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Blu Ray Launching Next Week

Posted: Thu, 15th Jun 2006, 10:46pm

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Garrison

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http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=2621&ncid=2621&e=2&u=/nm/20060615/media_nm/media_bluray_dc_3
Posted: Fri, 16th Jun 2006, 12:15am

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Gnome326

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Sony makes the first strike, but hopefully it will be HD-DVD that wins the war. I would hate to see Sony controlling the future video technology, just because they're greedy ol` bastards, and they'll suck us dry, and put crappy software on it that we'll have to download in order to watch it on our computer.
Posted: Fri, 16th Jun 2006, 12:30am

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Garrison

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Yeah they seem to introduce stuff that never really catches on, or at the very least win out. Betamax... MiniDisc... etc.
Posted: Fri, 16th Jun 2006, 6:59am

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Redhawksrymmer

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I actually hope BluRay comes out victorious, but I guess we'll just have to wait and see..
Posted: Fri, 16th Jun 2006, 7:44am

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zguy95135

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Gnome326 wrote:

Sony makes the first strike, but hopefully it will be HD-DVD that wins the war. I would hate to see Sony controlling the future video technology, just because they're greedy ol` bastards, and they'll suck us dry, and put crappy software on it that we'll have to download in order to watch it on our computer.
Oh yes, because we all know that Microsoft makes the best software out there *rolls eyes* . I hope blu-ray wins because it is a better format with more potential.
Posted: Fri, 16th Jun 2006, 5:33pm

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TimmyD

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I don't really know much about either Bluray or HD-DVD. So whichever wins, i could care less.
Posted: Sat, 17th Jun 2006, 5:24am

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Zephlon

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If any one watches "I love the..." on vh1. As they say "Which ever one porn comes out in first, it will win”. As seen in vhs, laser vs. dvd, and a few more. So there is your determining answer. jk

I hope they find a medium. Blue ray has an enormous amount of space (I heard 10+ gig!). But hd is cheaper and from what I have read less complicated, there for hd is easier for independent filmer’s to grasp. So if they could make large hd dvd or make easy and cheaper blueray discs and disc readers then they best may win.

...but u can’t always have the better of two worlds, darn!
Posted: Sat, 17th Jun 2006, 2:44pm

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Bryce007

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10 gigs is nothing..sony's looking at 200gb eight layer disks....


And I still say Blu-ray will probably end up winning out in the end.
Posted: Sat, 17th Jun 2006, 8:27pm

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A Pickle

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HD-DVD is going to kick Blu-Ray in the face. Badly.

  1. It's cheaper.
  2. It's not DRM infected.
  3. HD-DVD products are already on the market.
  4. Betamax.

Plus I really dislike Sony, SO I'm hoping between the inevitable failure of both Blu-Ray and the PlayStation 3, that Ken Kutaragi should commit Hari-Kari, and his company should die in a fiery explosion that would be visible from space.

*cough*
Posted: Sat, 17th Jun 2006, 9:38pm

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Garrison

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For me, I'm not so much for one or the other, I just think (even while competition is good) that splitting the market like this will inevitable upset consumers off if one format discontinues ala Betamax.
Posted: Sat, 17th Jun 2006, 9:46pm

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sfbmovieco

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Like many on here, I don't care which one it is, I just hope one goes out quick. If you buy the weaker format, what are you going to do...What do people do with their old laserdiscs??
Posted: Sat, 17th Jun 2006, 9:49pm

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Kid

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A Pickle wrote:

HD-DVD is going to kick Blu-Ray in the face. Badly. [list=1]
[*]It's cheaper.
[*]It's not DRM infected.
HD-DVD has more DRM than blueray!

I am behind blueray because...

-Blueray has more storage and is much more useful for the PC side of things.
-Price will even out after the initial release.
-HD-DVD uses proprietary rather then open standards that blueray uses and so its versatility is much more restricted.
-Sony is a pretty decent company and it makes quality products and leads pushing new technologies to the mainstream, you shouldnt hold the greediness of Sony BMG against it since it is seperate.
-Blueray will be in PS3 as standard wheras you have to buy HD-DVD seperately for xbox 360 so more people will have it.
-The technologies for blueray have been in the making for a long time wheras HD-DVD was just thrown together recently as a competitor to it. It may be delayed but blueray is a much more 'finished' format then hd-dvd.
Posted: Sat, 17th Jun 2006, 11:31pm

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DigiSm89

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Kid wrote:

-Blueray will be in PS3 as standard wheras you have to buy HD-DVD seperately for xbox 360 so more people will have it.
HD-DVDs can be played on an XP based PC, and we've been able to play them in XP for over a year now, maybe even two years.

And both implement DRM differently. I'm in favor of HD-DVD's implementation, because AFAIK, blueray DRM prohibits backups whereas HD-DVD allows users to backup their discs.
Posted: Sun, 18th Jun 2006, 12:24am

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A Pickle

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-Blueray has more storage and is much more useful for the PC side of things.
It has more storage. That's about it. Blu-Ray might actually be detrimental to the PC side of things, given that you can't often copy when and where you want to -- that's why Microsoft and Intel went with HD-DVD, because it respects the consumer's right to copy considerably moreso than does Blu-Ray.

I dunno why anyone would expect otherwise - Toshiba, a hardware company is developed HD-DVD, while Sony, a hardware and media company (*cough*) developed Blu-Ray.

-Price will even out after the initial release.
Price will even out depending on the laws of economics, as with all things. If there is demand for it, supply will increase and the price will drop. I feel that demand will be greater for HD-DVD because it can, essentially, do the exact same thing as Blu-Ray while costing a good deal less.

HD-DVD is already closer to that than Blu-Ray for a multitude of reasons, not the least of which is the fact that a lot more HD-DVD stuff is already out on the market for a lot less than the single Blu-Ray drive on the market. In addition, the Blu-Ray drive is not backwards compatible with CD's, all of the HD-DVD products are backwards compatible with DVD's, CD's, etc.

Blu-Ray is also much more complicated to manufacture, due to the fact that the recording "etches" are considerably smaller (which allows more of them to fit on a 12cm disk, which gives more space per layer), requiring far more pricise machinery. The purchase and operation of this machinery costs more than that of HD-DVD, and then there's the fragility of Blu-Ray discs.

Due to the microscopic recording size of Blu-Ray, things as miniscule as dust particles can cause substantial and irreparable damage to data, requiring all of the Blu-Ray backers to come up with a method of preventing this. This method adds a step to the Blu-Ray manufacturing process, as they have to coat each Blu-Ray disk with a polymer substrate called "Durabis." It does make Blu-Ray disks substantially more resilient to damage than HD-DVD disks, but given that HD-DVD disks are as resilient to damage as CD's and DVD's... I could really care less. I can't remember the last CD I couldn't read.

-HD-DVD uses proprietary rather then open standards that blueray uses and so its versatility is much more restricted.
Source?

-Blueray will be in PS3 as standard wheras you have to buy HD-DVD seperately for xbox 360 so more people will have it.
Yes, but the basic PlayStation 3 costs $499, while the basic Xbox 360 costs $399. An HD-DVD addon from Microsoft has been promised for "approximately $100-$150," keeping it still below the price of the PlayStation 3. People who own an Xbox 360 (which is already on the market and selling en masse) will opt for the $150 USB addon, rather than the inept, $499 train-wreck Sony will be trying to sell.

-The technologies for blueray have been in the making for a long time wheras HD-DVD was just thrown together recently as a competitor to it. It may be delayed but blueray is a much more 'finished' format then hd-dvd.
First off, try citing some links to back that up.

Secondly, even if HD-DVD was whipped up as a competing standard, if it plays my HD videos at full HD, 30 frames per second, and holds all my data and plays all my games, why do I care? Are you saying that Toshiba engineers can do lazily what Sony engineers have to scramble for?
Posted: Sun, 18th Jun 2006, 1:14am

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Kid

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mVPstar wrote:

Kid wrote:

-Blueray will be in PS3 as standard wheras you have to buy HD-DVD seperately for xbox 360 so more people will have it.
HD-DVDs can be played on an XP based PC, and we've been able to play them in XP for over a year now, maybe even two years.

And both implement DRM differently. I'm in favor of HD-DVD's implementation, because AFAIK, blueray DRM prohibits backups whereas HD-DVD allows users to backup their discs.
The 'HD-DVD's that you are talking about are not actually the HD-DVD standard whatsoever but non standard mpeg4 encoded movies on a standard DVD data disc. This has nothing to do with the HD-DVD standard that we are currently talking about.

As for DRM, what you say is not true at all. HD-DVD only allows you to make backups if the distributor sets a flag allowing you to. All titles so far on HD-DVD or Blueray do not allow you to make backups. HD-DVD is more restrictive because it is based more on a proprietary format and is more 'integrated' with windows. Under Vista the entire stream from disk to screen will be protected to stop you from copying. Blueray on the other hand uses open formats and no such restrictions in windows, meaning that as a worse case you couls screen capture to make a backup.

There is lots of discussion about this over on www.doom9.org.
Posted: Sun, 18th Jun 2006, 1:47am

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Kid

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A Pickle wrote:

-Blueray has more storage and is much more useful for the PC side of things.
It has more storage. That's about it. Blu-Ray might actually be detrimental to the PC side of things, given that you can't often copy when and where you want to -- that's why Microsoft and Intel went with HD-DVD, because it respects the consumer's right to copy considerably moreso than does Blu-Ray.
This DRM issue is a myth, see my other post and follow the doom9 link for evidence.

Both formats can be used for storing data. This is where more storage is particularly useful. Imagine being able to backup your entire system to a single cd/dvd size disk. This is only possible with blueray.

I dunno why anyone would expect otherwise - Toshiba, a hardware company is developed HD-DVD, while Sony, a hardware and media company (*cough*) developed Blu-Ray.
Sony is not a media company, the media company is entirely seperate. Sony has been known to conflict with Sony BMG in the past, most recently over DVD, Minidisc and PVRs.

-Price will even out after the initial release.
Price will even out depending on the laws of economics, as with all things. If there is demand for it, supply will increase and the price will drop. I feel that demand will be greater for HD-DVD because it can, essentially, do the exact same thing as Blu-Ray while costing a good deal less.
It has way less storage. For video this means that the quality and size of recording is lower. When HD TVs are more common the difference will become more apparent. Also a more compressed format takes more cpu power to decompress, this may not seem like an issue now but it will for video in games and multifunction players. It also means that as they become popular formats blueray players will become cheaper to make than hd-dvd players.

HD-DVD is already closer to that than Blu-Ray for a multitude of reasons, not the least of which is the fact that a lot more HD-DVD stuff is already out on the market for a lot less than the single Blu-Ray drive on the market. In addition, the Blu-Ray drive is not backwards compatible with CD's, all of the HD-DVD products are backwards compatible with DVD's, CD's, etc.
Most 'HD-DVD' stuff currently out has nothing at all to do with this standard and is just HD on a DVD. It can only be played by PCs or specialised players. It will not be compatible with the actual HD-DVD standard or players.

Blueray is just as capable of being backwards compatible to CD as HD-DVD. It depends on the individual player and how they have chosen to implement it. DVD and blueray together already requires 2 lasers and the dvd laser could be used to read cd as well.

Blu-Ray is also much more complicated to manufacture, due to the fact that the recording "etches" are considerably smaller (which allows more of them to fit on a 12cm disk, which gives more space per layer), requiring far more pricise machinery. The purchase and operation of this machinery costs more than that of HD-DVD, and then there's the fragility of Blu-Ray discs.
While this is true it actually means nothing. DVD is 'more complicated' to manufacture than CD. Its still commonplace now. The main effect this has had is that it took longer to come to market than the HD-DVD standard.

Due to the microscopic recording size of Blu-Ray, things as miniscule as dust particles can cause substantial and irreparable damage to data, requiring all of the Blu-Ray backers to come up with a method of preventing this. This method adds a step to the Blu-Ray manufacturing process, as they have to coat each Blu-Ray disk with a polymer substrate called "Durabis." It does make Blu-Ray disks substantially more resilient to damage than HD-DVD disks, but given that HD-DVD disks are as resilient to damage as CD's and DVD's... I could really care less. I can't remember the last CD I couldn't read.
This isnt really true. Both HD-DVD and Blueray would be both more susceptible to dust and scratches than DVD and CD simply because the data is more dense. However this is counteracted by the slightly different reading method. Both formats have been tested and end up about as resilient as a DVD which is quite a lot less than CD. DVDs from different manufacturers are already more or less durable/readable, what you are describing is really a non issue.

-HD-DVD uses proprietary rather then open standards that blueray uses and so its versatility is much more restricted.
Source?
Check out the discussions over on www.doom9.org and www.videohelp.com. Blueray is more likely to be available on linux and sooner to portable devices because of this.

-Blueray will be in PS3 as standard wheras you have to buy HD-DVD seperately for xbox 360 so more people will have it.
Yes, but the basic PlayStation 3 costs $499, while the basic Xbox 360 costs $399. An HD-DVD addon from Microsoft has been promised for "approximately $100-$150," keeping it still below the price of the PlayStation 3. People who own an Xbox 360 (which is already on the market and selling en masse) will opt for the $150 USB addon, rather than the inept, $499 train-wreck Sony will be trying to sell.
What you say is true however I doubt that most people would buy either a Blueray or HD-DVD drive specifically to play movies. DVD became mainstream mainly because the xbox and ps2 contained DVD drives. People are much more likely to start using something they have got rather than go out an buy something to do something that they don't know that they can do. This is the main reason that I think Blueray will become more popular. Microsoft are kind of hedging their bets really, if Blueray does look like it will be the format then I don't think it will be too long before we see a blueray add on drive to the xbox 360.

-The technologies for blueray have been in the making for a long time wheras HD-DVD was just thrown together recently as a competitor to it. It may be delayed but blueray is a much more 'finished' format then hd-dvd.
First off, try citing some links to back that up.

Secondly, even if HD-DVD was whipped up as a competing standard, if it plays my HD videos at full HD, 30 frames per second, and holds all my data and plays all my games, why do I care? Are you saying that Toshiba engineers can do lazily what Sony engineers have to scramble for?
It is easier and quicker to design a format using a smaller disk which is less technologically advanced. HD-DVD is a format that was designed to answer Blueray because they knew they could design something similar in a shorter time. It is inferior however, compromises were made. Immediatly this will not be apparent just like the first games to come out on DVD for the xbox/ps2 were not much bigger than a CD but it didn't take long before some games were coming out with 2 or 3 DVD discs. At one stage people thought that you would never be able to use more than 1Mb of ram in a computer. Now for many uses 1Gb isn't enough!
Posted: Sun, 18th Jun 2006, 11:14am

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Obi Wan Kenobi

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I can't wait til holographic discs are available. A maximum of 1.something Terabytes on a single disc. And 1GBps… Now that would come in handy.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/02/07/hvd_alliance_founded/
Posted: Sat, 24th Jun 2006, 7:07pm

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sfbmovieco

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Kid, you make valid points, but I disagree about Blu Ray becoming popular partially in part to PS3 sales.

The ps3 high end version will be $600 USD. This is the one that will have the HDMI, so I see no need to use the $500 version as an example. Compare the $600 price point to the premium X-Box at $400 USD and we can already see a difference.

For the market of gamers with expendable ( in this case, some may argue 'thrown away') income, $200 is a significant amount of money.

Take into consideration the HD-DVD drive will be an extra $100 dollars, and we're only talking $100. Still a good amount of money.

Now please note, I am not saying the PS3 does not deliver for what it costs; a standalone Blu-Ray player I'm sure is $600 if not more. Plus of course you get the gaming experience, so on and so forth.

However, the $600 price tag, not to mention speculation that PS3 games will be in the $70 to $80 dollar range due to the price of Blu-Ray discs does not make me so sure that Sony will sell enough units to make Blu Ray the standard.

Most people do not put their gaming consoles on their main entertainment center tv anyways, thus I'd have to go out and buy a stand alone Blu Ray player anyway.


I, like this following article, do not see any reason to switch to either HD-DVD or Blu Ray. As this article states, technology becomes popular due to convenience, not just because its more technologically sound. (Cassette->CD, VHS->DVD)

Check this out, many of my arguements stem from this page.

http://www.audioholics.com/news/editorials/10reasonsHDDVDsfailed.php
Posted: Sat, 24th Jun 2006, 9:46pm

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A Pickle

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This DRM issue is a myth, see my other post and follow the doom9 link for evidence.
Maybe I'm blind, but I didn't see anything over at Doom9. I might add, Blu-Ray has some pretty dark DRM control.

http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/may2006/tc20060526_680075.htm

Sony is not a media company, the media company is entirely seperate.
Define "entirely separate." From what I gather from their respective websites, Sony and Sony BGM seem to have identical logos and names, yet there seems not to have been any serious copyright lawsuits or anything of the sort between the two...

Sony has been known to conflict with Sony BMG in the past, most recently over DVD, Minidisc and PVRs.
Link?

It has way less storage. For video this means that the quality and size of recording is lower.
HD-DVD is fully capable of doing fullspeed, 1080p video, just like Blu-Ray. Evidently, they're both past the size point where they can do 1080i HD video without any fancy tricks.

Also a more compressed format takes more cpu power to decompress, this may not seem like an issue now but it will for video in games and multifunction players.
This is irrelevant. Even if it does take more CPU power, if it costs less (which it does) that's all that matters to me, as the consumer. That, and the absence of overbearing hardware-enforced DRM.

As of now, the first HD-DVD player by Toshiba is selling for much, much more cheaply than any of the Blu-Ray offerings. It has a Pentium 4, 1 GB of RAM, and 288 MB of flash memory. At stock price, these players beat out their Blu-Ray competition, and they're selling for well below stock price.

It also means that as they become popular formats blueray players will become cheaper to make than hd-dvd players.
Doubtful. I guarantee you, a 3.0 GHz Pentium 4 will remain excessively cheap relative to the Blu-Ray necessities, such as the "Durasil" coating (a step HD-DVD doesn't even have to go through) a much more sensitive and smaller laser, much more refined recording hardware, etc. Added to that, a 3.0 GHz Pentium 4 is somewhat overkill for the HD-DVD player, Toshiba should and probably will go with a much cheaper, specialized CPU.

Most 'HD-DVD' stuff currently out has nothing at all to do with this standard and is just HD on a DVD.
No, it isn't. What I'm referring to is geniune HD-DVD hardware.

Blueray is just as capable of being backwards compatible to CD as HD-DVD.
Sort of. It's more than possible for Blu-Ray to have the CD and DVD reading/recording devices within the drive itself, just as with HD-DVD. It's just that... it's easier to do in HD-DVD, because HD-DVD conforms to the "Common Disc Structure" that DVD before it did, and CD before it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD_DVD
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc

DVD became mainstream mainly because the xbox and ps2 contained DVD drives.
No it didn't. DVD became mainstream because it got to be very cheap, very fast, and didn't require a new TV. The PlayStation 2 and Xbox had little, if anything to do with it. People's kids played games on those, and the fact that they had an added DVD player was a simple extra.

The only reason the PlayStation 3 and the Xbox 360 will have an impact on the future format is simply because they are the two cheapest players for either format, and people aren't stupid.

People are much more likely to start using something they have got rather than go out an buy something to do something that they don't know that they can do.
An excellent point. People who've already purchased Xbox 360's (because you can actually buy them) will be much more inclined to purchase the HD-DVD addon for $100 rather than going out of their way for a Blu-Ray player to the tune of $500, minimum. So not only will they be going with what they have, they'll also be saving money.

This is the main reason that I think Blueray will become more popular. Microsoft are kind of hedging their bets really, if Blueray does look like it will be the format then I don't think it will be too long before we see a blueray add on drive to the xbox 360.
This is the main reason I think HD-DVD is going to kick Blu-Ray in the arse. Blu-Ray players are more expensive. HD-DVD players are significantly cheaper. The HD-DVD add-on for the Xbox 360 is a matter of choice, and it's still cheaper than the equivalent PlayStation 3.

It is easier and quicker to design a format using a smaller disk which is less technologically advanced. HD-DVD is a format that was designed to answer Blueray because they knew they could design something similar in a shorter time. It is inferior however, compromises were made.
Of course. That's not in dispute, HD-DVD is an inferior format to Blu-Ray. The difference is, Blu-Ray is a lot of razzle, dazzle and shine that is unnecessary, while HD-DVD is what the consumers need, resulting in a cheaper, less DRM-influenced format.
Posted: Sat, 24th Jun 2006, 10:15pm

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Kid

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You seem to have a very shortsighted view.

Blueray is more expensive NOW because they spent a lot of time making a better format which is CHEAPER to produce and holds MORE DATA than hd-dvd. Hd-dvd was knocked out cheaply but requires complecated players than can not be so optimised. This means that they may be cheaper NOW but in the future the price of the blueray will be able to drop much lower than hd-dvd.

You keep going on about this coating which isn't even an issue. Have you not heard of scratch proof DVDs? CDs and DVDs are manufactured to different specs by different manufacturers already. Adding a coating does not make a difference to the cost on these large scales of manufacturing.

You are not talking about HD-DVD standard disks that have been out for ages because they haven't been out for ages. So either the time period or standard that you are talking about is wrong.

Also I believe you are highly underestimating the consoles influence. For a long time far more people had ps2 or xbox than a standalone dvd player and it is what brought DVD to the general public. Standalone dvd players were too expensive (just as with the new HD formats) and PCs were too specialised.
Posted: Sat, 24th Jun 2006, 10:20pm

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sfbmovieco

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No one followed my link....

Format Wars Don’t Sell Players
The only reason Sony’s Playstation, Microsoft’s Xbox and the Nintendo GameCube can sell so well simultaneously is because of the prevalence of excellent software titles. People want to buy the hardware just so they can play the software. This is not a format war – it is choice, just like Chevy and Ford (and just like the gaming systems, some people have one of each). The high definition DVD formats, however are really just the same source material packaged in two different wrappers- not to provide choice, mind you, but because the two camps simply are too greedy to combine forces, and not innovative enough to drive two truly separate products successfully. Take careful note – a format war is NOT competition, it is a hindrance and the bane of high definition DVDs.


Playstation3 Cannot Save the World
We have consistently heard it said that the Playstation3 will “jump start” the market by flooding it with millions of gaming systems capable of handling Blu-ray Disc software. The problem with this theory is that the PS3 is not being marketed as a home theater component and, if current installations prove the rule, most will not be situated in the average consumer’s living room. The result is that the PS3 will primarily be a *gasp* gaming system. Maybe I have a more traditional group of parents in my association of friends, but, taking into account #4 above, I do not think that Blu-ray will make any major leaps forward in market penetration as a home video format – at least not anytime soon.

History is bearing this out, as the HTPC market, though driven hard by such manufacturers as Microsoft, Dell and HP, has struggled to find a place in the living room. Nearly every gaming system of the past: PS2, Xbox, and even the legendary 3DO system have been touted as “set-top boxes” but in reality find themselves situated in more “gaming-centric” environments playing… you guessed it, games.

EDIT: Why should we bow to them and accept paying more money. A player of any HD DVD/Blu Ray will be upwards of $500 dollars, a cheap company brand 30'' hd tv is around $1000 and the discs will be at least $10 a pop. Why argue for either one of them. It's all just bullshit imo.
Posted: Sat, 24th Jun 2006, 11:32pm

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A Pickle

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You seem to have a very shortsighted view.
I don't see how this is relevant, or how I have a shortsighted view.

Blueray is more expensive NOW because they spent a lot of time making a better format which is CHEAPER to produce...
I'm sorry, explain to me how exactly Blu-Ray is cheaper to produce? It isn't -- if Blu-Ray gets cheaper, HD-DVD will get cheaper still. It's simple logic -- the only thing HD-DVD needs a little bit more of than Blu-Ray is the processor, and even the HD-DVD utilizes the same compression codecs as does DVD. Added to that, HD-DVD adheres to the "Common Disk Structure" which CD's and DVD's conform to, so backwards compatibility on HD-DVD players is easier and thus, cheaper.

Blu-Ray adheres to none of this. It's a more fragile disc, requires more specialized players, requires more refined recording and reading technologies AND has to undergo the "Durabis" coating. That said, please, indulge me in how, exactly, Blu-Ray will eventually be cheaper than HD-DVD if it requires that much more (Not omitting, of course, the technology required to make the Blu-Ray DRM work)?

...and holds MORE DATA than hd-dvd.
The largest commercially announced Blu-Ray disc is 50 GB. The largest, commerciall announced HD-DVD disc is 45 GB. Thanks, I'm willing to spare the 5 extra gigs for a little more consumer freedom.

You keep going on about this coating which isn't even an issue.
Except for the fact that it increases the cost of production for Blu-Ray, which is at the very heart of the matter...

Have you not heard of scratch proof DVDs? CDs and DVDs are manufactured to different specs by different manufacturers already.
Have I heard of them? Yes. They're more expensive then the standard media, because they go through an additional manufacturing phase. They are also nothing but marketing gimmicks, as CD's, DVD's and HD-DVD's are very scratch resistant to begin with.Their data layers are covered by a protective cover layer with a thickness of .6 mm, and their "pit" sizes are larger and thusly less susceptible to scratching.

This isn't the case with Blu-Ray discs, whose cover layers are only .1 mm in thickness, and whose "pit" size is quite small. They are much more susceptible to scratching in their raw, non-coated form. Durabis is the solution to this, it is an essential step in the manufacturing of all Blu-Ray disc media. It brings the Blu-Ray disc up to par with the likes of HD-DVD's and the like, but it is an added cost unique to Blu-Ray.

Adding a coating does not make a difference to the cost on these large scales of manufacturing.
It's on those large scales of manufacturing that such a coating would make an impact on cost. Perhaps it only adds one cent to the cost of manufacture, but after 100 million Blu-Ray discs, that's 1 million dollars added to the cost. To pretend that the coating adds nothing to the cost of manufacturing is foolhardy at best.

You are not talking about HD-DVD standard disks that have been out for ages because they haven't been out for ages. So either the time period or standard that you are talking about is wrong.
Alright, you've got me there. HD-DVD hasn't been out for ages, it's simply been out longer than Blu-Ray. HD-DVD launched April 18th, 2006 while Blu-Ray launched June 20th, 2006.

Also I believe you are highly underestimating the consoles influence. For a long time far more people had ps2 or xbox than a standalone dvd player and it is what brought DVD to the general public.
As I recall, people purchased standalone DVD players. They'd buy their kids the game consoles, but they would buy themselves DVD players. I don't know anyone personally who bought one of the next-generation consoles for anything but playing games, most everyone I knew simply didn't buy DVD players until they were affordable.

DVD's were expensive initially, DVD players were expensive initially. People that I knew simply bought consoles for their kids to play games on, or their kids would save up and buy one on their own. Either way, I never got an impression that anyone was ever buying consoles to watch DVD's, because while the consoles may have been cheap DVD players, DVD's themselves weren't cheap. Now they are, and most everyone I know either has a DVD player or a computer to play them on. I can't remember the last time I watched a DVD on a console.

No one followed my link....
sad

The only reason Sony’s Playstation, Microsoft’s Xbox and the Nintendo GameCube can sell so well simultaneously is because of the prevalence of excellent software titles.
The prevalence and marketing of good software titles.

The high definition DVD formats, however are really just the same source material packaged in two different wrappers- not to provide choice, mind you, but because the two camps simply are too greedy to combine forces, and not innovative enough to drive two truly separate products successfully. Take careful note – a format war is NOT competition, it is a hindrance and the bane of high definition DVDs.
Here I disagree. The two camps disagree on what should be the next high definition format, that's why there are two sides. Sony and gang refuse to budge from their DRM standards, while Toshiba and gang refuse to budge from their lack of DRM standards. Money is part of it, but another big part is a general disagreement in the philosophies surrounding the technologies.

We have consistently heard it said that the Playstation3 will “jump start” the market by flooding it with millions of gaming systems capable of handling Blu-ray Disc software.
We have also consistently heard a lot of other bullshit in regards to the PlayStation 3.

Why should we bow to them and accept paying more money. A player of any HD DVD/Blu Ray will be upwards of $500 dollars, a cheap company brand 30'' hd tv is around $1000 and the discs will be at least $10 a pop. Why argue for either one of them. It's all just bullshit imo.
It's called progress. If we followed the philosophy you exemplify above, we wouldn't get anywhere. Believe it or not, there was a time when DVD's were around $50 and players were around $700 apiece. There will be folks who pay at those rates. As manufacturing ramps up to meet the demand, the supply of these new discs and players will increase, and the price will drop, attracting new consumers. These new consumers will buy the same, and once again, manufacturing will ramp up to meet the load of the new demand, supply increases further, and the prices drop further which, in turn attracts a new genre of consumers. 'Tis the cycle of economics (at least, in a capitalist society).
Posted: Sun, 25th Jun 2006, 12:00am

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sfbmovieco

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Well I realize eventually the new products will be a necessity but why go out now and be hard fastened to a media. Like I've stated in other threads, what would you do with a laserdisc player and laserdiscs?
Posted: Sun, 25th Jun 2006, 1:43am

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Atom

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I think PS3 will give Blu-Ray the boost to make it the standard media format.

I cared less about DVDs until I got my imported PS2 in 2000, and then "BAM" I have a 200+ DVD collection. I think PS2 gave many people, namely teens that aren't vary knowledgeable of growing format, the edge to switch from VHS to DVD.

Blu-Ray is more expensive, yeah that sucks I agree, but I highly doubt that HD-DVD will surpass it. Worried about Sony controlling the Blu-Ray format and market? Most likely, they won't. People worried this about Sony controlling and restricting the DVD format, and I've had no gripes.
Posted: Sun, 25th Jun 2006, 2:10am

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Serpent

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Atom wrote:

I think PS3 will give Blu-Ray the boost to make it the standard media format.
I see your point, and many of my friends were the same way with the PS2, but I just don't think the PS3 will work out (I honestly wanted it to for MGS and Elder Scrolls IV for example). There is no fact on this matter, but I'm going to tell you why (you don't need to tell me why it may succeed, because I know these reasons as well).

1. The copyright system they put on the PS3 will not allow you to buy used games or rent games from places like Blockbuster. (The second one might be changed if Sony makes a special rental copy of every game. o_0) Also, you CAN'T bring your games to your friend's house without your console etc. to play it because of this technology they are implementing.

2. The system (and possibly media) will be expensive. $599 for the PS3 with big HD, memory card slots, etc. Then they confirmed buying things online to expand your games, such as buying new weapons in your favorite RPG for example.

3. The competition: Microsoft is making the competing console and it is very similar to the PS3 technology wise, but is a lot cheaper, it's already out, etc. Then Nintendo has the very cheap Wii that will grab gamers and I think will succeed for many reasons. It may not surpass PS3 or XB alone, but it could and combined with the XB (unlike last time) I think the Wii60 will conquer Sony this time around, IMO they are on a downfall making very very stupid decisions such as taking out rumble and having tilt take over that, high prices, not changing much gameplay-wise, etc. That's a whole other argument *NOT FOR THIS THREAD* note, it's just one of my reasons.

Ok, these are the reasons I don't think the PS3 will be as common in the home as the PS2 was, and Sony just recently failed at UMD format. The PSP was going to kick it off and for portable media it flopped. Their software, mainly the movies, have been failing miserably, especially with the biggest media distributor in the world (Wal-Mart sadly) stopped selling UMD movies. I think Universal was the big film company that stopped outputting films on UMD. So I don't think the PS3 will be their main weapon for getting Blu Ray out there. Hopefully they will try other, cheaper hardware options so they can spread the format more than my predictions for the PS3 owner population. You may reply to me, but I'm done, I've made my points on why I think the PS3 will fail. Keep in mind, I am active in the video game community online and an official member of the press, so I have heard all sides on the matter and not much anyone says is going to alter my prediction or opinion.

Who knows what format will come out on top. Blu Ray seems more popular and that's what I predict, but not for the reason you stated IMO. I don't know enough about either to have an opinion on the format war.
Posted: Sun, 25th Jun 2006, 3:23am

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Atom

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I'm just saying that BluRay will have a boost due to the PS3, not that the PS3 will cause it to come off on top.


I won't continue this here, because you make good points, but who's to say the UMD flopped? Maybe it's not exceeding as highly as hoped, but I see people buying UMD movies and games ALL THE TIME. (primarily from Target, which I pretty much consider the better Wal-Mart)

Blu-Ray has my prediction. Endo-story.
Posted: Sun, 25th Jun 2006, 3:33am

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alpha54

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I agree with A Pickle 100%. HD-DVD is less of a hassle, is cheaper for me to acquire and lets me keep more of the consumer freedoms I should be legally entitled to. I know what I want, and I definitely ain't Blu-Ray! smile
Posted: Sun, 25th Jun 2006, 4:15am

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Kid

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A Pickle wrote:

You seem to have a very shortsighted view.
I don't see how this is relevant, or how I have a shortsighted view.

Because you keep quoting prices now rather than what is possible in the future. The whole reason blueray has taken so long is so that they can master the techniques to make a format that is easy to press and easy to make players for.

HD-DVD took shortcuts to produce a disc which is more complicated and works by simply throwing procesing power at it.

Blueray is expensive now but HD-DVD is as cheap as it can be because of its complexity. HD-DVD will drop in price as hardware lowers in price whereas Blueray has a big drop in price possible with optimisation.

Blueray is more expensive NOW because they spent a lot of time making a better format which is CHEAPER to produce...
I'm sorry, explain to me how exactly Blu-Ray is cheaper to produce? It isn't -- if Blu-Ray gets cheaper, HD-DVD will get cheaper still. It's simple logic -- the only thing HD-DVD needs a little bit more of than Blu-Ray is the processor, and even the HD-DVD utilizes the same compression codecs as does DVD. Added to that, HD-DVD adheres to the "Common Disk Structure" which CD's and DVD's conform to, so backwards compatibility on HD-DVD players is easier and thus, cheaper.
Blueray is cheaper because it is easier to make a higher density disc that will be read by a higher frequency laser. HD-DVD uses DVD technology pushed further to the limits. This means that the tolerance is actually tighter for the HD-DVD than the Blueray meaning it is more expensive to make. Blueray is only more expensive initially because it is a new technology, once the processes are in place it becomes much cheaper than HD-DVD.

Blu-Ray adheres to none of this. It's a more fragile disc, requires more specialized players, requires more refined recording and reading technologies AND has to undergo the "Durabis" coating. That said, please, indulge me in how, exactly, Blu-Ray will eventually be cheaper than HD-DVD if it requires that much more (Not omitting, of course, the technology required to make the Blu-Ray DRM work)?
This is just goobledegook and really shows that you don't understand the formats/processes and are just reeling off something you read in an article.

As I have said several times this coating thing is a total red herring. Also Blueray is not more fragile at all, because of the different laser it is actually less fragile than hd-dvd. The drm is less complex than hd-dvd whether it turns out to be more restrictive or not.

Also the fact that HD-DVD uses the same data format is irrelevant because it is a different physical format as well as a different codec. DVD is based on MPEG2 and HD-DVD is based on MPEG4. Blueray is based on MPEG2. Blueray can be played by a 500Mhz pentium equivalent whereas HD-DVD requires a 2Ghz pentium equivilent. This is before post processing which is also cpu intensive. Can you see why the decoding hardware for HD-DVD is going to be more expensive? So why are Blueray drives more pricy, I hear you ask? This is because the physical reading of the disc is more complicated then for hd-dvd initially. However because it is to a lower tolerance than hd-dvd after the manufacturing process is setup yields will be higher and costs will be lower.

...and holds MORE DATA than hd-dvd.
The largest commercially announced Blu-Ray disc is 50 GB. The largest, commerciall announced HD-DVD disc is 45 GB. Thanks, I'm willing to spare the 5 extra gigs for a little more consumer freedom.
Blueray has standard sizes of 25Gb and 50Gb. Therestically more. HD-DVD has a theoretical size of only 30Gb whereas current sizes are lower. So quite a bit more of a difference than you have said. Also because HD-DVD is already pushing the technology to the limit, blueray has a much higher potential size whereas hd-dvd is about done.

You keep going on about this coating which isn't even an issue.
Except for the fact that it increases the cost of production for Blu-Ray, which is at the very heart of the matter...
Not at all. Bluray discs are entirely different. They are not DVDs with a different coating. We dont know the cost of manufacture yet and the cost of a coating is irrelevant compared with the cost of getting high yeilds of suitibly formatted discs. HD-DVD also does not use a standard DVD pressing process so again will be more costly but because tolerances are lower on this it may well be more expensive than blueray to produce.

Have you not heard of scratch proof DVDs? CDs and DVDs are manufactured to different specs by different manufacturers already.
Have I heard of them? Yes. They're more expensive then the standard media, because they go through an additional manufacturing phase. They are also nothing but marketing gimmicks, as CD's, DVD's and HD-DVD's are very scratch resistant to begin with.Their data layers are covered by a protective cover layer with a thickness of .6 mm, and their "pit" sizes are larger and thusly less susceptible to scratching.
Again you show your ignorance. They are available at the same price as standard discs. The tradeoff is one of refexivity not cost.

Also I believe you are highly underestimating the consoles influence. For a long time far more people had ps2 or xbox than a standalone dvd player and it is what brought DVD to the general public.
As I recall, people purchased standalone DVD players. They'd buy their kids the game consoles, but they would buy themselves DVD players. I don't know anyone personally who bought one of the next-generation consoles for anything but playing games, most everyone I knew simply didn't buy DVD players until they were affordable.
The largest market for games consoles is 20-30 age range, conveniently also the largest market of DVDs. So not kids/parents at all. If you look at figures for the DVD market it shows that DVD sales had an 80% boost as the ps2 and xbox came to market and shallower increase as cheaper players became available. The largest hurdle was the licensing of players and bans on importing non licensed players from asia. When these bans were lifted the market really took off but this was some considerable time after it had become a standard mainly based on the affordability of the consoles as players.
Posted: Sun, 25th Jun 2006, 4:24am

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Kid

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alpha54 wrote:

I agree with A Pickle 100%. HD-DVD is less of a hassle, is cheaper for me to acquire and lets me keep more of the consumer freedoms I should be legally entitled to. I know what I want, and I definitely ain't Blu-Ray! smile
Well obviously you would agree with cheaper prices and less drm. However a pickle's statements are not based on fact at all. In reality DRM on both is equally much harsher than DVD and really will depend on the individual studio which is likely to put similar restrictions on the same title on both formats. Cost of Blueray to manufacture will be less than HD-DVD in the near future, whether these savings are passed to the customer we will have to see. Blueray is technically a much better format and it will be a shame if it loses simply based on misconceptions.

Also its important to note that when you buy a dvd/hd-dvd/blueray disc you are not legally entitled to go making copies at all. Common sense is what says you are, not law. 'Fair use' is a term that is banded about very liberally but not so often actually applicable.
Posted: Sun, 25th Jun 2006, 4:33am

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Serpent

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Atom wrote:

I'm just saying that BluRay will have a boost due to the PS3, not that the PS3 will cause it to come off on top.


I won't continue this here, because you make good points, but who's to say the UMD flopped? Maybe it's not exceeding as highly as hoped, but I see people buying UMD movies and games ALL THE TIME. (primarily from Target, which I pretty much consider the better Wal-Mart)

Blu-Ray has my prediction. Endo-story.
Blu-Ray has my prediction as well. Maybe PS3 will help it a little, who the hell knows. I just don't think it will help too much at all.

As for UMDs, it DID flop. I agree, Target kicks Wal-Marts ass, but that doesn't matter, Wal-Mart still sells more, and is MUCH bigger. UMDs did flop, it's a fact. Most big studios are dropping the format, as did Wal-Mart (read up on how big Wal-Mart is, you'll be surprised...) Sony lost money with the format and it's really a known fact that the format for movies flopped. It's kind of being phased out, they didn't sell well at all and Sony reps admit to it. unsure Sorry.
Posted: Sun, 25th Jun 2006, 4:33am

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Kid

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Serpent wrote:

Ok, these are the reasons I don't think the PS3 will be as common in the home as the PS2 was, and Sony just recently failed at UMD format. The PSP was going to kick it off and for portable media it flopped. Their software, mainly the movies, have been failing miserably, especially with the biggest media distributor in the world (Wal-Mart sadly) stopped selling UMD movies. I think Universal was the big film company that stopped outputting films on UMD. So I don't think the PS3 will be their main weapon for getting Blu Ray out there. Hopefully they will try other, cheaper hardware options so they can spread the format more than my predictions for the PS3 owner population. You may reply to me, but I'm done, I've made my points on why I think the PS3 will fail. Keep in mind, I am active in the video game community online and an official member of the press, so I have heard all sides on the matter and not much anyone says is going to alter my prediction or opinion.
Well it was pretty obvious that UMD was going to flop because most journeys people use psps on are short and who is going to buy the same film twice so they can watch it on a titchy screen as well as at home. UMD failed because it was a stupid idea rather than because it was a technically bad format, same reason as minidisc failed really.

HD provides significant benefits over dvd so I think one or other fomats will be succesful. Which one really depends on the initial market grab and any unforseen problems with one or the other formats. Neither really has any big feature benifit over the other yet. I think that being on the ps3 and the less proprietary format of blueray it has a bit of an advantage providing they do bring the costs down fairly quickly.
Posted: Sun, 25th Jun 2006, 4:44am

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sfbmovieco

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I don't think anyones still refuted any of the points from the article I posted. I think they both will flop.
Posted: Sun, 25th Jun 2006, 4:55am

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Garrison

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Serpent wrote:

1. The copyright system they put on the PS3 will not allow you to buy used games or rent games from places like Blockbuster. (The second one might be changed if Sony makes a special rental copy of every game. o_0) Also, you CAN'T bring your games to your friend's house without your console etc. to play it because of this technology they are implementing.
Is this true? Good Lord that's not going to go well for them if you can't rent a game to try it before spending $60 or$70 buying.

Serpent wrote:

As for UMDs, it DID flop. I agree, Target kicks Wal-Marts ass, but that doesn't matter, Wal-Mart still sells more, and is MUCH bigger. UMDs did flop, it's a fact. Most big studios are dropping the format, as did Wal-Mart (read up on how big Wal-Mart is, you'll be surprised...) Sony lost money with the format and it's really a known fact that the format for movies flopped. It's kind of being phased out, they didn't sell well at all and Sony reps admit to it. unsure Sorry.
The primary reason I never bought a PSP was the UMD format. I was willing to buy those 3-1/2" disc movies to play when I travel IF I could play them in my regular DVD player. Since you couldn't, I never saw myself picking up another format. Especially since I have a video iPod.

Definitely taking a wait-and-see attitude over this format war.

I think that unless there is a player that can play both formats, this is going to make it difficult for video editors since you would need two different machines to burn HD-DVD and Blu Ray to make sure you have both options for a customer.
Posted: Sun, 25th Jun 2006, 4:00pm

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DigiSm89

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sfbmovieco wrote:

I don't think anyones still refuted any of the points from the article I posted. I think they both will flop.
Ditto. I think it's a bit too soon for another format. It would seem just now people are giving into the concept of home theater systems.


But I am interested in Blu Ray for its storage purposes...
Posted: Sun, 25th Jun 2006, 5:36pm

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Serpent

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Garrison wrote:

Serpent wrote:

1. The copyright system they put on the PS3 will not allow you to buy used games or rent games from places like Blockbuster. (The second one might be changed if Sony makes a special rental copy of every game. o_0) Also, you CAN'T bring your games to your friend's house without your console etc. to play it because of this technology they are implementing.
Is this true? Good Lord that's not going to go well for them if you can't rent a game to try it before spending $60 or$70 buying.
Sony might fix the rent a game thing somehow, but they announced the technology, said what it did, said you can not buy used games period, and the rest is logic and they didn't justify any of it with anything, so most people believe that's how it's going to work. If you can't play used games on your system, then surely you can't play your used game on your friend's PS3. Same goes for renting. Sony has yet to comment on the renting games or bringing games over as far as I'm aware.
Posted: Sun, 25th Jun 2006, 6:09pm

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Hybrid-Halo

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I can confirm that.

A few retailers are also stopping 10 day refund type schemes on the launch too. (I'm looking at you, GAME).
Posted: Sun, 25th Jun 2006, 6:15pm

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Waser

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last I heard, that copy protection thing wasn't true

http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=65127

but then again, have they said something else in the past month saying otherwise?
Posted: Mon, 26th Jun 2006, 1:14am

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A Pickle

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Because you keep quoting prices now rather than what is possible in the future.
That's called economics. It's the reason people don't purchase the tip of the spear technology, because less advanced stuff will do the job nicely. I suppose this would have been part of your argument back when VHS won over Betamax? Betamax was a superior format. VHS was cheaper. Guess which won?

The whole reason blueray has taken so long is so that they can master the techniques to make a format that is easy to press and easy to make players for.
Except for that little part, where it isn't easier to press and make players for. It's a more complex disc, requiring not only much finer data pits but also the Durabis polymer coating. It also demands much, much more hardware-enforced DRM than HD-DVD. Blu-Ray drives and players have to be able to make that DRM work, now, don't they?

HD-DVD took shortcuts to produce a disc which is more complicated and works by simply throwing procesing power at it.
You keep saying this, and you have yet to justify it at all. Give me a link, a source, and maybe some reasoning behind this apparently "scrapped up" media format, and I might believe. As of yet, this point has simply been repeated -- not qualified.

Blueray is expensive now but HD-DVD is as cheap as it can be because of its complexity. HD-DVD will drop in price as hardware lowers in price whereas Blueray has a big drop in price possible with optimisation.
So what you're saying is (without any justification), is that Blu-Ray's cost will lower over time, but HD-DVD's won't? That's amazingly convenient for your argument. Do you have any sources or links that would seem to agree with this statement?

Blueray is cheaper because it is easier to make a higher density disc that will be read by a higher frequency laser.
Blu-Ray and HD-DVD both utilize 405nm blue-violet lasers. I might add, the laser has nothing to do with the expense of the discs, only the drives.

HD-DVD uses DVD technology pushed further to the limits. This means that the tolerance is actually tighter for the HD-DVD than the Blueray meaning it is more expensive to make.
So, your thesis is that we're stressing DVD technology to it's limits

Blueray is only more expensive initially because it is a new technology, once the processes are in place it becomes much cheaper than HD-DVD.
Once again, you have yet to justify why Blu-Ray would lower in price, but HD-DVD (for some reason), would not. That's a little bit too convenient for your argument, you should consider posting backing sources before typing something like that.

This is just goobledegook and really shows that you don't understand the formats/processes...
On the contrary, I seem to have a more intimate understanding than you do...

...and are just reeling off something you read in an article.
Yes, for the most part I am. It's called "Research." You might give it a try, sometime, rather than attacking someone for doing it when they raise a valid point in an online debate.

As I have said several times this coating thing is a total red herring.
Saying something over and over again doesn't make it true. The Durabis polymer coating was developed by TDK for the specific purpose of being applied to Blu-Ray discs for enhanced protection against the elements. It *might* have applications elsewhere, but the very existence of Durabis is for the protection of Blu-Ray discs.

If it's a total "red herring," as you say, then I implore you to provide some backup defending that statement. As I've seen, Durabis is an added step in the manufacturing of all Blu-Ray discs.

Also Blueray is not more fragile at all, because of the different laser it is actually less fragile than hd-dvd.
You should really start reeling off some stuff you read in articles, because if you did, you'd know that HD-DVD and Blu-Ray share an identical, 405nm blue-violet laser. That actually has nothing to do with the integrity of the discs themselves, which is more dependent on, say, the thickness of the cover layers (.6 mm on HD-DVD, .1 mm on Blu-Ray).

The drm is less complex than hd-dvd whether it turns out to be more restrictive or not.
Any proof or sources backing that statment?

Also the fact that HD-DVD uses the same data format is irrelevant because it is a different physical format as well as a different codec. DVD is based on MPEG2 and HD-DVD is based on MPEG4. Blueray is based on MPEG2.
HD-DVD and Blu-Ray have to be compatible with the exact same codecs, MPEG2, VC1 and H.264. HD-DVD is not "based" on MPEG4, nor will it utilize MPEG4. HD-DVD will use the H.264 codec, and Blu-Ray, as you stated, will utilize MPEG2.

Blueray is based on MPEG2. Blueray can be played by a 500Mhz pentium equivalent whereas HD-DVD requires a 2Ghz pentium equivilent.
Where'd you hear that?

This is before post processing which is also cpu intensive.
This affects both formats.

Can you see why the decoding hardware for HD-DVD is going to be more expensive? So why are Blueray drives more pricy, I hear you ask?
I can see why the processor would be more expensive... but no, I can't see why the decoding hardware as a whole would be more expensive -- particularly when current pricing schemes disagree with you. Toshiba's HD-A1 HD-DVD player has a 3.0 GHz Pentium 4 processor, 1 GB of DDR RAM, and 288 MB of flash memory. According to your standards, these units are considerably well beyond what's necessary to play an HD-DVD. Added to that is the fact that the HD-A1 is a poor design -- they could save money by going with a more specialized processor, rather than using a general purpose CPU like the Pentium 4.

This is because the physical reading of the disc is more complicated then for hd-dvd initially.
But over time, the reading of the disc will get less complicated for Blu-Ray only? What?!?

However because it is to a lower tolerance than hd-dvd after the manufacturing process is setup yields will be higher and costs will be lower.
You are not infrequently using this word, "tolerance." Tolerance to what? What do you mean by tolerance?

Blueray has standard sizes of 25Gb and 50Gb. Therestically more. HD-DVD has a theoretical size of only 30Gb whereas current sizes are lower.
No, HD-DVD has [u]standard[/i] sizes of 15 GB and 30 GB, with a 45 GB disc possible in commercial production. Blu-Ray has 25 GB and 50 GB discs commercially, with theoretical sizes of 100 GB and 200 GB.

So quite a bit more of a difference than you have said. Also because HD-DVD is already pushing the technology to the limit...
You have yet to prove to me that it is.

... blueray has a much higher potential size whereas hd-dvd is about done.
Link?

Not at all. Bluray discs are entirely different.
That's entirely wrong. You can't seriously say that Blu-Ray discs are "entirely different." They are 12 cm discs that store data via microscopic pits on a spiral track. With that in mind, they are damn near identical to DVD's, however the fact remains that the formats are, at heart, different.

They are not DVDs with a different coating.
No, they're more complex discs with a coating.

We dont know the cost of manufacture yet and the cost of a coating is irrelevant compared with the cost of getting high yeilds of suitibly formatted discs.
The cost of a coating is hardly irrelevent, especially when you're talking about the high yields of formatted discs. This coating will be applied to all Blu-Ray discs. I imagine you'd very much appreciate if I ignored the fact that Blu-Ray has an added step of manufacturing that HD-DVD doesn't, but I'm not going to. The coating adds some cost to each disc. These discs are manufactured by the millions. The cost of the coating will reflect itself in the overall cost.

HD-DVD also does not use a standard DVD pressing process so again will be more costly but because tolerances are lower on this it may well be more expensive than blueray to produce.
HD-DVD uses the same pressing process as DVD, HD-DVD can actually be manufactured on existing DVD production lines.

Again you show your ignorance.
[/vader]

They are available at the same price as standard discs. The tradeoff is one of refexivity not cost.
You're right. One of the following links definitely isn't 65% more expensive than the other.

http://www.nextdaypc.com/main/products/details.aspx?PID=2669759
http://www.nextdaypc.com/main/products/details.aspx?PID=2563490

We could try OfficeMax, too...

http://tinyurl.com/odfzb
http://tinyurl.com/mdr2h

The largest market for games consoles is 20-30 age range, conveniently also the largest market of DVDs. So not kids/parents at all. If you look at figures for the DVD market it shows that DVD sales had an 80% boost as the ps2 and xbox came to market and shallower increase as cheaper players became available. The largest hurdle was the licensing of players and bans on importing non licensed players from asia. When these bans were lifted the market really took off but this was some considerable time after it had become a standard mainly based on the affordability of the consoles as players.
Eh, I can live with that.

Well obviously you would agree with cheaper prices and less drm. However a pickle's statements are not based on fact at all.
Nope, that's why I'm the one who has links to back myself up. Definitely no fact there whatsoever.

Cost of Blueray to manufacture will be less than HD-DVD in the near future, whether these savings are passed to the customer we will have to see.
Once again, you lack sources to back yourself up.

I feel inclined to add my input on your statement regarding cost of production, HD-DVD can be manufactured on existing DVD factory lines. Blu-Ray cannot. That's millions of dollars, perhaps even billions, that are in HD-DVD's favor.

Blueray is technically a much better format and it will be a shame if it loses simply based on misconceptions.
Misconceptions like... consumer freedom?

Also its important to note that when you buy a dvd/hd-dvd/blueray disc you are not legally entitled to go making copies at all. Common sense is what says you are, not law.
On the contrary, you are. Legally, you are entitled to make a single backup disc for personal backup purposes. Studios don't have heartburn with people who copy their media, they have heartburn with people who copy it and distribute it to others. In order to stop those who abuse their copy rights (by distributing the media in an unauthorized manner), studios will copy protect DVD's. Still, this doesn't change the fact that you are legally entitled to make backups of your DVD's.

So it's not just common sense, it's also the law.

http://www.eff.org/IP/DMCA/20030314_321_studios_pr.php
Posted: Mon, 26th Jun 2006, 1:21am

Post 39 of 45

TimmyD

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Hehe, the patience these people have to push their point...
Posted: Mon, 26th Jun 2006, 6:13am

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er-no

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I read a long time ago that Blu-Ray is for girls only.
Posted: Mon, 26th Jun 2006, 1:24pm

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Simon K Jones

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FAO: A Pickle & Kid

You may find this link of interest.


On the matter at hand, I think both format will have a rather hard time. The general public have only recently embraced DVD, in the grand scheme of things. Having now built up sizeable DVD collections, the last thing people will want to do is re-invest in hardware and discs again.

DVD succeeded because VHS was old and had been around for ages - even then, it took many years to properly take off. I'd say the PS2 had quite a lot to do with it, as well as the porn industry probably.

However, it's only been about 5 years since DVD got really big...I can see mainstream consumers being pretty pissed off. Also rather strange that manufacturers are shifting formats already, when they could have milked the DVD market for years to come.
Posted: Mon, 26th Jun 2006, 1:38pm

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Landon

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Personally, I think HD-DVD will win over, but will take a while to happen whichever one dominates the media. The only people that really buy these things right after they come out or people who like to be "up-to-date" on all the latest technology. I don't think any of the general public will be buying either of them until they have a really good idea of which will win. No one wants to end up with a player that nobody supports anymore, like the Betamax.

I won't go into detail about why I think HD-DVD will win, but I think their main strength as the price difference. Do you think that the average consumer is going to spend $1000 on a system that plays equal quality of its $500 equal. If you are going to spend a thousand dollars on a player, than why not get HD-DVD, and then spend the other five hundred getting a good assortment of films? Anything can happen, but I expect that we will see studios gradually shift more support to HD-DVD in the future.

Regards,

-Landon
Posted: Mon, 26th Jun 2006, 1:51pm

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Xcession

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Rating: +1

For my 2c, i just thought i'd point out the blindingly obviously:

One is called HD-DVD. The other is called BluRay.

Put yourself in the position of random Jo Consumer who's wife bought him a DVD player last christmas and since then hes bought a couple of DVDs every month. He doesn't know how it works, he just knows that it works. He doesn't keep up with consumer electronics, but judging by the number of adverts between Eastenders and Who Wants To Be A Millionaire, knows that its probably good. He was a p*ssed off that all his years of VHS purchases are now incompatible, but what the hell, at least it wasn't his money he spent on the dvd player and the DVDs are roughly the same price.

Which of the above would you think he'd choose as the next step up from the current mainstream format, DVD?

The clue is in the name: HD-DVD. Half the marketting is already done, and with the current hype of HDTV, its more like 80% of the marketting done.

BluRay is going to require a f*cking PR miracle to be considered a viable alternative by non-technical mainstream consumers.
Posted: Fri, 30th Jun 2006, 4:08pm

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Serpent

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Apparently BluRay came out on top. "In light of a currently unsustainable manufacturing and distribution model and a stated willingness to devise a new compromise standard, Toshiba's long-term commitment to the HD-DVD format appears questionable."

"Sony has called Toshiba's bluff in the format war, and Toshiba has responded with a 7,500 unit launch at the expense of $1.5 million in losses and pleas for unification."

http://gear.ign.com/articles/715/715613p1.html
Posted: Fri, 30th Jun 2006, 4:18pm

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Joshua Davies

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Looking at who is behind the standards its hard to see Blu-ray failing even with Xcessions marketting points.

Many people seem to see Blu-ray as a Sony product but there are far bigger companies supporting it - the 2 biggest (by far) elecronics companies (Panasonic and Hitachi) in the world are totally behind Blu-ray.

Beyond that the biggest PC maker (Dell) and the most fashionable PC maker (Apple) are all commited to Blu-ray. Then add some of the other big names like Hewlett-Packard, LG, Mitsubishi, Samsung, Sharp who are all also on the Blu-ray bandwagon rather than HD-DVD.

The electronics companies supporting HD-DVD don't even compare in size of power.

All the film studios are backing both appart from the following last time I checked...

Universal = HD-DVD
Fox = Mainly Blu-ray
Sony Picture = Blu-ray
Disney = Blu-ray

With all this support and PS3 (going to the biggest next-gen console unless something very odd happens) supporting Blu-ray out of the box I think its impossible for Blu-ray to fail, unlike HD-DVD which has no massive consumer device shipping with a drive. All the same I don't see HD-DVD failing either.

There are already players ready which play both HD-DVD and Blu-ray from a single drive - give it a year or 2 and this will be standard I think. Their won't really be a winner and within a couple of years nobody will care at all. I think we can be pretty sure DVDs will start to be killed off as soon as companies can get hardware for Blu-ray/HD-DVD out at a decent price. HDTV sales are already picking up loads and if the studios have the chance to remake all thier money (people buying HD versions of all their DVDs) they will make sure it happens.