You are viewing an archive of the old fxhome.com forums. The community has since moved to hitfilm.com.

Rate of Fire

Posted: Thu, 4th May 2006, 5:28pm

Post 1 of 29

CurtinParloe

Force: 841 | Joined: 16th Oct 2001 | Posts: 916

EffectsLab Lite User Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

Here's a bizarre question:

I have some footage of a man firing a submachine gun, and I want to know how fast it would fire if it were real (unless I know it'll have to be 25 shots per second - the frame rate). I've looked online, and all I've found is a very scary group of NRA members and a slightly scary group of role-players.

Any ideas?
Posted: Thu, 4th May 2006, 6:23pm

Post 2 of 29

Redhawksrymmer

Force: 18442 | Joined: 19th Aug 2002 | Posts: 2620

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 3 Pro User MuzzlePlug User PowerPlug User PhotoKey 3 Plug-in User FXhome Movie Maker FXpreset Maker Windows User MacOS User

SuperUser

What kind of submachine-gun is it? Different models fire at different rates.
Posted: Thu, 4th May 2006, 6:44pm

Post 3 of 29

Garrison

Force: 5404 | Joined: 9th Mar 2006 | Posts: 1530

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 2 Pro User MuzzlePlug User PowerPlug User PhotoKey 3 Plug-in User FXhome Movie Maker MacOS User

Gold Member

Not sure why you can't find that info online. But if it's the more common sub-machine guns like M16, M4, AK-47, MP5 etc, you can find that info on movie DVD's in the Special Features section if you happen to own these:

Lord of War

S.W.A.T.

Over There (the TV series)

I think HEAT and Assault on Precinct 13 have some info too.

I'm sure there are others, but these come to mind.
Posted: Thu, 4th May 2006, 11:47pm

Post 4 of 29

blh

Force: 210 | Joined: 24th May 2005 | Posts: 121

EffectsLab Lite User

Gold Member

mp5 is a sub machine gun the others are assault rifles
Posted: Fri, 5th May 2006, 12:04am

Post 5 of 29

Garrison

Force: 5404 | Joined: 9th Mar 2006 | Posts: 1530

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 2 Pro User MuzzlePlug User PowerPlug User PhotoKey 3 Plug-in User FXhome Movie Maker MacOS User

Gold Member

benholmes wrote:

mp5 is a sub machine gun the others are assault rifles
Whooops that's true...lumped in all in by mistake... tard ... but the source still stands if you can't get the info online
Posted: Fri, 5th May 2006, 12:10am

Post 6 of 29

blh

Force: 210 | Joined: 24th May 2005 | Posts: 121

EffectsLab Lite User

Gold Member

most subs have a switch that varries the rate of fire, tell me what your using and i'll try and help

Last edited Fri, 5th May 2006, 12:15am; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Fri, 5th May 2006, 12:12am

Post 7 of 29

AAAx2

Force: 2450 | Joined: 11th Mar 2005 | Posts: 111

VisionLab User VideoWrap User Windows User

Gold Member

A Heckler and Kosh MP-5A2 submachine gun fires at a rate of 800 rounds per minute. What SMG are you looking for?
Posted: Fri, 5th May 2006, 1:56pm

Post 8 of 29

CurtinParloe

Force: 841 | Joined: 16th Oct 2001 | Posts: 916

EffectsLab Lite User Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

That's the trick - I'm using a weird one. It says Colt Double ERagle on the side, and M36 on the box, but it's probably neither.

It's a machine pistol - one of these:


As it is, I couldn't get the Uzi muzzle flash to look right, so I'm using a single gunshot 12 times a second, but I'll worry about that later.


PS Thanks for your replies, guys biggrin
Posted: Fri, 5th May 2006, 2:21pm

Post 9 of 29

Arktic

Force: 9977 | Joined: 10th Nov 2003 | Posts: 2785

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 2 Pro User FXhome Movie Maker FXpreset Maker Windows User MacOS User

SuperUser

That looks like it's supposed to be an Ingram MAC-10, or thereabouts.

If that's the case, a MAC 10 has a fire rate of 1,145 rounds per minute. which works out at around 19 rounds per second, I think.

Hope that helps smile

Cheers,
Arktic
Posted: Tue, 9th May 2006, 10:20pm

Post 10 of 29

CurtinParloe

Force: 841 | Joined: 16th Oct 2001 | Posts: 916

EffectsLab Lite User Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

that'll probably do the job.

thanks Arktic!
Posted: Wed, 10th May 2006, 2:24pm

Post 11 of 29

RusSEAL

Force: 1305 | Joined: 17th Jan 2006 | Posts: 106

VisionLab User VideoWrap User Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

Machine weapons cyclic rates [as many have already noted] vary widely: the General Elecetric Mini-Gun [Predator, T2] has a cyclic rate of 3000 rpm! eek

Sometimes, it's not possible to duplicate an "actuality" of cyclic rates [case in point, you mentioned anything faster than 24 fps would look like it's standing still!] take a look at Doom or Aliens [my all time personal favorite!] so it's what you do to flare the barrel or follow the motion of a full-auto rock-n-roll that makes up for the film's/digital's ability to capture it on-screen!

In order to capture the radical muzzle flashes of the "M41-A Pulse Rifles"- the 45 calibre rounds were balsa rounds with a flash shear muzzle devise added. The equivelant of an ignited, flaming wooden round came up to the muzzle and desintegrated on impact with the shear- allowing for the exhaust to vent out of the report flaring on the muzzle!

Imagine being on a set where the director wants flash and flame coming from full auto weapons and he/she doesn't realize how fake that is in the sense of real weaponry- that most military and law enforcement units that use such devises do everything in their power to not have muzzle flash!

Hopefully, at 19 rps, you'll have a believable fire rate! Thankfully, to most audiences, the flash and sparkle set to the sound FX is usually enough to get reactions that you'd want! wink
Posted: Wed, 10th May 2006, 3:54pm

Post 12 of 29

petet2

Force: 2899 | Joined: 27th Dec 2005 | Posts: 1043

VisionLab User VideoWrap User Windows User

Gold Member

If you were shooting with film you would see a random pattern of mizzle flashes due to the shutter on the camera.

If you are filming at 24fps then the shutter on the camera is open 24 times a second so in theory could capture 24 discrete flashes. However in practice you will find some frames have several flashes on (and so the muzzle flashes look brighter) while some frames have less (or no) flashes on and so appear the muzzle flashes look darker.

Try filming a regular repeating strobe light with a movie camera and you will see that the flicker apears to change rate as it moves in and out of phase with the opening of the camera shutter (or watch the end sequences of the original Alien movie as Ripley tries to escape the soon-to-explode Nostromo).

The sound of gun fire should be regular but the muzzle flashes do not need to be regular and you might find trial and error is the best way. Don't worry so much about scientific accuracy as what feels right when you see it on screen.
Posted: Mon, 15th May 2006, 3:20am

Post 13 of 29

the new godfather

Force: 130 | Joined: 10th Oct 2005 | Posts: 476

Windows User MacOS User

Member

very true

i use my instincts....



i memorize most weapons' rpm stats, relaod time, clip capacity, firing modes, recoil, flash ext...
Posted: Mon, 15th May 2006, 3:11pm

Post 14 of 29

Bryce007

Force: 1910 | Joined: 5th Apr 2003 | Posts: 2609

VideoWrap User Windows User

Gold Member

you memorize "Reload times"? that kind varies with the person using the weapon...

As far as muzzle flash goes, With a small machine pistol like that (and by the way, It's not a mac-10, or a Mac anything for that matter. It's looks like a more like a Micro-Uzi) The muzzle flash would be a constant foot long stream of fire, and it's going to last (On full auto) for about .96 seconds before it's empty.
Posted: Mon, 15th May 2006, 10:37pm

Post 15 of 29

the new godfather

Force: 130 | Joined: 10th Oct 2005 | Posts: 476

Windows User MacOS User

Member

yes, reloading a p-92 will take far less than a g-36 or H&K PSG-1...

try to think a lil, i study relaod times in different conditions with high quality airsoft replicas.


the weaponary in films these days, especially the little stuff in the cinema is appauling and far to often innacurate...
Posted: Tue, 16th May 2006, 1:26am

Post 16 of 29

Bryce007

Force: 1910 | Joined: 5th Apr 2003 | Posts: 2609

VideoWrap User Windows User

Gold Member

A G36 can be reloaded extremely fast, easily as fast as an m4 or a Steyer Aug. The FN-P90 might even be slightly slower due to the unusual magazine location..
Posted: Tue, 16th May 2006, 3:56am

Post 17 of 29

the new godfather

Force: 130 | Joined: 10th Oct 2005 | Posts: 476

Windows User MacOS User

Member

compared to a handgun, no

the handgun has the ability for the mag to drop out on its own and reload is as simple as reseaing the slide


it is far different for a sniper rifle



cheer up ull get it one day, i study them for hours on end, jsut for fun, gun stats that is...
Posted: Tue, 16th May 2006, 11:23am

Post 18 of 29

Bryce007

Force: 1910 | Joined: 5th Apr 2003 | Posts: 2609

VideoWrap User Windows User

Gold Member

Honestly, That's so glaringly obvious, I almost can't believe you typed it. People who barely know what i gun Is know simple, logical things like that, so really..yeah..

and if you study guns all day, You should probably also know that "Just dropping the mag and releasing the slide" is the exact same procedure for an assault rifle, and Same thing with the PSG-1 or any pistol for that matter.
Posted: Tue, 16th May 2006, 4:25pm

Post 19 of 29

JT9

Force: 852 | Joined: 11th May 2005 | Posts: 521

EffectsLab Lite User FXpreset Maker Windows User

Gold Member

CurtinParloe wrote:

That's the trick - I'm using a weird one. It says Colt Double ERagle on the side, and M36 on the box, but it's probably neither.

It's a machine pistol - one of these:


As it is, I couldn't get the Uzi muzzle flash to look right, so I'm using a single gunshot 12 times a second, but I'll worry about that later.


PS Thanks for your replies, guys biggrin
OMG I just got that airsoft gun the other day!
Posted: Tue, 16th May 2006, 11:41pm

Post 20 of 29

the new godfather

Force: 130 | Joined: 10th Oct 2005 | Posts: 476

Windows User MacOS User

Member

Bryce007 wrote:

and if you study guns all day, You should probably also know that "Just dropping the mag and releasing the slide" is the exact same procedure for an assault rifle, and Same thing with the PSG-1 or any pistol for that matter.
i have troubled beleiving that u just wrote that.... u cant just drop the mag out of a m-4 or m16, havnt u ever used the real thing? I use my experiences with the real thing in my film making, u should try to.

if ur tired and ur hands are sweaty, it can be very difficult to reload, one has to pull the mag out and really slam the new one in....

well now u know, so this sort of thing shouldnt happen again..

cheer up, ull get it.
Posted: Wed, 17th May 2006, 1:54am

Post 21 of 29

Bryce007

Force: 1910 | Joined: 5th Apr 2003 | Posts: 2609

VideoWrap User Windows User

Gold Member

This is hilarious. I know you're just joking so I won't bother responding to that...


Also, I own an AR-15 and a Beretta m92f (not airsoft, The Real thing).
Posted: Wed, 17th May 2006, 2:49am

Post 22 of 29

the new godfather

Force: 130 | Joined: 10th Oct 2005 | Posts: 476

Windows User MacOS User

Member

so ur saying that in ur AR-15 that when u unlock the mag, it just drops out, no, even if u oil it, it still wont fall out, that would mean that the all the weight of the mag especially if it high cap, would be on the mag lock.... think a lil,


and if u know so much...and think everything that others say is a joke, then how many rounds are in the army high cap (capacity) mag and can u switch the mags between an AR-15 and a m16?


when ur in the field buddy, untrained and under pressure, ur reload time is going to be far different than when ur playing around with blanks...

cheer up please

Last edited Wed, 17th May 2006, 3:03am; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Wed, 17th May 2006, 2:54am

Post 23 of 29

NickD

Force: 2163 | Joined: 10th Sep 2003 | Posts: 1224

EffectsLab Lite User FXpreset Maker Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

This is turning into an interesting debate wink
Posted: Wed, 17th May 2006, 3:20am

Post 24 of 29

Bryce007

Force: 1910 | Joined: 5th Apr 2003 | Posts: 2609

VideoWrap User Windows User

Gold Member

"everything" that "others" say is a joke? no. Just you.

Firstly, I don't own an army High-cap magazine, but the standard is 30 rounds. Second, There's a huge variety of m-16/AR-15's out there made by different manafacturers, so thats irrelevant.


Third, the difference is possibly 1, maybe two seconds from a pistol unless you've never used one.

"When ur in the field buddy" you Reload Before you totally Empty your mag, unless you like getting shot. Also, I've never bought blanks, So I couldn't comment on "Playing around with them"

And Really dude, There's no reason to pretend your an expert when you haven't got a clue..
Posted: Wed, 17th May 2006, 4:10am

Post 25 of 29

the new godfather

Force: 130 | Joined: 10th Oct 2005 | Posts: 476

Windows User MacOS User

Member

Bryce007 wrote:

"When ur in the field buddy" you Reload Before you totally Empty your mag, unless you like getting shot. Also, I've never bought blanks, So I couldn't comment on "Playing around with them"
i go on my bros ROTC ops, whether u reload when ur out or not, u still have to reload... u need to get that clear, and it can be quite hard to do when ur covered in mud, dead tired or scared s***less. A pistol takes far less effort to reload... u seem to think other wise,

u still havnt commented on the fact that ur wrong about pistols and "assault rifles" reloading in the same way...

and im talking about military issue rifles... now u know


and i "dont have a clue"... waht can u read minds now.. y is everything a joke to u

come on
Posted: Wed, 17th May 2006, 7:37am

Post 26 of 29

Bryce007

Force: 1910 | Joined: 5th Apr 2003 | Posts: 2609

VideoWrap User Windows User

Gold Member

I agree reloading while scared or exhausted make take longer, but that was never the disagreement anyways.

What we were talking about was your thinking that Pistols and assault rifles reload differently. In very few instances is that true. The basics are exactly the same, which are:

1. Press magazine release button.

2. Remove magazine.

3. Insert loaded one.

4. Trigger slide release.


same thing with both pistols and rifles. Nearly all modern assault rifles, submachine guns, machine pistols or Pistols that are worth using have a smooth reloading system that don't take nearly the amount of time as a P.O.S military "Built by the lowest bidder" rifle.

Compare trying to reload one of the newer Ruger .45 pistol with reloading an AR-15. Surprise surprise, I've done both and can tell you the Assault rifle is easier and faster.

At any rate, we're off topic, so The Argument is finished.
Posted: Wed, 17th May 2006, 9:07am

Post 27 of 29

Arktic

Force: 9977 | Joined: 10th Nov 2003 | Posts: 2785

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 2 Pro User FXhome Movie Maker FXpreset Maker Windows User MacOS User

SuperUser

I'd just like to throw in my two cents about this - yes the magazine *will* drop out automatically from an assault rifle when the magazine release catch is pressed.

Don't believe me? Ask any British soldier who was issued with an RSAF SA-80 L85 IWA1. One of the major drawbacks of the mark I weapon (other than reliability concerns) was that initially, the magazine release catch was unguarded, which meant that if it snagged on webbing or clothing then the magazine would fall out, spilling live rounds everywhere. They eventually fixed the design flaw by adding a guard around the catch which stopped it getting caught accidentally.

If the magazine didn't drop out automatically when you pressed the catch, surely the army wouldn't have spent lots of money redesigning and re-issuing their standard issue weapon?

Cheers,
Arktic.

(Oh, and you do reload a pistol and an assault rifle in the same way - for both, you release the empty magazine, reload a new one, and ready the weapon by loading a new round into the breech, either by racking the slide or pulling the cocking lever.)
Posted: Wed, 17th May 2006, 9:47am

Post 28 of 29

Nagual

Force: 1050 | Joined: 21st Jul 2004 | Posts: 289

EffectsLab Lite User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 2 User Windows User

Gold Member

Arktic wrote:

I'd just like to throw in my two cents about this - yes the magazine *will* drop out automatically from an assault rifle when the magazine release catch is pressed.

Don't believe me? Ask any British soldier who was issued with an RSAF SA-80 L85 IWA1. One of the major drawbacks of the mark I weapon (other than reliability concerns) was that initially, the magazine release catch was unguarded, which meant that if it snagged on webbing or clothing then the magazine would fall out, spilling live rounds everywhere. They eventually fixed the design flaw by adding a guard around the catch which stopped it getting caught accidentally.

If the magazine didn't drop out automatically when you pressed the catch, surely the army wouldn't have spent lots of money redesigning and re-issuing their standard issue weapon?

Cheers,
Arktic.

(Oh, and you do reload a pistol and an assault rifle in the same way - for both, you release the empty magazine, reload a new one, and ready the weapon by loading a new round into the breech, either by racking the slide or pulling the cocking lever.)
I consider myself asked and yes thats basically true. The early versions of the SA-80 when the strapping was set up across the body suffered from the mag just falling out, due to the release catch being hit against the body. The act of reloading should never ever have you really slaming a new mag into the housing. If you do you run the risk of either damaging the mag or the housing, or bullet coming lose from the mag and causing a 'stoppage' or missfire.

In the ideal world every soldier would count how many rounds they would have fired and knows when to change his mag, without waiting to check the chamber on the gun stopping ( he checks to see if the weapon is jammed ( see 'stoppage' or missfire above ) However in 99% of the time, during live action ranges most guys Iwas with either forgot, couln't careless or misscounted...
Posted: Wed, 17th May 2006, 10:33pm

Post 29 of 29

the new godfather

Force: 130 | Joined: 10th Oct 2005 | Posts: 476

Windows User MacOS User

Member

Rating: -1

Obviously we have had different experiences; I talking about filming war films, my characters don’t have brand new rifles in la la land. Rifles that have been used, not just played with, can be very difficult to reload, u need to understand that, this is about the filming, it about having believable films, that is one basic element of acting, believability, im sure we all now our 5 basic elements of acting…

You need to ask urself how realist you want ur films to look, they can be better

Cheers

And cheer up


well case closed, i proved my point and we can move on now






lol tell me y u gave this one a neg point?