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Sony's Latest Stunt... Pathetic

Posted: Wed, 2nd Nov 2005, 2:35pm

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TommyB

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In what's set to be 2005's hottest story yet Sony have been found to install illegal Trojan horse-based digital restrictions management (DRM) technology that installs itself as a rootkit on Windows PCs.
Users who purchase certain Sony Music CDs from online stores like Amazon are subject to this rootkit being installed on their machines.
What's more fun is that attempting to remove the rootkit with common tools that perform a RKR scan will render a Windows XP machine useslesss.
http://www.neowin.net/comments.php?id=31268

Quite honestly, Sony are morons.

Firstly, they release the 'iPod Killer' that can't play MP3s, and only supports their own format!

Secondly, Blu-Ray sounds like a fantastic piece of technology. Oh wait, Sony have implemented just about every method of DRM protection conceivable. Useless.

Another case study… I was going to buy a MiniDV camcorder with “5.1 Surround Sound support.” Sounds good, doesn’t it?
I email Sony, asking how one would go about extracting this from the video. Firstly, you need Sony's software (fair enough) but, then, they go on to say that the software will ONLY work on Sony PCs and Laptops.

WTF do they think they're playing at!?

They're starting to annoy everyone now. I was a fan of the PS3, but I'm really not too sure. Are absolute cretins running Sony? Sony used to symbolise QUALITY, but now it seems their name is being tarnished by the day. They still make good products, for example their televisions, but there's always a catch. I'm going to avoid Sony at all costs now, and I'm sure I'm not the only consumer thinking this.
Posted: Wed, 2nd Nov 2005, 3:35pm

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Xog2

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Yeah, I have decided awhile ago never to buy anymore products from Sony.
Posted: Wed, 2nd Nov 2005, 3:36pm

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TommyB

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It just annoys me that an ex-fantastic company is being destroyed by cretins.

It's like Bill Gates saying the next version of Windows will have an advanced DRM layer between the OS and the sound card, that will prevent all illegal MP3s from being played. It's suicide.
Posted: Wed, 2nd Nov 2005, 3:46pm

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shiftd

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isnt that a monopoly or something? or am i thinking of something else?
Posted: Wed, 2nd Nov 2005, 3:50pm

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irishcult

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All though i dont buy there hardware and very little of there software i will admit that there trying to change the industry fir them selfs. MAking it harder for other companys to excel. But in there defence there support for there products is one of the best i'ved. Canon is the only other company that i have used there support that is better then sony and any one tring to put lyra rca out of business is good for me. But i do find there antics to be a little unnecessary.
Nice Find
Irishcult

Bill Gates-
"Ummm i got an idea. Its called ummm Microsoft.........DOORS!"
*sarcasm*

Last edited Wed, 2nd Nov 2005, 3:58pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Wed, 2nd Nov 2005, 3:57pm

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Waser

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RAAAAA i hate EVERYTHING!!!!!!
Posted: Wed, 2nd Nov 2005, 5:04pm

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A Pickle

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Sony may be retarded in their own proprietary moronism... but... Microsoft is actually attempting to defend your rights to copy. Not pirate (which is what DRM is intended to prevent) but copy. That's why they endorsed the HD-DVD standard as opposed to Blu-Ray.

DRM isn't a bad thing. It stops media piracy, not much else.
Posted: Wed, 2nd Nov 2005, 5:34pm

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Remco Gerritsen

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Well, just a few days ago I decided to buy the Sony DCR - HC90...

Would this also be a rip-off... Or is it a good cam ?
Posted: Wed, 2nd Nov 2005, 5:40pm

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TommyB

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rrfproductions wrote:

Well, just a few days ago I decided to buy the Sony DCR - HC90...

Would this also be a rip-off... Or is it a good cam ?
That's the camera I was looking at.

Apparently it's a really good camera, but it's the exact one I'm refering to in my post above. I bought the Panasonic GS250, but I remember looking at a Russian site comparing it to the HC90e, and they were very close.

The GS250 is one of the best consumer camcorders I've ever used though, absolutely stunning.
Posted: Wed, 2nd Nov 2005, 6:05pm

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malone

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A Pickle wrote:

DRM isn't a bad thing. It stops media piracy, not much else.
I'd disagree, this is the perfect example of DRM doing bad things. I also can't think of any DRM scheme that has successfully prevented piracy. All it ever does is stop the average user from using the media they bought in the way they want.

A while back I kept buying audio cds that prevented me ripping them to my PC. I find it convenient to just click the music I want to listen to, but these CDs made it more hassle, so they now live unused in my cupboard. In the end I stopped buying CDs as I never listened to them, which is a pretty lose-lose situation for me and the labels. (Although now I just listen to Internet radio and independent bands that don't cripple their music.)

Back to the Sony thing; while I think its pretty underhanded I also think the media has over-sensationalised it. Is this really a rootkit? How many rootkits do you know that come with a EULA that says the program is going to be installed? Which you have to agree to before it actually installs. And that you have to be logged in as an admin for it to work.

I think it's good that this is getting reported, but I think it's sad that the media has to completely demonise it before people will listen.
Posted: Wed, 2nd Nov 2005, 6:08pm

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Zea

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[quote="TommyB"]
Firstly, you need Sony's software (fair enough) but, then, they go on to say that the software will ONLY work on Sony PCs and Laptops.

I dont think that thats right..I think they were just recommending their pc products...unless they have their own type of non-universal cable or something, otherwise it would work. But I agree, many of these companies are becoming more and more strict, and this is how technology will ruin itself.

Z
Posted: Wed, 2nd Nov 2005, 7:26pm

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A Pickle

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All it ever does is stop the average user from using the media they bought in the way they want.
I suppose that's true. The intent is to stop piracy, and I guess it fails in doing so.
Posted: Wed, 2nd Nov 2005, 7:30pm

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Redhawksrymmer

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I must agree with most of the people here, it just is a complete failure. I havn't lost faith in Sony yet, so I'll get PS3 anyway.
Posted: Wed, 2nd Nov 2005, 8:12pm

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Anonymous Tipster

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I'm against piracy, but i'm waaay more against companies like Sony doing things that restrict user's freedom. What they are doing with this trojan is sneaky and despicable, only equal to that of spyware. In the end, Sony is only damaging themselves, because people who know about this 'protection' will simply download a hacked CD from a P2P application.

I think that if we own the media, we should be allowed to copy it onto our computers for our own use, in fact, i'm listening to a ripped CD as I write this. The problem is stopping pirates, but allowing user freedom to those who legally own the CD. The only way to stop P2P applications sharing copyright protected data would require something in the OS (or the P2P itself, but this won't happen), but this would mean that Apple and Microsoft would both have to agree on this in order to prevent loss of market share, and even then, people would dual boot linux for their pirating needs.
The only viable solution would be a way of mangling the data if it was sent over the internet, which would limit piracy to 'Hey, I've got that CD, do you want to copy it?'.

Also, some people said that the EULA contains no information about the trojan, but I can't confirm this.
Posted: Wed, 2nd Nov 2005, 8:24pm

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Arktic

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I'm against piracy, but i'm waaay more against companies like Sony doing things that restrict user's freedom.
To be honest, I think people these days get far too worked up about what companies do.

I mean, if they ripped you off by doing something underhand, then fine, get annoyed at that. But when they announce that you won't be able to copy CDs or such, surely it's their perogative to do that?

If you don't like a company, then just stop doing business with them. It's like when people buy DVDs and complain that there are no extras or something, as if having extras is some sort of god given right that must be adhered to, and any film company that doesn't is clearly ripping the consumer off!

[/rant]

All in all, if you don't like em, fine, but why get so worked up? You'll die of hypotension before you're 30!
Posted: Wed, 2nd Nov 2005, 8:45pm

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TommyB

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As Malone said, most of the DRM technologies are cracked by the people they're trying to stop.

I've already stripped about 100 iTunes downloads for use on my phone. Why the hell should I only be able to listen to them on my PC and my iPod?

A normal consumer, however, won't have a slightest clue as to how you remove it.
Posted: Wed, 2nd Nov 2005, 9:12pm

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Serpent

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Er, the PS2 hardware wasn't that bad, so I am sure the will improve it in the PS3. My decision on the PS3/XB360 will be the software. I am still not sure, but PS3 software lineup is already looking good. I guess luckily, I have never had an encounter with Sony in my household, save TVs. We have one Sony TV and it's great. But I do think they are turining into a bunch of nitwits.
Posted: Wed, 2nd Nov 2005, 9:20pm

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malone

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Arktic wrote:

they announce that you won't be able to copy CDs or such, surely it's their perogative to do that?
I think it's interesting to go back and consider what the point of copyright actually is. It's not a natural right, it's a deal that the government offers to encourage people to create new things that will benefit society. They basically say that you create some wizzy thing and share it with the public, in return they'll give you a monopoly on it for a fixed period of time (say 30 years). This gives you time to recoup your costs and hopefully make a decent profit.

After the copyright period expires it's meant to fall into the public domain. So at the end of the day you've made your money and everyone else has free access to your innovation. Everybody wins, thats the point of copyright.

Theres also other clauses built into the copyright system. It varies by government, but theres usually a set of rights that say what a person can do with the media they've purchased (one of them is normally the ability to make a personal copy). If companies start restricting these rights then they're basically welching on the deal. In some cases these copy restrictions will stop the media ever falling into the public domain, which completely goes against the point of copyright.

I think people are very vocal on the subject, mainly because you will lose your rights if you don't try to protect them. And once you've lost them it will be very hard to get them back.
Posted: Wed, 2nd Nov 2005, 9:22pm

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Fill

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The PS3 sucks. So does the new MSG for it. I think they are kinda going wacko with there designs(*cough*Nintendo*cough*) and they just don't have the touch anymore. It kinda deid a while ago. The PSP and the PS2 are great but I still say that Sony is slightly going downhill.

[/opinion that is not to be deleted wink]

And I agree with Arktic. Why are you getting so worked up on a company? Sure you may like their products but still it's just stuff. I could live without a computer(after many months of theropy)!

I say just who cares about them. They make cool camcorders and stuff but there is always something to replace it. *trying to aviod saying a Qui-Gon quote from Episode I*
Posted: Wed, 2nd Nov 2005, 9:31pm

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Joshua Davies

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Malone makes some very good points. Although I'm not against DRM myself (hence I use the iTunes store) I can see that it could be a breach current copyright laws - hmm.

I have no idea what the best sollution is - but I do support companies trying to stop movies and music getting so freely copied across the web. As Malone states, there are no methods which have worked so far and many of these new methods seem to restrict the legit purchaser as much as the pirate.

Getting back to Sony, I hope the PS3 ends their run of dodgy products - if all the developer rumours are true then I think it will do.

The PS3 sucks
- You can't say that about something which isn't out yet and appears the be the most powerful games console ever made. Just stating that something you say is an "opinion" doesn't mean you can just type random rubbish and feel protected. The Xbox360 and the PS3 both look like they are packing some stunning power but most of the games look like the same old stuff with really flashy graphics (bet the first games don't look half as good as many people are expecting).

Last edited Wed, 2nd Nov 2005, 9:38pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Wed, 2nd Nov 2005, 9:33pm

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TommyB

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The PS3's technical architecture is superior to that of the Xbox 360's in terms of processing power, graphics and connectivity. There is no debate! This is fact! I will however state that this doesn't necessarily mean the PS3 will be faster.

Anyway, to be honest... summing up the two consoles only involves the phrase 'same s**t, different flavour' tbh.

However, the PS2 was designed DELIBERATELY so that the disk drive would break after heavy usage. It was a very poor design, and millions of PS2 owners were getting 'disk read' errors after a year or two of use. Most people I know are on their second/third consoles.
Posted: Wed, 2nd Nov 2005, 9:40pm

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Joshua Davies

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Still on my first PS2 - got it the day it came out and it still runs fine. Had about 3 PS1s - they were pretty badly made. But then I also had 3 SNES and they didn't even have moving parts.
Posted: Wed, 2nd Nov 2005, 9:46pm

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TommyB

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schwar wrote:

Still on my first PS2 - got it the day it came out and it still runs fine. Had about 3 PS1s - they were pretty badly made. But then I also had 3 SNES and they didn't even have moving parts.
But you're probably not the sort of person who sits on it for hours and hours every day. You know what those school kids are like, get home from school at 4, sit on the thing until 10 at night.
Posted: Wed, 2nd Nov 2005, 9:52pm

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Kid

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I think drm and copyright is being taken to far and goverments have gone along with the media because they have money.

Piracy isn't killing the industry and against these huge companies the effect if any is to increase profits. Music profits are higher than ever before and movie takes have only been down this year on last because of the rubbish they've been putting out. The general trend is a huge increase in profits.

Copyright was never intended so that people could make something and then sell it thousands of times over to make tons of profit and control what people can or can't experience. It is there to make sure its worth someone's while to come up with new ideas and no more. The extreme that it is currently moving further towards is both greedy and immoral and is growing more and more unacceptable to society. This is why piracy is growing and has a lot of sympathy with your average Joe.

The West is already feeling the backlash of anti capitalism from poorer countries that we have historical and are still taking advantage of. I think as time goes on its going to come to a boil and may even be what brings about WW3.
Posted: Wed, 2nd Nov 2005, 9:57pm

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TommyB

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Kid wrote:

I think drm and copyright is being taken to far and goverments have gone along with the media because they have money.

Piracy isn't killing the industry and against these huge companies the effect if any is to increase profits. Music profits are higher than ever before and movie takes have only been down this year on last because of the rubbish they've been putting out. The general trend is a huge increase in profits.

Copyright was never intended so that people could make something and then sell it thousands of times over to make tons of profit and control what people can or can't experience. It is there to make sure its worth someone's while to come up with new ideas and no more. The extreme that it is currently moving further towards is both greedy and immoral and is growing more and more unacceptable to society. This is why piracy is growing and has a lot of sympathy with your average Joe.

The West is already feeling the backlash of anti capitalism from poorer countries that we have historical and are still taking advantage of. I think as time goes on its going to come to a boil and may even be what brings about WW3.
If DVDs and CDs weren't overpriced, there wouldn't be as much piracy. I know people who happily pay a fiver for pirate DVDs, and they really don't care about the fact that it's costing the film and music industry vast sums of money.

It'd just be so nice if new CDs were a fiver, for example.
Posted: Wed, 2nd Nov 2005, 11:31pm

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A Pickle

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Kid wrote:

The West is already feeling the backlash of anti capitalism from poorer countries that we have historical and are still taking advantage of. I think as time goes on its going to come to a boil and may even be what brings about WW3.
I would strongly doubt that. As cold, or as odd as it may sound, it would seem that capitalism works, and that communist and/or religiously run leadership systems do not. Capitalist nations are the first world countries on this planet, anything that isn't is third world. That would seem to indicate to me we're doing something right.

On the same token, we're not perfect, nobody's perfect, and I concur with TommyB in that DVD's and CD's and... consumer products overall should not be so overpriced. I believe that, soon, distributed media such as DVD's and CD's will be going lower and lower in price, but in the meantime, I agree, they are overpriced.

Still, that doesn't give anyone the right to pirate anything. For all intents and purposes, piracy is nothing short of theivery. Pirating a program is stealing a product that deservedly should be paid for. I will admit, I've pirated some stuff (3D Studio Max 7, mine's legal! Bah ha haa!) and I hate the fact that I have. It's wonderful having a legal copy of Windows XP, and 3D Studio Max. I only have two illegally acquired applications on my computer one of whose days is numbered.

I admit it -- I am a theif and I'm not proud of it. I aim to repent for my sins. wink
Posted: Thu, 3rd Nov 2005, 3:56am

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Gnome326

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WHat? An omish pirating stuff from Sony? Much less using technology?!? That unheard of! lol
Posted: Thu, 3rd Nov 2005, 6:35am

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Madmanmatty

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I'm a pirate.


Argh.
Posted: Thu, 3rd Nov 2005, 11:14am

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TommyB

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I think almost everyone is a thief. Is there anyone here who has honestly never used a P2P application?

I never buy/download pirate CDs or DVDs. Only TV episodes, that IMO should be shown here at the same time in America (OC, Stargate etc)

Ok, fine, the only exception was Sin City, but that's because I didn't get in to the cinema (age)...

However, I now use iTunes to download music instead of P2P. I'm quite happy paying out for songs. What we need, is more services that cater digital/internet demand.
Posted: Thu, 3rd Nov 2005, 12:03pm

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Pooky

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slashdot wrote:

"Sony seems to have heard the commotion. They have offered a "Service Pack" to uninstall the DRM Rootkit. From the announcement: 'This Service Pack removes the cloaking technology component that has been recently discussed in a number of articles published regarding the XCP Technology used on SONY BMG content protected CDs. This component is not malicious and does not compromise security. However to alleviate any concerns that users may have about the program posing potential security vulnerabilities, this update has been released to enable users to remove this component from their computers.'"
Posted: Thu, 3rd Nov 2005, 12:31pm

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Serpent

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schwar wrote:

The PS3 sucks
- You can't say that about something which isn't out yet and appears the be the most powerful games console ever made. Just stating that something you say is an "opinion" doesn't mean you can just type random rubbish and feel protected. The Xbox360 and the PS3 both look like they are packing some stunning power but most of the games look like the same old stuff with really flashy graphics (bet the first games don't look half as good as many people are expecting).
Just because the hardware is good doesn't mean it is a good console. You PC gamers look at consoles for power, or so it seems. Maybe he thinks none of the games are looking any good at all so far. I think his "PS3 sucks" statement is a little harsh since it is so far away, but bringing hardware capabilities into the mix is not the way to go. I know this topic is more about hardware, but swg33k was clearly not talking about hardware, because if he was, he would have nothing but great specs and a controller concept to base is opinion on.
Posted: Thu, 3rd Nov 2005, 1:19pm

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drspin98

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Every company, EVERY company is motivated by one thing. Making money. Anyone who thinks otherwise is fooling themselves, or the company is out of business. Some do this with the long haul in mind, by providing customer service, some are not so far sighted. In the internet age customer service has taken a way back seat to price.
Posted: Thu, 3rd Nov 2005, 2:09pm

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jotoki

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I understand this only affects the USA according to a statement I read from the people that actually supply the software, Also a patch had now been made available to stop the $sys$ file hiding activities. A lot of this is motivated by money and thr DRM stuff on Blu Ray is motivated not by Sony but by the movie Studios. There was a story a few weeks ago on www.pcpro.com about this and how Sony has learned it's lessons from the VHS/BETAMAX format war which they conclusively lost despite having the superior technology so they are making sure the Studios are onside buy giving them the copy protection scheme they want. We all know how draconian the studios are being right now so this should be no surprise.
Posted: Thu, 3rd Nov 2005, 2:47pm

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TommyB

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drspin98 wrote:

Every company, EVERY company is motivated by one thing. Making money. Anyone who thinks otherwise is fooling themselves, or the company is out of business. Some do this with the long haul in mind, by providing customer service, some are not so far sighted. In the internet age customer service has taken a way back seat to price.
Replace "EVERY" with EA, and you've got it bang on!

Valve, the developers of HL2, are an example of a team who genuinely have passion for the game they're creating. I know this because I've read interviews with members of their team. Unfortunately though, you are correct, 'money' is still a motivation for everyone.

By the way, if the film industry like the DRM protection found on Blu-Ray, they won't have anything to do with Gate's HD-DVD. All titles will be released on whatever format they choose.
Posted: Thu, 3rd Nov 2005, 3:29pm

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Kid

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Lots of companies are out to simply make a good product and make some cash at the same time rather than being greedy. Not everyone is out to make as much profit as possible at any cost, that isn't the only reason to be in business. Maybe things are different in America.
Posted: Thu, 3rd Nov 2005, 3:30pm

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A Pickle

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Unfortunately though, you are correct, 'money' is still a motivation for everyone.
I don't think that's a bad thing.

Bill Gates being the richest man in the world doesn't bother me, he and Steve Ballmer just began to make $1,000,000.00 a year this year. Even if they are really rich, they've marketed a product which the public has purchased and... quite frankly, I think they've done a good service to the computing world.

Having a lot of money, or at least, striving for it, isn't a bad thing. In my opinion.
Posted: Thu, 3rd Nov 2005, 3:36pm

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jotoki

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a lot more studios are currently backing Blu ray than HD-DVD. It's looking like it might end up HD-DVD in PC's and Blue ray in the conventional player but there is a way to go yet. Yes some studios might release on both formats initally to cover their backs but the truth is they prefer Blu Rays version of DRM. Not saying it's right, just saying that Blu Ray has a bigger studio backing and mainly coz it gives them what they want, be it right or wrong. Its the HD-DVD guys that want the unified format, Sony doesn't need to go for that coz right now they feel they hold all the cards, this coupled with the PS3 having Blu Ray does give a feeling that right now Sony doesn't need to negotiate with anyone. At the moment they're right too. I dont like Sony's proprietary approach to formats any more than the next guy but if they produce the best kit for the money of something I'm looking for I'll still buy Sony. Be interesting to see who the eventual winner is but Sony have learned a hell of a lot from the betamax thing.
Posted: Thu, 3rd Nov 2005, 3:58pm

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Kid

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A Pickle wrote:

Unfortunately though, you are correct, 'money' is still a motivation for everyone.
I don't think that's a bad thing.

Bill Gates being the richest man in the world doesn't bother me, he and Steve Ballmer just began to make $1,000,000.00 a year this year. Even if they are really rich, they've marketed a product which the public has purchased and... quite frankly, I think they've done a good service to the computing world.

Having a lot of money, or at least, striving for it, isn't a bad thing. In my opinion.
Bill Gates makes a lot more than $1M a year. He just raised his MS salary to that but still makes way more from shares and other investments.

Having or striving for money in itself is not bad. What is bad is doing it at someone else's expense. At the worst I think it is sickening that people can sit there with millions while there are people who are worked to death and/or starving.

With regards to DRM on movies and music. The artists arnt getting all this money, its going to rich investors to line their pockets at the viewers expense. Why are we deprived of the experience of some things because we have to pick and choose what we can afford to watch/listen to when they cost a minute fraction of the price to make?

Everyone is putting this all on Sony, you have to realise that Sony Music is a seperate entity and the other music distributors are just as bad.
Posted: Thu, 3rd Nov 2005, 4:02pm

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Vega70

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jotoki wrote:

thr DRM stuff on Blu Ray is motivated not by Sony but by the movie Studios.
I thought Sony IS the Movie studios !!
Posted: Thu, 3rd Nov 2005, 4:37pm

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drspin98

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Never did I mention greedy or as much profit as possible. Companies need to make money. That is not exclusive to this country. Although that is one on the many things that made it the most powerful nation on Earth.
Posted: Thu, 3rd Nov 2005, 4:38pm

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Kid

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drspin98 wrote:

Never did I mention greedy or as much profit as possible. Companies need to make money. That is not exclusive to this country. Although that is one on the many things that made it the most powerful nation on Earth.
Strange, I thought that was China.
Posted: Thu, 3rd Nov 2005, 4:45pm

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A Pickle

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Everyone is putting this all on Sony, you have to realise that Sony Music is a seperate entity and the other music distributors are just as bad.
Agreed, wholeheartedly. How many people here own a PlayStation? I'm pretty sure ALL of Sony isn't all evil and bad, either.

Why are we deprived of the experience of some things because we have to pick and choose what we can afford to watch/listen to when they cost a minute fraction of the price to make?


That's always going to happen, though, I believe DVD's and CD's should be sold at much lower prices. Of course, this can be pinned on the retail outlets that sell CD's just as much.

What is bad is doing it at someone else's expense. At the worst I think it is sickening that people can sit there with millions while there are people who are worked to death and/or starving.
What you have to grasp, though, is that, as cold as it may sound, most of the starving people out there have contributed, either directly or indirectly, to their social situation.

People in third world countries are, essentially, allowing dictators who spend national funding on three new palaces to continue ruling. Do you realize Saddam Hussein had constructed 200 palaces all over Iraq? Think of the money, infrastructure and public works that went into those palaces that could have much better and more efficiently been put to use elsewhere.

Poor people here in the West are somewhat responsible for their situation as well - there's no "caste" system that denies them the right to go and look for a job. There are a lot of rags-to-riches stories out there, and there are even more rags-to-middle class true stories out there. My Archaeology professor, for one. There's nothing preventing poor people from making income, except their own desires and, in some cases, education.

Lastly, I feel Bill Gates and Michael Dell deserve to be where they are. Hard work comes in many different flavors, and while they didn't till the lands day and night, they did go amidst a world of bigger corporations to start their own enterprises, and did so successfully. I believe also that, in doing so, they've done the public a service.

I don't by any means propose our society is perfect, but I'm sure glad to be living here in the capitalist corner of the world, promoting competition and technological growth in a free society.

With regards to DRM on movies and music. The artists arnt getting all this money, its going to rich investors to line their pockets at the viewers expense.
Not rich? <-- That is Eminem's house. He is an "artist," and he gets plenty, and I assure you, plenty of money. I would not be, in the least bit surprised if he has more money than many, if not most Wall Street investors.
Posted: Thu, 3rd Nov 2005, 5:29pm

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Kid

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A Pickle wrote:


What is bad is doing it at someone else's expense. At the worst I think it is sickening that people can sit there with millions while there are people who are worked to death and/or starving.
What you have to grasp, though, is that, as cold as it may sound, most of the starving people out there have contributed, either directly or indirectly, to their social situation.

People in third world countries are, essentially, allowing dictators who spend national funding on three new palaces to continue ruling. Do you realize Saddam Hussein had constructed 200 palaces all over Iraq? Think of the money, infrastructure and public works that went into those palaces that could have much better and more efficiently been put to use elsewhere.

Poor people here in the West are somewhat responsible for their situation as well - there's no "caste" system that denies them the right to go and look for a job. There are a lot of rags-to-riches stories out there, and there are even more rags-to-middle class true stories out there. My Archaeology professor, for one. There's nothing preventing poor people from making income, except their own desires and, in some cases, education.
This is complete rubbish. People can't help themselves because in many cases they do not have the means or in the case of iraq, they'd be put to death.

Many people on our streets are there because they do not have the ability to function in our society and need to be cared for but no one has bothered. Or because they were never given the chance to get an education.

Plenty of people work hard and get nowhere through no fault of their own. It is a society of greed that does not reward them or help those less fortunate than the ones who are given opportunities.


With regards to DRM on movies and music. The artists arnt getting all this money, its going to rich investors to line their pockets at the viewers expense.
Not rich? <-- That is Eminem's house. He is an "artist," and he gets plenty, and I assure you, plenty of money. I would not be, in the least bit surprised if he has more money than many, if not most Wall Street investors.
OK, now compare that to the board of his record company. You will see that each of them has hundreds of times over what he does.
Posted: Thu, 3rd Nov 2005, 7:22pm

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A Pickle

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This is complete rubbish. People can't help themselves because in many cases they do not have the means or in the case of iraq, they'd be put to death.
And yet, somehow, revolutions take place elsewhere in the world.

Many people on our streets are there because they do not have the ability to function in our society and need to be cared for but no one has bothered.
Many, yes. Most, no. Most people on our streets are more than capable of ascertaining something of a low-end but paying job.

Or because they were never given the chance to get an education.
You mean the free education we're all given from kindergarten to high school? It might interest you to know, Michael Dell dropped out of college in his freshman year.

Plenty of people work hard and get nowhere through no fault of their own.
True. Plenty of people work hard, and, while the may get nowhere, they are getting food on the table, a roof over their heads and cash for other things. Success isn't guaranteed, working hard should but doesn't always catapult you to better and higher jobs. However, the opportunity to do so is there, and generally speaking, only hard workers are able to take advantage of that.

However, in this free market society, one is able to very easily quit a job in favor of another one. We live in a liquid market, no one is cast in stone as to where they are and forever shall be for the rest of their lives. My grandpa was a poor Puerto Rican when he was first born, now he's 96 years old and my parents pay none of his retirement money. He has worked hard and earned ample funds to live even in retirement, to his ripe age of ninety-six and beyond.

It is a society of greed that does not reward them or help those less fortunate than the ones who are given opportunities.
Opportunity is "given" to about as many people as flight is given to people. The opportunity is there, either one can sit and idly watch while others take advantage of it, or they can work hard and take some of that opportunity for themselves. Respectfully, I'm not a rich member of society, but I damn sure aim to be one.

Welcome to capitalism. The driving motive in this society is profit, and I have yet to see any decent explanation as to why that's a bad thing in and of itself. We strive for profit, there are plenty of other places in this world that do not, and, our society doesn't condemn anyone from leaving it.

OK, now compare that to the board of his record company. You will see that each of them has hundreds of times over what he does.
And yet, I still fail to see how that's bad. They must have just been born to the top of that company, no hard work was involved in accelerating up to the top.

Fin.
-Pikl
Posted: Thu, 3rd Nov 2005, 7:58pm

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Kid

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A Pickle wrote:

Or because they were never given the chance to get an education.
You mean the free education we're all given from kindergarten to high school? It might interest you to know, Michael Dell dropped out of college in his freshman year.
Not everyone gets a free education. The assumption that because it is offered to everyone, it is available to everyone is flawed. Also, highlighting Michael Dell just shows that success is available to a few lucky people however skilled they are or hard they work.


It is a society of greed that does not reward them or help those less fortunate than the ones who are given opportunities.
Opportunity is "given" to about as many people as flight is given to people. The opportunity is there, either one can sit and idly watch while others take advantage of it, or they can work hard and take some of that opportunity for themselves. Respectfully, I'm not a rich member of society, but I damn sure aim to be one.
Well good luck to you, you will need it. Let's see you look back on this conversation when you are old and poor and your hard work didn't get you anywhere and you question the system rather than blindly repeating whats been drummed into you at school.

Welcome to capitalism. The driving motive in this society is profit, and I have yet to see any decent explanation as to why that's a bad thing in and of itself. We strive for profit, there are plenty of other places in this world that do not, and, our society doesn't condemn anyone from leaving it.
Money is just a figure. The driving motive in society is happiness and reward for work done. When money doesn't relate to how much work you put in and leaves a select few with their every desire while most not so lucky people get to do as well as the lazy people and have a hard life, then it is bad.


OK, now compare that to the board of his record company. You will see that each of them has hundreds of times over what he does.
And yet, I still fail to see how that's bad. They must have just been born to the top of that company, no hard work was involved in accelerating up to the top.
Exactly. In your sarcasm you have hit the nail on the head. Every one of the board members of eminems recording company come from wealthy families and were born into money. They never had to do a hard days work.
Posted: Thu, 3rd Nov 2005, 9:22pm

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Fill

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Heh..Sorry I just personally so far think Sony is making a mistake with the PS3...I just can't seem to adapt to it.
Posted: Thu, 3rd Nov 2005, 9:57pm

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TommyB

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Here's a clever idea.

They release HD-DVD or Blu-Ray but just DON'T provide consumers with the technology to write to either format. Simply don't bring out Blu-Ray or HD-DVD Writers. That way, there won't actually be as much piracy. Having said that, it's too late now as they failed to do this with DVDs. Still, it seems like a good idea to me.
Posted: Thu, 3rd Nov 2005, 10:02pm

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A Pickle

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Not everyone gets a free education. The assumption that because it is offered to everyone, it is available to everyone is flawed.
How, might I ask?

Also, highlighting Michael Dell just shows that success is available to a few lucky people however skilled they are or hard they work.
Somehow I'd think Michael Dell would say otherwise.

Well good luck to you, you will need it. Let's see you look back on this conversation when you are old and poor and your hard work didn't get you anywhere and you question the system rather than blindly repeating whats been drummed into you at school.
I kindly ask you to explain why 90% of the successful people in this world went to college. Most people live in this society just fine, poverty is well below 50%, as of 2004 it was 12.7%. Can you explain how the other 87.3% somehow managed to be successful in a society that apparently excludes opportunity?

Money is just a figure. The driving motive in society is happiness and reward for work done.
An excellent point, of course, to some extend the phrase, "Money can't buy happiness," is untrue. Through money, people are able to purchase various forms of entertainment in order to keep them happy.

When money doesn't relate to how much work you put in and leaves a select few with their every desire while most not so lucky people get to do as well as the lazy people and have a hard life, then it is bad.
To some extent, I agree with that. Hard work here should earn as much as hard work there, and catching a ball for $5 million doesn't count. In some areas our society's "priorities" are gravely misplaced.

On the same token, however, I disagree that CEO's of companies are lazy people. Without question, some may be corrupt, but lazy? I beg to differ. I don't think Bill Gates is lazy. I certainly couldn't start a software company in the wash of much larger ones seeking to eradicate additional competition, and then

Every one of the board members of eminems recording company come from wealthy families and were born into money. They never had to do a hard days work.
I was hoping you'd get to that. It is, unfortunately, true, that a lot of people are born into money, however, it is also true that most people aren't. I guarantee you a conservative figure of how many people work their way up to the top in businesses is about 80%. I'm willing to bet few, if any CEO's of any major corporations were born and named Chairman of Oracle.

In your criticisms of investors, you're right in that they want money. And they get this through corporations, particularly corporations that are doing well. They aren't so stupid as to think that some dumb Paris Hilton can lead Hewlett Packard, no, they want someone who has worked their way through the business and knows it very well. It's a very simple concept. Paris Hilton, a complete ditz, would not know how to properly run an international corporation so as to make it do profitably well. The investors don't profit. Someone who knows the company's strategies, or knows the company's products, will know, at least, certainly better than Paris Hilton, how to guide the company so as to increase his paycheck and remain employed. A successful CEO is unlikely to be terminated by the board of directors, because they make money if he makes money. If they make money, they're happy -- he stays employed.

I will once again reiterate -- our society isn't perfect, but it's damn good. I agree with the overall majority of our society's internal operation. Business rules.
Posted: Fri, 4th Nov 2005, 3:52pm

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jerryfastcash

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http://news.yahoo.com/s/nf/20051103/tc_nf/39083
Posted: Fri, 4th Nov 2005, 6:13pm

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TommyB

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Of course they are. What they have done is completely illegal. If no message pops up warning you of the software after inserting one of their CDs, then it's illegal. I suppose a note on the CD packet would do, but if they don't notify you, it's completely illegal.
Posted: Fri, 4th Nov 2005, 11:01pm

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DPUMA8

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The DRM stuff pisses me off. It really makes me mad when I burn the CD to my computer, then I try to put it on the iPod and it won't work because it is protected.

My computer crashed but I had my music saved on a DVD disc. So when I fixed my computer, I had to redo all the burning otherwise I couldn't listen to MY music. So after doing that for awhile, I gave up and downloaded music off the internet. It is so nice now. Buying CDs for me is too much of a hastle to keep doing this.