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The Travesty of Marijuana Prohibition

Posted: Tue, 15th Mar 2005, 11:23pm

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Coureur de Bois

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Check out the Public Service Announcement that I recently made:

"45 Seconds" - The Travesty of Marijuana Prohibition

I hope you enjoy and take something away from this. I'm just trying to spread the word so that someday we'll be free from this discrimination.

If you found that interesting, I'd recommend checking out:

The National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws
http://www.norml.org/
Posted: Tue, 15th Mar 2005, 11:56pm

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Joshua Davies

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Not sure I took anything from that myself. Didn't give me any reason Marijuana should be legal just some random and somewhat irrelevant historical facts.

Maybe it seems more poignant when you are high? wink
Posted: Tue, 15th Mar 2005, 11:57pm

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Mellifluous

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schwar wrote:


Maybe it seems more poignant when you are high? wink
Give me 10 minutes to check whether this is so...
Posted: Wed, 16th Mar 2005, 12:07am

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Waser

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if marijuana was legalized, it probably wouldn't be legal for you anyway. But I have a feeling you'd smoke it anyway.
Posted: Wed, 16th Mar 2005, 12:15am

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Coureur de Bois

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schwar: I wanted to do something pretty simple and let the viewer draw their own conclusions. I included the historical facts to show how the US was basically founded by Cannabis users, and why now our government views it as such an evil thing.

so basically I just wanted to form some interest and illustrate that there is indeed a problem with the current system then give the viewer a resource for further info.

waser: why wouldn't I be able to smoke it if it was legalized? crazy
Posted: Wed, 16th Mar 2005, 12:27am

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Mellifluous

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It's a good concept, well thought out & made. Filmmaking wise, would have been interesting to see a faster paced video that had the info in different styles & wider variety of clips.

About the issue:
I don't like cigarettes & likewise I don't like weed, contrary to what I wrote earlier. Just the thought of ingesting such disgusting substances into my body makes me puke. I'd rather the use of them were stopped. Then again, I don't believe in their criminalisation, as this accomplishes little & is frankly dictatorial. There are so many other things that have more importance policing wise. At the end of the day, smoking is traditional, harms no one (except when you're breathing smoke into someone's face of course) but yourself, & yah...could apply the same argument to lots of drugs though, difficult to where to draw the line. At least pot doesn't fund terrorism.
Posted: Wed, 16th Mar 2005, 12:58am

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Coureur de Bois

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Mellifluous wrote:

It's a good concept, well thought out & made. Filmmaking wise, would have been interesting to see a faster paced video that had the info in different styles & wider variety of clips.

About the issue:
I don't like cigarettes & likewise I don't like weed, contrary to what I wrote earlier. Just the thought of ingesting such disgusting substances into my body makes me puke. I'd rather the use of them were stopped. Then again, I don't believe in their criminalisation, as this accomplishes little & is frankly dictatorial. There are so many other things that have more importance policing wise. At the end of the day, smoking is traditional, harms no one (except when you're breathing smoke into someone's face of course) but yourself, & yah...could apply the same argument to lots of drugs though, difficult to where to draw the line. At least pot doesn't fund terrorism.
Yeah, I would have like to had a lot more information in it but I was limited by a 1 minute time limit.

I wish more people shared your sentiments Mel. I respect the fact that even though you don't smoke you don't place judgment on those who do.
Posted: Wed, 16th Mar 2005, 3:14am

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Waser

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well, Im guessing because of what i read in your profile, you're 19, and I imagine if pot was legalized, there would be a 21 year old age limit.

btw, im all for the legalization of drugs, just to throw my opinion out there. don't do drugs or weed, never have, never want to, but think that the war on drugs is ridiculous.

give waser 2 pints of ale and he'll be happy for the night
Posted: Wed, 16th Mar 2005, 3:30am

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Hendo

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Re movie: I liked your use of the 1950s (or whenever) "public issue" clip. And the little stopwatch counter was a nice touch. It'd be interesting to see the results if you borrowed some of Michael Moore's style of propaganda!

Your arguments didn't really convince me, though. Just because some of the founding fathers of the U.S. planted marijuana gardens (presumably also smoking it), does that mean it should be legal today? Using that same line of argument, some people might presume that you also support slavery today because certain people in the U.S. history once accepted it.

Re tobacco: The issue of passive smoking is very significant, as detailed by the following reports, of which there are many more.

http://www.ash.org.uk/html/factsheets/html/fact08.html
http://www7.health.gov.au/nhmrc/advice/nhmrc/exec2.htm

I really don't care if people choose to smoke (tobacco) themselves, but clearly passive smoking can have very big effects on others. Personally, I think that cigarettes should have enough tax on them to cover treatment of all active & passive smoking-related illnesses! But then, I suppose, that would just drive demand for other (underground) avenues of supplies.

Re the issue of marijuana: I'd like to see the counter arguments. E.g. What are the results of prolonged marijuana use? How many marijuana users move on to more serious drugs?
Posted: Wed, 16th Mar 2005, 4:30am

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Arktic

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Ok - a fairly well put together piece, but I'm not sure you've chosen the best facts to concentrate upon.

I'm all for the legalisation of cannabis, because as far as I'm concerned, not only would policing it's trade raise massive revenue for the government in tax, but I also believe that I should have the right to do as I choose, as long as it's not going to harm others. The usual counter-argument to this is "why don't we legalise crack and heroin then?" - but I feel that whereas addictive substances such as these can ruin someone's life, and in turn have a detrimental effect upon society, a non-addictive substance like cannabis that has never been proven to have any serious detrimental effects (other than those associated with smoking the substance, which isn't the only method of ingestion) will be no more dangerous to society than various drugs that are allready legalised.

Just IMHO smile

Cheers,
Arktic.
Posted: Wed, 16th Mar 2005, 5:49am

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The Artur

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I dont do any type of drugs, i dont smoke cigarets, and dont drink alcohol.
Im 16 and people in my school do all of the above, i dont feel comfartable being around such substances, i dont know why, i just dont. biggrin
Posted: Wed, 16th Mar 2005, 9:16am

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Bryce007

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Wait a minute...waser+ale? thats ILLEGAL son..don't make me report you.
Posted: Wed, 16th Mar 2005, 11:35am

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jstow222

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Face it people, it will never be leglized here in the US, get over it.
Posted: Wed, 16th Mar 2005, 11:53am

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Simon K Jones

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Some interesting historical facts in that video. However, they're largely irrelevant to the debate at hand. As Hendo has already pointed out, just because something was done in the past doesn't really have anything to do with modern times. America seems to have moved away from its founding principles in most areas, so I don't think the historical aspect will hold much weight.

Generally quite a good little spot, although the titling could have been a little slicker perhaps. Music and clips were well chosen, though, and the timer was a nice idea.

As for my personal opinion on the matter - it might as well be legalised, really, simply because it's entirely unenforceable currently and wastes far too much money and police time. 95% of the student population in the UK would be arrested if the laws were enforced.

However, I don't think smoking should be allowed in public areas, due to its generally antisocial nature. On the street is fine, but it's highly unpleasant in pubs/restaurants/etc. Some pubs have started banning smoking round here, and it's really quite remarkably pleasant. What people do in their own homes is up to them, though.

I've never smoked myself, due mainly to the foul stench. Whatever other arguments there are for and against smoking - both marijuana and tobacco - the disgusting smell is always the clincher for me. Euch. It seems like an essentially odd thing to do - take a bunch of herbs and chemicals, mix them together in a piece of paper, put them in your mouth and set them on fire. You have to wonder who thought it up in the first place. smile

In my experience, all cannabis smoking does is make people incredibly, incredibly boring.
Posted: Wed, 16th Mar 2005, 1:00pm

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Sollthar

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Filmwise, this is a nice idea and a solid effort.


I agree, the "facts" in the video are pretty meaningless. Hemp was and is still a good and cheap ressource for many things (strings, paper, cloth... to name a few) and I'd never say anything different.
That is largely irrelevant to the fact that it can also be used as a drug though. Having worked at a mental hospital on neurological experiments with drugs due to my own illness I am well aware that THC is not a harmless drug at all. It does severe damage, both physical and psychological.

I am strongly opionated in that matter too because people smoking weed on the street are a consistant danger to myself and have brought me to hospital more times than I can count. So my opinion about weed is strong and unfriendly, therefore I better don't continue.
The "as long as I don't hurt others" matter sounds like mockery in my ears.


On the matter of legalizing or not I personally don't really see the point of it.
On one hand, people do it whetever it is illegal or not. So leaving it illegal does hardly reduce the weed smoking or improve peoples abilities to make smart decisions themselves.
On the other hand though, legalizing it would send a message to people wich is simply not true. If it was legalized, people would come to believe even more, that it is a harmless drug. Wich it simply isn't. Even though legal doesn't mean harmless, I fear it'd be the way many people would interprate it. And thats the reason I think it should not be legalized. Not here and not in any other country.
Not without according education and people's ability to make good choices from that.
Posted: Wed, 16th Mar 2005, 6:04pm

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Rawree

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Tarn wrote:

Some interesting historical facts in that video. However, they're largely irrelevant to the debate at hand. As Hendo has already pointed out, just because something was done in the past doesn't really have anything to do with modern times.
Actually if you look at things like drinking alcohol and smoking in Britain (both causing large amounts of damage either directly or indirectly to people and with cigarettes being more addictive than drugs such as heroin) you can see that the only reason they are considered "acceptable" today is because of the association with them and Brittish history; alcohol going back to the middle ages (and before that?) due to the unsanitary drinking water and smoking going back to the time of Elizabeth I and so they have both been a part of British society for quite some time and people would fiercely object to something which has stood for that time being outlawed. If these substances were introduced at the same time as canabis then they would almost certainly be outlawed. So really I think that history has a big part to play in what is considered acceptable in society's eyes.

In my opinion whether cannabis is legalised or not is a moot point as people will still smoke it regardless, just as people continued to drink despite prohibition in the states.
Posted: Wed, 16th Mar 2005, 7:30pm

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Simon K Jones

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History does indeed have a big part to play but, as your examples show, it isn't a good thing in this case, or something to hold up to the light as a core element of a pro-argument.
Posted: Wed, 16th Mar 2005, 7:46pm

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Waser

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Rawree wrote:



In my opinion whether cannabis is legalised or not is a moot point as people will still smoke it regardless, just as people continued to drink despite prohibition in the states.
But the point is, look how different the times were when there was a prohibition. People were getting arrested, getting killed, and so on and so forth. THe ideea is that if pot is legalized, less people go to jail, the government can regulate it, and we'll all hold hands and feel terrific smile
Posted: Wed, 16th Mar 2005, 8:42pm

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Rawree

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Having watched the video now I can say that it didn't do all that much to persuade me.

I think you really took the wrong approach to it and the facts that you use are not good ones to illustrate your point (mostly):

1) Marijuana has been cultivated in the US for over 400 years.
A poor thing to choose, in my opinion, as the fact that it's part of American history is not a reason to legalise it: Discrimination and racism have existed in America since it was colonised and play a big part in it's history but that is no reason to encourage and legalise racism.

2) Our Forefathers planted their own Marajuana gardens.
Again not a very convincing argument, it takes the "They did it so why shouldn't I" approach with no regard for the time difference or the fact that what was acceptable then is different to today (slavery anyone?) or the fact that just because people do something that doesn't necessarily make it right.

3) The Declaration of Independence is written on Hemp Paper.
To me this seemed like nothing more than a piece of Canabis related trivia, not really an argument.

4) Over 70 million Americans...
Similarly a significant number of Americans have killed people (murder, war etc) so does that mean that murder should be legal.

The point about the cost to taxpayers is the only point I feel has any real impact as you can't argue aginst it really, you either feel the cost is worth it or don't.

The thing that really stood out was that after you tell people to "Accept the facts" you launch straight into a large dose of unproved opinion. "...causes no harm to society" many people I'm sure would feel that the entire population drifting around lighter than air, many of them being in charge of important decisions, is damaging to society. You also don't tell us why it shouln't be of interest to the Federal government, surely they should have some input on the state of the country...I thought that's what they were for.

You don't end particularly strongly either. The people this would be aimed at are those opposed to legalisation and so simply stating your opinion that marajuana prohibition is "unjust" is unlikely to change their mind.

The style of it was good, it was the facts that let you down as they can be picked apart by someone like myself (I personally don't care one way or the other for he legalisation). Get some good solid facts, hit first with the strongest and end on one of the strongest.
Posted: Wed, 16th Mar 2005, 9:30pm

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Coureur de Bois

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Rawee:

What you've said is true, but I think your missing the point of what I was trying to make with this clip. It's aimed at uninformed Americans who think that pot is some kind of evil drug that only recently has become widespread in our society. Like I said before, I'm honestly not trying to persuade anybody into thinking anything. I simply wanted to present some facts that would spark interest in the subject and subsequently give them a reference point where they could look into the facts for themselves.

I imagine that it would be fairly difficult to establish an effective argument in under a minute for an issue as heated as Marijuana legalization.
Posted: Wed, 16th Mar 2005, 9:51pm

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Rawree

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That was really my point, if you are targeting people who feel it's an evil drug and needs to stay banned you need to provide as strong an argument as possible as people don't change their mind just like that and if they are uninformend about the subject chances are they will fabricate their own ideas about the drug which may be worse than the truth (similar to all petty crime being blamed on Heroin crazed drug addicts by certain groups of un/misinformed people). I just felt that whether you are strongly opposed and know the facts, sitting on the fence or just plain uninformed the facts just arn't convincing enough.

To spark interest you need more than "Washington smoked weed, it's cool" (exaggeration I know) maybe a few comparisons between "social drugs" (alcohol and cigarettes) and marajuana; e.g: Illnesses linked to them, crime caused by them, deaths as a result of them etc.
Posted: Wed, 16th Mar 2005, 11:44pm

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Hendo

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[quote="orion0340"]Like I said before, I'm honestly not trying to persuade anybody into thinking anything. I simply wanted to present some facts that would spark interest in the subject and subsequently give them a reference point where they could look into the facts for themselves.
[/quote]

I appreciate that you may not have intended it to persuade people, but in my opinion, the film comes across as attempting to persuade viewers that marijuana should be legalised (in the U.S.). My reason for thinking this is that the film uses phrases such as: "time to accept the facts", "unjust prohibition", "When will it end?" and the final logo "It's time for a change".

Persuasion is not a bad thing! Manipulation is bad, but persuasion is not. Persuasion is where you present an argument (as best as you can!) and let the hearer make up his/her own mind. Manipulation is where you take control away from the hearer so that he/she, in effect, has no choice to make.

So I'm not saying that a persuasive film is bad -- I'm just saying that your film comes across, IMO, as trying to persuade, even though that may not have been your intention.

Incidentally, a very effective means of persuasion/rhetoric is to rebutt all the counter arguments within your own argument. E.g. "You may have heard people say that marijuana leads to harder drugs, but [insert counter argument here]..."

The effect of doing that is that you reduce the impact of all the counter arguments, not to mention coming across as more informed, aware and authoritative. Lawyers sometimes use that technique so that when the opposing lawyer speaks, it seems that he/she has nothing really effective or surprising to say. The knock-out punch has been reduced to a fly swat.

Anyone interested in rhetoric/persuasion may like to read up on Aristotle's rhetorical modes of ethos, logos and pathos.
Posted: Thu, 17th Mar 2005, 2:40am

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Arktic

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This post is not only directed towards Sollthar, but everyone who read my initial post.

Sollthar, they are very good points that you've raised, and I'd like to point out that I mean no offence or mockery toward anyone in any way. However, I feel I should explain my position in more detail.

Though it is true that I do enjoy the occasional cigarette now and again (and by now and again, I mean once every few months), I'd never think of smoking in a public place, such as on the street. However, I feel that in my own home, I should be able to do as I choose, and if that involves smoking cannabis, then who is the government to tell me that I don't have the basic human right to decide my own fate? In my own home, the 'I won't be harming anyone else' argument stands, as it would if cannabis was legalised, but only for designated and licensed premises.

However, much like smoking, people will allways abuse the rule, and smoke in public places, endangering others. But is this not the case for many, many things? For example, a minority of people abuse the right afforded to them to own and drive cars, and kill people through careless driving. However, we don't see it fit to ban cars just because a minority of car users don't have respect for the wellbeing of others. Why should it be any different for something such as cannabis? Not only would legalising it control it's trade, reducing the organised and gang crime involved with it's circulation, but it would also earn much-needed revenue for the government in the form of taxation. I feel that this is a win-win situation. If cannabis is not legal, there will still be people who suffer drug-related illness, and need treatment from the state. But if we tax cannabis, those people will have contributed to their own treatment - and this is clearly a good thing.

I also disagree with your statement that cannabis is a 'harmfull' substance. Though I agree that it is not "a harmless drug", neither is caffiene, alcohol or nicotine. There has never, in my opinion, been any significant and compelling evidence to suggest that cannabis has any detrimental effects further than the obvious hazzards due to ingesting the substance through smoking it. A large proportion of 'anti-marijuana' information is based upon methodologically flawed research conducted in the 1930's! As such, I don't think it's particularly convincing.

Anyway, that's just a reiteration of my position, and hopefully it clears up why I believe what I do.

Cheers guys,
Arktic.
Posted: Thu, 17th Mar 2005, 3:29am

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Serpent

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I must say, smoking is the stupidest thing a person can do to him/herself. It is suicide, slowly killing you so you can look cool and smell bad. Not to mention cough a lot.
Posted: Thu, 17th Mar 2005, 3:30am

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Steeb

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I was about to throw my two cents in, but Arktic just basically said everything I was going to...


Serpent wrote:

I must say, smoking is the stupidest thing a person can do to him/herself.
What about dunking yourself in a vat of chum and then jumping into shark-infested water? That's pretty stupid too, no? razz
Posted: Thu, 17th Mar 2005, 6:12am

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LtMcMurphy

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Maybe instead of focusing on the "travesty" of mary-jane being illegal (arg I cant indulge my vice what is this country coming to!) you could focus on more important "travesties" like THE WAR IN IRAQ BU$HITLER
Posted: Thu, 17th Mar 2005, 3:42pm

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Sollthar

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I agree with you Arktic. Basically, every person has the right to decide for himself. Theoretically in any matter.
That brings us to the all time question about the ability to decide for yourself. Even though I agree with the concept of "each to his own" and the basics that everyone should have the right to decide for himself, then again I also feel for the other side by wondering "who is able to decide for himself"? This is a difficult thing to put it the same basket. Many human beings have proven their unability to make smart decisions many times.

It's like raising a child. Do you let it decide completely on his own, even though it makes decisions that are wrong in your opinion? Or simply based on lack of knowledge, shortsightness or simple stupidity? To what degree should control go? It's also a matter of responsibility.
And the moment when one becomes a man or a women and is no child anymore doesn't really have a lot of impact. I know many children who can make better decisions then adults. But the adults always put the stress on how no one has the right to tell them what to do while the children have to obey.

As I said, I don't think forbidding anything is a solution. People will do it anyways. On the other hand, just allowing it because forbidding has no use doesn't make sense either. At least not to me.
What would HAVE to be a solution is A education in the matter. Learning about the consequences. That alone is not enough either though. You would also have to socialise people differently and not just let them have the responsibility of having the freedom to do as they please, but also teach them how to responsibly go on with that.
And this again, is wishful thinking.

So basically, I don't have an answer to the question. I think just criminalising it is the wrong thing to do. And I think just legalising it is the wrong thing to do as well.



To the harmfulness of cannabis:
I know there are many reports stating false things. Thats the reason I was interested in taking part in experiments myself (not taking drugs myself obviously, but examining their effects) because I like not having to rely on other peoples reports.
And the results of the tests have been quite interesting and do not associate with the public opinion about the harm of cannabis. Not at all. At least the one that can be found here in switzerland; wich is that cannabis is a "completely harmless" substance.

The effect THC has on cerebral synapses are comparable with heroin. (The effect on the rest of the body is significantly lesser though; you can't die of marijua - if you're not allergic like me)
It does a lot of damage in the brain though, mainly in parts where this damage can not be repaired.
The popular saying that cannabis consumers are slow in mind and forgetful are medically provable. And this is not something that passes once the direct effect disappears (obviously it's not as strong as when you're under the direct influence of the substance, but the damage remains and is still visible). The reactions are far more complicated than that though.
The feeling that it "expands ones thought" is completely the oposite; simple tests can prove that.

The popular saying that a joint doesn't create cancer is nonsense. What is true, is that the substance THC itself doesn't create cancer. The other substances that are in a common joint on the other hand do; much more then with a normal cigarette. (Obviously as well, this doesn't apply with other methods of consumation)

The most important thing though is the fact, that cannabis has; next to THC; more then 20 chemical substances whose effects we simply know nothing about. They could be harmless, but could also be harmful. We simply don't know yet.

Of course, it's also a question of how often you consume the substance. Obviously, it will have different effects on someone who smokes a joint every second day (and we have enough of those here in switzerland) or if you smoke weed twice a year.



So as I said, I don't base my opinion on "anti-marijuana" propaganda from the 30s. There has been and still goes a lot of misinformation on the subject, both pro and contra marijuana.
Of course each and everyone is free to chose wich report he believes and will - no doubt - most likely chose one that reflects his opinion about the matter.

At the end of the day, it's still a choice. I have found my choice, I can think of smarter things to do with my brain then destroying with with drugs, no matter what kind. Thats how I see it. Everyone else is free to choose differently.

But if I ever end up in hospital because of one of them, I'll kick his ass so hard he won't be able to sit fot the next 12 months. wink
Posted: Thu, 17th Mar 2005, 6:48pm

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Mellifluous

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This debate is getting huge...why not then discuss the harmfulness of plenty of other things that are legalised? Cigarettes, the toxic chemicals all around us in food, the air we breathe, in our water , the many medicinal drugs that are deemed safe by experts yet have many side effects etc.

It's so difficult making an "informed" choice these days, but doing so can be as important enough to determine whether you want to live a further 20 years or so. Unfortunately, people are often just too lazy to educate themselves on certain things, which is probably why a lot of bad things happen.

My own reasoning behind legalising marijuana is simply based on the fact that if cigars & cigarettes are legal, then so should marijuana. I think it's not legal because of monetary terms - marijuana would be hard to tax because everyone could grow it in their back garden.
Posted: Sun, 27th Mar 2005, 10:13pm

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cinemafreak

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To me the issue is far from black and white. First off, marijuana is a relatively harmless drug when compared to other illegal substances such as heroin, cocaine, methamphedamine, and inhalents and abused substances such as household cleaners and prescription drugs. But, none the less, marijuana does impair judgement just as alcohol and all of the above would do. And then we come to the arguement for medical marijuana. I believe it is a great thing for glucoma (spelling) patients and other patients to be able to use pot. For them, marijuana greatly reduces their pain and makes life much less miserable. As I have stated before, marijuana does impair judgement, and a driver under the influence of marijuana poses a threat to the public. So, for me, this issue is a tough call. If there ever was a way to restrict and regulate marijuana to the point where it could be controlled, then I believe legalization should be considered, if not, than I think it should remain illegal.
Posted: Mon, 28th Mar 2005, 3:42am

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DPUMA8

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Back in those old days, they didn't 3000 lb cars that go 100mph too. Doesn't pot have 10 times more tar in it than cigarettes?
Posted: Mon, 28th Mar 2005, 5:42pm

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Z28Jerry

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Love this subject, lol.

Now that I'm all "grown up" and no longer smoke pot (but I do drink heavily, lol) I love to compare myself to allot of my friends who didn't "grow up" Many of my friends that kept the dope habit, seemed to have set lower standards for themselves and lived up to them. Most don't own homes, are driving a 10 year old car and really have dead end jobs, or middle management jobs that doom them into forever stressing over when they will loose it. I quit smoking pot when I was 19 (I smoked ALOT) and got on the straight and narrow. Unlike most other guys that go straight, I did not preach to my friends, nor did they preach to me. I am still good friends with all of them. Hell, I even give them a good tip when one of them dries my car at the carwash, or waits on me and my beautiful, successful wife as we dine out every other night wink

My point is, I could care less about whether people or not smile pot. I will say, that the majority of people I know that still smoke pot on a regular basis on a whole achieve less in life than those that don’t. Am I a stiff? Hell no. I have a lot of fun. I have never missed smoking pot compared to the life I have now (which I would not have achieved had I not stopped the lifestyle that I was living)

Now a lot of you will immediately cry fowl over this, and try to tell me that you know hundreds of highly successful people that smoke pot daily, but you don’t. AS A WHOLE, I can guarantee you that the pot-smoking crowd does not achieve (again, as a whole, not a case by case basis) higher positions in life, either socially of financially.

But, I do not live in an area that has a lot of illegal aliens to do my dirty work for pennies on the dollar, so thank god for the local potheads! If it weren’t for them expecting less outta life, I could not afford to live as comfortably as I do.

So there, keep smoking pot, please. People like me need a lower level of society to exploit and step on.
Posted: Mon, 28th Mar 2005, 7:14pm

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aenigma

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Z28Jerry wrote:

So there, keep smoking pot, please. People like me need a lower level of society to exploit and step on.
Sounds like you should start smokin’ the chronic again. Maybe it would mellow you out. I’m surprised you haven’t had all your “good friends” arrested yet. Oh wait, then they couldn’t wash your car for you. And with no illegal aliens around you’d be screwed.

Hahahaha... tard
Posted: Mon, 28th Mar 2005, 8:05pm

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Coureur de Bois

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Z28Jerry: All I can say is that some people judge success and happiness differently than you do. That doesn't necessarily mean that they have achieved less in life than you. Not everybody should be judged by standards as high as you apparently have.
Posted: Wed, 30th Mar 2005, 11:01am

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Z28Jerry

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If you didn't detect the sarcasm in my post, it was becasue I was high when I posted it.
Posted: Sun, 24th Apr 2005, 9:04am

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Super Man

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I'm not much of one to go to forums but I had to speak up on this one and just point out a small list of facts about the use of marijuana.

Marijuana
Usually smoked as a cigarette or joint, or in a pipe or bong, marijuana has appeared in "blunts" in recent years. These are cigars that have been emptied of tobacco and re-filled with marijuana, sometimes in combination with another drug, such as crack. Some users also mix marijuana into foods or use it to brew tea.
The main active chemical in marijuana is THC (delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol). Short-term effects of marijuana use include problems with memory and learning; distorted perception; difficulty in thinking and problem-solving; loss of coordination; and increased heart rate, anxiety, and panic attacks.

Health Hazards
Effects of Marijuana on the Brain. Researchers have found that THC changes the way in which sensory information gets into and is acted on by the hippocampus. This is a component of the brain's limbic system that is crucial for learning, memory, and the integration of sensory experiences with emotions and motivations. Investigations have shown that THC suppresses neurons in the information-processing system of the hippocampus. In addition, researchers have discovered that learned behaviors, which depend on the hippocampus, also deteriorate.
Effects on the Lungs. Someone who smokes marijuana regularly may have many of the same respiratory problems that tobacco smokers have. These individuals may have daily cough and phlegm, symptoms of chronic bronchitis, and more frequent chest colds. Continuing to smoke marijuana can lead to abnormal functioning of lung tissue injured or destroyed by marijuana smoke.
Regardless of the THC content, the amount of tar inhaled by marijuana smokers and the level of carbon monoxide absorbed are three to five times greater than among tobacco smokers. This may be due to marijuana users inhaling more deeply and holding the smoke in the lungs.

Effects of Heavy Marijuana Use on Learning and Social Behavior. A study of college students has shown that critical skills related to attention, memory, and learning are impaired among people who use marijuana heavily, even after discontinuing its use for at least 24 hours. Researchers compared 65 "heavy users," who had smoked marijuana a median of 29 of the past 30 days, and 64 "light users," who had smoked a median of 1 of the past 30 days. After a closely monitored 19- to 24-hour period of abstinence from marijuana and other illicit drugs and alcohol, the undergraduates were given several standard tests measuring aspects of attention, memory, and learning. Compared to the light users, heavy marijuana users made more errors and had more difficulty sustaining attention, shifting attention to meet the demands of changes in the environment, and in registering, processing, and using information. The findings suggest that the greater impairment among heavy users is likely due to an alteration of brain activity produced by marijuana.

Longitudinal research on marijuana use among young people below college age indicates those who used have lower achievement than the non-users, more acceptance of deviant behavior, more delinquent behavior and aggression, greater rebelliousness…

SuperMan.

Last edited Wed, 27th Apr 2005, 2:18am; edited 3 times in total.

Posted: Sun, 24th Apr 2005, 9:31am

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Madmanmatty

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I smoke it whenever I can (once in a while)... it doesn't lower my productivity... oftentimes it increases my creativity!!

Pot is a fun little thing! I often find it hilarious how people who drink on a weekly/daily basis look down on marijuana use. Granted, if abused, it can cause problems, but with moderation, respect and a responsible pot-smoking attitude, it can be used to channel your emotions and feelings into some great creative energy!! And it's freaking fun!!!


-Logan-
Posted: Sun, 24th Apr 2005, 7:42pm

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A Pickle

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First off, to be sure, I am not a religious person, in the least. I say this merely to cover myself from beng indicted as a "Bible Thumper" or any other such religious isolatory term.

To begin.

It is my personal philosophy to believe that there are actions that rank far below the conduct that should be expected of a human being. Among these, inbibing in alcohol with the direct aim to become inebrated. I also believe drugs, of all kinds, are of an equally low level of behavior.

My own philosophy aside, I shall now articulate my logical stance on the topic.

orion0340 wrote:

I think people need to be educated to the fact that marijuana is not a drug. Marijuana is an herb and a flower. God put it here. If He put it here and He wants it to grow, what gives the government the right to say that God is wrong?
To acknowledge the supposed "will" of the Christian God is to destroy the First Amendment. Our government cannot and will not relinquish a ban on marijuana because God would want his plant left alone.

To commit such an act would violate the institution called the "Separation of Church and State," something that was implemented to avoid legislation based upon those same grounds: What God, any God, wants.

At last, it would be horrific for our government, to, in any way, violate the First Amendment of the United States Bill of Rights. We, as a republican society, are premitted to free worship or lack thereof, based upon the choice of the individual. To violate this amendment, or ANY amendment once is to violate it a thousand times. What is to prevent any entity from committing the same act later?

The Film wrote:

Our forefathers planted their own Marijuana gardens.
This proves what?

With all due respect, George Washington died 207 years ago at the ripe old age of 65. The marijuana that he smoked was simply a type of cigarette, with the added bonus of a lighter feeling shortly after using it.

The marijuana we know today is much different. The marijuana we know today has an active ingredient, delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol, also known as THC.

No, it is not a harmless drug. On the contrary, aside from malicious affects to the human form, it also is a danger on the road. It would be impossible to distinguish any difference between a drunk driver, or a "high" driver.

Then of course, there are the facts that bluntly state the adverse effects on the human body. The following quotes being taken from this pro-legalization site:

"Marijuana smoke irritates the lungs. Heavy exposure of the lungs to irritation such as smoke increases the likelihood of lung cancer and other lung problems."

"Marijuana speeds the heartbeat and is unhealthy for people with high blood pressure or other cardiovascular ailments."

"Marijuana does reduce the sperm count and obstruct sperm mobility in males within the normal range. These side-effects do not seem to affect human fertility, and are completely reversible thirty days after cessation of use. Marijuana, like other drugs, crosses the placenta. While the effects of this are unknown and there is no evidence that marijuana causes chromosome damage, we advise women to avoid the use of marijuana, tobacco, alcohol, or other drugs not prescribed by their physician during pregnancy and nursing. "

This is absurd. You cannot, in good faith, deny that marijuana is harmful, and then attempt to defend it.

The Film wrote:

Responsible marijuana use causes no harm to society and should be of no interest to the federal government.
Truthfully, I am a bit saddened by the fact that responsible marijuana smokers become arrested. However, they are knowingly trespassing a written code of society, one that many of us seem content to follow. For some, curious reason, our Marijuana smoking chap decides, in good faith, he is above that code.

With respects, he, and all the rest of the individuals with that mentality, may collectively enjoy their jail cell. I will continue to hold my stance on this topic, wrapped in my warm blanket, in front of my computer.

Furthermore, the key word is "Responsible." The fact of the matter is, statistics seem to show that "responsible" marijuana use is definitely in the lower 50% of net marijuana use. I might add, "responsible" marijuana use is a flaming oxymoron.

We have, as a republican society, a form of government where significant administrative power resides with the people. As such, decisions made by our representatives are reflected in us. Those same "responsible" marijuana users took part in electing the government that has rejected the use of marijuana as foolhardy and dangerous.

That, or, they are the 50% of Americans that choose to abandon the rights granted to them by one of the few republican societies in the world, and then choose to violate the code of laws we have drawn up.

The Film wrote:

When will it end?
When will it end?

For the sake of human dignity, national respectability and an ability to get anything done, let it never end. For the fools who become arrested for "responsible" marijuana use, let them continue to violate the law. Perhaps someday, when they aren't high, they will be able to understand that violating a law is grounds for punishment.

When a high school student and seven of his friends are killed because the SUV they were travelling in crossed the middle of the road and smashed into an oncoming semi, and the only explanation for the loss of control was that they were all high, that is when, hopefully, people will face the truth about marijuana.

To be sure, the above is a true story.[/quote]
Posted: Sun, 24th Apr 2005, 7:53pm

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Mellifluous

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Good points there, & well argued. I haven't changed my own stance, but you're right that responsibility is a key issue. A great friend of mine died when he was 10 in a car crash caused by the fact that the driver of the car he was in (not related) had taken the drug. That driver was extremely irresponsible for taking marijuana, & they paid for it with their lives. But like many things, marijuana is only harmful if you are irresponsible & have lots of it. As I said, there are plenty of other things that are harmful yet they are not dealt with by society in a responsible manner.
Posted: Sun, 24th Apr 2005, 7:57pm

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Coureur de Bois

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You can get off your soapbox now. This thread has been dead for along time.
Posted: Sun, 24th Apr 2005, 7:59pm

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A Pickle

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It wasn't dead when I posted. I noticed it and... posted.. in reply.

...sorry. Oh well. You're getting lots of $0.02, maybe you ... could... go buy a soda?

I like money. biggrin
Posted: Sun, 24th Apr 2005, 8:03pm

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Mellifluous

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Lol
Posted: Sun, 24th Apr 2005, 10:20pm

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Super Man

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Well I don't think you get what I was saying Madmanmatty and maybe it is because you smoke pot and maybe you are not willing to see what I was saying. What I was saying is that heavy users will receive those effects and that light users have those effects on a smaller scale.
In your case you did not see your productivity decrease that does not mean it didn't. Marijuana will change how you perceive the moment, it will actually change the electrical and chemical reactions in ones brain changing how they think, and perceive things.

Also I believe your opinion is juvenile, it is not a matter of what you believe, it is a matter of what the facts say. When you grow up you will see you are not invincible and what affects others will do the same to you. Also productivity and creativity are two very different things. Did you ever put your creative ideas to productive use?

What I posted was not about the moral argument of smoking pot; it was about how harmful it can be. About the drinking, I don't condone it either so that holds no weight with me.

For who ever rated me down, you did it unjustly and it was wrong. The rating system is not to reflect your personal opinion or life style; it is to call attention to a post that is useful, helpful, or informative. That is all my post was, it is intended to inform those who have not fully made up their mind on this matter and went to show the harmful spin on marijuana, your "little fun thing".

SuperMan.
Posted: Mon, 25th Apr 2005, 2:00am

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Madmanmatty

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Hey Supes!
I've come to terms with the harmful effects of pot, as well as many other vices, and accepted them with a clear and sober head.
It's goo to know the harmful effects, for sure. Everyone should be educated when they experiment with drugs.
I don't believe I'm invincible, I just believe that life is a place to enjoy yourself, and if the expenses are weighed, it really comes down to personal choice. There was talk of the first amendment here... if it really promotes free worship on the choice of the individual, then should it be up to the government whether pot is legal or not? Certainly saftey in public should be a concern, and heavy addictions, but if someone chooses to get high, sit on the couch and write a compelling (albiet nonsensical) short film, how does that hurt anyone? It's all contextual. If someone chooses to get high and drive around throwing marshmellows at people, that is NOT acceptable; but on the other side, if someone isn't harming or imposing on other people's lives, then it should not be an issue of legalities.
I don't believe my opinion is juvinile Supes. Maybe that is because it's MY opinion, but I tend to believe I've put a decent amount of thought into my choices. I may come across as a hooligan with all my fun-lovin' praise for the drug, but really, why not have fun? It's ok to have a good time!!

I've defintetly put my creative ideas to productive use. Have you seen the trailer for Macbeth 3000 on this site? I wrote that drunk, and although I admit some of it isn't as good as it could have been, I don't blame my vices so much as I blame my inexperience. (but that's what learning is all about!)

I wrote another short completely high one night (incidentally about drugs) which I plan to shoot this summer. I've also written and brainstormed many off-beat ideas and prose while stoned. That is because I moderate my dosage. I use it to boost creativity and then leave it so I can act upon that inspiration. It's all very specific to the individual. But that fact that I have a feature film which I wrote and acted in coming out this summer makes me very proud, and I view that as an accomplishment.
Did you know that some religions have been based around marijuana, and many renowned poets wrote thier best work while under the influence of drugs? I'm not condoning the usage, just pointing out some of the positive effects.

I appreciate your input here as far as showing the harmful side. It's very important when considering trying weed to look at the negative effects. It can be a powerful ally or a deadly foe, depending on how you use it. If you are reading this and considering trying pot, but are unsure of how you will react, don't do it. If you feel that you can handle it, try a little in a SAFE enviroment. Do it with your CLOSE friends, in familiar surroundings. And don't do too much. It only takes a little the first time! smile

It can be fun, and it can be dreadful. It's up to the USER to make sure things don't get out of hand.

That being said, I'm now going to check on the status of a short film that had NOTHING to do with drugs, and I'm also quite pleased with. You don't NEED drugs. Period. They can be fun, yes, but goddamn it, THINK before you do ANYTHING, especially related to substances.

-Logan-
Posted: Mon, 25th Apr 2005, 3:26am

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Super Man

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I would like to start by saying that I do not condone the use of any substance, but I hear your point of view. I have a small list of points to make but I feel they are needed. First you may believe that your decision to continue to smoke pot is in a clear frame of mind, but as I posted earlier, the affect of pot will continue to affect you long after use and if you reflect on the use of marijuana while your hippocampus is affected your view will be possibly...shady at best. I'm not saying that is the case here but it may very well be.

The statement that if one chooses to use the drug in small doses and remain tucked away in their home, and not injuring any one is the right thing to do is not exactly true. The affects are far more severe to the user then most people are aware, those risks should be serious enough to consider not using the drug all together. But I am not here to tell you how to live. You have made your opinion clear and I try not push mine onto others but I do try to inform them of the risk just incase.

Although your short film accomplishments may have been under the influence, it could also be said that there is no proof of that fact. But that is beside the point. The point is clinical studies prove that in the majority of the cases marijuana does inhibit productivity... Congratulations Madmanmatty you are an exception.

As I stated, I am not here to force you to change the way you live your life, but perhaps I feel so strongly in this matter because I have been through this, now no I have not done and drugs, but I have seen and helped lots of friends come back from substance abuse and even had a friend almost die in my arms from an over dose. Now some may say that pot is not that bad, but I say this to them, all of my friends that went down that road started with pot, which has proven to be addictive.

I realize that not everyone has been through that kind of thing and may not feel like I do as a result. But from the standing point of someone who has almost lost someone, my advice is stay away. To anyone who is making up their mind from what is said here, please take what I say here under strong consideration.

SuperMan.
Posted: Mon, 25th Apr 2005, 3:51am

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Atom

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Pot, regardless of 'the facts' is harmful.Anyone who says that it isn't.....well............they're smoking it, so who knows if they're opinion is valid anyway?

I've seen it really ferk people up, and destroy their lives/high-school careers. Why should something that has such a negative impact be legal? So you can go get 'happy' and wash away reality for a such small ammount of time that by the end of it you just want to light up again?

Responsible marijuana use?

Sure. Just like there's responsible murder-use, right?


Pathetic.

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Posted: Mon, 25th Apr 2005, 3:55am

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CX3

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Have you ever smoked atom? (Not trying to sound like a douche bag, I'm just wondering.)
Posted: Mon, 25th Apr 2005, 5:54am

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Madmanmatty

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atom wrote:

Pot, irregardless of 'the facts' is harmful.Anyone who says that it isn't.....well............they're smoking it, so who knows if they're opinion is valid anyway?
So.... you're saying people who smoke pot should NOT be regarded because thier opinions are invalid?
I can agree with Supes on the dangers of pot, and the choices and wisdom he presents (making a great side on this debate), but you are outlandish to assume that someone who smokes pot becomes invalid. In fact, although biased, thier opinions fuel the liberal side of this debate...

I've seen it really ferk people up, and destroy their lives/high-school careers. Why should something that has such a negative impact be legal? So you can go get 'happy' and wash away reality for a such small ammount of time that by the end of it you just want to light up again?
I've seen the same thing. I've seen it with drinking, video games, laziness, psychological disorders, bullying, and a plethora of other "unhappy" things. Pot isn't exclusive. Alcohol is legal and if abused in the same fashion as pot often is, CAN lead to a quicker, messier end.
I used to smoke a lot... I have smoked once in almost 5 months and I'm fine with that. I have no urge to light again, but I would be more than willing to. It's not destroying my life, it's not raping my dreams, and it certainly isn't consuming my soul. When people shoot people do you blame the guns? Granted, the guns should be moderated and controlled to a degree that will lessen the shootings, but it's the people who USE the guns who are the PROBLEM. Same with pot- if you are weak and using pot as a "helper" then you are going to fall into a trap. If you are strong, happy and responsible, you can have a good time. Which brings me to my next point...

Responsible marijuana use?
Sure. Just like there's responsible murder-use, right?
Pathetic.
Comparing marijuana to murder is like comparing a vaccuum cleaner to a church. They are completely different things. Funny enough, I bet you probably think America is over in Iraq kicking ass for the good of the world? Well guess what.... that's murder... maybe responsibly, maybe not... I don't know, I'm Canadian. smile
The point is, calling people pathetic when comparing something you OBVIOUSLY don't know anything about is downright mean.
Be nice. This is a debate, not a debauchery.

-Logan-
Posted: Mon, 25th Apr 2005, 2:50pm

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Steeb

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Super Man wrote:

What I posted was not about the moral argument of smoking pot; it was about how harmful it can be. About the drinking, I don't condone it either so that holds no weight with me.
Whether you condone the use of alcohol or not is irrelevant. The point trying to be made was that alcohol, a substance that is arguably more dangerous than marijuana (you can over-dose on alcohol, but can not on pot), is socially acceptable and legal, barring certain restrictions. Why not simply impose the same regulations on marijuana and take the power and revenue out of criminals' hands and into the national treasury? People can lecture all day long about how harmful it is - the fact of the matter is that alcohol, tobacco, automobiles, Tylenol, red meat & sugar are all harmful if misused, yet they are legal and accepted in society. If any lesson were to be learned from Prohibition, it's that people will get what they want from legitimate resources or otherwise, regardless of the morally-imposed laws. It did not work with alcohol, it has not worked with marijuana.

atom wrote:

Pot, irregardless of 'the facts' is harmful.
You tend to lose credibility when you use words like "irregardless." hugegrin


atom wrote:

I've seen it really ferk people up, and destroy their lives/high-school careers. Why should something that has such a negative impact be legal? So you can go get 'happy' and wash away reality for a such small ammount of time that by the end of it you just want to light up again?
See, you and your friends shouldn't be smoking, drinking, or any of that. You are still kids. This kind of stuff is for adults. Most people proposing legalization would argue that there should be age restrictions, just like alcohol.


atom wrote:

Responsible marijuana use?

Sure. Just like there's responsible murder-use, right?


Pathetic.
Are you telling me you've never seen your parents have a glass of wine? Or your dad have a beer? How about an aunt or uncle? I have a hard time believing that you've never seen someone responsibly use alcohol at some point in your life. Yet people abuse it everyday, killing themselves and innocent bystanders in alcohol-related car accidents. Does this mean we should outlaw alcohol and call those who continue to use it pathetic?

Last edited Mon, 25th Apr 2005, 3:02pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Mon, 25th Apr 2005, 3:02pm

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Mellifluous

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atom wrote:

Why should something that has such a negative impact be legal?
Why should cigarettes be legal?

Why should alcohol be legal?

They have negative impacts.
Posted: Mon, 25th Apr 2005, 3:24pm

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sk8street65

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I totally agree dude
Posted: Mon, 25th Apr 2005, 3:49pm

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sidewinder

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SuperUser

Haha, look at all these -1's flying around.

Simply put: Everything? Legal.

My life, not yours, let me do what I want. If I impede on your rights in any way or involuntarily harm you in any way (involuntary is key. Breathing secondhand smoke in a restaurant is a voluntary act), come down hard on me.

That's essentially the libertarian argument summed up in a few simple lines. I could really make it about five times longer and sound much more sophisticated, but it really boils down to that argument. Sure, there's a few issues here and there that make this more complicated, but I'm not really going to spend much time writing about them here, online.

Oh, and reports about secondhand smoke killing people? Quite honestly one of the biggest loads of bull out there. It's been a while since I read the essays ripping apart those studies, but the assumptions they make are completely ridiculous.

Oh, I suppose you'd like to know where I'm coming from on this, hm? Drinking: Occasionally. Drugs: No. Tobacco: Occasionally.

Last edited Mon, 25th Apr 2005, 9:46pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Mon, 25th Apr 2005, 4:22pm

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Waser

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sidewinder pretty much summed up my view on this whole shebang, so you may wonder why i bothered posting this at all. the thing is
Waser throws a stack of papers at you and disapears out the nearest window
Posted: Mon, 25th Apr 2005, 4:56pm

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Arktic

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Super Man wrote:

pot, which has proven to be addictive
No, you're wrong about that.

Why? Because for a chemical substance to be considered physically 'addictive' in the scientific sense of the word, it must fufill these three criteria:

1) It must create tollerance;
2) It must be psychologically reinforcing;
3) It must produce withdrawl symptoms if it is not used after a continued period of habitual use.

Though it is psychologically reinforcing (in that the experience is considered pleasurable, so you wish to repeat the experience), tollerance to the drug is never entirely created, and there are certainly no withdrawl symptoms associated with even the heaviest users, hence it can not be considered to create physical dependence/addiction. This differs greatly with other drugs such as caffiene, alcohol and nicotine, which are proven to be physically addictive substances, though people still believe that cannabis can be physically addictive.

Likewise, many people have the misconception that you can OD on cannabis - which isn't true: no deaths from 'cannabis overdose' have ever been recorded. Scientist have calculated the 'lethal dosage' level (LD50) of cannabis to be several hundreds to thousands of times over the 'effective dosage' level (ED50); essentially, this means that you'd have to smoke hundreds to thousands of joints before you died of a cannabis overdose. Alcohol, on the other hand, has an ED50-LD50 ratio of about 1-4 to 1-10; in other words, you can kill yourself very, very easily with legal drugs such as alcohol, but it's damned near impossible to kill yourself from a cannabis overdose.

Cheers,
Arktic.
Posted: Mon, 25th Apr 2005, 6:27pm

Post 54 of 172

Madmanmatty

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Arktic wrote:

Super Man wrote:

pot, which has proven to be addictive
No, you're wrong about that.

Why? Because for a chemical substance to be considered physically 'addictive' in the scientific sense of the word, it must fufill these three criteria:

1) It must create tollerance;
2) It must be psychologically reinforcing;
3) It must produce withdrawl symptoms if it is not used after a continued period of habitual use.
Actually, though the drug itself may not contain an addictive chemical, the results of the drug's use can be addictive:

1) Weed do0es build up a tolerance. It stays in your system quite a while after smoking, and if you smoke on a regular basis you will need to smoke more to get high. I remember I used to have to smoke a whole joint myself to get high (bloody college), but now it takes two or three puffs, because I haven't smoked in a while.
2)When you smoke, it increases the number of seratonin in your brain. (that's the happy chemical in your brain)... this is what creates the sensation of being "high". When you continously abuse pot, your body will adapt to the new artificial level of seratonin, and reduced it's own production. Hence:
3) When coming off of a large scale, long term "binge" you will feel depressed for a long period of time, due to low seratonin. This often creates the illusion that pot becomes the only happy thing in life, but the effects do wear off in about a month. That's my experience, anyway... body chemistry changes from person to person.

Anyway, no, you cannot overdoes on cannibis, but you should'nt even be smoking that much that you need to worry about that.

Remember kids- use the three R's
Respect
Responsibility
Reefer
smile

-Logan-
Posted: Mon, 25th Apr 2005, 9:35pm

Post 55 of 172

Arktic

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Actually, though the drug itself may not contain an addictive chemical, the results of the drug's use can be addictive
It could be considered correct to suggest that the drug can be habbit forming, and may lead to psychological dependence; however, it is entirely incorrect to suggest that it is 'addictive', as it simply is not.

The seretonin argument you've presented does not hold, as leading psychiatrists have suggested, the 'withdrawl symptoms' caused by a lack of chemicals which increase seretonin in the brain are not true withdrawl symptoms in that "dependency in the sense of having a powerful urge to continue a drug, often for more gratification, does not happen". At last year's Royal College of Psychiatrists' anual meeting, it was proposed that SSRI (specific seretonin re-uptake inhibitors, anti-depressant drugs) addiction is a myth - and if chemicals which are designed specifically to increase seretonin levels are non-addictive, then it's highly unlikely that THC could be considered so.

Also, whoever is rating these posts down, please stop. It's abuse of the ratings system to rate a post down just because you disagree with the poster's opinion. I've reported it to the moderators, and if they find out that it's the same person abusing it multiple times, then I think they may well take action (as stated in the ratings FAQ).

Cheers,
Arktic.
Posted: Mon, 25th Apr 2005, 11:03pm

Post 56 of 172

ben3308

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Rating: -2

Jesus Christ, y'all.

Pot is illegal.

Alcohol and Tobacco products aren't.

They all have negative effects.

But saying that pot should be legal because alcohol and tobacco are is just a stupid rationale. Does anybody realize that all that these things can do is mess you up? I mean, besides glaucoma sufferers, there is absolutely no benefit to using these substances, especially the illicit ones. Just because two harmful products are legal now doesn't mean that it's okay to add a third one. We want progress in our society, not corrosion. You want pot? Well be one few misguided people who smokes it and buy it illegally; be my guest. But don't screw the rest of us over and market something harmful, spreading it throughout our society.

Oh, and pot's not addictive? Wow! That totally makes it healthy and okay to use! For those who think pot should be legalized: Well, you're just foolish, callow-minded potheads, there's not much more to say. So what if alcohol is legal? That doesn't mean pot should be. In fact, it is some people's opinion that alcohol shouldn't be illegal, hence prohibition in some areas. And don't give me crap that because I haven't smoked pot I don't know how bad it is. If it can hurt even one person, it can potentially hurt everyone.

Potheads, keep smoking your pot, I guess; because there's not much that can be done to sway you, apparently. Keep poisoning your bodies and shortening your life expectancy, I really don't care. Ruin your own life, not the life of everyone around you.
Posted: Mon, 25th Apr 2005, 11:24pm

Post 57 of 172

Coureur de Bois

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ben: are you trying to be a tool?
Posted: Mon, 25th Apr 2005, 11:32pm

Post 58 of 172

Rawree

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Ben: You are actually providing no evidence to support your claims that smoking weed will shorten your life expectancy and ruin the lives of yourself and the people around you.

I think that you're also being a tad melodramatic, perhaps because you are not so well informed on the subject (I won't pretend to be an expert because....I'm not): I know a fair number of people who have "experience" with cannabis and from what I can tell their not ruining their lives or the lives of anyone they know.

Your argument the there is no benefit really doesn't hold up; I don't believe that the movie industry does anything to benefit society, I don't remember Jurassic Park being involved in finding a cure for cancer and the Matrix certainly didn't bring about world peace so perhaps movies should be banned - their only purpose is to entertain people, make them feel good and make the people at the top obscenely wealthy (and what's weed for?)

I honestly believe that people should be allowed to make their own decisions and if they decide to *ahem* "ruin their lives" then that's down to them, people arn't forced to smoke cigarettes (almost all cigarette advertising is prohibited) and I would imagine similar guidelines would be put in place if Canabis was ever legalised.

I have to say, and I in no way mean this as a personal attack, that you don't know what you're really talking about (I apologise for the condescending tone) mainly due to your misinformed or baseless "facts" and to be honest, the fact that you stereotype everyone who has ever smoked a joint as a "pothead".
Posted: Mon, 25th Apr 2005, 11:39pm

Post 59 of 172

Arktic

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Ben - there are MANY things which can hurt people.

However, we leave such choices as, for example, the decision to walk or to drive a car to work. We KNOW that driving cars polutes the atmosphere, but many individuals decide that the benefits outweigh the costs of driving.

And you argue that pot has no benefits. Many people would disagree - it helps you relax, it can make you less stressed and more social, it allows some people to feel more creative etc. So for some people, it clearly does have benefits.

Cheers,
Arktic.
Posted: Mon, 25th Apr 2005, 11:49pm

Post 60 of 172

Atom

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orion0340 wrote:

ben: are you trying to be a tool?
orion, I can't help but think that you're just a pothead teen. What's the point in this announcement, anyway? How does it benefit you? Why are you so gung-ho for legalizing pot? I'm guessing that the legal age (if passed) would be around 21. Now that wouldn't help yoiu, would it? Nah. So, my own personal conclusion would be that you're just in it to get more dealers out so you can go light-up and kill your brain.

Great, good for you.

But, aside from all of the contrasting facts I've heard thus far, it is still against my moral and religious belief to smoke pot, and that known, I never will smoke it.

And personally I think its very petty to say that "if you don't smoke it, how do you know that it's so harmful"? I DO have all the facts, but why should I supply them? Surely those who are pro/against pot would no the facts, right? So how do I know its bad?

My parents and teachers and church leaders tell me it is. And gee, get this:




I frickin believe them.
Posted: Mon, 25th Apr 2005, 11:52pm

Post 61 of 172

Arktic

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Atom - I think you're entirely missing the point.

Nobody is denying that pot is harmfull. It indeed is, to an extent. But why should that determine if I am allowed to partake in a particular activity or not? Rawree's analogy is great - could it not be argued that too much time watching movies will strain the eyes etc, and that movies have no positive benefits? Yet you don't see it fit to prohibit my choices over watching movies or not.

Arktic.
Posted: Tue, 26th Apr 2005, 12:08am

Post 62 of 172

Atom

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Arktic wrote:

Atom - I think you're entirely missing the point.

Nobody is denying that pot is harmfull. It indeed is, to an extent. But why should that determine if I am allowed to partake in a particular activity or not? Rawree's analogy is great - could it not be argued that too much time watching movies will strain the eyes etc, and that movies have no positive benefits? Yet you don't see it fit to prohibit my choices over watching movies or not.

Arktic.
First off:
I completely respect everyones opinion here, and hold you all in high regard. I mean no offense, but my views are very iron-clad, and drugs are a big deal with me.
The difference between movies and pot is that pot has a LONG-TERM AFFECT, and REAL harm on your biggest physical asset, your brain. It KILLS it. KILLS it.
But then again, I'm not trying to say that its harmful. I KNOW that, and so does EVERYBODY else. I'm saying that it is against all that I stand for, and from how I've personally seen it RUIN, yes, RUIN SOMEBODY'S ENTIRE LIFE, I have to say: Whats the deal?

(not towards Arktic, comin next...)
Sure, you can smoke pot, every once in a while. I think its concentrated evil you're puffing. But it's not my call. I'll let YOU decide whether to do it or not. YOU. But I think, like all things, there should be a punishment to an extent, and jailtime is a very small one.

I just don't want to see my little brother and sister wasting away on pot and screwing around with thier life in ten years because they grew up on/with POTHEADS (because that's what they'll become) in the cesspool society has become.



Yep, it's still






pathetic.

Last edited Tue, 26th Apr 2005, 12:15am; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Tue, 26th Apr 2005, 12:15am

Post 63 of 172

Arktic

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I just don't want to see my little brother and sister wasting away on pot and screwing around with thier life in ten years because they grew up on/with POTHEADS (because that's what they'll become) in the cesspool society has become.
Then teach them to be responsible. I'm certain I've not screwed up my life, and neither have the majority of my friends who smoke. For some people, responsibility is not using cannabis - and that's fine by me. But for others, responsibility is using cannabis in moderation, taking care not to hurt others. That too, to me, is fine.

I think you have to understand that not all people who use cannabis are failures. Some of them might be - but as far as I am aware (and as far as the statistics show), the majority of people who try cannabis in their lifetime don't turn into 'potheads' and waste away. It is entirely possible to lead a normal life, and to smoke cannabis.

Arktic.
Posted: Tue, 26th Apr 2005, 12:34am

Post 64 of 172

Atom

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Arktic wrote:

I just don't want to see my little brother and sister wasting away on pot and screwing around with thier life in ten years because they grew up on/with POTHEADS (because that's what they'll become) in the cesspool society has become.
Then teach them to be responsible. I'm certain I've not screwed up my life, and neither have the majority of my friends who smoke. For some people, responsibility is not using cannabis - and that's fine by me. But for others, responsibility is using cannabis in moderation, taking care not to hurt others. That too, to me, is fine.

I think you have to understand that not all people who use cannabis are failures. Some of them might be - but as far as I am aware (and as far as the statistics show), the majority of people who try cannabis in their lifetime don't turn into 'potheads' and waste away.

Arktic.
I'm aware that you're not a failure, man, of course not.

But, after a while, by doing it, YOU WILL BE.
Moderation doesn't really matter if it's still long-term, does it? I'm actually not quite sure.

A few days ago, some people I very closely know, while I was with them, were offered cigarettes, BY A GROWN MAN, while we were buying stuff in a local soda shop. The thing that really got me was, it was the clerk who not only offered it, but got it out and spouted about the greatness of it and how WE should buy some. He oulled each pack out and let us review and sniff them.

I immediately said I was disgusted and left. Just plain left. However, after all of the sweet-talk my friends had heard (and yes, they were seduced by them, and provoked by the clerk) succumbed, and bought some.

I have never seen anything worse in my life. It was HORRIBLE.
And the fact that some person, knowing very well the effects of it, and that it's ILLEGAL, would sell cigs to kids. Yes, teens, but nonetheless, KIDS. IN FRONT OF OTHER PEOPLE. If this can happen, then it can happen with pot.
Posted: Tue, 26th Apr 2005, 12:44am

Post 65 of 172

Arktic

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But, after a while, by doing it, YOU WILL BE.
Not really. Some of the most successfull people on earth have been habbitual cannabis users - just look at all the famous musicians who have admitted to smoking cannabis.

I don't mean to suggest that smoking it makes you successfull, but rather that smoking it will not neccesarily make you into a faliure.

Moderation doesn't really matter if it's still long-term, does it? I'm actually not quite sure.
It does matter - a person who drinks one glass of wine every week, for the whole of their life, will not suffer the same adverse effects as someone who drinks a lot at once, habbitually. This is also true for cannabis use - a person who only uses it occasionally will not suffer the negative effects to the same extent that a person who smokes a lot at a time, many times over will.

Like you, I'm disgusted that an adult in a position of responsibility would try and entice kids into smoking. That's downright wrong - have you thought about reporting the incident to anyone? I know I would think seriously about it.

Cheers,
Arktic.
Posted: Tue, 26th Apr 2005, 12:48am

Post 66 of 172

Super Man

Force: 96 | Joined: 26th May 2004 | Posts: 17

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Let me clear a few things up here. When I say I do not condone the use of alcohol it means that I would rather it be gone as well so in turn that argument holds no weight with me. Further more you can over dose on marijuana, when you smoke to much you drasticaly change how many parts of you brain work causing is some cases over dose like effects of a different degree. Also about "power revenue", criminals will still make the money, they will just do it in the open blatenly selling to whom ever they want.

Your statement (seeb69) that alcohol, tobacco, automobiles, Tylenol, red meat and sugar are all harmful if misused, is slightly off key from the truth. While you are correct in saying that, you leave out that they are not all harmful when used normally (tobacco excluded) and that marijuana is harmful the first time and every time to follow.

Your comment on how some people involved in the discussion are still miners, is a shabby one at best. I myself am not a child and belong at the adults table.

Now for what was said about marijuana not being addictive. If the fact that it changes the serotonin levels so much that is causes a level of dependency to the drug, forcing the user to use more often to bring their serotonin levels up and them self’s out of their depression. Then maybe it would help to know that most kids and teens that enter into rehab do so because of an addiction to marijuana over many other drugs.

To who ever said, and continue to say, that tobacco, caffeine, and alcohol can have considerably harmful effects compared to marijuana, yet still remain legal then marijuana should be to. I ask; where do we draw the line? If this is an acceptable standard of judging matters such as this, then what is to prevent substances like cocaine, crack, and other various methamphetamines from being legal? If you are saying no to this right now then ask yourself, what's the difference? Besides the obvious damages that they are known to do that marijuana does not, the ethical stand point that accompanies the argument is the same. Also, although not agreeable in my standard, I feel I should point out that red wine helps oxygenate blood and stave off heart attack.

Also to finish this post off, I have said and so has arktic, try not to abuse the rating system for your own personal beliefs. If you don't know how the system is to be used then read one of my previous posts, or read the rating system FAQ.

SuperMan.
Posted: Tue, 26th Apr 2005, 1:00am

Post 67 of 172

Arktic

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Super Man -

Though I respect your viewpoints, what you're saying is not scientifically valid.

The LD50 level of cannabis is EXTREMEMLY high. Therefore it is scientificlly impossible to overdose on cannabis. No matter what effects you experience, you can not kill yourself through ingesting cannabis (you're much more likely to die from a carbon monoxide overdose by the time you've smoked the 800+ joints in a very short space of time that it would take to kill you!).

Secondly, cannabis simply is not a physically addictive drug. That's scientific fact. You can not become physically dependent upon the substance.

And this is the answer to -
I ask; where do we draw the line? If this is an acceptable standard of judging matters such as this, then what is to prevent substances like cocaine, crack, and other various methamphetamines from being legal?
Cannabis is not lethal, and cannabis is not addictive. That's what sets it apart from the other drugs you've mentioned - and that's scientific fact. To argue otherwise is plain wrong.

I understand if you have objections to using particular drugs etc - but why should that determine my right to ingest a substance I know will not kill me (immediatley, anyway), and I can't become addicted to? I feel that it should be up to the individual to weigh up the costs and benefits of using such a substance.

Cheers,
Arktic.

Last edited Tue, 26th Apr 2005, 1:25am; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Tue, 26th Apr 2005, 1:00am

Post 68 of 172

Coureur de Bois

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I've always liked this quote:

"See I think drugs have done some good things for us, I really do. And if you dont believe drugs have done good things for us - do me a favour - go home tonight, take all your albums, all your tapes and all your CDs and burm 'em. Cause you know what, the musicians who made all that great music thats enhanced your lives throughout the years... real fucken high on drugs."

Edit: Arktic- I believe you have to smoke somewhere around 80 lbs of high-grade cannabis in one sitting to overdose...
Posted: Tue, 26th Apr 2005, 1:23am

Post 69 of 172

Arktic

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SuperUser

Ok - here's an off topic note to all posters.

The ratings system has been abused throughout this thread. As such, all the ratings have been removed, which is a shame.

I'd like to point out to you a quote from the Ratings FAQ :

You are not voting about if you agree or disagree.

Several members (two in particular) appear to have been going through the posts and rating according to whether they agree or disagree with the sentiment expressed. This is not how the ratings system should be used. As it says in that ratings FAQ, those who abuse the system will have their ratings privaledges revoked.

Please don't let it carry on. I urge you all to read the ratings FAQ if you're not sure what criteria you're supposed to be rating on.

Cheers,
Arktic.
Posted: Tue, 26th Apr 2005, 1:43am

Post 70 of 172

Madmanmatty

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Super Man wrote:

Let me clear a few things up here. When I say I do not condone the use of alcohol it means that I would rather it be gone as well so in turn that argument holds no weight with me. Further more you can over dose on marijuana, when you smoke to much you drasticaly change how many parts of you brain work causing is some cases over dose like effects of a different degree. Also about "power revenue", criminals will still make the money, they will just do it in the open blatenly selling to whom ever they want.
If it were legalized and controlled, the criminals would not have to sell it because the government would be doing that. Then, instead of using weed money to buy guns and harder drugs, they would not be criminals anymore.

Your statement (seeb69) that alcohol, tobacco, automobiles, Tylenol, red meat and sugar are all harmful if misused, is slightly off key from the truth. While you are correct in saying that, you leave out that they are not all harmful when used normally (tobacco excluded) and that marijuana is harmful the first time and every time to follow.
Marijuana isn't as harmful as tobacco. Even over long periods of usage.

Your comment on how some people involved in the discussion are still miners, is a shabby one at best. I myself am not a child and belong at the adults table.
What are they serving today at the adult's table? Pork? Chicken? Personally, I'd rather eat at the kids table... I still make faces in my mashed potatos. It's fun. lol.

Now for what was said about marijuana not being addictive. If the fact that it changes the serotonin levels so much that is causes a level of dependency to the drug, forcing the user to use more often to bring their serotonin levels up and them self’s out of their depression. Then maybe it would help to know that most kids and teens that enter into rehab do so because of an addiction to marijuana over many other drugs.
This is true (as far as I know), but this could be avoided if proper education (not propeganda) was given to youths. People who get into rehab abuse substances, but if they were given the benefit of the doubt and educated on proper use, there would be less cases in rehab... problem is, we're (society) so shy on this issue, we just say "weed is the devil!!!". We need to pull up our belts and admit that weed is around, will be around, and educate ourselves, rather than choose ignorance and turn away.

To who ever said, and continue to say, that tobacco, caffeine, and alcohol can have considerably harmful effects compared to marijuana, yet still remain legal then marijuana should be to. I ask; where do we draw the line? If this is an acceptable standard of judging matters such as this, then what is to prevent substances like cocaine, crack, and other various methamphetamines from being legal? If you are saying no to this right now then ask yourself, what's the difference? Besides the obvious damages that they are known to do that marijuana does not, the ethical stand point that accompanies the argument is the same. Also, although not agreeable in my standard, I feel I should point out that red wine helps oxygenate blood and stave off heart attack.
Jesus liked wine. Should we just edit that out of the bible and replace it with "fruit punch"??? In some cultures, drinking (or pot smoking) is a bond of friendship. It lowers inhibitions, and brings out people's inner-most desires. People get comfortable when drunk or high, they have a good time. Unfortunately, there are bad people who don't know how to control themselves, and they make everyone else look bad.

Also to finish this post off, I have said and so has arktic, try not to abuse the rating system for your own personal beliefs. If you don't know how the system is to be used then read one of my previous posts, or read the rating system FAQ.

SuperMan.
Yes, please stop voting for this thread.

No offense meant here Supes, Atom or Ben or anyone else... I'm just trying to show a point of view... but you guys are understanding anyway.. I'm not trying to change your views, just ease your perceptions. No matter what the lady at church says, you have to keep into account that even the bible had a biased opinion. I used to be against all the things I do now, but with age comes change. All I can say is, no matter what, be flexible of mind, because you may miss out on a lot of fun (not drugs! just fun in general).

-Logan-
Posted: Tue, 26th Apr 2005, 1:47am

Post 71 of 172

CX3

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But, after a while, by doing it, YOU WILL BE.
lol, no you will not man.
Posted: Tue, 26th Apr 2005, 4:35am

Post 72 of 172

Atom

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Arktic wrote:

Ok - here's an off topic note to all posters.

The ratings system has been abused throughout this thread. As such, all the ratings have been removed, which is a shame.

I'd like to point out to you a quote from the Ratings FAQ :

You are not voting about if you agree or disagree.

Several members (two in particular) appear to have been going through the posts and rating according to whether they agree or disagree with the sentiment expressed. This is not how the ratings system should be used. As it says in that ratings FAQ, those who abuse the system will have their ratings privaledges revoked.

Please don't let it carry on. I urge you all to read the ratings FAQ if you're not sure what criteria you're supposed to be rating on.

Cheers,
Arktic.
Word.

Last edited Tue, 26th Apr 2005, 12:53pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Tue, 26th Apr 2005, 5:16am

Post 73 of 172

Waser

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Rating: +1

want to see the greatest argument for the legalization of marijuana? Rent Harold and Kumar Go To White Castle

CX3 wrote:

But, after a while, by doing it, YOU WILL BE.
lol, no you will not man.
no, no no, no, n,o , CX3, when something's in caps, it means IT'S A FACT
Posted: Tue, 26th Apr 2005, 5:36am

Post 74 of 172

The Artur

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I havent realy read much of this topic, but i dont smoke it, and i've heard some people say that "God made marijuana" , but that dosent mean it was intended to be smoked and God didnt invent smoking smile

Yeah, i've pretty much been wanting to say that since this topic began biggrin
Posted: Tue, 26th Apr 2005, 10:50am

Post 75 of 172

Super Man

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Well it looks like I have a few thins to clear up again lol, don't worry it is fun. So let’s get started.

Madmenmatty, you wrote "If it were legalized and controlled, the criminals would not have to sell it because the government would be doing that. Then, instead of using weed money to buy guns and harder drugs, they would not be criminals anymore."
The criminals, or former criminals if it is legalized lol, will not stop selling the drug if it is legal because they don't care, they don't do it as a service to people, and they will not stop if it becomes legal, they just want the money. Also you are miss informed if you think they only sell marijuana, because the majority of them do not.

Further more, Madmenmatty, you said "Marijuana isn't as harmful as tobacco. Even over long periods of usage". Please go back and read my first post in this topic some of the facts are there. But I did say that the carbon monoxide is three to five times greater than among tobacco users.

Also when you said "What are they serving today at the adult's table? Pork? Chicken? Personally, I'd rather eat at the kids table... I still make faces in my mashed potatos. It's fun. lol.", you may have put that in a form of a joke but what you really did was try to discredit what I actually said by doing that, harping over what I said does not help anything, but if you truly do not know what I meant, it was to say that I am an adult and come from an experienced point of view and my opinion is not juvenile.

Moving on, when you stated that "Jesus liked wine. Should we just edit that out of the bible and replace it with "fruit punch"??? In some cultures, drinking (or pot smoking) is a bond of friendship. It lowers inhibitions, and brings out people's inner-most desires. People get comfortable when drunk or high, they have a good time. Unfortunately, there are bad people who don't know how to control themselves, and they make everyone else look bad." I don't want to bring religion into this since I am not religious, but since you said it I will go on, I'm not saying that all information pertaining to alcohol and drugs should be re-written or removed from literature, also how drugs and alcohol was regarded in those days were very different from our own time, and I would like to think people hove come further then that as a people. Even with that said I will point out that I posted a positive side of red wine when I stated that it oxygenates blood and staves of heart attack, which means it reduces the risk of heart attack.

Yes I agree with you when you write about voting on this topic, but if you were directing that toward me, I will remind, or inform you that since I am not a gold user I can not rate up or down. So I guess that means I am not in that list lol.

SuperMan.
Posted: Tue, 26th Apr 2005, 5:27pm

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Arktic

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Super Man -

You suggest that the criminals who peddle cannabis wouldn't stop if it was legalised, I think you're wrong, and history seems to suggest that you might well be too. For example, look at prohibition. During the days when alcohol was outlawed, there was a booming black market trade in the stuff. But do you get many people selling home-brew alcohol these days? No, because it's better, and cheaper, to buy it from shops where it is freely available. As such, if we legalised cannabis, why would there still be a black market for it, if it were available better and cheaper from reputable sources?

Furthermore, no, many drug dealers do not only deal cannabis - but if we decriminalised cannabis trade, then the law enforcement agencies would have more time and money free to persue people making and selling other drugs that ARE addictive and dangerous.

Cheers,
Arktic.

By the way, I've notified the people involved with the ratings - hopefully it was just a misunderstanding on their part, and so it shouldn't happen again smile
Posted: Wed, 27th Apr 2005, 2:10am

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Super Man

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Well you are less the half way right when you say that arkic. Let’s get down to why. When you say that in the old day alcohol was outlawed and hit the black market hard and that it stopped when it became legal, you are half right, but only in your historical reference, there are many people who still make moonshine and moonshine like alcohols in there own home, and they even sell to their friends and even children. I know this because a few years ago my friend purchased it from several different...I'll just say non-convicted criminals. It is safe to assume that there will be nothing to preventing that from happening with marijuana, since it already is occurring. Or would you be surprised if I told that most of the clientele of drug dealers are miners. Also you noticed the change because they have changed the face of selling alcohol by opening up stores so there is no need to sell it black market. But that does not make it unequivocally right. If it were legal and an age limit were put on it, children will just acquire it through the same means they do for alcohol.

I will continue this post by showing some research and papers done by a reputable person.

Ph.D., D.D.S. Glen R. Hanson, form the National Institute on Drug Abuse wrote:

"In the 1970s, the baby boom generation was coming of age, and its drug of choice was marijuana. By 1979, more than 60 percent of 12th-graders had tried marijuana at least once in their lives. From this peak, the percentage of 12th-graders who had ever used marijuana decreased for more than a decade, dropping to a low of 33 percent in 1992. However, in 1993, first-time marijuana use by 12th-graders was on the upswing, reaching 50 percent by 1997. Although the percentage of 12th-graders who have experience with marijuana has remained roughly level since then, there is still reason to be concerned. In 1999, more than 2 million Americans used marijuana for the first time. Two-thirds of them were between the ages of 12 and 17. Furthermore, the marijuana that is available today can be 5 times more potent than the marijuana of the 1970s.

The use of marijuana can produce adverse physical, mental, emotional, and behavioral changes, and - contrary to popular belief - it can be addictive. Marijuana smoke, like cigarette smoke, can harm the lungs. The use of marijuana can impair short-term memory, verbal skills, and judgment and distort perception. It also may weaken the immune system and possibly increase a user's likelihood of developing cancer, finally, the increasing use of marijuana by very young teens may have a profoundly negative effect upon their development.

We hope that this research report will help make readers aware of our current knowledge of marijuana abuse and its harmful effects."

In a different article Glen wrote:

"THC owes many of its effects to its similarity to a family of chemicals called the endogenous cannabinoids, which are natural Cannabis-like chemicals. Because a THC molecule is shaped like these endogenous cannabinoids, it interacts with the same receptors on nerve cells, the cannabinoid receptors, that endogenous cannabinoids do, and it influences many of the same processes. Research has shown that the endogenous cannabinoids help control a wide array of mental and physical processes in the brain and throughout the body, including memory and perception, fine motor coordination, pain sensations, immunity to disease, and reproduction.
When someone smokes marijuana, THC over stimulates the cannabinoid receptors, leading to a disruption of the endogenous cannabinoids' normal control. This over stimulation produces the intoxication experienced by marijuana smokers. Over time, it may degrade some cannabinoid receptors, possibly producing permanent adverse effects and contributing to addiction and risk for a withdrawal syndrome.

Can marijuana use
during pregnancy harm the baby?

Research has shown that babies born to women who used marijuana during their pregnancies display altered responses to visual stimuli, increased tremulousness, and a high-pitched cry, which may indicate problems with neurological development. During infancy and preschool years, marijuana-exposed children have been observed to have more behavioral problems and to perform tasks of visual perception, language comprehension, sustained attention, and memory more poorly than non-exposed children do in school, these children are more likely to exhibit deficits in decision-making skills, memory, and the ability to remain attentive.
Is marijuana use addictive?

Long-term marijuana use can lead to addiction for some people; that is, they use the drug compulsively even though it often interferes with family, school, work, and recreational activities. According to the 2001 National Household Survey on Drug Abuse, an estimated 5.6 million Americans age 12 or older reported problems with illicit drug use in the past year. Of these, 3.6 million met diagnostic criteria for dependence on an illicit drug. More than 2 million met diagnostic criteria for dependence on marijuana/hashish. In 1999, more than 220,000 people entering drug abuse treatment programs reported that marijuana was their primary drug of abuse.
Along with craving, withdrawal symptoms can make it hard for long-term marijuana smokers to stop using the drug. People trying to quit report irritability, difficulty sleeping, and anxiety. They also display increased aggression on psychological tests, peaking approximately 1 week after they last used the drug."


I hope that opens more then a few eyes.

For more information regarding this topic, or just to check it's credibility if you would prefer. Go to: http://www.drugabuse.gov/ResearchReports/marijuana/

Thanks for sharing your point of view, I am always interested in hearing what others think.

SuperMan.
Posted: Wed, 27th Apr 2005, 3:13am

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Arktic

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Granted, I agree with you for the majority of what you/Dr Glenn Hanson state: smoking marijuana has a detrimental effect on a person's health - that's been established, and I don't think anyone is debating that.

However, you're plain wrong to state that cannabis is addictive. That's simply not scientific fact.

In the article you have linked to, it is interesting to note that Dr. Glen Hanson provides no reference to any published study suggesting that cannabis is addictive, as he suggests, whereas he provies clinical evidence for the rest of his claims.

The US Institute of Medicine (an associate organisation of The National Academy of Sciences) determined, in a recent study, that cannabis is not a physically addictive drug, as it does not fufill the three criteria required to class a substance as capable of creating a physical dependence.
Furthermore, they went on to state that in the few cases where a psychological dependence is created, it "appears to be less severe than dependence on other drugs", also noting that people were less likely to develop any kind of dependence to cannabis compared to other drugs.

Dr. Jack E. Henningfield, (chief of the Clinical Pharmacology Branch of NIDA's Addiction Research Center) and Dr. Neal L. Benowitz (Professor of Medicine, Psychiatry, and Pharmacy, UCSF) carried out research whereby various drugs were ranked on their ability to cause phsyical and psychological dependence. The results can be viewed at the National Drug Strategy Network's website. Note how cannabis is ratest lowest for the majority of the categories. Here is a graph showing the results of the Henningfield/Benowitz study:



Here's what each of those categories means:
Withdrawal: Presence and severity of characteristic withdrawal symptoms.
Reinforcement: Substance's ability, in human and animal tests, to get users to take it repeatedly, and instead of other substances.
Tolerance: Amount of substance needed to satisfy increasing cravings, and level of plateau that is eventually reached.
Dependence: Difficulty in ending use of substance, relapse rate, percentage of people who become addicted, addicts self-reporting of degree of need for substance, and continued use in face of evidence that it causes harm.
Intoxication: Level of intoxication associated with addiction, personal and social damage that substance causes.

Cannabis is not addictive, and highly unlikely to cause you to develop a psychological addiction. And that's a fact.

As to your point about the illegal trade in home-brewed alcohol, yes, there may well be a market there, but it is nowhere near the scale that it would have been back in the days of prohibition. Why would this same effect not apply to cannabis suppliers? The majority of cannabis suppliers would effectively be put out of business if there were legal ways of procuring the substance, as it would most likely be cheaper and safer to buy it legally, in much the same way it is cheaper and safer to buy alcohol from a shop.

As always, glad to hear your point of view on this subject smile

Cheers,
Arktic.
Posted: Wed, 27th Apr 2005, 3:55am

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Serpent

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I hate smoking, I have never lit anything up, the most I have done in that direction is sipped my parents drinks, only sips, and kicked a cigarette that was still lit. That is as close as I am ever going to come. It really is stupid. :-\ This is my opinion and I think it should be more people's. I am shocked at the amount of people here who smoke Marijuana, even if it is only a small fraction that admitted to it.
Posted: Wed, 27th Apr 2005, 4:06am

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The Artur

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Serpent wrote:

I hate smoking, I have never lit anything up, the most I have done in that direction is sipped my parents drinks, only sips, and kicked a cigarette that was still lit. That is as close as I am ever going to come. It really is stupid. :-\ This is my opinion and I think it should be more people's. I am shocked at the amount of people here who smoke Marijuana, even if it is only a small fraction that admitted to it.
I'm like you, i never will smoke anything, and dont realy plan on drinking for a while, I totaly agree with you on every aspect smile
Posted: Wed, 27th Apr 2005, 4:17am

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Bryce007

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I agree with serpent and artur l, however, i do enjoy the occassional drink.

I get this odd feeling ssj johns post will get hammered with -1's real soon....
Posted: Wed, 27th Apr 2005, 4:26am

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The Artur

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ssj john wrote:


Third: THe only reason you smoke is because your a depressed fag that has no friends...WORD
And fourth: I'm awesome (and so is everybody else out there who dosnt smoke anything) Whateva...WORD
Well, i have a friend who used to smoke it, but that dosent mean he's a bod guy, people just make bad choices sometimes, peer pressure etc.

Anyway, my friend does not do marijuana anymore because he knows it was just a stuoid thing to do in the first place, and i'm happy for him biggrin
Posted: Wed, 27th Apr 2005, 4:50am

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Super Man

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Arktic I do not believe you are quite getting what exactly I am saying. But don't worry I will try to make it more clear.


However, you're plain wrong to state that cannabis is addictive. That's simply not scientific fact. ...as it does not fufill the three criteria required
You should return to my last post and read it more specifically, because it is stated that it does meat those criteria:

Withdrawal: Presence and severity of characteristic withdrawal symptoms.

Reinforcement: Substance's ability, in human and animal tests, to get users to take it repeatedly, and instead of other substances.

Tolerance: Amount of substance needed to satisfy increasing cravings, and level of plateau that is eventually reached.

Dependence: Difficulty in ending use of substance, relapse rate, percentage of people who become addicted, addicts self-reporting of degree of need for substance, and continued use in face of evidence that it causes harm. (All the people that were in rehab in my posts admitted them self’s)

Intoxication: Level of intoxication associated with addiction, personal and social damage that substance causes.

(All of these have been met, and pointed out in my posts)

cannabis is ratest lowest for the majority of the categories
Regardless of how high it is rated it does not show that it doesn't meat the criteria, it only states that it is not as bad. I would also like to point out that I question the credibility of you chart since it shows cocaine to be more reinforcing then heroin. But that maybe the case. Since cocaine ranks lower in the other spots, does that mean cocaine should be legal?
I know the answer to that, and it isn't yes.


As to your point about the illegal trade in home-brewed alcohol, yes, there may well be a market there, but it is nowhere near the scale that it would have been back in the days of prohibition. Why would this same effect not apply to cannabis suppliers? The majority of cannabis suppliers would effectively be put out of business...
It may slow their sales, but it will not stop them, they will the have the option to go and open a store. Back in the old day, the people selling alcohol did not stop they only turned it into a business, it would more likely just push the dealers to a more extreme point of sales possibly moving them to worse drugs.

There is more to be said, but if you look in my other posts you will find it.
Including:

Cannabis is not addictive, and highly unlikely to cause you to develop a psychological addiction. And that's a fact.
The answer to that...which is yes it is lol. We both seem to have evidence from reasonable sources backing our point of view but until we have our own labs and training to verify these findings for our self’s we may be at this for a long time, I look forward to it lol. But a topic like this (although important) could go on and on, and the end result of this discussion my be inconclusive or ineffective in the end result. So it may be nice to rap this one up. At least in this forum.

One more thing, Serpent, I don't smoke either, and I have never smoke marijuana.

Have a good one.
SuperMan.
Posted: Wed, 27th Apr 2005, 5:28am

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sidewinder

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Don't get me wrong, I think smoking pot is a somewhat dirty, shady act, mostly because of the legal issue behind it, and I think people could forgo causing all that touble and skip an unnatural high, however, those arguing against its legalization need a better grasp on individual rights.

I also think seat belts should not be enforced by law. Same exact reason why I think drugs should be legal. If it was legal to not wear my set belt, would I go without it? Of course not. If drugs were legal, would I do them? Well, same answer.
Posted: Wed, 27th Apr 2005, 5:56am

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er-no

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Seatbelts safe lifes, by not wearing a seatbelt your also endangering the other passengers in a car (if travelling with passengers).

The same thing can hardly be said for smoking pot.

A rather silly argument, but then again, this whole topic is starting to get a bit vicious and infinite now.

Still, nice to hear peoples opinions.

Arktic - just to throw in my opinion on that above point. From the many people I've known to have smoked Cannibis - yes, it can get addictive, I've lost a very close friend due to him becoming fixated on the stuff - counting down the minutes til his next spliff.

Not addictive like cocaine, more addictive like Pringles. biggrin
Posted: Wed, 27th Apr 2005, 6:31am

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Waser

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er-no wrote:



Not addictive like cocaine, more addictive like Pringles. biggrin
steve.....he died so young..... sad

GOD DAMN YOU PRINGLES MAN! GOD DAAAAAMN YOUUUUUU!!!

sidewinder wrote:

however, those arguing against its legalization need a better grasp on individual rights.
Now atom, super man, this is key


as long as people are throwing out their experiences, I've never tried pot, plan to one day, same with ciggarettes, and drink like an irishman
Posted: Wed, 27th Apr 2005, 7:30am

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JoelM

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---Upside of Marijuana---

None.

---Downside of Marijuana---

Short term effects of regular Marijuana use:
1. Problems with memory and learning.
2. Distorted perception of sights, sounds, time, and touch.
3. Trouble with thinking and problemsolving.
4. Loss of motor coordination, and increased heart rate.

Long term effects of regular Marijuana use:
1. Cancer - It is known that marijuana contains some of the same, and sometimes even more, of the cancer-causing chemicals found in tobacco smoke. Studies show that someone who smokes five joints per day may be taking in as many cancer-causing chemicals as someone who smokes a full pack of cigarettes every day.
2. Lungs and airways - People who smoke marijuana often develop the same kinds of breathing problems that cigarette smokers have: coughing and wheezing. They tend to have more chest colds than nonusers. They are also at greater risk of getting lung infections like pneumonia.
3. Immune system - Studies have found that THC (the active chemical in marijuana) can damage the cells and tissues in the body that help protect against disease. When the immune cells are weakened you are more likely to get sick.
_________

>Marijuana affects memory, judgment and perception. The drug can make you mess up in school, in sports or clubs, or with your friends. If you’re high on marijuana, you are more likely to make mistakes that could embarrass or even hurt you. If you use marijuana a lot, you could start to lose interest in how you look and how you’re getting along at school or work. Athletes could find their performance is off; timing, movements, and coordination are all affected by THC. Also, since marijuana can affect judgment and decisionmaking, its use can lead to risky sexual behavior, resulting in exposure to sexually transmitted diseases like HIV, the virus that causes AIDS.
_________

>Marijuana has serious harmful effects on the skills required to drive safely such as alertness, concentration, coordination, and reaction time. Marijuana use can make it difficult to judge distances and react to signals and sounds on the road. Data have also shown that while smoking marijuana, people show the same lack of coordination on standard "drunk driver" tests as do people who have had too much to drink.
_________

>Studies show that when people have smoked large amounts of marijuana for years, the drug takes its toll on mental functions. Heavy or daily use of marijuana affects the parts of the brain that control memory, attention, and learning. A working short-term memory is needed to learn and perform tasks that call for more than one or two steps. Smoking marijuana causes some changes in the brain that are like those caused by cocaine, heroin, and alcohol.
_________

>Studies in children born to mothers who used marijuana have shown increased behavioral problems during infancy and preschool years. In school, these children are more likely to have problems with decisionmaking, memory, and the ability to remain attentive. Researchers are not certain whether health problems that may be caused by early exposure to marijuana will remain as the child grows into adulthood. However, since some parts of the brain continue to develop throughout adolescence, it is also possible that certain kinds of problems may appear as the child matures.
_________

>Depression, anxiety, and personality disturbances have been associated with marijuana use. Research clearly demonstrates that marijuana has potential to cause problems in daily life or make a person’s existing problems worse. Because marijuana compromises the ability to learn and remember information, the more a person uses marijuana the more he or she is likely to fall behind in accumulating intellectual, job, or social skills. Moreover, research has shown that marijuana’s adverse impact on memory and learning can last for days or weeks after the acute effects of the drug wear off.

---Conclusion---

orion0340, I don't give a damn about you, but I know there's someone who does, and He wants you to respect your body and take care of it mentally and physically. God created all things good, including the cannabis plant, but people often abused it. The same applies to sex - God created it to be between a man and a woman only, absent untill marrage, but it is often abused and as a result comes sexual immorality.
Posted: Wed, 27th Apr 2005, 7:55am

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Waser

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Joel McDonald wrote:


The same applies to sex - God created it to be between a man and a woman only, absent untill marrage, but it is often abused and as a result comes sexual immorality.

Oh no! You made me laugh so hard I turned into a The Ring face!
Posted: Wed, 27th Apr 2005, 8:00am

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Simon K Jones

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Joel McDonald wrote:

God created all things good, including the cannabis plant, but people often abused it.
How are people capable of abusing things, if God created us 'good'? Or are we the one exception? In which case he either made a mistake, decided to try an experiment, was just having a laugh, or we were created by something else.

The same applies to sex - God created it to be between a man and a woman only, absent untill marrage, but it is often abused and as a result comes sexual immorality
Only flaw there is that an awful lot of 'sexual immorality' goes on between married men and women, too. Marriage and gender have very little to do with it - but, then again, I expect we have wildly different ideas of what 'immoral' actually means. smile
Posted: Wed, 27th Apr 2005, 8:06am

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Joshua Davies

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The same applies to sex - God created it to be between a man and a woman only, absent untill marrage, but it is often abused and as a result comes sexual immorality.
I think you'll find that organised religion created the limitations you are talking about. I can't see why god would give us the equipment and make it so easy to use if it was immoral to do so.
Posted: Wed, 27th Apr 2005, 8:09am

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er-no

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schwar wrote:

The same applies to sex - God created it to be between a man and a woman only, absent untill marrage, but it is often abused and as a result comes sexual immorality.
I think you'll find that organised religion created the limitations you are talking about. I can't see why god would give us the equipment and make it so easy to use if it was immoral to do so.
To teach us a lesson.
Don't poke the fire unless you want to get burnt.

Ignore me. I'm so tired.
Posted: Wed, 27th Apr 2005, 8:32am

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JoelM

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Tarn wrote:

How are people capable of abusing things, if God created us 'good'? Or are we the one exception?
We are no exeption. When I say good, I mean God created man in His image perfectly (like a potter with clay), but we are His only creation that can choose whether or not to sin, and in many cases we do.

Tarn wrote:

we have wildly different ideas of what 'immoral' actually means. smile
Obviously
Posted: Wed, 27th Apr 2005, 8:44am

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Mellifluous

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Ok, since it's come on to this - I have a question. How did God create a perfect Garden of Eden & perfect everything else in it, but there was this perverse snake in it?
Posted: Wed, 27th Apr 2005, 8:46am

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er-no

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Mellifluous wrote:

Ok, since it's come on to this - I have a question. How did God create a perfect Garden of Eden & perfect everything else in it, but there was this perverse snake in it?
It was all apart of God's plan. The snake was the beginning. God knows all and knew what was going to happen. It's all in the great plan.

It's ok, good wins in the end.
Posted: Wed, 27th Apr 2005, 8:47am

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Simon K Jones

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Joel McDonald wrote:

Tarn wrote:

How are people capable of abusing things, if God created us 'good'? Or are we the one exception?
We are no exeption. When I say good, I mean God created man in His image perfectly (like a potter with clay), but we are His only creation that can choose whether or not to sin, and in many cases we do.
If God created man as his perfect image, and man is capable of choosing to sin, does that mean that God is able to sin, too? In which case he could, theoretically, have created the cannabis plant specifically to cause trouble - if he's capable of choosing to sin, you can't presume that everything he does is for the perfect 'good'.

What was the actual reasoning behind giving us the ability to choose to sin? It seems like a rather cruel thing to do.

Note that I'm not trying to be facetious here; I'm genuinely interested in the ideas behind all this stuff.
Posted: Wed, 27th Apr 2005, 8:52am

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Mellifluous

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Well, evil snakey seems to have been a bad guy but it contradicts statements like

we are His only creation that can choose whether or not to sin
Snake was either created evil or chose to sin (thus having free will) which is very contradictory.
Posted: Wed, 27th Apr 2005, 8:55am

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JoelM

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schwar wrote:

I can't see why god would give us the equipment and make it so easy to use if it was immoral to do so.
Sex outside of marriage causes damage in at least two areas: physical consequences, and relational consequences.

The physical consequences are becoming increasingly obvious and increasingly dangerous in today's society such as AIDS and other Sexually Transmitted Diseases. "Safe sex" is more accurately described as "reduced risk sex." The only truly safe sex is abstinence. There is also a very real risk that children could be born - and possibly grow up without two parents. Your actions not only affect your life, but your partner's life, and the lives of your family. They can result in handicapping an innocent baby's life as well. Worst of all the destruction of human life often results from pre-marital sex (abortion).

Sex outside of marriage also damages the relationship between the persons involved. Trust is the main issue here. If two people do not cherish sex enough to wait for a marriage commitment, how can they trust one another for fidelity? Conversely, a man and woman build trust and respect for one another when they both survive the struggles of self-control - each will have the confidence that the other respects them, and cherishes their intimacy.
Posted: Wed, 27th Apr 2005, 9:02am

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Waser

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Yeah, because when you get married, all STDs, and actually anything that can go wrong with sex, vanishes. God damn, marriage is cool like that
Posted: Wed, 27th Apr 2005, 9:03am

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Mellifluous

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Joel: How do we know what the purpose of Marijuana is? How do we know that it is immoral to use Marijuana by smoking it?
Posted: Wed, 27th Apr 2005, 9:14am

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Simon K Jones

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Joel McDonald wrote:

There is also a very real risk that children could be born - and possibly grow up without two parents. Your actions not only affect your life, but your partner's life, and the lives of your family.
Except, of course, marriage is hardly a guarantee of having two parents. Just take a look at divorce/separation rate. Marriage guarantees nothing, except a few lawyers having a good day at some point down the line.

Sex outside of marriage also damages the relationship between the persons involved. Trust is the main issue here. If two people do not cherish sex enough to wait for a marriage commitment, how can they trust one another for fidelity?
I don't think the two things are related. I don't feel the need to get a piece of paper signed in order to trust my partner. In fact, feeling the need to get some kind of guarantee (the marriage) implies to me an implicit lack of trust, to be honest.

I don't really see how sex is related to trust, in this context? As I am not religious, I don't feel any particular need to marry (other than for potential legal benefits). If I'm going to spend my life with someone, whether I'm 'married' to them or not seems rather irrelevant - if we're both faithful and loving of each other, then surely that's all that matters? Whether I'm in or out of marriage is a purely personal thing - I don't think it relates to morality or trust.
Posted: Wed, 27th Apr 2005, 9:29am

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JoelM

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Mellifluous wrote:

Joel: How do we know what the purpose of Marijuana is?
THC, the active chemical in marijuana, is manufactured into a pill available by prescription that can be used to treat the nausea and vomiting that occur with certain cancer treatments and to help AIDS patients eat more to keep up their weight. According to scientists, more research needs to be done on THC's side effects and other potential medical uses.

Mellifluous wrote:

How do we know that it is immoral to use Marijuana by smoking it?
1 Corinthians 6:19 tells us our bodies are God's temple. Not only did He create our bodies, but he also dwells in them through his Holy Spirit.


It's 2:29am West Coast time, and I have school in a few hours so I need to get some sleep. Be back later.
Posted: Wed, 27th Apr 2005, 9:48am

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Joshua Davies

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Sex outside of marriage also damages the relationship between the persons involved. Trust is the main issue here. If two people do not cherish sex enough to wait for a marriage commitment, how can they trust one another for fidelity? Conversely, a man and woman build trust and respect for one another when they both survive the struggles of self-control - each will have the confidence that the other respects them, and cherishes their intimacy.
If you REQUIRE marriage to trust your partner not to run off then you're in a pretty bad state in the first place and shouldn't even consider marriage? I'm not sure I'll ever marry, and I know it wouldn't make me trust my parner more. Why would it? I would trust my own judgement to pick the right person. Marriage doesn't stop people having affairs, hence why most marriages end in divorce.

The physical consequences are becoming increasingly obvious and increasingly dangerous in today's society such as AIDS and other Sexually Transmitted Diseases. "Safe sex" is more accurately described as "reduced risk sex." The only truly safe sex is abstinence. There is also a very real risk that children could be born - and possibly grow up without two parents. Your actions not only affect your life, but your partner's life, and the lives of your family. They can result in handicapping an innocent baby's life as well. Worst of all the destruction of human life often results from pre-marital sex (abortion).
You act like marriage is some kind of magic forcefield protecting everyone. Many children are far better off outside of marriage - I'm personally much better off because my parents are divorced. I know randomly having sex with everyone is a bad idea, no matter what protection you try and use. But having a meaningful relationship with someone outside of marriage doesn't do anyone any harm even if its fairly short. A much better way to stop AIDs in its tracks (as people just don't stay commited to marriage anymore) would be for the catholic church to allow the use of condoms.

Finally, I also see no problem with abortion provided it is done very early. I think its up to the people involved. Religious people who don't agree with abortion should not force their ideals upon people who are not religious - although that seems to be the point of many organised religions.
Posted: Wed, 27th Apr 2005, 2:33pm

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Coureur de Bois

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Joel McDonald wrote:



Mellifluous wrote:

How do we know that it is immoral to use Marijuana by smoking it?
1 Corinthians 6:19 tells us our bodies are God's temple. Not only did He create our bodies, but he also dwells in them through his Holy Spirit.
That's pretty vague and doesn't really apply to smoking Marijuana. However, if you're going to pull out the bible verses, here's one of my favorites:

"Every moving thing that liveth shall be meant for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things."

-Genesis 9:3

Thanks God!
Posted: Wed, 27th Apr 2005, 2:43pm

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Mellifluous

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Lol, God is a pot-smoker...that explains a lot.
Posted: Wed, 27th Apr 2005, 2:46pm

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Steeb

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Waser wrote:

Yeah, because when you get married, all STDs, and actually anything that can go wrong with sex, vanishes. God damn, marriage is cool like that
It's actually the ring that protects you. Once you put it on, it forms a protective force-field around your (for lack of a more scientific term) pink parts. It's all there in the handbook you get when you get married.


Edit:

Schwar wrote:

You act like marriage is some kind of magic forcefield protecting everyone.
Oops, I didn't see that you had already mentioned the force-field in your response. Oh well, I'm unoriginal as always.

Last edited Wed, 27th Apr 2005, 2:58pm; edited 2 times in total.

Posted: Wed, 27th Apr 2005, 2:48pm

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Madmanmatty

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Marraige is a human custom... having a MATE is what it was meant, back in the day. It's supposed to mean that you find someone you love... read between the lines.

Ok- here's the scoop, "moral" people.
I smoke cigarettes, weed, hash. I drink all forms of alcohol. I've done shrooms. I have "unwedded" sex with my girlfriend almost everyday. I beat up old people when I see them. I indulge in gluttonous eating binges. I'm vain. I'm lazy. I intend to try cocaine once in my life. I will never touch Heroin. I am vengeful and spiteful on people I don't like. I say about 50 goddamns a day, not counting all the other curse words. I also hate christians. Not all christians... just the die hard ones, who ACTUALLY believe that they are better than "the scum of satan".
But all that's ok, because I saw Jesus yesterday and I asked him:
"Yo, JC, throw me some forgiveness over here, man?"
and he said:
"Sure buddy-wuddy! Life's all about having a good time, as long as you learn!"

See the point I'm trying to so abruptly make, is this:
By essence, you "bible-morality" folks are "passing judgement". That in itself is a sin worth being sent to hell for.
So, really, you are violating your "morality" through abusive commments!
This is a debate about the pros and cons of marijuana... if you have an opinion (and opinions should be based on facts, and no, the bible is not a fact book- it is a series of opinions), show it. If you find it necessary to call other people "pathetic", "idiots" (WORD), etc... then you are proving yourself to be the irrashional ones here.
It just seems to me like those who ACTUALLY smoke pot are the ones being the most fair here, where as the "non-smokers" are simply showing their hatred towards the subject.
It's ok to hate... but please keep this contructive.
BTW- for the laymen out there, this post has been a satirical construction, so don't point your cannons at me, I'm using a literary device to try and remain witty.

BTW- I don't "actually" beat up old people when I see them... I just steal thier walking devices and pull down thier pants.
Posted: Wed, 27th Apr 2005, 3:01pm

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Arktic

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Joel:
I don't understand why marriage and religion have been brought into this - but either way, there are many religions where cannabis is regarded as sacred - the most well known being Rastafarianism (a religion in which it is customary to smoke cannabis and discuss ethical, social and religious issues at a 'reasoning'). The Rastafarians say that God who created all things made the herb for human use and will cite Genesis 1:12 as their proof text, among others.

And there are other religions that believe marijuana has a special meaning from God - so what makes it right for you to tell me how to behave because YOUR religion tells me to, especially when it's a topic that not all religions agree upon?

Super Man:
Yeah, you're right, there's lots of conflicting evidence out there. I guess if the top scientists are still debating it, then we'll probably not get anywhere either. But it was a good discussion smile

Cheers,
Arktic.
Posted: Wed, 27th Apr 2005, 3:43pm

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Rawree

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I notice that people are mainly discussing the medical effects of cannabis (as well as one or two completely fabricated problems) and have yet to mention the issue which worries me most:
Cannabis is often refered to as a "gateway drug" or something similar and this could be understood in 2 ways. Either that people, particularly younger people, who experiment with smoking weed will gradually begin trying stronger (and much more illegal) drugs such as LSD, Cocaine etc (I've seen this beginning to happen with people I know). It could also be seen that if Cannabis is legalised people will begin campaigning for the legalisation of other drugs as they see that it is possible. If the government take a hard line on a reletively minor substance such as cannabis then people who might be looking to legalise LSD wouldn't even waste their time protesting/campaigning.

Like many others here I'm not really religious at all and think that people should, winthin reason, be able to do what they want - nothing that endangers or hurts anyone else (the actions of people after smoking weed may endanger other people but even a competant driver still runs the risk of knocking someone down when driving sensibly). Quoting passages from the Bible does nothing to justify anything; you will never convince me that you are right simply because you quote the Bible and so that argument (when used either for or against) is completely void.

My stance on all of this is: Allow people to make their own decisions in matters like this and:

a) If it's dangerous then sit back and let natural selection do it's funky thing.

b) If it's a sin (if you subscribe to all that) let it be and rest assured that they will be punished when God does his funky thing.

c) Remember that nobody is forcing you to smoke it so stop worrying about what everyone else is doing and get on with your own life you nosey bastardwink
Posted: Wed, 27th Apr 2005, 3:48pm

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Coureur de Bois

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Rawree wrote:

Remember that nobody is forcing you to smoke it so stop worrying about what everyone else is doing and get on with your own life you nosey bastardwink
Couldn't have said it any better myself Rawree.

In the immortal words of Ben Harper, "If you don't like my fire, then don't come around... but I'm gonna burn one down."
Posted: Wed, 27th Apr 2005, 5:31pm

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aenigma

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Rawree wrote:

c) Remember that nobody is forcing you to smoke it so stop worrying about what everyone else is doing and get on with your own life you nosey bastardwink
Sounds like you came up with the answer to the issue which worries you most. wink
Posted: Wed, 27th Apr 2005, 5:58pm

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Rawree

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aenigma wrote:

Rawree wrote:

c) Remember that nobody is forcing you to smoke it so stop worrying about what everyone else is doing and get on with your own life you nosey bastardwink
Sounds like you came up with the answer to the issue which worries you most. wink
Heh, this is true and although it seems like good advice it's impossible to say without being a hypocrite *sigh* wink
Posted: Wed, 27th Apr 2005, 6:25pm

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Hybrid-Halo

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Rating: +2

Drugs are similiar to Xtreme Sports in that they're something which you need to set your own boundaries within else risk seriously damaging yourself.

Like many, many aspects of life you as an individual need to decide if you're going to take anything and how much you're going to take ontop of how sensibly you're going to take it. It's important to know exactly what you're taking as well as its effects in order to remain in control of what will happen to you.

Whilst it's true that to an extent Cannabis is a gateway drug, the people that have smoked it and then gone onto harder drugs have all made that choice themselves, whether or not they've made that choice sensibly varies from case to case. As an individual, you can also make that choice.

A problem with drug culture as a whole is that it can be similiar to the xtreme sports world. There are plenty of idiots that view taking harder drugs as some form of accomplishment, little cliques that say "beans" instead of pills. Before taking any drug maybe you need to ask yourself if you have that kind of personality or not...
Obviously I can't tell you how I know this, as it'd sound as if I was condoning drug use though I do believe many people experiment with different substances at some stage of their lives, many don't. Both are perfectly fine.

Experimentation however, can be dangerous in some cases, just be wary of the consequences and if you're taking some form of pill make sure you know how much you should be taking, too little is way better than too much. Know the effects and how to deal with them, infact.. know everything. there are plenty of great online resources.

Whilst marijuana as a substance is not addictive, you do smoke it with tobacco... which is addictive, and being addicted to tobacco when you only smoke it with weed isn't a particuarly good thing. I do believe it's also possible to become addicted to the effects any non addictive drug has on you. It's possible for drugs to become a method of escape which is addictive within itself.

Drugs CAN change you and it's down to you whether you let that happen and end up smoking weed every day or popping pills every weekend and being a dropout because it's 'cool'. Or whether you're just up for a friendly smoke with a couple of mates once a month or so.

It's all down to responsibility in the end. You have control over your life and what you do to enjoy it. Good luck with it.
Posted: Wed, 27th Apr 2005, 7:48pm

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Arktic

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Rawree - you're right to be concerned about the possibility that cannabis could act as a gateway drug; however, evidence suggests that cannabis doesn't act in the way you've described (essentially as a 'stepping stone' to harder drugs). Research published by Baumrind in 1983 and O'Donnell and Clayton in 1982 stated that such a theory "has proved unsustainable and lacking any real evidence base".

And if we look at empirical evidence, we can see that de-criminalisation of cannabis does NOT lead to a greater number of users of harder drugs - for example, in the Netherlands, since decriminalising cannabis, "The number of addicts in the Netherlands is stable, drug related deaths are lower and the age profile of Heroin users is rising, directly opposite to the position in the UK" (Netherlands Ministry of Justice, Fact Sheet: Dutch Drugs Policy, (Utrecht: Trimbos Institute, Netherlands Institute of Mental Health and Addiction, 1999)).

Cheers,
Arktic.
Posted: Wed, 27th Apr 2005, 8:15pm

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Bryce007

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Hot DAMN! Its hilarious how every time a debate like this occurs, peoples start bustin' out all there ideals and wondering why other people don't agree...

Its called opinions, and everybody is entitled to be wrong in them.

According what people say they agree with in this thread, im suppose that makes me a superconverative, clean, christian goody goody comparatively.

SO, if people want to destroy they're bodies with various chemical induced Highs and "practice medium risk sex" and Ignore moral's althogether, i say, Go for it. If you need to do this stuff so bad and it makes you feel so good, have fun, but just remember in the end, everybody is going to answer for there actions.

I enjoy pantsing old people, and i prefer to do so in malls, so if ya see me stalking some old person pants...dont intterupt me. im just doing my job.
Posted: Wed, 27th Apr 2005, 8:49pm

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aenigma

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Bryce007 wrote:

According what people say they agree with in this thread, im suppose that makes me a superconverative, clean, christian goody goody comparatively.
to quote Pumpkin Escobar "Man, I don't know what the fuck you just said, little kid, but you special, man."
Posted: Wed, 27th Apr 2005, 10:02pm

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hatsoff2halford

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I am not educated in this topic at all and I may completely be missing the point but I have an opinion.

Pot can easily impare someones judgement and potentially harm other people around them. I am only 15, having said that, there are many teens I know that have destroyed a potentially great life. Many kids in my grade will show up late to school because of just having smoked pot, get into class and have a completely relaxed feeling, making them not care what is going on in their learning enviorment. Although, for all I know the kids I have encountered who have presented this effect, were completely faking it so they could 'fit in'. I'm sure this is a case with many of them.

Someone compared Jurrasic Park to Pot. I think this is a completely bad metaphor. Movies give you enjoyment and supposable so does Pot (I have never done it so I wouldn't know), but, does jurrasic park potentially change your view of things? Make you more relaxed than normal, and possibly, make you get in a car and drive just after blazing up and crashing and killing 3 of you and your friends because you didn't think about what you were doing?

My mom is a volunteer with our local police station for the "Victim Services" I have attended quite a few of their meetings and there have been volunteer speakers who have been 'Addicted' to pot. True pot may not be addictive, but now, many dealers will cut pot with many other drugs, making this so called pot addictive. Unless you have a trustworthy friend who actually grows this pot, I doubt anyone is able to tell whether or not they are buying "good" pot or "bad" pot. One of my families really good friends son, has completely destroyed his life because of this pot that has been mixed with other substances. This post has led him to smoke other drugs which are truely addictive and harmful to you and the people around you.

The people who do recieve "good" pot are still very dangerous to the people around them. I have no bias towards anyone who does smoke, I just think it is a mistake that they could possible regret later on in life. I believe that if someone only does pot on very small occasions then it is alright (I never will). But for the other few who decide to act badass infront of their peers who offer them this, and eventually become regulars of using pot are weak and shouldn't be aloud to use such a potentially dangerous 'drug'.

Also, it is common for someone to want to acheive a greater high after awhile because pot isn't giving them the high feeling anymore. So this makes them lead into even more dangerous and very addictive drugs.

Im sorry for the long post just wanted to get my two cents in.

-Logan
Posted: Wed, 27th Apr 2005, 10:29pm

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Rawree

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If I'm watching Jurrasic Park till 3 in the morning then the next day, supposing I have to be up and about by 8, my thought processes and awareness are likely to be down and watching movies for long periods of time could cause all kinds of eye problems but that wasn't the point of the analogy.
The point was that there are bad sides to everything (causing harm to yourself and potentially others) but that is no reason to prohibit these things - I didn't think that the downsides were the same (that would be just plain foolish).

I don't believe that smoking cannabis should be encouraged by selling it commercially, but I do think that those who want to smoke it should be allowed should they choose to seek it out from a mate's cousin or whatever and everyone can just leave them to it and let them get on with it.

People who run afoul of the law because of drink are arrested and I would hope the same would be said of people under the influence of cannabis. Responsible users get their cannabis, irresponsible users are punished and most people can rest easy and unaffected.
Posted: Wed, 27th Apr 2005, 11:01pm

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JoelM

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Tarn wrote:

If God created man as his perfect image, and man is capable of choosing to sin, does that mean that God is able to sin, too?
No, because God is perfect - We are no where near perfect spiritually, but we are built perfectly. (Skeletal system, respiratory system, brain, hands, feet, etc.)

Tarn wrote:

What was the actual reasoning behind giving us the ability to choose to sin? It seems like a rather cruel thing to do.
It's nowhere near cruel thing. He gave us free choice. If you make it so someone just loves you and they have no choice in the matter, then you don't know if they really love you because they have to love you - they have no choice, but when you give someone free will to choose, they either choose to love you and do what is right or they choose not to love you and do what is wrong and the wrong thing is sin, and sin hurts God. So God knows if He gives you the choice to sin or not to sin, you really love Him if you choose not to sin because you made the choice.

orion0340 wrote:

However, if you're going to pull out the bible verses, here's one of my favorites:

"Every moving thing that liveth shall be meant for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things."

-Genesis 9:3
Yes, God says He gives us dominion over all things, but He also gave us a brain to tell us not to eat poisonous plants and stay away from things that are harmful to us.

Arktic wrote:

What makes it right for you to tell me how to behave because YOUR religion tells me to, especially when it's a topic that not all religions agree upon?
I am not telling you how to behave, I am simply speaking the truth and answering people's questions from a Christian's view on the subject.
Posted: Wed, 27th Apr 2005, 11:28pm

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Hybrid-Halo

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Joel McDonald wrote:

No, because God is perfect - We are no where near perfect spiritually, but we are built perfectly. (Skeletal system, respiratory system, brain, hands, feet, etc.)
Not all of us are that lucky, Does God simply overlook the physically handicapped?

Regardless, this is not a religious debate. It's already been covered that Marijuana is part of other religions. there are jungle religions which even use hallucinagenics as part of ritual. This really is not the right place to continue a religious debate.

hatsoff2halford wrote:

True pot may not be addictive, but now, many dealers will cut pot with many other drugs, making this so called pot addictive.
There aren't actually any addictive substances that you can mix with pot that can be taken via smoking. Though you can mix substances like lsd or ecstasy it's something you'd have to pay more for. I suspect that so called pot addicts have become addicted to the lifestyle or feeling/escape getting high brings with it as oppose to the substance itself.
Posted: Wed, 27th Apr 2005, 11:48pm

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hatsoff2halford

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""There aren't actually any addictive substances that you can mix with pot that can be taken via smoking. Though you can mix substances like lsd or ecstasy it's something you'd have to pay more for. I suspect that so called pot addicts have become addicted to the lifestyle or feeling/escape getting high brings with it as oppose to the substance itself.""

Hybrid, I suppose to me that this would classify it as being addictive. Even though it doesn't meet the criteria for being addictive. Even though the actual substance itself isn't addictive, people are still wanting to smoke it for one reason or another.

I agree with what everyone has been saying that if someone with strong will and who isn't sucked into the feeling it brings then pot should be legal. But for those who aren't capable of resisting the feeling and cause danger to others to me, makes pot being illegal a good thing.

-Logan
Posted: Thu, 28th Apr 2005, 12:00am

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Arktic

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Joel McDonald wrote:

I am not telling you how to behave, I am simply speaking the truth
That's a bit of an odd statement - you speak the truth when you tell me that some of my behaviour is immoral and wrong, but you don't think that's telling me how I should or shouldn't be behaving? Seems a strange claim to make, to me.

Hybrid-Halo is entirely right, this isn't really the place for a discussion on religion anyway.

Hatsoff2halford- about pot being cut with addictive substances: the most addictive thing you're likely to find pot mixed with is tobbaco (and a dealer wouldn't cut it with tobacco before he sold it to you, because it'd be painfully obvious that he was ripping you off). Mixing anything else in is a waste of time - not only would the pot become massively more expensive as Hybrid said, but smoking many other drugs such as cocaine or ecstacy is a very innefectual way to take them. It would therefore have little effect on your system, so would not be addictive.

Cheers,
Arktic.
Posted: Thu, 28th Apr 2005, 12:08am

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hatsoff2halford

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Arktic, like I said, i'm not very educated on this subject so I guess I misunderstood what I was told.

-Logan
Posted: Thu, 28th Apr 2005, 12:25am

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Hybrid-Halo

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hatsoff2halford wrote:

I agree with what everyone has been saying that if someone with strong will and who isn't sucked into the feeling it brings then pot should be legal. But for those who aren't capable of resisting the feeling and cause danger to others to me, makes pot being illegal a good thing.
I couldn't disagree more,
Marijuana is probably the most readily available drug, the fact that it is illegal doesn't stop people getting it, it just removes the governments capability to make money off of it as well as setting it as a taboo which few people seem to be able to address properly. Little is as dangerous as something potentially dangerous that isn't understood by so many people.

The ex-head of drug crimes unit in England wants all drugs legalised, why? Because our current methods of dealing with them in legal terms just does not work. Treating the whole drugs topic as a no go isn't the intelligent way of dealing with it. This is a discussion afterall. smile
Posted: Thu, 28th Apr 2005, 12:40am

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ssj john

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Ok so heres my opinion on the subject( if you dont want it BITE ME!!!)
THere is no such thing as smoking maryjane responsibly. Because the fact that you do smoke it is irresponsible. And in my opinion people only want mary jane legalized because they think that it will take so guilt off there back (lets all face the facts, people are going to smoke Mary whether it is legal or not.) I highly doubt anyone is just waiting for maryjane to be legal just to smoke... all those who want it to be legalized smoke it already. And why would you want to smoke it it ruins your body and i garanetee anyone who dosnt smoke anything is better off in the long run. And don't say things like " yeah right your a goody goody"
or "smoking isn't that bad" Cuz you know those are all excuses to make your self feel better.
THATS all I have to say on the subject....WORD

WORD YO PEACE OUT MOTHA TRUCKA
Posted: Thu, 28th Apr 2005, 12:46am

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Atom

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Stop it, all of you. This is all unecessary crap. If you smoke it, great. Good for you. It might be against all I personally stand for, and think is socially and morally and religiously wrong, but



Whatever.

If you don't do it, great. That's one more of us.But, please, don't disrepect god, people, it's not your right to say things ill of him, screw off if you're atheist, you have no faith to live by anyway, but most of all:


Shut up!
This topic has long since retired. Seriously. The only ones scraggling along are those who have just begun posting on the topic without reading what has already been put, and those who are arguing with the wind.


Go outside, supposedly it's windier.
Posted: Thu, 28th Apr 2005, 12:50am

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Arktic

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THere is no such thing as smoking maryjane responsibly. Because the fact that you do smoke it is irresponsible.
So a person, smoking in their own home, where no harm will come to anyone else is 'irresponsible'? How so?

And in my opinion people only want mary jane legalized because they think that it will take so guilt off there back
No people want it legalised to have the right to choose if they want to indulge in that particular acticity. It's got nothing to do with guilt.

And why would you want to smoke it it ruins your body and i garanetee anyone who dosnt smoke anything is better off in the long run.
Can I ask you this - do you eat chocolate or candy at all? Why would you want to do that? It ruins your body, and I guarentee that anyone who doesn't eat candy or chocolate is better off in the long run.

But wait, is chocolate illegal? I sure hope so - because eating chocolate must be irresponsible!
Posted: Thu, 28th Apr 2005, 12:50am

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ssj john

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Madmanmatty wrote:

Marraige is a human custom... having a MATE is what it was meant, back in the day. It's supposed to mean that you find someone you love... read between the lines.

Ok- here's the scoop, "moral" people.
I smoke cigarettes, weed, hash. I drink all forms of alcohol. I've done shrooms. I have "unwedded" sex with my girlfriend almost everyday. I beat up old people when I see them. I indulge in gluttonous eating binges. I'm vain. I'm lazy. I intend to try cocaine once in my life. I will never touch Heroin. I am vengeful and spiteful on people I don't like. I say about 50 goddamns a day, not counting all the other curse words. I also hate christians. Not all christians... just the die hard ones, who ACTUALLY believe that they are better than "the scum of satan".
But all that's ok, because I saw Jesus yesterday and I asked him:
"Yo, JC, throw me some forgiveness over here, man?"
and he said:
"Sure buddy-wuddy! Life's all about having a good time, as long as you learn!"

See the point I'm trying to so abruptly make, is this:
By essence, you "bible-morality" folks are "passing judgement". That in itself is a sin worth being sent to hell for.
So, really, you are violating your "morality" through abusive commments!
This is a debate about the pros and cons of marijuana... if you have an opinion (and opinions should be based on facts, and no, the bible is not a fact book- it is a series of opinions), show it. If you find it necessary to call other people "pathetic", "idiots" (WORD), etc... then you are proving yourself to be the irrashional ones here.
It just seems to me like those who ACTUALLY smoke pot are the ones being the most fair here, where as the "non-smokers" are simply showing their hatred towards the subject.
It's ok to hate... but please keep this contructive.
BTW- for the laymen out there, this post has been a satirical construction, so don't point your cannons at me, I'm using a literary device to try and remain witty.

BTW- I don't "actually" beat up old people when I see them... I just steal thier walking devices and pull down thier pants.
Amen AMEN

Though I am Christian I do reconize this problem with the passing of judgement. Infact I am mormon and BEleive Me Mormons can be the most judgemental of all religions. But I see what your saying. ANd I am sorry for any christian that has made you feel like a lesser to them. Because I beleive that your equal to me. You just live life differently to me. But there are certain judgements according to past experiences that can be passed to people that do drugs. Irresposiblity although you might not be Irresponsible in every aspect of your life when it comes to drugs you are. And don't try to fight back and make excuses because it is Irresponsible to do drugs whether you like it or not. But we all have our choices and which ever ones we make don't make us less equal to someone else.
Posted: Thu, 28th Apr 2005, 12:52am

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ssj john

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atom wrote:



Shut up!
This topic has long since retired. Seriously. The only ones scraggling along are those who have just begun posting on the topic without reading what has already been put, and those who are arguing with the wind.
Actually i posted earlier and it got deleted so I am resubmitting my view in a nicer way smile
Posted: Thu, 28th Apr 2005, 12:53am

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Hybrid-Halo

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ssj john wrote:

Ok so heres my opinion on the subject( if you dont want it BITE ME!!!)
This isn't really the right attitude to have, saying "If you dont want it. Bite me!" is a good way of highlighting your post to a Moderator as well as making people aggressive towards you. Wouldn't you think?

THere is no such thing as smoking maryjane responsibly. Because the fact that you do smoke it is irresponsible. And in my opinion people only want mary jane legalized because they think that it will take so guilt off there back (lets all face the facts, people are going to smoke Mary whether it is legal or not.)
Indeed people will smoke it regardless of it's legality, but the current system does not work. I want it to be legalised mainly so that finally as an issue it can be dealt with. There are also untold benefits in terms of how much money can be made from it for our governments.[/quote]

I highly doubt anyone is just waiting for maryjane to be legal just to smoke... all those who want it to be legalized smoke it already.
Many who smoke already want it legalised so that they have the freedom to smoke it, I imagine quite a few artheritis sufferers are waiting for it to be legalised so they can smoke it.

And why would you want to smoke it it ruins your body and i garanetee anyone who dosnt smoke anything is better off in the long run.
People drink, eat candy, eat mcdonalds. Because something is bad for you does not mean that people will not want to do it because they enjoy it.
Irresposiblity although you might not be Irresponsible in every aspect of your life when it comes to drugs you are. And don't try to fight back and make excuses because it is Irresponsible to do drugs whether you like it or not.
And what are you using to determine taking drugs as being an act of irresponsibility? Simply the fact it is illegal. And that's what many people are against. Smoking Marijuana is something that is celebrated under certain religions. The fact that it is bad for you does not make it different from Alcohol, a drug which side effects include making you violent. Infact when Marijuana is put side to side with Alcohol... Alcohol is probably worse.

Smoking Marijuana responsibly is the same as drinking responsibly - To not take to an excess. Marijuana legalisating would not mean everyone that smokes would smoke more or less, it would not mean everyone would become a pothead. Not everyone drinks to an excess yet it's something readily available.

Personally, I'm not sure I want Marijuana legalised, But I don't outright say that anyone that chooses to smoke it is irresponsible.

Last edited Thu, 28th Apr 2005, 1:02am; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Thu, 28th Apr 2005, 1:01am

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ssj john

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Arktic wrote:

THere is no such thing as smoking maryjane responsibly. Because the fact that you do smoke it is irresponsible.
So a person, smoking in their own home, where no harm will come to anyone else is 'irresponsible'? How so?
The Irresponsible part is that Fact that you ruin your body, and it does effect other people.

And in my opinion people only want mary jane legalized because they think that it will take so guilt off there back

No people want it legalised to have the right to choose if they want to indulge in that particular acticity. It's got nothing to do with guilt.
No, because whether it is legalized or not, people can still indulge in it, its one of the most readally availbe illegal drugs on the market. There easy to get your hands on some like i said i doubt anyone is waiting for mary jane to be legalized in order for them to finally actually start smoke it. People who want it legalized are people who already smoke it and just want some of the guilt off there back.

And why would you want to smoke it it ruins your body and i garanetee anyone who dosnt smoke anything is better off in the long run.

Can I ask you this - do you eat chocolate or candy at all? Why would you want to do that? It ruins your body, and I guarentee that anyone who doesn't eat candy or chocolate is better off in the long run.

But wait, is chocolate illegal? I sure hope so - because eating chocolate must be irresponsible!
Chocalate dosnt ruin your body, it does if you eat to much. Soyes it is irresponsible to eat to MUCH chocolate.
Posted: Thu, 28th Apr 2005, 1:04am

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ssj john

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Hybrid-Halo wrote:

ssj john wrote:

Ok so heres my opinion on the subject( if you dont want it BITE ME!!!)
This isn't really the right attitude to have, saying "If you dont want it. Bite me!" is a good way of highlighting your post to a Moderator as well as making people aggressive towards you. Wouldn't you think?
no?
Posted: Thu, 28th Apr 2005, 1:04am

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Atom

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Hybrid-Halo wrote:


I highly doubt anyone is just waiting for maryjane to be legal just to smoke... all those who want it to be legalized smoke it already.
Many who smoke already want it legalised so that they have the freedom to smoke it, I imagine quite a few artheritis sufferers are waiting for it to be legalised so they can smoke it.
I have horrible arthritis due to an auto-immune decease. I have no intention of smoking it.
OMG! A person who doesn't want to do something horrible?!?!? Who would figure!?!?!?

And not having the right attitude, Hybrid? Pro-pot is the wrong attitude to start with, itself.




Now, stop.
Posted: Thu, 28th Apr 2005, 1:07am

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Arktic

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ssj john - you appear to have entirely missed what I was saying.

I don't understand how it's irresposible for me to decide what I do or do not do to my body, as long as I take precautions not to harm anyone else in the process. And no, smoking cannabis in my own home would never affect anyone else - unless you can correct me on how exactly it would do?

Chocalate dosnt ruin your body, it does if you eat to much.
And herein lies the crux of my point - yes, if you do too much of one thing, it'll have a detrimental effect. But if you use it responsibly, whether that be controling the ammount of marijuana you smoke, or the ammount of chocolate you eat, then it won't have a GREAT impact upon your body. Hence I should be free to choose how I affect my body or not.
Posted: Thu, 28th Apr 2005, 1:08am

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Hybrid-Halo

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atom wrote:

Hybrid-Halo wrote:


I highly doubt anyone is just waiting for maryjane to be legal just to smoke... all those who want it to be legalized smoke it already.
Many who smoke already want it legalised so that they have the freedom to smoke it, I imagine quite a few artheritis sufferers are waiting for it to be legalised so they can smoke it.
I have horrible arthritis due to an auto-immune decease. I have no intention of smoking it.
OMG! A person who doesn't want to do something horrible?!?!? Who would figure!?!?!?

And not having the right attitude, Hybrid? Pro-pot is the wrong attitude to start with, itself.

Now, stop.
If you'd read all of my post you'd have realised that I am not pro-drug use. Although I am pro-freedom of choice. It seems that in this thread the people most against Marijuana are people who have experienced different facets of life the least.

Please only intelligent debate in this topic.

Last edited Thu, 28th Apr 2005, 1:08am; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Thu, 28th Apr 2005, 1:08am

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ssj john

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I highly doubt anyone is just waiting for maryjane to be legal just to smoke... all those who want it to be legalized smoke it already.
Many who smoke already want it legalised so that they have the freedom to smoke it, I imagine quite a few artheritis sufferers are waiting for it to be legalised so they can smoke it.[/quote]
Yes they want the freedom so that they don't feel guilty of doing something Illegal and if thats not the case than than they wouldn't care if it were illegal or not because they still and would still smoke it
Posted: Thu, 28th Apr 2005, 1:18am

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ssj john

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Arktic wrote:



I don't understand how it's irresposible for me to decide what I do or do not do to my body, as long as I take precautions not to harm anyone else in the process. And no, smoking cannabis in my own home would never affect anyone else - unless you can correct me on how exactly it would do?
Like I said maryjane ruins your body. The damge it does, is permanant not temporary like the effects of chocolate, THere for shortening your life. And there are people who love you arktic whether you like it or not and they live in fear of whether you are going to overdose or not and they watch you as you kill your self.

Arktic wrote:


And herein lies the crux of my point - yes, if you do too
much of one thing, it'll have a detrimental effect. But if you use it responsibly, whether that be controling the ammount of marijuana you smoke, or the ammount of chocolate you eat, then it won't have a GREAT impact upon your body. Hence I should be free to choose how I affect my body or not.
See eating chocolate has an effect on your body.. BUt you can't go to the gym and work off the fat. But you can't go to the gym to get a new lung and get back all the lost brain cells.
Posted: Thu, 28th Apr 2005, 1:22am

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Hybrid-Halo

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ssj john wrote:

Arktic wrote:



I don't understand how it's irresposible for me to decide what I do or do not do to my body, as long as I take precautions not to harm anyone else in the process. And no, smoking cannabis in my own home would never affect anyone else - unless you can correct me on how exactly it would do?
Like I said maryjane ruins your body. The damge it does, is permanant not temporary like the effects of chocolate, THere for shortening your life. And there are people who love you arktic whether you like it or not and they live in fear of whether you are going to overdose or not and they watch you as you kill your self.

Arktic wrote:


And herein lies the crux of my point - yes, if you do too
much of one thing, it'll have a detrimental effect. But if you use it responsibly, whether that be controling the ammount of marijuana you smoke, or the ammount of chocolate you eat, then it won't have a GREAT impact upon your body. Hence I should be free to choose how I affect my body or not.
See eating chocolate has an effect on your body.. BUt you can't go to the gym and work off the fat. But you can't go to the gym to get a new lung and get back all the lost brain cells.
Actually, I believe medical studies have stated that Marijuana smoking does not destroy brain cells or damage the lungs provided it is not smoked in excess. Even if braincells were destroyed in the process. brain cells are constantly being born and so braincell destruction is by no means permanent.
I think you'll also find that consistant binge eating does have permanent negative effects on your body. it seems you have an amusing perception of how the human body works. Problems are not simply taken away via excercise.
Getting drunk, dancing and shaking your head can damage brain cells. I don't see you campaigning against that...

You got any proof for your medical theories?
Posted: Thu, 28th Apr 2005, 1:23am

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Simon K Jones

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atom wrote:

But, please, don't disrepect god, people, it's not your right to say things ill of him,
When did anybody disrespect God? (it's meant to have a capital letter, by the way) I must have missed that.

screw off if you're atheist,
How remarkably tolerant of you. Do you always tell people to 'screw off' if they don't 100% agree with you?

Considering the intelligent, thoughtful and tolerant attitude taken by the atheists, agnostics and the genuinely interested during the recent religious debate, it's a shame you couldn't do the same.

you {Atheists} have no faith to live by anyway
That's such a patently absurd comment, I don't even know where to begin in picking it apart. In fact, there's no need to bother, I'm sure everyone here can see the inherent naivety.

I have horrible arthritis due to an auto-immune decease. I have no intention of smoking it.
OMG! A person who doesn't want to do something horrible?!?!? Who would figure!?!?!?
I'm glad for you. Someone in my family is suffering from horrible, crippliing multiple sclerosis, in its advanced stages, and cannabis is about the only thing that can get him through the day without being in constant, agonising, excruciating pain.

Not everyone is exactly like you, you need to learn this quickly.

Last edited Thu, 28th Apr 2005, 1:25am; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Thu, 28th Apr 2005, 1:25am

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Waser

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you're just mad because you have no soul tarn. NO SOUUUUL!
Posted: Thu, 28th Apr 2005, 1:28am

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Arktic

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ssj john wrote:

they live in fear of whether you are going to overdose
I hope none of my loved ones are quite that ill-informed to think that I can OD on marijuana!
Posted: Thu, 28th Apr 2005, 1:38am

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ssj john

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Hybrid-Halo wrote:

ssj john wrote:

Arktic wrote:



I don't understand how it's irresposible for me to decide what I do or do not do to my body, as long as I take precautions not to harm anyone else in the process. And no, smoking cannabis in my own home would never affect anyone else - unless you can correct me on how exactly it would do?
Like I said maryjane ruins your body. The damge it does, is permanant not temporary like the effects of chocolate, THere for shortening your life. And there are people who love you arktic whether you like it or not and they live in fear of whether you are going to overdose or not and they watch you as you kill your self.

Arktic wrote:


And herein lies the crux of my point - yes, if you do too
much of one thing, it'll have a detrimental effect. But if you use it responsibly, whether that be controling the ammount of marijuana you smoke, or the ammount of chocolate you eat, then it won't have a GREAT impact upon your body. Hence I should be free to choose how I affect my body or not.
See eating chocolate has an effect on your body.. BUt you can't go to the gym and work off the fat. But you can't go to the gym to get a new lung and get back all the lost brain cells.
Actually, I believe medical studies have stated that Marijuana smoking does not destroy brain cells or damage the lungs provided it is not smoked in excess. Even if braincells were destroyed in the process. brain cells are constantly being born and so braincell destruction is by no means permanent.
I think you'll also find that consistant binge eating does have permanent negative effects on your body. it seems you have an amusing perception of how the human body works. Problems are not simply taken away via excercise.
Getting drunk, dancing and shaking your head can damage brain cells. I don't see you campaigning against that...

You got any proof for your medical theories?
Thats because this isn't about banging your head or drinkin if where i would be agianst them but its about good old maryjane. And yes while there are some foods that have permant effects as maryjuiana none of them are as addicting. And Maryjane kills more brain cells then your brain can preduce so if your doing it excessivly then your doing more damge then your body can reapair. BEsides while there are somepeople that can smoke mary jane with out smoking it excessivly most people can't because it is very addictive. So there for the government has to make it illigal for everyone.

and know im going to go do something with my pathetic life because we could sit here and argue for ever. I mean lets face it there is know way your going to persuade me that smoke maryjane is good and there is no way im going to persuade you that it isn't so peace yo
......WORD
Posted: Thu, 28th Apr 2005, 1:40am

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hatsoff2halford

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I can sympathize with Tarn in that I have a family member who was diagnosed with MS as well. Although he isn't to the stage of having to use Marijuana to get him through the day. I hope it never comes to that, but anyways. I agree completely that Marijuana can be used for many good things.

-Logan
Posted: Thu, 28th Apr 2005, 1:42am

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ssj john

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i owuld negate tarns response but he would problably ban me or something besides im going to go do something remeber
Posted: Thu, 28th Apr 2005, 1:43am

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ssj john

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hatsoff2halford wrote:

I can sympathize with Tarn in that I have a family member who was diagnosed with MS as well. Although he isn't to the stage of having to use Marijuana to get him through the day. I hope it never comes to that, but anyways. I agree completely that Marijuana can be used for many good things.

-Logan
as do I as long as it is prescribed by a doctor.
Posted: Thu, 28th Apr 2005, 1:44am

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Arktic

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ssj john, you've proved that you know nothing about this subject, because most of the stuff you've said is factually innacurate.

this isn't about banging your head or drinkin if where i would be agianst them
But I'm glad you support the campaign against banging heads.

Cheers,
Arktic.
Posted: Thu, 28th Apr 2005, 1:44am

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Bryce007

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Of course you can OD on weed. It takes a TON of it, but still, its possible.
Also, That whole postmodernism idea "tolerance" is such a crock, i can't really believe anyone tries to use that as an arguement point.

"tolerance" is a completely inane idea, because in order for you to be tolerant, you cant be. Your pushing your belief of tolerance on Me if your telling me to be tolerant. so in reality, tolerance is a way to escape admitting absolute truth, because they way someone can just say "thats very intolerant of you" when you tell them what they are doing is wrong. Thus, if anyone else bust's out the "thats not very tolerant of you" shtick, then guess what? thats not very tolerant of YOU for telling me that I should be tolerant. and don't try to say this isn't true, because its un-arguable.
Posted: Thu, 28th Apr 2005, 1:46am

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Arktic

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Bryce - it's scientifically impossible to OD on weed.

By the time you've smoked a tiny, tiny fraction of the LD50 level, you'd pass out. And remember, the LD50 level is over 800 strong joints in one sitting.

That's just scientific fact.

I have no idea what you mean when you're talking about by tollerence, sorry.
Posted: Thu, 28th Apr 2005, 1:48am

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Hybrid-Halo

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ssj john wrote:

Maryjane kills more brain cells then your brain can preduce so if your doing it excessivly then your doing more damge then your body can reapair. BEsides while there are somepeople that can smoke mary jane with out smoking it excessivly most people can't because it is very addictive. So there for the government has to make it illigal for everyone.

online resources wrote:

Government experts now admit that pot doesn't kill brain cells.(cool This myth came from a handful of animal experiments in which structural changes (not actual cell death, as is often alleged) were observed in brain cells of animals exposed to high doses of pot. Many critics still cite the notorious monkey studies of Dr. Robert G. Heath, which purported to find brain damage in three monkeys that had been heavily dosed with cannabis.(9) This work was never replicated and has since been discredited by a pair of better controlled, much larger monkey studies, one by Dr. William Slikker of the National Center for Toxicological Research(10) and the other by Charles Rebert and Gordon Pryor of SRI International.(11) Neither found any evidence of physical alteration in the brains of monkeys exposed to daily doses of pot for up to a year. Human studies of heavy users in Jamaica and Costa Rica found no evidence of abnormalities in brain physiology.(12) Even though there is no evidence that pot causes permanent brain damage, users should be aware that persistent deficits in short-term memory have been noted in chronic, heavy marijuana smokers after 6 to 12 weeks of abstinence.(13) It is worth noting that other drugs, including alcohol, are known to cause brain damage.
People who are familiar with marijuana users, because they use it casually themselves, know that the drug can be easily controlled. But, here is the remarkable thing, this is true of all drugs.

On the other hand, you can find highly compulsive marijuana users. But they tend to hang together in subcultures of heavy, destructive users. Likewise, they have few connections to ordinary society where you would run into them.

How do I know these things? Well, first, I get around. Second all collections of data from normal groups of people – including the high school drug use survey (called Monitoring the Future) and the National Household Survey on Drug Abuse find that, of all the people who have used any drug, very few currently use it (that is, most have used it casually or have quit, even if they once used it heavily).

Moreover, very, very few people in these surveys use any drug daily (other than cigarettes, followed at a distance by alcohol). Thus, we really don’t encounter many addicts when we go out and look for them in the regular places. On the other hand, people could say, addicted drug users are not likely to remain in high school, or to have a household where they could be surveyed.

This is true enough. But, in general, users of any and all drugs will quit or control its use. And, it is quite difficult to find addicted drugs users, even users of heroin, who look like the “typical” addicts we imagine based on films we see – the ones who get “cold shakes’ and climb the walls because they can’t get their dose.

As a result, diagnostic tools like the American Psychiatric Association’s DSM-IV don’t really require drug users to go through withdrawal in order to classify them as addicts. Instead, the criteria for what is called “drug dependence” looks how deeply people are immersed in drug use, for its negative consequences for their lives, and for its disturbances of their normal life functioning, including family, work, and health.

But by these kinds of criteria, marijuana users score as being dependent about as often (more, since there are more users of marijuana than of any other illicit drug).

So, I never speak of marijuana as being not addictive, just as I never speak of heroin as being addictive. That’s not how addiction works. People become addicted to a range of substances and involvements. The measure of addiction is the degree to which an involvement usurps people’s life, and yet they cannot curtail the involvement.
If you're a bit dim, summing up my evidence goes as follows:
Is Marijuana addictive : No.
Does Marijuana damage or kill brain cells : No.

SSJ John : Both your points are invalid.

Bryce007 wrote:

Of course you can OD on weed. It takes a TON of it, but still, its possible.

http://www.drugs-plaza.com/marijuana/faq.htm#11. wrote:

It`s almost impossible to overdose marijuana. In the worst case you may puke. This mostly happens if you use too much alcohol with it.
Practicing Tolerance is better than being intolerable and being ill-informed. If Morally smoking Marijuana is wrong then you've made your choice not to smoke already. Some may say you're growing up sheltered but ultimately it's your choice and I respect that. However, your arguments against legalising it for others who wish to choose otherwise through desire or medical aid have all been proven to be myths.
Posted: Thu, 28th Apr 2005, 2:25am

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sidewinder

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The moment this thing became about God it became ridiculous, because everyone instantly and simultaneously missed the point.
Posted: Thu, 28th Apr 2005, 2:27am

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Bryce007

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I completely agree. Everybody can do what they want, and i Entirely dont mind people smoking weed, or anything else like that. I think its good that people make there own decision and don't feel compelled to listen to other peoples opinions, as i do exactly that. What i was trying to say is the idea of "tolerant" is completely absurd and hypocritical, because it directly contradicts itself.


Also, I wasnt referring to OD'ing as Dying from it, i meant it as "having too much"
Posted: Thu, 28th Apr 2005, 2:34am

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Hybrid-Halo

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Bryce007 wrote:

I think its good that people make there own decision and don't feel compelled to listen to other peoples opinions, as i do exactly that.
Isn't this exactly why people want it legalised? Because they feel that they are being forced into committing an illegal act by smoking it purely because of other peoples opinions. smile

Bryce007 wrote:

Also, I wasnt referring to OD'ing as Dying from it, i meant it as "having too much"
In which case I'd agree with you, there are people that smoke too much and they fall under the same category as binge drinkers. The opposite of a 'responsible' user.
Posted: Thu, 28th Apr 2005, 5:25am

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ben3308

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http://www.peak.sfu.ca/the-peak/2002-3/issue2/le-reagan.html

Okay, THAT pretty much sums up my previous post, about 7 pages back (WOW, that's a heck of a lot of conversing!).

But now I have one more thing to say. I guess legalizing marijuana wouldn't be THAT horrible, but what really makes me mad is that many of those on this forum - excuse me, ALL- who want it legalized have or continue smoking it. If you REALLY thought marijuana would do good then you would wait until it was legalized, rather than become a felon by smoking it illegally. And don't give me any crap about how "it's not that bad" and "the laws are unjust". Laws can be unjust; butjust because you don't agree with a law doesn't give you the right to break it.

Hybrid-Halo wrote:

Because they feel that they are being forced into committing an illegal act by smoking it purely because of other peoples opinions.
Okay, now THAT is pathetic. I really don't want to sound condescending here, but do you even hear yourself? Nobody is FORCED to illegally smoke marijuana. They make a conscious decision to break the law, and by law, they should be punished. And those 'other people', you speak of, those would be our LAWMAKERS and legislators, not just some random conservatives.

I'd rather someone who thinks marijuana has beneficial purposes, someone who HASN'T illegally smoked it condone its legalization. THEN, maybe it would be okay in my book. But it's not those good guys who want marijuana legalized, it's the criminal smokers who want it, which is totally bogus.

I think that those who want marijuana legalized- namely those who illegally smoke marijuana- have just developed an apathy for what is right.

Sure, pot may be good and have no downside (which isn't true, but I'm trying to maintain the status quo, here); and the laws prohibiting it may be unjust and unfair, but that doesn't mean that you can decide for yourself how fair the law is, and go and illegally smoke it.

You want to smoke? Then petition the hell out of the thing until the government gives in. Don't go down to a bodego, score a dimebag, and light up. Do it the right way.

Now I have a whole Human Geography video project due in 3 hours and y'all got me sidetracked with this ridiculous discussion....so...peace out and goodnight!
Posted: Thu, 28th Apr 2005, 5:59am

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Waser

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you know what the difference between atom and ben is? ben obviously hits the bong, at least once a month
Posted: Thu, 28th Apr 2005, 6:02am

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Hybrid-Halo

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ben3308 wrote:

Hybrid-Halo wrote:

Because they feel that they are being forced into committing an illegal act by smoking it purely because of other peoples opinions.
Okay, now THAT is pathetic. I really don't want to sound condescending here, but do you even hear yourself? Nobody is FORCED to illegally smoke marijuana. They make a conscious decision to break the law, and by law, they should be punished.
When I say that people are forced into smoking Marijuana I am speaking about the Chronic Arthuritis sufferers who's lives are days of excruciating pain without it as well as people whose religions use it as part of either ritual, prayer or teachings. And whilst you're correct in stating that they're consciously breaking the law I don't think that they should be punished, I don't think you do either.

Personally I'm still undecided on whether or not I believe Marijuana should be legalised for whole public sale (partly due to reasons in the site you linked to), but I do believe that it should be legalised in herb form for medical usage. It's been proven that what currently exists simply does not work. I don't think that makes me pathetic.

You should also know that I am not a Marijuana Smoker, And neither is Former Gwent police head Francis Wilkinson argued alcohol was far more socially damaging than smoking "very safe'' cannabis, saying "distinguishing it from harder drugs would freeze out dealers."

I believe That Cannabis and for that matter drugs as a whole need to be taught about much more thoroughly, Some people in here claiming a whole manner of things 'marijuana do to you' are a product of the result of taboo and "no-go areas" amputating what should be part of every youths knowledge base.
Posted: Thu, 28th Apr 2005, 6:24am

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Madmanmatty

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ben3308 wrote:

http://www.peak.sfu.ca/the-peak/2002-3/issue2/le-reagan.html
Uh... the article doesn't really conclude much. It just basically states that smoking in general is bad. OK. That's fair enough.. I'm trying to quit anyway, lol.

I'd rather someone who thinks marijuana has beneficial purposes, someone who HASN'T illegally smoked it condone its legalization. THEN, maybe it would be okay in my book. But it's not those good guys who want marijuana legalized, it's the criminal smokers who want it, which is totally bogus.
What is bogus about it? Just because we break a law doesn't render us "outlaws" of society! Have you ever loitered? Parked in a no parking zone? Parked to close to a fire hydrant? Jaywalked?
I bet you have you stinker, you!!
The point it, there are different types of crimes: Crimes against humanity, and "boo-boos". Smoking isn't a crime against humanity, it's just a regulation made by the government, which is influenced by religion, politics, and economics.
Religiously, the majority is against legalization.
Politically, it is against legalization.
Economically, it is for. (it would create more revenue)

The problem there, is that the government cannot legalize marijuana because the major religion in an anti-drug establishment, and to deny the religious aspect of the majority violates the politics. But sooner or later, people will relax from religious practices as the horrible spectre of the media, and it's "willy-nilly" antics begins to take precident. That means it will probably be legalized in the future. It's PROBABLY just a matter of time. Living in Canada, we were SO close to decriminalizing pot... in fact, I've been caught by police on one occasion, and they let us off with a "loitering warning". They know we don't mean any harm... we were co-workers, meeting after work to enjoy ourselves and go home. Unfortunately, we could not do this legally... so continuing...

I think that those who want marijuana legalized- namely those who illegally smoke marijuana- have just developed an apathy for what is right.
I don't have apathy for the right thing! I just have a different perception of "right" from you! Hitler thought it was "right" to weed out impurities. Marx thought it was "right" to put the state before oneself. Bush thinks it's "right" to re-organize other countries based on thier system of government. The Chinese think communism works! It's a difference of culture, and standards. I think it's "alright" to smoke a joint occasionally. Just because you don't, doesn't mean you are right necessarily. It just means you have a different standard abd culture than I. I respect your difference, and hence, would not "light up" in your prescene, if such was your wish... but you should have the same attitude- calling people pathetic because they don't measure up to your standards is like Hitler calling the Jews pathetic because they don't measure up to his!!

Sure, pot may be good and have no downside (which isn't true, but I'm trying to maintain the status quo, here); and the laws prohibiting it may be unjust and unfair, but that doesn't mean that you can decide for yourself how fair the law is, and go and illegally smoke it. You want to smoke? Then petition the hell out of the thing until the government gives in. Don't go down to a bodego, score a dimebag, and light up. Do it the right way.
The government is slow. And biased. And stubborn.
When you REALLY want something, you go out and fight for it. Think of if Jesus had gone to the Romans with a petition, proclaiming him the heir to the throne of David!!! HAHAH! He would have been crucified!!! oh wait... urgh...

I don't think this law is unjust, but I do belive it is founded on supersition and assumptions. There has been a preconception of marijuana for so long that it just makes sense to continue outlawing it... but that is changing. More and more people are smoking pot, and dispelling the "evil mythology" surrounding it. It's not a "Reefer Madness" crazed spree... the more people that go around the law, the more the government will be willing to re-consider the validity of the said law. It's rule of the masses... power to the people.

Now I have a whole Human Geography video project due in 3 hours and y'all got me sidetracked with this ridiculous discussion....so...peace out and goodnight!
Good luck on your project!
Posted: Thu, 28th Apr 2005, 8:23am

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A Pickle

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No, because God is perfect - We are no where near perfect spiritually, but we are built perfectly. (Skeletal system, respiratory system, brain, hands, feet, etc.)
Hardly. If human beings were built "perfectly" we have have certain biological adaptations we do not have, such as inverse-jointed knees (like those on the hind legs of dogs). bigger ears, ocular readjustments etc.

http://www.dnaftb.org/bioinformatics/Resources/sciam/sciam_p94.pdf

Sorry if I seem a bit, harsh, but God put us together ... somewhat... incorrectly.

And herein lies the crux of my point - yes, if you do too much of one thing, it'll have a detrimental effect. But if you use it responsibly, whether that be controling the ammount of marijuana you smoke, or the ammount of chocolate you eat, then it won't have a GREAT impact upon your body.
No, it can't. Trust me, if you responsibly shoot yourself in the head, it will not do you any good.

You can kill yourself by imbibing in too much water, did you know that's how the drug Ecstasy kills? People become too thirsty, and their body is unable to tell them when it's no longer thirsty. People drink too much, and flagrantly disrupting the the rather redundant balance of electrolytes to water. Huzzah, hyponatremia.

It takes several gallons of water in a given amount of time in order to achieve this desalinated state.

Now then, your minimum recommended water consumption is about 4 eight ounce glasses a day. Now, we could be technical, and say that for the facts of debate, you'd have to smoke, eat, or drink (via tea) an equal mass of marijuana. You and I both know that the individual who so much as tries to smoke thirty-two ounces of cannabis daily is a lost soul.

However, what facts people have gathered about cannabis come from smokers who smoke mere "joints" and whatnot daily. Towards the end of life, they get lung cancer and a wonderful collection of other potential debilitating illnesses or conditions.

Even if braincells were destroyed in the process. brain cells are constantly being born and so braincell destruction is by no means permanent.
The rate of braincell production is interminably slow, but marijuana really doesn't kill braincells.

Practicing Tolerance is better than being intolerable and being ill-informed.
Denying truths is quite a respiteable habit as well, such as denying the health problems NORML even cites to being true. Lung cancer etc. etc.
Posted: Thu, 28th Apr 2005, 11:18am

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Mellifluous

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ben3308 wrote:


Okay, now THAT is pathetic. I really don't want to sound condescending here, but do you even hear yourself? Nobody is FORCED to illegally smoke marijuana. They make a conscious decision to break the law, and by law, they should be punished. And those 'other people', you speak of, those would be our LAWMAKERS and legislators, not just some random conservatives.

I'd rather someone who thinks marijuana has beneficial purposes, someone who HASN'T illegally smoked it condone its legalization. THEN, maybe it would be okay in my book. But it's not those good guys who want marijuana legalized, it's the criminal smokers who want it, which is totally bogus.

I think that those who want marijuana legalized- namely those who illegally smoke marijuana- have just developed an apathy for what is right.
You have better arguing skills than your bro but I think you're missing the point. Hybrid was saying that people were doing something not harming others that by default was dubbed illegal. If you want to, you can argue your ALL HAIL THE LAW argument again but there have been many times when the law has been found wanting, & changed. Unfortunately, this takes time, & many people don't want to respectfully wait 20 years until the law changes.

If it's not the criminal smokers who want the law changing, then who else is it going to be? Back in the day, it was the women who wanted the vote, not some male onlooker, & it was black people who first wanted equality, not some white politician. Also, there are plenty of people actually medically AFFECTED by not having legal access to marijuana call for its legalisation. Do they count in your book?

And I'm sure there are many people on here who support the legalisation of it but who don't take it themselves, myself included.

Summary of arguments:

Against:

Illegal - yeh. It's illegal. That's the point.
You can OD - No you can't.
Effects on brain & body - ok, may be point here, but needs more research. Plus, choice.
Body is a temple - cigarettes are even worse & I've seen plenty of Christians & Catholics smoke them. Alcohol too, but wine is a major part of the faith.

For:

Cigarettes are legal.
Choice.
Responsibly taken, harms no one else.
Helps people with illnesses.
Can't OD
Posted: Thu, 28th Apr 2005, 12:23pm

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Arktic

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If you REALLY thought marijuana would do good then you would wait until it was legalized, rather than become a felon by smoking it illegally
Just like how, back in the day, Irene Morgan or Rosa Parks should have just gone to the back of a bus because she was black, rather than doing what she wanted, because that's what the law told her to do. Those pesky civil rights people, when will they learn? We should all wait untill the law is changed before we act on something, even if we feel that it's wholly unjust to us.
Posted: Thu, 28th Apr 2005, 12:38pm

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Mellifluous

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It's good to reinforce points & all, but just wondering if you read the post above yours... razz
Posted: Thu, 28th Apr 2005, 6:32pm

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Arktic

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Heh, it'd be a lie to say that I read it properly, sorry wink
Posted: Thu, 28th Apr 2005, 6:50pm

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Mellifluous

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Lol, v funny that we both use "back in the day" unsure
Posted: Thu, 28th Apr 2005, 7:44pm

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Arktic

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Indeed - how very odd.

Ah well, as they say, great minds and all that smile
Posted: Thu, 28th Apr 2005, 8:16pm

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Evman

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i haven't read every word on this thread, but i didn't see it mentioned that the only way to fight marijuana use is to legalize it. People who want to stop using it can seek help without fear of getting arrested. The only form of marijuana would be "clean" marijuana, so that the really deadly stuff would be all but abolished (why get something that costs more and is illegal when you can get something cheaper thats safer and you won't get in trouble using it?)

Simply saying "don't smoke it" will make people want to smoke it. Its almost an instinct for us to break the rules, so if we make it available, it won't get as much attention, and thus people won't think that it is so, for lack of a better word, cool... Im not saying I support marijuana, cause I don't. I think the best way to limit its use is not with cops, but with laws... or in this case, removal of laws. Afterall, you can overdose on anything... even milk.
Posted: Thu, 28th Apr 2005, 8:54pm

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Aculag

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Rating: +2

This year alone, probably 5 college aged students have died in Colorado because of alchohol poisoning. And I know there have been many more than that nationwide, and people die all the time due to drunk driving, alcohol poisoning, and other alcohol related "accidents". How many people do you hear of who die of Marijuana poisoning, or someone was driving while high and died and killed their friends? I can't think of any. I'm not saying that kind of thing doesn't happen (well, the overdose thing doesn't, anyway), just that it's not anywhere near as common as alcohol related problems.

How often do abusive husbands come home high, and beat their wives and children?

How often do people smoke so much marijuana that they pass out and choke to death on their own vomit?

These things just don't happen. People don't die from smoking marijuana.

If there is going to be a prohibition on marijuana, then alcohol should also be illegal. Mind you, that won't stop people from making bathtub gin and selling it to their friends, but the fact that marijuana is illegal doesn't stop people from growing and selling it.

Yes, smoking anything is hazardous to your health, since smoke is an alien (to the body) irritant, and it can cause harm. But people who smoke weed every day tend to only cough when they're smoking it. If they also smoke cigarettes, they are more likely to cough a lot when not smoking something. I had some friends who smoked marijuana several times a day, and I never heard them cough unless they were smoking. I currently have a friend who doesn't smoke marijuana, but smokes far too many cigarettes, and he sounds like he's dying of lung cancer. Cigarettes contain nicotine, which is a proven addictive drug. Marijuana is NOT addictive, no matter what anyone tells you. Certain people who have addictive personalities will believe they're addicted to it simply because they have to have that vice, but their addiction is purely psychological, as opposed to cigarettes, which will induce withdrawl symptoms. The withdrawl won't last long, but it's enough for the person to say "I'm going to buy a pack of smokes", instead of just waiting it out.

If marijuana is illegal, so then should be cigarettes, as they are far more habit-forming, and far more deadly, statistically.

So if alcohol and cigarettes are both far more dangerous than marijuana, why are they both legal when marijuana is not? Simple: The government taxes alcohol and cigarettes, and it does not tax marijuana, and it therefore makes money on alcohol and tobacco sales.

If the government were to make alcohol and tobacco illegal, there goes one of their top money makers. Not as many people smoke marijuana as they do smoke cigarettes, cigars, pipes, etc. and drink alcohol, so marijuana can stay illegal while the far more dangerous substances (alcohol and tobacco) are kept legal to anyone above a certain age that has nothing to do with responsibility. I personally think age restrictions are a load of crap anyway, since time is a fairly abstract concept, when mental maturity is not.

Just keep the stuff I said in mind. People can drink a 15 dollar bottle of vodka and die from it. You could smoke a pound of marijuana and you'd eventually just fall asleep and feel a little sick the next day because you had a lack of oxygen the night before due to all the smoke you ingested.

Thumbs up for long posts!
Posted: Fri, 29th Apr 2005, 12:36am

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Atom

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Waser wrote:

you know what the difference between atom and ben is? ben obviously hits the bong, at least once a month

Mellifluous wrote:

You have better arguing skills than your bro but I think you're missing the point.
You guys suck! smile
Posted: Fri, 29th Apr 2005, 12:50am

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Waser

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I'm glad more and more people are becoming libertarian (or at least having libertarian views on personal freedoms). It's a beautiful thing
Posted: Fri, 29th Apr 2005, 1:16am

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sidewinder

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Yes. Take that, Communism!
Posted: Fri, 29th Apr 2005, 2:11am

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ben3308

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Madmanmatty wrote:

ben3308 wrote:

http://www.peak.sfu.ca/the-peak/2002-3/issue2/le-reagan.html
Uh... the article doesn't really conclude much. It just basically states that smoking in general is bad. OK. That's fair enough.. I'm trying to quit anyway, lol.

I'd rather someone who thinks marijuana has beneficial purposes, someone who HASN'T illegally smoked it condone its legalization. THEN, maybe it would be okay in my book. But it's not those good guys who want marijuana legalized, it's the criminal smokers who want it, which is totally bogus.
What is bogus about it? Just because we break a law doesn't render us "outlaws" of society! Have you ever loitered? Parked in a no parking zone? Parked to close to a fire hydrant? Jaywalked?
The only one of those I've done is Jaywalked, and there were absolutely no cars on the road. Parking next to a fire hydrant or on a red line is dngerous, and can hinder the efficiency of the fire department; which can mean big problems for people with their apartments or what have you burning down. That's why there are laws against such things, and I think the punishments ($250 fines, usually) fit the crime.


Madmanmatty wrote:

I think that those who want marijuana legalized- namely those who illegally smoke marijuana- have just developed an apathy for what is right.
I don't have apathy for the right thing! I just have a different perception of "right" from you! Hitler thought it was "right" to weed out impurities. Marx thought it was "right" to put the state before oneself.
By apathy for the 'right' thing, I meant one's inclination to obey the law, perhaps we misunderstand eachother.

Madmanmatty wrote:

I respect your difference, and hence, would not "light up" in your prescene, if such was your wish...
Thank you, I respect you for that.

Madmanmatty wrote:

...but you should have the same attitude- calling people pathetic because they don't measure up to your standards is like Hitler calling the Jews pathetic because they don't measure up to his!!
While your statement is somewhat analogous, Hitler's ethnic cleansing and genocidal ideals are hardly comparable to the government's prohibition of cannabis. These are just two separate things, that's all I'm saying.

Madmanmatty wrote:

The government is slow. And biased. And stubborn.
When you REALLY want something, you go out and fight for it.
I agree with you there, man.

Madmanmatty wrote:

Think of if Jesus had gone to the Romans with a petition, proclaiming him the heir to the throne of David!!! HAHAH! He would have been crucified!!! oh wait... urgh...
Uh....Jesus wasn't fighting for his right to get high; as was aforementioned, this is a fairly different scenario. I understand your analogy, and why you find it applicable, but I disagree with it.

Madmanmatty wrote:

Now I have a whole Human Geography video project due in 3 hours and y'all got me sidetracked with this ridiculous discussion....so...peace out and goodnight!
Good luck on your project!
I decided to capture and edit my two weels worth of footage at the last minute, and it backfired; I could not get my camera to sync with the computer, and......

.....well let's just say it wasn't easy trying to start and finish a brand new project 15 minutes before second period....AND the AP Exam is this coming Monday. At least I have FXHome to come to during school when I'm bored.

Thank god for FXHome.
Posted: Fri, 29th Apr 2005, 3:51am

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Atom

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I'm totally frickin watching MTV2, "All Eyes on 50 Cent", and I just realized how many more things are more ridiculous than smoking pot.
Posted: Fri, 29th Apr 2005, 3:57am

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Bryce007

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Like the way fifty cent shyly mumbles through an interview, but while doing so brags like no one else. and ontop of that, his new cd sucks balls. (then again, so does he and G(ay)-unit.

Last edited Fri, 29th Apr 2005, 9:03am; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Fri, 29th Apr 2005, 4:55am

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Aculag

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Hey man, don't front. 50 Cent was shot, ok? That's a gangsta lyfe, if there ever was one.
Posted: Fri, 29th Apr 2005, 6:30am

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Hybrid-Halo

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I think this thread is reaching it's last breaths, some excellent points have been made here and it's nice to see a thread on what I consider to be a rather difficult topic pass through on FXhome with fairly few hitches, I know few forums around that would have been able to discuss this so passively. smile

Personally I see Marijuana as a part of the student experience, regardless of whether you choose to smoke it or not it is likely to be something you will be introduced to you during your student lifetime, as you will many, many other things. Maybe it's different in America than to over here due to the legal drinking age, however... drugs, alcohol and sex are all things that get introduced into your life as a growing person, and all of them are things that bring responsibility with them.

Ben/Atom - I would probably have argued your point of view 6 years ago, because back then I had no comprehension of any drug. I was only familiar with alcohol and sex because of education and advertisements and they became 'norm' to me. It was only around 17-18 that I really started learning anything about drugs, something I'd dabbled in but it never remained an interest. I do respect your views on this subject, but I do think that your opinions will change as you grow and start to experience more. As it's been pointed out, there are far more dangerous things to do than to smoke Marijuana occasionally with friends. This rather ridiculous gun culture for example or... Extreme sports smile

In theory, it's possible to get addicted to any Vice. It's down to the responsibility and rationale of an individual. Choosing not to drink or do drugs is a pretty clever choice though one few people will take. Though I believe whichever the majority of people take, have the responsibility to do sensibly.