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Ryan vs Dorkman 2

Posted: Fri, 2nd Mar 2007, 5:43am

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Redhawksrymmer

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Rating: +1

Hey everyone, just wanted to let you all know that Ryan vs. Dorkman 2 has now been officially released over at DivX Stage 6 and YouTube. It's currently downloading for me, but I think it's going to be awesome.

Youtube Link (Low-Medium Quality)
Stage6 Link (High Quality)
Posted: Fri, 2nd Mar 2007, 6:57am

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Atom

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In all seriousness, this video was even lamer compared to it's ridiculous hype than when those kids made that Splinter Cell movie.

The sound effects on EVERYTHING except the lightsabers was far too low and sucked up the good points of an entirely overdone and overhyped and under-cool production. Art of the Saber still takes my vote.

Last edited Fri, 2nd Mar 2007, 7:51am; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Fri, 2nd Mar 2007, 7:30am

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Darth Stazz the Powerful

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Atom, no way can you be serious about what you're saying. how can you say that the special effects in this video were lame? you have to admit that marks left on the wall by the lightsabers looked very real and when the lightsabers penetrated something, it looked real. and the lightsabers were very well made too. if you look closely at ryan's saber's reflection when he drags it across the puddle, you notice that it's rippling. and the sparks flying around when the two are fighting around all the hardware were real, recorded sparks. no offense, atom, but i disagree with your opinion and i say that rvd2 was great in effects, and fighting.
Posted: Fri, 2nd Mar 2007, 7:41am

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Bryce007

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I think this was pretty damn awesome technically.

If only they had worn proper Star wars attire, It could have been the best.....


But I'm well aware they whole "Ryan and dorkman" everyman characters are the whole point. Thus, no costumes.
Posted: Fri, 2nd Mar 2007, 7:48am

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Balketh

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That ranks up there with the Ep3 end fight. But TWO MASSIVE FAULTS, I noticed in the movie. at 00:42-00:44, Dorkman's lightsaber effect trails off straight, instead of curving with him

And: SPOILER!









When Ryan cuts Dorkman's arm off, it's all chunky and red. Lightsabers leave straight cuts, and cauterize the wound, leaving no red, IE: Ryan when he's severed in twain.

Apart from those two, it's the best fanfilm lightsaber movie I've ever seen.
Posted: Fri, 2nd Mar 2007, 7:48am

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Atom

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Bah, sorry. SFX= sound effects. I totally passed on that one. I meant soundwise, the experience was really rather ruined. Had they not been so hyped and overly funded, the product would look much better to me. The choreography was interesting to some degree, mostly due to the location, but otherwise uninspiring and for some reason a lot slower-paced than RVD1.

It's still one of the most technically solid SW works, though.
Posted: Fri, 2nd Mar 2007, 9:34am

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Sollthar

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Hehe, Star Wars geeks...

Well choreographed in places, allthough I'll admit, I stopped watching after about a 3rd in because a fight scene without a story is kinda boring to watch for me. And lightsabers do nothing for me.

Well made though. I predict a lot of "BEST MOVIE EVER" comments for them. wink
Posted: Fri, 2nd Mar 2007, 10:25am

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Xcession

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Technically, excellent. Thats it.

The effects were nice, but everyone has come to expect that from Ryan. Even so, the sabers, wall cutting, sparks, dismemberment etc are all things anyone with AE and a bunch of plugins could achieve.

The choreography certainly looked nice, buy was more like dancing than fighting. Extravagant and pretentious.

Of course what made the entire production look nice was the camera, but then they had a budget of $8-10k, so - go figure.

The whole problem with RVD, is that the premise, the plot, the entire story is not "two guys fight, one wins. omg". But rather "look how cool we are". It oozes conceit and inflated egomania. Shouldn't it be oozing plot, and tension?

As if their self-importance wasn't already painfully obvious, they release a teaser interview thing too, where they both pontificate and romanticise about what is really a meaningless effects test. They both know full well that their fanbase is now firing off knuckle children in unison to every unnecessary swoop and flamboyant pirouette.

I notice Ryan is now sporting a cute little tufty beard. Hes so manly.

Before someone says it - yes, I am jealous. I wish i had that money, that camera, and that following. But it still doesn't make this video anything other than 9m 58s of giving eachother a reach-around.
Posted: Fri, 2nd Mar 2007, 10:48am

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Joshua Davies

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Technically great yet again.

Most of the time the fighting didn't really work for me, was more like dancing with a lack of real impacts (they appeared to have to concentrate far too hard on remembering their moves). Art of the Saber does this kind of thing much better for me.

Given the great camera (I wish we could get round to using our HVX200) and the obvious special effects skills I would really like to see this team work on something which wasn't just another lightsword movie.

I know they are catering to a specific market so thats fair enough as it might be the only way they can get money together for these projects. I just hope that if they make Ryan vs. Dorkman 3 they select a few films to mimic rather than just Star Wars which we've seen done well (and badly) many times now.
Posted: Fri, 2nd Mar 2007, 11:45am

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Multiwagon

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I liked it.
Posted: Fri, 2nd Mar 2007, 1:59pm

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Jabooza

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I think in the beginning they started dueling to fast without an introduction at all and the punches and kicks were even cheesier than they were in the first one (and I never thought that was possible). But as far as lightsaber duels go it was really great, it had good choreography and the effects were really great. I liked the way they used the sabers a bit more with Ryan dragging his through the water and hitting the walls with them (although they did go a little overboard on hitting the walls [they did it too much]).

As I find this duel to be one of the best homemade lightsaber battles ever, in my opinion it still doesn't even come close to Anakin vs. Obi-Wan with effects or performance.


P.S. does anyone know if there's a place where I can download a non-HD version?
Posted: Fri, 2nd Mar 2007, 2:24pm

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skywalker dan

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firstly let me say i am a star wars fan ( not uber geek though) biggrin

and while i do like lightsabers, i'm also getting a bit bored of them. Yes the fighting was well done, and yes the effects seemed very well done, however it was just a bit too drawn out for me. and add that to the fact that the plot was non existant, i think it kind fell short.

i remember the first time i saw Art of the Saber and i was completely blown away by it, this just didnt provoke that much of a reaction in me (neither does AOTS now) but you get the point.

dan.
Posted: Fri, 2nd Mar 2007, 2:27pm

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Barnu

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Hi,

Technically it is great stuff. Great effects. Love it. Yes, there is no plot but they do not want to tell a story. Just perform a duel. And for me that was well done. One of the reasons I like RvD II was the brillant Camera.

Like schwar I would like to see them work "on something which wasn't just another lightsword movie."

Barnu
Posted: Fri, 2nd Mar 2007, 2:43pm

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Christofer Matthias

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Xcession wrote:

I notice Ryan is now sporting a cute little tufty beard. Hes so manly.

Before someone says it - yes, I am jealous. I wish i had that money, that camera, and that following. But it still doesn't make this video anything other than 9m 58s of giving eachother a reach-around.
I thought maybe you were jealous of the beard wink
Posted: Fri, 2nd Mar 2007, 2:46pm

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Xcession

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heheh, well it is particularly tufty and i have always fancied the "King Charles I" look....
Posted: Fri, 2nd Mar 2007, 2:47pm

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Artifex

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Technically impressive. The best elements were the little things like the saber drag through the water. Wall slashes were overdone. Choreography had some clever moments, but fell flat overall.

I must have been living under a rock or something because I completely missed the hype on this. Of course, had I heard about it, I probably would have immediately put it out of mind. Saber duels outside of story structure just don't do anything for me (and they have been so overdone that they do little for me even within a story). After watching it, I was thinking, "They actually hyped this?" I watched, mouth agape in disbelief, as the credits rolled and rolled. Dozens and dozens of credits in what is essentially an effects test with a three-man crew. It left me feeling much the same as I felt after going to Blockbuster Video and seeing that all 30 copies of "Larry The Cable Guy: Health Inspector" had been checked out. Western civilization is on the brink of collapse.

/sarcasm

Seriously though, I'm with Xcession. This is a grossly overhyped effects test, and an opportunity for Ryan and Michael to auto-fellate. It's fine for those who enjoy them. It just isn't for me. And for my money, the Ho Brothers are still the kings.

A pox on those who still find humor in the phrase "git r done".
Posted: Fri, 2nd Mar 2007, 4:02pm

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fxmaniac

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i thought that was brilleant i whatched this morning befor i went to school it was way good much better than there first one greate effects and very wel coreographed
Posted: Fri, 2nd Mar 2007, 4:12pm

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Hybrid-Halo

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Probably the best piece of lightsaber porn in existence. Although Lightsaber porn only exists as a slimy underneath of actual film.

In terms of Visual Effects - This is pretty accomplished. Though I'm absolutely with Xcession on this. The Two minutes of credits are a painstaking reminder of how much effort has gone into something which is really little or no progression over others of this fun though wasteful and overdone type of effects test.

As part of a film... Would have been amazing. For what it is, it's still exemplory and the audience it's intended for will love it. Just not for me. Hopefully the interest this generated will allow for some creative freedom for them.

-Hybrid.
Posted: Fri, 2nd Mar 2007, 4:23pm

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Darth Stazz the Powerful

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Atom, sorry for flipping out. when i saw SFX, i thought you were talking about the special effects, so if i gave wome attitude in my reply, accept my apology. Bryce007, you said that wearing proper star wars attire would have made this video better. i must disagree with you for 2 reasons. one reason is because the first rvd did not have any proper attire, therefore, wearing star wars clothing in the second one wouldn't really blend it with the first one. second, though this video did have lightsabers in it, it was merely a lightsaber fight and had no other part of star wars in it, other than the force. i believe that there are 2 seperate fan film sections, lightsaber fan films, and then star wars fan films. this was a lightsaber fan film.
Posted: Fri, 2nd Mar 2007, 9:39pm

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Fill

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Sollthar wrote:

Hehe, Star Wars geeks...
Yeah! swg33k!

I liked it alot. Usually when something good comes out it's done in a certain way that's hard to repeat. That's why sequels are so hard to accomplish. It's also the reason many sequels are overdone. I feared that Ryan vs Dorkman 2 would be this way but to my suprise it wasn't.

The effects in this movie were supurb. SPOILERS(Highlight to see):I loved the scars on the walls and such from their lightsabers. Even when the wall was in the background of a shot the scars were still visible. The arm was very nicely done, especially when the lightsaber moved it when Dorkman forcepulled it out.

That was almost the best lightsaber duel of all time(it's right up there with Duality). Great job to both of 'em.
Posted: Fri, 2nd Mar 2007, 9:55pm

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Evman

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Yeah, that didn't live up to the hype at all. The effects and fighting were all good, but it just lacked that extra... punch. As has been said, the Sound effects low volume really really made it seem not important at all. The arm effect looked bad compared to all the others and shouldn't have been left in that long.

Technically great, but not as good as it should have been.

Oh, and Dorkman doesn't have a clue how to limp or look hurt in general.

EDIT:

Upon a quick look on the TFN forums at these guys posts, I have yet to find one that is not conceited/arogant/egotistical. Even when talking to established members, they regard themselves as Gods. That alone is reason to not watch this.
Posted: Fri, 2nd Mar 2007, 11:12pm

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ben3308

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I thought it was pretty cool, and technically good. Mainly, though, if I had an HVX I wouldn't shame it by putting it to bad use either.

Hey I've got an idea! Let's give every teenage (or slightly older) group on here (De-Evolution, Atomic, Dennis and Ronnie, Atomised, Initial, whatever Bryce's is called, etc) 8 grand and an HVX and watch us all make better movies with less time than RvD2 was alloted. It would happen, I promise you.

And what I find sad is that this isn't even well choreographed. What makes Art of the Saber so great is that the choreography is very real and creative. Many moves are superfluous, but they later add meaning or intent to what is being done or how the fighting is progressing. Like flipping the saber around another person's saber and catching it, that's creative. RvD2 shows no such innovation.

But I still think it was a good try.
Posted: Fri, 2nd Mar 2007, 11:17pm

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Z28Jerry

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Rating: +1

Xcession wrote:

Technically, excellent. Thats it.

The effects were nice, but everyone has come to expect that from Ryan. Even so, the sabers, wall cutting, sparks, dismemberment etc are all things anyone with AE and a bunch of plugins could achieve.
begin sarcasm- Yeah, right, and that's why we see so many fanfilms and such with effects this good, cause it just atakes a few plug-ins and AE, not like it takes and real skill. Hell, you said it, anyone could make that. -end sarcasm


Wow, your all a bunch of little cry babies, lol. I watched it, and was entertained for 10 minutes. I could give a crap about the politics you all are whining about. Just because there was alot of hype about it, some people automaticly have a distaste for it. I see it all the time, a good song becomes popular and all of a sudden a whole segment of a base wont admit to enjoying it, cause they wanna be cooler than you, lol.

Give it up guys, it was fun to watch. The world didn't end, and I'm sure they didn't make it to piss anybody off.
Posted: Fri, 2nd Mar 2007, 11:21pm

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NickD

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ben3308 wrote:

Hey I've got an idea! Let's give every teenage (or slightly older) group on here (De-Evolution, Atomic, Dennis and Ronnie, Atomised, Initial, whatever Bryce's is called, etc) 8 grand and an HVX and watch us all make better movies with less time than RvD2 was alloted. It would happen, I promise you.
Do I count biggrin?
Posted: Fri, 2nd Mar 2007, 11:21pm

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Z28Jerry

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ben3308 wrote:



Hey I've got an idea! Let's give every teenage (or slightly older) group on here (De-Evolution, Atomic, Dennis and Ronnie, Atomised, Initial, whatever Bryce's is called, etc) 8 grand and an HVX and watch us all make better movies with less time than RvD2 was alloted. It would happen, I promise you.
Wow, I didn't think this hobby was a competition. You all are really showing a different side of yourselves now, huh? That's why I stopped playing guitar publicly, I am GOOD and can hold my own against damn near anyone in this area, however everytime I played out I got sick and tired of people like you sitting out in the audience shooting me dirty looks and getting all pissed off becasue they were not on stage or something. I would always here someone after a set mumbling "if I had an amp like that I could have played better than he did", lol. You know what, WHO CARES?!? If you don't like it, don't watch/listen to it and get on with your pathetic lives.
Posted: Fri, 2nd Mar 2007, 11:25pm

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Atom

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Evman wrote:

Upon a quick look on the TFN forums at these guys posts, I have yet to find one that is not conceited/arogant/egotistical. Even when talking to established members, they regard themselves as Gods. That alone is reason to not watch this.
Just because it's fun to look at, could you link up some of that egotistical attitude from TF.N?

Z28Jerry wrote:

Wow, I didn't think this hobby was a competition. You all are really showing a different side of yourselves now, huh? That's why I stopped playing guitar publicly, I am GOOD and can hold my own against damn near anyone in this area, however everytime I played out I got sick and tired of people like you sitting out in the audience shooting me dirty looks and getting all pissed off becasue they were not on stage or something. I would always here someone after a set mumbling "if I had an amp like that I could have played better than he did", lol. You know what, WHO CARES?!? If you don't like it, don't watch/listen to it and get on with your pathetic lives.
Wow. I must quote Billy Madison to give your post the proper rebuttal, so here it goes:

"What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. [disappointed] Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

That's pretty much sums it up. If you gave me 10Gs and 3 years I would've had the entire SC trilogy (that's right TRILOGY wink ) done and then some.

Last edited Fri, 2nd Mar 2007, 11:30pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Fri, 2nd Mar 2007, 11:29pm

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ben3308

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Z28Jerry wrote:

ben3308 wrote:



Hey I've got an idea! Let's give every teenage (or slightly older) group on here (De-Evolution, Atomic, Dennis and Ronnie, Atomised, Initial, whatever Bryce's is called, etc) 8 grand and an HVX and watch us all make better movies with less time than RvD2 was alloted. It would happen, I promise you.
Wow, I didn't think this hobby was a competition. You all are really showing a different side of yourselves now, huh? That's why I stopped playing guitar publicly, I am GOOD and can hold my own against damn near anyone in this area, however everytime I played out I got sick and tired of people like you sitting out in the audience shooting me dirty looks and getting all pissed off becasue they were not on stage or something. I would always here someone after a set mumbling "if I had an amp like that I could have played better than he did", lol. You know what, WHO CARES?!? If you don't like it, don't watch/listen to it and get on with your pathetic lives.
Hey man, I've played the hype game. I know I'm good at making movies, one of the best in the city I live in, and that includes all ages. But I know not to hype things, and I know not to sound arrogant, as was exemplified by my previous intently egotistical statement. RvD2 was succesful because the cameraman knew what he was doing, the composers performed well, and it had a HUGE fanbase to fund it excessively. Short of that, Ryan and "Dorkman" themselves just did some pretty impressive effects, coupled with lackluster acting.

Given similar resources, I could make a better movie. Perhaps not as well-received by a fanbase, but a better one. I'm not jealous, I know my strengths and weaknesses, as I'm sure other filmmakers here do. Hell, Evman and Pencil made a hilarious hour-long movie that kept many people's attention; I even invited people over to come watch it! Ryan Wieber could not do that. He's been coddled by his fanbase so much that he's losing sight of what modesty truly is.

I didn't say I didn't like RvD2, but even if I did, I'm completely entitled to criticize it. Hell, what do you think Roger Ebert does for a living? You can look at things subjectively and in context, exactly as I've done in reviewing RvD2. Get a grip, man.
Posted: Fri, 2nd Mar 2007, 11:45pm

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Evman

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Atom wrote:

Evman wrote:

Upon a quick look on the TFN forums at these guys posts, I have yet to find one that is not conceited/arogant/egotistical. Even when talking to established members, they regard themselves as Gods. That alone is reason to not watch this.
Just because it's fun to look at, could you link up some of that egotistical attitude from TF.N?
http://boards.theforce.net/fan_films/b10015/26283617/p3

After 2 pages of nothing but awesome comments and people spooging themselves, the only thing Ryan can do is to mock someone for being too excited to see HIS movie to read the first post.

No "Hey thanks for the comments guys, we really appreciate them!"

Just... "Hey go to hell"


Z28Jerry - I'm not even going to bother responding to you because I'm way to cool for that. Fight the Establishment man...
Posted: Fri, 2nd Mar 2007, 11:48pm

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Hybrid-Halo

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I actually think Ben3308 has a great point. Give someone/a semi experienced FXhomer a HD camera and an 8K budget and I'd be pretty confident that whatever they went off and made would be superior to a glorified Light Saber effects test. Granted, it's king of that genre. Though is this a genre that anyone in their right mind would dedicate 3 years and 10k to?

Perhaps not, though I'm sure that the sequel is largely the result of the fanbase's demands.

I just watched the teaser/making of trailer - it does sort of leave me with the sense that both Wieber and Dorkman are slightly egotistical - but you've got to be sometimes in order to pitch an idea, it doesn't affect my opinion of RvD2.

Z28Jerry, you're yet to really state your own impressions of RvD2 - which is what this thread is about. Instead you've jumped feet first into what I'll describe now as a swirling whirlpool of razor fanged wolves (namely : the others in these forums) who, should you persist which such inspired idiocy will be glad to rip you into a gazillion pieces.

I don't really feel personal achievement comes into play when critically - you assess something from the perspective of an audience member. Arguing the "If you didn't think it was good well *YOU* do better" is lame. I don't have to be able to play guitar in order to tell what guitar music I do or don't enjoy.

I'll give you the chance to post something interesting, though expect whatever you write to be read with a hawk-eye, especially after pretty much saying "Who cares what you think? Here's MY opinion!".

Regards,
Hybrid.

Last edited Tue, 6th Mar 2007, 5:28pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Sat, 3rd Mar 2007, 12:13am

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Serpent

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I thought it was fun. Good for what it was. But what I said right there is the pinnacle of what they will probably get out of this. If I had those resources, I would make a film, not an effects show that's been seen. I agree with everyone's comments about their attitudes. I respected them a lot more when they made 1 for fun for a choreography contest. But their arrogant reaction bothers me. I would do something with their popularity. Anyways, everyone gets budgets and deals. You could say "give that money to someone else and you'll end up with a better product." If someone deserves a budget, they'll get their chance (usually). I know a lot of filmmakers/video makers get undeserved budgets, but that's just life. Anyways, enough of that, here are my more on topic comments about it:

Set was cool, effects were top notch, footage looked great, choreography was pretty good. But their hand-to-hand combat always looks SO unnatural. This wasn't a big feature in RVD1, but I started to notice it in RVB and it showed here as well. It seems like their blocks are followed by goofy, unnatural spins off of it. If there was a QT version, I'd post an example, but I'm just too lazy to screen cap. I personally like AotS better because of the substance. Well, ^5 for entertaining your fellow geeks I suppose.
Posted: Sat, 3rd Mar 2007, 12:15am

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Corby

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if only they had worn proper Star wars attire, It could have been the best.....
except that the whole Ryan vs Dorkman scenario isnt supposed to take place inside the star wars univers. it simply takes the idea of what would happen if two people wanted to kill eachother and had lightsabers (and Lightsabers werent even created by George Lucas) so this could even just be seen as a short sci-fi film that has no plot juts action. I am a member on the tf.n boards and yes there are sme pretty arrogant people on there. recently in their lightsaber effects thread i posted a video i'd made using effectslab and only one guy would even comment on it because they're so prejudiced against anything not made by Adobe. I dont think it lived up to the hype but was a technically good film.
Posted: Sat, 3rd Mar 2007, 2:46am

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Thrawn

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I think they did a great job on this film. I admit it dragged out a bit in the middle but the fight was great. And though it didnt have a plot it was much more then "A lightsaber test" as some of you put it.
I hope to see more films from Ryan Weiber and "Dorkman" Scott.
Posted: Sat, 3rd Mar 2007, 3:04am

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Atom

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Serpent wrote:

I agree with everyone's comments about their attitudes. I respected them a lot more when they made 1 for fun for a choreography contest. But their arrogant reaction bothers me.
Haha, irony. I respect you and all Serpent, but that post sounded Remember this?

Now don't you feel silly for making such a spat earlier?

Serpent wrote:

Guys, stop freaking bashing Ryan Wieber, you don't even know him. Michael Scott, the other person in R v D knew Ryan over the internet very well. It would not be weird at all, the idiots on TV who go to stalkers houses don't know anything and they are ignorant and deserve whatever they walk into. Next, Ryan Wieber's passion is visual effects and whatnot. Making VFX based films and creating visual effects is really what he does. He enjoys it. Next, stop judging people as nerds. They like Star Wars, so what? You don't know him, he could have a very active social life. Who the hell cares? If he's having fun with Star Wars and lightsabers and internet folks enjoy it then let it be. I find it entertaining, you don't have to. But don't bash him personally. Another thing: the film is called Ryan Wieber vs. Michael 'Dorkman' Scott. It really isn't meant to be taken seriously. He slides his glasses up his nose with his forefinger for god's sake. Also, your making a Splinter Cell Fanfilm. Shut up. It's really no different. Maybe yours has a story, bbut he likes to innovate with choreography, visuals, and other fun stuff.

PS-This whole post was dedicated to Atom/ben3308, I lost track and you can tell why.
Posted: Sat, 3rd Mar 2007, 3:28am

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Bryce007

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I've got a feature film budgeted out at $10,000...

Combine that with shooting on an HVX200....


Well, Honestly, I'm sure they've done a better job with the money then me.
Posted: Sat, 3rd Mar 2007, 3:35am

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Fill

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Hell, give me a GL2 with a $500 budget and I could top Cover's Story. Seriously, this is a silly game. Yes, maybe you could top their movie with the same resources but can't you just appreciate their work? It's a lightsaber duel, what do you expect, an in depth story with some guy in a black mask yelling "Nooooooo!!!"? I think they've accomplished something great here.

I agree with Serpent when it comes to their arrogance. To me it seems like they're 8th graders pushing around the 5th graders because they're so much better. "I worked for Lucas Arts so I'm cool." WRONG. Lucas Arts screwed up the BEST Star Wars game EVER, Knights of the Old Republic II! And you know what? Ryan Wieber helped make that! So shame on you Ryan! Shame. On. You. razz
Posted: Sat, 3rd Mar 2007, 4:32am

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Serpent

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Atom wrote:

Serpent wrote:

I agree with everyone's comments about their attitudes. I respected them a lot more when they made 1 for fun for a choreography contest. But their arrogant reaction bothers me.
Haha, irony. I respect you and all Serpent, but that post sounded Remember this?

Now don't you feel silly for making such a spat earlier?

Serpent wrote:

Guys, stop freaking bashing Ryan Wieber, you don't even know him. Michael Scott, the other person in R v D knew Ryan over the internet very well. It would not be weird at all, the idiots on TV who go to stalkers houses don't know anything and they are ignorant and deserve whatever they walk into. Next, Ryan Wieber's passion is visual effects and whatnot. Making VFX based films and creating visual effects is really what he does. He enjoys it. Next, stop judging people as nerds. They like Star Wars, so what? You don't know him, he could have a very active social life. Who the hell cares? If he's having fun with Star Wars and lightsabers and internet folks enjoy it then let it be. I find it entertaining, you don't have to. But don't bash him personally. Another thing: the film is called Ryan Wieber vs. Michael 'Dorkman' Scott. It really isn't meant to be taken seriously. He slides his glasses up his nose with his forefinger for god's sake. Also, your making a Splinter Cell Fanfilm. Shut up. It's really no different. Maybe yours has a story, bbut he likes to innovate with choreography, visuals, and other fun stuff.

PS-This whole post was dedicated to Atom/ben3308, I lost track and you can tell why.
Not really. Back then, it seemed like they made it with a passion for Star Wars and visual effects. I am just saying I think they made #2 to win over the internet. In fact, I really don't see how you are relating my comment to that old argument at all. I still find the stuff fun, my most recent post regarding their videos only criticizes their personalities and reactions post fifteen minutes of fame. My views from last time would stand all the same. Until recently did I come accross prickish posts, and that documentary they made about their film. So, I appologize on account of myself for not predicting their actions. After the internet hype (years after RVD1), I really just thought this would be another fun video. But I'll stress it again, almost everything they have said since then is just not the same. If your post had been made AFTER I saw all that crap they put out, I really would not have cared. Otherwise, I wouldn't be agreeing with everyone here. My angry post back then was for a Ryan and Dorkman that seemed to just be having fun for a contest. I am sure they had fun with this, but their attitudes, as almost everyone's pointed out, are prickish. Since I feel like I am repeating myself, I'm going to stop there. wink

EDIT: For what it's worth, I am sorry about my behaviour in that thread as it has clearly stuck with you. I really just forgot to post it. I really don't want this to continue, because my views have changed based on the circumstances. So justifying my posts, almost 8 months ago seems stupid. Stuff happens in between.
Posted: Sat, 3rd Mar 2007, 7:38am

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ben3308

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Kyal wrote:

Hell, give me a GL2 with a $500 budget and I could top Cover's Story. Seriously, this is a silly game. Yes, maybe you could top their movie with the same resources but can't you just appreciate their work?
Haha, well speaking logistically, you'd have to have nothing but a GL2, a bootleg version of Vegas 3, and recycled notebook paper to print a script in red ink on. I'm seriously that low budget. I dunno if you could top it then with those resources. Hardly $500. Just hypothetical here, though, my friend. biggrin

I'm joking, obviously, but let me further my point.

Ryan Wieber regards anyone who dares disparage the beauty of his being with supreme arrogance. Coupled with his seemingly vast resources, I'd expect nothing short of amazing. The fact that his acting is worse than anyone myself or many teenage FXHomers has directed- with, granted, considerably less time, money, and equipment- makes me view his movie even lower.

What it boils down to here is one thing: talent, and Ryan W. has shown time after time he's got a just a little bit of it that he knows he can amplify through bragging and hype. He's amazing at special effects, don't get me wrong, but when he proclaims his forte to be all-out directing of "amazing" movies; then in my book he's just plain delusional. Bryce's action is better, my drama is better, Evman's comedy is better. Ryan just has....special effects. Hardly the meat of a movie.

But that's just my two cents...
Posted: Sat, 3rd Mar 2007, 8:35am

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fxmaniac

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in rvd2 in the credits they never credited any of there software unlike the first one how are they able to do this without a citificate to show that they are allowd
Posted: Sat, 3rd Mar 2007, 3:49pm

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ben3308

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I'm sure their AE license lets them use it without crediting it.
Posted: Sat, 3rd Mar 2007, 10:25pm

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fxmaniac

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whats an AE licence???
Posted: Sat, 3rd Mar 2007, 10:34pm

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NickD

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Short for After Effects License.
Posted: Sat, 3rd Mar 2007, 10:52pm

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Rawree

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Given that I havn't been in the loop for a while so havn't been subjected to any of the promo materials or trailers for this thing (although the idea that what is essentially one scene needs a trailer leaves me a tad dizzy) I'll crowbar in my supposedly impartial opinion.

I don't think it needs to be said again that this is technically brilliant and all the shiny effects impressed me but that should come as no surprise given the board I'm posting on. Clearly these guys know their audience and it certainly looks as though that's who they've made it for. They already had all the praise and admiration anyone could want from RvD and Ryan's stint at Lucasarts and all his other FX tests etc. As I can only really judge him on his work however all that says to me is that he's a bit of a one trick pony and in catering so directly to the TFN community like this knowing what sort of reaction they'll get from these people (who are already pumped full of Ryan and Michael love) I'm inclined to agree at least in part with Xcession's 'reacharound' analogy.
Posted: Sun, 4th Mar 2007, 3:47am

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Thrawn

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Like I said earlier in this thread I think Ryan Weiber did a great job. It seems to me that you guys are judging Ryans video on his additude. I think he deserves a little credit for making this amazingly choreographed video. Not only that but amazing effects.
Now im not saying your all wrong and you should never criticize a movie or the maker of it just that (in my very humble opinion) you should give credit where credit is deserved.

~Thrawn
Posted: Sun, 4th Mar 2007, 4:11am

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ben3308

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Thrawn wrote:

Now im not saying your all wrong and you should never criticize a movie or the maker of it just that (in my very humble opinion) you should give credit where credit is deserved.

~Thrawn
My main problem is that he's a complete credit hog when really his only input in the movie was the so-so choreography, bad acting, and great special effects. The rest was backed up by good music composition from fans and good camerawork from a hired hand. Not to mention the equipment and budget.

But the effects were really good, I'll give him that. I just don't think the "directing" skill is very good here.
Posted: Sun, 4th Mar 2007, 11:26am

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Arktic

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Rating: +2

Technically excellent, and it kept me interested for the whole six or seven minutes. The coreography was pretty good, not spectacular, but there were moments that made me smile (if you didn't find the bit where the lightsaber is force pulled right into that dude's face funny, then you have NO SOUL wink ). And it's certainly done what it set out to do. So, full marks from me all around, really.

I could sit here and criticise it, but you know what, I'm not going to do that, because I've not made something that's been watched as much or held in as high regard by such a large number of people - sure, give me $10k and a camera, and maybe I'd be able to do it.

But this is where a lot of people are missing the point - yes, they had a big budget, and they had a great camera, but they didn't grow those on trees. Somehow, they've managed to get a huge fanbase, and get huge levels of finance for their project, and for that I think they should be applauded.

For everyone who's saying "I could do that if I had the money/camera/equipment/help from fans"... go ahead and do it. THEN you can feel justified in your criticism - at the moment, it seems pretty unfounded and smacks of jealousy because you're not able to do what they've done, imho.

Cheers,
Arktic.

PS - Am I the only one who thinks that Ryan's actually just trying to look more like Tarn with his little beard? wink
Posted: Sun, 4th Mar 2007, 2:09pm

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er-no

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Just by looking at the credits list you can get an idea that this wasn't just the work of two people. That's what most people seem to be missing.

Personally, as I've always said, I dislike lightsabers, technically it was very good, with good use of effects, but I stopped watching after about 2-3minutes and skipped to the end.


Well done to them etc etc, but there was nothing here really, just a lot of people, time and money. A full production masked by the use of two 'geeks' that made a very good original amateur duel.
Posted: Sun, 4th Mar 2007, 3:52pm

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Atom

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Arktic wrote:

But this is where a lot of people are missing the point - yes, they had a big budget, and they had a great camera, but they didn't grow those on trees. Somehow, they've managed to get a huge fanbase, and get huge levels of finance for their project, and for that I think they should be applauded.
And you're correct. However, the problem with this defense is that most of their popularity relied on two things:

-Luck: Viral videos can sweep the nation, but that doesn't mean they're cinematic art. It's great that RVD became a viral video across the web, what isn't great is Ryan and Dorkman treating it as some godly thing or "internet phenomenon!" for doing so. It's a lightsaber video, not some compelling landmark internet film. And they're treating it like the latter. That's the problem.

-Self-Promotion: If there's one thing these guys can do really well (besides effects), it's self-promotion. Which, don't get me wrong, is a good thing to get people out there, especially in the filmmaking community. But, when this funding and all is treated like some serious arduous work, it all comes down to the fact that these guys probably just pretentiously hyped eachother to no end and sold themselves out to get the initial money.

That's petty to me, not professional.
Posted: Sun, 4th Mar 2007, 4:21pm

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NickF

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Good:
Lightsaber Effects

Bad:
No story
Sound
Acting
Almost the same as the first one

Final verdict: I couldn't give a Sith

Art of the Saber > Ryan Vs Dorkman (was thinking of changing the latter's name to give a connotation but I won't)
Posted: Sun, 4th Mar 2007, 6:51pm

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Evman

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Arktic wrote:


For everyone who's saying "I could do that if I had the money/camera/equipment/help from fans"... go ahead and do it. THEN you can feel justified in your criticism - at the moment, it seems pretty unfounded and smacks of jealousy because you're not able to do what they've done, imho.
Thats just the point, we can't. If we had that kind of money we'd surely put it to good use, but since none of us have it, we can't prove it. And as Xcession said, of course we're jealous, it'd be foolish to try and deny that we aren't. Who wouldn't be?

As for the film, I've found myself watching it a few times now, because it's rather pretty.
Posted: Sun, 4th Mar 2007, 6:55pm

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Sollthar

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Why would you be jealous though, seriously?
Posted: Sun, 4th Mar 2007, 7:38pm

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ben3308

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Don't we all envy pretentious tufts of facial hair, an arrogant demeanor, and a likely lack of social skills outside of our circle of friends?

God knows I do. biggrin
Posted: Sun, 4th Mar 2007, 7:46pm

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Evman

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I don't know if you can understand it as well Sollthar. Afterall you're just wrapping up a feature film in which you had a huge budget compared to what I have. You also have countless films which are basic classics on fxhome and elsewhere. Your videos have spread beyond your friends and have found larger audiences. This is because they are, well, good. They contain great stories and action.

Ryan and Dorkman however, just have lightsabers. They were just a little older than me when they made RvD, and then all of a sudden they get fame and funding for no reason other than they have pretty flashing swords. When you're my age, and you see something with next to no creativity made by essentially your peers gain so much respect... its simply frustrating. Jealousy is human nature, I'm not going to try deny that I'm human.
Posted: Sun, 4th Mar 2007, 7:53pm

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Serpent

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Am I the only one here who thought the sound design was nice? I never found myself questioning it and thought the music was fantastic. Maybe I'm missing something though, I'll give it a second watch I guess.
Posted: Sun, 4th Mar 2007, 9:25pm

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Bryce007

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This thread is getting really really funny. Especially aculag and Ben's posts. Classic material.
Posted: Sun, 4th Mar 2007, 9:50pm

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Sollthar

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Ah, thanks for the explanation Evman! I get what you mean.

Though between you and me, if I had to choose between you and those two, I'd chose you any day. wink
Posted: Sun, 4th Mar 2007, 11:51pm

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Rawree

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No matter what my opinion of this film or it's creators I have very little sympathy for the people who are criticising them almost purely on the basis that they say they could do better given the budget and equipment and blah blah blah. This may well be the case but but it seems more to me like they weren't just handed large sums of money for nothing straight off the bat; they've played their audience extremely well in order to be in that position. Instead of making these bitter and frankly pretty childish comments that they were your age when they started becoming popular and you're not and that you could do better with the same resources why don't you enjoy it (or not) and go back to the project that'll get the same response as this one has from TFN.

Without wanting to draw him into my argument too much (because this isn't a dig at him) you have to remember that someone like Sollthar has a similar status around these parts and, over the years, has earned the respect and dare I say worship of many a member.

Remember also that their aims are probably very different to yours with regard to film making. This sort of thing is made for the audience (and arguably for the ego trip that you get from a contented audience) wheras you probably make movies for yourself as the audience if that makes sense. A little more focus on your target audience and you could probably achieve similar levels of popularity. I know I'm rambling so ignore as appropriate.
Posted: Mon, 5th Mar 2007, 12:12am

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Fill

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I'll compare this movie to Vista. It's so shiny and pretty, but the inside of it is filled with errors.

Really, if I could ever think of a good lightsaber duel, it would be Duality. (I'm being a hypocrite here) Considering the amount of money spent on RvD2 compared to Duality I've gotta say that Duality beats RvD2 to a pulp. Especially for its time, Duality really set a standard. You know.. when the term 'lightsaber duel' didn't mean "hey we can hav a litesabr batl outside and itll be fun lol"
Posted: Mon, 5th Mar 2007, 12:15am

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Atom

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Evman, we're both pretty big opposing users on FXHome. Why don't we meet eachother in a random state and spend months together making a lightsaber-fight movie, purely based on our internet relationship, even though we've never met eachother in real life?

Oh, wait, no. Glad no one else did that, people would think they were weird.
Posted: Mon, 5th Mar 2007, 12:25am

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Rawree

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Atom wrote:

Evman, we're both pretty big opposing users on FXHome. Why don't we meet eachother in a random state and spend months together making a lightsaber-fight movie, purely based on our internet relationship, even though we've never met eachother in real life?

Oh, wait, no. Glad no one else did that, people would think they were weird.
Please just stop it, you're coming across as extremely childish and jealous and comments like that just take away all credibility away from any serious critique you may want to make.
Posted: Mon, 5th Mar 2007, 1:08am

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Evman

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Rawree wrote:

Atom wrote:

Evman, we're both pretty big opposing users on FXHome. Why don't we meet eachother in a random state and spend months together making a lightsaber-fight movie, purely based on our internet relationship, even though we've never met eachother in real life?

Oh, wait, no. Glad no one else did that, people would think they were weird.
Please just stop it, you're coming across as extremely childish and jealous and comments like that just take away all credibility away from any serious critique you may want to make.
Atom didn't seem at all childish or jealous in his last post, or I didn't see it. Now you're just reading childishness or jealousy into anything we say because you have it in your head that our opinions are worthless because of that.

You can't honestly tell me that you've never been jealous of anyone for anything ever in your life. I've explained and admitted to my jealousy at them, so you don't need to point it out like its some big revelation.

"If you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all" was for elementary schoolers. The film industry is a vicious one, and it's silly to say that you should only give positive comments. Negative ones are very necessary, especially if you've already pointed out the good things in a film.

As I said before, i've found myself watching RvD2 a few times now cause it's pretty. It's well done, no question, but its nothing new. Since it offers nothing overwhelmingly new for me to comment on, I turn to their presence behind the movie, which is frankly, more childish and egotistical than anyone posting in this thread has been.
Posted: Mon, 5th Mar 2007, 1:21am

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Hybrid-Halo

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I think part of why I'm finding it hard to appreciate RVD2 is simply because of the state of Star Wars as a franchise/medium. Back when RvD hit, the Stars Wars engines were revving up and the whole fan base were salivating for Star Wars. At that time, the atmosphere for LightSaber movies was perfect and RvD really earned a crown amongst LightSaber films.

Right now, Star Wars as a generation is really over. More over than it was before the sorry excuses for a trilogy were released. I can't help but look at anything Star Wars with almost embarrassment. A desire to walk up to anyone involved in anything star wars related, pat them on the shoulder and stare into their eyes knowingly saying "It's over man. It's over. Go home.".

Granted, RVD2 is by far the king of LightSaber movies - I think that opinion is pretty unanimous here. I'd just like to see the efforts spent elsewhere.

As for making movies with people you've met online - where it not for FXhome I'd never have worked on Nightcast or Between the Lines, and I met both Sollthar and Ash online. It's called networking... Finding people who share your goals so you can accomplish them together is a great thing.

-Hybrid.
Posted: Mon, 5th Mar 2007, 9:15am

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Rawree

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Evman wrote:


Atom didn't seem at all childish or jealous in his last post, or I didn't see it. Now you're just reading childishness or jealousy into anything we say because you have it in your head that our opinions are worthless because of that.

You can't honestly tell me that you've never been jealous of anyone for anything ever in your life. I've explained and admitted to my jealousy at them, so you don't need to point it out like its some big revelation.

"If you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all" was for elementary schoolers. The film industry is a vicious one, and it's silly to say that you should only give positive comments. Negative ones are very necessary, especially if you've already pointed out the good things in a film.

As I said before, i've found myself watching RvD2 a few times now cause it's pretty. It's well done, no question, but its nothing new. Since it offers nothing overwhelmingly new for me to comment on, I turn to their presence behind the movie, which is frankly, more childish and egotistical than anyone posting in this thread has been.
I don't think your opinions are worthless and even if I did surely that would say more about me than you wink. I don't know what seemed childish about his post, it just seemed like he was taking random shots at them for apparently no reason (a bit like "yeah she got the promotion but look at that horrible dress she's wearing". Y'know resorting to poking fun irrelevent aspects: e.g at the way they got together and filmed the original which seems like a rather odd thing to criticise.)

Jealousy is a funny thing really; the way it's coming across from a fair few people here is that they think its not fair that they don't have the fanbase or resources that RvD2 had and, because they could have done better things with said resources, these guys didn't deserve them rather than being jealous in a "Wow I wish I could do that" sort of way.

The film industry is a viscious one but do you not think in a way its just one big ego machine. There is a large "look at me, arn't I clever" element to it and often that's what it takes to get noticed.
I also didn't say that you should only give positive feedback, and I disagree wholeheartedly with that sentiment.

Hows about we forget this and you can run off and make some huge war epic or something that blows this out of the water! wink
Posted: Mon, 5th Mar 2007, 12:45pm

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Joshua Davies

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Wow, this post has blown up quite a bit since I last posted. I still think RVD2 is great technically and it makes me wish we could get to use our HVX200 for a movie.

I really look forward to Ryan doing something which isn't Star Wars based if he is interested in doing so. This is mainly because I think Star Wars is already beginning to restrict him (other than the quality of effects/camera RVD2 doesn't really move the game on since RVD).

I must admit I'm quite surprised RVD2 cost so much to make - anyone know if all the budget was spent on new camera/new computer/new software as its the only way I can account for it?

Those wishing they had RVD2s budget should just get out there and make something even more impressive with less or no budget - it is possible. Only last Friday I was reminded what is possible on nearly no budget if you put masses of time and energy in to your project. Me and Malone were lucky enough to be invited along to the premiere of Ashman's (yes, the FXhomer and beta tester) first film - Between the Lines.

There were over 250 people at the premiere and the film went down amazingly well. For all of RVD2 amazing special effects its not a patch on Between the Lines as a short low-budget film. At the end of the month we have been invited to Sollthar's premiere for NightCast - I'm already preparing to be stunned again!
Posted: Mon, 5th Mar 2007, 12:53pm

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petet2

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Rating: +1

I am intrigued by the direction this post has taken. The original question was along the lines of "what does everyone think of this movie" but the thread seems to have become more about what people think of Ryan Wieber as a person.

I haven't yet had the chance to see the second movie but thought that the first one was good as a show reel of special effects. From what I have read above the second movie seems to be a longer, better quality remake of the original.

Who is Ryan Wieber and why does he seem to arose such deep dislike in so many people? Do a lot of you guys know him personally?

A lot of the vitriol expressed towards Ryan seems to be because (a) he self promotes and (b) his film is not felt to be of merit.

Dealing with the second point first - I saw the RvD2 movie being listed as one of the top 5 viral movies on the Metro news web site in the UK so it is being widely passed around which implies that a lot of people like it. Yes I would rather make a film with a proper narrrative but the growth of YouTube et al is based upon the popularity of short video clips with no story. Personally I blame MTV for destroying the attention span of an entire generation.

As for the fact that Ryan self promotes and/or may not be a very nice person - I would say welcome to the movie business. There are thousands of people who want to get into film making in some professional capacity and very few who make it. I've no doubt that there are some very sincere and genuine people who make it big purely on talent but there are also a large number of capable people who succeed because they don't mind stepping on others and promoting themselves in front of the people that count. The same goes for the music world and probably the majority of entertainment jobs.

I'm sure I would find many of the rock bands whose music I love completely unpleasant self centred people if I ever met them. I'm sure the same goes for the actors I like or the directors whose work I admire and try to learn from. In the entertainment business you often need a big ego to succeed and people with big egos can be obnoxious!

I don't know Ryan Weiber and will never meet him. So why does it matter what sort of person he is when I decide whether or not his film is good?

If I had the money he did I'd make a horror film not a Star Wars film but again just because he likes a different genre doesn't make him wrong.

We are all different and we are all entiled to our own opinions. We can like a movie or not. We can criticise the filming and the effects. But what seems strange is that most people seem to be agreeing that the effects are well done in RvD2 but being critical because they don't like Ryan or because they would have made a different film.
Posted: Mon, 5th Mar 2007, 1:10pm

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Xcession

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I think this thread has descended into character assassination for the same reason this occurs in all walks of life.

I quite like mcdonalds burgers, but i don't like mcdonalds themselves due to the whole deforestation thing. Asking "what do you think of this film?" is the equivalent of "what do you think of mcdonalds burgers?", both being the 'product'.

I think i'd probably biase my reply to either question, with my views on the manufacturer. And why? because i feel its important people know what McDonalds do and why its bad. I supposed i'd feel i'm giving an important lesson in morality to persons who might be in a similar situation one day.

The situation is obviously different with McDonalds however, since money changes hands. Its far more justified to feel cheated or insensed about something if you've paid money for it as its a breach of trust.

Essentially though, i think the reasons for the change of tack in this topic are the same. A product reflects on the manufacturer and the manufacturer is inextricably linked with its products. No money has changed hands here, but i think humans naturally apply the same beliefs about consumer "rights" to any product whether its free or not.

"Mass deforestation and contribution to global warming in an effort to make people fat" is clearly a bigger sin than "being a bit of a show-off", but you can't underestimate how emotionally invested people get in modern consumer culture.
Posted: Mon, 5th Mar 2007, 2:07pm

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Sollthar

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Heh, bit of an odd thread indeed.

Hm... I don't know Ryan Wieber, nor the Dorkman - except from that one post he made on my filmmaking guide, which was a good and valid input.
Personally, I don't really care about either of them and don't really see what the fuss is about.

They made a lightsaber battle with some very good effects. And they promote themselves. Why not? Some will love it, some won't. Personally, it didn't do much for me and I move on. I'll neither like those guys nor dislike those guys anymore then I did before, nor do I hate or love their work. I don't envy them, nor do I feel threatened by them, nor insulted by them, nor feel close to them or feel like I'd have to name my kids after them.
It has simply failed to evoke any sort of emotion in me because I just can't connect to a lightsaber battle, being the Star Wars sourpuss I am.

I AM however most impressed with the music. I thought that was great! smile

And now I'll move on, you should do the same really. wink



Oh, and I fully agree with Schwar. This stands no chance against Between the lines. Now THAT is a movie!
Posted: Mon, 5th Mar 2007, 3:41pm

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JohnCarter

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I personally never heard of it before Bob from Detonation Films had sent me the clip because he worked on it.

It left me pretty indifferent because while I like the original Star Wars, most fights without emotional connections to the characters leave me cold. Oviously the people involved have worked very hard to do this on every front so I guess they have earned their bragging rights.

I saw the original after the sequel. It had better choreography IMO. This one had better effects and music.

But ultimately, why do people waste time and money making things like that when they obviously have a lot of talent and could do something original that they can call their own and make real money from will forever be beyond me... Heck, with all the hype they got from the first film, they have built in publicity for anything they'd want to tackle!

There's nothing wrong with making fan films per se... But I see something wrong in wasting so much energy, talent and money on something that will go nowhere ultimately... like this sequel. The original, to make a name for yourself, sure... But making a sequel was pointless in the grand scheme of things I think.

What is Between the Lines and where can we see it? I am always dying to see a good ORIGINAL indie flick!
Posted: Mon, 5th Mar 2007, 6:23pm

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NickF

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petet2 wrote:

From what I have read above the second movie seems to be a longer, better quality remake of the original.
Exactly, it brings nothing new to the metaphorical table. If it had an awesome story to go with the fight it would have been better (or if I had been 4 years younger like when I saw RvD)

I guess that seeing RvD made me want to get into SFX, which made me look for good quality programs which brought me to where I am today (FXhome). So, like the many film makers who got into the business because of the original Star Wars film, it kind of did the same for me.
Posted: Mon, 5th Mar 2007, 8:01pm

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petet2

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Maybe Ryan just made this movie because he wanted to...? I think he has the right to make whatever movie he wants to.
Posted: Tue, 6th Mar 2007, 1:36am

Post 70 of 164

Atom

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Xcession wrote:

I quite like mcdonalds burgers, but i don't like mcdonalds themselves due to the whole deforestation thing. Asking "what do you think of this film?" is the equivalent of "what do you think of mcdonalds burgers?", both being the 'product'.
This to an extent is true, but you're taking a big stretch of an analogy to make such a point. Sure, McDonalds burgers are good (I don't think so, but whatever), but there's only so much you can praise- so much "NEW" and "EXCITING" things-before you begin to criticize McDonalds themselves because, well, you're tired of the same thing and them hyping the same thing.

RvD2 isn't a burger, it's a movie. And, like Evman said, in the movie business there is no "just look at the movie ______ way. Or ______ way." Everything and everyone involved is subject to criticism for the mere fact that by hyping it they become part of the product they show. And we all know a bad presentation can turn anyone off from something spectacular.

Also, the deforestation thing. There's another huge difference here, in that, while McDonalds may sell great hamburgers AND deforest at the same time, in the same company, they don't tell you "We deforest" everytime you eat a BigMac, or say "We're destroying the world" everytime you congratulate the greasy goodness of a quarter-pounder with cheese. (hehe, like my analogies? and I don't even eat burgers)

I guess I see this not as just bashing Ryan and Dorkman over and over, more like qualifying and defending my initial assertion that they are pretentious overhype-ers that overdid a rather dull and useless venue: lightsabers.

I'm not denying that the film is technically proficient, or a solid work - only pointing out that where one wants to call someone godly for having a 'flawless' and 'amazing' product, in the same place they should judge the resources and character or skill of the so-called godly person.

If that makes sense.

schwar wrote:

Those wishing they had RVD2s budget should just get out there and make something even more impressive with less or no budget - it is possible. Only last Friday I was reminded what is possible on nearly no budget if you put masses of time and energy in to your project. Me and Malone were lucky enough to be invited along to the premiere of Ashman's (yes, the FXhomer and beta tester) first film - Between the Lines.

There were over 250 people at the premiere and the film went down amazingly well. For all of RVD2 amazing special effects its not a patch on Between the Lines as a short low-budget film. At the end of the month we have been invited to Sollthar's premiere for NightCast - I'm already preparing to be stunned again!
This is the attitude I like. While I personally didn't go in-depth defending the "I could have done better!" scheme, I'm glad theres someone who has found a happy medium inbetween. We shouldn't attack those who say they could make something better, we shouldn't put them down, we shouldn't sarcastically challenge or threaten them to it, but merely let them do as they say and get out there.

I know I would and am.

And finally, petey: While your post hold merit for defending someone from an unbiased view, and that's commendable, you throw around some huge misconceptions.

petet2 wrote:

I am intrigued by the direction this post has taken. The original question was along the lines of "what does everyone think of this movie" but the thread seems to have become more about what people think of Ryan Wieber as a person.
The way I see it, this would be almost entirely his doing, as the movie has HIS name in the title and HE is the focus of it, as well as HIS ability to create SFX. Furthermore, HE spread it around as a "phenomenon", thus linking him to the project and, like I said, making him part of the product.

I haven't yet had the chance to see the second movie but thought that the first one was good as a show reel of special effects. From what I have read above the second movie seems to be a longer, better quality remake of the original.
The first one wasn't intended as a 'show reel', it was a choreography contest that, once working on it, Ryan hyped to no end as an amazing feat. And what was it? I lightsaber movie. Again, this goes in with the ego mountain that piled-up to RvD2.

Dealing with the second point first - I saw the RvD2 movie being listed as one of the top 5 viral movies on the Metro news web site in the UK so it is being widely passed around which implies that a lot of people like it. Yes I would rather make a film with a proper narrrative but the growth of YouTube et al is based upon the popularity of short video clips with no story. Personally I blame MTV for destroying the attention span of an entire generation.
The bold part is a complete lie, and my reasoning to challenge the rest of your post.

As for the fact that Ryan self promotes and/or may not be a very nice person - I would say welcome to the movie business. There are thousands of people who want to get into film making in some professional capacity and very few who make it. I've no doubt that there are some very sincere and genuine people who make it big purely on talent but there are also a large number of capable people who succeed because they don't mind stepping on others and promoting themselves in front of the people that count. The same goes for the music world and probably the majority of entertainment jobs.

I'm sure I would find many of the rock bands whose music I love completely unpleasant self centred people if I ever met them. I'm sure the same goes for the actors I like or the directors whose work I admire and try to learn from. In the entertainment business you often need a big ego to succeed and people with big egos can be obnoxious!
The difference is, he's not a celebrity, he's not a movie star, and his audience, his benefactors and helpers, are ORDINARY people. And when you're dealing with ordinary people, you can't afford to be extraordinary.

(That is, pretentious and celebrity.)

Seacrest out.

Last edited Tue, 6th Mar 2007, 1:52am; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Tue, 6th Mar 2007, 1:42am

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Bryce007

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This debate is really turning into an unnecessary debate about debating itself. I get the feeling any proceeding posts could probably just say either "I liked it" or "I didn't like it" and have the same effect, only with less wordage.
Posted: Tue, 6th Mar 2007, 1:48am

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er-no

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schwar wrote:

Wow, this post has blown up quite a bit since I last posted. I still think RVD2 is great technically and it makes me wish we could get to use our HVX200 for a movie.
Oh but we will schwar... we will!
Posted: Tue, 6th Mar 2007, 2:15am

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Hybrid-Halo

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Rating: +2

To Ryans defence, at least the films he shamelessly hypes and creates interest for he actually releases.

*ahem*Splinter Cell*ahem*

*Bites into a Big Mac filled with trees*

-Hybrid.
Posted: Tue, 6th Mar 2007, 2:26am

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petet2

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Atom wrote:

Dealing with the second point first - I saw the RvD2 movie being listed as one of the top 5 viral movies on the Metro news web site in the UK so it is being widely passed around which implies that a lot of people like it. Yes I would rather make a film with a proper narrrative but the growth of YouTube et al is based upon the popularity of short video clips with no story. Personally I blame MTV for destroying the attention span of an entire generation.
The bold part is a complete lie, and my reasoning to challenge the rest of your post.
I just checked You Tube. Nearly 150,000 have viewed RvD2 in only three days. 2300 people have rated it an average score of 4 and a half stars. Not a lie, just a summing up of the facts as presented by You Tube.

Read the comments there and on the stage6 site - I think "a lot of people like it" is a fair assesment of the 1175 quotes on You Tube.

Last edited Tue, 6th Mar 2007, 2:33am; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Tue, 6th Mar 2007, 2:29am

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Fill

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Hybrid-Halo wrote:

To Ryans defence, at least the films he shamelessly hypes and creates interest for he actually releases.

*ahem*Splinter Cell*ahem*
Posted: Tue, 6th Mar 2007, 4:18am

Post 76 of 164

King of Blades

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Well, I must say that RvD2 is a major improvement from its predecessor; better video quality, SUPERIOR effects and animation, and top notch choreography.

Though, they say that they invested in about 1 million USD, yet they don't even think about putting their work up for retail... they simply just post it up for free download and on YouTub...

What also kind of leaves me wondering is that there is no dialogue, nor a plot-- just two guys dueling to the absolute death... again.

Don't take me the wrong way; I loved the sequel, but I believe they should produce an actual movie that leads up to the climactic (spelling) duel in the end.
Posted: Tue, 6th Mar 2007, 5:14am

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Thrawn

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JohnCarter wrote:

I personally never heard of it before Bob from
I saw the original after the sequel. It had better choreography IMO. This one had better effects and music.
I actually think part 2 had a lot better choreography. Actually in my opinion RVD2 was one of the best choreography films ive seen in a while..

Anyways I really dont see why this has gotten into such a debate.
Most of the comments I see are "I could do that", "Why did they spend $10,000 on a lightsaber fight with no plot" or "Ryan Weiber has hyped up RVD2 to much". I believe this thread is about your thought about the Movie. So we should be saying why or why we dont like it (like the thread started out as) not how we could do better or Ryans ego problem...

thats just my 2 cents.

Thrawn
Posted: Tue, 6th Mar 2007, 6:42am

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ben3308

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Hybrid-Halo wrote:

To Ryans defence, at least the films he shamelessly hypes and creates interest for he actually releases.

*ahem*Splinter Cell*ahem*

*Bites into a Big Mac filled with trees*

-Hybrid.
Ah, but the difference here is that we're struggling to make it as best we can. Ryan had to have a second try at his swordfight; and even then not only did he incessantly hype the first one, he continued with hyping the second one. We at least learned our lesson mid-way. biggrin

Ultimately, you mail me 8 grand and an HVX, Hybrid, and I'll finish Splinter Cell this week over spring break. Go ahead, I love a challenge. wink I'll even send you 20 DVDs to give to friends.
Posted: Tue, 6th Mar 2007, 9:45am

Post 79 of 164

DorkmanScott

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I found the discussion on RvD2 on these boards searching Google to see if RvD2 was being mentioned anywhere, and I chose to keep my peace since I don't think people in this thread would have been terribly interested in anything I had to say.

I held my tongue for that, because that's a discussion of film and that's ultimately a subjective thing. But this is getting personal and something needs to be said from our side.

In the first place, Ryan's getting a lot of crap around here for "overhyping" RvD. I would like to point out that RvD got the attention it did entirely without our help. Someone else put it on Google Video. Someone else put it on YouTube. We built a site so people could get the answers to the questions they had, and so there was a centralized place for the film. The site came after the YouTube boom of the film. For three years before that we had been perfectly content to let it live quietly in it's small little fan-film corner of the internet.

When RvD blew up, we got a lot of questions as to if/when we were going to do another one. You can see these very same types of comments right now on YouTube. We only just finished RvD2 and we have people asking us when we're doing RvD3. Ryan and I had always wanted to make another one, so we figured what the heck, now was as good a time as any (and probably a better one, since we had a wider audience).

A lot of people here say "With the kind of money they were working with, I could have made something much better." I want to point out that a lot of the budget estimates being thrown around are flat-out wrong (someone in here claimed we spent $1 MILLION on this thing!). The final tally for the film, not counting recoverable costs like the camera, was around $14,000.

However, you need to realize that of that amount, $12,000 went to the original score. Find some royalty-free music or a composer who can make you something good for a low rate and you don't have to spend that.

So the actual shooting costs of the film were around $2000. Of that, $1200 was spent on airfare to the location, $500 on our hotel, and $300 on food for the four of us on "crew". If you're resourceful and can find a place local to you that is cool to shoot in for free, the budget technically drops to $300. And you can even get it down to $0 if you make everyone bring their own food. So the fact that we had a "bigger budget" is no excuse.

There's the other point -- a valid one in principle -- which is "If I had the resources and support they had, I would have made something other than a lightsaber fight." That's a sound comment, but what you have to realize is: the only reason we had those resources and that support was because we had promised a lightsaber fight. Maybe people would have donated to us anyway, and maybe they wouldn't, but the fact is, we told them we wanted to make a new lightsaber fight, and they could help us out if they were so inclined. I don't think a bait-and-switch tactic would have been appreciated by our benefactors.

The HVX was not bought with donation money. Ryan took out a loan that I'm helping him pay off, making an investment in our careers. It wasn't handed to us on a silver platter. We took a risk in getting it like anyone else would.

The movie is a lightsaber fight because that's what we wanted to make, and we perceived that the audience was at its greatest potential right now. You can attribute that to ego if you wish, but my feeling is after spending six months working non-stop on something, isn't it desirable to get as many people to see it as possible? Or would it be better if we were to go to all that work and then lock it away in a vault, like Prince, never to be seen by outside eyes?

So sure, you could call it "ego" to want people to see it, but I personally call it "the whole point of making a film." And maybe those are, in fact, the exact same thing, but if that's the case then everyone here is guilty of that, not just me and Ryan.

There's accusation that Ryan is a "credit hog". The funny thing is, Ryan never asks for credit, he just gets it. He's always been very clear that RvD was a collaboration between me and him, but for some reason he always gets the credit. Even here, where the credit is negative, he's the one getting it.

As far as a specific point being made earlier, about Ryan "taking the credit" for the shot choices in RvD2: first of all, I don't know of any occasion where he actually did so. Secondly, Ryan and I DID make nearly all the shot choices, both in RvD and RvD2.

Please don't misconstrue that as downplaying the contributions of Travis Boles, our cameraman on RvD2. All the shot ideas in the world are meaningless unless you've got a cameraman who knows how to make them happen, and Travis was that guy. He got the shot no matter what it was.


I don't see why our attention or "success" (in terms of reaching and pleasing the audience that we intended to) needs to be begrudged by anyone in the indie community. We didn't steal your audience or your resources away from you. It's still there for you to put out whatever you wish to. And I agree that things are better with a story. We plan to make a number of more structured films, with plots and character arcs, unrelated to the RvD series. But I don't see why it has to be a contest where you can make something "better" than us. I don't recall us ever saying RvD2 was "better" than anything, except for RvD1.

And as for being "arrogant", I'd ask some of you to go back through your own posts in this thread. If someone were to take any single post, out of context, as an example of your conduct or character, as has been done to Ryan here, what do you think they might conclude about you?

TFN is a community of people who hang out and talk a lot. We know each other there. No doubt FXHome is much the same. When you're comfortable with people you talk differently to them than people you don't know as well. I'm not going to defend every post we've ever made, but I know the one quoted in this thread of "Ryan being an ass" is presented in a much different context than it would be perceived by anyone on TFN, including the person he was directing it towards. He's the kind of guy who gives his friends crap. They know he's kidding around, but someone looking in on the conversation without context or any knowledge of him as a person is bound to take it the wrong way.

Obviously I'm biased. But Ryan is by far the most friendly, accepting, open-minded person I've ever met. He's professional and extremely intelligent and a joy to work with. He also happens to be my best friend, but he's my best friend because I respect him, and not the other way around. Hate the movies all you want, but unless you've talked to him directly, you have no right to make any comments or critiques on his character.

Last edited Tue, 6th Mar 2007, 9:56am; edited 3 times in total.

Posted: Tue, 6th Mar 2007, 9:48am

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petet2

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This thread has been filled with comments from people saying "if i had what Ryan had..." and giving reasons why they can't do something. Ryan seems to have just gone out and done something. I guess that he got the money to do it in the main because he self promoted. I don't think he had a huge budget for Rvd1 did he? And it is the success of that that allowed him to get funding for vD2.

I used to sit around talking about what I'd do when I got a better camera/computer/software etc, justifying why I didn't do it now. Now I get on and do something. Ok my camera is a pretty cheap single chip mini dv model so my footage won't look as good as a 3 chip HD model. But I could be waiting forever until I get one of those and I'd rather be making films.

I've seen RvD2 now and I thought that it looked great, that the effects were very good (though I thought the severed limbs looked too obviously cgi). [Was it filmed on the Panasonic camera several posts have mentioned above?] However I didn't actually think it was choreographed as well as the first. There was an energy about RvD that was lacking in RvD2.

But fair game to Ryan, he's finished his film and people around the world are viewing it over the internet. It's like the film 2Epic which B4uaskmale had shown on the Propellor channel here in the UK. I'm sure that some of the more critical FX Home members would have picked fault with various aspects of the movie but hey, he's got his work on national TV!

It's easy to sit on your butt and argue for why you can't do something or use integrity as an excuse for inaction (ask me where the novel I've been going to write for the past ten years has got to). For me the people who are doing something, whether I like what they do or not, deserve some support.

I've never met Ryan W so I'm not going to criticise or defend him as a person. But shouldn't we get some inspiration from the fact that a struggling amateur film maker like us has made a high quality movie that's getting international exposure? Rather than attacking him with a derisory "I could do better", we should be saying "look what can be done" and getting our movies out there too.

EDIT: My post was intended to follow ben3308's above. In the time it took me to write it a big post has appeared (from Dorkman himself it claims!) so I will apologise now in case my post makes less sense due to the context of the thread changing.
Posted: Tue, 6th Mar 2007, 10:06am

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Joshua Davies

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DorkmanScott - a good and fair post.

Be sure that there are many people here at FXhome who do love RVD and RVD2 (and many who do not really care for lightsword films still respect the great effects). Some posters have even said RVD is their reason for getting in to special effects in the first place!

Are you planning to make a third movie at all? Are there any other projects going on with you and Ryan which are not RVD based? I'm hoping for a full short film with amazing visuals wink

There are some people here who have picked to hate RVD and therefore the people who make it which seems rather irrational to me. Sure lightswords films are not for everyone but please don't lash out at the makers of RVD for no real reason.

I'm not going to lock this topic just yet but get back on topic and stop randomly slating people or it will be locked!

You don't need a monster budget to make a great movie - just get out there and try as hard as you can.
Posted: Tue, 6th Mar 2007, 10:11am

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Sollthar

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Thanks for a very good and insightful post Dorkman Scott and thanks for sharing your very personal views - especially in such a calm manner seeing the thread really did descend into weirdness.

It is a weird phenomenon how people grow to passionatly bash or hate something they don't like instead of just moving on. I'm a bit puzzled myself why your film has gotten such heat here.
People have a habit of making liking or disliking something a personal thing between them and the creators, which can lead to a very strange outcome sometimes. But I guess that's how people work. smile


For me the people who are doing something, whether I like what they do or not, deserve some support.
I agree wholeheartedly!

Even though I really didn't care for the movie because of my lack of interest in lightsabers or Star Wars, kudos for making a technically excellent film and I hope you guys get the chance of using these unquestionable talents of yours to make more movies and I'm sure they'll be something amongst them I will enjoy - as long as it doesn't have any lightsabers. biggrin

And as for the "I could do something like that if I had the money" argument... I think we all know 99% of those claiming they could, simply couldn't. Probably another reason why the heat is on. wink
Posted: Tue, 6th Mar 2007, 12:19pm

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Arktic

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Credit's due to Dorkman for coming and making such a calm, logical and reasoned post in the face of such unwarranted criticism of his and Ryan's character, imho.

DorkmanScott wrote:

And as for being "arrogant", I'd ask some of you to go back through your own posts in this thread.
Not just this thread - several people here really ought to look at everything they post and see if they're 'guilty' of the things they're so quick to criticise in other people.
Posted: Tue, 6th Mar 2007, 1:39pm

Post 84 of 164

Redhawksrymmer

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A very nice and insightful post, DorkmanScott. smile I'm sure Ryan is a very nice person, and I must say I really like your movie...heh, I've seen it several times actually.
Posted: Tue, 6th Mar 2007, 1:58pm

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Jabooza

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I agree with Dorkman, I think it's crazy to start talking like you hate Ryan just because he self-promotes his awesome movies. Everyone does that, it's called a trailer. If movies and other products weren't advertised who would watch them? Who would even know about them?

I think mostly the reason for people thinking they're crazy about self-promoting is because they decided to go with a behind the scene's look where they talk about their stuff instead of the more common trailer (which isn't a bad thing).

I think the duel itself was great. For me it's tied with Art of the Saber.
Posted: Tue, 6th Mar 2007, 2:04pm

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ben3308

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DorkmanScott wrote:

But Ryan is by far the most friendly, accepting, open-minded person I've ever met. He's professional and extremely intelligent and a joy to work with. He also happens to be my best friend, but he's my best friend because I respect him, and not the other way around. Hate the movies all you want, but unless you've talked to him directly, you have no right to make any comments or critiques on his character.
Awesome, I was wondering when one of you guys was gonna jump into the conversation! I applaud you for doing so, man, and I think it needs to be noted that if you go over many of my posts in this thread, they're all directly taken from the context of Ryan's arrogance in the TFN threads. And yes, maybe, while I've never met him in real life and while things on the internet can be misconstrued; he's chosen a tone that is oftentimes perceived as arrogant, and he is, in effect, then subject to judgment as an arrogant individual. That's how the internet works: give us a bit of you that's bad, and we'll think you're a bad guy. It's a vicious cycle, but a cycle nonetheless.

Most all of my negative comments in this thread were also directly solely at Ryan and his cockiness exhibited at TFN, not you. I don't have personal grudge of any sort, nor am I jealous of Ryan in any respect, save Project White Rabbit, which I really thought was cool. Dorkman, you can even look in my post history 3+ years ago and see that I have celebrated what you and Ryan do. I liked RvD2, I just thought the hype before it ruined my viewing of the film. I myself hyped my own fanfilm, and when I couldn't deliver it, or overhyped it in any regard, I got flak for it.

Synonymously, I think you guys should be subject to the same criticisms (only, really, in regard to 'hyping') due to the fact that RvD2 was pretty infallilbly hyped all across the internet when it really didn't need to be. Couple with Ryan's, shall we say, abbrasive comments in the TFN thread, it seems like you guys asked for hype, then depended upon a mindless fanbase to praise you whilst excommunicating anyone who criticizes. From the level-headed way you've approached this debate, I revere you, good sir.

Good luck on future movies, Ben.

Last edited Tue, 6th Mar 2007, 2:15pm; edited 2 times in total.

Posted: Tue, 6th Mar 2007, 2:07pm

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Mellifluous

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It's a tad ridiculous the way the topic's developed into primarily a discussion of one of the creators.

I thought it was good myself. Good choreography, and great compositing especially considering the dynamic camera movement.

Everyone has preconceptions before going to see a movie, about stars and directors. However despite Tom Cruise, say, being in Minority Report doesn't prevent you from saying "good movie". But Tom Cruise is someone who's constantly hammered into public consciousness. Ryan W is not. He hasn't even been on tv proclaiming his love for Katie Holmes. Yet his character has seemed to be dissected in just the same way here. I find that weird.

And I find this "if I had that budget I'd make a better movie" argument a bit lame. It's hypothetical. If you're good, budget shouldn't matter. There's a lot more to filmmaking than a wad of cash, as Sollthar's Filmmaking Guide shows you. And if you're good, money will come to you.

I agree to some extent about making actual movies rather than Star Wars themed movies, but many talented people do choose to do fanfilms, and invest a lot of time and money into them. As DorkmanScott said, it's because of that they had the money to make it. That's the advantage, and also the tragedy, of making a fanfilm.

Star Wars is something out there already, it doesn't require a director to sell his unique vision of an imaginary world. People get enthused about it and they already know the "sense" of the world they're about to participate in. Someone with a different vision, of a world they've created themselves, have a harder task. They have to convey their vision of a totally different world to others, something harder if there's not a series of films as reference. If you get money and enthusiasm to make a movie, it means you've got your vision across and got people to trust in you and your talent. So if you do get the same budget as Ryan vs Dorkman 2 to work on an original movie, well done.
Posted: Tue, 6th Mar 2007, 5:51pm

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Evman

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Thank you Dorkman for finally posting something. I was waiting for one of you to see this thread.

While some of my comments in particular may seem abrasive or selfish, I must say I respect you for finally chiming in in a logical way.

My opinion of you and Ryan has improved significantly because of that post. I understand everything you are saying, and its great to hear it straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak. I hope you can understand some of our jealousy and bad feelings (I mean, who wouldn't want to be in your position - you have respect from many many people now and you have a loyal fanbase.) and forgive us for leaping to conclusions. I also hope you understand how some words and actions of yours and Ryans could be misinterpretted as hostile or arrogant (although I can be just as bad a lot of the time).

At least I (and I hope a lot of us here) have learned from this that you can't judge someone you don't know or haven't heard from personally, and for doing so, I apologize.

P.S. - Your movie is pretty. razz
Posted: Tue, 6th Mar 2007, 6:40pm

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devilskater

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I actually thought this was a lot better than the first one ... loved the way you guys put in "burned marks" in the walls, and persistently kept the same "burned shape" in every other scene, where one can see that same wall again ... so you guys did an amazing job in keeping the detail.

the fight scenes are interesting, the camera work is great...the lighting is adequate ... effects are top notch (chopped off arm looks great, burned marks on the walls are AMAZING)

the only thing I really have to complain about is the way you guys dress ^^ for such an expensive and amazing movie, you could've picked out some more "decent" clothes ... biggrin

all in all, GREAT GREAT GREAT ...
maybe you've already mentioned this somewhere...but I'll ask again, cause I am too lazy to search for this...but are you guys gonna send this movie in to film festivals ???

thx for the sensational movie,

cheers,
d.
Posted: Tue, 6th Mar 2007, 7:20pm

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Mandalorian

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Great movie. Loved it far more than the first and I definitely have to comment on the fx, they were spectacular. Keep up the good work Ryan and Michael!
Posted: Tue, 6th Mar 2007, 7:24pm

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Aculag

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I only got to watch the first couple of minutes of this before the buffering got to me and I had to shut it, but it at least LOOKS better than the last one (HVX Users unite!). Maybe I'll watch the rest someday, but I kinda felt like I got the point.

I see you guys spent 12,000 dollars on the score. Um... WHY? I could see this being the be-all and end-all of fan-made lightsaber fights if you guys had spent the money doing crazy wire tricks or more locations, practical effects, etc. If you ask me, the score ought to have been something minimal, since most people are going to be paying attention to what's on the screen, rather than what's coming out their speakers.

I dunno. It's probably the fact that I've never had that kind of money to use on a movie before, and if it was ME, I wouldn't spend nearly that much on music, but it's not me! smile

Seems like you guys had a lot of fun, though. On this glorified effects test. wink
Posted: Wed, 7th Mar 2007, 12:31am

Post 92 of 164

DorkmanScott

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Thanks everyone for being reasonable about it.

Aculag wrote:

I see you guys spent 12,000 dollars on the score. Um... WHY? I could see this being the be-all and end-all of fan-made lightsaber fights if you guys had spent the money doing crazy wire tricks or more locations, practical effects, etc. If you ask me, the score ought to have been something minimal, since most people are going to be paying attention to what's on the screen, rather than what's coming out their speakers.
Well, as they say, sound is 50% of the picture. A good score is a lot like good visual effects. The best compliment you can get is that no one noticed it, because it fit the scene so well. Our composers might disagree with that statement a bit, but they know I have nothing but respect for their talents.

Believe me, without the score, it's a much different film.

After RvD got popular, we had a lot of people wanting to show it -- G4TV, a few local stations around the country -- but we could never sign the release forms and get it seen because we didn't have the licensing for the music we used. That licensing would have cost us around $50,000.

We didn't want to make the same mistake with RvD2, so we knew going in that we would be getting an original score done, so we could grant permission to show the film to anyone who wanted it.

We got in touch with Gordy, who had composed the music for another short I did last year, and he was on board. When he brought Kyle on board to help him out, we started talking about the idea of recording with a real orchestra instead of using synth instruments.

So, we put out a second donation call, saying that we were going to record with an orchestra, and the size of the orchestra depended on the money we had in hand. Without donations, we were ready to invest about $6-7000 in the music, because it's an important part of the film. As it turns out, people really loved the idea of the original score and the donations flooded in. But again, it's easy to say "If I'd had that much money, I would have spent it on the shoot," until you realize that we didn't have that much money until well after the film had been shot.

If you get the "special features" DVD, we're going to have a feature where you can watch the film with the isolated score, and you will have the option of listening to the orchestral recording, or the MIDI version that we would have had otherwise. When you do that, I think you'll agree that the orchestra was the wiser choice.

It's easy to get good visuals for very little money. But if you want good sound -- especially good music -- you have to pay for it. If you skimp on the music, it will detract from the visuals you spent so much time and (hypothetically) money creating.

Also, the music is one thing about the film that we actually own outright and can sell. We have the potential to recover some of the costs of the film that way. Kyle and Gordy donated a lot of time to this project, and the MIDI just wouldn't do the intricacy of their scoring justice. In the way that the film is a visual reel for us, it's an audio reel for their work.

So the reasons for spending so much money on the score are varied, but they are reasons that we considered very carefully before we did so.
Posted: Wed, 7th Mar 2007, 12:52am

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Jabooza

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DorkmanScott wrote:

After RvD got popular, we had a lot of people wanting to show it -- G4TV, a few local stations around the country -- but we could never sign the release forms and get it seen because we didn't have the licensing for the music we used. That licensing would have cost us around $50,000.

We didn't want to make the same mistake with RvD2, so we knew going in that we would be getting an original score done, so we could grant permission to show the film to anyone who wanted it.
I have a question: if you weren't able to let people broadcast RvD because of the copyrighted music then how come you can with RvD2 if you still have copyrighted lightsaber sounds in it?
Posted: Wed, 7th Mar 2007, 12:58am

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DorkmanScott

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Many of those sounds were released through Atomfilms as a "royalty free" package. Besides that, Lucasfilm is happy to turn a blind eye to that kind of thing as long as you're not selling the film. They understand the value of free publicity and advertising, which is what fan films are.

A lot of people are under the mistaken impression that "as long as you're not selling it" is the way copyright law works, and it's not. Lucasfilm could raise a big stink about it within their rights, they just choose not to, and have made a point of not doing so on several occasions.

The people who own the rights to the "Dark City" track, on the other hand, may not have been so forgiving with our violation of their copyright, and it wasn't a risk we particularly wanted to take.
Posted: Wed, 7th Mar 2007, 1:09am

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Atom

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Rating: -10

Now 10.

Seriously, what is the point of this now? The argument has ended and all this is doing is adding insult to injury. Again, I'll say it:

Now anyone who finds it intelligible to throw a minus one my way, know that this thread, or at least comment in this thread, has passed and flattened-out, and any further discrediting would show nothing but angst or a loathsome attitude.

Last edited Sat, 17th Mar 2007, 7:39pm; edited 4 times in total.

Posted: Wed, 7th Mar 2007, 1:15am

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Bryce007

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Atom wrote:


And then composing for $12,000! I see you've already addressed this, but I still need to say some things. That is outrageous, ridiculous, and you and Ryan are both amateur for considering and paying for that.
Why? They're allowed to pay whatever they want for something. I'm not sure how you (Another amateur) can say this was "Amateur" enough of them.
Posted: Wed, 7th Mar 2007, 1:18am

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Sollthar

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Oh, that's an easy one:

Atom knows how things are done. And everyone who does things differently then he would have is - objectively - wrong.


Seriously. You've been on fxhome for years now Bryce and you didn't get that yet? What's wrong with you? wink
Posted: Wed, 7th Mar 2007, 1:22am

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Jabooza

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Atom - I don't see why it's necessary for you to pick apart every (or perhaps in this case just financial) aspect of their film.


Oh well, more -1's for you.
Posted: Wed, 7th Mar 2007, 1:25am

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Atom

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Rating: -1

Jabooza Clog Booza wrote:

I don't see why it's necessary for you to pick apart every (or perhaps in this case just financial) aspect of their film.
Because everyone else was until DorkmanScott commented, and then everyone went "oh, well, okay." And I just don't see it that way. When you make a defense and you use, IMO, excuses as a shield, the proper rebuttal isn't "oh, well, okay." Yes, Bryce, they are entitled to spend however much they want, but when it's spent, again IMO, so ridiculously on the soundtrack- and that is an excuse for the budget being so high- it has to be addressed.

Jabooza Clog Booza wrote:

Oh well, more -1's for you.
The minus ones are ridiculous, too. Why skip my post? I think I'm making a fair rebuttal and honest opinion. I don't even have a -1 button myself. smile And from previous history of you, Jabooza, I doubt you know how the rating system works or what it is for. Shows you how fair that system is. wink

Again, this is only my personal thoughts and is not intended to continue and/or further such a discussion, at least not on this thread. I just won't apologize for what I think is true and/or my own critique.

Oh, and that's cute, Sollthar. You know me so well. wink

Last edited Wed, 7th Mar 2007, 1:32am; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Wed, 7th Mar 2007, 1:31am

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Hendo

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Rating: +3

Atom wrote:

And then composing for $12,000! I see you've already addressed this, but I still need to say some things. That is outrageous, ridiculous, and you and Ryan are both amateur for considering and paying for that.

Atom wrote:

they are entitled to spend however much they want, but when it's spent, again IMO, so ridiculously on the soundtrack- and that is an excuse for the budget being so high- it has to be addressed.
It's their project and they are perfectly entitled to spend the money however they want to.

As I understand it, people donated to their project knowing full well that the largest portion was going to an original score.

I don't see how it's any of your business to state that it's 'outrageous' or 'rediculous'. In fact, I think it's quite rude and not the kind of atmosphere that FXhome is known for.
Posted: Wed, 7th Mar 2007, 1:35am

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Hybrid-Halo

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Rating: +2

Atom wrote:

Because everyone else was until DorkmanScott commented, and then everyone went "oh, well, okay." And I just don't see it that way. When you make a defense and you use, IMO, excuses as a shield, the proper rebuttal isn't "oh, well, okay." Yes, Bryce, they are entitled to spend however much they want, but when it's spent, again IMO, so ridiculously on the soundtrack- and that is an excuse for the budget being so high- it has to be addressed.

The minus ones are ridiculous, too. Why skip my post? I think I'm making a fair rebuttal and honest opinion. I don't even have a -1 button myself. Shows you how fair that system is. wink
When people make comments regarding how they've perceived someone's attitude to be, and that person posts in a manner which corrects them - the posters do what's called retracting their initial concerns and absorb the newer, and more pleasant experience as being the truth which arose to lay an assumption to rest.

I'd also say that Dorkman's post answered a lot of questions which were yet to really be addressed such as budgeting - you can't say they should have planned better, because circumstance rarely sees even the best laid plans executed ideally. If anything, travelling to a middle point makes the whole thing more of a rites of passage affair - something which I can absolutely relate to as an enthusiast. Not everyone is lucky enough to live with young talent like your brother Atom.

In any case, we're an audience in this scenario - it's not our job to say whether or not the money was spent how we as film makers would spend it. We watch the final piece and simply decide if we like it or not - I've already made my impressions clear on this subject. Why other's are caught up in a ridiculous debating of their own opinions is beyond me. In a galaxy far, far away if you will.

-Hybrid.
Posted: Wed, 7th Mar 2007, 1:36am

Post 102 of 164

Atom

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Obviously this thread isn't going my way, and it really shouldn't. I'll end this now. There's no reason to continue to defend my point, and what I thought and saw as everyone else's point, (until DorkmanScott entered the forums) as it appears everyone has either politely shifted attitudes genuinely, or sugar-coated theirs.

I'll quote a recent Xcession post:

Xcession from 'Video Killed the Radio Star' thread wrote:

I realise its terribly pedantic to point out these things, given that its almost impossible for you to achieve what i want, but its still worth pointing out for future productions.
Altering opinions and/or views. That's just not me, and frankly I think DorkmanScott (well, not so much him as Ryan) need to hear some of the negativity when all they've heard is the positive everywhere else.

Just read your post, Hybrid. I got ya, and I understand. In all the same metaphorical corniness as

Hybrid-Halo wrote:

opinions is beyond me. In a galaxy far, far away if you will.
How true that is, young Halo. wink

Sorry for mucking up the forums, guys. Hendo: I didn't mean to ruin the atmosphere. I'll withdraw from this thread with the wish that you'll keep my previous posts.

Seacrest out. wink
Posted: Wed, 7th Mar 2007, 1:47am

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DorkmanScott

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Rating: +2

Atom wrote:

Now to you guys at FXHome: While Scott holds some truths and reasoning, you're no better than what you said about Ryan and the TF.N posters previously if you immediately concede to what DorkmanScott says and act completely apologetic.
I don't think there's anything amateurish or unrespectable about apologizing when you have wronged another person. I gained a lot of respect for some of the posters here for being quite reasonable in realizing that some of their comments had been unfair.

Atom wrote:

It really is Ryan we're all talking about, and I don't think "look at your own ego!" is a fair defense. Each person represents themselves. Easiest way to put it. It's lame and amateur to throw the self-reflection comeback in, as it doesn't solve or address the problem the poster pointed out.
I think it does, though. I never said "Ryan's arrogant? YOU'RE arrogant." I said that making an assumption as to someone's character based on one or even several forum posts was a bad idea, and pointed out that if the tables were turned, someone could make some poor inferences about people in this thread that would likely been wholly incorrect and equally unfair.

Atom wrote:

Sure, I realize RvD was widely hailed. But that's not when Ryan 'decided to hype', or that he 'didn't help the hype'. This conversation about his character has been going on long before RvD2 was even announced, on these forums and others.
I'm going to have to ask for some concrete evidence of that. And even if so, again, was it RYAN doing the hyping, or was the hyping just HAPPENING and getting attributed to Ryan?

I understand that when you start to hear a song a lot on the radio, you start to hate the artist. But it's the radio station that's overplaying it. Go back and really look: is it the fact that Ryan himself was hyping it, or the fact that people just kept on bringing it up time after time?

RvD gets posted on Digg every couple months or so by someone who just found it and got excited, and then is usually met with dozens of posts telling them to do a search next time, dammit. I can concede that that would probably get annoying after a while, but that's not something Ryan nor I have any control over.

Atom wrote:

Breaking down the costs into what you bought didn't seem like a good idea to me. Why? Because from what I see, while they may seem like necessities, to me your expenses purely look frivolous in every aspect.
That's because, as in terms of my/Ryan's personal character, you don't actually know the facts. I don't mean that as a slight against you, just a statement. A lot of your suggestions make perfect sense until you learn the facts of our specific situation. But I give you credit for bringing them up and, therefore, asking for those details.

Atom wrote:

If you both didn't have to work, and both lived in different states,
Okay, right here we have two big ifs, on which hinges your entire argument, and without which your argument kind of falls apart.

Point 1: Ryan had, and has, a full-time, 10-hour-a-day job working for an effects company in Pasadena. I had just been laid off of my job, fortuitously as it turned out.

Point 2: We don't live in different states. We don't even live in different cities. In point of fact, Ryan and I are roommates, and we live in Los Angeles.

Atom wrote:

it seems to me the most logical thing to do would be to plan out how one of you could fly one way to the other's residence and stay there. BAM! Airfare half-gone and lodging eliminated.
That does work well, and that's how we did it for the original RvD, when he lived in San Jose. Unfortunately that wasn't an option this time around.

Atom wrote:

From there, there are obvious and simple ways to eat economically. Ramen noodles? Lunch meat? And these aren't even the worst OR cheapest things to eat. College kids live off of them, why couldn't you?
This point does have some merit. But again, in the context of the situation: there were four of us working 12-16 hours every night, from sundown to well past dawn, shooting an action scene. It was summer in Atlanta, Georgia, and we were fighting in a concrete box that had been running ovens all day. It was well over 110-degrees in there, and 100% humidity, at all times. Ryan and I were producers and directors and actors and stuntmen. The other two were cameramen and dolly-pushers and grips and forklift operators and everything else they needed to be. The work was exhausting mentally and physically, and we needed to make sure we had the energy to get through the shoot. Ramen noodles and lunch meat just weren't going to cut it.

Even still, we did eat pretty cheaply if you do the math: that's $300 over a 10-day shoot. $30 a day. For four people, that's an average $7.50 per person. $7.50 PER DAY, not per meal.

Atom wrote:

I mean, if you're willing to dedicate so much time and such a nice camera to this, surely you could've made an effort to find a place in either where you or him reside to shoot and eliminate that extra cost, as well as work in your own familiar, likely faster environment.
Could've, and did. Unfortunately, we live in Los Angeles. Everybody knows what a location is worth to a film shoot, and the best deal we found locally would have cost us more than twice as much than did the cost of airfare and lodging in Atlanta.

Why Atlanta? Because a fan of ours offered for us to shoot, for free, in the factory he owned. He even OFFERED to pay for our accommodations and airfare, but because we had already started receiving donations, we couldn't conscientiously let him do that. Other filmmakers probably would have jumped on that opportunity as a free ride. Ryan and I just aren't willing to take advantage of people, especially fans, like that.

Atom wrote:

That kind of thing seems like a simple and relatively obvious answer to me.
I'm sure it does, but it didn't work out that way.

Atom wrote:

And then composing for $12,000! I see you've already addressed this, but I still need to say some things. That is outrageous, ridiculous, and you and Ryan are both amateur for considering and paying for that. Surely, as you actually pointed out, as a forum regular you know the possibility to compose your own music, use royalty free music, or find a free or at least AFFORDABLE composer. And with such a large fanbase and numerous benefactors I'm almost POSITIVE someone would've done the sound free of charge. I mean goddamn, man! That's your own fault for that expense.
The $12,000 wasn't the cost of the composing. Gordy and Kyle did that for us as a favor. The $12,000 went to paying 60 professional musicians (the same guys who play on all the major studio films) to come in and play the score, and to renting a professional studio that could seat that many musicians.

Gordy and Kyle were more than accommodating. They're both fans and friends, and saw it as an opportunity for exposure just as we did. But musicians are members of a union, they have to be paid a minimum hourly rate, and they have to work for a minimum of 3 hours. They couldn't have recorded with us for free even if they'd wanted to.

We could have recorded with a college orchestra in some room retrofitted for the occasion, but it would have taken us much longer and not sounded nearly as good. I would think that would have been a more amateur move than hiring professionals.

Again, we made the choice and that was the money that was given to us FOR THE SCORE. The money wasn't available to us at the time that we shot the film, and to pocket any amount of the money, which had been donated to us specifically to get the best music possible, would have been dishonest.

Atom wrote:

When people were commenting on your costs, I saw most said around $10-$15 thousand, which was correct. People were saying "where did it go?", which to me meant on some unnecessary things. However, people gave you the benefit of a doubt and played it off as the camera's expense. Now I know you said "that was another risk", but honestly it's bad budgeting and thinking filmmaking-wise to have such a large sum of money and spend it on such costly things and then risk buying such an expensive camera.
We bought the camera first. Before we asked for donations, before we found a location, before we had made a choice on anything else, we bought the camera. It was a risk because we bought it without the benefit of knowing we'd have anything besides our own paychecks paying it back.

And, that's still pretty much what it is. The camera was and is a personal expense, excluded from the film's budget. We can, after all, use it again.

Atom wrote:

That money would've gone straight to lighting, props, and the camera if it were me, as they are the most logical expenses.
That's you in your ideal situation. That's not us in our actual situation. The timing of the funds was much different than you think it was. We didn't have it all up front. If we had, we probably would have made different choices as to where it went.

Last edited Wed, 7th Mar 2007, 2:23am; edited 4 times in total.

Posted: Wed, 7th Mar 2007, 1:48am

Post 104 of 164

Jabooza

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Atom wrote:

Jabooza Clog Booza wrote:

I don't see why it's necessary for you to pick apart every (or perhaps in this case just financial) aspect of their film.
Because everyone else was until DorkmanScott commented, and then everyone went "oh, well, okay."
I never said it was right to change your mind after DorkmanScott commented (I never changed my mind, if you go back to my previous posts you will find that I did review the film in one post which did state my opinions of it's weak and strong points but I never picked it apart).


Atom wrote:

And from previous history of you, Jabooza, I doubt you know how the rating system works or what it is for. Shows you how fair that system is.
I originally didn't know much about the system and did make some poor rating decisions but now do know how to use the system and have erased my poorly judged ratings. I guess I can't prove this to you since you have no way to access my post ratings but perhaps a willing moderator could vouch for me.
Posted: Wed, 7th Mar 2007, 2:03am

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Sollthar

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Rating: +1

atom wrote:

Altering opinions and/or views. That's just not me.
Some people call that process "learning"; I've actually heard of really bold ones to even call it "evolving". But well, I've come to understand that that's indeed not for everyone. smile



I think people give this too much weight really. Though maybe it's just because I've come to grow kind of fond of our little atom and his constantly disagreeing "I know better and won't back down HAH TAKE THAT" attitude. I think it's genuinly funny, especially since in this case, he appears to critizise to exact attitude he's so famous for himself. And an attitude I really can't see in anything DorkmanScott has written so far in this thread.


As I said before, I've not had the chance of meeting or talking to either Dorkman Scott nor Ryan before this - but reading Dorkmans responses here in this thread, I can absolutely understand why he is a well respected member of the TFN community and have no problems to say he's earned my respect (which isn't backing down from anything I've said btw, cause I still don't give a crap about Lightsaber battles, but Dorkman rocks wink )
Posted: Wed, 7th Mar 2007, 2:16am

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ben3308

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Jabooza Clog Booza wrote:

Oh well, more -1's for you.
That "go with the crowd" attitude is gonna do wonders once you reach highschool, kid. wink

Ultimately, I'm with what Evman said: my opinion of RvD2 and the atmosphere of hate around it has decreased tenfold through Dorkman's comments. Whilst I still hold sentiments regarding Ryan and his choices to be arrogant on forums, I can accept the fact that RvD2 had a certain budget that was spent in a certain way. I'm a visual man, so I would've appreciated the purchase of a side-swooping crane like the AdvantaJib to make for some awesome shots. It would've been two thousand dollars, but I'm sure that (somehow) could've been deducted from some of the costs.

Personally, I thought the musical score was the best part of the movie, but I still dunno if you guys got your money's worth. I would've definitely haggled the hell outta that price. It also would've made the camerawork a bit more involved if you had extra budget for the inclusion of some crane shots. (Though I appreciated the addition of some good dolly in/out/sideways shots, bravo!)
Posted: Wed, 7th Mar 2007, 2:22am

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Hybrid-Halo

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ben3308 wrote:

Jabooza Clog Booza wrote:

Oh well, more -1's for you.
That "go with the crowd" attitude is gonna do wonders once you reach highschool, kid. wink
Most likely make him very popular.
Posted: Wed, 7th Mar 2007, 2:25am

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DorkmanScott

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ben3308 wrote:

Personally, I thought the musical score was the best part of the movie, but I still dunno if you guys got your money's worth. I would've definitely haggled the hell outta that price.
There's no haggling when you deal with a union. You pay their fee or you don't get the performers. It's as simple as that.

Even still, we got the performers on a hell of a deal on a low-budget agreement. $35 an hour, when standard scale is TEN TIMES that amount.

And we wanted to get a crane, but we couldn't find anywhere close enough to the location to rent one, and couldn't quite rationalize buying THAT, especially given the logistics of shipping it back and forth.
Posted: Wed, 7th Mar 2007, 2:44am

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ben3308

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I get it's just personal preference, but I think funds used on, say, some of the hotel fee could be contributed towards crane costs. To each his own, I guess.
Posted: Wed, 7th Mar 2007, 3:16am

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petet2

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Atom wrote:


Oh, and pete2: Youtube popularity DOESN'T equal "we liked that alot!", that's what I saw getting at earlier. People love sending others to 'shock' websites, but that doesn't mean it's entertaining or likable. There's a difference in VIRAL VIDEO (eg. Youtube, google video, ebaums world, etc.) and actually popular or critically-acclaimed films.
187,000 people have now viewed it, nearly 3000 have favourited it.
Yes I agree that some of the videos on YouTube get watched a lot because they are gross or horrific but I hardly think that people are directing others to watch a ten minute light saber movie for shock. Try reading the comments being posted there. People like it. A lot. Get over it.

Atom wrote:


Jabooza Clog Booza wrote:


I don't see why it's necessary for you to pick apart every (or perhaps in this case just financial) aspect of their film.
Because everyone else was until DorkmanScott commented, and then everyone went "oh, well, okay."
No everyone else wasn't. The debate was pretty much split. You and a few others were the most vociferous. And now you say that you did this "because everyone else was". There's nothing like having a well thought out opinion to expound is there?
Posted: Wed, 7th Mar 2007, 5:12am

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Aculag

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DorkmanScott wrote:

Believe me, without the score, it's a much different film.
I'm not saying do without a score entirely. Then again, I completely love fight scenes with little to no music. I think it makes the fight that much more interesting to watch.

I'm sure you'll disagree with anything I have to say, so I'll stop now.
Posted: Wed, 7th Mar 2007, 5:14am

Post 112 of 164

Atom

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Aculag wrote:

I'm sure you'll disagree with anything I have to say, so I'll stop now.
I love how simple and unattached your posts are. It's fun.
Posted: Wed, 7th Mar 2007, 5:16am

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Thrawn

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atom, why dont you give it up? You made your point that you would make the movie differently then Ryan Wieber and Michael Scott. You have made your critic so why dont you move on and stop degrading Ryan Wieber personaly. "DorkmanScott" has kindly come on this forum and calmy explained his and Ryan's reasoning for making the movie the way they did. Its good enough for me... and I really dont see why its not good enough for you.

Thrawn
Posted: Wed, 7th Mar 2007, 5:57am

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Aculag

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Thrawn wrote:

and I really dont see why its not good enough for you
Beeeecaaaaaauuuse.... Atom is a completely different person from you? Maybe. Something like that.
Posted: Wed, 7th Mar 2007, 5:18pm

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Rawree

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I think the main cause of Atom and Ben's comments is that they are thinking in completely different terms to those that Dorkman and Ryan and I get the feeling that it's perhaps not the most realistic ways of thinking. I would imagine that it's difficult to consider the ammount of work that goes into these sorts of productions without having been through one yourself and it's very easy to group all amateur films together as being low budget makeshift operations. I've never been involved in a production like this and have no intention of being involved in one in the near future so I have no idea what it's like and given the comments about sharing accomodation and making do with cheaper locations/music etc suggest to me that you two also have no idea what's involved. It's also worth mentioning that few of the big Hollywood directors are ever likely to have told the studio "I won't need such a big budget because we'll film most of it in my garage and Pete from down the road can do the editing for free". It's much more likely that they spent it all up which is kinda the idea of a budget.

I don't think you can really say that the money was spent badly because they set out to make a lightsaber battle movie and they managed it fantastically, so clearly it was spent in the right places (they're happy, the audience is happy and so on).
Posted: Wed, 7th Mar 2007, 7:17pm

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Fill

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To Atom: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STFU

Hi, Dorkman, thanks for posting. I understand that most of the things I complained about were cleared up. I'm glad you've taken the time to post in defense of Ryan and yourself. As for the score costing loads of money, I honestly thought it to not be a wise choice. I'm usually not one to appreciate sound tracks, so that's not much of an opinion. wink

Again, thanks for clearing things up.

Aculag wrote:

DorkmanScott wrote:

Believe me, without the score, it's a much different film.
I'm not saying do without a score entirely. Then again, I completely love fight scenes with little to no music. I think it makes the fight that much more interesting to watch.
Bourne Supremacy, when Bourne fights the other ex-agent. Awesome. Still, it is a lightsaber fight. In the actual Star Wars movies a score was included in the fight scene.

This is off topic, but I'm in computer graphics class. Today is a freeday and some idiot brought Ultraviolet in to watch. God, kill me now.
Posted: Wed, 7th Mar 2007, 7:24pm

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Rawree

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Kyal wrote:

To Atom: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STFU
Woah! Mate, lets not bring the Southern Tenant Farmers Union into this. They don't need this kind of hassle, not now.
Posted: Wed, 7th Mar 2007, 11:16pm

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Atom

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Atom wrote:

[MOD EDIT : Inapropriate URL removed. Saying 'don't go there' isn't good enough. Just don't post the link.]
What? Did I post a link?

Kyal wrote:

To Atom: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STFU
That's quite an abrasive comment from such a loquacious and 'STFU'd' person. That, and, like Rawree said, now isn't the time to bring the Southern Tenant Farmers Union into this. With the Dust Bowl and this "New" Deal, that's the last thing they need.
Posted: Wed, 7th Mar 2007, 11:18pm

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Thrawn

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Rawree wrote:

Kyal wrote:

To Atom: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STFU
Woah! Mate, lets not bring the Southern Tenant Farmers Union into this. They don't need this kind of hassle, not now.
ha ha nice...
Posted: Wed, 7th Mar 2007, 11:37pm

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Rawree

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Thrawn wrote:

Rawree wrote:

Kyal wrote:

To Atom: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STFU
Woah! Mate, lets not bring the Southern Tenant Farmers Union into this. They don't need this kind of hassle, not now.
ha ha nice...
It was the obvious joke to make and I'm not proud of it but it needed to be said!
Posted: Thu, 8th Mar 2007, 2:50am

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Atom

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Aaah....

I missed you and your ridiculously obvious sense of humor, Rawree. Good to have ya back.
Posted: Thu, 8th Mar 2007, 7:54am

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Aculag

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This is becoming one of those epic "argument" threads that made fxhome.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=30 famous.
Posted: Thu, 8th Mar 2007, 4:30pm

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Rawree

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Aculag wrote:

This is becoming one of those epic "argument" threads that made fxhome.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=30 famous.
Speaking of epic argument threads can I interedt you in joining my tag-team? wink
Posted: Thu, 8th Mar 2007, 4:36pm

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Jabooza

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This topic has strayed SO far from it's origin, (Ryan vs. Dorkman 2) it's not even funny.
Posted: Thu, 8th Mar 2007, 10:46pm

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Penguin

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DorkmanScott wrote:

This point does have some merit. But again, in the context of the situation: there were four of us working 12-16 hours every night, from sundown to well past dawn, shooting an action scene. It was summer in Atlanta, Georgia, and we were fighting in a concrete box that had been running ovens all day. It was well over 110-degrees in there, and 100% humidity, at all times.
HAHAHAHAHA!
that's 120 degrees warmer than it was when Jabooza and I filmed our lightsaber duel. We would have liked to be in a concrete oven smile
Seriously though, not intending to downplay the energy that it took to film it.
Posted: Fri, 9th Mar 2007, 1:00am

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Atom

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Rawree wrote:

Aculag wrote:

This is becoming one of those epic "argument" threads that made fxhome.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=30 famous.
Speaking of epic argument threads can I interedt you in joining my tag-team? wink
I was JUST about to say the same thing. Too bad I really only have one possible tag-team.

Ah, gotta love those seizure-inducing flashy-colored avatars, too.
Posted: Fri, 9th Mar 2007, 1:02am

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Serpent

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Rawree wrote:

Aculag wrote:

This is becoming one of those epic "argument" threads that made fxhome.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=30 famous.
Speaking of epic argument threads can I interedt you in joining my tag-team? wink
Does anyone have the original sigs of all those tag teams? I really wish I saved those.

So anyways, it'll be interesting to see RVD2 begin to thrive in the internet world. It's taking them longer to notice than I thought it would (considering RVD1 is already so widely spread).
Posted: Fri, 9th Mar 2007, 1:08am

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Atom

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Ben and I had one, and Aculag and Lt. had that hilarious one.

I still think I have the sig I made following it that said: "Great FXhomers come in pairs...." and had a bunch of names behind it.
Posted: Fri, 9th Mar 2007, 2:30am

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DorkmanScott

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Darth Penguin wrote:

HAHAHAHAHA!
that's 120 degrees warmer than it was when Jabooza and I filmed our lightsaber duel. We would have liked to be in a concrete oven smile
That's an odd thing for a penguin to say.

Again, I'm not all that interested in comparing who's had the most difficult shoot, nor am I trying to say it's been harder than anyone else's. Only that the money saved by eating Ramen and lunch meats would not have been worth the loss of quality from not getting sufficient nutrition during the shoot.

Serpent wrote:

So anyways, it'll be interesting to see RVD2 begin to thrive in the internet world. It's taking them longer to notice than I thought it would (considering RVD1 is already so widely spread).
I don't know about anyone else's experience with YouTube, but I think a quarter of a million views in one week -- without being featured on the YouTube front page, either -- is pretty fast.
Posted: Fri, 9th Mar 2007, 2:38am

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Serpent

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That's pretty impressive. I haven't looked at the Youtube page. I'm mainly talking about the spread to other video sites that are more low key (popular blog type sites etc.) I saw one all over the place when it became huge and I just think it'll be cool to see 2 spread over.
Posted: Fri, 9th Mar 2007, 3:24am

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ben3308

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DorkmanScott wrote:

Only that the money saved by eating Ramen and lunch meats would not have been worth the loss of quality from not getting sufficient nutrition during the shoot.
Ramen, not nutritious?

BLASPHEMY!
Posted: Fri, 9th Mar 2007, 6:55pm

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Aculag

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Atom wrote:

Ah, gotta love those seizure-inducing flashy-colored avatars, too.
Those were good times. That thread, and the counter threads were so fun.
Posted: Fri, 9th Mar 2007, 8:12pm

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Magic_man12

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The problem is most of the people here have made the same "me vs a buddy" lightsaber fights... and it bugs them that someone else got so popular and so much attention from basically the same thing they made, so they rip it apart about everything (use of budget, story, why do lightsabers, etc etc ETC).

Rvd2 was really well made and I wish the creators the best of luck with it smile

-MAGIC
Posted: Sat, 10th Mar 2007, 12:26am

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Aculag

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Magic_man12 wrote:

The problem is most of the people here have made the same "me vs a buddy" lightsaber fights... and it bugs them that someone else got so popular and so much attention from basically the same thing they made
Well, take a look at 80% of the "me vs a buddy" lightsaber fights posted on the internet, and then make the same comparison. They're not anywhere near as quality as the RVD movies.
Posted: Sat, 10th Mar 2007, 1:20am

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jmax

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How about "me vs. my buddies" pool cue fights? There aren't many of those...
Posted: Sat, 10th Mar 2007, 6:27am

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Aculag

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Okay. Yeah... I guess you're right... Um...
Posted: Sun, 11th Mar 2007, 12:44am

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WeLuvMovies

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For what it was, it was great. As for the budget and camera they used... I would've made a film out of it, not a fanfilm. I feel that they both have grown tremendously in their film-making skills. The technical aspect has me applausing them, but I've watched it 3 times and am tired of it. It isn't an entertaining piece, just very pretty. I would love to see these guys make a film, I feel they would really bring a polished high end look to anything they do. Just need substance.
Posted: Sun, 11th Mar 2007, 3:57am

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DorkmanScott

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Rating: +6

Since this is an effects forum, I thought I'd talk a little bit about some of the less-noticable effects that went into the film.

The first shot is the only one without a before-and-after comparison, as it's not really necessary. One major difference between the two films, of course, was that we shot and mastered RvD2 in 720p High Definition. This, plus the added color resolution of DVCPRO (4:2:2 as opposed to miniDV's 4:1:1) meant there was a lot more detail to deal with and pay attention to than there had been in the original RvD:



Look closely at my glasses to see what I mean. In the original RvD, there was one shot, with three frames, where you could see the stunt blade through the glasses and I added a "refraction" over that blade. In RvD2, it happened a LOT more often. This is only one frame of a surprisingly large handful where it was necessary.

Okay, next shot:

The long dolly shot where some people think we should see reflections, they may not be entirely wrong. In the original shot you could actually see the shadows of the sabers very clearly in the reflective metal background. We didn't worry about prop shadows for most of the film, but in this case they were quite prominent, and so we removed them. We considered replacing them with reflections, but determined that it would be too distracting and call too much attention to itself, so we decided against it.



In this next shot, aside from the obvious effects of adding damage to the wall, there's an effect that's less apparent (hopefully not at all). When I kicked him to push him back up against the wall, my arm swung forward to balance me. It was the arm holding the lightsaber, and though I initially just added the saber blade, we decided that it was too clear at that moment that with a flick of my wrist I could end the fight, with my arm in that position. So we opted to remove it entirely during the middle portion of the shot.



Every shot where you see the wall has digital damage tracked to it. But this shot had a particular challenge. We shot without giving as much though as we should have to what was in the background of each shot. So not only do you see the wall in the shot, but you ALSO see a piece of machinery that we had moved against it to get it out of the way during the shoot. Instead of just tracking the damage to the wall, Ryan had to completely remove the machinery as well.



For the shot where he cuts through my saber, he actually built an emitter with a damaged end that could spin freely, with a digital glow added, and sparks and smoke composited in. But one thing that may not be immediately apparent is, he only built the emitter, not an entire saber. Instead, we placed a plain silver tube under his foot, and lined up the emitter with that. We thought initially that it might not matter, but given the angle and the resolution of the shot, we decided it did, and composited the actual body of the saber into the shot, under his foot and behind the spinning emitter.



We got the very last shot only moments before we had to leave and catch our flight at the airport. This meant that we got the shot in the afternoon, whereas the rest of the film had been shot in the middle of the night. There were some windows and skylights with sunlight streaming through them, and it was impossible, using only the available lighting, to expose both myself and the very reflective metal objects behind me correctly.

We opted to shoot exposed for me, of course, and then from the same camera position shot the machinery from several different exposures, trying to bring back the detail and remove the inconsistently blown-out highlights. I took an exposure I thought looked right, and tracked and composited it over the machinery.



The shot is still probably brighter than it should be, but there's only so much you can do.
Posted: Sun, 11th Mar 2007, 4:52am

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Thrawn

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That is really cool!! Nice job doing that. I still cant believe how people can edit things out with photoshop like that... you guys worked hard for this.
Good Job!!

Thrawn
Posted: Sun, 11th Mar 2007, 8:39am

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Redhawksrymmer

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Great work guys! It looks really awesome, and I guess the best review you could get is that I didn't really think of any of those things, since it all looked pretty real wink
Posted: Sun, 11th Mar 2007, 10:24am

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Rawree

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Can I be really cheeky and ask for a few details on how you did all the damage to the wall. I have a few ideas about how you managed the different levels of damage (burn marks, slices and the melting effect a-la Episode 1) but I'd appreciate any information.
Posted: Sun, 11th Mar 2007, 3:25pm

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Atom

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Dorkman, what I find (sort of) a shame is that after you guys did all this amazing, seamless CG work (it really is amazing), you decided to write in you getting your arm severed, which, IMO, is cliche for a SW-based fight, and the CG covering the end of the nub was noticeable as CG. Not JUST because it didn't actually happen, so my brain knew it couldn't be real, but because it looked a tad fake. Not to say it was bad, but when everything else is so....perfect, it's hard to try and include something that's not so. Sorry, I dunno if I'm making much sense.

Basically, all the little nuances of the effects you showed have been amazingly real, but when you throw in the fake nub arm, it sort of diminishes the credibility of every other effect in the movie. It reminds me that what I'm watching didn't happen, that it wasn't real. Perhaps that's the mantra you wanted to engender, and if it is then disregard what I'm saying; but as a future reference: I wouldn't include 3D CG if I didn't have to, I think it cheapens the suspension of disbelief.
Posted: Sun, 11th Mar 2007, 3:34pm

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Rawree

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Rating: +2

Atom wrote:

I wouldn't include 3D CG if I didn't have to, I think it cheapens the suspension of disbelief.
You must've completely missed the point of the entire clip. Also, and I'll try not to put too fine a point on this: Did the big glowing sticks and levitation not hamper your suspension of disbelief? Because I imagine they would if you were bothered by some "fake looking" dismemberment.
Posted: Sun, 11th Mar 2007, 5:56pm

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Jabooza

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I noticed that neer the end of the film the enviornment beggan to brighten and get a bit of a yellowish tint to it and now that Dorkman mentions that the last shot was in the afternoon I'm starting to think it wasn't supposed to look like that. But I thought it looked cool and epic.
Posted: Sun, 11th Mar 2007, 9:42pm

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DorkmanScott

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I actually discussed that particular effect in the interview we did for Renderosity.

Long story short, the original intention was actually to shoot the shots of the stump practically, with a prosthetic effect. But the prop-maker went through some personal issues that prevented us from getting it in time. We were going to have it before we left for the shoot...then he was going to overnight it so we'd have it the second day of shooting...then the third...etc.

We were left, on the last night of shooting, without an ending to the film, and nothing to shoot it with, so we changed our plan and shot with the intention of adding a digital stump later somehow. One of Ryan's co-workers did it for us.

It was the preference of both of us not to have to use 3D elements for the shot, but it came down to us not having any other option. Had we more time to plan it, we probably would have shot it differently, but we got what we got. I agree that it could look better, but I disagree that it damages the integrity of any of the other effects.

Last edited Sun, 11th Mar 2007, 9:46pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Sun, 11th Mar 2007, 9:45pm

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Sollthar

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I actually liked that effect very much. It looked cool to me.
Posted: Sun, 11th Mar 2007, 9:51pm

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ben3308

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To step back a second, I accidentally wrote Atom's previous post while he was logged in. Some problem with the cookies in Firefox, I logged in, but his name showed up. Weird.

DorkmanScott wrote:

I agree that it could look better, but I disagree that it damages the integrity of any of the other effects.
"Ruin" was too strong a word to use. I just think it perhaps takes you out of the intensity of the movie, and makes you say, "oh look, a 3D arm!" Not that I could've or would've done better, but I do think it damages the integrity somewhat.

But, as you said, push came to shove, and you do what you need to finish. So I'm with you on that one.
Posted: Sun, 11th Mar 2007, 9:58pm

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Sollthar

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I think it really depends on your viewing position. Because in my case - not being much impressed by the lightsaber battle or anything - the 3D arm was the one thing that stood out and made me go: "WHOA, that's neat!" and rewind back several times.

So it had the opposite effect on me then on Ben.

It was the thing that impressed me most I'd say in the whole video. Because while lightsabers, light corrections and scratches in the wall are cool, they didn't really "impress me", if you know what I mean. A 3D severed limb on the other hand appears to be the most difficult effect to get right. Hence that really did put a big wow-grin on my face.

It's funny with effects. When they look real, no one will notice them and give you credit for it. When they look like effects, people complain. Hehe. Filmmaking is great fun. wink
Posted: Sun, 11th Mar 2007, 10:09pm

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Aculag

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ben3308 wrote:

To step back a second, I accidentally wrote Atom's previous post while he was logged in. Some problem with the cookies in Firefox, I logged in, but his name showed up. Weird.
Haha. You guys have been doing that since you first joined up here. You'd think you'd have figured it out by now. smile
Posted: Mon, 12th Mar 2007, 3:27pm

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Simon K Jones

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Somewhat late to the party here, as I was without the Internet for the last week (and surrounded by sheep). I've now caught up on both RvD2 and this thread, sooo....

First off, it's a shame that a few people have had such foul attitudes in this thread - though it's good to see that most of them have since apologised. It's not what I expect to see on FXhome.com, really, and it's unfortunate that this had to happen in such a public thread that has no doubt been viewed by many 'outsiders'. Hopefully the actions of a few won't have tarnished the reputation of everybody else or the website in general.

Moving on from that - I really liked RvD2. And that's saying something - I've lost count of how many lightsaber movies I've had to watch over the years as the person in charge of the FXhome cinema, some good, some bad, so I'm really very bored of the genre in general by now! So for RvD2 to entertain me is really saying something.

However, I would definitely agree with others that I want to see R&D move on to some non-Star Wars projects. The whole Star Wars 'thing' ended for me with episode 3, so the subject matter and lightsabers in general don't really hold the same appeal for me that they used to, especially given that we all know how easy they are to do technically these days.

Technically RvD2 is really very good - superb camerawork and decent editing (other than a slightly flabby bit round the middle, I thought, with the rather drawn-out Force-pulling of the hilts) combined with very solid effects. The wall burning and general sparks along the floor impressed me the most, not least because they were filmed in such a way as to make them appear very natural. The shoulder impaling was also very effective.

Overall a brilliant effects and filmmaking showreel (great music, too) that will no doubt gather an even larger group of admirers than the original. I can't wait to see what the guys do next - hopefully an original concept.

Also, kudos to Dorkman for posting so intelligently here and displaying such restraint, when he really had every right to respond angrily. I hope you'll stick around at FXhome.com as I'm sure your knowledge would prove useful to many. Thanks for posting the before/after pics, I've always been a fan of 'invisible' effects. If you've got anymore examples, I for one would love to see them!
Posted: Tue, 13th Mar 2007, 3:16am

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Serpent

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That VFX breakdown was great, I love stuff like that. For those FXHomers who aren't TF.Ners, TF.N member PixelMagic apparently helped out on the visuals and he broke it down here:

http://www.danielbroadway.michaelfrisk.com/TRAILER/rvd2_pm_web.mov

Very cool stuff.
Posted: Wed, 14th Mar 2007, 6:41am

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Corby

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i love seeing those before and after shots too! they really show how much work was put into it
Posted: Fri, 16th Mar 2007, 10:57am

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Stepladder

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I just wanted to say that I've been a fan of Ryan - and indeed Dorkman, for several years, since before they did RvD1, and have myself spoken to Ryan about films and effects. I hate to see so many people in the FXhome community bashing a pair of great entertainers, people with such high levels of talent that they're making professional-quality productions that most people in this community, myself included, just flat out don't know how to do, and it makes people jealous. I know I'm jealous, I'm fighting with myself to email Ryan and ask him how he did some of those effects! RvD was not the inspiration for the Unwritten Rule Trilogy, Art of the Saber was, but RvD sure as hell made us push ourselves to be a little better. And Ryan's tutorials on his site and advice helped make my films better, which I'm sure many of us can relate to. In fact it was because of him that I saw many of the things I wanted to do were possible, which eventually led me to Fxhome.

Anyway, I look forward to seeing more from Ryan and Dorkman, and reading fewer nasty posts from jealous people.
Posted: Fri, 16th Mar 2007, 11:04am

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Simon K Jones

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Stepladder wrote:

I hate to see so many people in the FXhome community bashing a pair of great entertainers
Agreed. No matter your opinion on the movie quality, there was really no excuse for some of the personal insults flying around at the start of this thread.

However, I wouldn't describe it as 'so many people' - it was really only a few repeat offenders, and shouldn't be taken to be representative of the FXhome community in general. Unfortunately, as always, the unpleasant and rude people tend to come across as noisier than the polite and thoughtful ones.

I think Dorkman's conduct in this thread will have corrected any misconceptions that certain members seemed to want to spread about his and Ryan's attitudes and professionalism.
Posted: Fri, 16th Mar 2007, 11:11am

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Stepladder

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However, I wouldn't describe it as 'so many people' - it was really only a few repeat offenders, and shouldn't be taken to be representative of the FXhome community in general.
Oh I know, I only meant that I was surprised that even a small handful of people - on an effects/film enthusiast forum no less - would be kicking up such a fuss about such a great piece of entertainment.

I think Dorkman's conduct in this thread will have corrected any misconceptions that certain members seemed to want to spread about his and Ryan's attitudes and professionalism.
Agreed.
Posted: Sat, 24th Mar 2007, 10:06am

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DorkmanScott

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We're opening up the floor to questions for the composers of the original score. In about a week we'll be recording an interview with the composers, for inclusion on the soundtrack CD, using these questions.
Posted: Sat, 24th Mar 2007, 1:27pm

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Corby

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i've got a question: what musicians , besides John Williams and Hans Zimmer, influenced them when composing the music?
Posted: Thu, 29th Mar 2007, 6:44pm

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Mandalorian

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You might find out in the Soundtrack. People are sending questions to Ryan and Dorkman to ask the composers. I'm sure someone asked this question so just look out for it.
Posted: Thu, 29th Mar 2007, 9:04pm

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Simon K Jones

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Mandalorian wrote:

You might find out in the Soundtrack. People are sending questions to Ryan and Dorkman to ask the composers. I'm sure someone asked this question so just look out for it.
Er, that's why Corby asked his question. Look at the post just above Corby's - it's Dorkman asking for questions. smile
Posted: Sat, 14th Apr 2007, 7:39pm

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Merrick

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The effects, I can tell, were very hard to achive, but there was something about them that just didn't look real. I think that they have gone too far trying to make the effects stand out. Effects are best if they are not noticed.
Posted: Sun, 15th Apr 2007, 12:23am

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drspin98

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Great! Blows away Art of the Saber in every respect, except for maybe a "plot". The acting is a lot better than I expected, nice facial expressions during. The kicks and punches are pretty weak though, but that's just looking for something to criticize.

The camera work is outstanding. Loved the top shot through the metal grating, and the opposite direction (I'm sure there's probably a technical term for the technique) of the camera when they are running-AWESOME! I watched that part 6 or so times! In that one they avoided the temptation to overdo a super cool look.

The sparingly used comedy was also very well done. 6/5!
Posted: Fri, 27th Apr 2007, 8:15pm

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Crav3r

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i liked that film!! =D
Posted: Tue, 1st May 2007, 2:59pm

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drspin98

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I have watched it a couple more times and would like to modify my previous opinion (I'm sure everyone was waiting anxiously for this-LOL).

The two individually alone have very limited sword/athletic skills. If either one was to pick up a weapon, I doubt he would impress you by the way he wielded it. This is where AOTS is clearly better, the one fellow has some serious martial arts/athletic/sword skills. What makes this fight great is the dance they do. Super well thought out and practiced.

I am wondering why with that cool warehouse they did not move the fight anywhere but on the ground. That is what makes the fight in SWE3 cool, they are fighting on a ton of different terrains. This fight would have benefited from going up on some of that steel structure.

I do now agree, the "fight" acting isn't going to win any Oscar, but the actors did a great job anytime they injected any humor. Weak punches and kicks detract from the rest of the fantastic action.

Still 6/5!
Posted: Thu, 3rd May 2007, 8:59pm

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DorkmanScott

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If anyone's still interested, we've posted a version of the film with the isolated score (no sound effects, just the music) on YouTube.