) are bombarded with BS propoganda. Luckily, many people are intelligent enough to realise this. If anyone reading this thinks the Iraq war was a success then consider yourself a victim of Bush's t.w.a.t propoganda.

In fact, I'll stop saying bad things about the Americans because I CANNOT believe the British voted BLAIR in again after all his lies... and the fuel crisis.

I hope the best for Kerry.
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 1:08pm

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xbreaka

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Arktic wrote:

Because he [bush] liberated the Iraq people.
That's pure, unadulterated BS.

I'd like you to find me a single Iraqi citizen who whould define themselves as 'liberated'.

Let's hope Ihio does it for Kerry...
my dads in iraq and every day people come up to him give him gifts and thank him from liberating them from a dictator who gasses his own people.

So unless you can teleport over there i would STFU
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 1:18pm

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Joshua Davies

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Yeah, and everyday US and UK troops are killed by people who don't want them there as well. You make it sound like everyone is happy they are there which is simply not at all true. Many people may be happy the US are there but many who are not.

Last edited Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 1:24pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 1:22pm

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er-no

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My friends brother was out in Iraq, recently returning from action. He tells me its not at all how the media of the UK make it out, there is lots of peace and some places are liberated - the UK media seems to now concentrate on the death toll.. which, true.. is becoming a quite disgusting figure.

He doesn't feel Iraq will ever be free though, the killing of american and british troops will continue until they leave the country altogether, which would leave a very disorganised country.
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 1:22pm

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Simon K Jones

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Everyone is pleased that Saddam is out of the picture.

The only problem is that due to the botched post-war plan, the country is now entirely overrun with terrorists and fanatics. It's a lawless country now. At least with Saddam you knew the state of things.

I doubt many Iraqis are too happy about a foreign army occupying their soil, either. Unfortunately, the way it went down it looked more like invasion than liberation. It's a long, long road until Iraqis will be in a better position than they were with Saddam. Sure, they don't have to worry about the government coming after them anymore; it's just everybody else they have to worry about now.
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 1:23pm

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Marek

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xbreaka wrote:


my dads in iraq and every day people come up to him give him gifts and thank him from liberating them from a dictator who gasses his own people.

So unless you can teleport over there i would STFU
Yes, but you must remember the reason this war was started in the first place, because apparently Saddam had weapons of mass destruction and was harbouring terrorists.

Still waiting for these missles to show up.
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 1:26pm

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er-no

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Oh, and I think Bush winning is better thing than Kerry winning.
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 1:30pm

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Sollthar

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As I have lost my faith in the average human beings intelligence with reading statements like "bush liberated iraq", I have no doubts that bush will win.
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 1:35pm

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Mr Pencil

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[insert ignorant conservative comment here]




*I voted Bush*
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 2:00pm

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GeeksGoneBad

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You guys have to remember that one man doesn't have the power to take the whole country to war, and one man wouldn't have the power to fix what's been done, so whether it's Bush or Kerry, doesn't really matter, the damage has been done and neither will be able to fix it without more lives lost and more billions of dollars spent. We (the American people) cannot just "up and leave" now, it's way way too late for that... The president is just a figurehead... there's a ton of other people involved in the decision making process... a ton... smile
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 2:09pm

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gent23mj

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schwar wrote:

Yeah, and everyday US and UK troops are killed by people who don't want them there as well. You make it sound like everyone is happy they are there which is simply not at all true. Many people may be happy the US are there but many who are not.
No one likes war lets be real. But the President who sent them over there just got re-elected. I wish people would shutup about "we love our kids....and that mongrel is sending our kids to die"

That is getting old.
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 2:12pm

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gent23mj

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Marek wrote:

xbreaka wrote:


my dads in iraq and every day people come up to him give him gifts and thank him from liberating them from a dictator who gasses his own people.

So unless you can teleport over there i would STFU
Yes, but you must remember the reason this war was started in the first place, because apparently Saddam had weapons of mass destruction and was harbouring terrorists.

Still waiting for these missles to show up.
Marek you are right, but everyone knows that He HAD them, sometime between the last Gulf War and now he had them. Point is now that we went in and we went to finish a job, not quit. Our military is doing as our president does. Finishing what they started, not flip flopping around changing our minds, and yes, Kerry does that.
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 2:22pm

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cantaclaro

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To tell the truth the American Military is all volunteer. So therefore anyone going in knows exactly what "could" happen, the whole point of a Military force is to fight, and when they join, fighting and dying for their country is a possibility. What do they get out of it? Money, work, experience, and an opportunity to make a better life for themselves. Regardless of what you may have heard folks, there is no such thing as a free lunch, in other words everything comes with a price. It would be completely different if there was a draft and the President was sending all of the American youth to die in Iraq for a "great nothing", but that just isn't the case. How successful will we be in Iraq? How successful will we be with Islamo-fascism? I don't know the answer to either of these questions, but I do know that in order to win the world must be United.

Canta unsure
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 2:22pm

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gent23mj

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Tarn wrote:

Everyone is pleased that Saddam is out of the picture.

The only problem is that due to the botched post-war plan, the country is now entirely overrun with terrorists and fanatics. It's a lawless country now. At least with Saddam you knew the state of things.

I doubt many Iraqis are too happy about a foreign army occupying their soil, either. Unfortunately, the way it went down it looked more like invasion than liberation. It's a long, long road until Iraqis will be in a better position than they were with Saddam. Sure, they don't have to worry about the government coming after them anymore; it's just everybody else they have to worry about now.
I agree Tarn, but a very large percentage of the Iraqi people are dillusional about whats going on most of the time. They are too busy jumping on cars they blew up and screaming radical Islam (which we Americans are their sworm enemies).

Regardless of what certain groups of people there THINK we are doing there, we KNOW what we are doing there, and so does Xbreaka's dad. I would be more sensitive to our efforts in Iraq.

Xbreaka, if you gave me a way to do it, I would personally send your dad a gift as well, as I respect what he is doing for the Iraqis.

Please, everyone stop making claims about liberating or not liberating. That hasnt happened yet, we arent done. Anyone who says we SHOULD be done already is dillusional. The point is everyone is CLEAR of our intentions.
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 2:24pm

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gent23mj

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TAP2 wrote:

ffs... I swear Bush is using subliminal messaging on the Americans.
this is just immature
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 2:26pm

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gent23mj

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cantaclaro wrote:

To tell the truth the American Military is all volunteer. So therefore anyone going in knows exactly what "could" happen, the whole point of a Military force is to fight, and when they join, fighting and dying for their country is a possibility. What do they get out of it? Money, work, experience, and an opportunity to make a better life for themselves. Regardless of what you may have heard folks, there is no such thing as a free lunch, in other words everything comes with a price. It would be completely different if there was a draft and the President was sending all of the American youth to die in Iraq for a "great nothing", but that just isn't the case. How successful will we be in Iraq? How successful will we be with Islamo-fascism? I don't know the answer to either of these questions, but I do know that in order to win the world must be United.

Canta unsure
and canta.....(sigh)....some people make it so hard too understand. Thanks for being th voice of reason

JamieC7, do you call removing a brutal dictator and beginning to build the framework for a better more civilized fair country "damage"?

Last edited Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 2:27pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 2:27pm

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Joshua Davies

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gent23mj - That isn't what i was saying at all.

War, by its very nature, is a dirty business and people die. The issue is if we should have been there at all and if they really want us there to "help" and "free" them. I also find it annoying we went ahead and followed you in without the backing of UN.

It would seem that they don't want us there anymore but we need to get the job done and secure all the oil before we leave. Might help if we could find those WMD as well.

The international policies of the Bush adminstration are hated the world over and it effects us more than we would like. The main problem I have with picking Kerry over Bush is that he doesn't seem that amazing either. There isn't enough between them to be able to make a real difference for the better.

Bring back Clinton I say! (if only you could).
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 2:34pm

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gent23mj

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schwar wrote:

gent23mj - That isn't what i was saying at all.

War, by its very nature, is a dirty business and people die. The issue is if we should have been there at all and if they really want us there to "help" and "free" them. I also find it annoying we went ahead and followed you in without the backing of UN.

It would seem that they don't want us there anymore but we need to get the job done and secure all the oil before we leave. Might help if we could find those WMD as well.

The international policies of the Bush adminstration are hated the world over and it effects us more than we would like. The main problem I have with picking Kerry over Bush is that he doesn't seem that amazing either. There isn't enough between them to be able to make a real difference for the better.

Bring back Clinton I say! (if only you could).
If we are securing oil, I think it would be for them, I mean a claim that this is all about oil is somewhat silly. I agree some of the policies are hated but thats the current dilemma of everyone, every country being entitled to their opinion. America re-elected a President who went to war. Not that we want war, but we feel that Bush needs to finish what he started.

Yea, Bliar seems to follow Bush around blindly, but I dont really want to comment on that as it is not my business (since I dont know much about Blair and your govt)

You are right, Bush has his own problems but Kerry proved himself to be someone who would say anything or do anything to get wha he wanted so people just ddnt trust him with Iraq ( in my opinion)

And I would have voted Clinton over Kerry if they were the only two candidates.

It would be really nice if the rest of the world would stop basing their comments and opinions on foreign gossip and support us until we are done, not tear us down while we try to finish.
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 2:36pm

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gent23mj

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Sollthar wrote:

As I have lost my faith in the average human beings intelligence with reading statements like "bush liberated iraq", I have no doubts that bush will win.
Sol, are you knocking someone intelligence beacuse they think differently than you...how rude wink
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 2:38pm

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Hybrid-Halo

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schwar wrote:

Bring back Clinton I say! (if only you could).
AMEN.

I also agree that Kerry isn't amazing enough to sway my opinion from Bush, who I've rather liked (and taken flak for) for a while. However, what some seem to have overlooked is that my like of Bush has nothing to do with politics, as American politics and Politics in general are something I try and avoid as much as possible. Maybe that'll change in time as I'm sure my awareness of world politics is due for a sharp increase...

I don't think any of us brits/europeans have much of a right to say who is best to lead america, we can have an opinion sure... But not living in America I think it'd be quite tough for any of us to have a good opinion, I'm interested in hearing/reading what more US FXhomers views are.
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 2:40pm

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Mantra

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It would be really nice if the rest of the world would stop basing their comments and opinions on foreign gossip and support us until we are done, not tear us down while we try to finish.
When you say 'we', I'm asuming you include Britain, Poland, Japan, Australia, etc.?
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 2:44pm

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Sollthar

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It would be really nice if the rest of the world would stop basing their comments and opinions on foreign gossip and support us until we are done, not tear us down while we try to finish.
The rest of the world hates what you do - thats as simple as it is.


Americas reputation in the rest of the world grows worse and worse.
In most of the german speaking parts of europa, the US are even considered as a "danger" by many citizens.

People in mideurope tend to see the US as an immature child - a very powerful, but completely simpleminded one.


Thats the problem you have. Because that will have it's effects on the long run.
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 2:44pm

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Hybrid-Halo

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Arktic wrote:

Because he [bush] liberated the Iraq people.
That's pure, unadulterated BS.

I'd like you to find me a single Iraqi citizen who whould define themselves as 'liberated'.

Let's hope Ihio does it for Kerry...
Some good friends of mine who are related to the Iraqi royalty and have personally met with some of the runners for President of Iraq (whatever the position is) are now able to safely move back into their homes because Bush helped liberate their country, which is undeniably still in a crossover state. But I'd say the country is well is on the way and will eventually be better than it was under Hussein's rule.

The vast Majority of Iraqi's are pleased that Hussein is gone. The just want the Americans out too, which is fair enough.

sollthar wrote:

The rest of the world hates what you do - thats as simple as it is.
In your opinion. Mine is quite different, I'm not in total agreement with everything america does, as often it seems to be stuck in that "let's police the world" malarky that us european countries we were in when we were young.
I think alot of hatred for the US is unfounded and often ridiculous or uneducated as well as being a large reason as to why so many people seem to see hating them as acceptable, if i was to Hate muslims because parts of their religion are more or less totally anti-america to a pro-terrorism extent wouldn't you class me as a fool? I think you would.

Let's see if Bush changes before we damn him, people also said Reagan was a fool, and they were wrong.

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Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 2:45pm

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Sollthar

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Sol, are you knocking someone intelligence beacuse they think differently than you...how rude
Heh, yeah. I'm in a rude type of mood... BRING EM ON! smile
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 3:37pm

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Simon K Jones

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Crikey, there's some curious things being said in here. Let's see know...

gent23mj wrote:

I agree Tarn, but a very large percentage of the Iraqi people are dillusional about whats going on most of the time. They are too busy jumping on cars they blew up and screaming radical Islam
Wow. Talk about a misinformed generalisation. I really can't quite believe you wrote that. That kind of dismissive and superior attitude towards a foreign culture is what causes a lot of the friction.

gent23mj wrote:

It would be really nice if the rest of the world would stop basing their comments and opinions on foreign gossip and support us until we are done, not tear us down while we try to finish
There are other countries involved too, including my own. I get my news sources from all over the place. What exactly do you mean by 'foreign gossip'? Is American news the only news that has the truth? Every source is warped in some way, the only way of getting a fair picture is to look at as many different sources as possible.

hybrid-halo wrote:

I don't think any of us brits/europeans have much of a right to say who is best to lead america, we can have an opinion sure... But not living in America I think it'd be quite tough for any of us to have a good opinion
This is something that gets said a lot. "What right do you have to air your opinion when you're not even American/don't live here/etc?"

It's a pretty small-minded viewpoint. Sure, it's a different country. But it's the same planet - we all live on the same ball of rock. What happens in one country, especially one as large and powerful as the USA, affects all of us. Therefore we have just as much right to speak up as anybody.

In the modern age, country borders really don't mean much, when you can fly around the world in a couple of hours and kill someone by pressing a button on the other side of the planet.

hybrid-halo wrote:

I think alot of hatred for the US is unfounded and often ridiculous or uneducated
You're a bit out there. For a start, few of us hate "the US", and we certainly don't hate Americans. I grew up loving the USA, wanted to live and work there when I got older. It was an inspiring and exciting place.

What I don't like is the US government, and its foreign policy. That's something entirely different.

Anyone that blanket hated 'Americans' I would indeed class as a fool.


And forgetting foreign policy for a moment, my main concern is actually something else. Since Bush came to power (and it very possibly it started quite a while before that, but I just wasn't paying so much attention back then) I've seen the US government move further and further away from the ideals that the country was founded upon, and which the previous and great Presidents have led by.

The USA should be the shining beacon on the hill, leading and inspiring the world by example. No matter which way you look at it, or who you support, that simply isn't the case anymore. And that makes me sad.

Last edited Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 3:40pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 3:39pm

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Waser

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Though it's still not over.....I have to be honest. I think Bush has won...... confused

I have three options right now:
HOPE that Kerry has somehow won Ohio

form a "project mayhem" terrorist group

Leave the country.

I'm doing number one, and am leaning towards number 2 surprised

Also, I think this may be the final blow to dismantle the democratic party. If Kerry fights this and looses, the democrats are finished. great day this is sad
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 4:17pm

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cantaclaro

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It is over.

Kerry to concede at 1:00pm EST

www.drudgereport.com

Canta unsure
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 5:00pm

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Aculag

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Oh, John Kerry. Your campaign is rooting for you and rooting for you, declaring victory at the slightest hint that it might turn around, and then you go and quit. The true Vietnam war hero way.

Actually, I have a bit more respect for Kerry now that he did what he did, instead of dragging it out and asking for re-counts and such.
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 7:00pm

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gent23mj

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Tarn wrote:

Crikey, there's some curious things being said in here. Let's see know...

gent23mj wrote:

I agree Tarn, but a very large percentage of the Iraqi people are dillusional about whats going on most of the time. They are too busy jumping on cars they blew up and screaming radical Islam
Wow. Talk about a misinformed generalisation. I really can't quite believe you wrote that. That kind of dismissive and superior attitude towards a foreign culture is what causes a lot of the friction.

gent23mj wrote:

It would be really nice if the rest of the world would stop basing their comments and opinions on foreign gossip and support us until we are done, not tear us down while we try to finish
There are other countries involved too, including my own. I get my news sources from all over the place. What exactly do you mean by 'foreign gossip'? Is American news the only news that has the truth? Every source is warped in some way, the only way of getting a fair picture is to look at as many different sources as possible.

hybrid-halo wrote:

I don't think any of us brits/europeans have much of a right to say who is best to lead america, we can have an opinion sure... But not living in America I think it'd be quite tough for any of us to have a good opinion
This is something that gets said a lot. "What right do you have to air your opinion when you're not even American/don't live here/etc?"

It's a pretty small-minded viewpoint. Sure, it's a different country. But it's the same planet - we all live on the same ball of rock. What happens in one country, especially one as large and powerful as the USA, affects all of us. Therefore we have just as much right to speak up as anybody.

In the modern age, country borders really don't mean much, when you can fly around the world in a couple of hours and kill someone by pressing a button on the other side of the planet.

hybrid-halo wrote:

I think alot of hatred for the US is unfounded and often ridiculous or uneducated
You're a bit out there. For a start, few of us hate "the US", and we certainly don't hate Americans. I grew up loving the USA, wanted to live and work there when I got older. It was an inspiring and exciting place.

What I don't like is the US government, and its foreign policy. That's something entirely different.

Anyone that blanket hated 'Americans' I would indeed class as a fool.


And forgetting foreign policy for a moment, my main concern is actually something else. Since Bush came to power (and it very possibly it started quite a while before that, but I just wasn't paying so much attention back then) I've seen the US government move further and further away from the ideals that the country was founded upon, and which the previous and great Presidents have led by.

The USA should be the shining beacon on the hill, leading and inspiring the world by example. No matter which way you look at it, or who you support, that simply isn't the case anymore. And that makes me sad.
Tarn, forgive me, but I generalized on purpose because the people that are running around like chickens with their heads cut off, do so because they think we are there for the sake of being there, or they dont have a clue at all. In my opinion, the ones who really understand what we are doing, and do not agree, will make their voice heard in a civilized way. I dont want to sterotype Islam, or appear superior, so forgive me if I did.

"This is something that gets said a lot. "What right do you have to air your opinion when you're not even American/don't live here/etc?""

I agree but this isnt what I meant. That is usually said by someone who is being pissy for no reason. What I meant was that I get tired of watching anti-Bush always attitudes when it they are uninformed. If they are not uninformed, then I am not talking to them. I do appreciate your comment that we are on the same planet, which is the EXACT reason we as Americans feel that our military is equipped to be able to go to Iraq and help the Iraqi people if indeed we believe that is right, SO I would say that in a way, we are trying to be leaders where we can. If you think that we should be a beacon on a hill, do you THEN disagree with the decision to go liberate and look for WMD in a country that is oppressed, and after doing so, allow our nation to be divided and our economy to suffer so that someone else (Iraq) might be able to enjoy the same freedoms as we do in the future. I would say that there IS a bit of light there. We may not have done it in the fashion some wanted it to be done, but we did nonetheless. And beyond all the hype and propaganda, we Americans wish the Iraqis well and hope for their future democracy and freedom. And not directed to you Tarn, but anyone else who agrees that we should be a shining beacon on a hill, then I would ask that you not to make blatent efforts to throw mud on it. And remember that a follower cant tell a leader how to lead (at least not by its definition)

As far as hating the Americans comment you made, I dont think that you guys do, especially from what i have seen on these forums from you. I was referring the few outspokens who just like to hate Bush because he bases his values and decisions on his faith (Christianity) just because they dont agree with that faith. Anyone who criticizes someone for acting on what they believe 100% and not waivering when criticism comes I would indeed class as a fool. It takes more integrity and "dignitude" (Bushism biggrin) to stand strong on your decisions and values than to change as the voters change. This is why I voted Bush, no other reason. And I think America valued strength and consitency, and Kerry just appeared more inconsistent than Bush

I think we move away from the foundations of our countrysometimes, but in both directions. While many Republicans view "God's way" as the way (which is a bias whether it is right or wrong) and Democrats misenterpret the Constitution by thinking that me praying before a football game violates their right to not have to pray (which is a mere misinterpretation;if you dont wanna pray, DONT PRAY). The founding fathers were mainly Christian. They viewed it as ultimate reality while knowing that not everyone would, giving them the right to not accept what they didnt want to. Today we are so split on religious issues and the consitution, but I wouldnt imply that GWB is responsible for carrying us away from the foundation our forefathers set. He is simply on the same page with the majority of the founding fathers. He sees "God's way" as the way, he isnt trying to PUSH his way on everyone else like a brainwashed religious fundamentalist, he really thinks that what he believes is the ultimate truth, and from the outcome of the election, the majority of Americans seem to be ok with that, whether the rest of the world does or doesnt.

It really concerns me that there is a aimless seeded hate for America wherever it may be. Because not all Americans are cocky, arrogant selfish people as some people seem to label us.

I hope that clears up some of my comments from earlier and I'm sorry if I offended anyone.
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 7:13pm

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gent23mj

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Mantra wrote:

It would be really nice if the rest of the world would stop basing their comments and opinions on foreign gossip and support us until we are done, not tear us down while we try to finish.
When you say 'we', I'm asuming you include Britain, Poland, Japan, Australia, etc.?
I am including anyone who is involved with the effort, whether in Iraq or those who support the efforts worldwide.
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 7:28pm

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ZukoVega

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The main problem I have with picking Kerry over Bush is that he doesn't seem that amazing either. There isn't enough between them to be able to make a real difference for the better.
True - and because of the electoral college and the fact that I live in Massachusetts (John Kerry's state) and not a swing state my vote wouldn't have made a difference in the outcome of the election so I was able to vote for the party that I wanted ... Libertarian "...a foreign policy of non-intervention, peace, and free trade..."

P.S. I know this thread was for the "non-Americans" response but I thought I'd add my 2ยข since everybody else was doing it... biggrin
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 7:33pm

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Simon K Jones

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gent23mj wrote:

It really concerns me that there is a aimless seeded hate for America wherever it may be. Because not all Americans are cocky, arrogant selfish people as some people seem to label us.
Thanks for clearing up your comments, gent23mj. I get where you're coming from properly now. smile

I was pleased to see your last comment there, too, because something that has been particularly bothering me recently is when we (ie, non-Americans) raise our concerns and certain Americans respond with "well, why the hell should we care what you guys in some crappy little country think?" This, I'm sure you'll agree, isn't exactly a healthy or helpful attitude to have. So it's good to see a more considered response.
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 8:05pm

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ZukoVega

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Interesting ... right now the poll on this topic and its forum members seem to accurately reflect that of the entire U.S.



But where is my guy, Michael Badnarik, in this poll? Is this voter intimidation?! unsure
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 8:10pm

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gent23mj

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Tarn wrote:

I was pleased to see your last comment there, too, because something that has been particularly bothering me recently is when we (ie, non-Americans) raise our concerns and certain Americans respond with "well, why the hell should we care what you guys in some crappy little country think?" This, I'm sure you'll agree, isn't exactly a healthy or helpful attitude to have. So it's good to see a more considered response.
Agreed. If no one showed any concern about the U.S. it would actually scare me. Kinda like...."It's quiet....a little too quiet." smile
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 8:33pm

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Evman

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I'm just glad kerry lost.

JOHN MCCAIN FOR PRESIDENT!
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 9:36pm

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fertesz

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Wow, that's some interesting topic eek

As for 'hating Americans' and similar attitudes: it's all just stupid. What does 'American' mean? A guy that lives in America - quite simple. But it does not mean that he has certain attributes or something like that. Sure - sometimes we generalize, but being serious about any stereotype is just silly. 'Americans' are a (large smile ) group of people that share same space and same country. But you can't say (well - it's stupid) that "Americans are aggresive, they want to rule Iraq and it's oil, bla, bla, bla". It's really depressing that there are actually people who think like that (even though I don't think there is a lot of SO dumb people, sharing what I wrote before, at least I hope so wink ).

Tarn wrote:

"well, why the hell should we care what you guys in some crappy little country think?"
Yap, that's clear example of stupidity and ignorance (not Tarn of course - this hipothetical American you mentioned here razz ). America is no utopia - idiots are everywhere cool Shame if they can have any influence on our point of view, but as was mentioned, media can distort it, so we end up kind of bemused. We meet idiots every single day I believe, those in media or politics are just far more dangerous.

As for Kerry vs Bush - I didn't take take part in this pool (even though It's aimed at those like me - I'm Polish, so clearly non-american biggrin ), because I'm just not sure. I have an idea, but I don't know about either of them as much as I would like to in case I would be voting. It's safer to keep my thoughts to myself this time wink

But as the election is over - congratulations George wink
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 9:59pm

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xbreaka

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Aculag wrote:

Oh, John Kerry. Your campaign is rooting for you and rooting for you, declaring victory at the slightest hint that it might turn around, and then you go and quit. The true Vietnam war hero way.

Actually, I have a bit more respect for Kerry now that he did what he did, instead of dragging it out and asking for re-counts and such.
why must you een post here when all you say is unfounded retardedness, john kerry conceded because he lost he didnt want to discrace his party by fighting it and causing more hoopla.

Another thing i find it funny how people blame every problem on bush, bush is not hitler hes not the reason everything happens iraq was his doing, but for example the budget, congress makes it and bush either signs it or doesnt unlike state govenors bush cannot "edit" the budget thats submitted to him.

Another favorite(bush isnt giving our troops the body armor they need)
Once again he doesnt decide this the army supply corps are given a ammount of money and tasked with buying the stuff, bush doesnt go through a catelog and say lets get this but no body armor. Fortunely the air force has a great supply office so my dad is getting everything he needs,

At LSA Anaconda aka mortorville where my dad is stationed 93% of the base voted for bush and most guys including him are not mad that they are over there he signed up for it and in the contract it says you may be called upon in times of war. Atleast thats what my dad said over the phone.

The war is being also blown way out of proportion we have lost 1000 guys and secured most of the country comparing it to vietnam is simply retarded

60,000 deaths vs 1000 deaths the iraq war has been very light in terms of other wars fought abroad.


Well there my rant
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 9:59pm

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Waser

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evman101 wrote:

I'm just glad kerry lost.

JOHN MCCAIN FOR PRESIDENT!
I used to like John McCain, but after the campaign its apparent he's a self serving ass jerk. surprised

today was one of the most depressing I have had in a looooooooong time. People were crying at my school, and I almost did as well. I had my camera with me all night last night, and right now I am working on a mini doc about election night.....NIGHT! Look for it soon surprised

anyway, I have thought about what good will come from Bush's election, and it's not that bad. More dead Iraqis, more money spent on the war, money taken out of public schools, and the line between religion and government shall be further blurred! YES! The next 4 years are going to ROCK.

Last edited Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 10:11pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 10:11pm

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ssj john

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[quote="gent23mj"]

Marek wrote:

xbreaka wrote:


my dads in iraq and every day people come up to him give him gifts and thank him from liberating them from a dictator who gasses his own people.

So unless you can teleport over there i would STFU
Yes, but you must remember the reason this war was started in the first place, because apparently Saddam had weapons of mass destruction and was harbouring terrorists.

Still waiting for these missles to show up.
here is the deal with the whole missileis of mass destruction. the firsat bush had intel that iraq had weapons of mass destruction. and he did. so the U.N. told him to get rid of them. so he did (or said he did. MEaning saddam) Then clinton also had intel that he had weapons of mas detruction and that intel was moved to bush jr. BUt bush jr. decide sense if iraq had nuclear weapons or weapons of mass detruction wich he did ( because he used them on his own peeople.) that he would be a threat to the united states so bush acted on that espacally after 9/11. know heres my opinion on france and germany and russia all the countries that didnt support us in librating iraq I DONT BLAME YAH france for example didnt need to go to war because if iraq had w.o.m.d. (weapons yadeyadeyada) they wouldnt bomb france they would go and bopmb th U.S. so that just shows how loyal of an allie france. (not that we needed there help)
but anyways yeah for bush i feel safe him being president
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 10:12pm

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xbreaka

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france also was making a great deal of moneyt of iraq with the oil for food program
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 10:14pm

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Arktic

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xbreka wrote:

The war is being also blown way out of proportion we have lost 1000 guys and secured most of the country
Only 1000? Gee, that's ok then, that'll just be the lives of 1000 families ruined then. Great!

And what about the 14219 to 16352 Iraqi civilians who have been reported dead by the millitary intervention? Only 14-16 thousand? Well, they're probably better off having been 'liberated' then. Hooray!

Last edited Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 10:14pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 10:14pm

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GeeksGoneBad

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gent23mj wrote:

JamieC7, do you call removing a brutal dictator and beginning to build the framework for a better more civilized fair country "damage"?
No, that's not what I meant, and don't put words in my mouth... but I do call the death of over 100,000 people damage, yes... and what I meant was that not one man, Kerry or Bush, will ever be able to undo that. So it's not like if Kerry WAS voted as President, that the problems in Iraq would have just been solved, like the Kerry supporters would like to believe, it's just not that easy...
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 10:28pm

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ssj john

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xbreaka wrote:

france also was making a great deal of moneyt of iraq with the oil for food program
amen i rest my case
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 10:32pm

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ssj john

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Arktic wrote:

xbreka wrote:

The war is being also blown way out of proportion we have lost 1000 guys and secured most of the country
Only 1000? Gee, that's ok then, that'll just be the lives of 1000 families ruined then. Great!

And what about the 14219 to 16352 Iraqi civilians who have been reported dead by the millitary intervention? Only 14-16 thousand? Well, they're probably better off having been 'liberated' then. Hooray!
dude you also have to realize 1000 people is very little thats the least amount of people lost in a war. Campare it to veitnam or ww2 when we lost way more 10,000. 1000 out of the 200 million people that live in the united states know thats very little amount. But im not saying its ok that we lost 100 people im yes that sucks for those family that lost those soldiers but when you compare it to other wars its not that bad.

Last edited Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 10:38pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 10:32pm

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Arktic

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xbreaka was wrong when he wrote:

france also was making a great deal of moneyt of iraq with the oil for food program
Kofi Annan denied that rumour, and there has been little evidence to substantiate it.
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 10:33pm

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Arktic

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dude you also have to realize 1000 people is very little
One life lost needlessly is too many.

To say that 1000 is 'very little' is just absurd.
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 10:35pm

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ssj john

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[quote="Arktic"]
And what about the 14219 to 16352 Iraqi civilians who have been reported dead by the millitary intervention? Only 14-16 thousand? Well, they're probably better off having been 'liberated' then. Hooray!
or you can compare that to the 20,000 to 30,000 that would have died anyways if suddam still were in power. Then you can compare that to the 100,000 to 200,000 people that could perish if al quida decides to bring the war to or front door ( meaning american soil)
edit: if you remeber al quida did say that 9/11 is but a taste of whats to come. if thats so then bush has got to do everything he can to stop them where they live and plan.

Last edited Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 10:40pm; edited 2 times in total.

Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 10:37pm

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ssj john

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Arktic wrote:

dude you also have to realize 1000 people is very little
One life lost needlessly is too many.

To say that 1000 is 'very little' is just absurd.
if read the rest i was comparing it to the amount we have lost in other war. in that context 100 is a very little amount COMPARED to the 40,000 lost in ww2
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 10:39pm

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Arktic

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if iraq had w.o.m.d. (weapons yadeyadeyada) they wouldnt bomb france they would go and bopmb th U.S.
compare that to the 20,000 to 30,000 that would have died anyways if suddam still were in power
100,000 to 200,000 people that could perish if al quida decides to bring the war to or front door
And the last time Iraq used those WMD's on America was when? The last time Iraq even attacked the USA? What? You mean Iraq has NEVER attacked the US? My word, that's odd, because I thought they would have used all of their WMD's on the USA right away!

And as for the 100,000 that al qaeda would kill - where's the evidence for that? There's been one major atrocity in the past few years, killing 3000. I know that's a huge ammount, but you've just made those figures up. Go away and look at the facts before you presume al qaeda would kill 200,000 Americans....
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 10:41pm

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Arktic

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if read the rest i was comparing it to the amount we have lost in other war. in that context 100 is a very little amount COMPARED to the 40,000 lost in ww2
Comparing WW2 and Gulf War 2 is daft.

WW2 had a clear and defined reason for starting - Hitler invaded foreign soil, and so we went to war (well, some of us did, the US waited for a while).

Gulf War 2, on the other hand - remind me, where did Saddam invade? What's that? He didn't? Hooray.
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 10:45pm

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ssj john

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ok so there is no way to tell how many they will kill but there is evidence that they are going to countiue there attacks on the us AND THAT THEY WERE GOING TO GET WORSE. AND THERES OBVIUOSLY A THREAT FROM IRAQ OR BUSH WOULDNT HAVE GONE TO WAR. He beleive that saddam Heussain had links to al qiada which there is no evidence that he didnt.
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 10:46pm

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ssj john

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Arktic wrote:

if read the rest i was comparing it to the amount we have lost in other war. in that context 100 is a very little amount COMPARED to the 40,000 lost in ww2
Comparing WW2 and Gulf War 2 is daft.

WW2 had a clear and defined reason for starting - Hitler invaded foreign soil, and so we went to war (well, some of us did, the US waited for a while).

Gulf War 2, on the other hand - remind me, where did Saddam invade? What's that? He didn't? Hooray.

forgetting why we went in for the war in iraq ww2 had a totaly different resaon for starting then iraq did.
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 10:48pm

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Arktic

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He beleive that saddam Heussain had links to al qiada which there is no evidence that he didnt
Isn't the US the proud owner of a justice system based on the principle of "Innocent Until Proven Guilty"?

I have no evidence that you're not liked to al qaeda! The US army might come a-knocking at your door sometime....

Last edited Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 10:48pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 10:48pm

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Waser

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Oh yeah, I forgot that bush is going to get new judges appointed, and will pass an AMMENDMENT to ban gay marriage. YAY!!!!! I miss second class citizens!
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 10:48pm

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Pooky

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ssj john wrote:

1000 people is very little

Arktic wrote:

14219 to 16352 Iraqi civilians who have been reported dead
And so, what did these people die for in the first place?

WMD? No, never found any.

To "Liberate them"? No. Sure, Saddam is gone, but he was going to go anyway.

Oil? No, because if that's why, how come the gas prices are so high?
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 10:49pm

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ssj john

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but i wil admit that there are other and better ways gerogie could have handled this .
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 10:49pm

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Waser

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It take allotta oil to run the death star you know.....
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 10:50pm

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Arktic

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but there is evidence that they are going to countiue there attacks on the us
Most of that information is false, and comes from al qaeda themselves, designed to spread fear and panic in the west. Very little hard evidence has ever been found of future attacks in the US or the UK.

(Sorry for the multiple posts guys!)
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 10:51pm

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Waser

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Arktic.....I have a sneaking suspicion that you hate freedom
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 10:53pm

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Arktic

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Waser -

I'm not from the US, so clearly I despise all free countries.
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 10:54pm

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Waser

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at least you admit it, unlike those baby eating france people.
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 10:57pm

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ssj john

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Arktic wrote:

He beleive that saddam Heussain had links to al qiada which there is no evidence that he didnt
Isn't the US the proud owner of a justice system based on the principle of "Innocent Until Proven Guilty"?

I have no evidence that you're not liked to al qaeda! The US army might come a-knocking at your door sometime....

well bush did have intel that suddam hussein had links but the whole proven untial guilty. Well if your caught in the act of lets say murdering someone. You still go to jail but your not sentences to lifetime of prison until you rproven absolutay guilty. the take you into prison before you are officaily pronounced guilty because just in case you are really guilty they cant having you killing more people. so lets say saddam has link so they have to take him to jail before he has anymore links with terrorist. but sense saddam is tyhe frickin leader of iraq we cant just walts in and take him captive so we go to war. so that leads us to Wait didnt we go to war because of weapons of mass detruction? yes but see if saddy has weapons of mass detruction and has al quida links they can use him to bomb us.
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 10:58pm

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xbreaka

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the judges have to approved by congress, dont make comments like that if you dont even know how our government works,
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 10:59pm

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ssj john

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pooky wrote:

ssj john wrote:

1000 people is very little

Arktic wrote:

14219 to 16352 Iraqi civilians who have been reported dead
And so, what did these people die for in the first place?

WMD? No, never found any.

To "Liberate them"? No. Sure, Saddam is gone, but he was going to go anyway.

Oil? No, because if that's why, how come the gas prices are so high?
pooky i would comment on your commentsd but this would lead to a whole nother chapter of arguments and frankly im getting tired of typing so thats that
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 11:02pm

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Arktic

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well bush did have intel that suddam hussein had links
All links which the UK government have denied the existance of, even though we supported the war.

I would quote your other post, but it's drivel. Essentially, you've said that because you think that Saddam was in the wrong (even with no acctual evidence), the US was justified to wage an illegal war. Well done - another triumph of US foreign policy!

Your analogy is also flawed in that in your example, the person was caught in the act. Tell me, what was ol' Saddam caught in the act of? Possibly having some WMD which have miraculously vanished? Great!
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 11:07pm

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ssj john

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i can see two ways this could turn out in the future

way 1- us pulls out of iraq because everybody hates us and if all were doing there is occupying then were not doing anygood. iraq turns out to be a faliure just like veitnam.

way 2- us sticks to there plan and iraq recovers and everybody that spoke agianst the war eats there words. And i honestly do think that iraq will turn out better sooner or later. That all the deaths are worth it and btw way i think it was pooky who said this correct me if im wrong but :To "Liberate them"? No. Sure, Saddam is gone, but he was going to go anyway. whos to say suddam was going anywys there was no sign of a "revolution" maybe he would have gone becuase of old age?
whos to say is sons would have taken over.
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 11:09pm

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ssj john

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[quote="Arktic"]
Your analogy is also flawed in that in your example, the person was caught in the act. Tell me, what was ol' Saddam caught in the act of? Possibly having some WMD which have miraculously vanished? Great!
saddam was caught in the act of having links to al quida duh
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 11:11pm

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ssj john

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bush is awsome know im going to go find me a life.
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 11:12pm

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Arktic

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If you can only see 2 possible outcomes, then you must be a lot more daft that I originally though...

There's maybe a way number 3 - the US and UK troops pull out, having started the process of democratic elections for a new government. The UN bring in peacekeeping forces whilst the Iraqis develop a new social infrastructure. Then everyone's happy....
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 11:13pm

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xbreaka

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when saddam launch that scud at kuwait in the first 2 days of the war that broke the un reolution anyway
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 11:14pm

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stqagehanduk

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I really really REALLY think a lot of people should avoid analogy - nine times of ten its specious and simply replaces direct argument.

Bush weilds an INCREDIBLE amount of power - if he didn't, what would be the point of the job? And if he isn't ultimately responsible for say, eg, the budget deficit or Veteran's benefits being slashed or any of the other things the Right will claim he isn't doing even as he guilelessy does them, then who is?

The US invaded Iraq on a false premise, ireespective of Saddam's overthrow being a good or bad thing, making up arguments after the event doesn't change that.

America will become the world's first Post-Democratic Capitalist Feudalism: Discuss.
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 11:15pm

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ssj john

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Arktic wrote:

If you can only see 2 possible outcomes, then you must be a lot more daft that I originally though...

There's maybe a way number 3 - the US and UK troops pull out, having started the process of democratic elections for a new government. The UN bring in peacekeeping forces whilst the Iraqis develop a new social infrastructure. Then everyone's happy....

what can the un forces do that U.S. cant

and what does daft mean anyways im not that enlightened in british lingo
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 11:17pm

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ssj john

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stqagehanduk wrote:

I really really REALLY think a lot of people should avoid analogy - nine times of ten its specious and simply replaces direct argument.

Bush weilds an INCREDIBLE amount of power - if he didn't, what would be the point of the job? And if he isn't ultimately responsible for say, eg, the budget deficit or Veteran's benefits being slashed or any of the other things the Right will claim he isn't doing even as he guilelessy does them, then who is?
congress is biggrin
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 11:17pm

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Waser

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I think anything good that happened in the past 4 years was bush's doing, and anything that went wrong was Kerry, or possible France's/The UN's fault
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 11:19pm

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Arktic

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saddam was caught in the act of having links to al quida duh
Oh yeah, silly me - those links that have been denied by experts and the government in the USA and UK alike! Of course, there were real links there, and not just ones based on very sketchy intelligence or made up at all!

That's probably why Donald Rumsfeld, when questioned about "connections between Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden" said :

Donald Rumsfeld wrote:

To my knowledge, I have not seen any strong, hard evidence that links the two,"
(Read the whole story here.)

when saddam launch that scud at kuwait in the first 2 days of the war that broke the un reolution anyway
If we're bothered about people breaking UN laws, hadn't we better address the issue of an ILLEGAL WAR? Or maybe I'm just being silly, because clearly international law only applies to little countries like Iraq, and not big ones like the USA.

Last edited Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 11:21pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 11:20pm

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xbreaka

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simply put the UN is a joke, resultutions takie forever to get pushed through and one stubborn country like france can cause a mass cluster fuck of the UN.

The un has a record of doing this way to late, the then league of nations didnt delclare war on hitler until he had taken over all of europe but france and england.
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 11:20pm

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stqagehanduk

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I see ... congress. So what's the point of the president, exactly? So it wasn't his idea to go to war then, was it? "Congress" made him do it?
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 11:22pm

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Arktic

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the then league of nations didnt delclare war on hitler until he had taken over all of europe but france and england
I think you need to read up on your history my son....
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 11:35pm

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Sollthar

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It's probably written like that in american history books Arktic wink
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 11:37pm

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stqagehanduk

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Thank God for Sargeant Rock and Easy Company or we'd all be driving German cars and eating sushi ... oh, wait ...
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 11:38pm

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ssj john

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xbreaka wrote:

simply put the UN is a joke, resultutions takie forever to get pushed through and one stubborn country like france can cause a mass cluster fudge of the UN.

The un has a record of doing this way to late, the then league of nations didnt delclare war on hitler until he had taken over all of europe but france and england.
bush can declare war but congress has to aprove it
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 11:40pm

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ssj john

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Arktic wrote:

saddam was caught in the act of having links to al quida duh
Oh yeah, silly me - those links that have been denied by experts and the government in the USA and UK alike! Of course, there were real links there, and not just ones based on very sketchy intelligence or made up at all!

That's probably why Donald Rumsfeld, when questioned about "connections between Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden" said :

Donald Rumsfeld wrote:

To my knowledge, I have not seen any strong, hard evidence that links the two,"
(Read the whole story here.)

when saddam launch that scud at kuwait in the first 2 days of the war that broke the un reolution anyway
If we're bothered about people breaking UN laws, hadn't we better address the issue of an ILLEGAL WAR? Or maybe I'm just being silly, because clearly international law only applies to little countries like Iraq, and not big ones like the USA.
can you find me a copy of the law that outlines that iraq was an illigal war.
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 11:42pm

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GeeksGoneBad

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stqagehanduk wrote:

I see ... congress. So what's the point of the president, exactly? So it wasn't his idea to go to war then, was it? "Congress" made him do it?
Actually after 9/11, everybody in the country wanted to go to war. So at that time it was the president, the military, and just about every other citizen... It's only now that people have forgotten that we were attacked first, and support has dwindled. Terrorists have no "Country" to attack, so we go after those who harbor and train terrorists, and if try to tell me that Iraq doesn't breed terrorists, then you're not paying attention. They are savages that behead innocent victims, that right there should be enough motive to want to eradicate terrorists.

You'd think differently if it was your country that was attacked...
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 11:42pm

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stqagehanduk

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So does the the fact Bush has to railroad congress, much as our own beloved leader has to convince both houses, somehow absolve him of having made the decision in the first place?

It just seems to me that there's been an argument that there are things he has no power over and therefore no responsibility for, and I have some difficulty accepting that.
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 11:47pm

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Evman

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guys, guys, guys. Calm down. Maybe we can break the curse of the magical forumla -

Fxhome + politics = disaster

All we have to do is to act responsibly and not result to throwing insults at each other. Argue about the issues, not personal stuff.

This started out as an intelligent thread, and I'd like to see it go further, but it'll be locked if you don't cool it. Its inevitable.
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 11:51pm

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stqagehanduk

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"You'd think differently if it was your country that was attacked..."

Oh, please. America's like a teenager with its first crush who thinks its the only one who's ever been in love ... During the 70s we in the UK suffered a sustained, concerted mainland attack by the IRA, who were, I might add, getting a hell of a lot of support from the US. Perhaps we should have invaded you?

And as for countries that execute the innocent - Death Penalty, anyone? AMerica;s the one supposedly enlightened democracy I can think of that's still happy to send children to the Electric Chair.
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 11:54pm

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Arktic

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can you find me a copy of the law that outlines that iraq was an illigal war.
Yes. The Charter Of the United Nations. More specifically, chapter VII.

Article 39 states that "The Security Council shall determine the existence of any threat to the peace, breach of the peace, or act of aggression and shall make recommendations, or decide what measures shall be taken"

As the Security Council had not decided what action was to be taken, nor authorised any, the war was illegal. As Kofi Annan said "I have indicated it was not in conformity with the UN charter. From our point of view and from the charter point of view it was illegal".
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 11:56pm

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Waser

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but Arktic! THE UN ARE FRENCH!!!

end of sarcasm
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 11:57pm

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ssj john

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stqagehanduk wrote:

"You'd think differently if it was your country that was attacked..."

Oh, please. America's like a teenager with its first crush who thinks its the only one who's ever been in love ... During the 70s we in the UK suffered a sustained, concerted mainland attack by the IRA, who were, I might add, getting a hell of a lot of support from the US. Perhaps we should have invaded you?[\quote] maybe you should' ve but you couldnt have. lol jk

And as for countries that execute the innocent - Death Penalty, anyone? AMerica;s the one supposedly enlightened democracy I can think of that's still happy to send children to the Electric Chair.
last time i checked there werent many children murdering people and thats one of the only ways you get sent to the eletric chair.
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 11:57pm

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CX3

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They are savages that behead innocent victims, that right there should be enough motive to want to eradicate terrorists.
That's Ignorant. Yes they have some derranged people over there but so does every country. We had the Oklahoma City Bomber and the Columbine kids to name a few. Does that mean that Americans are crazy and need to be eradicated as well. You cant label a whole country as being savages.
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 11:58pm

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stqagehanduk

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Perhaps Bush should have claimed that Saddam was hoarding fine wines and cheeses to entice them into the Colaition of the Willing ...
Posted: Wed, 3rd Nov 2004, 11:59pm

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GeeksGoneBad

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the death penalty... there's a whole 'nother topic... but it's not designed to kill the innocent, only the guilty... and only the guilty of brutal crimes. You cannot compare that to dragging an innocent reporter out of his car and videotapping his beheading so the world can see how brutal and savage you are. That's just rediculous.
Posted: Thu, 4th Nov 2004, 12:00am

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Evman

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JamieC7 wrote:

the death penalty... there's a whole 'nother topic... but it's not designed to kill the innocent, only the guilty... and only the guilty of brutal crimes. You cannot compare that to dragging an innocent reporter out of his car and videotapping his beheading so the world can see how brutal and savage you are. That's just rediculous.
well put.
Posted: Thu, 4th Nov 2004, 12:00am

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ssj john

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Arktic wrote:

can you find me a copy of the law that outlines that iraq was an illigal war.
Yes. The Charter Of the United Nations. More specifically, chapter VII.

Article 39 states that "The Security Council shall determine the existence of any threat to the peace, breach of the peace, or act of aggression and shall make recommendations, or decide what measures shall be taken"

As the Security Council had not decided what action was to be taken, nor authorised any, the war was illegal. As Kofi Annan said "I have indicated it was not in conformity with the UN charter. From our point of view and from the charter point of view it was illegal".

but lets take it from this piont of veiw lets say th U.S. is waiting for the U.N. to make its decsicion mean while the U.S. gets attacked. And whos to say that there is no evidence of a threat to the peace in iraq
Posted: Thu, 4th Nov 2004, 12:01am

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stqagehanduk

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http://amysrobot.com/archives/2004/07/capital_punishm.php

Any one on Death Row MUST desreve it, or they wouldn't be there? Just ;like any Country invaded by the US just HAD to be bad men ...
Posted: Thu, 4th Nov 2004, 12:02am

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GeeksGoneBad

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CX3 wrote:

They are savages that behead innocent victims, that right there should be enough motive to want to eradicate terrorists.
That's Ignorant. Yes they have some derranged people over there but so does every country. We had the Oklahoma City Bomber and the Columbine kids to name a few. Does that mean that Americans are crazy and need to be eradicated as well. You cant label a whole country as being savages.
I didn't say that! I DID NOT label the whole country as savages! Stop putting words in peoples mouths, you know I was talking about the terrorists. THE TERRORISTS...
Posted: Thu, 4th Nov 2004, 12:03am

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Arktic

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last time i checked there werent many children murdering people and thats one of the only ways you get sent to the eletric chair.
The USA has executed more child offenders than any other country (19 since 1990). Of the three child executions that Amnesty International knew of in 2003, two were carried out in China, the other in the USA. The US is one of only 8 countries in the world (along with the Democratic Republic of Congo, Iran, Nigeria, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, China and Yemen) who still insist on breaching international human rights treaties by sentencing under 18's to death.
Posted: Thu, 4th Nov 2004, 12:03am

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ssj john

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CX3 wrote:

They are savages that behead innocent victims, that right there should be enough motive to want to eradicate terrorists.
That's Ignorant. Yes they have some derranged people over there but so does every country. We had the Oklahoma City Bomber and the Columbine kids to name a few. Does that mean that Americans are crazy and need to be eradicated as well. You cant label a whole country as being savages.
your bringing it back to iraq cx3 i think what he was talking about the terrorist in iraq not the iraqi people them selves and yes if you have derranged americans than they two need to be erraticated
Posted: Thu, 4th Nov 2004, 12:05am

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ssj john

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Arktic wrote:

last time i checked there werent many children murdering people and thats one of the only ways you get sent to the eletric chair.
The USA has executed more child offenders than any other country (19 since 1990). Of the three child executions that Amnesty International knew of in 2003, two were carried out in China, the other in the USA. The US is one of only 8 countries in the world (along with the Democratic Republic of Congo, Iran, Nigeria, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, China and Yemen) who still insist on breaching international human rights treaties by sentencing under 18's to death.
lol could you get me the evidence of that to and the correct definition of a child offender.
Posted: Thu, 4th Nov 2004, 12:07am

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stqagehanduk

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http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=27&did=203#agereqs

There you go.
Posted: Thu, 4th Nov 2004, 12:09am

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Arktic

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say th U.S. is waiting for the U.N. to make its decsicion mean while the U.S. gets attacked
Oh, and the evidence for this is what exactly? Nothing?

Iraq has NEVER carried out a SINGLE attack on US soil.

Besides which, the only way that the use of force against another country by a member state is justified under the UN charter is set out by Chapter VII, Article 51, which states :

Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security.

Hence, the only reason to attack without the UN's agreement would be in 'self-defence' because of an "armed attack". Iraq has never attacked the US. The war was still illegal.
Posted: Thu, 4th Nov 2004, 12:11am

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Arktic

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lol could you get me the evidence of that to and the correct definition of a child offender
Facts and Figures on the Death Penalty (point 5)
and
Article on child excecutions.
Posted: Thu, 4th Nov 2004, 12:16am

Post 129 of 129

Joshua Davies

Force: 25400 | Joined: 21st Mar 2001 | Posts: 3029

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This topic seems to have gone insane and it appears that many Americans have been voting in the outside US vote (the whole point of the post). Therefore i'm gonna lock it, seems to be rather pointless now anyway.