You are viewing an archive of the old fxhome.com forums. The community has since moved to hitfilm.com.

Help Needed! 2 characters same actor!

Posted: Sun, 2nd Jan 2005, 4:15pm

Post 1 of 44

EGcoolman

Force: 200 | Joined: 21st Oct 2004 | Posts: 7

Gold Member

I need some help, i am currently looking to shoot a film, with 2 characters. But the premise is that they are played by the same actor. I know I can use a double for some shots, but any ideas how I can shoot it when I need them, both on camera for some shots, showing both their faces!
Posted: Sun, 2nd Jan 2005, 4:21pm

Post 2 of 44

b4uask30male

Force: 5619 | Joined: 22nd Feb 2002 | Posts: 3497

Windows User

Gold Member

ahem

You need to do what I am doing at the moment, check out 2 EPIC on here or on www.superteam.biz

I've had just me and the actor, the first thing i done was to use either cromonator or after effects to split screen the person.
This must be done with a tripod.
Some shots I put his coat on me and I could walk past him.
Normaly i shoot over the shoulder shots, but this can't be done easy, so you'll need to shoot 1 at a time, making sure that the high of the actor is the same as where he should be looking, otherwise he will be looking higher or lower than where he should.
Lighting is important if split screening try to keep people behind the camera still and not move.
If you need more help just ask
Posted: Sun, 2nd Jan 2005, 7:59pm

Post 3 of 44

MrShmoe

Force: 1114 | Joined: 29th Apr 2003 | Posts: 411

EffectsLab Lite User Windows User

Gold Member

If you have AE you can check out this tutorial: http://hem.bredband.net/b277566/MSE/split.htm
Posted: Sun, 2nd Jan 2005, 8:02pm

Post 4 of 44

Waser

Force: 4731 | Joined: 7th Sep 2003 | Posts: 3111

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 2 Pro User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User

SuperUser

I used chromonator to do that in two of my movies, and it was incredibly easy.
Posted: Sun, 2nd Jan 2005, 8:15pm

Post 5 of 44

Klut

Force: 2120 | Joined: 16th Apr 2004 | Posts: 1585

VisionLab User FXpreset Maker Windows User MacOS User FXhome Movie Maker

Gold Member

try the demo of Chromanator, and try this http://fxhome.com/support/tutorials/view.php?i=15
Posted: Mon, 3rd Jan 2005, 12:36pm

Post 6 of 44

EGcoolman

Force: 200 | Joined: 21st Oct 2004 | Posts: 7

Gold Member

I know that split screen works if the camera is stationary but what If I want both characters to be moving. Is this even possible? Plus I also have to get around the obstacle that both characters will be having a conversation and filmed seperatley, they will have to be talkking/arguing with nobody! Any ideas how I can make the conversation seem as real as possible, or is it just clever editing?
Posted: Mon, 3rd Jan 2005, 12:49pm

Post 7 of 44

Simon K Jones

Force: 27955 | Joined: 1st Jan 2002 | Posts: 11683

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 5 Pro User MuzzlePlug User PowerPlug User PhotoKey 3 Plug-in User FXhome Movie Maker FXpreset Maker Windows User

FXhome Team Member

Having the actors move around is simple, doesn't make any difference. If you want the camera to move, that's a whole other thing and extremely difficult to accomplish without motion control.

As for the conversation, that'll mainly be down to lots of practice. Probably be worth having somebody else provide the alternate lines for each take.
Posted: Mon, 3rd Jan 2005, 12:54pm

Post 8 of 44

EGcoolman

Force: 200 | Joined: 21st Oct 2004 | Posts: 7

Gold Member

ok, so camera movement is going to be pretty hard o.k. then. But if I have somebody else provide the lines for each take will I be able to remove the audio from the person providing the other lines, or will that be lost when i put both clips over each other, how would i go about that?
Posted: Mon, 3rd Jan 2005, 1:26pm

Post 9 of 44

b4uask30male

Force: 5619 | Joined: 22nd Feb 2002 | Posts: 3497

Windows User

Gold Member

no, camera movement is easy.

Take a look at segment 2 of 2 EPIC, you'll see the two guys chatting ( well one guy but filmed twice )
the camera PANS from one guy to the other.
Once you watch it, come and ask how easy it was to do and i'll tell you.
Posted: Mon, 3rd Jan 2005, 1:29pm

Post 10 of 44

Rawree

Force: 3250 | Joined: 27th Jun 2002 | Posts: 1925

EffectsLab Lite User Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

b4uask30male wrote:

no, camera movement is easy.

Take a look at segment 2 of 2 EPIC, you'll see the two guys chatting ( well one guy but filmed twice )
the camera PANS from one guy to the other.
Once you watch it, come and ask how easy it was to do and i'll tell you.
Is that using the technique on your forims a while back (The master zap thing?)
Posted: Mon, 3rd Jan 2005, 1:32pm

Post 11 of 44

b4uask30male

Force: 5619 | Joined: 22nd Feb 2002 | Posts: 3497

Windows User

Gold Member

Master zap ?
Not sure what you mean, sorry sad
I've seen some other people do the moving camera thing, but they looked hard to do and involved cutting images etc, mine is so easy that i'm suprised everyone doesn't do it.
Posted: Mon, 3rd Jan 2005, 1:48pm

Post 12 of 44

Rawree

Force: 3250 | Joined: 27th Jun 2002 | Posts: 1925

EffectsLab Lite User Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

I found a link on your forums that was about moving cam cloning, Master Zap is the guy who "invented" the method.

You shoot it on a tripod, rotate the cam a bit, shoot the other clone and then do some stuff with 3d layers in AE.
Posted: Mon, 3rd Jan 2005, 1:49pm

Post 13 of 44

Simon K Jones

Force: 27955 | Joined: 1st Jan 2002 | Posts: 11683

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 5 Pro User MuzzlePlug User PowerPlug User PhotoKey 3 Plug-in User FXhome Movie Maker FXpreset Maker Windows User

FXhome Team Member

b4uask30male wrote:

I've seen some other people do the moving camera thing, but they looked hard to do and involved cutting images etc, mine is so easy that i'm suprised everyone doesn't do it.
How'd you do it, then?
Posted: Mon, 3rd Jan 2005, 2:56pm

Post 14 of 44

b4uask30male

Force: 5619 | Joined: 22nd Feb 2002 | Posts: 3497

Windows User

Gold Member

well, using either AE or chrom.
I made the scene with the one guy sitting twice as normal, once done and rendered i then took it back in and stretched the footage, then i moved the footage to the left, so the camera is now on the left guy, then on the last keyframe of the scene i moved the image that was stretched to the right.
This then gave me a camera pan with both guys sitting there.

I repeated this again in another scene and this time i zoomed out slightly aswell as panning, thus creating the effect that the camera was there and filmed them live.
Posted: Mon, 3rd Jan 2005, 3:06pm

Post 15 of 44

Simon K Jones

Force: 27955 | Joined: 1st Jan 2002 | Posts: 11683

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 5 Pro User MuzzlePlug User PowerPlug User PhotoKey 3 Plug-in User FXhome Movie Maker FXpreset Maker Windows User

FXhome Team Member

Hm, digital pans/zooms can work to a limited extent, but if you try and do anything too drastic it'll result either in pixellation or the effect being too obvious. Very useful for some things, though.

Actually having the camera rove about is a whole other challenge, though.
Posted: Mon, 3rd Jan 2005, 5:36pm

Post 16 of 44

b4uask30male

Force: 5619 | Joined: 22nd Feb 2002 | Posts: 3497

Windows User

Gold Member

yeah, the way i did it is ok just to add a bit more of a non static feel to the scene.

Did you see the advert with the girl walking in the street and there was loads of her all over the place, it was an all in one shot following her.
Posted: Mon, 3rd Jan 2005, 5:55pm

Post 17 of 44

Simon K Jones

Force: 27955 | Joined: 1st Jan 2002 | Posts: 11683

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 5 Pro User MuzzlePlug User PowerPlug User PhotoKey 3 Plug-in User FXhome Movie Maker FXpreset Maker Windows User

FXhome Team Member

If you have motion control it's pretty easy, as you can replicate the exact same camera move each time. Then it's just a matter of compositing the pieces together as required - and they'll all match up perfectly.

Oh, for a big budget. smile
Posted: Mon, 3rd Jan 2005, 6:03pm

Post 18 of 44

Waser

Force: 4731 | Joined: 7th Sep 2003 | Posts: 3111

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 2 Pro User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User

SuperUser

didnt pooky do something like that in his movie? I always wondered how he did that
Posted: Mon, 3rd Jan 2005, 7:33pm

Post 19 of 44

b4uask30male

Force: 5619 | Joined: 22nd Feb 2002 | Posts: 3497

Windows User

Gold Member

I'm shooting again for segment 6 in 2 weeks and i'll be pushing my limits on the split screen / two people on the screen at the same time thingy,
i'll be sure to let you all see ( weather it's any good i don't know, but i have some intresting idea's to try ( none of it is bluescreen sad ) so it makes it harder to move camera's but i'll try.
Posted: Mon, 3rd Jan 2005, 9:15pm

Post 20 of 44

Rawree

Force: 3250 | Joined: 27th Jun 2002 | Posts: 1925

EffectsLab Lite User Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

Well I made this:
http://www.rawree.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Low_Clone.mov

There's no stretching involved so all clips stay at their maximum quality.
I believe that this method also makes the pan "optically correct".

Here's how (This is what I was talking about B4Uask): http://www.kidwars.com/intermezzo/why-pan-works.mov
Posted: Mon, 3rd Jan 2005, 11:30pm

Post 21 of 44

NoClue

Force: 828 | Joined: 31st Aug 2003 | Posts: 279

EffectsLab Lite User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User

Gold Member

Rawree wrote:

Here's how (This is what I was talking about B4Uask): http://www.kidwars.com/intermezzo/why-pan-works.mov
That's interesting. Pity chromy can't do that. But my Vegas 5 can! Wheee. I'll have to give this a try.
Posted: Wed, 5th Jan 2005, 3:58pm

Post 22 of 44

jnjosh

Force: 987 | Joined: 16th Jan 2003 | Posts: 44

CompositeLab Pro User EffectsLab Lite User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User FXpreset Maker

Gold Member

I saw the master zap thing and made my attempt at it last summer when I did my kids movie... Here is the clip from it:

http://www.kidventures.net/mydownloads/movies/thepan.mov
Posted: Wed, 5th Jan 2005, 7:52pm

Post 23 of 44

obidean

Force: 300 | Joined: 22nd Sep 2004 | Posts: 193

EffectsLab Lite User

Gold Member

Rawree wrote:

Here's how (This is what I was talking about B4Uask): http://www.kidwars.com/intermezzo/why-pan-works.mov
That link doesn't work for me, and I want to know how it works so I can do it in my Vegas 5... frown Any Help?
Posted: Wed, 5th Jan 2005, 7:57pm

Post 24 of 44

Rawree

Force: 3250 | Joined: 27th Jun 2002 | Posts: 1925

EffectsLab Lite User Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

Have you tried saving it to disk? It works for me.
Posted: Wed, 5th Jan 2005, 8:15pm

Post 25 of 44

obidean

Force: 300 | Joined: 22nd Sep 2004 | Posts: 193

EffectsLab Lite User

Gold Member

Yay! It worked! It looks as though I need AE? Is this effect possible using only Vegas 5?
Posted: Wed, 5th Jan 2005, 8:21pm

Post 26 of 44

Rawree

Force: 3250 | Joined: 27th Jun 2002 | Posts: 1925

EffectsLab Lite User Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

rcamuk wrote:

http://www.kidwars.com/intermezzo/why-pan-works.mov

That's interesting. Pity chromy can't do that. But my Vegas 5 can! Wheee. I'll have to give this a try.
Apparently so.
Posted: Wed, 5th Jan 2005, 8:27pm

Post 27 of 44

NoClue

Force: 828 | Joined: 31st Aug 2003 | Posts: 279

EffectsLab Lite User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User

Gold Member

Rawree wrote:

rcamuk wrote:

http://www.kidwars.com/intermezzo/why-pan-works.mov

That's interesting. Pity chromy can't do that. But my Vegas 5 can! Wheee. I'll have to give this a try.
Apparently so.
It's do-able, since V5 can manipulate video in 3D. But it will take a lot of time, hard work and lots of key framing.

It would probably be quicker, easier and cheaper to buy AE and use that .... Hey, hang on a minute, I've got AE as well. Wheee! I can use that. Now all I need to do is learn how to use it!
Posted: Sun, 9th Jan 2005, 10:18pm

Post 28 of 44

EGcoolman

Force: 200 | Joined: 21st Oct 2004 | Posts: 7

Gold Member

Thanks for all the suggestions guys, but another problem I would have is that say I am shooting outdoors, and a shot takes 20 mins, and i have to shoot it twice so I can splitscreen the footage on top of another, the light will be different in each shot, any ideas/
Posted: Sun, 9th Jan 2005, 11:16pm

Post 29 of 44

NoClue

Force: 828 | Joined: 31st Aug 2003 | Posts: 279

EffectsLab Lite User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User

Gold Member

Do it quicker! smile
Posted: Tue, 11th Jan 2005, 9:14am

Post 30 of 44

EGcoolman

Force: 200 | Joined: 21st Oct 2004 | Posts: 7

Gold Member

Yeah....ok thanks, do it quiker i like that! Ok now HERE is a problem that i think is UNSOLVABLE. Or I cant think of a way, anyhow.

If I have 2 different clips, as i am splitscreening so i have the same actor, playing 2 DIFFERENT characters, they will be talking to each other in both shots, but when I lay the clips over each other, I wont be able to use the audio from both clips will I. Thinking now is the only way to solve this by re-recording the dialgoue AFTER the film is shot!?! And do a lot of feature films do this? I now Lord Of The Rings done it for all of their films, you would never know though would you!
Posted: Tue, 11th Jan 2005, 10:12am

Post 31 of 44

Simon K Jones

Force: 27955 | Joined: 1st Jan 2002 | Posts: 11683

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 5 Pro User MuzzlePlug User PowerPlug User PhotoKey 3 Plug-in User FXhome Movie Maker FXpreset Maker Windows User

FXhome Team Member

Just use the audio from both clips. Not difficult at all - just layer them both next to each other in your editing program. If it's difficult to time the lines, you can cut each audio track into separate pieces, so you can position the lines manually.
Posted: Tue, 11th Jan 2005, 12:48pm

Post 32 of 44

NoClue

Force: 828 | Joined: 31st Aug 2003 | Posts: 279

EffectsLab Lite User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User

Gold Member

What software are you using? Most will have enough tracks to lay down more than one audio line.

Unless your using something like Moviemaker. er.... you're not are you redface
Posted: Tue, 11th Jan 2005, 12:59pm

Post 33 of 44

Mellifluous

Force: 5604 | Joined: 6th Oct 2002 | Posts: 3782

EffectsLab Pro User Windows User

Gold Member

Sure you'll be able to use the audio from both, unless the 2 clones talk over each other. It's just a case of editing the audio a bit & laying it at the right places in the timeline

edit: strange, I don't recall seeing Tarn's post there - didn't mean to repeat what he said

Last edited Fri, 14th Jan 2005, 3:43pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Tue, 11th Jan 2005, 5:59pm

Post 34 of 44

VisualFXGuy

Force: 265 | Joined: 9th Sep 2004 | Posts: 308

Windows User

Member

The only issue with using 3D composites and using your virtual camera for movement is that if you get too extreme then anyone who is used to looking at movies will be able to tell it's not right. Depth of Field and other such details will be off.

A great example of this is Liar Liar or The Cable Guy... I forget which Jim Carrey movie it was. The Pan and Scan version of the movie has two people at a table one on one side and one on the other talking back and forth. They're in the same frame in the widescreen, but in the P&S version theres only room for one actor, so they took it into a compositing program and tried to pan across between the two. It dosent look correct at all. Quite unsetteling in my opinion.

That being said, the number one thing to get correct is lighting and eyelines. When your split screening, you have to make sure that your eyelines are correct (welcome to the number one issue of why greenscreen can look really fake) and make sure ALL your lighting is controlled. If you shoot one person and then shoot the other, and theres a difference in shadows or light on a wall or even the general color of a scene, then your whole shot is trashed. You might be able to fix this with some colour correction or some feathered masks, but generaly be aware of these two issues.

That brings me to suggestion number 3. If your actors are walking back and forth, infront of one another or even sharing props between each other, then it'll really help to sell the scene. Subtle things like reflections in windows can really increase the beliveablitliy that your actor is sharing the scene with himself. Get good and using and manipulating masks. Masks will help you overlap from one piece of footage to the other and have the footages interfere with each other at certian times, depending on what your actor is doing.

Number 4 is this: The Paint function. Get good at using a paint function in your compositing program. I think After Effects has this, but i've never used it in that program. If you have a Wacom tablet all the better, infact it'll be INFINATLY better if you have a tablet to do painting with. When you bring the ability to paint in, you allow for simple things like removing wire or sticks attached to props and therefore can get away with sneakly little tricks to have your actor "share the scene".

All that said, has anyone ever noticed how I can't write a simple post? I just keep yapping on forever and ever.

Weird.
Posted: Tue, 11th Jan 2005, 6:06pm

Post 35 of 44

VisualFXGuy

Force: 265 | Joined: 9th Sep 2004 | Posts: 308

Windows User

Member

As for the audio problem, I'd simple re-record the dialogue, or have a boom mic recording the dialogue on set/location. The probelm with using two clips is that your overlaying general background noise and ambiance in the background that you really don't need. Unless you clip it down to what you actor is saying, then it should work.

Many many multiple takes will also help you with your timing...
Posted: Tue, 11th Jan 2005, 6:15pm

Post 36 of 44

NoClue

Force: 828 | Joined: 31st Aug 2003 | Posts: 279

EffectsLab Lite User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User

Gold Member

VisualFXGuy wrote:

... or even sharing props between each other...
How do you do that anyway? I've seen a few films and tests on here showing people handing cups to themselves, etc, but no explainations of how it's done. How do you make sure your hands are in the right place to receive the cup? At what point do you cut from the cup in one shoot to the cup in the other shoot?, etc, etc, etc?
Posted: Tue, 11th Jan 2005, 7:16pm

Post 37 of 44

VisualFXGuy

Force: 265 | Joined: 9th Sep 2004 | Posts: 308

Windows User

Member

Quite simple actually. I did the cup handing things as the masking assignment in my FX Program. It's quite simple:

Shoot one person walking over to a table and putting the cup down on the table.

The second half will be the same person on the other side of the screen picking the cup up.

When you take this into post, you have to figure out when you want the cups to switch. Since the cups don't move and are stationary when you'll be switching the masks, there will be no visible difference in how the cups looks when you switch. Jsut animate one mask to reveal or hide the cup, depending on what layer your footage is on. The result should look seamless.

Of course, a change in lighting can affect how the cups look so there WILL be a visible difference in your masking, but i've already talked about that above.

I hope this makes sense..... smile
Posted: Tue, 11th Jan 2005, 10:33pm

Post 38 of 44

NoClue

Force: 828 | Joined: 31st Aug 2003 | Posts: 279

EffectsLab Lite User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User

Gold Member

VisualFXGuy wrote:

Shoot one person walking over to a table and putting the cup down on the table.
That's not what I meant.

I've seen a film on here where a guy actually hands a cup to a copy of himself, takes a drink, then hands it back. Putting it on a table is easy, we can all do that. But how do you physically hand something to yourself and keep it lined up?
Posted: Wed, 12th Jan 2005, 1:21pm

Post 39 of 44

Rawree

Force: 3250 | Joined: 27th Jun 2002 | Posts: 1925

EffectsLab Lite User Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

If you have a stool or small table at the height where you would hand over the cup you simply have to put the cup on the table/stand, cut (after standing there for a bit so you have plenty of footage for the time where the "clone" is drinking) and then go and pick up the cup and drink (making sure you have plenty of footage of you standing about before you pick it up). Then you just have to match up the clips so that there's no gap between the first guty putting down the cup and the second picking it up. Then just remove the table/stand with a clean BG plate and do your usual split screen cloning trick (you might need to mask around the hands a bit during the changeover.

I'll see if I can put together a test to show the different stages soon.
Posted: Wed, 12th Jan 2005, 5:44pm

Post 40 of 44

VisualFXGuy

Force: 265 | Joined: 9th Sep 2004 | Posts: 308

Windows User

Member

For handing a cup, you could do it a number of ways...

One, is to have a cup on a pole or something rigid that someone holds off screen, so when you hand it you can have the cup stay there, and then you jump around to the other side and mime the action of recieving the cup, same principal as having the cup on the table, instead of a cup on a table, you've got a cup on a pole to keep in it place while you take your other position. Then it's just masking or painting the pole out. smile

The other way is to have a monitor displaying what your shooting. Set up
some kind of marker in the background in line with where your going to hand the cup off, so you just do a billion takes to hit that marker. Any small error in line up when you mask your footage together can be fixed with painting/warping/morphing the cup.

Of course, you'll have to do some masking around fingers, and probably adding in some shadows around the cup, but that's just the usual...
Posted: Fri, 14th Jan 2005, 3:18pm

Post 41 of 44

Simon K Jones

Force: 27955 | Joined: 1st Jan 2002 | Posts: 11683

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 5 Pro User MuzzlePlug User PowerPlug User PhotoKey 3 Plug-in User FXhome Movie Maker FXpreset Maker Windows User

FXhome Team Member

rcamuk wrote:

Rawree wrote:

Here's how (This is what I was talking about B4Uask): http://www.kidwars.com/intermezzo/why-pan-works.mov
That's interesting. Pity chromy can't do that.
Just thought I'd mention that new Chromy, post Mammoth Update, will be able to do this effect - it will give you the ability to map your video to the quad in perspective mode which is the same as AE 3d transforms. smile

Last edited Fri, 14th Jan 2005, 3:26pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Fri, 14th Jan 2005, 3:24pm

Post 42 of 44

Klut

Force: 2120 | Joined: 16th Apr 2004 | Posts: 1585

VisionLab User FXpreset Maker Windows User MacOS User FXhome Movie Maker

Gold Member

Tarn wrote:

rcamuk wrote:

Rawree wrote:

Here's how (This is what I was talking about B4Uask): http://www.kidwars.com/intermezzo/why-pan-works.mov
That's interesting. Pity chromy can't do that.
Just thought I'd mention that new Chromy, post Mammoth Update, will be able to do this effect - it will give you to map your video to the quad in perspective mode which is the same as AE 3d transforms. smile
biggrin biggrin biggrin biggrin biggrin biggrin biggrin
Posted: Fri, 14th Jan 2005, 3:34pm

Post 43 of 44

NoClue

Force: 828 | Joined: 31st Aug 2003 | Posts: 279

EffectsLab Lite User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User

Gold Member

Tarn wrote:

...new Chromy... will be able to do this effect...
Oh, you're just showing off now!

biggrin
Posted: Fri, 14th Jan 2005, 3:58pm

Post 44 of 44

Rawree

Force: 3250 | Joined: 27th Jun 2002 | Posts: 1925

EffectsLab Lite User Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

3D layers? That sounds really quite awesome.