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Against Racism !!!

Posted: Sun, 16th Oct 2005, 10:53am

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devilskater

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Hi my fellow members,
I live in a country, where there is alot of hatred and racism towards certain groups. The strength of Nationalism is growing... The political party "FPÖ", which is known to have lots of right-winged members in it, are becoming very popular...on the 23rd october, Vienna is going to vote the next mayor...

I was bored on one day, and thinking about the current situation in my country... I came up with this...:



I know it is not much, but it was fun making, and it does bring a message to the people...so if you feel like showing your support against racism...it would be nice if you could also make a pic like mine...best pic gets 5 Force points from me !!!!! biggrin

Cheers,
devilskater
Posted: Sun, 16th Oct 2005, 5:01pm

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Bryce007

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Good "Idea"....but...that poster looks REALLY....sort of 3rd grade-ish.

Last edited Sun, 16th Oct 2005, 9:09pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Sun, 16th Oct 2005, 6:08pm

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Zero767

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Here is mine...it is ok.

Posted: Sun, 16th Oct 2005, 7:28pm

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jstow222

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IM glad to see someone out there is taking a stand against racism and making pretty pictures in doing so.
Posted: Sun, 16th Oct 2005, 8:12pm

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Klausky

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You are right racism isn't cool. However, look back into the history of man; The Native Americans, Africans, Irish, and Indians. Each culture was supressed because another country thought they were better. Its a flaw in human society, but its always going to occur. The only antidote is to grow some thick skin and ignore it. Don't get me wrong, I think racism is evil, and i am not a racist.
Posted: Sun, 16th Oct 2005, 8:18pm

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Arktic

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lisab8519 wrote:

Its a flaw in human society, but its always going to occur. The only antidote is to grow some thick skin and ignore it. Don't get me wrong, I think racism is evil, and i am not a racist.
That's utter, utter BS.

Shall we say murder is just a 'human flaw' and grow thick skin about that then?

Oh good, that's sorted, I hope you don't mind while I murder your family then...
Posted: Sun, 16th Oct 2005, 8:22pm

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CX3

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*high fives arktic*
Posted: Sun, 16th Oct 2005, 8:33pm

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DigiSm89

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Lisab8195 is correct in that it is a flaw in society, and not just the human society, but in all societies. There are always going to be people who dislike other people, groups who take dominance over other groups due to an ever changing world, and people who associate with others.

Then you get into wars, battles over lands, and dominance (such as control of a land)...

These things exist in a developing society no matter what. (yes, a society that has no intentions of developing will probably be immune to these sort of negative events)



DigiSm89
Posted: Sun, 16th Oct 2005, 8:38pm

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Klausky

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Arktic wrote:


Oh good, that's sorted, I hope you don't mind while I murder your family then...
First off, I did enjoy your rebuttal, but you probably know murder is against the law. The cure to stop murder is punishment by law. Thats why there are not as many cases of murder in today's society. Nobody wants to get in trouble and go to jail.

Secondly, for us Americans, making a racist comment could be argued as freedom of speech. Thats why comedians can go on rants about other nationalities. So, if I made a racist comment I am not going to go to jail or be punished by law. This means it is up to you to respond correctly. Some choose violence which leads to punishment, while some ignore it and go on with their lives.
Posted: Sun, 16th Oct 2005, 8:40pm

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jstow222

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While some still make pictures in mspaint.
Posted: Sun, 16th Oct 2005, 8:57pm

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Arktic

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Thats why there are not as many cases of murder in today's society.
Really? I'd be tempted to argue otherwise.

And just beacuse something isn't against the law, it doesn't mean it's not stupid.
Posted: Sun, 16th Oct 2005, 9:09pm

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Bryce007

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Well, You can't force someone to Not be racist, so really, the best you can do is show you're against it. and digisim..What did you mean when you said " and not just the human society, but in all societies"? Are you trying to say there's racist animals?
Posted: Sun, 16th Oct 2005, 9:09pm

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Klausky

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I was just saying murder is not a common act. Of course it happens, but its not like you see it every day out in public because most law abiding citizens fear the punishment against murder.

Racism is stupid, thats why I said it was evil.
Posted: Sun, 16th Oct 2005, 9:18pm

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da CHINESE DRAGON

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Arktic wrote:

And just beacuse something isn't against the law, it doesn't mean it's not stupid.
Are you saying freedom of speech is stupid? People should be able to have their own opinions and voice them even if you do not think they are right. I do not think they are right either but I am not going to try to oppress my beliefs on them which is just as bad or even worse as them saying their racist comments. Now if they take action on them that is a whole different story.

Murder IS a human flaw and that is why it needs to be punished.

And one more thing. If racism is not a human flaw where does it come from? Racism will always be around and all you can do is ignore the people with racist beliefs and hopefully they will shut up.
Posted: Sun, 16th Oct 2005, 9:41pm

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TheRenegade

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Can we all just stick to the topic for once and put aside our petty rants?
Posted: Sun, 16th Oct 2005, 9:46pm

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shiftd

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So as long as there is man, there is war. - Albert Einstein

End of dicussion.
Posted: Sun, 16th Oct 2005, 9:53pm

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Zeolahn

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I'm a minority in this country, so us Minorities make fun of each other. It's our right. And it is fun.

So, in that sense, racism is fun.
Posted: Sun, 16th Oct 2005, 10:20pm

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CX3

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Zeolahn, remind me to hit u man..
Posted: Sun, 16th Oct 2005, 10:48pm

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Pooky

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Oh yeah, having fun at someone else's loss is great fun!
Posted: Sun, 16th Oct 2005, 11:12pm

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jstow222

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pooky wrote:

Oh yeah, having fun at someone else's loss is great fun!
I wouldn't say that those of different races are at a loss.
Posted: Sun, 16th Oct 2005, 11:16pm

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Pooky

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Oops, I meant someone else's expense.
Posted: Sun, 16th Oct 2005, 11:17pm

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DigiSm89

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Perpetuating racism doesn't help at all...
Posted: Sun, 16th Oct 2005, 11:39pm

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Mellifluous

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DigiSm89 wrote:

Lisab8195 is correct in that it is a flaw in society, and not just the human society, but in all societies.
?

Does racism occur among ants, then?

I just don't get racism. I understand why wars between certain groups occur but I just don't get the mental processes behind racism.

See, I understand why certain groups are weary of each other because they've treated each other bad (e.g. Irish and English) but I really don't get being prejudiced because of a way a person looks, especially in today's society.

Using words such as flaw indicate it's normal, natural, but it isn't. Racism is rooted in colonialist/slavery periods that are relatively recent - that was when mankind really started differentiating about colour of skin. Before then we had wars between groups but colour was not the issue, land, money etc were. Socially, we're a lot different and so a person's race just shouldn't be an issue.
Posted: Sun, 16th Oct 2005, 11:41pm

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Simon K Jones

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lisab8195 wrote:

First off, I did enjoy your rebuttal, but you probably know murder is against the law. The cure to stop murder is punishment by law. Thats why there are not as many cases of murder in today's society. Nobody wants to get in trouble and go to jail.

Secondly, for us Americans, making a racist comment could be argued as freedom of speech. Thats why comedians can go on rants about other nationalities. So, if I made a racist comment I am not going to go to jail or be punished by law. This means it is up to you to respond correctly. Some choose violence which leads to punishment, while some ignore it and go on with their lives.
Wait a minute....are you saying the only reason you don't murder people is because you might get caught and put in jail?

Surely your own personal morals/ethics, what you consider right/wrong, your appreciation for other people, for life etc....doesn't any of that have any bearing?

Or is it simply because you're afraid you might get caught?

Worrying.

As for people saying you should just ignore it - frankly, that's as good as condoning it. When you see bad things occurring, you should step in to try and stop it, if it is within your power. If you encounter someone voicing racist comments, you should make your own opinions felt, show them your point of view. They might not listen, but at least the truth is where it needs to be. If you say nothing, then they will probably presume that you agree with them - is that really what you want?
Posted: Sun, 16th Oct 2005, 11:56pm

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Zea

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lisab8195 wrote:



Secondly, for us Americans, making a racist comment could be argued as freedom of speech. Thats why comedians can go on rants about other nationalities. So, if I made a racist comment I am not going to go to jail or be punished by law. This means it is up to you to respond correctly. Some choose violence which leads to punishment, while some ignore it and go on with their lives.
...and murder can also be considered "freedom of speech."

Z
Posted: Sun, 16th Oct 2005, 11:58pm

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Bryce007

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Mellifluous wrote:

DigiSm89 wrote:

Lisab8195 is correct in that it is a flaw in society, and not just the human society, but in all societies.
Does racism occur among ants, then?
Hehe..i asked the same question a page back..i really didnt get what that meant.
Posted: Sun, 16th Oct 2005, 11:58pm

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Pooky

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Pretty much any human emotion/action can be considered freedom of speech, basically.
Posted: Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 12:06am

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Klausky

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Zea wrote:



...and murder can also be considered "freedom of speech."

Z
I hope your joking. Basically your saying the government should respect you killing some one because you are expressing your anger and hatred towards them?
Posted: Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 1:23am

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Zea

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It might make sense referring to the beginning of your posts on this thread, Lisab.
Posted: Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 1:34am

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Lithium Kraft

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Ok guys, I think it's about time for a group hug...
Posted: Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 1:42am

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Kid

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This topic will be deleted imminently since politics and religion are banned on the forum, however I thought I'd throw in my two cents.

Rasicm is pretty displicable, I will not stand for it. However something which annoys me more is when members of a minority use it as an excuse for their problems (usually self caused by laziness/drugs/alcohol). It undermines any attempts to stamp out racism

Also another thing which annoys me is use of the word nigger. Either it is ok to say or its not. Black people using it to mean brother or whatever while frowning on white people using it is in itself highly racist. If its offensive then no one should be using it. Epecially in music, I shouldn't have to feel abusivise if I'm singing along to some track I like and suddenly it starts going on about niggers.

Using freedom of speech as an excuse for racism is also not ok. Allowing people to make racist comments under that banner makes it seem that it is ok when it isn't. Freedom of speech is too often used as an excuse when people say something they know is wrong.

More people need to watch star trek as they grow up, that way they'll learn tolerance and it wont matter what shade of brown or blue you are. razz

Last edited Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 11:43am; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 1:56am

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Klausky

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I have seriously learned my lesson to never post my opinion on a controversial issue. I feel like road kill being picked apart by vultures, every single word I wrote was ridiculed. In the end I need to respect other opinions while mine needs to be as well.
Posted: Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 2:01am

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Kid

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lisab8195 wrote:

I have seriously learned my lesson to never post my opinion on a controversial issue. I feel like road kill being picked apart by vultures, every single word I wrote was ridiculed. In the end I need to respect other opinions while mine needs to be as well.
Thats the internet for you. smile The thing about contraversial issues is that they are contraversial. People come from different backgrounds and will have unique views on something that may seem obvious to you.
Posted: Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 2:34am

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ben3308

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Speaking of racism, someone on my MySpace posted something interesting lately that I think for the most part, if you pick away the bias, is true.

MySpace friend wrote:

You pass me on the street and sneer in my direction.
You call me "Cracker", "Honkey", "Whitey" and even "The Man" and you think it's OK.
But when I call you, "N*gger", "Kike", "Towelhead", "Sand-N*gger", "Dune Coon", "Camel Jockey", "Beaner" or "Ch*nk" you call me a racist.

You say that whites commit a lot of violence against you, so why are the ghettos the most dangerous places to live?

You say that you want to make a change in this country.
How? By protesting everything that we believe in? By trying to change everything that has made this country run fine for centuries?

You have Martin Luther King Day.
You have Cesar Chavez Day.
You have Yom Hashoah
You have Cinco de Mayo
You have Ma'uled Al-Nabi
You have BET.

If we had WET(white entertainment television) we'd be racists.

If we had a White Pride Day you would call us racists.

If we had white history month, we'd be racists.

In the Million Man March, you believed that you were marching for your race and rights.
If we marched for our race and rights, you would call us racists.

You enjoy the thought of Driver's Licenses for illegals.
We enjoy the thought of people obeying the laws of the land in which they reside. No negotiations.

You are proud to be black, brown, yellow and orange, and you're not afraid to announce it.
But when we announce our white pride, you call us racists.

You call each other "niggas", and in doing that you're saying its okay that it doesnt offend you, but when we say it...its racist.

You rob us, carjack us, and shoot at us.
But, when a white police officer shoots a black gang member or beats up a black drug-dealer running from the law and posing a threat to society, you call him a racist.

You can have Hispanic clubs and Africans American clubs but we couldnt even think of starting a white club without there being controversy

I am white.
I am proud.
I am an American.

But, you call me a racist.
Why is it that only whites can be racists?
Just a little something to think about. The friend who posted it is bi-racial, which is an interesting perspective considering the racial tone of this. (Chavs don't apply here, though, even if they are white)

Postscript: Just realized that there are racial slurs in this. Dunno if those are restricted, but considering the context they're used in I don't think this is that bad.
Posted: Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 2:37am

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Kid

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Ah you see that is racist too. Not all black people are racist in that way.
Posted: Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 2:48am

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ben3308

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Kid wrote:

Ah you see that is racist too. Not all black people are racist in that way.
It never referrs to ALL black people, or black people explicitly for that matter. It's about racism against white people in general, not racism from any particular group in general.
Posted: Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 3:01am

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Kid

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ben3308 wrote:

Kid wrote:

Ah you see that is racist too. Not all black people are racist in that way.
It never referrs to ALL black people, or black people explicitly for that matter. It's about racism against white people in general, not racism from any particular group in general.
No but it mentions several things that are specific to several races, most being black. And points out daft things. You cant deny that black people were enslaved or suffered from segregation and oppression. Martin Luther King was great for helping to start the end of that. Some of the other days are just moronic but again you can't blame that on the minority that is for, it is the fault of all Americans.

I am human.
I am proud.
...not to be an american. smile
Posted: Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 5:01am

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ben3308

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Kid wrote:

ben3308 wrote:

Kid wrote:

Ah you see that is racist too. Not all black people are racist in that way.
It never referrs to ALL black people, or black people explicitly for that matter. It's about racism against white people in general, not racism from any particular group in general.
No but it mentions several things that are specific to several races, most being black. And points out daft things. You cant deny that black people were enslaved or suffered from segregation and oppression. Martin Luther King was great for helping to start the end of that. Some of the other days are just moronic but again you can't blame that on the minority that is for, it is the fault of all Americans.

I am human.
I am proud.
...not to be an american. smile
I think you're missing the point. It's not putting down the days or traditions listed, it's trying to encourage days and traditions for another race. It's less of a "if we don't have days you don't have days" and more of a "why can't we have days to celebrate as well" sort of thing. I dunno, I can't really put it into words.

And what does blacks suffering from oppression have to do with anything? It didn't say that blacks didn't earn a "day" through trials and tribulations, it just points out that if similar circumstances included whites instead of other races, people would condemn it.

This isn't blaming others or minorities for having daft holidays or events, it's merely drawing them out to encourage a point. There's nothing wrong with things like LULAC or the NAACP, but were there any centrally white, race-based organization for Caucasians, it would be shunned and considered racist. I'm glad that there are groups for the advancement of races, Lord knows they need it at times, but what about my race?

Just think about what I'm trying to say here.

And proud not to be an American? Dude, what is that all about. America rocks. I've lived here my entire life and have never domestically experienced any problems with crime or the economy or anything. Foreigners can talk all the crap they want about America, but unless you've lived here you can't really know anything about it.
Posted: Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 5:47am

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Coureur de Bois

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This thread started with good intentions but I fear that it has spiraled into a totally different realm. Way to stay on topic as usual people.

3...

2...

1...

Bahleeted!

Last edited Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 6:13am; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 6:10am

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Serpent

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I see what ben's saying, and it is completely true, I see it everyday in my school. In most US places, racism from many African Americans towards white Americans is becoming more common than the other way around.
Posted: Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 6:13am

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Waser

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ben3308 wrote:

Foreigners can talk all the crap they want about America, but unless you've lived here you can't really know anything about it.
Don't worry everyone. I've lived here my whole life (minus a little bit in Denmark) and I can vouch that the US insnt perfect. Not saying it's worse than the UK though, you guys are pretty sucky too. You too Norway.
Posted: Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 6:45am

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The Artur

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We got things pretty good up here in Canada smile

Except gay marriages sad - which i'm total against. ( But there i go again being prejudice, ( not like i ever was before though ( i wasnt racist ) ) )
Posted: Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 7:25am

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Zeroman

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Artur L wrote:

We got things pretty good up here in Canada smile

Except gay marriages sad - which i'm total against. ( But there i go again being prejudice, ( not like i ever was before though ( i wasnt racist ) ) )
Must... not... start... debate.

Seriously, talking about gay marriages will just start another debate.

Personally, I think FXHome should have a section of the forums for religion / philosophy / politics, as you can really see things from other perspectives and consider if what you believe in is right.
Posted: Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 7:29am

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Waser

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we could call it The Tinkle Pit
Posted: Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 7:50am

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jstow222

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I think all those things fall under general chat. And personally, this is the kind of stuff that this forum needs. This is the best discussion i have seen on here in quite a while.
Posted: Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 7:50am

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er-no

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Waser wrote:

we could call it The Tinkle Pit
or

'Life, the Universe and Everything (+1 gay)'
Posted: Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 11:40am

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Kid

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ben3308 wrote:

Kid wrote:

ben3308 wrote:

Kid wrote:

Ah you see that is racist too. Not all black people are racist in that way.
It never referrs to ALL black people, or black people explicitly for that matter. It's about racism against white people in general, not racism from any particular group in general.
No but it mentions several things that are specific to several races, most being black. And points out daft things. You cant deny that black people were enslaved or suffered from segregation and oppression. Martin Luther King was great for helping to start the end of that. Some of the other days are just moronic but again you can't blame that on the minority that is for, it is the fault of all Americans.

I am human.
I am proud.
...not to be an american. smile
I think you're missing the point. It's not putting down the days or traditions listed, it's trying to encourage days and traditions for another race. It's less of a "if we don't have days you don't have days" and more of a "why can't we have days to celebrate as well" sort of thing. I dunno, I can't really put it into words.

And what does blacks suffering from oppression have to do with anything? It didn't say that blacks didn't earn a "day" through trials and tribulations, it just points out that if similar circumstances included whites instead of other races, people would condemn it.
And you seem to be missing my point which is that all those days are for a person or event and not just an ethnic group. There are plenty of similar days for white people again for specific people/events and not the group as a whole.

ben3308 wrote:

And proud not to be an American? Dude, what is that all about. America rocks. I've lived here my entire life and have never domestically experienced any problems with crime or the economy or anything. Foreigners can talk all the crap they want about America, but unless you've lived here you can't really know anything about it.
Firstly I was only joking so don't get too worked up about it. Secondly what you fail to realise is that America is exposed to the rest of the world much more than it is to them. Most Americans on the net and I expect generally have no idea what's going on in other countries either through ignorance or arrogance. Yet they still blindly say that America is the best place to live and that everyone should be made as 'free' as them. That's what I find amusing about American pride.
Posted: Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 11:58am

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Coureur de Bois

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America: The Land of the Free and the home of Hypocrisy.

/RATM

Now, back to the topic:



...errr I mean Racism. Stop Racism... that's it.
Posted: Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 12:01pm

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Arktic

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In regards to what Ben('s Myspace Friend) wrote:

You're missing the point. Though it's true that there is racism against white people, and that's dispicable, the point there gets muddied with the other issues that are brought about. And the crux of the matter is that black civil rights activists are campaigning to get equal rights in society, where as, on the whole "White Power" activists are simply racist in that they want to banish black people or treat them as second class citizens. You find me one activist who's looking to get 'equal rights' for white people - I highly doubt that you'd be able to. But I can find you thousands and thousands of activists who still see the discrimination that non-white people face every day and who are campaigning for equality. That's where the discrepancy lies. It's got nothing to do with "only white people being racist".

And, to be honest, blanket labelling black people ("you" in the text doesn't seem to be reffering to anyone other than non-white people in general) as the kind of people who "rob us, carjack us, and shoot at us" is blatant racism - and I don't care who you are, or who said it, it's racist as far as I'm concerned.

Arktic.
Posted: Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 12:20pm

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devilskater

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Ok, this topic is just getting out of hand...
The "competition" is over...!!!
Too bad that there are still lots of stupid people outside there, who just don't want to understand the concept, that discriminating people is bad. It has been in our history, and our history is there for us, to learn from the mistakes we have done.
There are just too many stupid, unknowledgable,pathetic people in this world...

cheers,
d.

PS: I am going to give Zeroo the 5 force points, since there arent any other participants. Congrats! And to bad, this whole thing didnt work out...

Last edited Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 6:21pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 12:46pm

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Fill

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Damn, I missed this topic. Too bad.

Only one thing for me to say.

Racism is a mix of jealousy and stereo types. It is only a very immature thing. Racism is comsidered very unhonorable and really when you think of it, everyone is a racist at something. It might not be a skin color but it could be something simple. Such as "I don't like people who are in that group", "Those people who like that football team are my enemies", "Why can I be like like them? There just stupid that's why THEY can get all the things that I like."

It's again just an immature belief. It is somewhat a religion.

The extreme is the KKK(Ku Klux Klan) that is a horrible clan of people who are racist against black people. It's a horrible thing to be a racist.

Also you can cause an affair between people if your a racist. Say your a racist and your friend finds out. His friend is black so he starts not 'hanging out' with him anymore since you don't like black people. It becomes a mess in itself.

Racism is evil. It's one of those things that's in everyones heart but most choose not to use it.

I'm black so this a very touchy subject.
Posted: Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 2:05pm

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Coureur de Bois

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swg33k wrote:


The extreme is the KKK(Ku Klux Klan) that is a horrible clan of people who are racist against black people. It's a horrible thing to be a racist.
Agreed that the KKK is a pathetically disgusting group of hateful individuals, but as Edward Norton put it in "American History X", these days they are only a bunch of unorganized rednecks. What I find much more frightening are Neo-Nazis. frown

Speaking of American History X, if anybody has not seen this film yet I strongly urge that you do. It is a powerful display of the mentality of racists and how it is possible for them to change their hateful ways.

Back to Devilskater's original proposition, here's mine!

Posted: Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 2:55pm

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Waser

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I have my own picture to contribute to this meaningful cause.

Posted: Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 3:15pm

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Atom

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Waser wrote:

I have my own picture to contribute to this meaningful cause.

We loves you Waser.
Posted: Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 3:24pm

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Xcession

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Do you even get the poster, Atom?
Posted: Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 4:49pm

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Zeolahn

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pooky wrote:

Oh yeah, having fun at someone else's loss is great fun!
UNdercover Brother, Hebrew Hammer, Kung Pow...

Yes, yes it is. I didn't get all uppity with the Hebrew Hammer because "Oh! It stereotypes us Jews! Gasp!" Hebrew Hammer is a masterpiece.

There is fun racism, where a black guy tells me to pick up that penny and I tell him to pick some cotton.

Then there is hate-fueled racism, which IS a problem.
Posted: Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 5:11pm

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Hybrid-Halo

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Zeolahn wrote:

There is fun racism, where a black guy tells me to pick up that penny and I tell him to pick some cotton.
I think you're misunderstanding what is inferred by the term "racism". Racial slur between friends is not an act of racism, if anything racism is a frame of mind. A disposition if you will.

There's no such thing as good rascism, infact... Racism is one of the 3 things I hate most. (The other two being Mexicans and Hypocrites).

-Hybrid.
Posted: Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 8:38pm

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Evman

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I love how we're all arguing about racism... weren't we all taught it was bad in like Kindergarten?
Posted: Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 8:42pm

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Frozenpede

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lisab8195 wrote:

You are right racism isn't cool. However, look back into the history of man; The Native Americans, Africans, Irish, and Indians. Each culture was supressed because another country thought they were better. Its a flaw in human society, but its always going to occur. The only antidote is to grow some thick skin and ignore it. Don't get me wrong, I think racism is evil, and i am not a racist.
well said lisab

Im so sick of hearing people whine about racism that I almost wanna lash out at people who come out and say "lets end racism together" of course thats the irrational part of me....the rational part of me says to explain myself, so hear goes.

First I guess you have to define racism, and I would define it as recognizing someones race and sometimes using that to draw conclusions nothing further, because at heart thats all it is....now you want to get into violence based on race...thats another matter. So racism as I defined it is always going to happen because what race you are indicates who your parents were and who their parents were and whether you want to admit it or not you inherit your culture from your parents and they from theirs and so forth.... now Ill let you in on a little secret....if you are black your ancestors were in Africa developing their own culture all on their own, if you are celtic your ancestors have a different culture. Now days those cultures interact more....sure but your culture is still closer to that of your ancestors since it has been passed down from generation to generation. A black church in Africa is not that different from a black church in America....if you ever wonder where "soul" comes from just take a trip to Africa....and the blacks in America have been seperated from there for 200 years!

Also, as Jesse Jackson and friends are so fond of reminding us, your heritage is your identity. Who wants to livein a world of clones? once your heritage is gone its never coming back. I say this because I know some people refer to the Flems as a racist group...but they sound more like they want to keep their identity then anything else to me.

but yeah to close this ramble, lisab is completely right, just live and let live dont go beserk on racism because it just causes people who wouldnt normally care to take sides. Good example, I was carpooling with a girl who didnt really have an opinion about blacks either way and we turned on the radio to hear some poll saying that 80% of black think that whites were trying to kill them off and that Hurricaine Katrina was some big plot against them. She got really pissed....and rightfully so I think.... you accuse people of being racist for long enough and your going to drive them more in that way.
Posted: Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 8:45pm

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Serpent

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Hybrid-Halo wrote:


There's no such thing as good rascism, infact... Racism is one of the 3 things I hate most. (The other two being Mexicans and Hypocrites).

-Hybrid.
+1 for the best comment in this thread.
Posted: Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 8:58pm

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Frozenpede

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kid hasnt heard of black history month or hispanic heritage month

and kid, I try to know as little about the rest of the world because people keep telling me that I need to know all about them and so forth and so on.....you know what.....foreigners dont know nearly as much about America as they think they do...and Im tired of people trying to guilt trip me for not knowing everything about theirs. Most foreigners dont realize the importance of states in our country, most foreigners no more about our federal government then tehy do about our actual country....big whoop thats like us only having to learn the name of the head of the EU and where it is centered...try learning about our states, thats more like what its like for us to learn about each of their countries. QUICK! whats the biggest lake in North Carolina? QUICK whats the tallest mountain? QUICK! WHO'S THE GOVERNOR!

see....you know as much about my homeland as I know about yours.
Posted: Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 9:11pm

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Xcession

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While your states may hold great significance to america, they don't to the rest of the world which is where your analogy falls apart.

A Country ought to hold the same significance to anyone who considers themselves worldly, regardless what country they themselves are from. The policies of a country affect the whole world. The policies of one subdivision of that country (whether you call it a 'state', a 'county', a 'district' or whatever) do not.

Latvia certainly is no less important to the world just because some american states are bigger than it. Your arguement would appear to be stating that we ought to know more about Utah just because the wealth of data about it is equal to, if not greater than the wealth of data about the entire country of Latvia.

To deliberately learn nothing of the important, bigger, humanity-affecting factors in life, just because you already have a surplus of smaller, friendly, more localised things, is the worst cop-out possible (not to mention a tragic mismanagement of your education).

You're completely entitled to that cop-out, of course, but by opting for it, you sacrifice your right to be taken seriously when people discuss those topics which you chose not to learn.

On another note, I'm sure i could find out anything i need to know about america from the internet. Thats kind of the whole point in it.

Seeing how i effectively know everything about america, it stands to reason that americans should effectively know everything about any other country - yet oddly they don't!

Other than that though, good arguement. Kid was fairly pwned for a while.

Last edited Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 10:13pm; edited 4 times in total.

Posted: Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 9:57pm

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Simon K Jones

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some article Ben found wrote:

If we had WET(white entertainment television) we'd be racists.

If we had a White Pride Day you would call us racists.

If we had white history month, we'd be racists

Frozenpede wrote:

kid hasnt heard of black history month or hispanic heritage month
This whole argument is completely nonsensical.

Your complaint is that minorities can have all these specific events, like Black History Month etc, but white people can't? Is that right? I can't help but think that I'm misreading you, but that seems to be what is being said.

The argument is completely misinformed and a flagrant misreading (either deliberately or subliminally due to inherent prejudices) of the situation.

The point, and the way society naturally works, is that the majority has the power. They have the cultural influence, the governmental influence, the economical influence. This isn't a bad thing, it's just the way it is. The majority doesn't need specific days and events to remind us of their existence and culture, because they are the primary culture. Everybody already knows about them, because they are all-pervasive.

Minorities, on the other hand, are minorities. Smaller. Lesser known. Often overlooked, simply because there are fewer. Again, not a bad thing, it's just rule of numbers and the way things work. Therefore you have events to celebrate those elements of society that otherwise don't get so much attention.

You must see the logic in that? How can it possibly be read as annoying or a negative thing?

Nobody is stopping 'white pride' days or 'white entertainment television' - because that's exactly what the mainstream is. Television is white entertainment television. The majority population is white, so most people working in television is white, so the resulting programmes end up being white-oriented. Again, not necessarily a bad thing, just the way it naturally works out.

Through awareness-raising events etc, you can bring in other cultures and make the majority culture more diverse, more interesting, more exciting and more advanced. Depending on population balance, the majority and minorities will shift over time. Some minorities will be sucked into the mainstream, just as subcultures (punk, grunge, goth etc) are all inevitably sucked in, despite their radical roots. It's called hegemony. Until that point, the minorities and subcultures make their presence felt by highlighting their differences.

Personally, I love cross-culture pollination, and I love being exposed to as many ideas and theories as possible. Doesn't mean I agree with them all - some cultures I find questionable, even despicable. But I still try to make an effort to learn about them when possible.

During Black History Month a couple of weeks ago (does that even make sense?) I went along to a fantastic local music event called 'Zimba' which featured various Cuban and Zimbabwean bands, and it was really quite phenomenal. Astounding dancing, great music and a superb atmosphere. Unlike anything I'd experienced before.

Now, you can moan all you like about all these minority-promoting events. But if it wasn't for Black History Month, I'd never have got a chance to see Zimba live. And for that, I'm extremely glad for it.

It's possible the the general "why should we learn about other countries?" attitude that seems to pervade a lot of people these days also extends to "why should we learn about other cultures?", even within your own country and state borders. You don't want to explore, you just want to stay with what you know and the status quo. If that's the case, then fair enough. But don't try and make out minorities to be somehow in the wrong for wanting to be heard.

p.s. Use of 'you' in that last paragraph is general and not specific to anybody in particular. smile
Posted: Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 9:59pm

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Atom

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I love my rainbow buddies, they keep my white colorful.
Posted: Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 10:18pm

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ben3308

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Tarn wrote:

Nobody is stopping 'white pride' days or 'white entertainment television' - because that's exactly what the mainstream is. Television is white entertainment television.
The problem is, that's not true. It is not something wholly white, made for whites. African History Month is made specifically and explicitly for blacks. Period. But whites can't have anything like that. While one could argue that certain things already like that are already mostly white, they're certainly not solely white. Mainstream TV isn't solely white. One month or day of the year isn't dedicated to solely whites. Maybe whites are the majority, so they celebrate them the most, but this doesn't change the fact that we still cannot have something SOLELY white.

Tarn wrote:

Now, you can moan all you like about all these minority-promoting events. But if it wasn't for Black History Month, I'd never have got a chance to see Zimba live. And for that, I'm extremely glad for it.
Do I have to say this again? I'm VERY glad that minorities hve their own days and things to spread their culture through- I like reading stuff about George Washington Carver and such every February- I just don't see why I can't have an event encompassing my people that others can take part in as well. I think the initial reason for minority-based holidays has gotten away from everybody and its less about awareness and more about pride and heritage. And if that's the case, if our culture- the mainstream- is now more diverse due to these holidays- then why can't one be created for whites to be proud and promote their heritage? I can learn all I want about Latinos or Africans during their heritage months, but why can't I learn about my own? That's just messed up.

Last edited Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 10:24pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 10:21pm

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Simon K Jones

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Congratulations on completely missing the point, Ben.

I don't know enough about your cultural/ethnic background to speak about your position, so I'll go for mine....

The reason we don't need specific days to highlight my culture (which I would vaguely describe as middle-class, financially secure, white, fairly middling-politics) is because it's all around us. Everywhere I go in England, it's my culture.

But more than that, there are an infinite amount of days/events/etc celebrating the history of my culture. There are national holidays etc that celebrate important events in English history. More than that, the media is populated with white culture and history coming out of its ears. If I want to learn about white, English history I can do so easily - it's practically jumping out at me. It's all around me. I don't need it highlighted because it's so incredibly, hugely, blindingly obvious.

If I want to learn about a minority culture, though, it is often harder to find information. Even more importantly, I might not even be aware of that culture's existence without it being highlighted - whereas I can hardly miss middle-class, white, English culture.

As for complaining that TV isn't 'wholly white' - well, that's not a problem at all. That just shows that the cultures are beginning to naturally mix. Go back 10 years, let alone 20 or 30 years, and you'll find TV was very, very different.

When the first Star Trek series was aired, there was a massive uproar when Kirk kissed Uhura. Nowadays black actresses can be seen in loads of shows. That's progress, folks. It's a Good Thing.

Last edited Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 10:32pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 10:28pm

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ben3308

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First off, I added stuff in an edit.

Second off, I didn't miss the point. I know that minorities have holidays to make themselves more known in society- primarily because the majority has overrun their culture- I just think that now that the mainstream has actually become more of a melting pot than before, it's now necessary to have some white awareness. Not of the race in general, as with some of the minority holidays, but with the heritage, mainly. That's what really gets me. I understand that we celebrate Black History Month to show awareness of African/African-American accomplishments. I don't want a holiday in the same respect, I just want my heritage to be more known. I get your point, maybe you're just not seeing mine.
Posted: Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 10:29pm

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Bryce007

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Weird, I thought a MOD said about 3 pages back that this topic would be locked. Guess not.

Also, Tarn, You DO know that the so called "minority" is now "the majority" in quite a few states now right? Its pretty wild.

And also, Why is this turning into a debate about what american should/do/dont know? I could swear this topic was about How being racist isn't good.
Posted: Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 10:31pm

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Coureur de Bois

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Ben, I'm embarrassed for you.
Posted: Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 10:32pm

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Nagual

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ben3308 wrote:

I just don't see why I can't have an event encompassing my people that others can take part in as well.
One thing you seem to be missing is, as a white American you don't have that much culture. Whites are from a diverse mix of cultures, in most countries over the centuries people have come and gone from diferent places that the history of the race is so watered down it can't really be called apon as race you can look back on the history of the country, yes, but not really the race. America especially even though it is a very young country, started its life with some many races and cultures it is quite unthinkable that you'd be able to seperate it all out correctly.
Posted: Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 10:33pm

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Xcession

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Erm, Ben - no one celebrates being white because to celebrate it would just be a) completely redundant and b) arrogant.

When much of society is based on a thin line between statistical oppression and plain 'minority', you don't go throwing a fecking jamboree just because you're the ruling class - thats plain insensitive. Its not inequality - its being a nice person!

Holy Flerking Schwit! Lets Celebrate being white and Alive?!?!?!omeoemogneomntf!lol.

Whats that? Its pointless? We take it for granted and rightly so because no one gives a crap about celebrating something a huge majority of us have already? Say again? - it would be seen as gloating and would be unpleasant to be on the receiving end regardless whether its about racism or how many Jolly Ranchers you've got ?! surely not! Welcome to the arguement.
Posted: Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 10:34pm

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Simon K Jones

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ben3308 wrote:

First off, I added stuff in an edit.
So did I, please re-read my post. razz

ben3308 wrote:

I don't want a holiday in the same respect, I just want my heritage to be more known. I get your point, maybe you're just not seeing mine.
I do see your point, I just don't agree with it. Of course, this could be a difference in American/English education and media systems. Maybe it's easier to find information on history and heritage and cultures etc in England, while it's incredibly hard to find out about white history in the US. I somehow doubt it, though.

Bryce007 wrote:

Weird, I thought a MOD said about 3 pages back that this topic would be locked. Guess not.
So far, it's still an interesting, generally calm and considered debate. Hopefully everyone will remain sensible.

Also, Tarn, You DO know that the so called "minority" is now "the majority" in quite a few states now right? Its pretty wild.
Yes, indeed. Hence in my post I was talking about shifting numbers of majority and minority etc. The same kind of thing is happening in cities in the UK. I think I covered that in my previous posts. My points aren't specific to any particular minority or majority - they apply generally.

And also, Why is this turning into a debate about what american should/do/dont know? I could swear this topic was about How being racist isn't good.
I don't think this is a debate about what Americans should do. It's a debate about what people can do generally. Doesn't matter where they're from...that's kinda the point.

Last edited Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 10:47pm; edited 2 times in total.

Posted: Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 10:43pm

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ben3308

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Tarn-
Here's the problem: I'm white. As a white, I'm in a race that is majority and has taken over media and oppressed other races voer the years....but I didn't do that. I could live the same, impoverished life and have the same bad things happen to me as a black friend, and I'll still be prejudiced against when I try to celebrate some part of my culture simply because I'm white. I know a black guy who is more popular, has more money, and generally a better life than me. But he gets something to celebrate and I don't because apparently I'm the ruling race, or I make more money, or I'm heard too much in the mainstream? This "mainstream" idea just isn't true or applicable in these situations.

Xcession-
I don't want a "fecking jamboree" because I'm the ruling class (which I'm not) but why am I prejudice against for wanting one when other races could have a jamboree in an instant and no one would think anything of it?

I guess being in England or other countries must be really different. Or maybe it's because I'm a minority white in a primarily-latino Texas who is condemned for wanting something to remind me of my predecessors.

I've talked to Pooky about race before, and, apparently places like Canada are COMPLETELY different race and politically-correct-wise. I guess it just matters who you are in society and where you live.
Posted: Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 10:47pm

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Xcession

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Whats that you say, Hans? You're a german nationalist and want to celebrate it? Of course its good to celebrate your country. Whats that? something about nazis? But that was years ago right and waaaay before you were born? How could the jews possibly take offense!
Posted: Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 10:48pm

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Arktic

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and I'll still be prejudiced against when I try to celebrate some part of my culture simply because I'm white
Yes, that's why Christmas, the 4th of July and Thanksgiving are now banned.
Posted: Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 10:59pm

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Coureur de Bois

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Ben, it is ridiculous to say that you're proud to be white. People with a "white" skin complexion share no common culture to celebrate, your argument is ludicrous! White people happen to come from an enormous spectrum of ethnic backgrounds. There is absolutely no reason for one to celebrate being white as if "white" could be considered one's ancestral heritage. On the other hand, celebrations of a group's TRUE ethnic background are common and completely legitimate. For example I happened to attend a Slovakian pride festival this summer, because half of my ancestors originated from Slovakia and I am planning on attending Ockoberfest later this month to celebrate my German heritage.

"White" is not an ethnicity, it is a skin color.
Posted: Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 11:07pm

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Kid

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Arktic wrote:

and I'll still be prejudiced against when I try to celebrate some part of my culture simply because I'm white
Yes, that's why Christmas, the 4th of July and Thanksgiving are now banned.
Precisly. Unfortunatly I've not been able to respond to Ben's ramblings since the forum keeps loggin me out but this is what I was going to go on to say. All white holidays and yet people take them for granted and assume they apply to everyone.
Posted: Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 11:11pm

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Klausky

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In the town I live in 96% of students are white middle classed kids. We have 0 black teachers and about 3 black students in my high school. I have no experiences of true racism because there is no opportunity for it to occur. In a sense my scholastic community is sheltered from the evils of racism, but the down side of that is we are not prepared for the real world.
Posted: Mon, 17th Oct 2005, 11:35pm

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I live in utah, which is known as one of the more ignorant of the united states of america, and it's true. People here who aren't racist are racist. Like the other day I was at work (cleaning plates as usual) and this black woman came in to look at china, and she spoke in slight ebonics, but nothing so much that you couldn't communicate with her ( I talked to her for a moment about working in a china shop and how lame it is) and then right after she left, my boss went off about how she couldn't understand a word out of the woman's mouth, and then went off about how you can't trust black pepople when selling china. and this woman considers herself a liberal. Not to mention all the racist bull that goes on around here from conservatives as well. It's enough to drive a sensible person INSANE.

PS to the people who -1ed my poster
Did you not get it, or are you actually homophobes who understood I hate you?
Posted: Tue, 18th Oct 2005, 12:07am

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averagejoe

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Being one of the mods on the forum of course I ran to the post called "Against Racism." Surprisingly everyone appears to be behaving themselves.

After reading this thread I found myself wondering about the other yanks posts. Mainly concerning the issues of freedom of speech in regards to racism. This is a fundimental problem with my fellow american's world view. Most everyone right-wing, left-wing, or moderate perpetuate the idea of freedom of speech in the wrong way. There is a difference between expression and in "doing as one likes." Most Americans think that is what their civil rights are. The ability to act or be in any way they like. This is a fundmental problem that has crept in our whole structure. In recent events part of the problems that insued post hurricane Katrina was due to civilians and officials doing as they liked. This problem was not started with the levies breaking it started with currption and apathy on local, state, and federal levels. Each group was doing as they liked and not working together to prevent a problem and contribute to the greater good.

Civil rights,and liberties are to make society more fair not to allow everyone to do what they like for thier like's sake. Hence we have pushed our cultural development backwards instead of forward. Civil rights should be used to facilitate the good of the whole and not soully the good of the individual. Therefore I would argue that spouting off one's racist opinions is not at all "protected" under our "civil rights." It does not benefit the whole it feeds the one's desire to feel superior and strong. You get a few hundred or a few thousand individuals feeding this need and you get Rowanda, Nazis, the KKK, PLO, IRA, Colonial >insert contry name here<... just think of all the bad things that have happened in the history of the human family and I would argue that is the root cause. "Doing as one likes."

Even though I would like to take credit for that catch phrase I cant. It was written over a hundred years ago. How many of my fellow yanks even know where that came from? Eventually you will be forced to read it in school or at Uni "Culture and Anarchy" Matthew Arnold. Granted I may not entirely agree with all of his platforms in that comentary of Victorian UK but the concepts he puts forth I think fit in this situation pretty well. Most of us Yanks are the very thing 19th century thinkers worried about. We are the philistines we are the ones with false culture, we are "Mass Men." We know more about the moles on some young hot tarts arse tatoos than about the state of our own country. And we walk around consuming it because it is what we like to do. I am telling you this mentality is what makes us look stupid to the rest of the world. Regardless of which side of the fence you profess to be on we are all guilty of this.

confused Erm not just the mole thing I mean being cattle and herding about...
Very well then, carry on.
Posted: Tue, 18th Oct 2005, 1:08am

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Klausky

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That was excellent and inciteful. Now, a rasict comment is protected by the first amendment. Obviously our founding fathers had no intention for such a cruel thing to be protected, and people are just manipulating their rights. My point in the earlier posts after Arktic said he was going to murder my family smile was that murder is a crime and is punishable by law, while racist comments fall under the first amendment. So comparing murder, a crime, to a racial slur, an opinion, the two are very different. People do not go to jail for making fun of another race.

You are also completely correct about people using their human rights to benefit them and only them. With power comes corruption. This theme appears throughout history. People want self-gain over helping others. Is it our society and culture that does this to man? Or, is man just born corrupt?
Posted: Tue, 18th Oct 2005, 1:47am

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ben3308

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Arktic wrote:

and I'll still be prejudiced against when I try to celebrate some part of my culture simply because I'm white
Yes, that's why Christmas, the 4th of July and Thanksgiving are now banned.
Christmas isn't a racial-oriented holiday. In fact, Biblical information resides in the Middle East, a place where people of dark complexion live. 4th of July, and Thanksgiving are holidays to celebrate nationality, not pride of race.

Your analogy is absurd.

I don't see why people are taking such offense to what I'm trying to say here. I just don't like how only caucasians are prejudiced against for things that other cultures already have. For instance, on my school district's standardized tests, the ethnicity tab options read:
"-African American
-Latino AMerican
-Southern Islander
-Asian American
-Inuit American
-White"

And every time I try to say that something like that is wrong people call me a racist.

Tht's just wrong, in my opinion, I'm sorry nobody seems to agree. I'm not saying I want white supremacy or white pride, I'd just like to be able to opt for it without being slandered by my peers.
Posted: Tue, 18th Oct 2005, 1:50am

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averagejoe

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I do not think humans are by default currupt. When we are born we only understand a few things namely sleep, eat, breath, poop -rinse, repeat. Those funtions happen on thier own it is part of our survival protocols built into our chemical makeup. I really think that the curruption comes from how we develop over time. We are "programed" if you will as we go. Early on alot of the bad parts of humanity are enstilled in us and we don't even know it.

Case in point. My daughter is 5 years old just started school, she was very excited when she made a brown friend. My daughter has never been exposed to the ideas of black and white as far as race goes. Therefore she labed the girl in her own purely descriptive way. To my daughter her perception is very innocent and pure. However over time without my help she will hear and learn the lables the world has put on people. She is currupted by the world not by her own design. Otherwise she would have described her fellow classmate as a black girl.

On the other side of the issue. Last summer my daughter was playing with another "brown friend" on the playground. Another kid told her she should not be playing with those blacks. My daughter was throughly confused and explained she did not have any crayons. The child that used the lable black has obviously been programed at his house that brown people are not people they are blacks. This gets back to my original point. The individuals in charge of that childs development see people of African desent as those blacks. That lable in itself is ladden with social stereo types negative and positive. My daughter on the other hand sees them as people who happen to be more brown that she is.

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Posted: Tue, 18th Oct 2005, 1:57am

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averagejoe

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ben3308,

What would you propose that we whites celebrate?

I am not trying to poke fun I just would like to know what we should commemorate.

What group do I identify with? My last name is Joyce, therefore my heritage is partially Irish. Then again 100 years back I have a Cherokee Great Grandmother. Truthfully here in he States we have no single culture to associate with. Especially when you are from a line of colonists that have been her melting with others since the early 18th century.

BTW my lastname is actually not originally Irish either. The Joyces/Joices came from France over half a mellinia ago. Does that mean I should identify with my French heritage?

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Posted: Tue, 18th Oct 2005, 2:03am

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Klausky

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Fourth of July is basically commemorating the white colonists gaining independence. Now it has developed into a holiday in which ALL americans celebrate their freedoms.
Posted: Tue, 18th Oct 2005, 2:12am

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averagejoe

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Right, I understand that but what I was trying to get from Ben is what exactly would we "whites" celebrate or point out as our own on White History month?

The idea of white really does not have the cultural destictness that other groups maintain. Me for example, I am part Irish and Welsh, my Dad's the Joyce and my Mom's the Bartlett. There is no distictness. Should I celebrate the fact that the Bartletts were "torries"/loyalist during the American Revolution or should I celebrate the Joyces that bled on the field for Independence? The answer is the only thing I can celebrate... America. It is the only cultural distintness that could remotely be classified as mine. I am not from Ireland, I am not from France, I am not Cherokee. Is my point coming across? Black history month/awareness was created to highlight the transplanted Africans that were forgotten in earlier versions of American history taught in schools. Granted now it is more even handed than before but still there is a distictness that we whites really can't claim.

Or am I way off here? Really Ben I am curious as to what it is we should look to and say yeah that is white let's celebrate it. I beleive I have uncovered the paradox of being a white American twisted

And if Black history is really part of American History should we whites not find pride in the accomplishements of that group too?

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Posted: Tue, 18th Oct 2005, 2:55am

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Frozenpede

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Wow, this is going to be a long post because I have to respond both to Tarn and to Xcession.

Tarn first because I dont have as much to say. You're statement makes a lot of sense....however if you lived in the U.S. it would fall flat because here in America we are bombarded daily with the poor minorities and how hard it is to be a minority, so much so that in fact their cultures dominate over the majority. I cant turn on the T.V. anymore without seeing my favorite show now dubbed over in Spanish so that while Mexicans can understand it....I cant. I have to wonder if I would find that kind of accomidation in a latino nation. Rap is everywhere, the style of dressing, speaking and even walking have become more common then even the black race itself. Every if I wanted to I could turn on to a show about black hero's and black scientists and black blah blah blah. THEN there is months that they give them, its not like these are isolated periods in the year.....its just one more nausiating reminder of the minorities that are constantly down our throats anyway. Heck dont ever try to fire a black dude cuz youll never hear the end of how you are just a racist bigot and blah blah blah (now I realize thats generalizing but its common enough that you can)


Now for Xcession: I knew that someone would compare states to provinces or counties and now I would like to thank you for kindly proving my point smile yall dont know as much about the U.S as you like to think you do.

England is divided into counties, the U.S is made up of states. Off the top of my head I can think of 3 states that use to be Republics all on their own. Florida won its independence from Spain while the U.S was at war with England in the war of 1812, the Republic of Florida's flag was the bonnie blue. When the Texans rebelled against Mexico they took the star from the bonnie blue as a sign of deviance...thus the lone star state. The third republic was California which won its independence from Mexico before the Mexican-American War. I say all this to prove a point each state had to join the union, in fact there is a set of guidelines to joining....not a set of guidelines for creating a state the way a county is created. This is why we are called the United States of America. States is what we are, united is what we did, and America is where we are. The Union isnt all that different from the European Union. The real difference is that over time rights came away from the states and we taken up by the federal government, however most power still lies in the states, the feds really only run the millitary, and even then each state has a national guard.
As far as size goes, my world does not involve California, Ive never been to New York. My identity lies in North Carolina the same way a French mans identity lies in France. Why should I be required to know all about the Eifle tower and the Arc de Triumphe when they dont know about the Cape Hatteras Lighthouse or Blowing Rock. To say that you know my country because you can name some building a thousand miles away from me is like me saying that I know London because I can tell you about the Alps. New York and North Carolina also have very different histories, very different origins and if you look at a list of wars that New York was in you will find some that North Carolina wasnt....and even some where North Carolina fought against them.
However, ignoring the fact that foreigners like to think they know America because they can list some monument in some state a thousand miles away.....lets see if you know as much as an Elementary student in America is required to know about America:

1.) What is the name of the 16th president of the U.S.
2.) Who were the Souix?
3.) What river did George Washington cross into New Jersey?
4.) What was the first state to secede from the union?
5.) what year was the Declaration of Independence signed?
6.) what was the last state to join the union?
7.) what year did the Civil War start?
8.) what were the original 13 colonies?

those are just some of the basic questions that you would have to know to pass the 3rd grade and they are pretty well known......but I wouldnt be surprised if some people didnt get them.

Im just tired of being told that everyone else is forced to learn about us and how we are too arrogant to learn about them, and they think they know so much about us because they can tell me where the Empire State Building is......thank you but its as foreign to me as Big Ben is.

Finally here is one more question. Since even Latvia is important just because its a "country" then

1.)what is the name of the President of Cameroon?
2.)who led the rebels in Central African Republic
3.) what do most Pan-Africans think of French involvement in their countries and why?
Posted: Tue, 18th Oct 2005, 3:05am

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Frozenpede

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Waser wrote:

I live in utah, which is known as one of the more ignorant of the united states of america, and it's true. People here who aren't racist are racist. Like the other day I was at work (cleaning plates as usual) and this black woman came in to look at china, and she spoke in slight ebonics, but nothing so much that you couldn't communicate with her ( I talked to her for a moment about working in a china shop and how lame it is) and then right after she left, my boss went off about how she couldn't understand a word out of the woman's mouth, and then went off about how you can't trust black pepople when selling china. and this woman considers herself a liberal. Not to mention all the racist bull that goes on around here from conservatives as well. It's enough to drive a sensible person INSANE.

PS to the people who -1ed my poster
Did you not get it, or are you actually homophobes who understood I hate you?
haha Waser, I didnt -1 your poster but come on man. You coulda made that exact same poster and said "unless your a conservative...and you all know how we feel about you" because that would be more on the mark. What are the terms yall have coined? Redneck, hick, bigot, homophobe, caveman? haha they only difference is that people dont jump down your throat when you do.... maybe because we are bigger then that....but it happens everyday. As a conservative I say go ahead, call me a homophobe, I'm not insulted, and you have the right to. However if you want to maintain credibility then you cant get mad if I want to use the word gay in any context I want, or if I want to call them some name I dream up.


for those who read this, Waser and I have known we are on different sides for a long time...and I dont think this is going to end our friendship in anyway.
Posted: Tue, 18th Oct 2005, 3:10am

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Serpent

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Races are usually pretty specific if thought about more thouroughly. So, Black Americans were enslaved until the beginning of last century really. Until then, African Americans had nothing like that to celebrate. White people never had to move out of slavery or anything, because if they wee slaves, it was usually to other whites. The only way we could celebrate our race is by making up a holiday, "white pride day" or something. I think this is pointless because white is the most general description of race yu can make. There are so many different whites you would be celebrating for the freedom of every friecking country. No need for it I say. We as a race (general term obviously) have never suffered specifically. Anyways, I hope I expressed my thoughts correctly through my keyboard, hopefully my point gets accross,
Posted: Tue, 18th Oct 2005, 3:25am

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ben3308

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I dunno what holiday we would have, seeing- as averagejoe said- we are such a diverse race, in all generality, but I just would like not to be harassed for wanting a holiday or something like that. I can guarantee you that not all black people in my school are form Africa, but I know they all associate themselves with being African-American and taking part in African-American activities. So I guess here's yet another paradox of being a white American: to truly celebrate some part of our culture of "whitism" if you will, we would have to generalize all caucasians from different descents into one big group of whites, which would inevitably cause us to lose grasp of what we originally wanted to do- make our culture known.

Essentially, if such a holiday were implemented, I would be as blunt as to say it should probably be dubbed "White Pride Day". That way those (of light complexion, primarily, of course) who can't fit into one generalized group such as Latinos, Hispanics, or Africans, can have their own group to fit into.

I dunno, I guess, in retrospect, the suggestion of a white holiday wasn't the best idea seeing as it could never work; I'd just like for people not to cast sideways glances at me for even proposing it. Ultimately, I'd like not to be deemed a racist for asking for something which other races already have.
Posted: Tue, 18th Oct 2005, 5:26am

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The Artur

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I see people not as a skin color but as a person ( people, are people? ok maybe it doesnt make much sence right now , but lets try and see where i'm going. ) I dont make friends based on what color their skin is or what religion they are, or other beliefs. I think that we are all the same on the inside basically. We all feel emotions, like love, hate, etc. And we all behave in different ways. The friends I have come from very different backgrounds, and we all like each other, not because each other skin colors, but the way we behave. I dunno , if you guys get what im saying or if this is even worded properly, but i hope you get the picture, and i think i should just stop now, because i just make things confusing.
Posted: Tue, 18th Oct 2005, 6:04am

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Waser

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I completely agree with everything you just said.

Artur L wrote:


Except gay marriages sad - which i'm total against. ( But there i go again being prejudice, ( not like i ever was before though ( i wasnt racist ) ) )
Posted: Tue, 18th Oct 2005, 7:20am

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Bryce007

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Frozenpede echo's my sentiments. You'll have to excuse ben...He's out of his mind, But he'll be right back. (Benji, you shoulda known posting something like that would set off anybody but conservatives, of which there are maybe 3 on fxhome..)
Posted: Tue, 18th Oct 2005, 8:35am

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Arktic

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Christmas isn't a racial-oriented holiday
I expect my Muslim, Hindu, Jewish and Sikh friends might well disagree with you there.

And anyway, isn't it a bit of a playground mentality to go "well, the black fellows get a holiday - I want one too!"? What difference does it make? If you start trying to match an eye for an eye, you'll start trying to 'one-up' other races, and that'll just lead to tension...
Posted: Tue, 18th Oct 2005, 8:39am

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Nagual

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ben3308 wrote:

... Ultimately, I'd like not to be deemed a racist for asking for something which other races already have.
First off, I'll say I am glab your focus is on making this equal, afterall isn't that what equal rights are about? However, there is a fundemental flaw with that idea, inorder to enforce equal rights, it is generaly perceived that other races or cultures or groups of people have something or don't have something. It is in our human nature to put things, people or whatever into catagories, give them labels as it were. In this thread we are all guilty to some degree of that, we blatently use the terms blacks, whites or even 'them' and 'us'. Until we as a whole and complete people put aside the terms that are used to seperate us, we are all at some level causing racism. I don't mean we hate other races or cultures, many of us have mixed families ( myself included, I have a beautiful niece who is hopefully going to be a model. She is of mixed race.)

As you see I am guilty of it too, although I generaly try to avoid mentioning reference to colour or culture unless I have to. To avoid all elements of racism is a fundementally hard thing to do. It is harder in some areas of the world that others, that is true. It is, however, possible for us to change the way we look at the world, and therefore how we perceive each other. My advice is start within yourself, let go of the desire to have your own culture day, enjoy who you are, for your own reasons, not the reasons you may get taught. Let go of the apparent jealousy of others having 'their' day, does it really affect your life so much that either they have or you haven't a special day? Probably not.
Posted: Tue, 18th Oct 2005, 8:54am

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Hendo

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Arktic wrote:

ben3308 wrote:

Christmas isn't a racial-oriented holiday
I expect my Muslim, Hindu, Jewish and Sikh friends might well disagree with you there.
Those are religions, not races. smile

Ben's correct in his above statement; Christmas & Easter are not racially-focused holidays. For instance, many people of Chinese origin who are also Christians will celebrate Christmas in a religious sense. Likewise, people of varying racial origin with no religious belief will also celebrate Christmas in a cultural / historical-traditional / secular sense.
Posted: Tue, 18th Oct 2005, 9:16am

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jotoki

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Arktic "I expect my Muslim, Hindu, Jewish and Sikh friends might well disagree with you there"

I think you'll find you proved Bens point for him there, those are religions not races. Christmas is a religious holiday. If you're gonna argue a point at least get it right.

It's sad to see so few on here with balanced thought out views on this. Yes racism is bad but thats doesn't make Ben out of his mind, some of the stuff he said is also true and itself perpetuates racism. Some of what Arktic has said is also correct and others too but until any of you can understand both sides point of view the problem will continue to exist. We've seen a form of racisim on here just by using the term "Conservatives" in a negative manner. So those of you that believe you're above descrimination think again. Now yes conservatism is an idiology not a race but the the point is the same, you are still discriminating against someone because they are different to you Incidentally Black people, hispanics, Asians, Orientals and caucasians
all come from many different countries and cultures, thats not something exclusive to caucasians as seems to have been implied earlier on here also. I myself experienced racism and yes, I'm white and yes that does happen, one or two on here need to wake up to that. Funny though it didn't happen in My home country the UK but in good ol' US of A. Chicago to be precise. My uncle, now sadly dead was an African America (cant say black, dont want to be branded a conservative) when he took me into the neighbourhood that he grew up in to visit his mother I was stared at. Now ive been stared at because of my skin colour in parts of africa and Asia but always with wonder or interest. Int the USA i'm stared at with clear views not of interest or wonder but of hate. So guess what, Ben was bang on with what he said, this needs to be addressed from all sides, it's not just whites that are racist. It exists in all races and until those against racism take that on board the problem will never be solved.

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Posted: Tue, 18th Oct 2005, 9:28am

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Xcession

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Frozenpede:

No one was complaining that you can't name all the repealed bylaws of Norwich City from 1100-1400. In fact no one gives a monkeys that you can't name all the UK cathedral cities, or that you don't know when the Eiffel Tower was built. I equally don't give a crap about your civil wars, the original 13 colonies, Paul Biya or François Bozizé etc. This isn't the point.

Sure it would be nice to know those facts, but not knowing them is excusable.

The issue much of the rest of the world has with Americas apparent lack of interest, is that when debates ensue about things bigger (i say again bigger) than largely irrelevant, localised facts and figures like those you mentionned - things like foreign policy, things like the role of the UN, things like the occupation of holy land: Americans often display a baffling lack of understanding of how the world works, who the major players are, what the key issues are.

Kid didn't explain this particularly well, so is partially responsible for the confusion of this discussion.

I'm not saying you (the collective you, not you personally) should know the tidal chart for Southampton, or that you're wrong for knowing about the Lakota or any other native american tribes....what i am saying is that to know nothing of the important issues in the world other than your own country's, is mind-bogglingly insular, at best. To argue in favour of being insular would be, well, just ridiculous - we must be able to agree on this, surely?

Perhaps i've got it completely wrong. Perhaps Americans do, largely, understand all these global issues. If thats the case, then the apathy shown - which gets misread as lack of understanding - is no better than not understanding at all. Those guilty of this, need to gain some perspective.

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Posted: Tue, 18th Oct 2005, 9:55am

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Simon K Jones

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Frozenpede wrote:

Tarn first because I dont have as much to say. You're statement makes a lot of sense....however if you lived in the U.S. it would fall flat because here in America we are bombarded daily with the poor minorities and how hard it is to be a minority, so much so that in fact their cultures dominate over the majority. I cant turn on the T.V. anymore without seeing my favorite show now dubbed over in Spanish so that while Mexicans can understand it....I cant. I have to wonder if I would find that kind of accomidation in a latino nation.
Of course not. But isn't the whole point of the USA to be a shining beacon on the hill, that anybody can go to with absolutely nothing and have a chance to become somebody of worth? So if Spanish-speaking people have found a home in the US, surely that's a good thing?

Having a multicultured TV schedule is something I consider worth celebrating, not complaining about.

Sure, I can see how elements could be an annoyance. There are genuine concerns when it comes to a changing populace that can cause problems and tension. But you seem to regard 'minorities' almost as a dirty word, without even attempting to view them as simply other people.

its just one more nausiating reminder of the minorities that are constantly down our throats anyway.
The angry tone there I think clearly presents that you aren't prepared to consider alternative perspectives, so I think I'll consider this particular angle of discussion closed.

Heck dont ever try to fire a black dude cuz youll never hear the end of how you are just a racist bigot and blah blah blah
That's a completely different argument. Very cunning the way you slyly failed to mention all the 'black dudes' that get fired due to their bosses being racist, by the way. Excellent use of propaganda, there!

As far as size goes, my world does not involve California, Ive never been to New York. My identity lies in North Carolina the same way a French mans identity lies in France. Why should I be required to know all about the Eifle tower and the Arc de Triumphe when they dont know about the Cape Hatteras Lighthouse or Blowing Rock.
The important difference is that we're interested, though. The information you put in your post regarding the United States I found highly interesting - some of it I knew already, some I didn't. Either way, I appreciate the extra knowledge. Whereas in your previous posts you seem to have espoused a desperate desire to actively avoid extra knowledge of foreign countries, which perplexes me.

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Posted: Tue, 18th Oct 2005, 10:01am

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Joshua Davies

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Heck dont ever try to fire a black dude cuz youll never hear the end of how you are just a racist bigot and blah blah blah
WHAT!? Do people actually think like this?! That statement alone makes me want to lock this but Xcession and Tarn are on fire so I think I'll leave and not return.
Posted: Tue, 18th Oct 2005, 10:35am

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Xcession

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Excellent use of propaganda, there!
Excellent but also quite telling and rather worrying.
Posted: Tue, 18th Oct 2005, 10:54am

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jotoki

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the comment about firing a black dude, while a gross generalisation does just show how racism can be perpetuated it'sself by the race claiming oppression. Like it or not there are some...and I said SOME, that do use the race card in this way. Whats worrying to me is how this problem is just disregarded by some as if it doesn't exist. Yes sure there are those bosses that fire due to racism but equally there are those that will use their race to claim no existant discrimination in the hope of making easy money in compensation claims. Thats just the sort of thing that leads to the mistrust between comunities and races. Sure the majority have a responsability to help stamp out racism and I agree totally. What we have to remember though is the minorities have an obligation themselves not to perpetuate feelings of hatered for their own ends.

Incidentally and a bit off topic, the US is being held up as a nation of free speech. You guys saying that go check this out. You're not as free as you think.

http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/78682/printers-leak-privacy-info-onto-pages.html

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Posted: Tue, 18th Oct 2005, 10:59am

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Simon K Jones

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jotoki wrote:

the comment about firing a black dude, while a gross generalisation does just show how racism can be perpetuated it'sself by the race claiming oppression. Like it or not there are some...and I said SOME, that do use the race card in this way. Whats worrying to me is how this problem is just disregarded by some as if it doesn't exist. Yes sure there are those bosses that fire due to racism but equally there are those that will use their race to claim no existant discrimination in the hope of making easy money in compensation claims.
Indeed, valid points.

However, the vital difference is that nobody makes out all white bosses to be racist idiots that hire and fire based purely on skin colour. Because that is blatantly an absurd claim.

Do people generalise and make out that all black people use the race card when they get fired? Why, yes, I believe Frozenpede just did, a few posts back.

That's the crucial difference that I see here - selecting information to subtly shift an arugment, so that generally misinformed people will draw innaccurate conclusions.

Do some black people unfairly play the race card when they get fired? Yes. Do some white bosses fire people simply because of skin colour? Yes. However, if you just read Frozenpede's comments, you'd think that all black people are guilty of it, while all the white bosses are saints. And it's that kind of attitude that perpetuates race relation problems.
Posted: Tue, 18th Oct 2005, 11:02am

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Pooky

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Frozenpede wrote:

1.) What is the name of the 16th president of the U.S.
2.) Who were the Souix?
3.) What river did George Washington cross into New Jersey?
4.) What was the first state to secede from the union?
5.) what year was the Declaration of Independence signed?
6.) what was the last state to join the union?
7.) what year did the Civil War start?
8.) what were the original 13 colonies?
1)Name the 9 canadian provinces
2)Who was the first president of Canada and where did he come from?
3)What different countries have had colonies in Canada?
4)Where did the French fight their losing battle?
5)What river did Champlain explore for the first time in the 17th century?
6)When did Canada become an independent country?

Don't know? Well then why should I learn about the US then?

... you're describing a paradox, and someone has to break it.
Posted: Tue, 18th Oct 2005, 11:04am

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Simon K Jones

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pooky wrote:

Don't know? Well then why should I learn about the US then?
Because knowledge is power. And it's also rather interesting, most of the time. I simply don't understand why people would actively want to avoid learning stuff. Bizarre.
Posted: Tue, 18th Oct 2005, 11:07am

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Pooky

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That was sarcasm smile Read the line underneath
Posted: Tue, 18th Oct 2005, 11:17am

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jotoki

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I did kind of point out it was a gross generalisation Tarn. But reaction to one persons comments with a totally reverse arguement is equally inaccurate. Yes I agree his comments were over the top, I just think it's better to make a balanced reply rather than disregarding the underlying problem thats led to him feeling that way he does. resentment can be created in many ways. A good example recently was a council offices I read about sadly I cant remember where, somewhere in the UK. It's gonna sound trivial but it;s just an example of how Frozenpedes attitudes can be formed in others. Basically as some kind of well done gift the managers in the offices gave everyone a squeezy pig, kind of a worry ball in the shape of a pig to every member of staff. Now one muslim person took offence. I dont pretend to know everything about the religion but it seems it's some kind of symbol. Now thats fine I can understand how it might cause offence so perhaps giving this person something different instead would have been the correct response ? I would have thought so, but no, what they did instead was ban all images of pigs from everyones desks anywhere in the building, and this person was the one single muslim in the building and the only one that complained. So is it any wonder that some people in the majority start to feel resentful when things like this happen ?

In the end you need to understand the reasons for resentment such as this before you can fix the underlying problems that cause it, just arguing against it won't fix it, it will rather deepen it thorugh the furstration of perceived lack of understanding.

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Posted: Tue, 18th Oct 2005, 11:22am

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Simon K Jones

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Heh, that is indeed an absurd story, Jotoki. Stuff like that is intensely irritating, although I'd say it highlights the ridiculous nature of bureaucracy and, in particular, local politics, rather than any particular race/religion issue. It's along the same lines as sports day being banned in schools, because the kids might get upset if they lose.

As any sensible person will agree, they should simply have said "oh, sorry about the pig, won't happen again." To then overreact as they did is utterly absurd. I wonder if the Muslim person insisted on all pigs being banned from the office (heh), or whether the managers just got in a total panic and overreacted all by themselves?

Makes me glad that I work in a relatively small company that doesn't really indulge in absurd office politics.
Posted: Tue, 18th Oct 2005, 11:33am

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jotoki

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Yeah I wasnt putting it across as a race or religion issue. I was just saying that sort of thing is how they start. It's a sad symptom of the crazy levels of political correctness in the UK right now that make managers petrified of being sued so they do things like this. As far as I know it wasnt the employee that asked for this level of response just stupid management. And the sports day thing...dont get me started lol
Posted: Tue, 18th Oct 2005, 1:25pm

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Xcession

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[Childish post by Ben3308 delete]

Unless i missed something, Ben, this was actually quite a decent discussion. We may have disagreed on many points but it was still worth a proper reply.

If, therefore, you can't post a decent reply which dignifies everyone else's well thought-out posts, you can't post at all.

I'd also like to offer you the opportunity of rebuttal too, since if i left your post as it was, it would be you who looked the more foolish for it. You appear to have some clue of what you're talking about, so its a shame to cave in by writing something which - whilst appearing to elevate you - only admits to ignorance.
Posted: Tue, 18th Oct 2005, 1:38pm

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ben3308

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Just trying to supply a bit of comic relief in what seemed hostile at the moment, sorry if that erked you, Xcession. Won't be posting like that again.
Posted: Tue, 18th Oct 2005, 1:42pm

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Xcession

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Fair enough, but since you're the only person who could have caused any hostility towards yourself, you're the last person your aggressors will appreciate making jokes about a discussion they've been putting a lot of effort into.

I'd have though its just common courtesey to reply in a mature and appropriate manner. Apparently i was wrong.

Anyway....getting back on track, did you have a better post to continue your side of the discussion with?

[edited to fix typo which jotoki understood to imply baseless blame for hostility]
Posted: Tue, 18th Oct 2005, 2:55pm

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jotoki

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now it makes more sense
Posted: Tue, 18th Oct 2005, 3:35pm

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Steeb

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Frozenpede wrote:

I cant turn on the T.V. anymore without seeing my favorite show now dubbed over in Spanish so that while Mexicans can understand it....I cant. I have to wonder if I would find that kind of accomidation in a latino nation.
I find this statement dubious at best. I live in Vegas and I dare say we have a larger Hispanic population than North Carolina. At most, we have four Spanish-Language channels (Including HBO Latino.) That's out of around 300 channels. I can't think of a single TV show that you would be watching that would have suddenly switched to Spanish. You may have seen some of the more popular shows (like Friends, Simpsons, Seinfeld, etc.) dubbed in Spanish and shown on a Spanish-Language channel, but so what? How is that stopping you from watching the same program in English?
Posted: Tue, 18th Oct 2005, 5:23pm

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Arktic

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Someone in regards to my comment about Christmas wrote:

Those are religions, not races.
I'd beg to differ; racism isn't just about the colour of someone's skin, and to think so, is, in my opinion, quite naive - last year I lived next door to a flat of all Jewish guys, and I spent quite a lot of time discussing things like this with them, as I'd never really made an effort to learn about Judaism before then.

Anyway, to quote one of the guys, "For me, and for a lot of my friends, being Jewish is a lot less to do with the religion and more of a 'race thing'". Yes, it's true that Judaism is a religion, but how do we define 'race'? Surely it is nothing more than a group of people with a collective culture and history?

So I spoke to another close Jewish mate today, about the exact same thing, and he said much the same - it's a personal decision, but for a lot of Jewish people, they view themselves as a culturally different race from, say, a 'purely' British person.

Arktic.
Posted: Tue, 18th Oct 2005, 5:41pm

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Hybrid-Halo

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Arktic wrote:

I'd beg to differ; racism isn't just about the colour of someone's skin, and to think so, is, in my opinion, quite naive - last year I lived next door to a flat of all Jewish guys, and I spent quite a lot of time discussing things like this with them, as I'd never really made an effort to learn about Judaism before then.
I wholeheartedly agree, a Race is not defined purely by the colour of your skin. It can simply be your nationality. If I am correct then many jews see themselves as a nationality as much as they do a religion.

-Hybrid.
Posted: Tue, 18th Oct 2005, 7:01pm

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Frozenpede

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Im not surprised that people are shocked that I would say that blacks play that card because while I was over seas thats all I heard from the Canadians based over there "whites are against blacks in America......racism is out of control..." and I can only guess where this point of view comes from, maybe it is the programs that I mentioned that we are constantly bombarded with....I have no idea. At any rate Ill have to give some examples to back up my statement because aparently its knew on some people.

IN my brothers class a girl got a D and went around screaming that the teacher was a racist....fact is the girl didnt know her stuff. At my work we hired a black kid who was completely incompetent and he got fired, he then went to his friends screaming that we were all racists. My cousin works as a manager for a Wendy's in Iowa, he has had several black employees that he has had to fire and all went screaming that he is a racist. His wife manages another Wendy's....same thing. Hurricaine Katrina hits New Orleans and people are killed, almost immediatley people start screaming that Bush is a racist for letting them die and a poll that came out showed 80% of blacks beleived that the lack of response had something to do with the fact that they were black. Many company's have a fund set aside just incase Jesse Jackson dosnt chase after people and sue them.

Tarn I didnt mention the blacks that are fired because the managers are racist for a couple of reasons, one I dont know any such examples first hand and two, you yourself have just proved that I dont need to bring them up because you obviously have some in mind.

The U.S is the home of my ancestors, its freedom was bought by their blood and without my ancestors it wouldnt be here.... now thats the same for Mexico and their ancestors so I dont like the idea that now after the work has been done some guy decides that rather then stay in Mexico and do for his decendents what my forefathers did for me he will come here and try to change whats already here. This is my home....this is the product of my forefathers and to have someone come along and just squat off it is inferiating. Now you will say "america is built by immigrants" so lets get right to the bottom and discuss the immigrants that built America. When those immigrants came there was nothing here, if they wanted to be rich they would have gone to a European nation however they came here where there was nothing and they started a new world. They worked hard for it and died for it. Now that it exists some guy comes in and says "hey listen up everyone, you are now going to speak Spanish and if you dont you are racist..." now how do I react to this? Im not asking for someone to tell me that thats not what they are saying or that Im making things up.....just answer the question assuming that I am right.
Posted: Tue, 18th Oct 2005, 7:16pm

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Xcession

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some guy comes in and says "hey listen up everyone, you are now going to speak Spanish and if you dont you are racist..." now how do I react to this?
You say

"thank you for the opportunity to learn a new language. I have long wished that my holidays abroad weren't so awkward when it came to relating to the locals.

Also, with a keen eye for commerce i have identified that the spanish-speaking world makes up a considerable percentage of the planet. With this in mind, i feel it would be prudent to learn said language as it will dramatically increase my chances of getting a decent job, not to mention sharpen my mental faculties through the learning process and enrich me in the lives of another nation.

I whole-heartedly thank you for giving me this opportunity to broaden my horizons.

I am most definitely not a bigot and will not be using the rest of this phrase to try and inexplicably compare (and thereby taint) the joy of learning with propaganda that would embarass hitler, thinly veiling a deep-seated hatred of practically all other peoples."

Last edited Tue, 18th Oct 2005, 7:19pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Tue, 18th Oct 2005, 7:18pm

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Kid

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Frozenpede wrote:

The U.S is the home of my ancestors, its freedom was bought by their blood and without my ancestors it wouldnt be here.... now thats the same for Mexico and their ancestors so I dont like the idea that now after the work has been done some guy decides that rather then stay in Mexico and do for his decendents what my forefathers did for me he will come here and try to change whats already here. This is my home....this is the product of my forefathers and to have someone come along and just squat off it is inferiating. Now you will say "america is built by immigrants" so lets get right to the bottom and discuss the immigrants that built America. When those immigrants came there was nothing here, if they wanted to be rich they would have gone to a European nation however they came here where there was nothing and they started a new world. They worked hard for it and died for it. Now that it exists some guy comes in and says "hey listen up everyone, you are now going to speak Spanish and if you dont you are racist..." now how do I react to this? Im not asking for someone to tell me that thats not what they are saying or that Im making things up.....just answer the question assuming that I am right.
I'll think you will find that there was actually a lot there before 'Americans' turned up and claimed it. The Native americans were all but wiped out. Then 'Americans' won their freedom by rebelling against the very people who protected them and set them up there. Then they built the country on a foundation of slavery. I wouldn't say that America has a lot in its history to be proud of apart from the fact that it has come a long way from those times.

Also the reason I have said 'Americans' is because they wern't american then, they were mainly English, Spanish or French, a thing that movies and a lot of the general public seem to forget.

Last edited Tue, 18th Oct 2005, 7:20pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Tue, 18th Oct 2005, 7:19pm

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sk8npirate

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Frozenpede wrote:


When those immigrants came there was nothing here, if they wanted to be rich they would have gone to a European nation however they came here where there was nothing and they started a new world.
Native Americans might find that offensive.
Posted: Tue, 18th Oct 2005, 7:20pm

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Arktic

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Now you will say "america is built by immigrants" so lets get right to the bottom and discuss the immigrants that built America. When those immigrants came there was nothing here, if they wanted to be rich they would have gone to a European nation however they came here where there was nothing and they started a new world.
Erm, nothing except the indiginous tribespeople who'd been there for many years?
Posted: Tue, 18th Oct 2005, 7:27pm

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Simon K Jones

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Frozenpede wrote:

IN my brothers class a girl got a D and went around screaming that the teacher was a racist....fact is the girl didnt know her stuff. At my work we hired a black kid who was completely incompetent and he got fired, he then went to his friends screaming that we were all racists. My cousin works as a manager for a Wendy's in Iowa, he has had several black employees that he has had to fire and all went screaming that he is a racist. His wife manages another Wendy's....same thing.
As we've discussed today back and forth already, nobody is denying that this stuff happens. The difference is that you're the only one tarring an entire ethnicity with the same brush.

Personally, I see the people in those examples as weak idiots who will use anything as excuses. If they didn't have the race card, they'd try gender. If they didn't have that, they'd try disability. If they didn't have that, they'd claim some sort of compensation because they have big ears. That they have weak personalities that have to look for lame excuses has nothing to do with them being black, though. White people are just as good at making up crap excuses and passing the buck, it's just that you probably don't notice them so much.

All the above is, of course, working on the assumption that race indeed wasn't involved in their dismissals. Have you checked to make sure it wasn't?

Hurricaine Katrina hits New Orleans and people are killed, almost immediatley people start screaming that Bush is a racist for letting them die and a poll that came out showed 80% of blacks beleived that the lack of response had something to do with the fact that they were black.
I'd say it was pretty plain that was exactly what happened. Sure, it wasn't because they were black. But there is no denying that the huge majority of poor people left in NO when all hell broke loose were black. That's not because Bush and the government didn't care about them, it's because of an inherent problem in the society and local systems and history that have left an entire group of people with social and economical difficulties. Katrina highlighted the massive social problems for all to see.

Sure, over-reacting and accusing Bush of being racist and deliberately leaving them there is daft and doesn't help anybody. But think about it - they'd just seen their houses be destroyed, friends and loved ones drowned, the city was a death site, law and order had broken down: I think they had reason to be a little hysterical.

Now you will say "america is built by immigrants" so lets get right to the bottom and discuss the immigrants that built America. When those immigrants came there was nothing here,
Wrong. There were lots of native people and culture already in North America. Your forefathers had to kill and subdue them before they could establish their own world.

They worked hard for it and died for it. Now that it exists some guy comes in and says "hey listen up everyone, you are now going to speak Spanish and if you dont you are racist..."
Who says that? That's just bizarre. We have lots of immigration in the UK, but nobody is requiring us to speak foreign languages. Again, maybe situations are different due to location etc, but your statement there sounds very odd to me. Not speaking a particular language has absolutely nothing to do with racism, so who is claiming that it is? You should see it as an opportunity, not a problem (as Xcession said to much better effect).

now how do I react to this?
Illogically, by the looks of things. smile

Im not asking for someone to tell me that thats not what they are saying or that Im making things up.....just answer the question assuming that I am right.
Bottom line is that we're all influenced by our surroundings, our upbringing and culture etc.

I come from a background where racism is minimal-to-non-existent. I went to a school in which a class of 30 students would be made up of 25 different nationalities. I've lived in three different countries and been on holiday to several more.

North Carolina, on the other hand, sounds....not like that.

So I suppose my viewpoint on things is fairly inevitable, as is yours. We're all slaves to our histories and educators. Shame, really.
Posted: Tue, 18th Oct 2005, 8:31pm

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Fill

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Wow....This post has really gone to the seventh layer of hell...*cough*lock the post*cough*
Posted: Tue, 18th Oct 2005, 8:36pm

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Klausky

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Kid wrote:



I'll think you will find that there was actually a lot there before 'Americans' turned up and claimed it. The Native americans were all but wiped out. Then 'Americans' won their freedom by rebelling against the very people who protected them and set them up there. Then they built the country on a foundation of slavery. I wouldn't say that America has a lot in its history to be proud of apart from the fact that it has come a long way from those times.

Also the reason I have said 'Americans' is because they wern't american then, they were mainly English, Spanish or French, a thing that movies and a lot of the general public seem to forget.
Rebelling against the people who protected them? The British unjustly ruled over the American colonies. Corrupt taxes crushed the colonists while they were establishing themselves. Also, on the topic of racism, most American colonies were created for religious freedom like Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, and Rhode Island who broke away from the English crown.

America has nothing to be proud of? Thats like saying the French shouldn't be proud of the French Revolution, its ridiculous. America built itself from nothing but woodlands to the most powerful nation in the world. Plus, it gained its freedom in 1776. Compare that to nations like England and France and the dates they were created. Its completely stubborn to say America has nothing to be proud of.
Posted: Tue, 18th Oct 2005, 8:50pm

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Kid

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lisab8195 wrote:

Kid wrote:



I'll think you will find that there was actually a lot there before 'Americans' turned up and claimed it. The Native americans were all but wiped out. Then 'Americans' won their freedom by rebelling against the very people who protected them and set them up there. Then they built the country on a foundation of slavery. I wouldn't say that America has a lot in its history to be proud of apart from the fact that it has come a long way from those times.

Also the reason I have said 'Americans' is because they wern't american then, they were mainly English, Spanish or French, a thing that movies and a lot of the general public seem to forget.
Rebelling against the people who protected them? The British unjustly ruled over the American colonies. Corrupt taxes crushed the colonists while they were establishing themselves. Also, on the topic of racism, most American colonies were created for religious freedom like Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, and Rhode Island who broke away from the English crown.
Yes except the british ruled over the british colonists who happened to be in america. They taxed them to help pay for the war they just fought for them against the indians and the french and the incredible expense of securing and setting them up. How unjust that they should want something back for their efforts! Why should these new americans actually do anything for all the land and opportunity that obviously must be theirs simply for being there!?

Its also amusing to see who pays more taxes now razz

Last edited Tue, 18th Oct 2005, 8:51pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Tue, 18th Oct 2005, 8:50pm

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Simon K Jones

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lisab8195 wrote:

I wouldn't say that America has a lot in its history to be proud of apart from the fact that it has come a long way from those times.
America has nothing to be proud of? Thats like saying the French shouldn't be proud of the French Revolution, its ridiculous.
There are elements of the French revolution that the French aren't proud of. The bloody, horrific elements. Sure, out of it came a country that has prospered since, doesn't mean the actual event was all nice and shiny.

America built itself from nothing but woodlands to the most powerful nation in the world.
If you re-read what Kid said, he did acknowledge that you can be proud of how far you have come and where you have got to today. But a) it wasn't 'nothing but woodland' and b) as with the French Revolution, not every aspect of your nation's creation was pleasant (slavery, as Kid mentioned). Be proud of where you've got to, sure, as Kid suggested, but don't presume past history is clean. Every country has a dark past, and it's important to acknowledge that.

Plus, it gained its freedom in 1776. Compare that to nations like England and France and the dates they were created.
Not quite sure what your point is there. What exactly are we comparing?

Both England and France have had massive Empires that covered much of the known world at the time. Those Empires have now dwindled, almost certainly for the better. America is now having its time in the limelight and dipping a toe in colonial waters but, be under no illusions, it will pass to someone else at some point. At the height of the British Empire, it was inconceivable that it would ever lose power or its grip on the world, just as it seems impossible that the US will lose its stranglehold. But power always runs out, or transfer elsewhere, eventually. We've had our turn, you're having yours, I wonder who is next? China probably.

In terms of comparing advances, bear in mind that America had the benefit of coming along just as the industrial revolution hit (in England), then the digital revolution a century-or-two later. While other countries developed over hundreds of years of toil and strife, the USA came along at a convenient period where it could use all the modern advances, hence its rapid development.
Posted: Tue, 18th Oct 2005, 9:00pm

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Frozenpede

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We are finally getting somewhere smile

I do not classify all blacks together because of their skin color, I classify them together because of their unity. When working the poll's last election year for the November elections a lady come up to me and said that se agreed with my candidates but that the Democrats are the party of her race. Now I would isolate this as being just that one person but the simple fact is that its not. Their is a strong unity among blacks when it comes to polotics and the like. Between 70 to 80% of that particular race votes for that particular party. Is that because they are black? no its bceause, like I stated in my very first post, what race you are signifies where you are from and where you are from signifies your mindset because of geographical differences. In Harlem for example you grow up surrounded by people telling you that whites are out to get blacks.....so why not beleive that? it dosnt make that true but if its what you grow up hearing.... and that is why I make generalizations, Im not taking one on one confrontations and basing my entire view after them, I am taking the facts and saying "oh hey if the vast majority (which 70-80% is a vast majority) go this way then it is safe to say that there is an over riding view among this group of people" and thats all Ive done.

Saying this I have many black friends in fact one man I look up to as a mentor is black. Im not racist in the sense of hate and I do get to know everyone on a personal basis....but you have to admit that there is a very popular view point among the black populace.

As far as looking at learning Spanish as a blessing, well thats easy for you to say as (you have mentioned) you have not been faced with it. I have a love for knowledge, I am going to college to be a history teacher and (this may be hard for you to beleive) but I love all kinds of history and learning about the world....however there is a line to be crossed when you begin transforming MY world under the pretense of me showing interest in yours. Working in a Subway you have the same customers come in everyday, some of these are latinos that have been in the country on two years now and can hardly say the word "seven" and they are trying to teach me how to speak Spanish rather then them learning English. When I was in Cameroon I made an effort to learn French because I was in their country and its for me to do so....now I didnt do great and Im losing a lot but I got up to the point to where I could hold up a decent conversation when I had to and I could order from a resteraunt within the first month or two. Now why do others feel that they dont have to do the same for us?

Tarn you say you like learning about other cultures and other nations and so forth..... so dont you want to see all of them preserved? I like being able to leave America and go see other places, but I dont like being guilt tripped into it. I dont like Europeans telling us that we are arrogant unless we pass some test they have set for them... and frankly I refuse to pass it (as I beleive I have been making perfectly clear) because you have to see this from my point of view. How arrogant is it for others to be constantly putting us under the looking glass when we hardly ever do that to any European nation with the ferver that you have with us. You dont see long posts about French laws on religion.....which by the way I could really go off on (although I dont pretend to know all about it)

It is very clear that you and I are coming from very different cultures and we are obviously surrounded by very different pools of thought. Of course....once again this goes into what I said earlier about Harlem. SOme things that I have stated that have shocked you are very common statements around here, and I am sure that some of the things you said that sound a bit odd to me are very common statements where you live also


anyway Im late to meet someone redface
Posted: Tue, 18th Oct 2005, 9:10pm

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Kid

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So now every black person grew up in harlem and votes democrat?
Posted: Tue, 18th Oct 2005, 9:37pm

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Arktic

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In Harlem for example you grow up surrounded by people telling you that whites are out to get blacks
Oh, you've grown up there have you? Or do you just have some omniscient power that means you know the experience of everyone who grows up in Harlem?

You keep saying things like "the majority of the black populace hold this opinion" etc etc, but how can you know? On what the hell do you base these kind of 'statistics' about the feeling of an entire race? Is this again another application of that incredible power to know everything about everyone?
Posted: Tue, 18th Oct 2005, 10:24pm

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Simon K Jones

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Frozenpede wrote:

How arrogant is it for others to be constantly putting us under the looking glass when we hardly ever do that to any European nation with the ferver that you have with us.
That's because no European nation puts itself on a pedestal and attempts to set world policy in the same way that the USA does. If you want to play at being the most powerful country and strut your funky stuff all over the globe, then you have to be prepared to be the most examined country as well.

You dont see long posts about French laws on religion.....which by the way I could really go off on (although I dont pretend to know all about it)
French religion laws are a whole other debate, but the point is that France isn't exporting its religious laws or ideas, hence they have very little direct relevance to other countries. The USA, on the other hand, influences just about everything, and so people are naturally interested in your country. It isn't a big conspiracy, and I'm not sure why you get so paranoid about it.

I'd be interested in what your black mentor friend would think if he read this thread.
Posted: Tue, 18th Oct 2005, 11:24pm

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sk8npirate

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Guys can I just tell you before a certian someone makes us look even worse, not all Americans are that ignorant. Thanks.
Posted: Wed, 19th Oct 2005, 12:39am

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Bryce007

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Yeah, I think its pretty lame when europeans just jump on the "Americans are ignorant" bandwagon because its fun for them. Super lame.

And why the hell happened to this topic? Its keeps turning into a "Fxhome mods/designers VS. Members...I mean, really..Is there nothing better we could all discuss? I'm not a fan of snide foreign liberalism myself...
Posted: Wed, 19th Oct 2005, 12:43am

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averagejoe

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Rating: +1

I logon today and find this thread still alive. How encouraging!

I just got through reading the posts from today. Boy have things shifted here a bit.

Mr/Ms Frozenpepe
1) Spanish signs are popping up everywhere here in Alabama, the population of people of Hispanic origin are everywhere. However I have yet to come across a situation in school or professionally that requires I learn Spanish. To begin with, like in the past, such a national language shift would have to be voted on and ratified by the states. We are not being forced to learn it. In many "ethinic" communties native tongues are still taught and maintained along side English. (My wife's Grandmother spoke Polish to her family and English on the streets.)

2) Your broad sweeping generalized arguments may contain facts but it is not entirely correct to write off as the hard-fast truth. I work with "blacks" as you keep labling them that are ubhoared by the minority in thier own "race" that use whites vs black as an excuse or reason for being unsucessful or mistreated.

3) Am I one of the 3 conservatives in forum? I voted for Bush both times, I have conservative politics. But at the same time I practice tolerance of others opinion, feelings, and lifestyles. The fact that I voted Bush make me a conservative? I am not a card carrying republican. I vote on who I think has the best to offer me and my children. It just so happens that Gore and Kerry did not satisfy my concerns. I agreed with Bush more often than when I agreed with the other guys. However this does not mean I am blindly republican or right wing conservative.

4)You say you are not racist but your facts are impartially race based. Whether it is from your own personal experience or from stats you read from a poll you cannot deny you draw you conclusions along race lines. Not American lines.

5) Read "Portrait of an Anti Semite" Jean Paul Sartre It is a part of a larger work, any local library should have a copy. Once you take a look at this you will understand my point better. If you are afraid of Existentialist then you need to grow up. Reading other world views helps to find flaws and refine ones own ideas. As you read it remove Jew and replace it with black or what ever race or group you want. Once you do this with the arguments Sartre presents you will see that the generalizations you speak of are contrite and meaningless.
Posted: Wed, 19th Oct 2005, 1:00am

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Waser

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I hate all those snooty cheese eating nipple watching europeans who like to generalize the USA as well.
Posted: Wed, 19th Oct 2005, 1:09am

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ben3308

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averagejoe wrote:

1) Spanish signs are popping up everywhere here in Alabama
You guys think Alabama and North Carolina are bad, some down here to Texas, we've got more Spanish TV channels on local television than English ones. It wasn't until recently that my family opted for sattelite that I gto broadcasting that wasn't Telemundo or the show "Cristina!". If I walk outside (in my residential area) and can see HUNDREDS of hand-painted business signs in Spanish. Back when the English signs were here, there weren't even that many. The few English signs that there are are poorly written and full of syntactical errors. Like "Bets prices in twon" or "Exellennt Electronics" and stuff like that. It's that kind of stuff that bugs me. Other than that, I'm glad I have the Mexican influence where I live. Whern I went up to Maine for a week I spent the whole time desperately trying to find a taqueria or hole-in-the wall supermercado to get some good Tex-Mex. There was none. Texas is my home, and no matter how much I try to deny the Latino influence, the more I realize I can't live without it. (Though I would like a couple of the whiny Mexican radicals at my school to not be so racist towards Americans)

Kid wrote:



I'll think you will find that there was actually a lot there before 'Americans' turned up and claimed it. The Native americans were all but wiped out. Then 'Americans' won their freedom by rebelling against the very people who protected them and set them up there. Then they built the country on a foundation of slavery. I wouldn't say that America has a lot in its history to be proud of apart from the fact that it has come a long way from those times.

Also the reason I have said 'Americans' is because they wern't american then, they were mainly English, Spanish or French, a thing that movies and a lot of the general public seem to forget.
Rebelling against the people who protected them? The British unjustly ruled over the American colonies. Corrupt taxes crushed the colonists while they were establishing themselves. Also, on the topic of racism, most American colonies were created for religious freedom like Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, and Rhode Island who broke away from the English crown.[/quote]

Yes except the british ruled over the british colonists who happened to be in america. They taxed them to help pay for the war they just fought for them against the indians and the french and the incredible expense of securing and setting them up. How unjust that they should want something back for their efforts! Why should these new americans actually do anything for all the land and opportunity that obviously must be theirs simply for being there!?

Its also amusing to see who pays more taxes now razz[/quote]

Ooooooooooookay, well that arguement in a generally half American discussion isn't gonna ever be won. My schooling has taught me for sixteen years that the British were a horrible, oppressive mother country and that all the colonists wanted was freedom. Sure, this may not be the whole truth, but if you're from the UK, I can guarantee you you're gonna feel the opposite way, and that little to nothing will change your mind. Maybe some unbiased Indian or German guy can help us judge this issue, but you can't just say that England was a saint to the New World, that's just not true. I'd rather not argue this because you're probably NEVER gonna change any American's mind about this. Ever. We've just been taught otherwise all our lives, there's no changing it.

So drop this.
Posted: Wed, 19th Oct 2005, 1:10am

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Fill

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Waser wrote:

I hate all those snooty cheese eating nipple watching europeans who like to generalize the USA as well.
Damn, Waser. That's pretty harsh!

Still...In a way I think the British have NO room to talk about the USA and about the 'faults' and 'racism' and the same with us. We have no room to talk about you guys either. We are on our own turf and neither of us know more about eachother. HAHA!!! Nipple watching....
Posted: Wed, 19th Oct 2005, 1:12am

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Bryce007

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I say, High-Five Everybody and everybody, from every racial backround Period. With one condition. As long as they don't feel sorry for themselves and/or use it as an excuse for Problems they have.
Posted: Wed, 19th Oct 2005, 1:13am

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Fill

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Good point. Don't use racism as an excuse. It's only another obsticle in life.
Posted: Wed, 19th Oct 2005, 1:58am

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Frozenpede

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Alright here is what is really at the core of this whole debate. Liberals seam forever able to demonize those that dont agree with them by coming up with terms like "narrowminded, bigoted, homophobe" and then we the reader are expected (and sadly often do) read these post and just accept these for arguments. In this case I cant beleive anyone is actually surprised that I bring up race in a debate about race, yet someone says "you call them blacks!" and I am forever demonized for it. Of course I call them blacks....they are. Of course I draw conclusions based on "this culture does this, this culture does this." in fact that is the same thing you liberals have been doing all along. "American culture does this, American culture does that" yet this somehow goes unnoticed and your statements taken as fact. As to....was it Kid or Arktic that asked if I were an expect as to the ways of Harlem, well so far this whole argument has been out of your country and no one has questioned you yet.

Taking words and twisting them and demonizing your oponent in an argument only get you so far. As long as we are on American arogance, hows about liberal arrogance:

Liberals: enlightened
conservatives: backwards
Liberals: open minded
conservatives: narrowminded
Liberals: accepting
conservatives: intolerant

does it occur to you that simply by claiming to be those things you are not? if you were open minded then you would have to be open to the idea that you are narrowminded..... but then you couldnt be enlightened because you would know for a fact whether you narrowminded or openminded......but then you couldnt be open to the idea that you could be the opposite.

I will not be intimidated by meaningless playing on words and giving of titles and I wish someother Americans and most importantly conservatives wouldnt be won over by them either.
Posted: Wed, 19th Oct 2005, 2:17am

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averagejoe

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I will not be intimidated by meaningless playing on words and giving of titles and I wish someother Americans and most importantly conservatives wouldnt be won over by them either.
Ditto for me.

I thought I did a good job of avoiding :"narrowminded, bigoted, homophobe"" lables in my posts. Was this just a general retort to the feeling you are getting from opposing or different views other than your version of conservatism? I dont think I said you were racist but that the ideas you put forth have a racist tone.

Example. I align myself with the Mormon/LDS church does that mean I wear black, live in Utah, have 10 wives and heavenly messengers talking to me? That is a generalized and historically stereotyplical view of a Mormon.

My point is the stats you use as basis for you argument are too general. Unless you poll every person in the group the poll is inherently false. IMO polls are trash anyway, anything with a +/- error margin tacked on it admits it is trash. To be completely irrefutable fact, every person in the group would have to be polled.
Posted: Wed, 19th Oct 2005, 3:14am

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Frozenpede

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well alright you have a good point. However debates are a generalized area in the first place, you are not talking one on one when you are talking stats, and I do not go into a personal relationship with a person based on stats. HOWEVER that does not mean that there are not mainstream thought lines that are visible......racism to me would be saying that those thought lines are caused BECAUSE they are black, I simply say that there is a visible thoughtline among them. I also say there are many visible thoughtlines, those among christians, atheists, and others..... Im not even saying that all races have mainstream thoughtlines... but some do.


anyway thats it for me, Im out of this topic......lets all agree to be bigots and not change our minds smile

oh and averagejoe I have noticed that some people have kept from playing with words, you and Tarn in particular and Im glad to see it....oh and Xcession as well.
Posted: Wed, 19th Oct 2005, 9:02am

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Xcession

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I realise your "lets all agree to be bigots" line is more a joke than anything so this post is written with this in mind. Fortunately not everyone actually is a bigot, but this joke does somewhat nervously gloss over some of the quite polarised opinions raised in this thread.

Bigotry in its definitive form is absolute, not relative and is easily identifyable.

bigot [fr] One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

The throwing around of labels doesn't advanced a discussion, agreed, however anyone can refer to the dictionary in their defense, which exist for the express purpose of categorically labelling someone or something. Anyone here can argue they aren't a bigot, but if they adhere to the definition above, there is simply no discussion.

I can't think of one favorable use of the word 'bigot', so joking aside - its a vice no rational, mature human should ever happily admitting to.

On a side note, i think this thread is probably a world record for FXHome - a discussion with almost no childishness which hasn't ended in a moderator locking it because its out of hand. It certainly sank into a far deeper discussion than it was originally intended, but things never got too heated. Therefore Kudos to most of those involved.

Last edited Wed, 19th Oct 2005, 11:09am; edited 3 times in total.

Posted: Wed, 19th Oct 2005, 9:50am

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Simon K Jones

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Bryce007 wrote:

Yeah, I think its pretty lame when europeans just jump on the "Americans are ignorant" bandwagon because its fun for them. Super lame.
I've not really seen much evidence of that in this thread (and I agree it's annoying when people resort to such easy hit-and-run tactics). For the most part it seems to have been a very civil and informed debate on all sides. Nobody was ever going to change anybody else's mind, but I still found it a very interesting debate.

That the debaters happened to be almost all from the UK on one side of the argument and almost all from the US on the other side is purely incidental, I think.

And why the hell happened to this topic? Its keeps turning into a "Fxhome mods/designers VS. Members...
Not really. There's plenty from all sides chipping in. If the FXhome team seems to have a united front of sorts, that's probably just because we work together, thus have similar outlooks on life, plus we probably tend to pick mods because they reflect our views to some degree.

But I wouldn't really categorise this as a "VS." situation. It's a debate to find out differing opinions from various parts of the world. Personally I find it fascinating, I'm not sure why some get so infuriated by a good debate. smile

I mean, really..Is there nothing better we could all discuss?
Well, admittedly this hasn't got much to do with visual effects or filmmaking. smile But I think this is one of the most interesting topics I've seen all year. If you'd rather discuss something else, there's nothing stopping you from starting another topic, or simply ignoring this one. smile

I'm not a fan of snide foreign liberalism myself...
As far as I can tell, several viewpoints have been put forward during the discussion. If you want to get defensive and start labelling anybody that has slightly differing opinions as 'snide foreign liberalism', then fair enough.

Personally, I don't buy into easy categories of 'liberal' and 'conservative' etc. I make my mind up based on the evidence of the particular situation. Hence some of my ideas are very liberal, and some are very, very reactionary and conservative. You can't use a single term to define a person (in fact, that's half of what this thread is all about!), and anybody that tries to shoehorn their own personality into a particular category is doing themselves a disservice, if you ask me.

Simply dismissing alternative viewpoints as 'snide foreign liberalism' is a bit of a cop-out, really. In fact, it's about as cheap as the "Americans are ignorant" accusation that you complained about up above. Maybe you were being ironic, in which case I apologise for misunderstanding. smile
Posted: Wed, 19th Oct 2005, 10:02am

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jotoki

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but if you're from the UK, I can guarantee you you're gonna feel the opposite way.
Unfortunately Ben this is once again a generalisation , one of many on this thread by several people on both sides of the arguement. This one can easily be proven wrong just by me saying I'm from the UK and dont feel the opposite way to you. We all have to accept dark things from our countries past some of which still influence the racial tensions that can be found today. All you can do is learn from these mistakes and dark times. To say that it's what you're taught and thats it...well you can chose to bindly believe what you're taught along with everyone else like a zombie or you can actually go out a find out for yourself what really happened. So to say those beliefs taught in school cant be changed is just plane wrong. Its simply educational lazyness and sadly exists both sides of the Atlantic.

Incidentally Waser I dont like cheese much and find nipple watching risky, especially when I'm driving but yeah I'd probably be snooty to someone with that kind of attitude. Interesting things you came up with though never heard those before so at least you're thinking about your insults even if they dont make a great deal of sense, or did you just go and see the wallace and gromit movie ? that would explain the cheese, it's safe to assume then that no american eat cheese ? You did miss out tea drinking and some quip about warm beer.....just some more to remember for next time.
Posted: Wed, 19th Oct 2005, 10:30am

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Xcession

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...or having a snaggle-toothed grins
Posted: Wed, 19th Oct 2005, 10:38am

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jotoki

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yeah indeed although I do so I thought I'd keep quiet about that one
Posted: Wed, 19th Oct 2005, 12:40pm

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ashman

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I'm in the UK, I like cheese, and erm tbh if there was a nice hot chick in front of me shaking her jublees about, well let's just say i wouldn't dislike it. I do drink 1 cup of tea a day, but i also drink green tea. Does this screw up the whole UK stereotype, I don't have a mostache and a bowler hat with a pinstripe suit, i also don't have a umbrella, o dear. Because it does rains all time and im constantly saying things like, hello chaps, and farewell old boy. Do people really think we in the UK do these things, it's utter maddness. I'm sure there may be 1% like that but hey, even if they do so what. If they do think these things would it make them a racist? or ignorant? I don't understand the whole race thing, I have absolutly no hang ups about the subject, If i dislike anybody it's because of the attitudes they display towards other people, i can not stand bullies or people think they are above any one else. Is saying that person is black, racist? I don't think it is, maybe people take the whole issue too far and it gets lost, and then everyone forgets whats going on, whats right and whats wrong. I know many different people from all diferent backgrounds of life from all over the world, and they are all brilliant lovely people, and i would do anything for them anytime. I can't understand why some one would dislike another just because of there beliefs or skin colour, I know the obvious answer, but how did it come to this. Maybe im nieve, but if i am, im glad, because without it, I would never have met the people I have, and because of them, I have got through some very tough times in my life. For all i care they could be aliens from mars, i would still love them.
Posted: Wed, 19th Oct 2005, 5:27pm

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Arktic

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Frozenpede :
For someone who doesn't like "playing with words", I'd say:

"does it occur to you that simply by claiming to be those things you are not? if you were open minded then you would have to be open to the idea that you are narrowminded..... but then you couldnt be enlightened because you would know for a fact whether you narrowminded or openminded......but then you couldnt be open to the idea that you could be the opposite."

Was a bit... well, wordy.

Anyway, I think you've missed my point (or ignored the fact entirely) - you have no right nor factual basis for saying "most black people think this or that". I simply don't understand HOW you can not realise how absurd it is to claim that the majority of such a diverse group of people hold certain ideas with no factual basis (other than "well, I heard it on the radio").

That is all.
Arktic.
Posted: Wed, 19th Oct 2005, 8:44pm

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Bryce007

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Well said tarn. I wasnt referring to anyone certain person on that Europeans liberalism comment, I think its lame when, as i said, People from other countrys become pompous at the drop of the word "america".

And As for that whole "STFU" thing...Come on man..thats one of those things i might have reccomended Not posting..

(EDIT) oh..Nevermind.. That was some quick modding. Im impressed.
Posted: Tue, 8th Nov 2005, 11:03am

Post 150 of 163

Ice_Man

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jotoki wrote:

You did miss out tea drinking and some quip about warm beer.....just some more to remember for next time.
But I'm American and I like tea, and the best beer is served room temperature, the only reason American beer is served ice cold is to disguise the flavor (or lack thereof)


After reading all ten pages of this topic, I do find it humourous that it's really only the Americans that had any remote interest in the "white pride day". My family is originally from Texas, though I live in Michigan now. Massive hispanic community in Texas, an even bigger 'Dutch' community here in Michigan. The odd thing, is that the Dutch Americans are NOTHING like the European Dutch. Sorry, just a small observation. .
As an almost-middle aged white male, I really don't see anything for the average white american to be proud of. Historically speaking, white Americans have a horrible track record. On top of that, white Americans (as a very broad generalisation) are loud, opionated, rude, and rather tasteless. I'm not proud to admit it, but most of us are.

We have nothing that is "ours", white Americans just leach from every other society on the face of this planet. "As American as apple pie" my ass.

What I can't understand is why people want to come here. Do most immigrants come to America for the "American Culture" (ha, jokes on them, we don't have one smile ), or to live "the American Dream" (even bigger joke, that dream sucks, most natural born Americans can't attain that)? We have mediocre cuisine (the good stuff is all foreign), horribly corrupt politicians, high taxes, and a bad world rep. But I still like living here.
Also, there's definitely a good amount of indifference when it comes to global politics where Americans are concerned. But, can you blame us? It's almost all we can do to keep track of our own government, let alone a dozen other countries!


Xcession wrote:

Bigotry in its definitive form is absolute, not relative and is easily identifyable.

bigot [fr] One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.
As you were saying Xcession, racism doesn't apply only to one's skin color. First thought I had when I read that, was all the times I've read Europeans poking Americans for being stupid, arrogant, lazy, or whatnot, on this forum. That's nothing against you personally, of course, but I just thought that made your point pretty well.

Heck, stretching it pretty thin, you could probably almost consider Democrats v Republicans to be racist razz
Posted: Wed, 9th Nov 2005, 3:11pm

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drspin98

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I had once read a report that talked about a major corporation and how every "group" (white males, women, blacks, Latinos, etc.) each felt THEY were the group being held back in the company because of bias. It really defangs the injustice of true racism (as rare as TRUE racism is these days) when such claims are made-by so many different people.
Posted: Wed, 9th Nov 2005, 4:24pm

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Waser

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true racism. Right.
Posted: Wed, 9th Nov 2005, 4:32pm

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Kolchin

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Here's a short joke on anti-racists. And its true.

In this case it was considered "racist" to call a black person African.
Two black Africans came over to America. When they entered a university and signed their racial background as "African". And man they got into some trouble.

This is serious now.

While we may argue about racialism, what about other discriminations. Certain "retarded" and elderly people are being basically refused the protection or rights a normal person gets. As in the New Orleans case, where doctors in nursing homes killed their patients, people that trusted them with their lives, because the supplies were low. If you follow this example of "mercy killing" when things look bad, are we going to start ordering our soldiers to kill each other if they are badly or mortally wounded? There's little difference between pulling the plug on a suffering octogenarian and shooting a screaming young man who's got his chest blown apart.

And naturally, in the case of UK vs USA, you side with you fatherland. Every one of us when we were young would boast that our dad was better than yours. Whether this is racialism or national pride and patriotism is for you to decide.
Posted: Thu, 10th Nov 2005, 10:51pm

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Arktic

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And its true.
Got a source for that? Because I highly, highly doubt it's truth - not a slur on you, just it sounds very much apocryphal.

Cheers,
Arktic.
Posted: Fri, 11th Nov 2005, 5:27pm

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Fill

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WOAH EH?!

I thought this whole sha-bang went bye bye a while ago...
Posted: Fri, 11th Nov 2005, 5:57pm

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ashman

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I dislike the terms fatherland and motherland, and the whole stupid topic that is UK vs USA, what the hell has got into people. Vs arguments like that are almost created by people who thrive on wars, of course most wars start by idiots who have no idea or care real important thing, which is the people. People are hurt and want no part in some immature phamtom poll. Why should one be better than the other and if so, so bloody what. And anybody out there who think british people call the UK their fatherland are stupid, where the hell did that come from, never in my whole life have i heard any british person call it that.
Posted: Fri, 11th Nov 2005, 6:20pm

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JT9

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Hello man when you mean that much racism where you live man that must suck I wish there was no such thing as racism we are all humans with fealings they need to get that threw there head. Mabey some day the people that beleave in racism woud know that we are all humans.

Travis Bridevaux aka jedijt9
Posted: Fri, 11th Nov 2005, 6:24pm

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Lithium Kraft

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All I can say at this point is I can't believe this topic is still alive.
Posted: Fri, 11th Nov 2005, 6:41pm

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JT9

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Hey we are talking about a cause that is all over the world and its sad that there is that much hatrid between somthing so dumb wich is just where we come from and you dont need to write in here if you dont like this fourm.
Posted: Fri, 11th Nov 2005, 6:51pm

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JT9

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That is if you are saying somthing bad about it. unsure Cause if you are not I am sorry.
Posted: Fri, 11th Nov 2005, 10:23pm

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Lithium Kraft

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Racism is so blatantly horrible, it doesn't seem like much could be argued about it. Racism needs to disappear. Forever. All forms of it, if there is such thing as different "levels" of pure evil. That's what I meant.
Posted: Mon, 14th Nov 2005, 1:18pm

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drspin98

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Just curious to hear a (true) example of what people consider "racism".
Posted: Mon, 14th Nov 2005, 2:50pm

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devilskater

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drspin98 wrote:

Just curious to hear a (true) example of what people consider "racism".
Calling white people that live in africa "wiggas" is racist wink

KIds in my class call me that nowadays...cause I am half south african and white...but anyways...

cheers,
d.