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3ccd Camcorder.

Posted: Mon, 12th Mar 2007, 2:41am

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ssj john

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Do any of you know of cheap 3ccd camcorder, mainly under $1000?

And also do any of you know of Camcorder's that may not be 3ccd but that can work with depth of field?

If you can help thanks alot, if there is already a thread similar to this, feel free to point me in the right direction and erase this thread.

Cheers
-JOhn-
Posted: Mon, 12th Mar 2007, 2:50am

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Hendo

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Panasonic's GS line of 3 chip cams will fit in that budget. Some of the more popular models have been discontinued, like the GS400, but you should be able to find the GS500 or GS320 around.
Posted: Mon, 12th Mar 2007, 4:00am

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Kid

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Be careful buying a 3ccd camera for the sake of it. Manufacturers have caught onto the trend and started putting them in everything. 3ccd does not necesarily mean a good cam. Its best to check some out and see how they film beforehand.
Posted: Mon, 12th Mar 2007, 4:15am

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Magic_man12

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Hendo wrote:

Panasonic's GS line of 3 chip cams .....
Amen!

Go for panasonic's GS series... get one with a manual focus ring (models 200 and up I beleive). Its no dvx100.. but it opens you up to alot of things for cheap. I've done club promo videos and several weddings with my GS 200.

-MAGIC
Posted: Mon, 12th Mar 2007, 4:16am

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ssj john

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Yeah, my biggest priority is manual settings....
Posted: Mon, 12th Mar 2007, 4:24am

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Kid

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the vx2100 or xm2/gl2 are quite good. The canon is known to have tape problems under heavy use though.

Some of the panasonics rule. They came out with the first prosumer camera and it was pretty good.
Posted: Mon, 12th Mar 2007, 5:00am

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BringPopcorn

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You could probably get a decent GL1 for $1000.
Posted: Mon, 12th Mar 2007, 5:22am

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Anne

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are there good 3 ccd camcorders that take quality digital photos too?
Posted: Mon, 12th Mar 2007, 5:53am

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ben3308

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Get a GL2, man. If you're used to being around the XL2, the GL2 is like its little brother.

If you buy a Panasonic GS model, I can guarantee you you'll regret it. They bought 4 of them for my brother's video class, and though they're 3CCDs with native 16:9, their settings and general image output are put to serious shame when compared to pretty much any other robust 3CCD. Long story short, people in my bro's class have waited up to one week to borrow/use the GL2 to film their stuff even when the GS400's are open to operate.

The GS-series certainly has a better image than 1CCD miniDV run-of-the-mill contenders, but up against even outdated prosumers like the Sony VX-series or any of the L-series Canon cameras, the GS fails.

Why buy a "new 3CCD!!!!111one1!1!!!" cam when the old prosumer 3CCDs are tested, tried, and true. Ultimately, it's up to you. I know you've probably seen some stuff from my GL2 by now, so I needn't bother you with that, just exercise caution if you're considering the Panasonic. Really weigh your options.
Posted: Mon, 12th Mar 2007, 10:07am

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Nutbar

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The problem with buying 2nd hand is if you have any problems you're screwed, if it breaks 2 weeks after you buy it then you've wasted a lot of money. If you buy a new camera and have any problems you'll atleast have some support.

I've just got a gs300 and the picture quality is pretty awesome. Sure, a $1500+ camera will yeild better results (there's a reason why its $1500+) but if you dont want to spend too much money i'd recommend the gs series, the only thing that I would change is the lack of focus ring. Don't excercise caution buying the GS, excercise caution if you buy a 2nd hand camera.
Posted: Mon, 12th Mar 2007, 10:10am

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petet2

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Anne wrote:

are there good 3 ccd camcorders that take quality digital photos too?
Really you want to think about keeping still photography and video photography separate. I know it can seem more convenient to combine both into one unit but in my experience this means compromising the facilities of one or the other (or both). For any serious use you need to have a separate still camera and video camera.
Posted: Mon, 12th Mar 2007, 3:09pm

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ccirelli

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ssj john wrote:

Do any of you know of cheap 3ccd camcorder, mainly under $1000?
I have the Panasonic PS GV-180, got it for $400 from a reputable eBay Store, and it's a super bargain. The small size is a blessing and a curse, and the image quality is up there with some more expensive cameras. Grab an extra battery for it if you plan on shooting remotely a lot.

For another $1000 or so, I would say get a GL2. But for the money, the Panasonic has been really great.
Posted: Mon, 12th Mar 2007, 4:13pm

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pdrg

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Anne wrote:

are there good 3 ccd camcorders that take quality digital photos too?
No - MiniDV camcorders are optimised to 420 (or somewhere around that) lines, whereas a decent $300 digital stills camera will shoot at many times that resolution in a fraction of the size in worse light and far better quality. Similarly, don't expect a stills camera to make a good video camera - maybe good enough for 'animals do the stupidest things part 999' or something, but not watchable for more than 10 seconds at a time
Posted: Mon, 12th Mar 2007, 4:55pm

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Anne

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pdrg wrote:


No - MiniDV camcorders are optimised to 420 (or somewhere around that) lines, whereas a decent $300 digital stills camera will shoot at many times that resolution in a fraction of the size in worse light and far better quality. Similarly, don't expect a stills camera to make a good video camera - maybe good enough for 'animals do the stupidest things part 999' or something, but not watchable for more than 10 seconds at a time
Really you want to think about keeping still photography and video photography separate. I know it can seem more convenient to combine both into one unit but in my experience this means compromising the facilities of one or the other (or both). For any serious use you need to have a separate still camera and video camera.
That's what I was thinking, I just didnt know if there was actually a camcorder that would take good pictures. See, I'm probably going to be traveling in Europe sometime this summer, and I would like to get footage and take photos [I'd like to get a D-SLR], but I dont think I'll have enough money by then to get both. Oh Well.
Posted: Mon, 12th Mar 2007, 5:24pm

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ccirelli

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Oh, another note on the newer Panasonic 3CCD camcorders: the newer models in that price range ($400 - $600) do NOT allow for audio-in (you can't use an external mic). This is why I went with the GV-180, which does allow for audio in - but I had to search to find one. I also picked up a Rode VideoMic for it, so I got a nice setup for less than $600. smile

I figured this would be important to most filmmakers, so make sure to read those tech specs before buying.
Posted: Mon, 12th Mar 2007, 5:51pm

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petet2

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Anne wrote:

pdrg wrote:


No - MiniDV camcorders are optimised to 420 (or somewhere around that) lines, whereas a decent $300 digital stills camera will shoot at many times that resolution in a fraction of the size in worse light and far better quality. Similarly, don't expect a stills camera to make a good video camera - maybe good enough for 'animals do the stupidest things part 999' or something, but not watchable for more than 10 seconds at a time
Really you want to think about keeping still photography and video photography separate. I know it can seem more convenient to combine both into one unit but in my experience this means compromising the facilities of one or the other (or both). For any serious use you need to have a separate still camera and video camera.
That's what I was thinking, I just didnt know if there was actually a camcorder that would take good pictures. See, I'm probably going to be traveling in Europe sometime this summer, and I would like to get footage and take photos [I'd like to get a D-SLR], but I dont think I'll have enough money by then to get both. Oh Well.
What about a video camera and a new mobile phone with camera built in? I was out at the weekend and a friend had one with a 3 mega pixel camera built in and the quality was ok even in a dark night club.
Posted: Mon, 12th Mar 2007, 7:25pm

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pdrg

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Horses for Courses - if the pictures were good enough for you, then fine, if not, then not!

Just remember US mobiles don't all work on European networks
Posted: Mon, 12th Mar 2007, 7:46pm

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DavidLittlefield

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I vote for Panasonic Gs series as well. I just purchased a PV-GS300 which is now discontinued, I'm glad I got it in time! I recommend them.
Posted: Mon, 12th Mar 2007, 10:28pm

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skywalker dan

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i recently got the panasonic nvg280, i cant recommend enough. it dose not have a manual focus ring which is a bit of a bummer but you can adjust the focus manualy is all is not lost.

the picture quality is VERY good, better than i was expecting for the price, however i dont think the lcd screen is that great, but once you get the footage on to your comp you wont be disapointed. i promise.

dan.
Posted: Tue, 13th Mar 2007, 12:12am

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Gnome326

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The GS-series certainly has a better image than 1CCD miniDV run-of-the-mill contenders, but up against even outdated prosumers like the Sony VX-series or any of the L-series Canon cameras, the GS fails.
I beg to differ.
Posted: Tue, 13th Mar 2007, 12:15am

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Super Cameraman

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Me too. GS and fails don't belong in the same sentence. Ever.

(Unless the sentence is "The GS series never fails!)


-Super
Posted: Tue, 13th Mar 2007, 1:22am

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ben3308

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Put any of the Panasonic GS models up against footage from Sony VX2100 or Canon GL2, and the latter outperform them in most every scenario. Though it sounds a bit forthright, when matched up to its counterparts, it does, indeed, fail.

Post up comparison videos, I'll be glad to prove my point.
Posted: Tue, 13th Mar 2007, 3:32am

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ssj john

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ben3308 wrote:

Get a GL2, man. If you're used to being around the XL2, the GL2 is like its little brother.

If you buy a Panasonic GS model, I can guarantee you you'll regret it. They bought 4 of them for my brother's video class, and though they're 3CCDs with native 16:9, their settings and general image output are put to serious shame when compared to pretty much any other robust 3CCD. Long story short, people in my bro's class have waited up to one week to borrow/use the GL2 to film their stuff even when the GS400's are open to operate.

The GS-series certainly has a better image than 1CCD miniDV run-of-the-mill contenders, but up against even outdated prosumers like the Sony VX-series or any of the L-series Canon cameras, the GS fails.

Why buy a "new 3CCD!!!!111one1!1!!!" cam when the old prosumer 3CCDs are tested, tried, and true. Ultimately, it's up to you. I know you've probably seen some stuff from my GL2 by now, so I needn't bother you with that, just exercise caution if you're considering the Panasonic. Really weigh your options.
I agree, but there are some important factors that I am weighing in when deciding which camera to buy....

In no particular order.

1. Image quality
2. Manual settings
3. cost
4. How fast can I get it...which is effected by cost

The bottom line is that I need a camera soon! But I don't want to settle with a crappy camera and I don't want to save up for a year to get a really nice one. I'd like to find the balance inbetween.

I would love a gl-2, but the fact is I cant find one for under $2000, if you have, plz by all means point me in the right direction. I would settle with an xl1 also.
Posted: Tue, 13th Mar 2007, 4:52am

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Serpent

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If you think the GL2 etc. are too much, I would honestly consider a Canon GL-1 that is in great condition. The manual settings allow you to customize every aspect of the camera, it has a nice lens (something you wont get out of a Panasonic GS-____). Comes with a builtin ND filter. The handle on the top allows some great hand held situations. It also shoots in anamorphic 16:9 wide screen. The built in mic is nice, and you have the ability to use a stereo jack mic (or XLR converted to stereo). For kicks, here's a screen grab shot in almost no light with the gain up to 9 (accident). It is also full scale, but a little compressed (not much):



The GL-1 has been very reliable. It doesn't produce images as sharp as the GL2 et al, but it's a small step up from the newer GS series from Panasonic with more 3rd party gear, nicer lens, more proffesional body (that makes handling easier), and it costs just as much, if not less. The downside is that it'll probably be used and lacks 1st party warranty. But the Canon support is always useful. This is just one of your options.
Posted: Tue, 13th Mar 2007, 5:28am

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ben3308

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I'd say the order you should buy a camera in is such:

1. GL2
2. XL1
3. GL1
4. GS-series

And the first three are going to be SIGNIFICANTLY better than he Panasonic. The lenses are simply superior.
Posted: Tue, 13th Mar 2007, 6:46am

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the new godfather

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Citizen Kane was filmed with both the foreground and the background in focus...


wink
Posted: Tue, 13th Mar 2007, 7:20am

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ssj john

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ok lets all copy citizen Kane smile
Posted: Tue, 13th Mar 2007, 7:46am

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hippa03

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Why all this negativity against Panasonic GS models. I own the GS200 and my work was even broadcaasted on the local television stations, and all my friends and movie enthusiasts where amazed at the good quality of the products shown.
Posted: Tue, 13th Mar 2007, 1:11pm

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ccirelli

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ben3308 wrote:

I'd say the order you should buy a camera in is such:

1. GL2
2. XL1
3. GL1
4. GS-series

And the first three are going to be SIGNIFICANTLY better than he Panasonic. The lenses are simply superior.
Guys. Wait a second, hold on. Please re-read the first line of the original post from this thread:
Do any of you know of cheap 3ccd camcorder, mainly under $1000?
This guy's not looking for a camera that's "significantly better than the Panasonic". He's looking for a 3CCD model under $1000. There is nothing wrong with the Panasonic PS / GV series. It's inexpensive, it's reliable, and the image quality is rated well above most if not all other makes and models in that price range (and a bit higher). I own one. I also own a GL2, and an XL2. They are all fine cameras, and they have their purpose. But, the person that started this thread is not looking for an expensive camera.

Buying used gear? I wouldn't do it. That's just my opinion. Unless you really know how and when and where the camera was used, you're taking a big risk. They're not cheap to repair. Again, just my $.02.
Posted: Tue, 13th Mar 2007, 7:32pm

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Lithium Kraft

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Yeah, seriously. He's not asking to spend a ton of money on the best of the best, he's asking to spend a little bit on a camera that will serve him well.

I own a GS250 and I can tell you I have yet to see a noticable difference between it and those other cameras. I've gotten amazing picture results from it and I don't regret the purchase one bit, even after seeing footage from some of those other cameras.

Not to mention it was half the price and is MUCH easier to handle than some big bulky thing resting on your shoulder.

Sure, it's limited a bit in what it can do, but that is hardly a reason to not consider it as a good option for the consumer on a budget.
Posted: Tue, 13th Mar 2007, 9:01pm

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Serpent

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ccirelli wrote:

Buying used gear? I wouldn't do it. That's just my opinion. Unless you really know how and when and where the camera was used, you're taking a big risk. They're not cheap to repair. Again, just my $.02.
I had to pay $400 on a repair on my GL1's tape deck. Very painful to use that much money on used equipment, but it has served me well since.

Another thing to consider is size. Are you going to use this for filmmaking, or vacation and adventure videos as well (I know you snowboard and stuff). That is one of the pluses of the Panasonic (it's small).

Lithium Kraft: Saying that it's easier to handle is not always true. If you are shooting while travelling, yeah it'd be easier. But having a shoulder mount is a feature people pay extra for. It makes it easier to work the camera in a filmmaking situation.
Posted: Tue, 13th Mar 2007, 9:17pm

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Lithium Kraft

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Yeah, that's true, I just meant it's smaller and lighter, so people might have an easier time maneuvering it. I guess it's all in the personal preference.
Posted: Tue, 13th Mar 2007, 9:28pm

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DavidLittlefield

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Personally, I don't really care for smaller cameras. My Panasonic PV-GS300 is pretty small, and I'm getting used to it, but it never really feels comfortable. But that's just my opinion
Posted: Sun, 18th Mar 2007, 12:14am

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the new godfather

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I have a pv-gs150...

With proper cinematography and use of the incredibly powerful NLEs on the market it works just fine. Learn to use what you have, then when you do upgrade, you'll be able to take advantage of the camera's new features. A few extra grand in the pocket is another bonus.

bar none.
Posted: Sun, 18th Mar 2007, 12:36am

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ben3308

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Do you absolutely need the camera right now? Think of the long run: biting the bullet and purchasing a GL1, GL2, XL1, XL1s, or XL2 will prove very beneficial in the whole scope of things.

The fact that you're probably adept at using Aaron's Canon cameras is also a plus- you have experience with them. Most of the GS's stuff must be done through a menu, hardly the "on the fly" settings required of snowboard/extreme footage.
Posted: Sun, 18th Mar 2007, 12:51am

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the new godfather

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true, while filming some fast paced chases and stradycam scenes, the gs lacks the "on the fly" control....

ben, check out this short i made for class... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsMBcqlZIBw
Posted: Sun, 25th Mar 2007, 11:36pm

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FreshMentos

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hey, I stumbled upon this website: http://www.expresscameras.com/welcome.asp

Their deals for their camcorders seem too good to be true but the website looks pretty convincing. But I saw that they had a Canon GL2 retailing for $759!! maybe they find a way to scam you, but I think the site is still worth a look.
Posted: Mon, 26th Mar 2007, 12:28am

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ben3308

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Rating: +1

FreshMentos wrote:

hey, I stumbled upon this website: http://www.expresscameras.com/welcome.asp

Their deals for their camcorders seem too good to be true but the website looks pretty convincing. But I saw that they had a Canon GL2 retailing for $759!! maybe they find a way to scam you, but I think the site is still worth a look.
Uh, yeah. They're a scam company.

Don't buy from Express Cameras, alright? I have proof!

So we're good, then? smile
Posted: Mon, 26th Mar 2007, 12:40am

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FreshMentos

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Few! thanks ben! I was actually considering buying from that website! What do you think would be the minimum price for a GL2 then?
Posted: Mon, 26th Mar 2007, 12:51am

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ben3308

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$1500, and that's only if you get a really, really good deal. Otherwise something from $1850-$2200 would be realistic. eBay has some around $1700 if you're lucky.
Posted: Wed, 4th Apr 2007, 6:05pm

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the new godfather

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thats a lot of $$
Posted: Fri, 13th Apr 2007, 2:40am

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ASTempleton

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I too have been getting close to a cam purchase, but the 3-CCD issue is just one consideration. Some others I've been wrestling with:

16:9 Native support w/o costly anamorphic optics. I guess the Panasonic AG-DVX100/A/B fails that one.

2 Channels of 16-bit audio, either 48kHz PCM or some lossless equivalent.

I'd like to get away from DV tapes, but internal-HDD camcorders are for now found mostly in the midrange consumer market. HDD or NLE streaming to a laptop seems like a good primary capture means until the prosumer mfrs finally put out internal HDDs with good capacity & encode quality.

XLR inputs, and/or feed by external mixer at line levels; ghost powering is not a must. So, scratch Sony HDR-FX1 on the XLRs

Excellence of color capture, lack of interlacing and compression artifacts to ease greenscreen work.

24P w/ 1/48 shutter for filmlike capture. Some think 24F is "close enough", others think it's awful and have vids to "prove" it.

Clear Scan or SynchroScan or some such for whenever I shoot CRTs -- but they're almost passe now, so this is optional.

Interchangeable lenses - not necessary, but adding a slight softening filter or external ND (film look again) would be a plus.

No wasted Firewire bandwidth on live streaming to my NLE (Vegas 7 for now).

Practically, a reputable Stateside/N.Am dealer. Like B&H but cheaper?

I have a hard time wading through the mess of capture/encoding/pulldown standards, and need a better understanding of the tradeoffs in shooting, streaming, and editing, say, in 24P (2:3) vs 24P (2:3:3:2). And how does that compare with Sony's CineFrame 24 (2:3:2:3)? As long as VisionLab handles it, maybe it's no biggie.

The Canon XH A1 is at the top of my short list for now, if I can "live with" 24F shooting.