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Borat and America: possible spoilers

Posted: Mon, 6th Nov 2006, 4:55pm

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nanafanboy

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I saw Borat this weekend and I must say that I have not laughed that hard in a while. This movie is comedic gold, but there was something that really bothered me.

most (not all) of the americans in the movie were rude, racist, ignorant fools. I was actually outraged at some of the remarks made by them. Especially that old man at the rodeo that demanded Borat shave his mustache so he wouldn't look like a muslim, and then went on to say he wanted to hang every homosexual in the country.

I want to lay this out so that anyone who might think all americans are like that will understand.

THESE PEOPLE ARE THE MINORITY!!!

most Americans are not like this. Now I am not saying that we are unfairly portrayed in the movie, but it seems like only one side is shown. I suppose the proof would be our media and television. Television caters to the majority, and in america we don't have gay bashing racist T.V. shows. Nearly everyday the likes of John Stewart (bless that man) and any show on the discovery channel celebrates the diversity of our country and puts down those who ignorantly believe America should be the land of the Christian and the home of the white.

I don't know why this bothered me so much but I know a lot of the fellows on here are from the UK and other parts of Europe. I can't help but wonder what other countries think of us.
Posted: Mon, 6th Nov 2006, 5:23pm

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Sollthar

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I can't help but wonder what other countries think of us.
You don't wanna know what the general conceipton of the US is in the rest of the world, trust me. smile


Allthough obviously, you're right. "The american" exists as little as "the european", "the jew" or the "terrorist". Never the less, it's often loud minorities that are heard in the whole world and the silent majorities ignored. Every country has to deal with that.



Will watch Borat when it's out on DVD, looking forward to it!
Posted: Mon, 6th Nov 2006, 5:47pm

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Simon K Jones

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Good posts both of you. I haven't seen the Borat film yet, but I've seen enough clips to know what nanafanboy is talking about. Clearly the film is using the worst examples to make a point (as well as to make for more comedy), although it's always depressing that such ignorant and prejudiced people exist, even if they are (hopefully) a minority.

Minorities often tend to be louder than majorities. Sometimes that can be a good thing - for example, when it comes to equal rights for previously subjugated minorities.

In other cases, organised minorities can quite easily skew the perception of the actual reality. Such as the way the current US government system would imply that to be Atheist is a Bad Thing, whereas there's almost certainly a considerably large group of Atheists in the country - many more than, say, Jews. but because Atheists aren't a united group by definition, they don't get a voice.

Social dynamics, gotta love 'em. smile
Posted: Mon, 6th Nov 2006, 5:49pm

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nanafanboy

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you are probably right Sollthar... I don't want to know

What I do want to know is this: When I (or my American brethren) post in the forums, and show our movies in the cinema... do the folks on this site and the folks who run this site look down on us because we are from the U.S.?

I mean I am aware of the things going on in my country... I am aware of our so called "world policing". I am aware that my government is trying to violate people's rights by banning same sex marriage... but when you look at us is that what you see?

I just... I don't know. I disagree with a lot of what's going on politically in this country and I have very mixed feelings about our war on "terror", and I don't want to be viewed as this vile faceless American. I don't want people to think (especially the people I respect on this website) that I am a Nazi, because my government and some of my people are making poor decisions.

Maybe I am worrying too much about this... but there are days I don't want to be called an American sad

Just read Tarn's post: Before this goes any further (and possibly degrades) I would like to thank Tarn and Sollthar for handling this topic maturely and intelligently. I really wanted to post about this and discuss it but I was afraid that it would incite anger, or that the thread would be deleted.
Posted: Mon, 6th Nov 2006, 5:55pm

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b4uask30male

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Good thread and very good points.

The guy that plays Borat is from Staines (my friend peter used to drink with him many moons ago)
I've not seen the film yet, but I wonder if he's done what "team america" done for Korea?
I also wonder if the guy that plays borat watches american tv, i sometimes watch Jay Leno and he is forever taking the micky out of .. America.

The easiest way to make jokes is at the expence of others, but from what i've heard the film has done well on a limited release.

Did you hear that Universal has made a $40 million deal for his next film.
Posted: Mon, 6th Nov 2006, 5:56pm

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Sollthar

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You're dealing with a mostly intelligent community here at fxhome, so I don't think worries are necessary. I'd like to think the fxhome community doesn't jump to precudice just because a poster is from a certain country and I don't recall having seen that happen really, ever.

Personally, I couldn't care less what country someone is from - there's highly pleasant intelligent beings and utterly unpleasant idiots all over the world and scattered through all cultures and religions.

Of course, cultures are indeed different and I do find that very interesting to watch, allthough I try not to judge it as such - simply compare. After all, humans are a very fascinating thing. smile
And I think many people perceive it that way too.
Posted: Mon, 6th Nov 2006, 5:58pm

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Simon K Jones

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I'll certainly be keeping a close eye on this thread for any silly posts. wink

The trick, I think, is to present yourself as an individual. Then nobody can lump you in with any particularly category (good or bad). Then all you can be judged on are your own actions and opinions.

Personally, for example, I don't put any weight in my being English. That's just a coincidence of where I happened to be born. Describing me as 'English' is a gross over-simplification that doesn't really have much relevance to anything.

Sure, being born here and partially growing up in this country has influenced me massively, obviously, but I don't think of myself as specifically or exclusively 'English'. For example. smile
Posted: Mon, 6th Nov 2006, 7:10pm

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Garrison

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nanafanboy wrote:

What I do want to know is this: When I (or my American brethren) post in the forums, and show our movies in the cinema... do the folks on this site and the folks who run this site look down on us because we are from the U.S.?
I don't think that is the case. Especially here. I also believe that mediums like movies, books, art and things of that nature help to inform or transcend many people's views from afar. Directors, script/story writers and artists have a lot of universal appeal to others. They also give us access to worlds we never knew existed, and that's where (as Tarn said) the individual telling the story comes into play.

I haven't seen Borat yet either, but I'm told that it is a funny film, and grossly not Politically Correct. That bathing suit he wears is hideous on a man. doh
Posted: Tue, 7th Nov 2006, 1:31am

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Fill

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I agree with a lot of things nanafanboy is saying. I like, infact, love my country, but it's hard to love my country with such a screwy government. Well, more the government's abuse. It seems now a days in America you can't get away with anything but can get caught for anything.

I've read in articles the stupidest things that people are being sued for. Stuff like, "I was offended by a joke in this e-mail, so I'm going to sue my job $2.2mil."

Stuff like this has me thinking. Everyone wants to be free. Yet, on the other hand everyone doesn't want to be offended. It's quite redundant.

(No this is not to suck up to the FXhome team) I personally like how England works better. The government controls the media. Our media never really says the straight facts. Most of the news stations are democratic so they always twist stories to make Bush look like a bad leader. And I've noticed they use the SAME picture of him looking like a monkey every time they report about him! I like free speech, but it's gone too far. Further than the people that founded it ever thought it would go.

Like I said before, I love my country, but it really bugs me how the government is abused.

Regarding the movie. It looks funny, but stereotyping Americans is a bit iffy.

I don't think it'll bother me though. South Park makes fun of everything. Sometimes humor isn't meant to offend, but to make people laugh.

Sorry if I went a bit crazy there.
Posted: Tue, 7th Nov 2006, 1:34am

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Waser

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This was a brilliant film, and you all know how I feel about the US and all that. SHA-ZAM
Posted: Tue, 7th Nov 2006, 1:35am

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Bryce007

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Seriously, I cried with laughter.
Posted: Tue, 7th Nov 2006, 2:34am

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Dancamfx

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I saw the borat movie this weekend and I cant remeber the last time I laughed so much at a movie. If you havent seen it, go or you will be missing out!
Posted: Tue, 7th Nov 2006, 4:05am

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SGB

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One of the things I like best about this forum is that so many of the people are intelligent enough to not be prejudiced against others just because of where they're from or what they believe in. I certainly am not proud of some of the things the American government has done, and I would hope that the loud minorities don't reflect on the rest of us.

This movie looks absolutly hilarious, but i can't help wondering: what do the people from Kazakstan think of it?

Too bad there's nudity. would deff see it otherwise.

SGB
Posted: Tue, 7th Nov 2006, 4:16am

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Marek

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SWG, I wouldn't say that's entirely correct. At least as far as the media goes. I actually wouldn't be surprised if the US media was, in fact, controlled by the government. Just the way they hardly report on things that are affecting US citizens very profoundly (such as the military commissions act). Which they say has no effect on citizens, only aliens; when in reality the actual document never clearly states that citizens cannot be affected, just that anyone deemed an 'unlawful enemy combatant' which also has a hazy definition.

Anyway, saw Borat on Saturday. I haven't laughed that hard in a while. Pretty funny, pretty non-politically correct; but that's part of it's charm.
Posted: Tue, 7th Nov 2006, 4:24am

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Serpent

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"Borat" chose Kazhakstan because we're basically ignorant of their culture. He could basically make things up and get away with it. It is really not meant to parody the people of Kazhakstan or anything.

I can't wait to see it this Friday.

Anyways, I am embarassed by the ignorant Americans that are portrayed (or even documented) in media like this. Some people just piss me off. In Virginia, we are voting to amend the Constitution to define marriage being between a man and a woman. You already can't get married here, what is the point of this? How is this affecting you? Why are you actively trying to do this? People here have signs saying "vote 'yes' for marriage", which implies they are supporting this. Now, a huge part of our government is seperation of church and state. But these idiots think America is a Christian nation (when it was founded by Deists, go figure), and gays are bad, and muslims are angry terrorists. These mind sets piss me off. Think what you want, but don't exploit it and make the American steriotype be what you are. Extremes on either side of the liberal-conservative scale are usually idiots, but the uber-conservatives portrayed in the rodeo scene, for example, (which I've seen) they're just embarassing. Luckily, they really are the minority. But they're enough to make me sick.

I've heard all the steriotypes, and when I'm out of the country I wish I could be called anything other than "American," these people have ruined it and give American a bad name (and it didn't just start recently, obviously). I suck at making points, but I guess you see what I mean.
Posted: Tue, 7th Nov 2006, 5:36am

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Gnome326

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I have to say that this movie is one of the funniest things I've seen in a long time. Though one of the scenes I found to be the funniest was when he went to the church. With everybody running around and everything, it was just lunacy. I personally vulue people having faith in some sort of higher being, but come on, it gets to a point where it's just very obsurd. lol
Posted: Tue, 7th Nov 2006, 6:41am

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ben3308

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I'm going to have to agree with the overall sentiment towards America on here. In the film, Borat comes to my hometown and visits an antiques shop, a hotel, and a few other places; in all of which he is treated poorly or addressed stupidly, like stupid, hick Texans. As a resident of Dallas, I represent the majority of the city: middle class, educated, and somewhat liberal. Most of the stuff in the movie is a complete misrepresentation of anything it seems to 'portray'.

One thing I've noticed from noting things in the trailer that weren't in the movie(like him doing a war re-enactment and many other things in trailer 2) is that Sacha Baron Cohen does many, many, many skits with people, and he picks the funniest/most ignorant ones of the bunch, so clearly, even he knows not every American is like that.

That being said, I saw the movie with a little "Borat party" group of about 20 people from my school, most of them Jewish, and we all laughed our arses off. I didn't think the whole nude fight was that funny, but a guy next to me actually fell over crying when he saw it. Go figure, I guess I was wrong, haha.
Posted: Tue, 7th Nov 2006, 6:58am

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pixelboy

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I'm sad to say that I'm a little offended by some of these posts. I am an American, and I am proud to be. I also happen to hold the rather strong belief that homosexuality is not right. However, I am also disgusted by the sentements of the man in the "Borat" rodeo scene, which goes to show that any viewpoint can be taken too far.

However, the impression I seem to be getting from some here is that even by holding the beliefs that I do, I am ignorant, judgemental, and generally foolish. I suppose that my point is that my views are as valid as that of anyone else, and I am a bit insulted at the negative outlook toward a conservative viewpoint that seems to be present in this thread. I am certainly open to intelegent debate, but I also believe it is important to avoid being unkind or harsh to anyone, no matter your viewpoint.
Posted: Tue, 7th Nov 2006, 7:22am

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NuttyBanana

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Borat doesn't do Americans any favours but it's blatently obvious that the clips used in his movie and shows are the worst / funniest out of the bunch, and probably more shocking than the deleted scenes.

I never thought bad of America in general but did have a bit of a grudge towards the people in the clips used as they came over pretty arrogant and mardy.

Don't be so hard on yourselves guys and don't be offended. Everyone knows what Borat is about, if it's not your thing then stay away and ignore it. I hope tht anyone that watches his show and this move will understand the humour used and know that what is portrayed isn't exactly America itself.

This film is hilarious though...X X how much?
Posted: Tue, 7th Nov 2006, 9:08am

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Simon K Jones

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Rating: +1

SWG wrote:

I personally like how England works better. The government controls the media.
Wha? We have a free press here too, in fact it's generally more free than the US press, I would say - seeing as how, especially at the start of the Iraq war, any questioning voices in the US were instantly attacked as being 'unpatriotic'. The UK generally has a far stronger history in the press of questioning the government's policies.

However, all countries (even those with supposed free speech) have government control of the media to some degree. It's just a matter of how much. At the moment, for example, the UK press is putting an utterly absurd emphasis on 'the Muslim problem', no doubt encouraged by the government's general paranoia.

Our media never really says the straight facts. Most of the news stations are democratic so they always twist stories to make Bush look like a bad leader.
Isn't that a fairly new thing? From my observations over the last few years, the press has been overwhelmingly pro-Bush, or at least 'on the fence'. It's only recently with Olbermann's excellent (in my opinion, anyway!) speeches that the US press has grown a bit of a spine again.

I like free speech, but it's gone too far. Further than the people that founded it ever thought it would go.
Ridiculous. Go live in an authoritarian dictatorship for a few years, then come back and say the same thing. Freedom of speech and thought is not something that should ever be underestimated.
Posted: Tue, 7th Nov 2006, 10:37am

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Sollthar

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I'm sad to say that I'm a little offended by some of these posts.
I'm sorry to hear that. You shouldn't be.

Clearly, it's not just about people having certain viewpoints - the disturbing thing is WHY people have certain viewpoints and HOW they behave towards other people with it.

As a constructivist, I happen to believe that every viewpoint can be argumented for or against (which doesn't equal every viewpoint is "okay" or "valid"!) in more or less social or intelligent way. I had discussions with people who had the same viewpoint as me; and I was arguing from the other side simply because I found their arguments to be shortsightened and sometimes plain stupid.

Everyone of us belongs to several peer-groups (be that a "christian", a "democrat", a "coffee drinker", a "PC user", a "smoker", a "film maker" or whatever else there is), that doesn't mean inside such a group people are all the same, have the same ideas and way about them. They just happen to have one certain common base, if even that.

And I agree with you, every view can be taken too far. And this is the important point.

I am certainly open to intelegent debate, but I also believe it is important to avoid being unkind or harsh to anyone, no matter your viewpoint.
If that is true, then this already makes the important difference between you and the people who served as a negative example. So you shouldn't be offended, nothing here was aimed towards you.
Posted: Tue, 7th Nov 2006, 9:10pm

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Fill

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Tarn wrote:

SWG wrote:

I personally like how England works better. The government controls the media.
Wha? We have a free press here too, in fact it's generally more free than the US press, I would say - seeing as how, especially at the start of the Iraq war, any questioning voices in the US were instantly attacked as being 'unpatriotic'. The UK generally has a far stronger history in the press of questioning the government's policies.

However, all countries (even those with supposed free speech) have government control of the media to some degree. It's just a matter of how much. At the moment, for example, the UK press is putting an utterly absurd emphasis on 'the Muslim problem', no doubt encouraged by the government's general paranoia.
Hm, I always thought that the UK government controlled the news station. I guess I was wrong.

Our media never really says the straight facts. Most of the news stations are democratic so they always twist stories to make Bush look like a bad leader.
Isn't that a fairly new thing? From my observations over the last few years, the press has been overwhelmingly pro-Bush, or at least 'on the fence'. It's only recently with Olbermann's excellent (in my opinion, anyway!) speeches that the US press has grown a bit of a spine again.
I have to disagree with you here. Fox News Network is the only highly Republican news station that I know of. I still think the media is influenced by democrats, who like to use the news as propaganda against Bush. I'm no huge fan of Bush, trust me, but it sickens me how he's criticized so much. For example, president Clinton. He was a downright idiot. He's one of those people that can look you straight in the eye and lie to you. The media wasn't on his tail all the time saying what he was doing wrong. They praised him as a great leader.

I like free speech, but it's gone too far. Further than the people that founded it ever thought it would go.
Ridiculous. Go live in an authoritarian dictatorship for a few years, then come back and say the same thing. Freedom of speech and thought is not something that should ever be underestimated.
You can't argue with such an extreme. Obviously someone from Cuba under a power hungry leader would love free speech, and all the rights we have, but it can easily be used as a way to mentally harm someone. For example: It's perfectly legal to be racist. Wrong, but legal. You might get beat up, if even killed, but it's legal! "It's a free country! I can do what I want!" See what I mean?
Posted: Tue, 7th Nov 2006, 9:19pm

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sfbmovieco

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Free speach is one thing. But the press do not have freedom of speach. Tarn you say, "The UK generally has a far stronger history in the press of questioning the government's policies." That makes no sense. By definition, the so called press should not question nor side with the governments policies. They should report what is going on and leave it at that.

The press do not have freedom of speach because they are supposed to simply report what is going on, not give their overwhelmingly liberal opinion on what is going on. Now I know there are exceptions such as op-ed and so forth. But ready any AP/Reuters story and you will hopefully instantly see what I mean.
Posted: Tue, 7th Nov 2006, 9:39pm

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SlothPaladin

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Something that bother me is people who let themselfs be sterotyped into a group, and take up that groups beliefs becouse it's easer then thinking about about the issues and resoning out which side they will join. I'd guess that 50-90% of all voters fall in to this catagory regardless of party. People say they don't like sterotypes and that everyone is free to be themselfs but most really seem to like being lumped into some group, it makes life simple: Vote for this party, listen to this music, watch these TV shows and so on.
Posted: Tue, 7th Nov 2006, 9:44pm

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sfbmovieco

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SlothPaladin wrote:

I'd guess that 50-90% of all voters fall in to this catagory regardless of party.
There will never be a candidate who believes 100% of the things that you do...You'll find that you will have to make sacrifices as a voter to make sure the strongest ideals that you hold are reflected in the candidate and therefore in the passing or upholding of laws...I think your statement above is misleading...50 to 90 percent? That's a huge chunk! You may be right, but only because your 'guess' takes up a whole 40 percent!
Posted: Tue, 7th Nov 2006, 11:57pm

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Hendo

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SWG wrote:

Hm, I always thought that the UK government controlled the news station. I guess I was wrong.
I think you've been watching too much V for Vendetta. biggrin

King Rhymes wrote:

Free speach is one thing. But the press do not have freedom of speach. Tarn you say, "The UK generally has a far stronger history in the press of questioning the government's policies." That makes no sense. By definition, the so called press should not question nor side with the governments policies. They should report what is going on and leave it at that.
I'm a bit confused. Why does the press not have freedom of speech? And why should the press not be allowed to question or agree with government policies (or activities or anything else)? And how is it 'by definition'?

According to the UN's Declaration of Human Rights (Article 19):

Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

Any person has the right to impart their opinion through the media. Whether a media company will publish your article/letter/opinion piece is another matter.

IMO, in a democratic government, the media can often perform a better job than the opposition party by keeping the ruling government in check. Watergate is one famous example that springs to mind.
Posted: Wed, 8th Nov 2006, 12:28am

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Penguin

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SWG wrote:

I have to disagree with you here. Fox News Network is the only highly Republican news station that I know of. I still think the media is influenced by democrats, who like to use the news as propaganda against Bush. I'm no huge fan of Bush, trust me, but it sickens me how he's criticized so much. For example, president Clinton. He was a downright idiot. He's one of those people that can look you straight in the eye and lie to you. The media wasn't on his tail all the time saying what he was doing wrong. They praised him as a great leader.
Both the Republicans and the Democrats screw with the news... and for everybody's benefit let's not get into the Clinton vs. Bush discussion.
Posted: Wed, 8th Nov 2006, 1:22am

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Waser

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SWG wrote:

I like free speech, but it's gone too far. Further than the people that founded it ever thought it would go.
I would watch your back, becuase I think Zombie Ben Franklin wants to kick your ass
Posted: Wed, 8th Nov 2006, 3:44am

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Pooky

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You do realize that government control of the media means they would be allowed to (and would) lie to their people? The whole point of freedom of speech is to be properly informed by knowing all sides of the argument... if you take that away and make all information be filtered by a single organization, you'll only get that organization's viewpoint. Which, by the way, is bad.

Having a single leader with total control over everybody is the perfect political system if that leader is a genius. Except in the real world, they never are. Ever. Most of the time, in fact, it's completely the opposite. That's why Democracy is said to be good: the people get to elect the people that control them.

By the way Canada has freedom of the press too wink
Posted: Wed, 8th Nov 2006, 6:18am

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ben3308

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SWG wrote:

[For example, president Clinton. He was a downright idiot.
Those are some harsh words, my friend, especially when the current president is the only American leader yet that hasn't been able to string sentences together correctly.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but by the time President Bill Clinton was out of office, his administration had solved most of the country's deficit problems, had drafted the final forms of NAFTA, and had passed a number of anti-violence bills including the Crime Bill and the Brady Bill- the law that requires one wait 5 days after purchasing a firearm to use it.

Don't get me wrong here. I'm a Texan. I live in the Bible Belt, and I observe conservatice Christian values. But to call a President who did (what most would consider, anyways) great things for our country an idiot, especially when juxtaposed with America's lowest public-opinion rated leader to date is just ridiculous. It just shows how sad and convoluted American society is that we only remember a man who did many rights in his life for the few wrongs which he committed.

By the way, I've met George Bush in person (Texan, duh) as well as Bill Clinton (grandfather's former mayor of Fayetteville, AR); and when you meet them, Bill Clinton is obviously a man with more charisma, more intellect, and more tact. I don't think Bush has done a very bad job at all handling America in the past five or so years; but calling Clinton an idiot is just something you don't do.

Okay, now I'm done, end-o-political discussion for me, no matter what. biggrin
Posted: Wed, 8th Nov 2006, 9:15am

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Simon K Jones

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Hendo wrote:

IMO, in a democratic government, the media can often perform a better job than the opposition party by keeping the ruling government in check. Watergate is one famous example that springs to mind.
Agreed. I didn't really understand Rhymes' point.

However, it is crucial for the press to clearly differentiate between editorial and straight news. When the two get confused, you end up with highly manipulating 'news' that can influence the less aware members of the population - this is what tabloids are all about.

Decent newspapers, television news and websites always clearly mark editorial/comment/opinion articles, so you always know if you're reading the journalist's personal (hopefully informed) opinion, or whether you're just reading 'the facts'.

This is also why it's crucial to read as many papers and websites and watch as many TV news shows as possible, so that you can get a cross-section. This usually makes it easier to sift through any biased opinion and get closer to the truth. It's also vital to check international news, as news in your own country tends to have a goldfish bowl effect where it can't quite see what's going on.
Posted: Wed, 8th Nov 2006, 5:25pm

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sfbmovieco

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ben3308 wrote:

SWG wrote:

[For example, president Clinton. He was a downright idiot.
Those are some harsh words, my friend, especially when the current president is the only American leader yet that hasn't been able to string sentences together correctly.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but by the time President Bill Clinton was out of office, his administration had solved most of the country's deficit problems, had drafted the final forms of NAFTA, and had passed a number of anti-violence bills including the Crime Bill and the Brady Bill- the law that requires one wait 5 days after purchasing a firearm to use it.

Don't get me wrong here. I'm a Texan. I live in the Bible Belt, and I observe conservatice Christian values. But to call a President who did (what most would consider, anyways) great things for our country an idiot, especially when juxtaposed with America's lowest public-opinion rated leader to date is just ridiculous. It just shows how sad and convoluted American society is that we only remember a man who did many rights in his life for the few wrongs which he committed.

By the way, I've met George Bush in person (Texan, duh) as well as Bill Clinton (grandfather's former mayor of Fayetteville, AR); and when you meet them, Bill Clinton is obviously a man with more charisma, more intellect, and more tact. I don't think Bush has done a very bad job at all handling America in the past five or so years; but calling Clinton an idiot is just something you don't do.

Okay, now I'm done, end-o-political discussion for me, no matter what. biggrin
It just shows how sad and convoluted American society is that we can say, "BUSH LIED, BUSH LIED!" But no one seems to remember the outright bold faced lie on national television that Clinton told everyone. Hillary even called in a right-wing conspiracy. Nope, just good ol fashioned nob slobbin.
Posted: Wed, 8th Nov 2006, 5:56pm

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Waser

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well, I think people say that because Bush is currently in power. Doesn't seem too practical to say "BUSH LIED BUT SO DID CLINTON! AND SO DID MY BROTHER JEFFERY THAT ONE TIME HE BROKE MY NINTENDO! AND SO DID MOM AND DAD ABOUT SANTA!"
Posted: Wed, 8th Nov 2006, 6:44pm

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sfbmovieco

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That may be the case, but that shouldn't lead to Clinton looked upon so gloriously and Bush being condemned as a murderer. Clinton had plenty of people mysteriously die around him that knew too much.
Posted: Wed, 8th Nov 2006, 9:15pm

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Simon K Jones

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By the same token, the fact that Clinton had loads of problems doesn't negate the fact that Bush is also a hugely problematic President. It shouldn't just be about how they all compare to each other, but how successful they are here and now.
Posted: Wed, 8th Nov 2006, 9:23pm

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sfbmovieco

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Yes, but your definition of 'hugely problematic' is probably, in this scenario different than mine. If GWB is 'hugely problematic' then you don't want to hear my words for Big Willy.
Posted: Wed, 8th Nov 2006, 9:49pm

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Serpent

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Also, the media bashed Clinton to a high degree as well. I believe SWG negated that in his original post. Clinton was not an "idiot." Maybe you disagreed with him, but many democrats and liberals view him as a great leader. Not too many conservatives/republicans will stand up and say the same for Bush.
Posted: Wed, 8th Nov 2006, 10:57pm

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sfbmovieco

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Serpent, that is not true at all. That is merely your opinion, and I'm pretty sick of people putting their opinions down as fact. The media was mild to Clinton in comparison of how they get away with defaming the president of the US nowadays. It's pretty sickening. But after what Clinton did to the office of the presidency, I'm not surprised America is not a well respected nation.
Posted: Wed, 8th Nov 2006, 11:07pm

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Penguin

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King Rhymes wrote:

That may be the case, but that shouldn't lead to Clinton looked upon so gloriously and Bush being condemned as a murderer. Clinton had plenty of people mysteriously die around him that knew too much.
Okay, I guess we are discussing it. Clinton certainly acted immaturely when he was president, but is there anyone else here, Republican, Democrat, from the UK, or anyone who has EVER heard about Clinton assasinating people in the govornment?
Posted: Wed, 8th Nov 2006, 11:09pm

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Waser

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I remember people going balistic over Clinton, I mean, he was almost impeached for cheating on his wife. On the other hand Bush led the nation into a war that most disagree with, and can be argued to be unnecisarry (that is a matter of opinion), and he won't be impeached (don't think he necisarrily should either).

There is a difference between having sex with another adult woman and blowing up a bunch of Iraqis.
Posted: Wed, 8th Nov 2006, 11:21pm

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er-no

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I true must admit that I cried a few tears of laughter.

I know it was intentional and directly 'stupid humour' in some parts, but I feel it was a clever script that was performed very well, some people seem to forget that its an actor playing Borat, and for that reason its even more an accomplished film as it pokes fun in the right places and highlights some of the downfalls of society worldwide or not.

Very funny.
Posted: Wed, 8th Nov 2006, 11:24pm

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Hendo

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King Rhymes wrote:

But after what Clinton did to the office of the presidency, I'm not surprised America is not a well respected nation.
I obviously can't speak for every non-American who has an opinion about your country, but for my part (and I suspect many would agree) the current administration and their policies has had a worse effect on your country's reputation than Clinton's affair did.
Posted: Wed, 8th Nov 2006, 11:26pm

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Waser

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heheheheh I read er-no's post and was like "..wa...wha? Oh **** this topic is about Borat!"
Posted: Wed, 8th Nov 2006, 11:27pm

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sfbmovieco

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Waser wrote:

I remember people going balistic over Clinton, I mean, he was almost impeached for cheating on his wife. On the other hand Bush led the nation into a war that most disagree with, and can be argued to be unnecisarry (that is a matter of opinion), and he won't be impeached (don't think he necisarrily should either).

There is a difference between having sex with another adult woman and blowing up a bunch of Iraqis.
It wasn't about the sex. It was about coming out afterwards and him flat out denying to the American people. People say Bush lied. But I believe in his heart, Bush truly believes he is doing the right thing. I do not think the same can be said about Clinton getting a bj and in the following weeks looking like a fool when he gets caught in his own web of lies.
Posted: Wed, 8th Nov 2006, 11:34pm

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er-no

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Waser wrote:

heheheheh I read er-no's post and was like "..wa...wha? Oh **** this topic is about Borat!"
Yeah. I TRY and keep things on track Waser.

Unlike SOME people.
Posted: Wed, 8th Nov 2006, 11:38pm

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MrShmoe

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This is my view on the situation as a citizen of a country not involved in such things as the Iraq-war:

King Rhymes wrote:

But after what Clinton did to the office of the presidency, I'm not surprised America is not a well respected nation.
I can't speak for all swedes but I believe that the "Clinton-scandal" haven't nearly effected The United States' reputation here as much as the current administration has.

Right now in Sweden it seems like the general opinion of the U.S. isn't very positive, but I don't really think that people have something against the country, I think people just don't approve of the current administration and it's policies. And don't feel comfortable with such an government being that powerful.

King Rhymes wrote:

Bush truly believes he is doing the right thing. I do not think the same can be said about Clinton getting a bj and in the following weeks looking like a fool when he gets caught in his own web of lies.
Sure that might be the case, but just because a man believes that he's doing the right thing doesn't mean that he is doing the right thing. So the question is: What is the worst? Commit adultery, lie to the american public about it and in the end get cought with all the lies and realize that you did something wrong, or kill tens of thousands of civilians while removing a dictator from the power and believe you're doing the right thing?


and btw, I haven't seen "Borat" yet but it seems like an awesome movie and i have to go see it soon biggrin

Last edited Wed, 8th Nov 2006, 11:44pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Wed, 8th Nov 2006, 11:40pm

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Sollthar

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Bush truly believes he is doing the right thing. I do not think the same can be said about Clinton getting a bj and in the following weeks looking like a fool when he gets caught in his own web of lies.
So truly believing starting a war against another country is the right thing, ignoring environmental problems the rest of the modern world tries to solve is better then lying about cheating on your wife? Hm, that's an ethical system I truly don't understand... There's some cultural difference right there...

But yeah, the Bush government has managed to tear the US reputation down to a low - Clinton actually managed to raise it in Europe as far as I recall the public opinion. If anything, people here seemed to wonder less about the fact a man cheated on his wife and more about the american media and public making such a big deal of it.
Posted: Thu, 9th Nov 2006, 12:27am

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sfbmovieco

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You know, the real problem is why America gives a hoot at all about what Europe thinks of us.
Posted: Thu, 9th Nov 2006, 12:32am

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Sollthar

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You know, the real problem is why America gives a hoot at all about what Europe thinks of us.
Yeah, we should generally stop giving a hoot what other people think and just mind our own business. I've always said it, damn people just don't wanna listen. :I
Posted: Thu, 9th Nov 2006, 12:50am

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sfbmovieco

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Well Sollthar, I think my comment came off a little too strong but I think it's true. When we as people start caring about what other people think, we drop our own values (or lack there-of) and start to be people we are not. Whether that is based on creed, political affiliation, etc, etc...In this situation, Europe is not responsible for the success or failure of what happens in the states, only America is. Therfore, when America starts to worry about its image, we pander to others and ultimately lose our true identity...As people or as a nation...
Posted: Thu, 9th Nov 2006, 1:04am

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Kid

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Pandering to the rest of the world would make America better at the moment though. The opinions of others are important because they guide us to be better people or countries.

A lot of America's problems with terrorism and diplomacy at the moment are exactly because they ignore everyone else and do what they feel like.
Posted: Thu, 9th Nov 2006, 1:05am

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Sollthar

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Hm, I guess I'm again being too european for that statement, as I believe the exact opposite is true: only in constant exchange with other countries/nations/cultures you can find your true identity - because an identity should never be something still, but always in constant development.

Europe is not responsible for the success or failure of what happens in the states, only America is.
On the contrary. Todays world is so global, that all our actions and efforts or lack therefor have a direct influence on the rest of the world. With that comes a responsibility towards the rest of the world.
Especially for an undeniably strong country as the US.

we pander to others and ultimately lose our true identity...As people or as a nation...
I'm not sure if you're aware of that, but that very thing was said by a pretty famous country leader. You may have heard of him, he had quite an impact on the world in the 1940s...
I guess extremes never do anyone any favor.

but I think it's true.
I'm well aware of that. Which is why you'd have seen a worried and sort of baffled impression on my face if we were talking in person right now.
Posted: Thu, 9th Nov 2006, 1:13am

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Serpent

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King Rhymes wrote:

Serpent, that is not true at all.
That is merely your opinion, and I'm pretty sick of people putting their opinions down as fact.

We are having a discussion here it really bothers me when I have to finish my point with the acronym: 'IMO.' Seriously. And honestly, I don't care what my leader does in his spare time. I don't care about his morals. He lied afterwards, but about what? Who cares? Maybe the people around him, but honestly it shouldn't really be anyone elses problem. He did something wrong, but it should have only affected 3 people. As long as he can run the country I live in well and doesn't screw me, or anyone over. This is something I think Clinton did well. I also think the media has every right to bash our current President. Comparing Clinton's scandal to George Bush's disgusting, horrible foreign policy and affairs is, IMO (see what I mean, superfluidy of words, of course it's my opinion), disgusting. Oh, and by the way, again, this is my opinion.

Last edited Thu, 9th Nov 2006, 1:18am; edited 2 times in total.

Posted: Thu, 9th Nov 2006, 1:13am

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Fill

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I haven't checked on this topic for a few days so I'm a bit new to this whole "What countries think of other countries debate".

To Ben, regarding me calling Clinton an idiot: Maybe it is wrong to call him an idiot, but I just don't like him. He has that dishonest look in his eyes.. *shudders*. I'm not for the Republican or Democrats, but unfortunately(IMO) many of the Democrats that run/ran for president are fence riding non-sense talkers.

Algore: Claims global warming will kill us all in 2010 and takes credit for inventing the internet.

Kerry: Fence rider. Tries to make everyone happy.

Clinton: Has a tendency to start another life. A sex-life to be exact.

It's not the party. Just the people lately are a bit wack-o.

Regarding Europe's opinion of America:

This is one of the reasons I'm sometimes embarrassed to be an American. I've chatted here and there with people from Europe, and they have such a negative opinion against America. It's actually quite disturbing.. confused
Posted: Thu, 9th Nov 2006, 1:22am

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Kid

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Well I dont agree with what you say at all SWG but at least you say it in a decent way with some degree of reasoning.

(I see 'fence riding' as being more balanced rather than acting to an extreme. To me it seems that Clinton made great progress for the US, who cares if he slept around?)

Its people like Rhymes acting to the stereotype, thinking that nothing matters outside of America or even his own personal viewpoint that give the bad impression to the rest of the world.
Posted: Thu, 9th Nov 2006, 1:35am

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Sollthar

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Yeah, it's actually the attitude that King Rhymes shows that carries the main reason for the bad reputation the US has - and the mentioned lack of understanding for the world wide environmental problem that SWG dismisses so easily - which is basically falling under the same cathegory: Ignorance for the world outside the US borders until they become of financial interest.
Posted: Thu, 9th Nov 2006, 1:53am

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ben3308

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I think the leader of a country is allowed to have a personal life separate from his life as a leader. Yes, Clinton lied about having sex with Monica Lewinsky, and was almost impeached (was called to trial by the House but never sentenced, same thing happened to Nixon before he resigned); but that's a facet of his personal life, and it shouldn't affect how he runs the country. Yes, it may be somewhat of a measure of his character, but do you honestly think any other President hasn't dabbled around with people other than their wives? Especially George Bush, a former Texan drunkard frat boy, of all people! Bottom line: Clinton had personal problems, but they were mainly caused by how unecessarily invasive the media and American public were of his life. Oh, and a fun side note: Clinton's 'lies' were justified, as he made sure fellatio wasn't listed as 'sexual relations' in the lawbooks before denying his charges. It was a workaround, yes, but not an 'outright lie' as some seem to be calling it. As long as a man can effectively run a country, it shouldn't matter what else they do, as long as it doesn't hinder their job.
Posted: Thu, 9th Nov 2006, 1:54am

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nanafanboy

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I've been pretty quiet for a while... time for my two (or 3 or 7) cents

Clinton: Balanced the budget fixed the deficit... he deserved a good BJ if you ask me.

Bush: Can't speak, can barely think, called our "enemies" evil. EVIL?!?!?! Not to mention foreign relations. I'm sure world leaders love it when Mr. Bush looks at them like you and I look at puppies "aww he's all cute and helpless". I think we all know why he got re-elected. After 9/11 he told the nation what they wanted to hear "They messed with us, now we are going to find them and kick their ass"

Mr. Rhymes: As Sollthar has said it is our duty as a country to know and respect the opinion and ideals of other countries. We can't ignore the rest of the world because they don't agree with us. We should look at them and say "If we are doing something that you find wrong, then please tell us why."

Ignorance is our countries biggest problem right now. Sure its easy to just say "this guy's the bad guy, we're the good guys, so lets go kill the bad guys" but the world doesn't work like that. We are a country in the year 2006 not a G.I. Joe cartoon. We can't just rally behind the president and go save the world. thats ridiculous.

bottom line: we need to wise up as a nation, Fix our Foreign relations, and keep our military noses out of other people's business.

America needs to get off our high horse, and learn that we are not the greatest country in the World. We are a country like any other country. This mindset of America rules and the rest of the world drools has got to end.

Its okay to be patriotic, but blind faith should be left to religion. Having blind faith in our government is just asking for trouble.
Posted: Thu, 9th Nov 2006, 2:04am

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er-no

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I've read everyones opinions and sides now, and I would add a mass amount of jargon to the topic, but most people have shared my opinion, typically sollthar. He however forgot to mention:

ENGLAND PREVAILS!


smile
Posted: Thu, 9th Nov 2006, 2:32am

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Fill

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er-no wrote:

ENGLAND PREVAILS!
Aside from politics there's a rather special case. Joby a.k.a. er-no.
Posted: Thu, 9th Nov 2006, 2:32am

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Gnome326

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Yes, Clinton lied about having sex with Monica Lewinsky,
Wait, isn't she fat?
Posted: Thu, 9th Nov 2006, 2:54am

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Sollthar

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Wait, isn't she fat?
horizontally challenged, if you please...
Posted: Thu, 9th Nov 2006, 2:57am

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ben3308

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She wasn't at the time, I don't believe. Robust, one might consider, but not fat like she is nowadays.
Posted: Thu, 9th Nov 2006, 10:41am

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Simon K Jones

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One quote I've always rather liked:

"Clinton screwed an intern. Bush screwed the entire country."

Anyway, I think Sollthar has expressed most of my own opinions already. Isolationism and sticking your head in the sand never got anybody anywhere. If you never test yourself against others, then you'll never know the true measure of what you are. It's in interaction with others that true character is found - avoiding that is just cowardly, and suggests an inherent dysfunction somewhere.
Posted: Thu, 9th Nov 2006, 3:58pm

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drspin98

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I don't have any strong hate or love for Bush or Clinton, but if anyone thinks the Clinton's biggest breach of public trust was cheating with some zaftig intern, they are overlooking a few issues, or only watch CNN.
Posted: Thu, 9th Nov 2006, 8:10pm

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NickF

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going with my host brother to see it this weekend hopefully (original version, French subtitles in Luxembourg razz)

I will comment after I have seen it, but from what I have seen already (and like other people have said in this thread from what I have read) it shows the loud minorities for comedic purposes

People have to learn to laugh at themselves if they want to enjoy life wink
Posted: Fri, 10th Nov 2006, 7:50pm

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nanafanboy

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Oh yeah, don't get me wrong it was hilarious. It just made me think, you know? though, maybe thats what it was meant to do.
Posted: Sun, 12th Nov 2006, 5:19am

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SGB

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I just saw the movie, and frankly, I was dissapointed. I guess with all the hype about it i was dissapointed with the real thing.

I did however think it was a hilarious movie. I was laughing hysterically most of the time.

One suprising thing i noticed: when Borat is speaking to his kazaki friend (the fat one), he speaks in Hebrew. His friend does not however. Suprisingly the words he spoke in Hebrew were very accurate to the subtitles. There were some mistakes however; he refered to the wedding he planned with pamela as "Chavita", or "omellete".

Turns out Sacha Cohen is a religious Jew. Over the holidays he blessed one of my friends in synagogue. Very cool.
Posted: Sun, 12th Nov 2006, 5:19pm

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Evman

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Oh fun how did I miss this.

Borat was a hilarious movie. I haven't laughed so hard in a very long time in the movie theater.

He's stereotyping other nations as well as the USA all together.

I didn't see the remarks from the rodeo official about wanting to get Gay people hanged as depressing. I saw it as very very funny. It's just funny how someone can be that dumb.

If you haven't seen it, go see it now. You won't regret it.
Posted: Sun, 12th Nov 2006, 7:28pm

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NickF

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after seeing the film (in English/broken English with French and Dutch subtitles) I found it hilarious!

Some of the things were a bit too much even for me and my sick, twisted, warped and deranged sense of humour and vulgarity.

Some of the things were outrageously funny in the film and some of the trivia also ("The police were called on Sacha Baron Cohen 91 times during the production of this film." -IMDB)

I liked the film, some people won't because of the racist, sexist, crude, rude and outright disgusting comments made in this film. Those people have to realise that this is entertainment and no one is forcing you to watch it if you don't want to.

4/5

Conclusion:
Don't like it? Don't watch it!
Posted: Mon, 13th Nov 2006, 11:57pm

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Garrison

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Backlash to the film
Posted: Tue, 14th Nov 2006, 12:29am

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Kid

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Should read 'Borat victims upset at being exposed'.

If they wern't so greedy for the $400 they might have read what they were signing.

Its interesting that people are all talking about how it portrays Americans rather than how it portrays the eastern european country that he is supposedly from.
Posted: Tue, 14th Nov 2006, 12:33am

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nanafanboy

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Its interesting that people are all talking about how it portrays Americans rather than how it portrays the eastern european country that he is supposedly from.
There are plenty of people talking about how he portrays people from Kazakhstan. Namely... everyone in Kazakhstan.
Posted: Tue, 14th Nov 2006, 12:36am

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Sollthar

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*anal mode*

I doubt everyone in Kazakhstan saw the film or even knows about it though... smile
Plus I've heard people talking about it who were not from Kazakhstan either... smile
Posted: Tue, 14th Nov 2006, 12:41am

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nanafanboy

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"anti-anal mode"

I doubt everyone in Kazakhstan saw the film or even knows about it though
My point was just that the country is aware of the movie and the majority is unhappy. You can read about it all over.

Plus I'm not sure most people are upset with "the way he portrays Americans". The article wasn't about the way the movie portrays Americans in the first place. It was about the dumb people in the movie being angry about looking stupid.
Posted: Tue, 14th Nov 2006, 1:37am

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Waser

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that article about the back lashes makes me so happy. I'm mainly happy to see the frat boys were real.
Posted: Tue, 14th Nov 2006, 1:39am

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nanafanboy

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that article about the back lashes makes me so happy. I'm mainly happy to see the frat boys were real.
yeah... REAL DRUNK!!!

Yeah I was happy to find that out too. i was afraid that part was staged.
Posted: Tue, 14th Nov 2006, 9:18am

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Simon K Jones

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Kid wrote:

Should read 'Borat victims upset at being exposed'.
Or "Borat victims upset at being stupid."

Can't say I have much sympathy for them. That's what happens when you don't read contracts/license agreements/legal documents properly before signing them.
Posted: Tue, 14th Nov 2006, 1:09pm

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Penguin

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Rating: +1

nanafanboy wrote:


Plus I'm not sure most people are upset with "the way he portrays Americans". The article wasn't about the way the movie portrays Americans in the first place. It was about the dumb people in the movie being angry about looking stupid.
If they're angry about looking stupid then maybe they should stop being stupid smile
Posted: Tue, 14th Nov 2006, 1:14pm

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nanafanboy

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agreed
Posted: Tue, 14th Nov 2006, 2:46pm

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Kid

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Tarn wrote:

Kid wrote:

Should read 'Borat victims upset at being exposed'.
Or "Borat victims upset at being stupid."

Can't say I have much sympathy for them. That's what happens when you don't read contracts/license agreements/legal documents properly before signing them.
Kid reads the fxhome licence agreement... Goats!? Wait just a minute!
Posted: Sat, 18th Nov 2006, 1:01am

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Gnome326

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the lady at the dinner scene is sueing as well. They had her on the news and she was crying and everything. She also has Gloria Allred (or w/e her name is) supporting her. IMO, the whole thing is dumb, and I'm sure the contract will stand up to any law suit they propose. It doesn't even sound like they bothered to read the conctract, so its thier fault. They should have known better.
Posted: Sun, 19th Nov 2006, 4:04pm

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BuckskinBelly

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b4uask30male wrote:


Did you hear that Universal has made a $40 million deal for his next film.
Oh lord, please let it be Bruno.

I thought the film was hilarious and shows that a good number of Americans are racist. Yes, I know not all are, but I myself know quite a few of them, heh.

The best part though, was hearing my mother laugh hysterically at the naked man fight. I love taking my mom to disgusting movies.
Posted: Sun, 19th Nov 2006, 5:06pm

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shmede

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i love this film, it was hilarious

as for it not representing the majority of people in certain areas and just depicting a small minority, well would it be funny if it didnt?