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Apple release bootcamp: MacOSX and Windows on one machine!

Posted: Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 3:54pm

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cantaclaro

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http://www.apple.com/macosx/bootcamp/

You are all out of excuses Wintel folk.

In other news Michael Dell just crapped his pants.
Posted: Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 3:58pm

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Simon K Jones

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Apple wrote:

Word to the Wise

Windows running on a Mac is like Windows running on a PC. That means it’ll be subject to the same attacks that plague the Windows world. So be sure to keep it updated with the latest Microsoft Windows security fixes.
Hehe. Good ol' Apple. Gotta love their hyperbolic marketing department.


Read about this earlier today, very interesting development. Will be interesting to see how this affects the industry. I can't help but wonder if this signals the beginning of the end for Mac OS?
Posted: Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 4:02pm

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Kid

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Hehe so now Apples are based on PC architecture and running PC operating systems, what was the advantage to having an Apple again?

For the Apple lovers out there I would personally be worried that this is another step in becoming yet another run of the mill brand of PC.

Apple were pretty much forced into this by hackers who had already made it unofficially possible. I guess the move to make some PR out of it is good but I don't think Dell will be worried quite yet.
Posted: Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 4:03pm

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Joshua Davies

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I think this can only help Mac OS X - why would it be the beginning of the end?

Maybe people want Macs and the great software which is Mac only but are put off that they can't have the best games performance and 3D applications - this fixes those issues!

Dell have been trying to licence Mac OS X for their machines for over a year now, maybe this brings that one step closer as well.

There is also some other Mac OS X software coming out soon which allows real OS virtualisation to run multiple operating systems at the same time which is cool.
Posted: Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 4:08pm

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Kid

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Mmm but if the software is the advantage then why not simply make it for PC and open yourself up to a much wider market?
Posted: Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 4:11pm

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cantaclaro

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Apple will never switch to Windoze as their primary OS. This solution simply makes it easier for people to switch to Apple hardware without all the excuses.

Apple has no reason to license anything, their marketshare has grown tremendously in the last few years without this option, what makes you all think it will stop now?

I'm not sure about in the UK but here in the States public opinion about Dell has fallen sharply over the last year with their shipping most of the US jobs to Asia and awful tech support.
Posted: Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 4:14pm

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Simon K Jones

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Cross-pollinating the userbases like this can lead to only one consumer response, eventually - "Why can't I just do all this on one operating system?"

OS X users will wonder why they can't have access to the cool games/etc available to XP users. XP users will wonder why they can't have a slick interface and great graphics/editing apps that are available to Mac users.

It'll be interesting to see the industry response to the demand for a unified system.
Posted: Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 4:14pm

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Joshua Davies

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Rating: +1

Kid:
1) Because most of Apple's software is only so good because its built upon the building blocks of Mac OS X. The same reason why games are so good when built on Direct X technologies. There would be no way to make Apple software as good under any other current operating system without changing everything about the software and supporting cruddy Windows standards.

2) Because Apple has agreements in place with both Microsoft and Adobe which would not allow it to do so.

Tarn :
I don't think that'll be the case as most PC users will not have the option. Unless you buy from Apple (or maybe Dell in the future but I doubt this will happen) the only option you will have is Windows - just like it is now. For this reason things will remain as they have always been.

People who can only afford one machine or don't have a large budget in most cases pick Windows - its been this way for years. Unless you need something dedicated that the Mac is very good at (video editing, music etc) in which case you might buy a low end Mac - which is still pretty expensive.

Those with a bit more money will buy more expensive hardware and maybe not have to pick between Mac OS X and Windows anymore. If Dell are not allowed to take on Mac OS X then this doesn't really change anything at all. All it will mean is that Mac users can run Windows faster than they used to be able to under emulation.

It might convert a few people (probably not even 1% of market share) who like Mac designs/hardware and have an interest in Mac OS X. But if you only know Windows/Windows software and like computer games (that covers just about every PC person out there) I doubt you'll be convinced to swap to some overpriced but attractive hardware made by a company who only support Windows as an added feature.

Last edited Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 4:30pm; edited 2 times in total.

Posted: Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 4:20pm

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cantaclaro

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http://digg.com/apple/Apple_Boot_Camp_Public_Beta_Announced,_Part_of_10.5_Leopard

There is the comment section to the Digg link which features over 3000 diggs, 400 comments (100 of them are people stating that this was the final hurdle for making the switch.)

Wintel users have been craving this, its proven in the link above.

Apple is about to sell a lot of computers.
Posted: Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 6:08pm

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A Pickle

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cantaclaro wrote:

You are all out of excuses Wintel folk.
Yeah! Now I can buy a way more expensive computer and dual-boot Windows XP and Mac OS X with relatively dismal hardware horsepower...

...or I can buy a much cheaper, much faster Dell Precision M90 mobile workstation (read: notebook) which comes with a 512 MB workstation graphics card, up to 4 GB of RAM and all kinds of other goodies.

cantaclaro wrote:

In other news Michael Dell just crapped his pants.
Dell just sold out of it's $10,000 XPS Renegade machines, and is the single, largest computer company mankind has ever seen. Why, again, is Michael Dell crapping his pants?

I might also add -- Dell is much higher on Intel's priority list than Apple is, that's why people could buy a Dell Inspiron E1705 with the 2.16 GHz Core Duo from day one, whilst the first MacBooks only cranked at 2.0 GHz.

cantaclaro wrote:

Apple will never switch to Windoze as their primary OS. This solution simply makes it easier for people to switch to Apple hardware without all the excuses.
Why do you think that all computer users really want to use a Mac, but use Windows for some reason? Would it kill you to hear someone stand in front of you and say, "I would rather use Windows than Mac OS X" ?

Here's a world-shaker for you: I'd rather have my Dell running Windows XP than any Mac.

cantaclaro wrote:

Wintel users have been craving this, its proven in the link above.
I have five reasons as to why I'm staying with the PC:

  1. Conroe.
  2. Vista.
  3. PC's are cheaper, IE, I won't pay out the nose for a computer, and then tack on another $150 for a copy of XP Pro.
  4. All my current software will run on that cheaper PC.
  5. A generally less obnoxious userbase.


Finally, I'd like to add that, while I've had nothing but miserable experience on Macs yet perfect experience on PC's... I'm not going out of my way to post why you darned "Mac users" should make the switch because of some, ultimately insignificant event.
Posted: Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 6:24pm

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cantaclaro

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A Pickle wrote:


I might also add -- Dell is much higher on Intel's priority list than Apple is, that's why people could buy a Dell Inspiron E1705 with the 2.16 GHz Core Duo from day one, whilst the first MacBooks only cranked at 2.0 GHz.
I think you might want to check your facts again. The MacBook Pro runs at up to 2.16 GHz as well.

Everything else you said is your opinion, and while I believe it is flawed we'll leave it at that.

Just because you don't want Mac OS X doesn't mean that other people without a Windoze logo in their avatar wouldn't. Just wait till all the little Windonians get in the boards after school. We'll see how many people are now ready to make the switch.
Posted: Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 7:01pm

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Joshua Davies

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I might also add -- Dell is much higher on Intel's priority list than Apple is, that's why people could buy a Dell Inspiron E1705 with the 2.16 GHz Core Duo from day one, whilst the first MacBooks only cranked at 2.0 GHz.
This is indeed incorrect, but then it can be expected with the foamy tone of your post A Pickle. Just because cantaclaro suggest some users would want to switch when given the best of both worlds doesn't mean he is insisting ALL Windows users secretly want a Mac.

cantaclaro is also correct that the MacBook Pro was 2.16GHz from the start.

Apple are the 3rd largest PC maker in the world and were the FIRST PC maker to get the Core Duo in volume - it was part of the agreement when they switched to Intel and it angered Dell quite a bit. Also remember that Apple is a FAR more powerful, popular and stylish brand that Dell has ever been, therefore they are probably just as important to Intel as Dell - currently even more so I expect. After all its not like Dell can jump ship to anyone, AMD didn't have the volume to even be considered by Apple so they wouldn't have a chance making enough CPUs for Dell.

A generally less obnoxious userbase.
You proved that wrong for a start with you post.

Here's a world-shaker for you: I'd rather have my Dell running Windows XP than any Mac.
Seems many people who buy from Dell think differently, and Dell themselves, hence they are so interested in licencing Mac OS X...

I love our Dell XPS Gen 2, its a really great laptop. Only problem with it is that it looks like a big cheap plastic and metal brick. The same can be said of my step-bros Dell XPS workstation and even my 24" Dell LCD screen. Dell do make decent machines, they just don't do decent design.

P.S. Why do you think Conroe is a reason to stay away from Macs, it'll be what powers the next Mac Pro.
Posted: Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 7:49pm

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cantaclaro

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schwar wrote:

P.S. Why do you think Conroe is a reason to stay away from Macs, it'll be what powers the next Mac Pro.
Did schwar just let some insider information about the name of the new Powermac slip?
Posted: Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 9:57pm

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TimmyD

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cantaclaro wrote:

Everything else you said is your opinion, and while I believe it is flawed we'll leave it at that.
Amen.

I think this step will only be good news for Apple. Current Windows users hesitaint about the switch now can flip with ease, the ability to have both on the Mac will make the transition MUCH smoother. So yeah, as someone said, Apple's about to sell a lot of computers. Soltaire anyone?

P.S: PLUS, as I just remembered, 10.5 Leopard is sounding incredible even now, so Leopard+Mactels+Boot Camp=

TimmyD

Last edited Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 10:13pm; edited 2 times in total.

Posted: Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 9:58pm

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Dalemations

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I don't think this signals 'the beginning of the end for the Mac OS'. On the contrary, most people (those who've used Macs anyway) would concede that the Mac OS is superior to Windows. Well, let's be honest, what OS isn't! biggrin

I think this will give people the incentive to buy a Mac and use the native OS where possible but have the 'security' of being able to run windows and any of the related software.

I'm an XP user btw. But having used Amiga's for years I know how incredibly slow and flabby the Windows OS is. I couldn't believe it actually. With todays processors Windows should be FAST. It aint! I would buy a Mac in an instant if it meant it gave me the choice to use both systems in one unit and whatever software I wanted. Great.
Posted: Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 11:08pm

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Serpent

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Wait, does this mean (if I had an Intel Processor) I could play any game/run any app a PC user could, along with all my Mac stuff on one machine?
Posted: Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 11:27pm

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Hendo

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I think this is a good move for Apple and great for many of its customers. I wonder, though, and maybe I'm just being cynical, if Apple still would have done this if the recent XP hack hadn't made so much publicity.

I can imagine that many Intel Mac users will take advantage of this feature so that they can run Windows programs (probably games).

Serpent, I don't think you could run any game, because it would still depend on your system spec -- e.g. what graphics card is required by the game, and what GPU your Intel Mac would have. But as I understand it, with the required spec, yes you could run the game.

But, really, people seem to be getting far too excited about having to reboot their computer in order to run an application. smile The virtualisation stuff sounds promising, though.

As a Windows user who doesn't need to run any Apple-only software, I certainly won't be ditching my generic PC hardware for more expensive (and as schwar mentioned, generally over-priced) Mac hardware.

I think my attitude is typical of most Windows users, and hence, all these prophecies about the death of Dell etc. have been greatly exaggerated. smile
Posted: Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 12:00am

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Alex Reeve

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Apple wrote:

EFI and BIOS
Macs use an ultra-modern industry standard technology called EFI to handle booting. Sadly, Windows XP, and even the upcoming Vista, are stuck in the 1980s with old-fashioned BIOS. But with Boot Camp, the Mac can operate smoothly in both centuries.
That made me laugh!

As long as it doesn't stop developers producing OSX versions of multiformat software, I'm all for it.

I'd like a PC to run 3ds Max & Softimage XSI, but space and connection hassles have put me off. This should be a nice alternative. (though I won't be rushing out to buy an intel mac for a few years.)

I knew when I opened this thread there would be a classic bit of A Pickle Dell ranting/evangelising, and he didn't let me down. I hope you're on a good commission sir...
Posted: Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 12:15am

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Garrison

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Now now girls, you are BOTH pretty! biggrin
Posted: Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 1:29am

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Fill

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Garrison32 wrote:

Now now girls, you are BOTH pretty! biggrin
Hahaha seriously!

Well to me it depends if Windows will work well if not better on a Mac than a PC.
Posted: Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 1:45am

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A Pickle

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schwar wrote:

cantaclaro is also correct that the MacBook Pro was 2.16GHz from the start.
I'm compelled to contest this. As I recall, it was shipped in 1.83 GHz and 2.0 GHz versions, initially - and then upped the processor speeds freely, however, the 2.16 GHz chip was not available until they did that.

Source.

schwar wrote:

Apple are the 3rd largest PC maker in the world...
I beg to differ.

schwar wrote:

...and were the FIRST PC maker to get the Core Duo in volume - it was part of the agreement when they switched to Intel and it angered Dell quite a bit.
I'd like to see a source where you got that... and I feel inclined to point out that Dell's Inspiron E1705 laptops shipped first and Apple very shortly after announcing the MacBook Pro warned of chip shortages.

schwar wrote:

Also remember that Apple is a FAR more powerful, popular and stylish brand that Dell has ever been...
Powerful, popular? No. I can almost guarantee that more Dells are sold than Macs, even as far as home and office use are concerned. I have to concede on the style point, Apple trounces everyone else in this regard.

schwar wrote:

therefore they are probably just as important to Intel as Dell - currently even more so I expect.
Given that Intel probably makes more money off of Dell than they do off of Apple, I highly doubt it.

schwar wrote:

After all its not like Dell can jump ship to anyone, AMD didn't have the volume to even be considered by Apple so they wouldn't have a chance making enough CPUs for Dell.
Correct... that's the primary reasoning on my statement regarding Dell's position on Intel's priority list.

scwar wrote:

A Pickle wrote:

You proved that wrong for a start with you post.
You proved that wrong for a start with you post.
Yet the tone of both the title and the first post of this thread goes completely unnoticed?

schwar wrote:

Seems many people who buy from Dell think differently...
They're allowed to. I wasn't talking about anyone but myself - a Wintel user by choice. That seems to send a horrific chill down the spine of certain people, for whatever reason. I have no spite towards Macs, in fact in my search for a laptop I briefly considered a MacBook Pro - but I think my first Mac will have to be something a little cheaper, plus I want a faster graphics card.

schwar wrote:

and Dell themselves, hence they are so interested in licencing Mac OS X...
I think it'd be great if Apple would open it's operating system to the market, and honestly I haven't a clue why they don't. I, personally, am not terribly interested... but as you point out, there are many who are.

schwar wrote:

I love our Dell XPS Gen 2, its a really great laptop. Only problem with it is that it looks like a big cheap plastic and metal brick. The same can be said of my step-bros Dell XPS workstation and even my 24" Dell LCD screen. Dell do make decent machines, they just don't do decent design.
That's a matter of opinion. Personally, I like their desktops and I like the laptops of theirs that follow the Inspiron E1705-like design. I agree, I don't particularly like the XPS laptops. XPS desktops are beautiful in my opinion, particularly with the LED-lit bezel.

Mind you, I'm not saying that Apple makes bad looking stuff, quite the contrary. I think Apple is second only to VoodooPC in terms of design, the only setback is that they're very expensive relative to their horsepower. A Mobility Radeon X1600 just... doesn't do it. I'm not looking for a freakin' SLI laptop... but an X1600 is just a little underpowered for my needs and requirments.

schwar wrote:

P.S. Why do you think Conroe is a reason to stay away from Macs, it'll be what powers the next Mac Pro.
Once again, I'd think Conroe would be available for PC's a little earlier... also, any Conroe in an Mac will be available at the price Macs are typically offered at.

Dalemations wrote:

I'm an XP user btw. But having used Amiga's for years I know how incredibly slow and flabby the Windows OS is. I couldn't believe it actually. With todays processors Windows should be FAST.
Mac OS X uses more system resources than Windows XP, just... thought I'd letcha know...

Alex Reeve wrote:

I knew when I opened this thread there would be a classic bit of A Pickle Dell ranting/evangelising, and he didn't let me down. I hope you're on a good commission sir...
I think it's funny how everyone completely overlooked the first post which is, however you look at it, complete flamebait. What would happen if I posted an equivalently anti-Apple post?

Last edited Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 4:34am; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 1:57am

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er-no

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a) The above post hurt my face.

b) Windows is retarded.
Posted: Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 2:03am

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sfbmovieco

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I like using both PC's and my Mac....

In my head, it comes down the facts....

Do you want a Hyundai- A cheap car that will get you from A to B and last for 100,000 miles or so...Or do you want a Mercedes, a car that is stylish, sleek, and is just an overall better performer for what it was specifically built for?

The two machines suit people differently. No one should take it personally...A Pickle, if you want to start an anti Apple post, go ahead. Just please stop crying about this thread like it's life or death. Dell's good. Apple's good. If you don't agree, say your piece and move on.
Posted: Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 2:16am

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Hybrid-Halo

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Hmm, what I really want is to run MacOSX dual boot on my PC Hardware. And guys...

Why can't we all just get along!?
Posted: Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 2:24am

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DigiSm89

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Hybrid-Halo wrote:

Hmm, what I really want is to run MacOSX dual boot on my PC Hardware.
Ditto. I'm not going to cough up extra money to buy a Mac when I already have a good PC.

I'd rather dual boot with what I have.

Last edited Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 2:24am; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 2:24am

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er-no

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Hybrid-Halo wrote:

Hmm, what I really want is to run MacOSX dual boot on my PC Hardware. And guys...

Why can't we all just get along!?
Most guys like girls.
Others like windows.
Posted: Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 2:33am

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TimmyD

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er-no wrote:

a) The above post hurt my face.

b) Windows is retarded.
Amen.

er-no wrote:

Hybrid-Halo wrote:

Hmm, what I really want is to run MacOSX dual boot on my PC Hardware. And guys...

Why can't we all just get along!?
Most guys like girls.
Others like windows.
Aaaand Amen.

A Pickle: If you have a point to make, make it, then leave this topic. Many of your statements are based purely on opinion, and clearly some responses are instigating a rather intense feeling of hate? perhaps? You won't walk away from this winning, as determined as you are to defend Windows and what you've said, there are people just as determined to oppose it, so I'd say its in your best interest to make your final point and leave.
Posted: Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 2:35am

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Serpent

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A Pickle wrote:


schwar wrote:

therefore they are probably just as important to Intel as Dell - currently even more so I expect.
Given that Intel probably makes more money off of Dell than they do off of Apple, I highly doubt it.
Er, they've had a little bit more of a jump with Dell, try since their existence. Apple is gaining poularity with the new price to power ratio (compared to past years) of the iMacs (this can even apply to prosumers) and the Mac Minis and their iPod craze. Apple stocks are going up a LOT. I think the prices on the new Macs are very reasonable and I think the price I paid on my PowerMac was well worth it for the software the provide (OSX, production suite, etc.)

A Pickle wrote:


I think it's funny how everyone completely overlooked the first post which is, however you look at it, complete flamebait. What would happen if I posted an equivalently anti-Apple post?
Canta is clearly joking, he always does that (maybe he's serious, but he meant it in no offensive/hostile (for lack of better word) way. He also doesn't represent the entire Mac userbase. I have seen countless Windows fans do the same thing as you. There are a few Mac fans who get a little fanboyish (TimmyD...) but you get the idea. Schwar is speaking generally using your post as an example, you spoke of one guy who is clearly joking around. This is just from a sectators POV of course. razz

I think this whole XP and Mac on one machine is awesome, and gives me no reason to buy a PC any more. My next computer will probably be a MacBook for college running XP and OSX. I can't believe finally a solution to my dreams (games and freeware) has come true in the best way possible.
Posted: Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 2:40am

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er-no

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to be honest.

In 2001 Apple stopped aliens taking over the world.

In 2003 Windows let them back in.

Apple is still fighting for humanity and Dell are relocating everything to India, where even if you ask them to help you fix your Dell, they offer you a new Dell and put you through to the sales hotline.
Posted: Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 2:41am

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TimmyD

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Serpent wrote:

There are a few Mac fans who get a little fanboyish (TimmyD...) but you get the idea.
I'm seeing a doctor for that. wink

Turns out the MacBook Pro STILL ships with 2.0 GHz, but it is upgradeable to 2.16:


http://www.apple.com/macbookpro/whatsinside.html#store
http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore?family=MacBookPro
Posted: Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 2:47am

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Hybrid-Halo

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er-no wrote:


In 2001 Apple stopped aliens taking over the world.
In 2003 Windows let them back in.
Hehehe.

It's amusing how fired up people get when their investments are involved. Both operating systems have their uses, both their pros and cons. Anyone unable to see this and having to delve into meaningless statistics or sales figures to try and proove any point simply to defend their choice of hardware/software is somewhat a sad case in my books.

Since when was best selling really the best, most used the most efficient? As much as a soft spot I have for Apple, My windows install works just fine. I don't see what all the fuss is about really, if both systems become available by whatever means then hell - that's a good thing.
Posted: Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 2:54am

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er-no

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Heh.
That was kinda my point.

(99% of statistics are merely made up statistics that have been statistically made up from statistics)
Posted: Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 2:58am

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TimmyD

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Hehe serpent, heres an equation to help you understand my addiction:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFlcqWQVVuU

Timmy=Boy
Timmy's iMac and everything Apple=Nintendo 64

Theres some perspective for you smile
Posted: Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 3:15am

Post 34 of 86

Hybrid-Halo

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TimmyD wrote:

Hehe serpent, heres an equation to help you understand my addiction:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFlcqWQVVuU

Timmy=Boy
Timmy's iMac and everything Apple=Nintendo 64

Theres some perspective for you smile
http://n64kiddjskillz.ytmnd.com/

How's that for perspective?

Last edited Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 3:21am; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 3:16am

Post 35 of 86

Hendo

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A Pickle wrote:

Hendo wrote:

I'm an XP user btw. But having used Amiga's for years I know how incredibly slow and flabby the Windows OS is. I couldn't believe it actually. With todays processors Windows should be FAST.
Mac OS X uses more system resources than Windows XP, just... thought I'd letcha know...
I didn't actually say what you quoted me as saying. I think you're confusing me with Dalemations. smile
Posted: Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 4:32am

Post 36 of 86

A Pickle

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sfbmovieco wrote:

Do you want a Hyundai- A cheap car that will get you from A to B and last for 100,000 miles or so...Or do you want a Mercedes, a car that is stylish, sleek, and is just an overall better performer for what it was specifically built for?
I would be very surprised if anyone would argue for a Mercedes... or any luxury car, for that matter. They chock full of features... but in the end, the value car gets just as many miles and costs less to repair.

Hmm. Sounds like a Mac to me, great comparison. biggrin

(Okay, now that's worthy of being flamed, so uh... I deserve it for that one. smile)

sfbmovieco wrote:

No one should take it personally...A Pickle, if you want to start an anti Apple post, go ahead. Just please stop crying about this thread like it's life or death.
I think this is funny. I'm not taking this personally - I'm adding my two-cents, just like you and everyone else here. In this case, my two-cents just so happen to be in conflict with cantaclaro's (and whomever else I've disagreed with) posts.

I find that the best way to do this is to quote the tidbits of individual posts I disagree with, replying to them, and moving on. In the end is a much longer, however (in my opinion) much more organized and coherent post. You may interpret that as "taking it personally," or as "simply replying," but I will vouch for the latter, as I am in no way losing sleep or stressing over the contents of a discussion in an online forum.

TimmyD wrote:

A Pickle: If you have a point to make, make it, then leave this topic. Many of your statements are based purely on opinion, and clearly some responses are instigating a rather intense feeling of hate?
Hate is a strong word, and I would encourage anyone with hateful feelings to abstain from this discussion.

However, you bring forth a paradox. In saying, "Many of your [A_Pickle's] statements are based purely on opinion, and clearly some of the responses are instigating a rather intense feeling of hate," I ask you to justify the topic's first post, as it was what encouraged me to make my opinion known in the first place. In the tone and manner in which it was composed, I felt compelled to reply.

Note, nowhere did I state that Macs are inferior or that Mac OS X is inferior. I do make note, however, that many other users have freely extended their own "poetic" statements against Windows, but they don't get flamed in any manner whatsoever. I offered my opinion in a tone I deemed fit for a reply to Cantaclaro's post.

Serpent wrote:

Er, they've had a little bit more of a jump with Dell, try since their existence.
I didn't say they made a jump with Dell. I said Dell was extremely important (as in, moreso than Apple) to Intel.

Serpent wrote:

Canta is clearly joking, he always does that (maybe he's serious, but he meant it in no offensive/hostile (for lack of better word) way.
Fantastic. Obviously I didn't interpret it that way, and either way - they're computing platforms. I'm not offended - I'm just compelled to reply in a tone I deem fitting, and I'm asking for a lot more objectivity.

Hybrid-Halo wrote:

Both operating systems have their uses, both their pros and cons. Anyone unable to see this and having to delve into meaningless statistics or sales figures to try and proove any point simply to defend their choice of hardware/software is somewhat a sad case in my books.
Though you are most likely referring to me with that statement, it may come as a surprise for you to hear me say that I agree with that. And once again I'd like everyone to make note that I never said Macs or Mac OS X or the Mac platform was genuinely inferior - I simply replied to cantaclaro's post.

I might add, it's also habit of mine to research my statements in debates such as these...

Hybrid-Halo wrote:

Since when was best selling really the best, most used the most efficient?
I never said it was...

Hendo wrote:

I didn't actually say what you quoted me as saying. I think you're confusing me with Dalemations. smile
Indeed I did. I shall edit that post-haste.
Posted: Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 4:51am

Post 37 of 86

sfbmovieco

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A Pickle wrote:



Yeah! Now I can buy a way more expensive computer and dual-boot Windows XP and Mac OS X with relatively dismal hardware horsepower...

...or I can buy a much cheaper, much faster Dell Precision M90 mobile workstation (read: notebook) which comes with a 512 MB workstation graphics card, up to 4 GB of RAM and all kinds of other goodies.
You say you never said Macs or OSX was inferior. Then what is the above post about? dismal hardware horsepower? dell is much faster? If it is not said bluntly, then it is certainly implied that you think Apple is inferior.

A Pickle wrote:



Why do you think that all computer users really want to use a Mac, but use Windows for some reason? Would it kill you to hear someone stand in front of you and say, "I would rather use Windows than Mac OS X" ?
Why even say something idiotic like this. I use the term idiotic against you not because you are an idiot, but because generalizations like this show a lack of thought process. Of course you didn't mean all (I can only hope) but thats not really the point. I know you were speaking to someone else, but it does not bother me that you like Windows only and not Macs.

A Pickle wrote:


[*]PC's are cheaper, IE, I won't pay out the nose for a computer, and then tack on another $150 for a copy of XP Pro.
It seems pc only people come back to this sticking point. So if you had all the money in the world, would you get a Mac then? If most people had no monetary limitations, and asked them point blank, Mac or PC? What would happen?

Those looking for solutions for film, video editing and graphic design would most likely go with a mac.

Now I know you would disagree and say that if you had ten million dollars you would still have a PC. Ok. Whatever.

And by the way, I'd argue for the Mercedes wink

Sure the value car gets as many miles (not sure if thats 100 percent true, ask hyundai or kia owners) but you pay more for nicer things. If you want to buy a 600 dollar pc, you will most certainly get what you pay for.
Posted: Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 7:58am

Post 38 of 86

Simon K Jones

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Dalemations wrote:

I don't think this signals 'the beginning of the end for the Mac OS'. On the contrary, most people (those who've used Macs anyway) would concede that the Mac OS is superior to Windows.
That wasn't really my point. I was more suggesting that if you allow both OS to be run on the same platform, the overwhelming might of Windows (in terms of usage numbers) could end up overwhelming it.

As somebody else suggested, if you can boot to Windows on a Mac, will publishers continue to do dual-platform software development? Or will they just think "why waste masses of resources developing a Mac version when they could just boot Windows and run our original software?"

Similarly, Mac developers might think "if we develop for XP, then Mac users can now use it, and we also open ourselves up to the massive Windows userbase. But there's no need to maximise production costs by also developing an OS X version."

Obviously I hope that doesn't happen, and I'm only musing here. It's not like I'm a market expert. razz But it is a slight possibility.
Posted: Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 8:22am

Post 39 of 86

Joshua Davies

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A Pickle.

The speed bump happened before the MacBook Pro was even released. No MacBook Pros were sent out at the lower spec unless you built to order...

http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2006/feb/14macbookpro.html

The MacBook is also an amazingly high selling laptop considered Apple's market share. While not many Dells feature a Core Duo most of Apple's range has the processor. MacBook Pro, iMac and most Minis sold all use the processor. This is why they were the first people to get large volumes on the Duo processors and why they suffer from short supply. This all came from an agreement with Intel before the switch and should be fairly simple to understand.

From what I've read, the second people to get volume Duos were Sony rather than Dell. Apple continue to make more machines with Duo processors in that any other company.

Also, 3rd biggest PC maker doesn't mean 3rd biggest sales. Half the companies in that list source out manufacture to loads of independant companies and don't own their own stock, unlike Apple and Dell.

There is also no question that in the public eye (rather than enterprise sector) Apple is a vastly more powerful brand that Dell. Its often rated as one the top technology brands for consumers with Sony and Microsoft - well above Intel and companies like Dell and HP. Its like comparing Volvo to Ferrari, everyone knows of Volvos and they sell far more cars than Ferrari, but as a brand Ferrari are far more powerful and can drive sales of your product.

Given that Intel probably makes more money off of Dell than they do off of Apple, I highly doubt it.
They might make more, but not as much as you would think. Nearly all the internals - CPU, MOBO and GPU (on the Mini) are Intel supplied and Apple does tend to buy the more expensive stuff - latest chips etc. Per unit, I bet they make more money from Apple than Dell.

Nobody ever said Mac are cheap, but I do think I'll be interested in the dual processor, dual core Conroe Mac Pro when it appears. For 15-25% less I could get a PC with the same performance maybe, but it will have a manky case (even my nice Coolermaster case is utterly rubbish compared to a G5) and only be able to run Windows. 15-25% to be able to run the best video editing software around doesn't sound like a lot to me - and I also like Mac OS X so it really sound like a pretty good deal. 2 machines in 1.

Mac OS X uses more system resources than Windows XP, just... thought I'd letcha know...
Depends what you mean by use. Firstly, its going to on a PPC because its RISC. Secondly, its far more sophisticated than XP so it will. Thirdly, it depends how well it uses them and how this effects the environment for the users.

The first post isn't flamebait if you ask me. Although it could have been put better. Still, you seemed to go and start a war (like you often do) against both fans of the Mac and Windows this time. You really do seem rather more biased than you think.

In the end someon as biased as you should see this software as a positive. .. anyone buying a Mac BECAUSE of bootcamp is basically saying that although they love Mac OS X they can't get by without the worlds most popular operating system - Windows.
Posted: Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 10:16am

Post 40 of 86

coldside

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I think that maybe everyone should take a chill pill and get on with their lives.

We all have our preferances, and all this arguing won't change tem. So why do it. To show that you're better? To show that you're right? Come on guys, grow up and have a little respect.

Please?
Posted: Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 11:47am

Post 41 of 86

Kid

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Serpent wrote:

Wait, does this mean (if I had an Intel Processor) I could play any game/run any app a PC user could, along with all my Mac stuff on one machine?
No unfortunatly it is not 100% compatible hardware and games are probably where it will fall down. Of course it depends on whether Microsoft optimises those parts of Windows for this hardware or not as to whether it will become better in the future.
Posted: Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 12:06pm

Post 42 of 86

Kid

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schwar wrote:

From what I've read, the second people to get volume Duos were Sony rather than Dell. Apple continue to make more machines with Duo processors in that any other company.
I think you are both looking at this from different angles here. Yes Dell were the first to have the Core Duo but Apple were the first to get and use it in volume and if Dell had needed higher volumes then they may have been turned down due to Intels contracts with Apple.

The reason you are both right and yet it doesn't really mean what either of you are using it to imply is that the Core Duo isn't really big news in the PC market yet. The vast majority of users will buy the mid to low range processors rather than high end/new technology and serious users will be going for Opteron/Xeon and not wasting their time with it. So really it doesn't have a huge place there yet. On the Apple side you are forced to have the latest/greatest cpu and pay for it which is a good and bad thing. This has always been the case with macs and nothing has changed so we don't really need to go further into that.

Pickle is right in that Dell is a huge customer (They make Dells custom mobo, integrated graphics and so on too) but Schwar is right that Apple is a fairly important one too and prolly easier for them to deal with seeing as what they buy is more specific.

My main point is really though, whoever got it first is not that important.
Posted: Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 2:13pm

Post 43 of 86

FXhomer2855

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wow. some of you guys have way to much freetime.
Posted: Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 2:15pm

Post 44 of 86

Hybrid-Halo

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Rating: +2

Boring boring boring. What happened to all the interesting points regarding where the future might take both Operating Systems? And who let the statwhores in?

How are these for points to muse on:

How big a deal is xp running on a mac considering xp will be history within 6-8 months, a few months after Vista is released?

Does high-end tech really affect the majority of customers?

Why is there arguments over power, when the appeal of a Mac has rarely been power, it's been quality within the operating system and applications?

Why are there any arguments at all regarding laptops? Nobody likes a laptop user.

I find all those points more interesting than the boring techie banter regarding power or sales. Come on guys, let's try and keep things interesting.
Posted: Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 3:21pm

Post 45 of 86

Atom

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Whoa.

I don't even need to read the 3 pages to think.

Okay, let's see, it was started by canta, so we'll probably have passed some witty but overall unnecessary comment about Windows.

Schwar probably overpraised Mac OSX to the point where it perturbed....uh..........A Pickle? Not necessary, again, but A Pickle probably overtook the comment in retaliation.

Okay, lets see........from here we probably, yep, probably had about 2.5 pages of Mac/PC Ping pong. Fun!

I do consider Macs, by opinion, to have a more obnoxious communal base to their users, but similar could be said about PCs. Heck, Macs are pretty, they have Final Cut, but for me, those are the only things I want on them, and thats reason enough for me to get an XPS instead. Mackies are somewhat nice, I'm typing on one of like 15 in my computer lab right now, (Yes, a Mac computer lab. wink shudder) but like A Pickle said, not EVERYONE secretly wants one. I'm gonna end here, saying that it seems unfair for Windows to be bootable on Macs, and not MacOSX on Windows, but whatever.

Hybird and Ernie, y'all got the idea. Peace pipe, I like it. wink (Oh, and....PCs gay? Never! smile )

Hope y'all have fun. smile One thing I notice is that in this Ping-Pong game the Mackers seem to be serving off the corner of the table more than PC-ers. I dunno, it seems more provoked by Mackers to me, but I'm a bicomputeral, so don't think I'm advocating the Wintels here.
Posted: Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 3:44pm

Post 46 of 86

TurManveru

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Hybrid-Halo wrote:

Why are there any arguments at all regarding laptops? Nobody likes a laptop user.
Really? sad
Nobody likes me? I never knew there was such bigotry toward us laptopies...

*Sniff Sniff*
Posted: Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 3:51pm

Post 47 of 86

DigiSm89

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Hybrid-Halo wrote:

Boring boring boring. What happened to all the interesting points regarding where the future might take both Operating Systems? And who let the statwhores in?

How are these for points to muse on:

How big a deal is xp running on a mac considering xp will be history within 6-8 months, a few months after Vista is released?

Does high-end tech really affect the majority of customers?

Why is there arguments over power, when the appeal of a Mac has rarely been power, it's been quality within the operating system and applications?

Why are there any arguments at all regarding laptops? Nobody likes a laptop user.

I find all those points more interesting than the boring techie banter regarding power or sales. Come on guys, let's try and keep things interesting.
And then you can get into economics and politics and it becomes even more interesting.

I have a short list of why this decision can be potentially bad for Apple and OS X and even better for Microsoft and Windows.

One reason which was on my list was what Tarn said at the beginning of the thread in regards to software developers. A major reason for Windows' success is the vast amount of software developers supporting and developing software for the OS.

If the barrier between using Macs and Windows at the same time is broken because of this new development, why should companies support OS X? Why would a company dedicated to making Windows software spend money to hire mac developers and expand their venture to supporting the optional OS when they can just stay with their current strategy and OS?

There were also some political-economic reasons as well such as jobs, etc.

I don't think the majority of posters here would want me writing the rest of my list so I'll stop here.
Posted: Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 3:53pm

Post 48 of 86

Joshua Davies

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I've not praised Mac OS X at all as far as I can tell in this post, it just seemed like another post where A Pickle felt the need to come in and fight about something which wasn't meant to be a fight.

I personally don't think this software is going to make much difference to anything (might kill the games market on the Mac) which is kinda what I've been saying all along while also trying to point out where people have just been talking rubbish.

Maybe Apple's hardware share will increase because of bootcamp, but many of the people swapping might end up using Windows as their main OS on Mac hardware so the OS share probably won't increase at all.

Even if it does increase we're probably talking a maximum 0.5% anyway unless Dell get a licence to sell Mac OS X. In the end you won't get any Mac users switching to Windows (have they before now? and its always been the cheaper route) so I think the market share is safe but probably won't change.

The main problem I had was the random attack on Apple and Mac OS X just because Apple has released some new software - this seems to happen a lot on FXhome.com and A Pickle is normally right in there. cantaclaro's statements about Window and Dell are obviously jokes but there you go.

The first post still reads as randomly agressive and like someone is trying him to force him to buy Mac. Rather than talking about how interesting it is that Apple would go down this path A Pickle instantly started the flame war.

Lets get back to talking about bootcamp and discuss http://www.parallels.com which seems very interesting.
Posted: Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 4:52pm

Post 49 of 86

A Pickle

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sfbmovieco wrote:

You say you never said Macs or OSX was inferior. Then what is the above post about? dismal hardware horsepower? dell is much faster? If it is not said bluntly, then it is certainly implied that you think Apple is inferior.
Alright, fair accusation. The term "dismal" as for describing performance isn't a correct term - Macs are on par with PC's as far as performance goes (where G5's and Core Duo's are concerned, "dismal" fits for the G4). So, I suppose you got me there, that was an unfair statement towards Apple and for that I apologize.

I still think that you can get, at least, a little bit faster a PC for your dollar than you can with a Mac.

sfbmovieco wrote:

Why even say something idiotic like this. I use the term idiotic against you not because you are an idiot, but because generalizations like this show a lack of thought process. Of course you didn't mean all (I can only hope) but thats not really the point. I know you were speaking to someone else, but it does not bother me that you like Windows only and not Macs.
I said it because of what was implied in the posts I was replying to.

sfbmovieco wrote:

It seems pc only people come back to this sticking point. So if you had all the money in the world, would you get a Mac then? If most people had no monetary limitations, and asked them point blank, Mac or PC? What would happen?
There are PC's that can surpass Macs in price, and yes, I would go for a PC if I had no monetary limitations. You CAN build/buy 16-way dual-core Opteron/Xeon systems, you know...

schwar wrote:

The MacBook is also an amazingly high selling laptop considered Apple's market share. While not many Dells feature a Core Duo most of Apple's range has the processor.
"Most of Apple's range," is three different computer models, which comprises 60% of their range (iBooks and PowerMacs have yet to make the switch). Dell has a much bigger range, and currently offers at least five notebook models with the Core Duo.

schwar wrote:

They might make more, but not as much as you would think. Nearly all the internals - CPU, MOBO and GPU (on the Mini) are Intel supplied and Apple does tend to buy the more expensive stuff - latest chips etc. Per unit, I bet they make more money from Apple than Dell.
Dell buys all of those components from Intel as well. You might be right in that Intel makes more per Apple unit than does Dell... but that's only because they give Dell some very nice discounts. And Dell still sells far more than Apple...

Atom wrote:

Schwar probably overpraised Mac OSX to the point where it perturbed....uh..........A Pickle? Not necessary, again, but A Pickle probably overtook the comment in retaliation.
I was "inspired" to post from cantaclaro's post which was apparently worded in a fashion that was "clearly joking." [/sarcasm]

schwar wrote:

The main problem I had was the random attack on Apple and Mac OS X just because Apple has released some new software - this seems to happen a lot on FXhome.com and A Pickle is normally right in there. cantaclaro's statements about Window and Dell are obviously jokes but there you go.
No, you had an attack on the first post of a topic. I didn't attack Apple or it's software in the first post, I replied to cantaclaro's statements. In replying to me, however, you posted some things which I disagreed with... whcih I then replied to (even then, I still didn't say anything about Apple or it's software).

Regarding the "obvious fact" that cantaclaro's statements are "obviously jokes," yeah, right. I'm sorry, but I missed the punch line (obviously). It didn't make me chuckle, just as I imagine a post that said "You are all out of excuses Mac users, in other news Steve Jobs just crapped his pants," wouldn't make any of the resident Mac users chuckle. A post like that would instantly be flamed. Hell, if I were to go and start a topic about how great Windows Vista will be, chances are someone would post some quick rap about "Windows sucks" and get away with it.

Oh wait... that's already happened like... five times in this thread. Then you slam me for bias. Hmm. I smell bias...

schwar wrote:

Rather than talking about how interesting it is that Apple would go down this path A Pickle instantly started the flame war.
I have two beefs with this statement - one, I don't think this is a flamewar, I think this is a debate. Second, I don't think I started it, I like how everyone completely dodged the question regarding the first post. Oh wait I'm sorry, I forgot - he was "clearly joking." [/sarcasm]

schwar wrote:

Rather than talking about how interesting it is that Apple would go down this path A Pickle instantly started the flame war.
Yes, it's no secret that cantaclaro was "clearly joking." [/sarcasm]
Posted: Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 5:05pm

Post 50 of 86

Alex Reeve

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A Pickle wrote:

Blah blah blah...

Yes, it's no secret that cantaclaro was "clearly joking." [/sarcasm]
Unless Michael Dell did actually evacuate his bowels, how could it not have been a joke?

Methinks you take this way too seriously.
Posted: Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 5:33pm

Post 51 of 86

Joshua Davies

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A Pickle, you still make some odd statements including still going on about the Duo... You think a few top end offerings from Dells worldwide range of like 50+ computers adds up to them selling as many Duos as over 60% of Apples range? Its more like 80% of Apple's range when you look at actual sales as well. I would take 80% of Apple's sales over 3-4% of Dells sales.

Also we have deleted Mac and PC slamming statements a lot. Just the other day I made a post after a Mac person wrote "Windows sucks" saying that they can be named as the person starting the flame war in that thread. Its against the forum rules to make these kinda statement just because so many people go insane over it.

Still, nevermind. anyway back to the topic.

I'm interested to see the performance of the Parellels software, although running an OS in a window always feels a little odd to me.

I've read that DirectX 9c runs fine on the bootcamp machines so they shouldn't have much problem with modern games (well, unless you try and run Oblivion where the X1600 would be rather stretched). Once I get an Intel Mac (waiting for the Mac Pros) I will be interested in trying this out, but i doubt the reboot option is something I'll be a fan of after about 5 mins. If Parellels software can make the OS run and switch like OS X fast user switiching that would be pretty cool.

The Mac games market is pretty down about bootcamp which is a shame, but then the Mac games market has always suffered by having a poor implimentation of OpenGL (for games) and no Direct X. It never helped than the games came 6-18months late. Since I started owning decent PCs I've not played a single Mac game. The last Mac game I purchased was Marathon 1 in 199erm...
Posted: Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 6:43pm

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alpha54

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I can't really be bothered making a long post, just wanted to say I'm a PC man all the way. No way in hell you'll ever get me to use a Mac, for a multitude of reasons! razz
Posted: Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 7:04pm

Post 53 of 86

sfbmovieco

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alpha54 wrote:

I can't really be bothered making a long post, just wanted to say I'm a PC man all the way. No way in hell you'll ever get me to use a Mac, for a multitude of reasons! razz
Way to tow the company line! eek
Posted: Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 7:27pm

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Fill

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Jesus, Er-no I have stupid jokes too. Macs spelled backwords is scaM!

I don't think Mac did this just to make companies worry. I think they did it so that people who shutup about the whole "Macs-don't-have-enough-programs-for-them" deal.

Really that's a pretty good idea. Don't make a bunch of PC programs for Mac just make Mac compatible with all of the PC programs.
Posted: Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 8:04pm

Post 55 of 86

A Pickle

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Alex Reeve wrote:

Unless Michael Dell did actually evacuate his bowels, how could it not have been a joke?
I didn't say anything about that one.

alpha54 wrote:

I can't really be bothered making a long post, just wanted to say I'm a PC man all the way. No way in hell you'll ever get me to use a Mac, for a multitude of reasons! razz
I'll be honest to that statement. No offense, but I do think that's pretty closed-minded about computing. I had a terrible experience with Macs, but I think I may end up owning, at the very least, a budget one.

Since the debate seems to have abated... I'll add my two cents. I think Windows XP on the Mac platform is a good thing, but I would like to see Mac OS X on more PC's. It's only fair, especially now that Windows XP can go on Macs. I imagine that "Boot Camp" in it's full, unbridled and unbeta'd form will support virtualization, and that should be cool.

swg33k wrote:

I think they did it so that people who shutup about the whole "Macs-don't-have-enough-programs-for-them" deal.
Quality over quantity, swg33k. I just finished installing a Logitech webcam, Yahoo Messenger and MSN Messenger. Admittedly, there are a lot of good software titles out for Windows.... and then there's some pretty grotesque software.

As a whole, I hate Windows software, but there just happens to be enough good stuff (3D Studio Max R7, Adobe Premeire Elements, Paint.NET, etc.) that I have no need to make a switch. All the rest is just stupid though, I hate how hardware for PC's can't just come with a driver - no gimmicky, badly coded, un-customizeable software. I hate how every piece of Windows software and it's mother has to add a freaking IE toolbar, I don't even use IE and that bothers me. I hate how Skype feels the need to create nine different directories in my "My Documents" folder. I hate how my antivirus just dumps .log files in my root drive.

Yeah, line-em up, I like Microsoft. I <3 Windows. I just hate all the crappy software people make for it.
Posted: Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 8:15pm

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Pooky

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Still one major reason why I don't have a Mac: Hardware.

You can upgrade pieces like the RAM and HD and such, but no mac comes anywhere near a PC in terms up upgradeability (as you all *hopefully* know this has advantages and disadvantages), and Macs are more expensive than PCs for the power anyway (I know, you pay for the design) so for the moment anyway, I'm keeping my PC.

Maybe when OS X runs on normal PCs I'll get OS X, but Hardware has always been the main reason I have a PC. That, and the fact that my OS has always been perfectly stable.
Posted: Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 8:21pm

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Joshua Davies

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I've never done the upgrade components thing on the PC.

By the time much better processors appear (1-2 years) you seem to need a different mobo to support them and then different RAM as well. I tend to just keep the case and sometimes the HDs.

Dell computers pretty much offer the same kinda situation as Apple when it comes to upgrading. For quite a while you've been able to upgrade Mac, pretty much everything other than the mobo but its often quite pointless like it is on the PC as its often best to just save for a new machine.

In this case bootcamp wouldn't really help, but I expect Apple thing its really going to attract Dell/HP type customers rather than hardcore PC people who make their own machines (like many of us here at FXhome.com).
Posted: Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 9:18pm

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JohnCarter

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I'm interested to see the performance of the Parellels software, although running an OS in a window always feels a little odd to me.
http://ptech.wsj.com/archive/ptech-20060406.html

Seems like it's working like a charm.

Last edited Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 9:29pm; edited 2 times in total.

Posted: Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 9:20pm

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Serpent

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Pooky wrote:

Still one major reason why I don't have a Mac: Hardware.

You can upgrade pieces like the RAM and HD and such, but no mac comes anywhere near a PC in terms up upgradeability (as you all *hopefully* know this has advantages and disadvantages)
PC's are much easier to find parts for, and they are usually cheaper, but my PowerMac is easily upgradeable if you find the parts. Just open it up, and replace.
Posted: Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 10:19pm

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TimmyD

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To all of the people talking about "when Mac OS X runs on normal PC's," and how Dell wants the license to use Mac OS X and everything, i dont think its gonna happen. Apple has always been supported by the hardware sales. Letting OS X run on something you can get for 400 dollars would be downright dumb, as there would no longer be a reason to buy a Mac computer, unless, of course, you wanted the design.
Posted: Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 10:51pm

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Hendo

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I agree, TimmyD. Unless Apple charge more per OS license to factor in the loss of hardware sales, I really can't understand why they would want to pursue it.

Are there any potential Apple customers who want to run OS X but are turned off by Apple hardware, but they would happily buy Dell hardware instead?
Posted: Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 11:17pm

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DigiSm89

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I only want to play around with OS X, not use it for anything else really.

That's why I'm definitely not committed to buying a mac.
Posted: Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 11:18pm

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TimmyD

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Hendo wrote:

Are there any potential Apple customers who want to run OS X but are turned off by Apple hardware, but they would happily buy Dell hardware instead?
Not I.

But remember who you're talking to here... razz

mVPstar wrote:

I only want to play around with OS X, not use it for anything else really.

That's why I'm definitely not committed to buying a mac.
That's why I let him VNC me. Damn slow though.
Posted: Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 11:22pm

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A Pickle

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TimmyD wrote:

To all of the people talking about "when Mac OS X runs on normal PC's," and how Dell wants the license to use Mac OS X and everything, i dont think its gonna happen.
I think what I hear from PC fans is, "fair is fair." I'm compelled to agree. If Macs have Windows, why can't PC's have Mac OS?

Hendo wrote:

Are there any potential Apple customers who want to run OS X but are turned off by Apple hardware, but they would happily buy Dell hardware instead?
Lots. The fact that Macs couldn't run Windows hasn't ever been a huge detriment to sales - the fact that Windows boxes can be so much cheaper has. Strangely enough, a lot of people are sick of Windows... be it because of user error or a slightly more complicated interface... they are just sick of it. Macs are too expensive... so they almost have no choice.

If Mac OS X were a viable PC option (for which there is no technical reason that it isn't), I think a lot of people would go for it... and in all fairness.... they should be allowed to.
Posted: Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 11:36pm

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TimmyD

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A Pickle wrote:

TimmyD wrote:

To all of the people talking about "when Mac OS X runs on normal PC's," and how Dell wants the license to use Mac OS X and everything, i dont think its gonna happen.
I think what I hear from PC fans is, "fair is fair." I'm compelled to agree. If Macs have Windows, why can't PC's have Mac OS?
...
If Mac OS X were a viable PC option (for which there is no technical reason that it isn't), I think a lot of people would go for it... and in all fairness.... they should be allowed to.
If macs have windows, then essentially microsoft loses nothing, and probably gains.
If windows have mac, apple looses it. All.

And there IS a technical reason that it isnt a PC option. Ready? To be a Mac OS X, there has to be a company that makes it. No hardware=no apple.
Posted: Fri, 7th Apr 2006, 12:07am

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DigiSm89

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TimmyD wrote:

And there IS a technical reason that it isnt a PC option. Ready? To be a Mac OS X, there has to be a company that makes it. No hardware=no apple.
The burden lies on the software, not the PC manufacturers.
Posted: Fri, 7th Apr 2006, 12:27am

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Alex Reeve

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Apple have already been down the route of licensing out its OS, and it nearly killed the company:

Wikipedia wrote:

However, by 1995, Apple owned only about 7% of the worldwide market share of computers, and decided to launch a clone program, by which it would license the Macintosh ROMs and system software to other manufacturers who agreed to pay a royalty. The aim was to increase Apple's market share in the desktop computer market. From early 1995 to mid-1997, it was possible to buy PowerPC-based clone computers, running Mac OS, most notably from Power Computing. Other licensees were Motorola, Radius, APS Technologies, Daystar, and Umax. The styling of the Mac clones often more closely resembled that of a PC than that of a Mac, but the clones frequently offered a lower price and sometimes better performance.

Soon after Steve Jobs' return to Apple, he attempted to re-negotiate the clone manufacturers' license agreements to raise Apple's royalty. When the clone makers refused, Jobs refused to license later versions of the Apple hardware and operating systems to the clone vendors, effectively ending the clone program. He publicly stated that the clone program was ill-conceived and had been a result of "institutional guilt", meaning that for years, there had been a widely held belief at Apple that had the company aggressively pursued a legal cloning program early in the history of the Macintosh, consumers might have turned to low-priced Macintosh clones rather than low-priced IBM PC compatible computers, and Apple might have ended up in the position currently occupied by Microsoft — an extremely powerful company with high profit margins due to its wide base of consumers perpetually dependent on its system software products. By now, Jobs stated, it was too late for this to happen; the clone program was doomed to failure from the start; and since Apple mostly made money by selling computer hardware; for the most part, it ought not engage in a licensing program to reduce its hardware sales.
I'd say I can't see them doing it again, but then, I wouldn't have predicted bootcamp either, so who knows.
Posted: Fri, 7th Apr 2006, 8:19am

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Joshua Davies

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That was more to do with who was in charge back then than anything - that and licencing to terrible companies. I think the idea with Dell would only mean a couple of certified machines could run Mac OS X but it will probably not happen.

We also need to remember that Microsoft doesn't want Apple to die, in fact it could be ripped appart if Apple does - monopolies and all that. This was the reason when Apple was in one of its darkest hours (the one Alex talks about above in the 90s) just when Steve Jobs returned Microsoft gave Apple a ton of money ($50million or something) to stay alive.

Mac OS X isn't going to die while Microsoft needs it alive - so we can all rest easy. I can also think of a few other reasons while it'll keep going, but who knows if it'll ever increase its market share.

Firstly, the only OS which Mac support on their systems is Mac OS X - anything else you'll just be told to contact other companies.

Secondly, Mac won't come with XP installed, therefore requiring the user to install a new unsupported OS for your software is pretty crazy - companies just wouldn't do this.

Thirdly, in the publishing and video sectors where the Mac is still very strong there is lots of software which is Mac only, and its not just stuff made by Apple. This software is part of many production lines so can't just be dropped.

I can't see this being that appealing to anyone unless they really want one of the cool PC only 3D packages or to play games. For those things I bet it'll be great, but for just about everything else people who buy Macs will use the Mac OS - its not like there is hardly any software for it. Of all the applications I love to use I can only think of a couple I wish were on Mac OS - 3dsmax, XSI, and my computer games.

All other software I use is either on the Mac already or has something which is as good or better (video editing software) at the same price on the Mac.
Posted: Fri, 7th Apr 2006, 9:17pm

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sfbmovieco

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eek

Last edited Fri, 7th Apr 2006, 10:33pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Fri, 7th Apr 2006, 9:57pm

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Joshua Davies

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Lets go back to topic...
Posted: Fri, 7th Apr 2006, 10:50pm

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A Pickle

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I like Fcheese!
Posted: Fri, 7th Apr 2006, 11:31pm

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alpha54

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A Pickle wrote:


I'll be honest to that statement. No offense, but I do think that's pretty closed-minded about computing. I had a terrible experience with Macs, but I think I may end up owning, at the very least, a budget one.
No worries dude, no offense taken. smile
I'd have to agree that I'm pretty close-minded about Macs, but just thinking of ever having to use a one-button mouse gives me nightmares... razz

I would consider a Mac Mini as an entertainment computer for the living room, but I'd never replace my proper PC with a Mac.
Posted: Sat, 8th Apr 2006, 3:14am

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sfbmovieco

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Then change out the mouse. I use a mx laser logitech with my powerbook...
Posted: Sat, 8th Apr 2006, 5:36pm

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TimmyD

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alpha54 wrote:

A Pickle wrote:


I'll be honest to that statement. No offense, but I do think that's pretty closed-minded about computing. I had a terrible experience with Macs, but I think I may end up owning, at the very least, a budget one.
No worries dude, no offense taken. smile
I'd have to agree that I'm pretty close-minded about Macs, but just thinking of ever having to use a one-button mouse gives me nightmares... razz

I would consider a Mac Mini as an entertainment computer for the living room, but I'd never replace my proper PC with a Mac.
Pahahaha one button mouse. Who uses one button mice? razz

And i'm very close minded about PC's. Just in case anyone was wondering.
Posted: Sat, 8th Apr 2006, 7:49pm

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Pooky

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TimmyD wrote:

i'm very close minded about PC's. Just in case anyone was wondering.
Wow, nice argument. smile
Posted: Tue, 11th Apr 2006, 8:01pm

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Sisko Kid

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Hi

I wish to ask if there is any news on FXHome brining an update to FXLab so that Intel Based macs can run their apps, without having to evoke the much hated Rosetta?

I have been away and I don't know where to look for this info, so if anyone could be so kind to let me know. I would greatly appreciate it...

After all, since we are more or less all moving toward the new Mintels, any news of Universal apps. would be great news for Mintel users.

I just got a MacMini and am pretty impressed with it... Next to my G5 dual 1.8 (Which I am selling), it runs quite fast...

Thanks... biggrin
Posted: Wed, 12th Apr 2006, 12:30am

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TimmyD

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Sisko Kid wrote:

Hi

I wish to ask if there is any news on FXHome brining an update to FXLab so that Intel Based macs can run their apps, without having to evoke the much hated Rosetta?

I have been away and I don't know where to look for this info, so if anyone could be so kind to let me know. I would greatly appreciate it...

After all, since we are more or less all moving toward the new Mintels, any news of Universal apps. would be great news for Mintel users.

I just got a MacMini and am pretty impressed with it... Next to my G5 dual 1.8 (Which I am selling), it runs quite fast...

Thanks... biggrin
K, well my uninformed idea is that they are going to release a Universal App eventually, be it in Effects Lab 2, or in the near future, but I think it would be a terrible move NOT to in the long run.

Mintels? Dunno bout you, but my mac doesnt taste minty in the least. Try, "Mactels" razz

If i were you, I would not sell that G5 quite so soon, the Intel transition isnt over yet.

Aaaaand just out of curiosity, why do you refer to Rosetta as "the much hated..."?
Posted: Wed, 12th Apr 2006, 9:25am

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Sisko Kid

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Hi TimmyD,

Well, you are right, I think they will eventually upgrade to a Universal App. I might buy the Effects Lab 2 but I might not... Though this company has come a long way since AlamDV, I am not sure I will follow them on EL2. I might wait a bit longer... I was just hoping that an update would make it universal like other companies are doing. They do it for free. I was hoping the same here...

Mintels... Yeah sounds silly, couldn't come up with a better name... Yours is better... wink

The main reason why I am selling my G5 is that it has been defective from the very first day I got it... It has given me trouble since day one. I even got a replacement from Apple and that came with a bunch of new problems... I simply gave up in the end... So... It is time to sell the beast and save up for a MacBook Pro come Jan 07. I am going mobile and that would be the best solution. Till then I bought a MacMini Core Duo and it shall be my in between computer...

So... I hope that by the time I buy my next Mac, it will have Leopard installed on it... Don't care much for the Bootcamp app. Its cool to have, but, there is a reason why I am not using Windows. I would like to continue using MacOS X, if you take my meaning...

Well, it is my birthday today so I better get ready to enjoy this day... Hope I get a Pioneer DVD Recorder (Model 433, with 80GB HD)
biggrin

Have fun Timmy and have a great easter!!!!! ()<-An Egg...
Posted: Wed, 12th Apr 2006, 9:46am

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Joshua Davies

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Well, you are right, I think they will eventually upgrade to a Universal App. I might buy the Effects Lab 2 but I might not... Though this company has come a long way since AlamDV, I am not sure I will follow them on EL2. I might wait a bit longer... I was just hoping that an update would make it universal like other companies are doing. They do it for free. I was hoping the same here...
Hmm, odd post - sorry to hear you might not follow us beyond our current software - any reasons why which we can work on?

Most companies I know of have yet to make the jump to Universal binaries. In fact some of the companies we rely on like Adobe and Microsoft won't be jumping till well in to 2007.

Apple has done a lot to promote the companies who have made the move swiftly so it might seem like most companies have swapped over when in fact the opposite is true - much of this software is also only in beta when it comes to Universal.

As for people giving away the Universal software for free - even Apple is charging for most of its Universal upgraded application and many other companies will be doing the same as it is taking them so much time and effort to switch over (just like when Apple moved to PowerPC and when they moved to Mac OS X).

We intend to keep supporting the Macintosh with our recently released range and future software. At the moment we've had reports that the apps run well under Rosetta on Mactels (which is still a tiny amount of our Macintosh market). Not sure why you claim people hate Rosetta as most people seem to get on very well with it.

We'll keep you up-to-date about when things progress on this front but it will take a huge amount of work and we're still waiting on 3rd party software to be ported.
Posted: Wed, 12th Apr 2006, 6:54pm

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ajjax44

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Just read all six pages of this topic.... Doctor said I should be ok in a couple of weeks...
Posted: Wed, 12th Apr 2006, 8:14pm

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Sisko Kid

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schwar wrote:

Well, you are right, I think they will eventually upgrade to a Universal App. I might buy the Effects Lab 2 but I might not... Though this company has come a long way since AlamDV, I am not sure I will follow them on EL2. I might wait a bit longer... I was just hoping that an update would make it universal like other companies are doing. They do it for free. I was hoping the same here...
Hmm, odd post - sorry to hear you might not follow us beyond our current software - any reasons why which we can work on?

Most companies I know of have yet to make the jump to Universal binaries. In fact some of the companies we rely on like Adobe and Microsoft won't be jumping till well in to 2007.

Apple has done a lot to promote the companies who have made the move swiftly so it might seem like most companies have swapped over when in fact the opposite is true - much of this software is also only in beta when it comes to Universal.

As for people giving away the Universal software for free - even Apple is charging for most of its Universal upgraded application and many other companies will be doing the same as it is taking them so much time and effort to switch over (just like when Apple moved to PowerPC and when they moved to Mac OS X).

We intend to keep supporting the Macintosh with our recently released range and future software. At the moment we've had reports that the apps run well under Rosetta on Mactels (which is still a tiny amount of our Macintosh market). Not sure why you claim people hate Rosetta as most people seem to get on very well with it.

We'll keep you up-to-date about when things progress on this front but it will take a huge amount of work and we're still waiting on 3rd party software to be ported.
Master Schwar... Your swchartz is bigger than mine... wink

First, my message was not not intended as any kind of insult... Just so we can get that out of the way, second, I will get back to you on the details of my message... As I think you might have misunderstood it...

Have a great easter folks!
Posted: Wed, 12th Apr 2006, 10:53pm

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Hendo

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If you get a moment, this commentary piece is worth a read, IMO.
Posted: Wed, 12th Apr 2006, 10:59pm

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Joshua Davies

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I wasn't angry Sisko Kid smile
Posted: Sun, 23rd Apr 2006, 3:19am

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epeterson

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Someone might have already said this because I didnt feel like reading six pages of posts. But if you think about it this could actually help microsoft because the apple users would have to buy xp to run this so their xp sales would boost.
Posted: Sun, 23rd Apr 2006, 3:41am

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TimmyD

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epeterson wrote:

Someone might have already said this because I didnt feel like reading six pages of posts. But if you think about it this could actually help microsoft because the apple users would have to buy xp to run this so their xp sales would boost.
Microsoft will not benefit from the incredibly insignificant number of XP sales that result from this. First of all, there would not be, like i said, a significant number of people who would buy XP just for this, and second of all, people aren't buying macs to run XP.
Posted: Thu, 27th Apr 2006, 1:09am

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NickD

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people aren't buying macs to run XP.
Ah, but Timmy my friend . . .

We can always dream wink