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Marathon

Posted: Fri, 20th Jul 2007, 3:14pm

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Atom

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"It's not about winning, but finishing."

This was not only the mantra for the entire film, but for Atomic Productions as well. For those of you who didn't follow our progress thread, we missed the deadline for this contest, the 48-hour Film Project, by literally minutes. Without pushing blame on any single person, I must say personally that although it was its first year in Dallas, the organization and location (out-of-county, out-of-city!) of the 48-Hour Dallas was very, very poor, angered myself greatly, and played it's own part in the minutes lost in getting us in on time. (The interceptor of the miniDV tapes thought they were "miniDVDs", as in literally a dvd in a tape case, if that gives you an idea).

And, although we are all saddened by this, we're incredibly happy with the movie we made, extremely proud of what we accomplished literally in less than 48 hours, and pleased to share it with the FXHome community. To those of you who supported and helped us through it all, thank you.

Written, conceptualized, shot, and edited in a single 48-hour period, "Marathon" is Atomic Productions' entry into the Dallas 48-Hour Film Project. When given the genre "Comedy", after some deliberation, we opted for the 'Wild Card' and were given the genre "Sports Film". This, along with the character 'Bill Black, carpetcleaner', 'nail polish' as a prop, and "I owe you an apology" as a line of dialogue- we set off.

The result is "Marathon". So, go ahead, turn up your bass and enjoy!


More Info
Posted: Fri, 20th Jul 2007, 4:17pm

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Fill

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Downloading now! I'm super stoked to watch this!

I liked this one a lot. You did a much better job than I could of done with a sports theme.

A few things:

The camera was a bit shaky. I think a camera shake is appropriate for a running theme, but it was a bit over done. That might just be me.

The runner dieing didn't make that much sense to me. I couldn't tell that he was shot in the first place.

The contrast was way up there. It was almost distracting.


Overall it was great. I think it's up there with Cover's Story and Redemption. I really liked the "It's not about winning, it's about finishing." line. I thought that was clever.

4/5 Keep up the work!

Last edited Fri, 20th Jul 2007, 4:51pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Fri, 20th Jul 2007, 4:47pm

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KA Productions

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Very good job. I loved it. The cinematography is great, and clever ways to include the nail polish and carpenter dude.
And of course, your grading was great, matched the mood perfectly.

But I have one problem, and I cannot tell what happened to the marathon runner who was carrying the kid. Did he get shot? or passed out from exhaustion? Other than that, I loved the story.

I also saw you used some footage from your issues with the law wink

I will probably write a more detailed review later.
Posted: Fri, 20th Jul 2007, 5:08pm

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Serpent

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KA Productions wrote:

the nail polish and carpenter dude.
I can't stress this enough, a carpenter and a carpet cleaner are not one in the same. A carpenter works with wood and tools etc.

I'll edit this post later for a review. Very excited to see what you guys came up with.
Posted: Fri, 20th Jul 2007, 5:18pm

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doppelganger

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Awesome. The camera work was awesome, but as we all know camera work is personal taste so some wont like it. I liked how the opening and ending credits were all lower case. I liked the high contrast thought it made it look very cool. Favorite shot was when the camera was real close to the ground while the guys were running. The vo was good to. All the actors were good, better then most.

anyways 5/5 and to my top ten.
Posted: Fri, 20th Jul 2007, 6:05pm

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KA Productions

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Serpent wrote:

KA Productions wrote:

the nail polish and carpenter dude.
I can't stress this enough, a carpenter and a carpet cleaner are not one in the same. A carpenter works with wood and tools etc.

I'll edit this post later for a review. Very excited to see what you guys came up with.
.... I know that, I just got mixed up that one post... I just forgot the guys name, that was on the jacket, so I just said, the carpenter, cause I knew he was supposed to be a carpenter....
Posted: Fri, 20th Jul 2007, 6:13pm

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doppelganger

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KA Productions wrote:

cause I knew he was supposed to be a carpenter....
HES A CARPET CLEANER!

Carpenters work with wood... I think.

This guy is a Carpet Cleaner he cleans carpet... I think.
Posted: Fri, 20th Jul 2007, 6:39pm

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Evman

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You really really need a new server, as this 6 minutes and only 44 mb but is taking me almost an hour to download.

I will edit this post with a review when I've watched it. (Probably won't be for a while! razz )

EDIT:

Ok, I definitely saw things here that were good and bad.

Good:
- As always, cinematography - really fit the story you chose well
- From a technical standpoint - Editing was great (I'll get into this more later)
- A fair bit of the acting
- The overall feel was very nice, whereas it was consistent and whatnot.

Bad:
- My biggest problem with this (and half the reason why I'm taking my final score down so much) is because I really really did not like the fact that you took such an ordinary story and made it so extraordinary. This is a common thread in your work, but it never bothered me until this film. Cover's Story was ABOUT a kidnapping, Redemption was ABOUT a drug addict... so it made sense for those stories to be as dramatic as they were... This however came completely out of left field... They're running a marathon... the VO is talking about running... you see them running... ok this movie is going to be about running, but then it seemed kinda cheap and "out of nowhere" when it turned into something exactly like all your other work... I understand playing to your strengths, but I really wanted to see something new from you.

- Other big problem that goes along with the above is that I simply didn't understand what was going on. I know the one runner ran after the guy... and then the second runner stayed with the kid... but the kid didn't seem hurt, whereas the guy who was taking care of him almost died... Your editing was fantastic technically, but storytelling wise, I was very, very confused.

- What was your time limit on this? I would really have liked more background on characters and story... who are these runners? Why are they running on what seems to be urban terrain and not part of any race... yet they were wearing numbers as if they were... Maybe have a scene "pre-race" to give us some details, cause I honestly did not feel connected to the characters at all and at the end didn't really care what happened to them.

I was really hoping to see you branch out more and avoid your own cliches (somehow this happened even though, like Cover's Story, you managed to twist the given topic on its head)... it seemed like your previous work, but I really think it's lacking originality and inspiration. Even though you twisted the topic, the film was terribly cliche for the genre you chose instead... slow-mo, crying, screaming, pained looks and expressions. I couldn't help but cringe at the borderline unintentional cheesiness of some of it... I'd watch out for that cause I almost thought you had indeed decided to keep the comedy genre.

I know its hard to come up with something creative in that time frame, much less pull it off in time, but I personally would have liked to have seen you branch out and try something fresh. I seriously saw almost no evolution in storytelling (a bit in technical stuff, but that could have been cause of the HD cam) from any of your previous work.

I'd put this technically superior to most films on this site, with fantastic cinematography and editing choices... but the story was almost nonexistent, vague, and unoriginal.

I'm sorry guys... I was really looking forward to liking this, but perhaps thats why I was so let down in the end...

2/5

And please, please take "From the creators of Cover's Story" off of the banners... we know you made that movie and that just seems arrogant if it's not an intentional joke.

EDIT EDIT:

And please, don't take this as an "attack from the usual suspects" or as mean old Evman rating your film down just cause he's mean.

I honestly think you guys can do better if you listen to some of the advice I have to say and not immediately jump to the conclusion that I'm attacking you for the sake of attacking you... cause this time, I honestly am not.

Last edited Fri, 20th Jul 2007, 10:02pm; edited 2 times in total.

Posted: Fri, 20th Jul 2007, 6:41pm

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Fill

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Evman wrote:

You really really need a new server, as this 6 minutes and only 44 mb but is taking me almost an hour to download.

I will edit this post with a review when I've watched it. (Probably won't be for a while! razz )
I cursed when I saw the download time for this. I was so excited, haha.
Posted: Fri, 20th Jul 2007, 6:45pm

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Serpent

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KA Productions wrote:

Serpent wrote:

KA Productions wrote:

the nail polish and carpenter dude.
I can't stress this enough, a carpenter and a carpet cleaner are not one in the same. A carpenter works with wood and tools etc.

I'll edit this post later for a review. Very excited to see what you guys came up with.
.... I know that, I just got mixed up that one post... I just forgot the guys name, that was on the jacket, so I just said, the carpenter, cause I knew he was supposed to be a carpenter....
You mixed up a post in the other topic as. AND this one. He is not supposed to be a carpenter. CARPET Cleaner. CARPENTERS work with WOOD, not CARPETS. Seriously, if you are going to provide a retort to my response, at least read what I said so you don't repeat your mistake.

He was NOT supposed to be a carpenter. He was supposed to be a carpet cleaner.

Again, I'll edit latest for review, but I really had to post that. Bothering me a lot since it's happened 3 times now... I'm saving you embarassment away from the forum.

EDIT

I honestly loved this a lot. After reading the comments I thought it wouldn't make sense or be an overly moral tale. I think everything that was pulled off well was obvious, great end, and good use of fire rescue footage. Visually it was great and the editing worked out fantastically considering the time limit. Cool pyrotechnic shot as well. Costumes worked well. I think you pulled off sports genre with your style. The film was pretty creative overall. Visually fantastic and some good camera work: not a single shot was awkward or distracting, which is impressive given the time limit.

Critiques:

As an Atomic Prod viewer, this seemed a little "done already." But I suppose the style in which it was accomplished fits the time limit. The credit music cuts off rather quickly, but cool credits nonetheless. That's honestly it. Given the time limit and the time of the film, and the restrictions you got, well done. 5/5. Though I'd listen to what Sollthar said. It was a bit "same old" drama. But I still enjoyed it.

EDIT2: After thinking it over and reading the comments, I'd have to agree with others about the cliche in your work. I know I mentioned it and it didn't really bother me as much. But it was definitely there, so watch out for it. Developing characters was tough for something like this. The only reason I gave this a 5 instead of a 4 was because I knew that it was made in 48 hours. Let's see something that you guys work on in a month maybe. I definitely think you can do better. I think you guys do fantastic on a low budget, but I'd spend more time writing a better idea and then go all out one month. It seems that without a dead line, othe stuff of yours doesn't get done. All I've really seen is your ability to produce some nice stuff within 24/48 hour time periods. I want more. And as Aculag mentions later in this topic, and as I addressed in your hype topic: I am not a fan of the hype. It gets people watching I suppose, but it's a little ridiculous.

Last edited Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 2:11am; edited 3 times in total.

Posted: Fri, 20th Jul 2007, 10:51pm

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vilhelm nielsen

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So, I watched the film and:

Enjoyed:
- The Cinematography, as always.
- The Lighting, again as usual.
- The Grading.
- And finally, the Editing.

Didn't Enjoy:
- The Story, Evman pretty much got it right. It's an incoherent mess. I have no idea what was going on, except that the 2 guys were running. They see some guy (a kid) getting beat up. One of them runs after the "beat-up'er", the other carries the guy (the kid) even though he is obviously more hurt. Maybe that's just the acting from the kid's side, but I'll go into that a bit later. Why did he get beat up? Why were the dudes running? Was it a race? Was it practice?

- It's pretty Cliché, again Evmans got it. You turned this way more dramatic, than it should be. All the slow-motion running, we've seen that already. You've done this way too often. Do something different. Something Different than, slow-motion crying and yelling. Also you use guns a lot. That's okay, but try to test yourself. Do a short without the use of guns.

- It's too Rushed. This kinda goes with the story, but I'll give it's own space. I did NOT care one bit for the characters, at all. There were no back story, so I didn't know anything about the characters. Of course you didn't have time, because of the time limit. But you missed the time limit. Use that to your advanteges. Expand the story. Go deeper with the characters.
I think this is a problem with most of your films.

- The Kid. I do NOT want to be a "hater" or anything, but he seems misplaced. I know you're not Proffessional movie-makers, so you'll have to settle with what you've got. But he doesn't have much acting skills, nor did he really fit in to this movie. He was supposed to be an adult, but since everyone else clearly was older than him he didn't fit in. Don't take this the wrong way, he worked perfectly in Cover's Story.

All and all, it was decent. You guys obviously have some serious skills in Lighting, Cinematography, Editing and Grading, but you have to polish up a bit on your story-telling skills.

You guys should seriously make some videos about, cinematography and lighting. Some sort of behind the scenes.

I give it 2/5.
Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 12:08am

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Sollthar

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Hmmmmmm... Difficult. This felt very much like other work I've seen from you. Again, you're talent with cinematography and your visual sense is obvious - At the same level though, it keeps me wondering how much storytelling is in there.

You're a bit like Michael Bay to me. You're very good when it comes to do "visual effects", not as in computer effects or special effects, but simply do something that has an effect visually. You have this apparent "style" to your work you're good with. BUT it seems to be a very similar thing all the time. So while this "effect" worked and impressed me the first time I saw it, it seems that you're just repeating it now, instead of trying something new. Some new style or new "visual effect" that matches your story.
Instead, you seem to bend your stories until they match to that one visual style you have. If you know what I mean.

And in this case, I think it entirely didn't work. This was pretty confusing to watch. it started out great, good shots, nice voiceover. Could have been a nike commercial. Then suddenly it tried to be something entirely different - or as I said, it tried to be the same thing you've always done - overdramatic drama with guns and death. And it didn't work at all. At least not for me.


Technically solid with good acting, but storytelling / directing / vision / artistic integrity etc fall flat for me.
Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 12:29am

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Arktic

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Everything Sollthar just said... that's exactly what I think too.

This had a lot of promise, but it just doesn't live up to the 'hype', imho.
Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 1:56am

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Aculag

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Arktic wrote:

This had a lot of promise, but it just doesn't live up to the 'hype', imho.
This is why it's a bad idea to hype your own movies. Especially before they've even been made.

I understand that you guys are proud of yourselves for completing a movie in two days. That's no small feat, and it is hard to do, but it REALLY shows with this movie, unfortunately. Just as everyone else has already said, not in the techincal aspects (except overused shaky cam), but in the storytelling, and cohesion of the plot.

I think a few coverage shots would have helped greatly to tie this thing together, but maybe not much, sadly.
Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 2:27am

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Sollthar

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Serpent wrote:

All I've really seen is your ability to produce some nice stuff within 24/48 hour time periods. I want more.
Just read Serpents newest edit. smile

I agree with that statement, which is the exact reason you're still away from a 5 for me. It puzzles me really that in what... 2 years?... I've never actually seen a proper film from you. I always only see stuff that was done with utter timerestraints or "just for fun".

Is there ever gonna be a proper, original atomic productions film where you can show that you're capable of more then just nice imagery and shorts made up in 24 hours? (If that's what you want to do that is, or are you aiming to be cinematographers?)
Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 4:53am

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KA Productions

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Sorry serpent, I was being an ass. I knew I should not have made ANY of those comments but I did.

Well, I just finished reading through the reviews, and honestly, I cannot say much more.
Technically awesome
Conceptually (struggling to find a suitable word )-poor
But this was made in 48 hours. I can't do that. The shortest time that ever took me to make a movie is roughly 72hours, and it was crap compared to this, so you still get a 4/5 in my book wink
Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 5:38am

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ben3308

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Wow, you guys. I'm really, deeply dissappointed with some of the ratings. Ouch, man, especially for the considerably trivial 'cliche storytelling' reasons listed. Many of you have read entirely too much into what we were doing in this movie and have failed completely to judge it objectively, something I found shockingly rather ironic for Sollthar; who always stresses movies be judged this way.

You'll have to forgive me if I sound a bit frustrated, but......well I am, just a little. Here goes...

I want to make it perfectly clear that we made this movie for four core reasons:

-To follow the given criteria, however mild.

-To make a movie that would actually entertain people, bar none. Half-assed effects tests are fine, but we'd rather someone enjoy watching our movies for how cool and visually pleasing we've made them. Entertainment/information value is the core purpose of movies in my book, and that's something we try to excel at.

-To use our actors (Brian, Reese, Cole, and Josh) accordingly with heavy drama, what they'd said they wanted to do instead of comedy. We try to always listen to and respect the decisions of the team. Brian and Cole live hours away, and if all they can do is drama then that's what we're doing. Always listen to the team, otherwise you'll face mutiny. It's happened before (SC).

-To create something that was captivating that would also be substantial proof to our competition (because we were in a competition against others) that we were technically capable of a lot.

And now, onto the criticisms. Alright, I'll take these one-by-one, maybe everyone will understand better.

vilhelm nielsen wrote:

Why were the dudes running? Was it a race? Was it practice?
Yes, they were in a race. They're wearing racing badges pinned to running clothing, and they're introduced with shots of them passing other people wearing racing badges. Whether or not those are shots of the same race or just previous events of "Running!"(as the voiceover so eloquently puts it) is entirely up to the viewer. But yeah, they're in a race. I don't think it should matter which one or why, because both guys are obviously runners, and, as mentioned "everyone runs for something".

KA Productions wrote:

But I have one problem, and I cannot tell what happened to the marathon runner who was carrying the kid. Did he get shot? or passed out from exhaustion?
I'm going to outline what happens, really quickly, so maybe you can better understand it.

When the two runners- who are, indeed marathon runners; hence the attention to detail with the sports tanktops, the safety-pinned marathon numbers, and the running shoes- notice Bill Black pistol-whipping the kid (who is meant to be a kid, not an adult, make no mistake) they intervene by yelling and running down the levee.

Upon seeing the runners, Black fires two shots at them. One misses them completely but the other lands right near the main character, causing a dirt hit in the ground. Next, Black fires an ambiguous shot at the kid (where exactly it hits the kid is not known, so we have a little flexibility with storytelling as to how lethal his wound is) and promptly exits, ditching his jacket and gun.

We originally intended to have the main runner carry the kid until the kid died and have his comrade pursue Black until he escaped; but as many of you may know, Brian, the main runner, pulled a minor hernia while shooting and we were forced to think on our feet for a story arc that wouldn't require Brian to run or hold the kid for alot of shots. He just couldn't physically do that.

So, a few hours after Brian sustained his injury, we wrote in that the dirt hit was actually from a bullet that pierced Brian; and whilst his wound would obviously end up worse than the kid's, he would be the athlete engaged in sport, and would therefore be a much more substantial candidate for rescuing somebody. Ergo, yet another deeper facet of "sports" in the movie. It's just something we thought through, that we thought people would figure out. Think rehash of the biblical good Samaritan.

vilhelm nielsen wrote:

the Story, Evman pretty much got it right. It's an incoherent mess.
Consider viewing the movie once or twice more, perhaps it'll make more sense. Also, pay more attention to what the voice over is actually saying. It's in there for more reason than just sounding cool, I promise. We spent a great deal of time trying to make things as coherent as we could without compromising our production values- as that's what we were told we would be judged on.

Evman wrote:

My biggest problem with this (and half the reason why I'm taking my final score down so much) is because I really really did not like the fact that you took such an ordinary story and made it so extraordinary. This is a common thread in your work, but it never bothered me until this film. Cover's Story was ABOUT a kidnapping, Redemption was ABOUT a drug addict... so it made sense for those stories to be as dramatic as they were... This however came completely out of left field... They're running a marathon... the VO is talking about running... you see them running... ok this movie is going to be about running, but then it seemed kinda cheap and "out of nowhere" when it turned into something exactly like all your other work
Extraordinary things disrupt normal scenarios all the time.

That's practically the basis for most any movie ever made, save contemplative films like "Once" or "In America". A great example of what I'm trying to describe is the Cloverfield trailer you've obsessed about lately(wink). Completely normal stuff happens until something near-impossible interrupts it. The only difference is, with our stuff we try to inject as much drama and intensity as we can without pulling it too far away from reality. I for one think that's an effective means of telling an entertaining story, but to each his own on that one.

vilhelm nielsen wrote:

This kinda goes with the story, but I'll give it's own space. I did NOT care one bit for the characters, at all. There were no back story, so I didn't know anything about the characters. Of course you didn't have time, because of the time limit. But you missed the time limit. Use that to your advanteges. Expand the story. Go deeper with the characters. I think this is a problem with most of your films.
A story can only go so many ways, man, and I dare anyone to create a better background for four core characters in 6 minutes. This was a complaint for Cover's Story as well and it's an extremely difficult thing to do. A 'backstory' of sorts was something we attempted with this movie by showing the early morning shots of the runner rubbing his cold hands together and tying his shoes to show that he was dedicated to his craft and he'd do whatever it took to "finish the race".

That's about as deep as we can go in 7 minutes, and, for that matter, I don't think the characters really needed any more backstory. They're runners, and they're obviously put into a 'good Samaritan' situation where they decide to help. The reasons for any of this, at least in this context, don't really matter.

Think of it like the 'Rabbit's Foot' in M:I3 or the insane story arcs in any of Flannery O'Connor's writing- they'd be good to show, but short of adding a little bit to the character they do nothing for the time they'd be shown in.

vilhelm nielsen wrote:

- The Kid......He was supposed to be an adult, but since everyone else clearly was older than him he didn't fit in.
He was supposed to be a kid. I thought that, too, was obvious; that's why the runners who are clearly stronger and older than him are good characters to assist him, and why Black, who is immensely taller and bigger than all the characters, is markedly recognizable as a threatening bad guy.

Sollthar wrote:

You're a bit like Michael Bay to me. You're very good when it comes to do "visual effects", not as in computer effects or special effects, but simply do something that has an effect visually. You have this apparent "style" to your work you're good with. BUT it seems to be a very similar thing all the time. So while this "effect" worked and impressed me the first time I saw it, it seems that you're just repeating it now, instead of trying something new.
This is a completely disheartening statement to me. To dismiss the orchestration of production values like camerawork, staged locations, attention to costuming, actual good acting, and clever grading and editing flippantly as a mere "effect" is grossly frustrating to me. You realize this isn't, in any sense of the word, an easy thing to do, don't you? It's incredibly, incredibly difficult, actually, and it's annoying when you and many others just offhand refer to it as a thing of "style" that we just added for the hell of it.

I'm also disappointed you didn't mention sound design, which my brother worked harder on this time around to sound more intense and suspenseful, with 6 layered tracks at times.

Sollthar wrote:

Technically solid with good acting, but storytelling / directing / vision / artistic integrity etc fall flat for me.
I can understand 'storytelling' to an extent, but directing, vision, and artistic integrity fall flat for you? How? We visually put as much artistic crap we could in this, what with the whole story being told visually (in stark contrast to that on the dialogue-laden Redemption). I also thought the directing was about as on-point as any FXhome film ever has been, what with the proper coordination of acting, camerawork, and production elements. What else do you expect? Surely you realize, we're all only 17. I'm not Michael Bay, no matter how much you want me to be. biggrin

My usual co-cinematographer went MIA less than halfway into the race, and my main actor herniated. If you've got a better idea of what a man who 'directs' things can do given these circumstances, by all means tell me. I think we've done a better job 'directing' things in this movie than most any other movie on this website, save one or two; and it seriously, seriously makes me very angry when I see someone criticize something that I thought was clearly difficult to accomplish.

Serpent wrote:

After thinking it over and reading the comments, I'd have to agree with others about the cliche in your work.

vilhelm nielsen wrote:

It's pretty Cliché, again Evmans got it. You turned this way more dramatic, than it should be. All the slow-motion running, we've seen that already. You've done this way too often. Do something different. Something Different than, slow-motion crying and yelling. Also you use guns a lot. That's okay, but try to test yourself. Do a short without the use of guns.
This is sort of a stupid complaint to me. I think films should almost always be judged objectively, and it seems nobody is even close to doing that here. Just because we made one movie similar to this over a year ago (Cover's Story, maybe Redemption) does not mean it's something we've done often. There's a big difference here. Maybe the fact that we've made a movie that sticks with people is what makes it seem like we always do the same thing, but honestly, two similar films a year apart is not a cliche, consistent thing. You guys do know we make other films not on this website, don't you?

As for the drama: it's what we're good at, so sue us for continuing with something we know we can do well. Just because we can execute it pretty well doesn't make it an easy thing to accomplish, not at all.

Also, the comment about the use of guns: we use them as plot devices to further the story, unlike most every other filmmaker here who just uses them to make a cool gunfight.

Guns make whoever holds them immediately more powerful than anybody else. They're an effective means for someone to get what they want or end a scenario they wish to end, a la Redemption and Cover's Story. However, unlike nearly every other filmmaker on this website, we try to add power and drama to the gun, rather than just randomly add it in there for the sake of it. We're smarter than that.

Serpent wrote:

And as Aculag mentions later in this topic, and as I addressed in your hype topic: I am not a fan of the hype. It gets people watching I suppose, but it's a little ridiculous.
I made that topic because you and others had already posted 48 hour topics and I wanted to let people know what actually went on during these types of contests. I also wanted to spare myself some explaining in long-winded posts in the movie's thread, like I'm doing right now. smile

All-in-all, I'm really questioning the integrity of the criticisms this film has received. I'll be the first to admit I'm a defensive person, and mostly for the wrong reasons; but here the complaints are for trivial little things. I mean, Evman and Aculag have given this a 2. To me, that's pretty unbelievable. It helps that Evman took time to substantiate, but when the following rating was a 2 I was thoroughly, thoroughly shocked.

Just look at what we've tried to do with this movie, how well we've comparatively succeeded, and of what quality it is considering our age, time constraints, budget, effort, and resources, and maybe you'll realize it really is better than a 2.

Maybe it's because I put a load of blood, sweat, and tears into a project that I got dealt all the wrong cards on (sports genre, hernia, broken GL2, etc), or maybe it's just me being defensive as usual; but I think a 2 is a pretty low blow. Think of the videos on this website ranked at a 2, and then think of this. It blows them completely out of the water.

Come on, now.
Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 6:05am

Post 18 of 141

KA Productions

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Thanks for clearing that up for me ben, but no offense, I don't think anyone got it, and I wouldn't expect anyone to.

The dirt was infront of the actor to my memory, so that really would not have worked. It would have to have been a rock or something. But he just seemed tired, not hurt. If a bullet or rock ripped through you, you would be on the ground in pain, and your friend would realize that. But, there is only so much you can do when disaster strikes.
And just for the record, I like that style of overdramatic drama, and when things do not work out in the end, as you sit there, realizing that hope for the hero to succeed is now vanquished.


How is your friend by the way? I remember last time hearing it turned out not to be as bad as you thought, maybe not even a hernia, just a pulled muscle in that area.
Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 6:29am

Post 19 of 141

Atom

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Thanks all for commenting! Especially you, Evman. Though I don't agree with or think your thoughts substantiate your rating, I appreciate you cohesively writing it and thinking through so that I wouldn't jump to conclusions. Thank you, really.

Luckily enough for me, the usual suspects (Arktic, Evman, Aculag, Sollthar) all jumped into the conversation in one go. smile

Although I'm quite frankly upset with the reaction, as the co-writer/VO-writer/editor (basically every aspect of plot and storytelling), I'm happy people are prefaced with excitement and enthusiasm going into my movie simply because, well, Atomic Productions made it. Whether or not a positive reaction follows that is moot to me, it's a great feeling for your work/reputation tohave that effect.

You'll have to pardon Ben's long-winded post and mine following his. We're on vacation, and I couldn't leave my FXHome buddies hanging for another page, could I?

I guess, aside from what has been said, all I have to say is this:

To those who haven't seen the movie yet, don't read the reviews- just watch it. It's in my experience that once I've read something lackluster or a specific element of a movie that wasn't good, even subconsciously I look for it, and "my opinion" no longer becomes my opinion.

I'm just saying, that I know that had I not heard problems with the pacing of the current movie "Faded", I wouldnt've looked for them and may not have noticed them/been a bother to me at all.

The bandwagon effect happens to the best of us, especially when the big dogs are the first to bite on it, people want (again, even subconsciously) to agree with them, bar-none. Evidence is in Serpent's recent posting:

Serpent wrote:

After thinking it over and reading the comments, I'd have to agree with others about the cliche in your work.
Only after reading the comments was this thought. There in lies the problem with reading comments and possible spoilers. It, IMHO, and I'm a person that does it too, diminishes an audience's gut reaction to something, which worse or better, I want to know first.

I hope I've made that clear without sounding too whiney. smile

Ben tackled most of these where he shouldn't have, as the technical side (for the most part) of the production, I suspect he sees the bulk of his efforts being side-swept to semantics about plot (which, quite frankly, is mostly my doing).

I'm not happy with a lot of the comments, but I won't get defensive either. Hey, you can't please everyone! I'm happy with the movie, and I know a good majority of the people outside of FXHome who have seen it are too. To me, as a writer, I accomplished important things in storytelling that afford me the liberty not to have to explain semantics. Those are:

-A coherent beginning, middle, and end
-A protagonist and an antagonist that are evident
-Plot, something actually happening (NOT Redemption, haha smile)
-Real drama. Not melodrama. That's actually rather offensive to me, in all seriousness.

Aside from those things, I'm happy and actually rather flattered that Atomic Productions receives such immediate criticism from (what some, not myself smile, but some would consider) high-profile users on a constant basis. It's rather nice, actually, no matter how superfluously brutal. wink


Really, guys, I appreciate it. Evman, Aculag, really. I want y'all to know that. Just watch out for that comment-reading preface. It'll take out that real, immediate reaction.
Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 7:53am

Post 20 of 141

Mellifluous

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I liked this. I'm not judging this with any other film you've made, was impressed. There are some things I didn't like, like the sound during the runner's witnessing of whatever was going on, it was very faint and you couldn't hear the actors' dialogue properly. The other runner's fight scene was weak and poorly done. The film itself though is a good standard and execution is above a lot of films here. So I give it a 4.

But, others do make some good points and I have some views of my own.

It would be interesting to see a movie coming from you, unconstrained. You films so far have drama but they feel very situation driven, and you don't get a sense of character. I don't detect much of a voice either.

There's places where you could have injected a bit of character, e.g. interplay between runners, interplay between man and kid. Instead we have the voiceover, which ticks all the boxes of being thoughtful and clever about race motifs, but that doesn't convey character either; it doesn't have a voice that could make it unique from anyone else (less skilled than you) who would make the movie with the plot you've constructed. I'll give examples:

- Marathon runners. Other character was nonexistant. His character is so unimportant that you could have cut him out altogether and just had Chase happen upon assault, perpetrator shoots twice and runs off.

- What could you have done with the other runner? His friend faces death, and he's beating the perpetrator within an inch of his life. Made more out of that. Also, made him more reluctant to help initially, have him really against it and more pro winning the race. Conflict. The other runner could still be punching the perpetrator even when he's now rendered harmless, so the runner finds something out about himself during this.

- It's a pity Chase got injured as it would have been interesting to see how different it could have been. If it had been me making this, I would have Chase running towards the finishing line but then get shot in the back by his friend (who's discovered something about himself by beating up perpetrator), who wants to win the race. The friend picks up (unconscious) boy and himself runs over the finish line, earning the plaudits. What's the value of winning (coming first) versus losing (coming second)? What would you do to come first?

Making a drama about a marathon does result in obligatory cliches, but at least it'd be more interesting.

These aren't negatives as such. You guys are talented but these are some comments about where you could hone your talents in the future. At the moment, you can make a slick, polished movie but there's steps further you can go. You've made a film about an extraordinary situation, then letting that speak for itself. But you need to do more. You need to do things with the situation, introduce unpredictible things that keep the audience's interest throughout the movie. Don't pretend to be a completely developed filmmaker and big yourselves up - you're not. I'm not. Focus on your weaknesses. Your weakness at the moment is style over substance and making films that feel too simplistic.

I have understanding though that 48 hour stuff means working together, overcoming obstacles thrown at you, making compromises to satisfy everyone etc, and Marathon is pretty impressive bearing all this in mind. But yeah, style over substance!
Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 12:37pm

Post 21 of 141

vilhelm nielsen

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Alright, I was a bit harsh.

First of all, Ben. When I say it's Cliché of you, it's not because you made more than one movie about it. It's because pretty much ALL of your movies that I've seen are over-dramatic (I did like Cover's Story, though).

And what I meant with my questions, was that I think you should have worked the answers INTO the movie, so people don't have to read a lot of text to figure it out.

And I'm sorry about my little misunderstanding, I thought he was supposed to be an adult. But now that I know that he was supposed to be a kid, I have to ask:

What's up with your sadism towards children? biggrin

2/5 does seem harsh, but if you take it on a 1-10 scale it's perfect. I don't wanna give it more than 5/10, and since I can't give it 2,5 I'll have to give it 2.

Oh, and as others already said: I'd like to see some work from you, were you really took your time with it. But it seems to be a little hard for you, looking back at movies that never came out (SC, some action movie you released a clip of). To bad that your actors live so far away, that they apparently don't want to commit too much. Don't take that the wrong way, though.

Perhaps you could go back, and do some more work on the film. Release a Director's Cut.

Last edited Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 1:40pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 12:56pm

Post 22 of 141

Sollthar

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Rating: +3

...Have failed completely to judge it objectively, something I found shockingly rather ironic for Sollthar; who always stresses movies be judged this way.
In the opposite actually, there's nothing objective about judging a film, except going into some technical points and describing formal errors or assets. Everything else is purely subjective, especially everything that deals with the fact if I or anyone else judge it to be "good" or "bad". If anything, I always stress that.
Formally correct filmmaking doesn't equal "good film". Neither do formal missteps equal "bad film".

I'm not going to list formal stuff for you guys because to me, as I said, it's obvious you KNOW them and KNOW how to apply them. You're very very good technically, and that's a compliment. In fact, even though I'm reluctant with compliments in your direction, I'd say in terms of visual sense you're among the top 10 filmmakers in fxhome - if you're in need of another compliment. smile

I just said that being technically coherent doesn't automatically make a good film, as for me, this shows.

The only difference is, with our stuff we try to inject as much drama and intensity as we can
Which is exactly the problem with this film. It SHOWS. You're not even trying to focus on the little things, smaller things. There's just drama all over. Tension. Melodrama at that. smile
It's like a rollercoaster that keeps going down. You're going to go "YEEEEAAAAAAHHHHH" for the first 10 seconds or so, but if it simply keeps going fast, that'll quickly turn into "yeeaah... yeh....h....mm....". And that is, in my opinion, why this movie fails.

If you want to pull the "usual suspects" card on me, that's fine though. smile
It is an entirely subjecive standpoint, mine. So you're free to disregard everything I say as "the view of a random swiss dude", which it is, or "the usual suspect rambling on just because we are who we are", which it isn't.

This is a completely disheartening statement to me. To dismiss the orchestration of production values like camerawork, staged locations, attention to costuming, actual good acting, and clever grading and editing flippantly as a mere "effect" is grossly frustrating to me. You realize this isn't, in any sense of the word, an easy thing to do, don't you? It's incredibly, incredibly difficult, actually, and it's annoying when you and many others just offhand refer to it as a thing of "style" that we just added for the hell of it.
Don't misunderstand me, being able to produce an "effect" is the basis of storytelling, the basis of filmmaking really. If what you do has no effect on the audience, you might as well not do it at all. But always going for the effect of tension, drama etc without adding some calmer and more subtle moments, just remains as an "effect". If something appears to be mainly an effect has much to do with how often you go for full impact in comparison to how often you use your techniques in a very subtle way.
A bit like that friend everyone has who's crying all the time in comparison to the one who never crys, ever. Then suddenly sheds this one tear one day and everyone knows, this is DAMN serious, while no one even looks at the other guy anymore, who's still crying, as usual.

If it's easy to produce or not isn't even subject of the debate. It has nothing to do with anything. smile
And yes, obviously, I know it isn't easy to do. I've done it many times myself and probably failed at more occasions then I succeeded. Like every other aspiring filmmaker.

I'm also disappointed you didn't mention sound design
I didn't mention a lot of things. Your sounddesign resembles the same thing as your storytelling: It's mostly going for effect. That is done well, unquestionably, but there's not more to it.
Why don't I hear any ambience? The calm wind? The lake? The running footsteps of the shoes hitting the pavement? Something that would add to that feel the voiceover is portraying in the first 60 seconds?
But what I do hear are the cars driving by in the background when they stop running. A storytelling choice? Doesn't appear so to me. The cars have nothing to do with anything, they just happened to be there when you shot it. You basically mostly simply RIPPED the real world out of this acustically and added this fake sound world using the music, and digital soundeffects. Pretty much all the time. That also adds to this feeling of artificiality and "effect".

I also thought the directing was about as on-point as any FXhome film ever has been, what with the proper coordination of acting, camerawork, and production elements.
My usual co-cinematographer went MIA less than halfway into the race, and my main actor herniated. If you've got a better idea of what a man who 'directs' things can do given these circumstances, by all means tell me.
That's not directing. Thats production management - different thing.
Directing is the artistic choices made in how to tell a story. And as I mentioned, that I think is too much driven by overdramatic effect.
How you organize your actors, your locations, costumes, deal with injuries or missing cinematographers is not directing.

And it seriously, seriously makes me very angry when I see someone criticize something that I thought was clearly difficult to accomplish.
Probably everyone experiences that. Imagine, NightCast was by far the most difficult thing I've ever ever ever done in my life. I even needed to go see a shrink because I suffered from burnout-syndrome after working on it for 3 years (!) non stop and having people promise me help and everything while most of them didn't do nothing, practically left me alone to do work that's usually done by at least 20 to 50 people, even in a small production. And I still fought through and made it and I'll be a fricking hero for that for as long as live... BUT.... does that save it from being criticised? No. Why would it? If someone watches a film, he doesn't care about that. All he cares about is if he has an enjoyble time or not. And if not, all the blood, sweat and hard work I've put into it maybe makes a SMALL difference if he's nice enough to give me credit for it. That's how it works. Most simply say "Well, if it was too much for you, then you're an idiot for making it in the first place. Do something simpler or organize it better."

You guys do know we make other films not on this website, don't you?
Well I suspected as much, I do more work then apparent on this website too. But I haven't seen any of yours obviously. Where is it? smile

I've always been waiting for a proper atomic productions movie because I simply honestly believe you could pull off something really good if you sat down and organized your own original project and actually spent time in preproduction NOT to run into timeconstraints of having to shoot it in 24 or 48 hours, NOT to use a crew of friends that will go haywire when they can't cry or fire a gun in front of a camera or go MIA during shooting, NOT to have to do a whole postproduction in the same 48 hours you wrote and shot the whole thing etc etc.
And I frankly can't understand why you didn't do that already. What are you afraid of? Or if you HAVE done so, where can I see it?

However, unlike nearly every other filmmaker on this website, we try to add power and drama to the gun, rather than just randomly add it in there for the sake of it. We're smarter than that.
Sorry, but to me, this very film has "gun added for the sake of OVERLY MELODRAMATIC EFFECT" written all over it. Or do you actually believe you can only maka a "drama" when someone's being shot or killed?
You don't need guns for drama, you don't need to shoot at flys with nukes to have an emotional impact.

A 2. To me, that's pretty unbelievable.
People vote differently. I didn't think my demoreel was a 3, 4 people did. I didn't think our Faketrailer was a 5, 20 people did.
Believe it, that's how it goes. smile

But I do agree with you for this film as apparent from my own vote, obviously I think 2 is rather harsh, while 5 is rather optimistic. I was torn between a 3 and a 4 and finally decided to a 3 when I watched it again to see if I look at it differently the second time.

And you can play the "look at what we made within all those evil restraints we had" card only so many times. In my opinion, you've played that to it's full capacity a while ago already. I'm not going to judge any of your work according to the constraints you have, but according to the final result and how it compares to your other work or works of others in my opinion.


PS: Ben, you are aware of the fact that non-goldusers votes are shown, but don't affect the rating at all? They're filtered out. Just because you keep voting your work with 5 stars. It doesn't have any sort of effect.
Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 5:14pm

Post 23 of 141

ben3308

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Rating: -6

Uh-oh! Nothing to quote me on anymore!

Last edited Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 8:27pm; edited 2 times in total.

Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 5:34pm

Post 24 of 141

Evman

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Ok,

Atom, thank you for stating that you respected my comments, because I really did mean them to help you (and I'll admit that over the last week or so I was just kinda attacking you guys for no reason).

Ben, I can't really say the same. As soon as you said "I'm really disappointed in you guys" I pretty much stopped reading everything you said. Seriously, what a dick move that is. I spent an hour downloading this, 6 and a half minutes watching, and about 45 minutes commenting on it... that's close to 2 hours of my precious time... to view, critique, and rate YOUR film. I then proceeded to rate the film according to what I saw. And all I get is "I'm really disappointed in you..." Don't give me that arrogant "I'm better than you" bull. Next time I'll just give your movie a 0 without watching it and not comment at all.

Continuing with the arrogance, I see you just proceeded to claim that no one on fxhome comes close to delivering as much drama and emotionally moving content as you do... WTF?! Regardless of whether or not it's true (It isn't) why the hell would you say something like that? Your little ego trip is really starting to get on my nerves. YOU'RE NOT BETTER THAN EVERYONE ELSE IS. Just because everyone at the screening (the same people who thought that the miniDV tape was a DVD perhaps?) loved your movie doesn't mean that if we don't like it our opinons are void.

Now i'm really glad I gave you a 2. Consider it punishment for being an arrogant jerk.

(Again, this is addressed to Ben... Atom - as of yet - has not offended me in such ways.)
Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 5:44pm

Post 25 of 141

vilhelm nielsen

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Rating: +3

ben3308 wrote:

Nobody on FXHome- or in my neighborhood circle of filmmakers- comes even close to delivering as much drama and emotionally moving content as we do, and that's why we keep at it; it's a bit of a unique flair for us.
WHAT???

First of all, I'm with Evman, you are an arrogant ego-tripping jerk. Emotionally moving? To who? Your Mom?

I'm getting a bit pissed because you obviously don not read the comment's trough as soon as you see they are negative.

I said that: It was Cliché from what I've seen.

I'm quite sick of the whole: "I'm so awesome, I'm good at everything"-attitude that some people have. So please, stop being so defendent and start taking the comments as what they are: Suggestions to have you can do better next time.

I'm sorry to be such a "pee-pee", but right now I'm not really happy.
Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 6:07pm

Post 26 of 141

drspin98

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I love the movie for the simple fact that it is the catalyst for this incredibly entertaining thread! Like we say at our house- "Who needs cable?".
Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 6:51pm

Post 27 of 141

Fill

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ben3308 wrote:

Nobody on FXHome- or in my neighborhood circle of filmmakers- comes even close to delivering as much drama and emotionally moving content as we do, and that's why we keep at it; it's a bit of a unique flair for us.
Man, this comment really really pissed me off. If you consider me a friend, then you're basically saying that I am not capable of making a better drama than you?! Are you kidding me?

That's demeaning.

Put your money where your mouth is. When I get a decent camera, I'm coming after you.

Now I'm glad I forgot to vote. 3/5.
Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 7:39pm

Post 28 of 141

Aculag

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Rating: +2

I honsetly can't believe how full of yourself you are, Ben. I knew you guys would react in the way you did to your negative reviews, but acting like anyone who gave you a negative review is WRONG was a pretty big mistake.

I'm not going to comment on your stuff anymore. You guys need to learn how to take criticism when it's given and not try to explain it away with your self-centered bullsh*t (especially you, Ben). Being a filmmaker, especially in the stage you guys are in now, demands a certain level of humility. If you never learn anything from your mistakes, or take anything away from critcism, you're not going to improve.

Also, doing this for a deadline isn't that much of an excuse for a sloppy film. I've seen plenty of 24 hour festival entries that are far more cohesive and "emotionally moving" than this mess.

Step off your high horse and try to learn something from the comments you've received, instead of brushing them off as if you already know it all from your bloody books. Being headstrong is one thing, but being blind and ignorant to criticism as a whole is something else.

I bet you won't even read this post.
Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 7:54pm

Post 29 of 141

Atom

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Rating: +1

Kyal wrote:

ben3308 wrote:

Nobody on FXHome- or in my neighborhood circle of filmmakers- comes even close to delivering as much drama and emotionally moving content as we do, and that's why we keep at it; it's a bit of a unique flair for us.
Man, this comment really really pissed me off. If you consider me a friend, then you're basically saying that I am not capable of making a better drama than you?! Are you kidding me?

That's demeaning.

Put your money where your mouth is. When I get a decent camera, I'm coming after you.

Now I'm glad I forgot to vote. 3/5.
As much of a positive, understanding, and non-defensive attitude as I'm trying to have, this pisses me off. I'll say it, votes matter to me. I'm not trying to be arrogant, really. They just do. I'm frustrated the movie that I know is my best work isn't even in the top 3 in the Top Ten list, mostly because I've had a string of movies go through the number 1 spot, and this one, IMO my best work, isn't.

I dunno. You vote how you want, but don't be an idiot and change your vote simply based on someone's attitude that isn't even evident in the movie. I'm fine if you voted a 3, really, I am. But you said 4, and are only changing it because you don't agree with someone's comments.

To me, at least, whose efforts and movie will suffer because of something I can't control- even when I know you liked it, it's very sad to see. Perhaps even petty. The same goes for you, Evman. As much as I'm trying to keep level-headed, your comments and "punishment vote" (wtf? smile) reflect just as much of a pompous bully as Ben's may reflect an arrogant dick. Personally, and I know we're both uber-defensive, but personally I think Ben's just not properly conveying his attitude of.....well.......being upset. I am too. We didn't expect this kind of response, really. Not because we're both ridiculously arrogant, but because from experience and history of the FXHome cinema, comparatively we thought people would really like this.

Perhaps it was too big of an assumption. I guess, you know what happens when we assume....hehe.....smile

Either way, thanks for all the responses. I must ask that for those who have already commented to leave the conversation and keep this from turning into a 12 page diatribe/Ben-Atom thread, as we know it has the capacity to. smile

Not that you said it, but this isn't melodrama. I'm just saying it. It just isn't. It's a building emotion based on the growing intensity of an unexpected setting. At least, to me, that's what it was supposed to be. I won't defend it to try and change anybody's mind. Just let it be known that it is, to me, very sad to see this movie slubbed off based on someone's emotions. That's not how moviemaking works, that's not how critique works, that's not how entertainment works, at least not in my opinion.

I'm not disappointed in anyone's opinion or voting, merely flattered that people would disregard or put very little voting weight onto perfected items, simply because they know we've fine-tuned them already. That's really, truthfully, nice to hear. Really.

From here, I'll say it again. Those going into this movie:

DON'T READ OTHERS COMMENTS FIRST. It'll completely falsify your own opinion, whether you believe it or not. It does to me, I know that. smile And, frankly, I'm not looking to get 5s or be number 1 (although it would be very nice smile), just looking to hear truthful, unaffected comments from an audience's first reactions.

As for new viewers, don't judge this movie wrongly simply because those pros like Sollthar (pros, hehe wink) say something. I do that myself, and it's a terrible habit. Not saying anyone has, just trying to prevent it.

Also, villhelm: Calling someone names like "ego-tripping jerk" is never called-for, seriously. Ben has a right to say what he wants about his work on something, just as you have the right to rate and comment however you want.

Also, doing this for a deadline isn't that much of an excuse for a sloppy film. I've seen plenty of 24 hour festival entries that are far more cohesive and "emotionally moving" than this mess.
I'd like to see them, really. Not that our movie is all that great, but from the perhaps hundreds of timed films I've seen, I have my doubts there's a heap that are much more cohesive. I don't like the words "mess", either man. Don't give me that. This movie is nowhere near a "mess", I can safely say that, really.

I don't know past that what to say, only that I hope we can stop with the +1ing people for going against us, no matter how helpful the post is, in our movie thread. That's just, to me, who can't -1 anyone, adding insult to injury. Perhaps I'm wrong, if so, I'm sorry.

I just don't want my thread and my movie that I've worked hard on and kept from causing chaos in to go down the shitter because of a disagreement.

Really, man. Still, thanks all.
Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 8:03pm

Post 30 of 141

Kid

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Rating: -3

waa waa waa, thats all I hear

Edit: Its harder to see where I was coming from with this since Ben has edited away his previous post

Last edited Mon, 23rd Jul 2007, 6:18pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 8:08pm

Post 31 of 141

Atom

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Kid wrote:

waa waa waa, thats all I hear
That's why your name is "Kid", I guess. Juvenile shit like that.
Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 8:10pm

Post 32 of 141

Aculag

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Hey, Kid posted a sarcastic one-liner! I bet no one saw that coming! wink
Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 8:20pm

Post 33 of 141

Sollthar

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Rating: +2

Ben wrote:

Nobody on FXHome- or in my neighborhood circle of filmmakers- comes even close to delivering as much drama and emotionally moving content as we do, and that's why we keep at it; it's a bit of a unique flair for us.
The level of arrogance necessary to write a line like that keeps to amuse and amaze me, I have to say. biggrin
You have a remarkable ability to produce quotes that will unquestionably get you LOADS of sympathy in here...

Well, I bow to your filmmaking skills and think I'll judge your next submission, should there be one, according to the fact you're fxhome's best dramatic filmmakers. wink

atom wrote:

I think Ben's just not properly conveying his attitude of.....well.......being upset. I am too. We didn't expect this kind of response, really. Not because we're both ridiculously arrogant, but because from experience and history of the FXHome cinema, comparatively we thought people would really like this.
I understand you're being upset. I really do. You seem to be both highly emotional towards your work and trust me, I can understand that. It happens to everyone that you make something you think is great, that fills your heart with joy and other people simply don't like it much.
I don't blame you for being upset and disappointed, but what Ben conveys here - and not for the first time - is simple arrogance and insulting to every filmmaker in here who's willing to take that statement serious. You'll certainly not win any favors for lines like the above quote, I can assure you of that.

atom wrote:

Just let it be known that it is, to me, very sad to see this movie slubbed off based on someone's emotions. That's not how moviemaking works, that's not how critique works, that's not how entertainment works, at least not in my opinion.
I'd really advise you to rethink your opinion of how critique works then. Emotions are a very personal thing. And very subjective.
To you, the story you have written is emotional drama that goes for the heart. To me and others, it's utter cheesy melodrama that does nothing at all.
Neither of us is wrong, we just have different opinions, a different way to feel about things. That's all. There's nothing objective about that. Not one bit. Neither in your claim, nor in mine.

The sooner you realize that, the better for you I guess, seeing how hyperemotional you guys seem to be and how often you tend to claim your own entirely subjective viewpoints as facts. Might make you look less arrogant too.

Oh, and I'd like to point out that I entirely agree with atom on the "changing votes on personal account" argument. I don't think the vote you give should reflect your personal sympathy or lack thereof. It has little to do with the film in question.

And thanks for trying to remain calm atom. I think that should be highlighted as well.
Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 8:23pm

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Kid

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Atom wrote:

Kid wrote:

waa waa waa, thats all I hear
That's why your name is "Kid", I guess. Juvenile poo like that.
Well when you are being an arrogant ass and ignoring everyone's opinion anyway why should I bother taking the time to say something sensible?
Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 8:24pm

Post 35 of 141

ben3308

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Rating: -8

I'm sick of having to put up with all FXhome's bull.

I've made a movie to the absolute best of my ability, and yes- sorry to burst your bubble- it's considerably better than most movies on this entire website. The same goes for Cover's Story and Redemption. It's not arrogance, it's just the truth. You've gotta be blind not to see it.

I'm always willing to fairly vote on others' movies and freely give out advice, but as far as accepting bull responses I'm not open to that. Myself and others in my group want to pursue careers as filmmakers and I'm pretty certain we're some of the few on this site with the skill to do it.

What I'm saying is that, yes, we do try to be better than you. That's pretty much the point of competitive filmmaking. But that's because we try as hard as we can and we hone our talents, jesus, unlike almost every teenager on here, save a few (Kyal and Evman included, mind you). So call me an arrogant prick all you want, you don't know me and I don't know you. I'm a nice person in real life, and I never ask for credit, just that you don't take what I've done for granted; which you all have in this thread.

I went through hell and back within two days to get this movie done and to have people give me huge sh!t about how I speak about it is something I really, really, really don't deserve.

So come after me, then, Kyal. I'm done trying to please everybody, and I'm done trying to help people like you who are just going to turn on me.

Have nice lives, everyone.

Last edited Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 8:33pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 8:32pm

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Kid

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ben3308 wrote:

Myself and others in my group want to pursue careers as filmmakers and I'm pretty certain we're some of the few on this site with the skill to do it.
You are going to go no where if you can't deal professionally with people not liking your work. Sometimes you can put all the effort into your work but it can just go wrong anyway, that is life. But to blunder on and pretend that its the best thing since sliced bread when so many people are not likeing it is just foolish.

What I'm saying is that, yes, we're better than you. But that's because we try as hard as we can and we hone our talents, jesus, unlike almost every teenager on here, save a few. So call me an arrogant prick all you want, you don't know me and I don't know you.
This is the sad thing, you arn't. You are merely better than some people at some things, and you are going to lag behind the others as they learn and grow because you refuse to take critism and merely declare yourself the best.

I'm done trying to please everybody
Well this is your first lesson. You won't please everybody, stop trying to make the perfect movie and understand that you can always do better, you can always learn.
Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 8:42pm

Post 37 of 141

Hybrid-Halo

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I think the beginning and narrative were really well done, suiting shots of the runner with him over-taking people and generally training/competing were something I felt worked well. It reminded me of sporting advertisements. I know how I would have filmed and edited this differently, though I don't think they would have been options suited to a 48 hour film making competition.

My interest started to wane as soon as I saw the gun and the kid. The actions and events after this were where I felt things went downhill. Bit's like the athletes running towards an armed man really broke the sense of realism and flow of the movie for me. I would have most definitely tried to write something different into the film.

That being said, in general this is by no means a film-making blunder. There's definitely a preserved level of quality that you guys have achieved - I'm not saying that in this case it's a particularly high level. Though above home movie standard in any case.

Shame to see you're back to your old ways regarding criticism though. I'd hoped all that was over.

4/5

-Hybrid.
Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 8:42pm

Post 38 of 141

Mellifluous

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Rating: +1

Ben, don't focus on the negatives so much. Plenty of people have liked your movie, and those that haven't have explained why.

There are dozens of movies released each year that have blood, sweat and tears poured into them but get panned by some critics. THIS IS LIFE.

A filmmaking community's no different.

And it really doesn't do you any good to be defensive in a certain kind of way. If you feel like writing a "I'm better than all of you" post, count to ten.

If you sometimes feel you don't receive the plaudits you feel you deserve, maybe break down people's roles in the first post so that people can highlight aspects they liked and didn't like. I understand you did the photography... no one's dissed that overly, it's just been the story which has been a main focus.
Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 8:44pm

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Aculag

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ben3308 wrote:

I went through hell and back within two days to get this movie done and to have people give me huge sh!t about how I speak about it is something I really, really, really don't deserve.
Sorry, but just because you personally had a hard time getting it done doesn't make it a quality piece worthy of the worship you apparently expected.

I've made three short films in the last month, and two of them were failures. Not because they turned out especially poor, I've certainly made worse, but because I did things wrong, and I think it shows. I'm still going to put work into them to make the best of what I've got, but I'm definitely not going to praise them as being the best things I've ever done, when they're very far from it.

I've made about 40 short films in the last 5 years, and I'm not afraid, or too stubborn or arrogant to say that the majority of them aren't any good. I know I'm capable of doing great shorts, and I think I've made a few, but for every good one I've made, there are 10 or 15 bad ones. You act like every film you make is great, but things just don't work that way. But I'm guessing there's nothing anyone here can say that will change your mind about yourself.

Last edited Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 8:50pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 8:44pm

Post 40 of 141

er-no

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Oi oi Atom and Ben etc...

I'm exhausted after one funking heavy day on set and I've gotta be up in another five hours to do another day... I tried to watch this movie but it took 38 minutes whilst I was getting ready for tomorrow for it to download half. So not tonight!

I will watch and leave a review! Haven't even read any other comments.

Look forward to it though guys, laters.
Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 8:44pm

Post 41 of 141

vilhelm nielsen

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If you don't take critsism, and instead try to fight the critics... You're gonna end up like Uwe Boll.

True story... wink
Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 8:45pm

Post 42 of 141

Sollthar

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ben wrote:

Yes- sorry to burst your bubble- it's considerably better than most movies on this entire website. The same goes for Cover's Story and Redemption. It's not arrogance, it's just the truth.
You go to such an intelligent school and no one's tought you that your opinion, your taste, is not "truth" but simply your opinion?
In you're opinion, you're the best drama filmmaker in fxhome, you've made that obvious many times. Fine, it's your opinion. As apparent, others don't share it. There's no "truth" to be had, sorry.

Myself and others in my group want to pursue careers as filmmakers and I'm pretty certain we're some of the few on this site with the skill to do it.
I agree. Wheter you have the attitude for it I'm uncertain. Though I guess this whole "I'm the best and that is the truth, if you don't believe me you're wrong" attitude will actually get you far business wise, but will leave you pretty alone and detested in your professional career. I'm not quite sure if that's something to adore or to pity.

I'm a nice person in real life
I always thought an internet forum IS the real life. Or do you think I'm in fact a robot and I'm entirely different when you meet me face to face? smile

I just that you don't take what I've done for granted; which you all have in this thread.
Heh, this I can actually sympathize with. You know that one of the screentester wrote about NightCast, that the "film looks like shot on 35mm, but that's to be expected from you"? Amusing line isn't. Slagged off months of manual grading work and years of camera experience as something that's just "to be expected".
Welcome to reality again I guess. smile
Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 8:46pm

Post 43 of 141

ben3308

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My team has improved, and we all have what it takes to make it professionally. The whole "can't take critcism" thing is a null point to me because the 'criticisms' are all for incredibly, incredibly trivial reasons; and have therefore made the ratings ridiculous. This isn't a professional filmmaking site........not even close. Even people like Sollthar have only posted effects tests and trailers of sorts, not actual movies.

Comparatively, let me show you what I mean about the votes.

Evman voted this movie the same as Lightsaber Fight 134. So yeah.

Dancamfx vote this movie the same as some random stock footage test.

People throw the cinematography out the window for small little issues of cliche in the story, and that just slays me. We spent a long, laborious time getting all the production elements in order- something that is so, so often overlooked on this website- and those are just flippantly tossed aside for other things, and the movie gets a 2. Why even try with the filmmaking ability, then, if you people can't even appreciate the technical aspects accordingly.

Aculag wrote:

Sorry, but just because you personally had a hard time getting it done doesn't make it a quality piece worthy of the worship you apparently expected.
It does change things. I'm seventeen years old. It was a tough process. And this isn't the Academy Awards, it's a special effects website. Leniency is to be expected given the circumstances.

Sollthar wrote:

You go to such an intelligent school and no one's tought you that your opinion, your taste, is not "truth" but simply your opinion?
Look at the acting, look at the technical elements. Compare them to other FXHome films. This is truth to be had. I mean, you're basically saying I could ignore conventions of filmmaking and hold something like, say.......a Uwe Boll film higher than Schindler's List, and there'd be no difference. News flash, there is a difference. Some movies are truthfully better than others. I'm not saying mine are the end all- in any sense of the phrase- but that they are better than a lot of movies on here. A lot.

Last edited Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 8:53pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 8:53pm

Post 44 of 141

er-no

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ben3308 wrote:

My team has improved, and we all have what it takes to make it professionally.
Before I bail for the evening, and I'm just offering you some words of personal wisdom here Ben. You don't know at all what it takes to make it professionally in the film industry. If you did, and could do it. Without doubt you would already be there. Have you ever worked a stint on a feature film? Not a tv production, or an indie production, but a feature film. Because if you haven't, then you don't know and do not yet have what it takes to make it professionally. There is no such phrase.
Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 8:55pm

Post 45 of 141

ben3308

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I'm seventeen, still in school, and still learning things. And I live in Texas. It's a bit ridiculous to say I'd already be there.

"Have what it takes" in that I have the talent, technical know-how, and intelligence to function in the industry. I'm not speaking in experience.

But this is a trivial thing to argue, so I won't continue it.
Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 8:57pm

Post 46 of 141

Aculag

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ben3308 wrote:

the 'criticisms' are all for incredibly, incredibly trivial reasons
The criticisms are because the story doesn't flow well, and doesn't make THAT much sense, and feels very rushed. That's hardly a trivial reason to criticise a film.

This is why Michael Bay movies are always praised for how they look and the quality of the visuals, but criticised for having wooden acting and stories that fail to bring any real emotional response from the audience other than "Holy crap that was cool".

Your film is definitely "COOL LOOKING", as are all of your films, but as a storytelling piece, it's not great. But you hyped it, and act like it is. Hence the "disappointing" reviews.

And yes, it is technically better than a lot of the movies on this site, or on a lot of other sites, but technical aspects alone don't make a good movie. THAT'S the truth.
Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 9:02pm

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Kid

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The difference that you don't seem to comprehend is that a test is a test and is voted accordingly. If you try to make something emotional and instead miss the mark by making it cheesy rather than deep then people are going to vote according to that.

Likewise if you turn out the same style over and over. An artist who can paint landscapes and portraits is better than an artist who can only paint flowers.

If you want to be marked soley on cinematography then don't attempt to encompass other things. As it is you are voted for filmmaking as a whole. The story is an important part because even if it is a rubbish one or very simple one then it still has to make sense. Its far better to simplify than to make it confusing. If you have to explain it afterwards, then it didn't work.

Also you have to realise that the amount of work you put in makes no difference, dont expect people to take that into account. I could spend all year toiling on something and come up with the same result as someone who did it in a week. If anything it makes the person who took less work to do it better.

Next time try not to make it so difficult to help you. This happens every time. People criticise, you throw a strop, eventually you take on a small amount of the comments but in the meantime you have pissed everyone off.
Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 9:05pm

Post 48 of 141

Atom

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Kid wrote:

Atom wrote:

Kid wrote:

waa waa waa, thats all I hear
That's why your name is "Kid", I guess. Juvenile poo like that.
Well when you are being an arrogant ass and ignoring everyone's opinion anyway why should I bother taking the time to say something sensible?
You never do, and you obviously didn't read my statements at all. No matter, just try not to continue or perpetuate any more argument, Kid, and I'll leave you be.
Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 9:06pm

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Fill

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Ben, here's some advice. Get the f*ck over it. People didn't like your movie(I thought it was good) but some people didn't. Don't say that they don't know how to critique a movie just because they didn't agree with you. It's their opinion and they're damn well entitled to it.

Ben wrote:

This isn't a professional filmmaking site........not even close.


Tell us when you find one that has better software, is more helpful, and has just as good people on it.
Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 9:09pm

Post 50 of 141

Atom

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Rating: -1

Kyal wrote:

Ben, here's some advice. Get the f*ck over it. People didn't like your movie(I thought it was good) but some people didn't. Don't say that they don't know how to critique a movie just because they didn't agree with you. It's their opinion and they're damn well entitled to it.

Ben wrote:

This isn't a professional filmmaking site........not even close.


Tell us when you find one that has better software, is more helpful, and has just as good people on it.
As much as I love my buddies on FXHome and don't necessarily agree with Ben: help, software, and good people aren't what make something "professional filmmaking", man. Surely you know that.
Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 9:12pm

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Fill

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I never said they were 'professional', I said they were extremely helpful. I've tried myself to find another community to join that is as good as Fxhome and have failed.
Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 9:19pm

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Sollthar

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Look at the acting, look at the technical elements. Compare them to other FXHome films. This is truth to be had. I mean, you're basically saying I could ignore conventions of filmmaking and hold something like, say.......a Uwe Boll film higher than Schindler's List, and there'd be no difference.
That's exactly what I'm saying, yes. I could explain the concept of "construcitivism" to you now, but that would take far too long. But I recommend you look into it. smile

A short "best of" though:

There's no truth, only viewpoints. Truth doesn't exist, never has, never will. People always had a habit of trying to turn their own viewpoint into an objective truth since the dawn of existance, regarding art, science, religion, politics and whatnot. Tried to write down rules of how things HAVE to be, when in fact all they did was writing down how they thought it SHOULD be. And there have always be those who disagreed.

There are conventions of filmmaking, sure. These conventions were different 10 years ago and they will be different in 10 years. Conventions are not TRUTH, they're an agreement. That's not the same thing. No matter how many people agree.

So yes, you're welcome to name any Uwe Boll film as the best film ever made. And while people might laugh at you, as they always do, and point you to conventions and clever books written by clever people with clever opinions, this will never be truth. wink
Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 9:19pm

Post 53 of 141

Serpent

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Oh my. I thought it wouldn't go like this again, but it went worse. Like anyone else who took the time of there lives to watch your film and comment, I am going to defend my comments: (Note, everything I am saying is referring to your attitudes. I can understand why people thought the story was bad and more shallow than you made it out to be etc. I liked the film, but get over yourselves--mostly Ben.)

Ben wrote:

I made that topic because you and others had already posted 48 hour topics and I wanted to let people know what actually went on during these types of contests. I also wanted to spare myself some explaining in long-winded posts in the movie's thread, like I'm doing right now.
I can see why you would want to make a fun "behind the scenes" post. You explained what went on I suppose. Most people don't really care, but do what you want. I read it and I guess it was somewhat interesting (but unnecessarily long). As for 'sparing some explaining,' that is ridiculous. You shouldn't have to explain. Most people realize that on a time limit, you WILL have obstacles like that. But we don't care. If someone thinks the story sucks, get over it. Everyone agrees, pretty much, that you accomplished some nice shooting. But the story is what draws people to it.

This is sort of a stupid complaint to me. I think films should almost always be judged objectively, and it seems nobody is even close to doing that here. Just because we made one movie similar to this over a year ago (Cover's Story, maybe Redemption) does not mean it's something we've done often. There's a big difference here. Maybe the fact that we've made a movie that sticks with people is what makes it seem like we always do the same thing, but honestly, two similar films a year apart is not a cliche, consistent thing. You guys do know we make other films not on this website, don't you?
OK, fine. I'm wrong. The last three films I've seen from you guys are all completely different and I should have known that your stuff that I have never seen are completely different. My bad.

(Sarcasm for being a jack ass. That wasn't a stupid complaint, it was a thought out one. I think all your work that you've shown shows a pattern, besides your "fun films" like Barbie Girl, Peanut Butter Jelly, and All By Myself or whatever. Any serious work I've seen from you seems to be the same. And it isn't the style that makes it so similar, it's the story.

Ben wrote:


Look at every other movie in the recent FXHome cinema now.
Just curious: why? I am usually not interested in visual effects tests. Not everyone is on here to be a story teller or a filmmaker. Why would anyone have to consider them when judging your film?

I've made a movie to the absolute best of my ability, and yes- sorry to burst your bubble- it's considerably better than most movies on this entire website. The same goes for Cover's Story and Redemption. It's not arrogance, it's just the truth. You've gotta be blind not to see it.
The majority of films on this site have no story and are usually kids wanting to try out the software. Congratulations, you have bested them. But get over yourself. The people who gave this film a 2, based on their voting history, do not even vote on these effect fests of films. I think this stuff is better than a lot of stuff, but seriously, you need to be a man and not have to put yourself above them. I have never seen a mature user on this site post anything like that. Most of the elite are humble and come off as nice. Your attitude, as others expressed, won't get you anywhere in the film industry or life. You really need to refrain from it and I'm surprised you haven't learned from the past. In my opinion your attitude is less mature than most people on this site. You can be nice, and helpful. But you are a huge dick when it comes to defending your own work and trying to put other people down.

For the past two years I've seen people twice my age with half my obstacles make movies ten times worse than what I'm capable of; and what I'm capable of is drama.
I honestly can't believe how arrogant you are. Who cares if you think you make better work than people. They really don't matter when it comes to judging your film. There is no reason it should be brought up, it has nothing to do with this thread. No one is saying your work is inferior to all adults ever.

And I actually "lol'd" when you said you used Deja Vu and MI:3 stuff. I think Deja Vu is a pretty sucky film and MI:3 is a fun campy action film. Using them as examples of drama that has captivated you is funny to me. Maybe you saw something in them, but they are so far from the epitomy of drama that they shouldn't be mentioned. Each to his own I guess...

Atom wrote:

Only after reading the comments was this thought. There in lies the problem with reading comments and possible spoilers. It, IMHO, and I'm a person that does it too, diminishes an audience's gut reaction to something, which worse or better, I want to know first.
Erm, I read the comments after the film. I agree with most of them. If I could change my vote I'd make it a 4 just because I suppose I realized the flaws in the story. I was thinking too much about the time restraints. The only comment I read before I saw this was one of the first posters saying "the story was a little confusing." I gave you a damn 5 because I enjoyed it, stop complaining about how I went about watching it. I expected it to be confusing based on your last film, Redemption, which I thought was really bad and confusing. Same goes for any other filmmaker. I usually go into a film expecting something based on their past work. It's something most people can't help and you can't deny it's a trait of yours either. I've seen you exhibit said trait.


@Ben: I hope you read this thread in the future, hopefully the near future, and regret your attitude.

Also, your stab at Evman and Dancam's votes were really from the mind of someone who is clearly annoyed and not thinking logically. Evman's vote, for example, was over 2 years ago. He was also probably judging it as an effects test.
Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 9:20pm

Post 54 of 141

drspin98

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It is films like this that demonstrate the reason I find it very hard to "rate" Fxhome stuff. Do I rate a high quality submission like Marathon relative to say, Spiderman 3, or The Greatest Lightsaber Duel Ever?

Is this film perfect?-goodness no. Was the plot as clear and compelling as it could have been-maybe not, but hell, I've paid $8 to see movies that made less sense.

A film like this is a wonderful example of the types of work people on here with products sold here can accomplish, the quality of which I'm sure many of the people here strive for but will never obtain.
Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 9:20pm

Post 55 of 141

Evman

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If you're tired of FXHome's bull, and you think that they aren't a professional filmmaking site, go find one that is... find one that supports your little notion that you are the best people in the universe... and then be ridiculously disappointed, after receiving all that praise, you go out into the real world and utterly, utterly fail.

If you look at almost every other filmmaker on this site... look at their first movie and their latest. You'll see something stunning. THEY HAVE EVOLVED. They have changed. They have IMPROVED. I have not seen that with you guys at all. You seemed to have reached a "Plateau of Mediocrity" that you've disillusioned yourselves into being excellence. Stop trying to replicate Cover's Story (which, btw, and sorry to disappoint, wasn't the best movie ever made) and start LEARNING from what other people have to tell you instead of viciously insulting anyone that gets in your way.

The rating system is there for a reason. You seem to think that everyone has to rate your films a 5 or else... Then what's the point of the system? Seriously guys, I've said it before and I'll say it again. Grow Up. You really really pissed me off with what you said earlier and I'm not gonna try and hide that.

My vote wasn't a "punishment vote" Atom... I voted it a 2 before Ben had his little outburst... I merely said I was now even more justified than I was before about giving the vote that I did.

I honestly cannot believe that after all this time, countless threads like this... you STILL have not learned.
Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 9:22pm

Post 56 of 141

Atom

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Nevermind, you missed my point. I just got a hilarious little PM from my new best friend drspin. Oh, the joy.

And please, previous-offenders (wink) keep off from this thread from now on. I know, we know, now what you think. No one has said we won't listen to it, either, as much as Kid may want us to.

Well, aside from that, I'm very angry, but I can keep it in.
Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 9:29pm

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Kid

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Well if you listened to any of the advice given and your next movie has all those things fixed then I'll eat my hat.

My bet is that you will totally ignore them as you have done with your previous attempts and make similar mistakes again.
Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 9:32pm

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Evman

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Atom wrote:



And please, previous-offenders (wink) keep off from this thread from now on. I know, we know, now what you think. No one has said we won't listen to it, either, as much as Kid may want us to.
Oh yes, that's right, sweep the negative comments under the carpet. Pretend they don't exist. Did you ever think we might be offering something USEFUL with our posts? No, of course you didn't. You'll just shrug it off saying "oh its just those guys hating on us again, their opinions don't matter".

And who are you to say who can stay in or out of threads. It's like you're wannabe tirants, controlling who sees and comments and approves of your film to get the best resulting image.

Atom, I must say I was trying to be nicer to you (ben was the one that pissed me off initially), but you're quickly following down his path. Don't succumb to the dark side (arrogance).
Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 9:39pm

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Atom

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I'm not trying to sweep it under the carpet, I'm trying to keep the friendly, good critics and new members out of this ridiculous animosity from both side. I certainly haven't tried to keep up this crap. And anyone who has, even Ben, is immensely immature. The word "Kid" comes to mind. It's only irony that there's a member of the same name.

Evman, I still appreciate you comments. But, I don't completely agree. And it seems, when the crowd doesn't agree with us, it's because it's truth, and when we don't agree, we're being defensive.

Well, I'll just have to risk it. To me, this is my newest and best movie, has a good story that flows, great technicals, high-quality acting, and good production value. That's my opinion. No one has to agree, but don't condemn me for thinking that, seriously.

Just thought I'd say, we do evolve. Cover's Story is far less technically solid and far more awkward than Marathon. That's just it.

You want to play this game and tell me, not suggest but tell me what I do, I'll do the same.

American Idiots, American Idiots 2, Superman v. Destructor, and The Woodsman are all the same. They employ the exact same poor technicals, loose writing and mediocre acting with the same characters in very fantastic situations. I still love them all to death, make no mistake, but they are all the same. I don't feel the need to say "fresh stuff!" or "test yourselves", because it's simply not enough work to judge you by, nor are the movies poor enough to substantiate those comments.

While you may feel different, as much as I'm trying to refrain, that's just how the cookie crumbles. I'm sorry if you don't like it. I still love your movies, always have Evman, always rated them highly and left good comments, and while you don't have any obligation to do the same, I'd appreciate some restraint from being so abrasive, as I personally don't think it's warranted.

People are saying "mostly targeted at Ben", but does that mean some is targeted at me? Why, I ask. I've tried to approach this entire thread, which has spiraled out of control without me putting hardly a single thing.

Please, usual suspects, self-proclaimed (or user-proclaimed) pros, and everyone else. Let the movie speak for itself from here on. If someone has a context question or something about the movie, I'll try and substantiate/explain.

Aside from that, still, I don't know. I feel like, without a doubt, we should be number 1 in the Top Ten. That's not really my intention of putting it up here, but as it seems any true, un-prefaced opinions on this movie cannot be found, I'll settle for that feeling.

I hope people can see that I have done nothing to try and provoke this ridiculous attitude, at least tried hard not to. And.....well......I still don't know past that.

Watch the movie.
Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 9:41pm

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Kid

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Rating: -1

coincidence isn't irony

Being American you should avoid using the word unless you absolutely know what it means.

Mostly targeted at Ben because he has been so rude about it but also partly at you because you too have ignored what everyone has said.

You say the story flows but is that simply because you know what it is meant to mean? How does the fact that so many people find it confusing not worry you?
Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 9:47pm

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Sollthar

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but as it seems any true, un-prefaced opinions on this movie cannot be found, I'll settle for that feeling.
Now I have to ask, because I feel you owe me an explanation:

How is my opinion prefaced or even untrue? You slag everyone's opinion off in one go, which is what you're being critized for.

Oh and yes, I'm not sure if you're actually reading what I'm writing, but I DID see that you tried to remain calm and friendly and I - again - have to say I commend you for that and rated your post up for it.


But still, I feel you owe me an explanation. And I won't leave the thread until I get it, just so that we have an understanding. smile
Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 9:51pm

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Atom

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Kid wrote:

coincidence isn't irony

Being American you should avoid using the word unless you absolutely know what it means.
Wow, so because Kyal is black he should avoid saying "wack"? What a judgement caller you are. Jesus, Kid. I'm not going to touch a UK statement back, simply because I'm not that ridiculously pathetic.
Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 9:59pm

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Kid

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Atom wrote:

Kid wrote:

coincidence isn't irony

Being American you should avoid using the word unless you absolutely know what it means.
Wow, so because Kyal is black he should avoid saying "wack"? What a judgement caller you are. Jesus, Kid. I'm not going to touch a UK statement back, simply because I'm not that ridiculously pathetic.
This has nothing to do with rascism you fool. The American language is different from English. This is one of those instances. You used the term incorrectly.
Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 10:00pm

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SilverDragon7

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Alright I just watched this. But before I post anything I'd like to say I read only the first few posts of this thread, and from what I guess there is alot of mixed feelings in here.

But as for the film, great, great, fantastic job. I got every bit of it.

I like how the whole thing is narrated, it defintally fit this film perfectly. Great story and plot. Lots of great locations, great actors, camera work was great (only shot I didn't like was the part with the nail polish, I dunno why just not to attracting). Grading was great. But I don't see how this movie can have an overall ratingof 2, it deserves a 5.

Many people seem to say it was hard to follow, or I didn't get it. How? It was the kid talking about how he couldn't save the teenager at the fuirt stand, after he had been shot. But it was told through the eyes of the teenager as if the kid had been shot expressing the kid's feelings through the voice of the older teen. And a couple said I couldn't tell where he had been shot... Again I say how? Where he is first about to pick-up the kid it shows of clip of his left side covered in blood, with him looking panicked/scared.

Now remember that I've only read the first page of this thread.

I give this movie a 5. Abosolutly, perfectly done.
Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 10:14pm

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ben3308

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All I set out to do was make an enjoyable, intense film. If you're going to be a dick and give it a 2 because you felt you've seen it before, you get over yourself. I don't want everyone to vote it a five, jesus.

But I don't enjoy receiving a 2 for a movie that's clearly above the competition. And I absolutely loathe being called a prick, an arrogant person, or an egomaniac simply for pointing out that this movie is better than others. I've stopped trying to defend other people's feelings, lately, because it gets me nowhere. I may be rude, but I'm not arrogant.

I guess avoiding most all of the beginners mistakes (which, granted AI2 suffered from immensely) and adding a bunch of style to a movie is a new thing to condemn it for. I mean, man, a 2. That's a really GREAT rating to give a movie.

To everyone that enjoyed the film: great, I'm absolutely glad you liked it. To everyone else......sorry to disappoint. I can't say we can do much better than we have done with this one. Sorry.
Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 10:26pm

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SilverDragon7

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After reading through the rest of this thread I can come to several comments.

Although Ben did kinda make himself look like an arrogent a-hole, he brought several facts. He and his team seem to bring top notch films here to FXhome and the fact he can do it in a day or two is greater.

He does give out lots of critizism, advice, etc. so I can see why he would rather not take intense critizism as to just a light critzism, although I don't think this film needed much anyway.

I think we should just stop this huge agruement before we all dislike eachother and keep this topic (at least) about the movie.

:EDIT: Also to Ben and everyone else... I never meant for my post to should like it should automaticly be a five start top of the cinema movie, just that people shouldn't have judged it based on your actions. But I just think (in my own humble opinion) it should be a five star movie.
Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 10:34pm

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Kid

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This thread has been a marathon. smile
Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 10:35pm

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Sollthar

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I agree, people shouldn't rate films based on the behavior of the creators or their personal feelings about them as people. They should vote based on what they thought of the movie as a piece of film.

Which is what I did. It's a 3 stars movie for me, very close to being a 4 star movie, and I've explained my opinion.

Oh, and I'm still waiting for my answer why that opinion is supposedly untrue or prefaced (though I'm still not 100% sure what "prefaced" actually means) smile
Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 10:42pm

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davlin

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This was visually stunning and, considering your ages, very maturely handled.
I would love to see a film done by your group without any time constraints as I'm certain that it will be outstanding.
I have no hesitation in giving 5 stars to this movie it kept me glued to screen without any of the sometimes inevitible yawns that my stuff, and some others ,tend bring on.hehe

Well done people

Dave
Posted: Sat, 21st Jul 2007, 10:54pm

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vilhelm nielsen

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I've already explained my reason to give it a 2. It's what I think is reasonable, that's what I think it deserves.

It's different from person to person. You have to respect that.
Posted: Sun, 22nd Jul 2007, 12:57am

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Evman

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As I said before, I gave a 2 before Ben had his little hissy fit.

Ben - I've accepted that it's pointless arguing with you, but I'm just going to say this in response to this -

But I don't enjoy receiving a 2 for a movie that's clearly above the competition. And I absolutely loathe being called a prick, an arrogant person, or an egomaniac simply for pointing out that this movie is better than others.
Seriously... please... stop it. Just stop it. Despite 3 pages worth of people (some calmly, others not so calmly) informing you of how much of an arrogant ass you sound, you STILL insist that your movie is "above the competition"...

WHAT COMPETITION? Does being in the number 1 spot mean THAT much to you? On a website which you have already proclaimed to be full of bull$hit and of being "unprofessional". Get over yourself. Some didn't like it (and I honestly didn't, so I rated accordingly... instead of fulfilling my obligation or whatever Atom mentioned to your films), and others did. That's just how it works.

For now the only comfort I can take from this is that you're going know where in the film industry with this attitude.
Posted: Sun, 22nd Jul 2007, 1:30am

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hatsoff2halford

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This thread has gotten completely out of control.

Of course Ben and Atom will be somewhat upset about the ratings because, granted, many other films on this website have been rated at similar levels, and are clearly, not on the same level. That isn't an opinion, it's fact. Many poorly done films that, usually, don't have as "high" production values are rated similar. Not to mention, they probably had much more time than 48 hours to complete. So when Ben and Atom find that the movie they've been working on is being rated so poorly by most, save a few, of course they are going to be disappointed in the way people are rating.

Everyone needs to calm down or take this into PM's, this thread is about the movie, not everyones opinions on Ben and Atoms attitude. Everyone has opinions, and in Ben and Atoms opinion, and many others, they made a great film. Especially given the circumstances. When people say that the final outcome of the film shouldn't be based off of what happened during production, they are completely wrong in this case. If they had an infinite amount of time to complete this film, then yes, they shouldn't be talking about problems during production. But, they only had 48 hours, and people are forgetting this.

Ben and Atom are forced into situations where they become defensive. If people weren't taking things into consideration for the voting of this film that shouldn't be, then neither of them would have had to act this way. The fact that this film is similar to some of their others shouldn't affect the voting. They played to their strengths, which should be expected of all teams. It's a competition, of course they want to do what they do best. This doesn't mean that the next time they create something without a time limit they should make something AS similar.

All that should have mattered in the voting of this is what was presented. You should have thought of it based on if you had never seen any other film from them. Of course, that would make this seem much more original because you've seen similar grading and styles of cinematography, but it would give you a clearer view of the film itself, and not the people who made it.

This whole thread has become another rag on Ben and Atom and make them get defensive. Obviously, their attitudes aren't that great, but given the circumstances, it isnt too completely out of control.

I'll post my review later. And please, don't take this post as a post defending Ben and Atoms situation, I completely agree with what numerous other people have been saying. It seems like certain people are TRYING to cause some sort of completely unnecessary argument. It's kind of sad to see threads like this come up. If anyone has a problem with someone else it should be taken up through private messaging, not clogging up this forum with attacks on certain people. This thread is a review of the film, not Ben and Atoms characters.
Posted: Sun, 22nd Jul 2007, 2:21am

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Bryce007

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This thread was more entertaining then the actual film.

Really though, If everyone that MADE the film liked it, then great. But I don't think everyone should be required to give the film a 5 if they didn't like it.


On the "Cliche" note....I unfortunately agree somewhat. All the anguish and pained expressions... I just don't really like it all that much. And the most technically well made films that Atomic has come up with (Cover story, Splinter cell, Redemption) all featured this element.

And it's just not "Entertaining". It's emotionally flat.


There really wasn't a "Money shot" or cool moment where I was like "Sweet!".


So, to sum it up: This film was technically more impressive then my film featuring anguish "Imminent". It also featured better acting and great sound.

Which means I should like it alot. However, I just wasn't feelin' this one. Not really sure why, but it just didn't do it for me...
Posted: Sun, 22nd Jul 2007, 3:03am

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ben3308

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Bryce007 wrote:

Really though, If everyone that MADE the film liked it, then great. But I don't think everyone should be required to give the film a 5 if they didn't like it.
Well, yeah, of course not.

Personally, I only give 5's to movies on here I like; like AI2 or Lucky Strike. 4's sometimes to ones I don't like, but appreciate, and 3's to anything else that has most bases covered on the technicals. I only give 2's to things I find poorly done, (and I considered this the case with most peoples' rating scales) and that's why all the bad ratings on Marathon are a bit unnerving.

I'm not asking that anybody like this movie. I just want it to be rated fairly and objectively, which is the whole problem I have here. hatsoff2halford deserves a literal 'hats off', because he has is exactly right.

And you're right on about the lack of a 'money shot' (except I think the wide shot with the luminance keyframe of Brian holding Reese comes close). It's weird, once we finished I was upset about not having one, and I compared it, in a sense, to 'Imminent', in that while I found the whole movie cool there was no clear shot that looked completely awesome to me.

If you'll remember, you asked me to tell you my favorite shots in that movie way-back-when, and I couldn't; mainly because I enjoyed the movie as a whole.

If anything, this thread has taught me that on here talent or devoted skill counts for nothing if you're not willing to take some crap about it. Which is pretty petty in my book, but whatever. Thanks God everyone has 'informed' me I'm an ass. I had no idea I was so arrogant. Really, thanks!
Posted: Sun, 22nd Jul 2007, 3:20am

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Atom

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Evman, Aculag, Kid, seriously: What indication, AT ALL, have I given that I'm not learning or listening to what you're saying? Seriously. Just as you like to say it's typical of me/us not to listen, I think it's typical for you to say "you never listen". How exactly do you know this? In all honesty, mates.

That's just ridiculous. Somehow this always becomes the stupidly-strongest argument against me, and I just don't understand it. I'm listening you idiots, I'm listening.

Sollthar wrote:

Oh, and I'm still waiting for my answer why that opinion is supposedly untrue or prefaced (though I'm still not 100% sure what "prefaced" actually means) smile
Like I said before, we're on vacation and it's hard for me to get to a computer. I've been checking up on this thread via my phone. My comment: I think you're misunderstanding it entirely, and to save any further miscommunication, let me rephrase:

When you, Sollthar, make such harsh (or not harsh, whatever you want to call them) judgements about some single aspect of a movie, and that is highlighted several times throughout the thread, regardless of if it would actually bother someone watching the movie- after reading your comments, they begin to take notice to these things.

This isn't to say that I'm trying to fool an audience from noticing my faults, merely saying that when someone reads about all the problems before they watch it, as that seems to be the core topic of conversation, they begin (either consciously or subconsciously) to check for these things, taking away from the overall experience, lowering critique, and inevitably rating.

Serpent's comments highlight what I mean. He said something to the extent of "reading the story-problem comments, I went into this thinking it would be an incoherent blob." Now, I'm just saying, that when prefaced with this notion, it detracts from someone's own, actual experience of watching the movie.

If I know where all the faults and places the boom went into the shot in Spiderman, as I did (looked up for some stupid reason) before I saw the movie, I begin to look for them and it takes away from what probably would have been a rather mind-blowing experience.

I'm just saying. Don't read before you watch. I hope you understand me.

Aside from that, thanks all for more comments. As always, we appreciate them. We do listen to them, and we do use them. If we didn't read them, would we really be responding so vividly? smile
Posted: Sun, 22nd Jul 2007, 3:32am

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Klausky

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I felt a four star rating for this movie was suitable based upon the stature of the other movies on this site. I watched Faded while I endured Marathon's marathon download time and came to the conclusion that Marathon, while trumping Faded's sense of professionalism, failed to be the better movie because its story was lacking.

Ben, I applaud your grading and handheld work, but it didn't really impress me this time considering the same exact style has been exhibited in your past work. I was hoping to see more than a flashy style--possibly a developed story with stronger characters. The core to this movie was missing, and for this reason there have been negative reviews. I hoped for something that didn't rely on disconnected narration like your past two movies. I agree with you on the fact that your movie outdid the majority of other movies on this website, and for this, I rated accordingly. I respect your ability to transcend basic teenage moviemaking, and that's what truly won me over. My advice for you would be to stop bitching on this thread and use that time to prepare for your next movie. Have the style balance the substance, and work on your own time. I'm tired of seeing you guys excusing instances of sloppiness because of time constraints.

Keep up the solid work.
Posted: Sun, 22nd Jul 2007, 3:59am

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Atom

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Thanks, Klausky. I'll try and remember that, no matter how much Kid will try and make you think I won't. It seems as if he knows me better than......well.......I do. wink

Thanks, man.
Posted: Sun, 22nd Jul 2007, 4:04am

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SilverDragon7

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Many people have now said that it has taking a long-ass time to download, where it took me 5 minutes tops. Maybe it's just your internets?
Posted: Sun, 22nd Jul 2007, 4:19am

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Bryce007

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Oh, forgot to mention:

This IS definitely better then your previous films overall, and is easily the top FX-less technical specimen on the site.

Good job.



(Didn't want to make it seem like it wasn't good or something)
Posted: Sun, 22nd Jul 2007, 4:21am

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Atom

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We've got a buggy server, I've heard. But seriously, what do you want me to do? I've talked to the people at glob@t, and......I dunno. Should I simply change servers?

It's always been fairly fast on my ends, from different connections and computers. Maybe it's just my region, though. Sorry for the download time, either way. I appreciate you all taking the time to watch and spending upwards of 45 minutes to download. That's, like I said, very flattering.

Oh, and thanks, Bryce. I took your work for inspiration on some of the frenetic editing and sound-design of the movie. Hope you don't mind. smile

Thank god we're finally beating "Magic Boy"! For a moment there, it was close! smile
Posted: Sun, 22nd Jul 2007, 5:26am

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ben3308

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I'm sorry if I've sounded arrogant in this thread, everyone. Truly sorry.

And it's not for the sake of anyone else, I'm sorry for my sake. This thread has proven to me that I can't state what I think frankly without being hung out to dry as an incoherent, stubborn, arrogant person. And I'm not that person, by all means trust me on this one.

It's just very, very, very, very disheartening to try an improve upon all my old faults in filmmaking, only to have them slubbed off with sweeping generalizations that say I've made 'no progress'. Below is a great example of misinformed, assuming ignorance at its best.


Aculag wrote:

Step off your high horse and try to learn something from the comments you've received, instead of brushing them off as if you already know it all from your bloody books. Being headstrong is one thing, but being blind and ignorant to criticism as a whole is something else.

I bet you won't even read this post.


That last line was cute, really.

Serpent said in Redemption that he'd liked to have seen better sound effects. For 'Marathon' I downloaded about a thousand of them, taking that advice into consideration and handing them to my brother for use in the editing. Many people, like Arktic, didn't like the narration trying to string the scenes together in Cover's Story, so I tried to tell the story visually. It's pretty obvious, too: man runs, finds kid, takes him desperately away from a bad scenario looking for help. It's easy enough to see just from what's presented on the screen. It's all there. It's also a situation that has a clear beginning, middle, and end; a problem many had with Redemption.

So most everyone comes along, and their most clear criticism is that we 'haven't improved' or 'haven't listened' that comes off as widely, incoherently ignorant. Big time. Most especially when this movie, of everything we've done, is where we tried to take previous criticisms to heart.

Something I've also failed to mention- mainly because I feared fanboyish backlash, something I'm more than willing to brave now- is that most of the negative comments are completely, utterly tongue-in-cheek. Sollthar, of all people, discounts the movie because of it being stylistically cliche? This coming from someone who puts explosions, gunfights, or greenscreening in EVERY SINGLE ONE of his movies? Give me a break.

Personally, I like all those elements, and am glad to see them in his stuff; but if that's how he makes his stuff he's in no position to condemn me doing the same thing. Not at all.

It's also very hilarious to recollect another person's movie thread from a few days ago, where he said the following, and then see him say the opposite about my movie.

Sollthar wrote:

This was very cool. I liked this, because it had something very few films in the cinema have: style. I hope the rest of the film will show the same amount of style and artistic integrity as this, then I can see a personal favorite coming.
Oh, how I loathe hypocrisy. I honestly laughed my ass off at this one for a good ten minutes. Those who have tried to judge my character in this thread, as well, I've been laughing at a great deal. You're in no position to do anything like that, at all.

So, yes, I formally apologize to anybody's integrity I may have disrupted with my alleged arrogance. I really, truly am sorry for upsetting.

What I was really trying to say- that I got completely black-balled for, and I can't say it's not entirely my own fault- can basically be surmised from hatsoff2halford's post.

We all have goals when making films. Aculag's and Evman's are, from what I've gathered, to make people laugh. FCRabbath's are to entertain. Mine is to be as professional and as cool-looking as possible while transcending teenage filmmaking, as Klausky put it. So when I've sounded arrogant, I haven't been full of myself, as many have so ignorantly presumed: I've just tried to state the aforementioned as my intention.


Postscript:

Oh yes, and most everyone on this thread, save myself and my brother, have failed to realize who exactly the main runner is. Read the credits, it's more or less intentional.
Hint: he's Jake Cover. Problems with his brother are happening all over again. It's an 'easter egg' of sorts for people who have seen our other stuff.

Last edited Sun, 22nd Jul 2007, 5:58am; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Sun, 22nd Jul 2007, 5:56am

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SilverDragon7

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ben3308 wrote:

Postscript:

Oh yes, and most everyone on this thread, save myself and my brother, have failed to realize who exactly the main runner is. Read the credits, it's more or less intentional.
Hint: he's Jake Cover. Problems with his brother are happening all over again. It's an 'easter egg' of sorts for people who have seen our other stuff.
Oh yeah, I noticed this, and it helped put alot of the movie together for me.

:EDIT: Now after watching the film again I came to the conclusion that there was never a marthon, that Cover was just taking a run (with his brother?) and was shot. The story was told by Cover's brother through Cover and was told as if he were the victim.

:EDIT II: 900th posts. ownage.
Posted: Sun, 22nd Jul 2007, 6:29am

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Atom

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SilverDragon7 wrote:

Now after watching the film again I came to the conclusion that there was never a marthon, that Cover was just taking a run (with his brother?) and was shot. The story was told by Cover's brother through Cover and was told as if he were the victim.

:EDIT II: 900th posts. ownage.
Uh.....sure........yes. wink
Posted: Sun, 22nd Jul 2007, 7:11am

Post 84 of 141

ssj john

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Ok, so I left my short review in the progress thread. But here is a little bit lengthier one. Plus some suggestions. Hmmm?

OH! and sorry if I repeat stuff people have already said but I really don't feel like reading threw all 6 billion pages.

So as I said before I liked it overall. It definately was a good piece of work. Flawless? No of course not. ( I think sometimes Fxhomers expect this, but its impossible) I mean there is always going to be an aspect of a movie that doesnt fit or could have been done better. . Its a fact of life. So I'm not judging this movie based on that.

I like the editing blah blah blah yeah, you know all the good stuff. I like the voice over, it was done very well. You guys are good at drama. I can't really say anything else about this film without repeating what I've already read in the first page of this review.

So now I want to make some suggestions to you guys. One thing I see in all your work is everything is so EPIC! Which is ok, but I know you guys can do EPIC, I want to see if you can do something else. I understand that this was a competition and you guys didn't want to dive head first into something you don't think you know anything about IE: Comedy. So I have sympathy for you.

Cinematography...Cinematography is a big one for me. Because I do cinematography too, its always the first thing I notice in a movie. It's what can make or break the movie for me. You guys have good cinematography. But good cinematographers can adapt. Now whether you guys can adapt or not. I don't know. Because you always do the same types of movies that require or suit the same type of cinematography. Change it up, you can still do drama without having to do a heart-racing action. You can also do heart-racing action without the "shacky" bourne supremacy camera technique. Don't just challenge yourself physically by getting a film done in 48 hours, but challenge yourself artistically. Take the comedy card and see if you can pull it off.

Your passion for film-making reminds me alot of me and aaron. You guys really see what films are for. Entertainment...at least that's my feelings. A film doesnt have to be revolutionary in its visual or special effects, it just needs to entertain. And you guys do that, and your getting better at it.

Anyways good work Atomic.

John
-initial-productions-
Posted: Sun, 22nd Jul 2007, 7:57am

Post 85 of 141

FreshMentos

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I thought that this was good but not your greatest work. It looked very professional but what it lacked was a really gripping story, I would even say that it dragged on. The problem that I had with the plot was that I had a hard time understanding what was going on. But then again, it's quite hard to come up with a good story involving sports in just a few hours. And for what guys came up with, it was sure better than the generic "nerd rises up to become a football champ" story. I decided to give this a 3/5.

I'm glad that you guys had a great time making this. Now give yourselves as much time as you need for your next project, and you got yourselves a awesome movie.
Posted: Sun, 22nd Jul 2007, 8:11am

Post 86 of 141

Phileep

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absolutly brilliant, i loved the cinematography, you guys never fail to amaze me, another film you have made so proffesionally, in such a small amount of time, the one thing i think let it down, was the gun shots, and the oversized bullet hits in the ground, other that that it was brilliant, acting was really good, the camera work, was a bit shaky, but suited the story quite well, and the grading was just amazing, its really good to see such a proffesional film in the FXhome Cinema.
Good Job, 5 Stars!
Posted: Sun, 22nd Jul 2007, 8:20am

Post 87 of 141

sfbmovieco

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“Nobody can be so amusingly arrogant as a young man who has just discovered an old idea and thinks it is his own.”
Posted: Sun, 22nd Jul 2007, 9:00am

Post 88 of 141

Serpent

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Hatsoff2harrold: I think we have a right to publicly defend our thought out comments. The attitude expressed in this thread makes it 6 pages long. That is the reason it goes off topic.

Ben/Atom: My rating scale is this:

5/5 if I loved the film and enjoyed/entertained by it. Often technicals can make me love/hate a film, so if it was shot with handicam from one tripod angle with pixellation galore but with an absolutely rivetting story, I will still probably not give it a 5 simply because I find stuff like this painful to look at.

4/5 if I liked it for any reason and thought it was a bit above "oh, that was good."

3/5 if I thought it was pretty good.

2/5 if I didn't like it that much but thought there was potential or effort and story telling/filmmaking skills were exhibitted.

1/5 if I didn't like it at all really, but something made it merit something above a 0/5.

0/5 if it absolutely sucked in every possible way and I felt as if it was a waste of my time and space on the internet with scarce effort put into it and very little potential displayed.

So I have a bit of a different scale than you do. Maybe Evman etc. has a similar scale and judged it maybe because they didn't enjoy it despite the clearly awesome technicals. I think technicals, as they've been named lately, are somewhat important. But as long as the way the film was cut doesn't turn me away from the screen, the main thing I focus on is whether or not I enjoyed it.

Atom wrote:

Serpent's comments highlight what I mean. He said something to the extent of "reading the story-problem comments, I went into this thinking it would be an incoherent blob." Now, I'm just saying, that when prefaced with this notion, it detracts from someone's own, actual experience of watching the movie.
I think it is clear that you must have completely ignored my previous reply. You could have at least read the Quote="Atom" part. So I'll say it again:

The reason I went into this thinking it would be confusing is BECAUSE OF REDEMPTION. On the cinema page I saw a comment, by I believe Sollthar, that said something along the lines of "this was a little confusing." Note I just said "something along the lines of." PLEASE, refrain from quoting me with things I did not say. I thought this would be a narrative (it was) that made little sense to me logically. This is what I expected because I hated Redemption. Now, you keep bringing my post up as an example:

I LIKED THE GOD DAMN MOVIE. I don't see how my quote was an example of what you are exchanging with Sollthar because I expected it to be confusing but it ended up being good. And this was only because I glanced at a small section of the thread on the cinema page and saw the same qualities in Redemption. Again: this is something every human does. Example:

I hate Ron Howard films. Hate them. I think they are a bunch of cheese and aren't nearly as deep as they seem. I was forced to watch Cinderella Man in AP Euro and I liked it. I was surprised as I expected to hate it. Wait wait, what's that? I made an assumption based on previous observations? NO WAI

And yes, switch hosts. Your server tends to be slow for me and if I hadn't appreciated your past work, I might cancel the downloads. Fast speeds allow people fast access to your work. If you are going to have a site as a portfolio for anyone, speed is of the essence.

Ben: I personally think your guys' technicals have improved. Though they spiked more drastically from Friendship to Cover's Story/Splinter Cell (though I was really looking forward to Friendship which seemed to have a great plot from what I could tell). That's probably because it was easier to improve from that level to this one. The thing you guys need to improve, in my opinion, is writing. It seemed to be a turn off for others in this film and Redemption. I think you guys did a great job with sound (though I think Sollthar made a brilliant and useful point about taking the real world from it, a comment I plan to +1 because I will consider it in my own work in the future...) Anyways, I appreciate the shout out and the fact that you took my criticism into thought and put it to use. But like someone else said, sit through preproduction and write a plot with character development etc. and make a proper film in a month. I've said it before: I'd like to see something beyond the realm of 24/48 hour competitions.


By the way, you ARE being arrogant Ben. You are stating yourself as superior to others even if it may be true (which it never can be as such thing is so subjective.) That is arrogance! You are being the complete opposite of humble. You are simply putting yourself above everyone and you are denying said arrogance! I don't care if you are better than every waking human on this planet, you should never do that. It is rude, but it's also arrogant. I'll say it again but with examples and in greater detail:

So when I've sounded arrogant, I haven't been full of myself, as many have so ignorantly presumed: I've just tried to state the aforementioned as my intention.
I've made a movie to the absolute best of my ability, and yes- sorry to burst your bubble- it's considerably better than most movies on this entire website. The same goes for Cover's Story and Redemption. It's not arrogance, it's just the truth. You've gotta be blind not to see it.
From Dictionary.com:

ar - ro - gant
-Adjective: Marked by or arising from a feeling or assumption of one's superiority toward others


I personally think there is a grand display of arrogance in this thread. Who's to say your work is, fact, superior? If we're judging on story, many in this thread would disagree. Also, nowhere in the definition does it say "unless one is indeed: superior." So even if you were a filmmaking, story telling, absolute genius prodigy and you described yourself as being superior, you would still indeed be arrogant.

Also: "So when I've sounded arrogant, I haven't been full of myself, as many have so ignorantly presumed:"

Ignorantly presumed? Your superiorety is not fact as it is so subjective. But I'd have to say if anything is fact, it would be your arrogance. I don't think that's ignorance. If it is, I and many other adult and well respected users are completely missing everything you've said. Maybe you are kidding, or being sarcastic because some of the things you've said are so outright? I think not, but excuse me for my ignorance if I am.

Last edited Sun, 22nd Jul 2007, 9:36am; edited 4 times in total.

Posted: Sun, 22nd Jul 2007, 9:08am

Post 89 of 141

Sollthar

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Thanks atom for clarifying.

Ben wrote:

Sollthar, of all people, discounts the movie because of it being stylistically cliche?
You're twisting my words or throwing different viewpoints together. I've never said it was stylistically cliche and that was the problem. Neither did I say you didn't improve.
The whole "throw everyone in the same bag" thing doesn't work so well, as we all have slightly different standing points.

I said you've applied the samle style to it as you did to the other movies I've seen from you. A style which I've commended you for several times, even said I think you're among the top 10 visual filmmakers on fxhome which I still stand by - but somehow, you chose to not take that in as a pretty huge compliment, but focus on the other things I said.
But I guess since you've just discredited me as a filmmaker and I'm in no position to tell you this, my compliment is as worthless as my critisism.

I said I didn't like what this film told and how it told that. And apart from it's visual feats, I'm just not impressed by it enough to give it a 4. Very closely though. I'd say the current rating of 3,47 is JUST about what I'd give it if I could vote more exact.


The difference between your film and the one I gave the comment to which you quoted and thought was so amusing is this: Your film is a narrative shortfilm, the other is a concept trailer. A concept trailer, in my book, doesn't fail because it tells no story, or a weak story. All it does, is convey a concept. And I'll base my judgement on that.
Was "Marathon" a camera / lighting showreel, I'd probably give it 5 stars. It isn't though, it's a shortfilm. A "Drama". And as that, it doesn't work for me for the reasons stated, even though all the technicalities are solid, which I've said.

Because unlike you or Serpents example, I don't have one rating scale for everything in the cinema. I use different rating systems depending on what it is I'm looking at and even who made it - just like my films are subject to a harsher rating system by many people. (Another reason why I think fxhome cinema votes are basically worthless apart from being good fun, but let's not get into that)

Mind you, in that quoted comment of mine, I did say that I hoped that the rest of the film will have the SAME artistic integrity. The "rest" was meant to be all the other aspect of production, including it's story...

And with a narrative thing, a very important part is if all the technical play comes together as a piece of film that WORKS for me as an audience. And this didn't.

Slag my comment off, laugh about me, go cry, go on a defense tirade, continue to discredit my own work to objectively make everything I say worthless... I keep believing in the fact that you two have talent and I'll continue to post my opinion on this and further work of yours and others. You'll have to live with that, because in one aspect you and me are not unlike each other. I never back off just because someone disagrees with me, even if he puts his disagreement so verbally and potentially insulting. wink

I'm glad to see my comments give you 10 minutes of laughter. I'm here every friday. whistle
Posted: Sun, 22nd Jul 2007, 1:36pm

Post 90 of 141

Kid

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hatsoff2halford wrote:

This whole thread has become another rag on Ben and Atom and make them get defensive. Obviously, their attitudes aren't that great, but given the circumstances, it isnt too completely out of control.
The thing is that that isn't how it starts. People gave honest constructive critism and were answered with rudeness and arrogance. I find that unacceptable.

If Ben and Atom just want people to tell them how great they are then they should go somewhere else. If they want honest opinion of their peers then they need to learn to be more humble.

No one sets out to start an argument with them, they just have a bad attitude. This is why it is always their threads that turn into these arguments. Also assuming this is some sort of vendetta or dislike against them is crazy because the people involved are some of the most respected people on the forum.

Solthar for instance has a film out on DVD which is by far the most professional work of anyone on the forum that I have seen and yet they are disrespecting his opinion as much as anyone else.
Posted: Sun, 22nd Jul 2007, 4:16pm

Post 91 of 141

B3N

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Righto I'm going to leave a comment on the film then run away and never return to this thread after reading minutes of replies biggrin.

The movie was great.
The start had a nice feel to it but a bit too shaky.
The grading through the whole film was nice and well balanced.
The story was...well mediocore to me.
The music was nice, enjoyed listening to that.
The acting was great.
The Foley work was alright.
The camerawork...great, and the shakyness went well with scenes.
The story was ok but a bit...rushed and felt like you were thinking "Righto a few hours left, we need to add guns in now"

Previous comments pretty much sum up more than I can be bothered to type smile. Nevertheless I'm giving this a........3. Nice job for something which was done in 48 hours, hope to see something new from you guys.

Also may I just say why were you saying in previous posts about watching it again to understand it? Just curious because if you had got it into the competition the audience would only had watched it once and you wouldn't be able to say "let's watch it again so you understand it"

wink
B3N
Posted: Sun, 22nd Jul 2007, 5:02pm

Post 92 of 141

petet2

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Rating: +4

Ok I've come to the party pretty late and missed the fight. Now everyone's sitting on different sides of the room not talking, just glaring at each other.

I read half the posts, then watched the movie, then read the other half of the posts. (For the record it didn't take long for me to download and I have 4Mb cable broadband). As I read the posts I kept finding things I wanted to quote but then decided not to quote anything because it would have taken too long. Hopefully I can remember all the salient points I want to make. As the movie is an Atomic production then my comments are to that group and not (unless specifically stated) aimed at any one individual.

Firstly I think the FX Home movie rating system is limiting which hasn't helped the debate. If I was rating the movie on cinematography then it would get five. Sound probably another 5. But for story I would give a lower mark, maybe 2 - I didn't think it was particularly original or gripping. Given that fact it would be false if I gave the movie 5 overall. If it was a music video I could give it a 5 but it's not. It's a drama short and as that it has to grip me or move me or surprise me with it's plot and it doesn't. If I have to give a single number then probably I would give it a 4 allowing for roundings.

To expand on my criticisms of the script... There were a few unexplained issues - why did the second runner (who beat up the shooter) not go back to help his friend? The fight happened in daylight yet by nightfall the kid and the shot runner were still lying on the street. Why would the shooter stop to carefully put down his jacket and gun right at the crime scene? If he's going to be so helpful to the CSI why not leave a forwarding address. With a short you have to engage the emotions of the audience or give them a twist to make them go wow. Brevity of running time isn't an excuse for not doing this. There is a Nokia sponsored competition where the movies have a maximum running time of 15 seconds and a few years back there was a film called Han Man which was quite simply one of the most pefectly scripted and paced films I've ever seen with a very powerful twist that haunted me for days afterwards (just spent half an hour trying to track it down on the net but failed, sorry).

I have only seen a few of your movies on here and technically they are excellent. You do a great job of getting a good look out of dv footage. But I think that sometimes you fall into the trap that many amateurs on this site do which is to say "look how much I made my footage look like 35mm film". Personally I am less bothered about image quality and more about originality, direction, story. If you ever get to make a professional movie you get to use professional equipment so image quality is not really something to get points for.

You say that you want to be film makers but what do you mean by that? I think that your work so far shows that you could be a great cinematography team working on a Michael Bay movie or similar. Lots of use of high shutter speeds, telephoto lenses and hand held cameras. You've got that look off pat. However if you want to direct then I think you need to work on your versatility.

Somewhere way above someone made a comment about an artist who can paint only portraits vs someone who paints landscapes and portraits. Steven Spielberg made Saving Private Ryan with it's harsh grading and high shutter speed but he also made ET, Close Encounters, Jaws and AI. All have very different looks because he was trying to achieve a different atmosphere each time.

I would love to see some more work from Atomic and something different. Maybe you should try to deliberately pick some scripts that stretch you in different ways? I write horror stories but to develop my writing skills I force myself to enter competitions which means I have to write in other genres. The competitions like the 24/48 hour races are a great opportunities for you to try something similar but the last couple of examples I have seen seem to indicate that Atomic is perhaps guilty of working the competition theme, whatever it may be, back to your comfort zone in terms of style and plot.

Your grading skills are great when achieving the look you have for this movie but you shouldn't be saying "I grade this so it looks like an Atomic film" you should be saying what does the grading need to be for this movie or this shot? Not every type of story looks best shot with a long telephoto lens. I remember posts when Ben said he preferred hand held shots or that a crane was the one piece of equipment he would buy. To me both are part of a film makers arsenal that are used when they are needed. You should read your script and think about what suits the story, not say all my films are going to be shot hand held. It's not always the best option. Sometimes a rock solid tripod mounted slow zoom lingering single shot can be infinitely more powerful.

I know it's not easy to coordinate friends and time and studying with making movies but you really should try to work on a movie at your own pace. Get a good script and take some time over it. You are often guilty of prefacing posting your movies with details of how rushed it was, how you knocked it up in an afternoon, etc. There's nothing wrong with believing you are the best film makers here but you have to convince us of that, we won't just believe it because you say so smile

Rightly or wrongly some people will see that when you say this was made in a rush or we had x/y/z problems you are getting in an excuse to counter any criticism before it arrives, using the time constraints or other issues to hide limitations in your ability. The easiest way to counter those critics is to make something at your own pace and show us how good you really are.

No matter how long you have or how big your budget some things will never go to plan and there will always be problems. But I would like to see a film from you guys where you post and say we took our time, most things worked out and maybe then you will knock everyone's socks off.

And finally a note to Ben - I'm an old guy (41) who works with a number of people not much older than you and if I can give you one piece of advice it would just be to take a step back every now and then and just chill a little. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion on anything and you can't go through life taking every criticism so personally. You don't help yourself at times because your posts sometimes do come across as being arrogant. Maybe in a few months read back over some of them when you've calmed down and see what you think. You don't have to agree with me (see above re everyone is entitled to their own opinion) but a lot of people reading your posts seem to share that opinion so maybe there is something in it? I don't know you personally so I am not saying you are arrogant, maybe it's the way you come across when you write your thoughts down. I just think you could do yourself some favours by taking a little time and giving a more measured, considered response to criticism in the future.
Posted: Sun, 22nd Jul 2007, 5:27pm

Post 93 of 141

ben3308

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Thanks so much for the comments, everyone, particularly petet2.

One quick thing I want to say about camerawork and grading on this one: if you've seen Redemption yet haven't seen Cover's Story, I think you'll be noticing some big differences.

All of Redemption was done on a Bogen 501HDV fluid head tripod. All of it. Even the dolly stuff. And the grading had a +5 contrast boost, at most. I dunno if any happened to notice this, haha, but we tried to break that "atomic look" a bit, lol.

In Marathon, we really wanted that "nike commercial look" what with the high contrast of daybreak and the crunching of the ground. Also, my friend Brian, who we all wanted a great performance out of, insisted we do the whole thing handheld. The guy actually bugged out a little when I set up my fluid head on the levee for the first scene we filmed. The grading was put up there stylistically to look cool and to actually resolve two problems:

-The weird motion of fast-moving HDV
-To match the softer look of the XH-A1

The higher contrast actually crunched the blacks on the image so harshly that most apparent 'ghosting' in the HDV footage was gone. This was good news when shooting during the 48, I tell you that! biggrin

But all-in-all, I want to really thank everyone for downloading, commenting, watching, and reviewing the film; especially amidst all this bickering. Thanks a bunch!

Postscript:

Serpent wrote:

So even if you were a filmmaking, story telling, absolute genius prodigy and you described yourself as being superior, you would still indeed be arrogant.
I apologize, Serpent, in not clarifying as to what I meant by 'ignorance'. It's comments like the aforementioned which have made me accuse ignorance, for I hate when people draw assumptions like you just did on me.

I'm sorry for what I've tried to say in this thread, because I have miscommunicated what I have intended and my words have therefore become misconstrued. You can't just say something like "no, you don't sound arrogant, you are arrogant!" because that's not true. You've taken bits of posts I haven't been able to properly word out and have turned them immensely against me, and, in truth it's my own fault.

I deeply apologize to you, man. I did not meant to insult yours or anyone else's credit as a filmmaker with what I said.
Posted: Sun, 22nd Jul 2007, 5:43pm

Post 94 of 141

Atom

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Kid wrote:

hatsoff2halford wrote:

This whole thread has become another rag on Ben and Atom and make them get defensive. Obviously, their attitudes aren't that great, but given the circumstances, it isnt too completely out of control.
The thing is that that isn't how it starts. People gave honest constructive critism and were answered with rudeness and arrogance. I find that unacceptable.
I'm sorry, Kid, but I will not tolerate someone defaming my character simply whenever someone else is defending it. You really need to read, my friend, and get back to me.

I've met this thread as kindly as I can, and it's mine for christs sake, and I'm met with brash comments against me and people telling anyone who stands for us "why you shouldnt! becuase they don't listen!".

Stuff like that, man. Please, stop. I don't see how, inexplicably, the other real arguers aren't attacked with equal force.

Now, please, onward to the movie. Your response to this, Kid, would be best in PM, and anyone else who wishes to question mine or Ben's listening ability.

Please, contact me, I'm all ears.

Last edited Sun, 22nd Jul 2007, 5:46pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Sun, 22nd Jul 2007, 5:44pm

Post 95 of 141

Mellifluous

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Rating: +1

Firstly I think the FX Home movie rating system is limiting which hasn't helped the debate. If I was rating the movie on cinematography then it would get five. Sound probably another 5. But for story I would give a lower mark, maybe 2 - I didn't think it was particularly original or gripping.
Petet2 makes a good point here. The Fxhome rating system does force people to think about a lot of things concerning a film, then condense these feelings into ONE vote. Perhaps having a multiple category voting system would make it easier, allowing people to vote what they thought of Photography, Sound, Story and Misc Visual Effects (grading, compositing, effects etc).

Might be tedious for people to do, but on the other hand could make it easier for people to know what they need to work on whilst seeing other aspects valued. There'd have to be a script that crunched all the votes together though and then calculated the final Cinema vote, and that'd probably be difficult to implement (and maybe the final vote wouldn't be a reflection of what the viewer thought of the film overall, I don't know).

Just throwing it out there, anyway.
Posted: Sun, 22nd Jul 2007, 6:32pm

Post 96 of 141

Fill

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Mellifluous wrote:

Firstly I think the FX Home movie rating system is limiting which hasn't helped the debate. If I was rating the movie on cinematography then it would get five. Sound probably another 5. But for story I would give a lower mark, maybe 2 - I didn't think it was particularly original or gripping.
Petet2 makes a good point here. The Fxhome rating system does force people to think about a lot of things concerning a film, then condense these feelings into ONE vote. Perhaps having a multiple category voting system would make it easier, allowing people to vote what they thought of Photography, Sound, Story and Misc Visual Effects (grading, compositing, effects etc).

Might be tedious for people to do, but on the other hand could make it easier for people to know what they need to work on whilst seeing other aspects valued. There'd have to be a script that crunched all the votes together though and then calculated the final Cinema vote, and that'd probably be difficult to implement (and maybe the final vote wouldn't be a reflection of what the viewer thought of the film overall, I don't know).

Just throwing it out there, anyway.
That's an excellent idea.

Oh, and I owe you guys an apology for rating your movie a 3 instead of a 4 because of attitude issues. If I could take back my vote and put it to a 4, I would.
Posted: Sun, 22nd Jul 2007, 7:36pm

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ben3308

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Kyal wrote:

Oh, and I owe you guys an apology for rating your movie a 3 instead of a 4 because of attitude issues. If I could take back my vote and put it to a 4, I would.
You can. wink
Posted: Sun, 22nd Jul 2007, 9:55pm

Post 98 of 141

Serpent

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ben3308 wrote:

"no, you don't sound arrogant, you are arrogant!" -Serpent
I did not mean to make it sound like that and I'm sorry if I did. It just seemed like you have been coming off as arrogant here. I'm glad this thread seems to be settling down though. Back to Harry Potter...

-Serp
Posted: Sun, 22nd Jul 2007, 10:24pm

Post 99 of 141

Kid

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Atom wrote:

Kid wrote:

hatsoff2halford wrote:

This whole thread has become another rag on Ben and Atom and make them get defensive. Obviously, their attitudes aren't that great, but given the circumstances, it isnt too completely out of control.
The thing is that that isn't how it starts. People gave honest constructive critism and were answered with rudeness and arrogance. I find that unacceptable.
I'm sorry, Kid, but I will not tolerate someone defaming my character simply whenever someone else is defending it. You really need to read, my friend, and get back to me.

Now, please, onward to the movie. Your response to this, Kid, would be best in PM, and anyone else who wishes to question mine or Ben's listening ability.
I'll respond here because i am open with my views and what I have to say is no secret.

Granted, what I have said applies a lot more to Ben than you but you are a team, you are presenting this together and what he says does rub off on you. If he goes off on one you should quietly say behind the scenes, 'hey cool it, you're making us look bad'. Instead you back up what he says and get associated it.

Hatsoff was not simply defending you, he was suggesting that there was more to it, which I was trying to say is not the case.

I stand by my claims that you don't listen to what people say a lot of the time and get defensive and come up with silly excuses but as you've pointed out you do act on some of them and you are getting better. Its just a pain that we have to go through these arguments each time to get there.
Posted: Sun, 22nd Jul 2007, 10:54pm

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Rawree

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Righty-ho then, I've been following along with your "making of" thread and there seems to be quite a lot of noise being made about this movie so I thought I'd give it a look (admittedly it's quite unusual for me to watch stuff on here these days so consider yourselves special wink)

I'll admit straight away that I'm not very familiar at all with any of your recent work, never seen anything of your Splinter Cell movie, Cover Story or any other staples of Atomic Productions; Barbie girl is perhaps the only thing I've seen of yours for a year or two and that was due to sheer morbid curiosity. The reason I mention this is so that you're aware that I'm not comparing this to anything else you've done and to hammer home the point that I'm reviewing this from an entirely different perspective compared to anyone else so far.

The Review

To start I'll say that this really did start out with promise; the opening titles and initial shots suggested some real, gritty drama was about to follow despite the flaws like the camera shake on the opening shot (I have no idea why you didn't use a tripod for this) and the fact that it looked much more like a couple of guys out jogging than a race - it probably would have worked better if it had been planned this way. You can therefore imagine how disappointed I was when "inexplicable man with gun #4316" is thrown into the mix. For me this cheapened the whole movie made it seem far too much like you were trying to turn what could have been a simple piece into something it should and could never be. Big mistake.

When the actual movie gets going things start to get a bit confused and unrealistic even beyond artistic licence. Both runners decide to abandon their race to charge at a very agitated man who holding a gun to someone's face. The man shoots at the runners but they're not deterred and continue towards him. Runner number 1 thinks it a clever idea to leg it after the gun waving loon and, despite running past at least one person, never once stops to ask for help or tries to get in touch with the police or paramedics. Runner number 2 meanwhile remains behind and begins to call for help before picking up the recently shot victim and attempting to carry him to an unspecified. As Runner 1 wrestles the gunman to the floor Runner 2 seems to have developed some strong emotional connection with the victim who is (at least as far as the casual viewer would assume) a complete stranger. He breaks down in tears over the squirming form of the victim and then, for unknown reasons, the victim is all well and good again and is seen kneeling over the motionless body of his athlete saviour. Runner 1 has apparently beaten the gunman to death. I've watched several times and have no idea what on earth is going on.

Overall it just didn't seem all that emotive to me and, while it didn't necessarily feel too cheesy it was definately unnecessary

Technically it seemed pretty sound, one or two shots seemed to stand out as a bit amateurish (especially at 1:42/3/4) which is a shame but not a huge deal. As mentioned before the opening shot with it's shakeycam was a bit of a let down as it was the first thing you see and would be common sense to most to lock it off on a tripod. Grading seems to be one of your strong points and this definately helped contribute to a more professional feel to the piece. I do have big problems with the sound, however, as from 1:16 onwards it just seems to go sharply downhill. There's random snippets of what I assume is "on location" sound and then suddenly no ambient sound whatsoever which usually results in total silence. The sound effects used seemed almost laughably cliched (long ominous notes for suspence punctuated with "bumf"s and "swoosh"s when something dramatic happens. Above anything else there seemed to be no continuity or cohesion with the sound. Voiceover seemed to work well with the style you seemed to be going for.


Plot: 2/5 as it seems needlessly confusing and unrealsitic.
Acting: 3/5 as I imagine they were doing as directed and seem competant enough but it was just too over the top.
Looks: 4/5 as I have no complaints other than those above, had distinct style and looked professional enough.
Sound: 2/5 as it drew attention to itself far too much and seemed random, ill thought out and more than a tad cliched.

That probably averages out as a high 2 or a 3.
Posted: Mon, 23rd Jul 2007, 1:24am

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sfbmovieco

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I just didn't see the need, in a sports short movie to bring a gun into this.

Ben, you said something about how a person holding a gun has all the power...But you the director/writer have the power to put everyone on a level playing field and go at it from a different angle. I think in terms of how you guys went at this one from a competition standpoint, you took a step back.
Posted: Mon, 23rd Jul 2007, 1:58am

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ben3308

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sfb, the whole "King Rhymes" phase is finally over? Thank God, I liked the old sfb! wink

As for Rawree's stuff...

Rawree wrote:

Both runners decide to abandon their race to charge at a very agitated man who holding a gun to someone's face. The man shoots at the runners but they're not deterred and continue towards him. Runner number 1 thinks it a clever idea to leg it after the gun waving loon and, despite running past at least one person, never once stops to ask for help or tries to get in touch with the police or paramedics. Runner number 2 meanwhile remains behind and begins to call for help before picking up the recently shot victim and attempting to carry him to an unspecified. As Runner 1 wrestles the gunman to the floor Runner 2 seems to have developed some strong emotional connection with the victim who is (at least as far as the casual viewer would assume) a complete stranger. He breaks down in tears over the squirming form of the victim and then, for unknown reasons, the victim is all well and good again and is seen kneeling over the motionless body of his athlete saviour. Runner 1 has apparently beaten the gunman to death. I've watched several times and have no idea what on earth is going on.


This was sort of how we played out the story, see if you agreed with me here:

The two guys are running, and see a kid near death. The agitated gunman posses a serious threat, yeah, but not large enough not to stop and try and aid. Regular people aid scenarios like this all the time, it's not too extraordinary, we thought. A Good Samaritan scenario, of sorts, if that makes enough sense.

From there, the gunman runs away, ditching his now 'stained' gun and bloodied shirt. It's not uncommon for criminals to ditch their murder items near the scene of the crime, am I right? After seeing the gunman getting a good distance away, and with no gun, the younger runner briefly speaks with the older one and decides to follow the man, for whatever reason short of letting him escape after dastardly pistol-whipping a kid. Meanwhile, the older one tends to the kid, and, realizing he's in the middle of nowhere for this leg of the marathon, ditches the race and attempts to find help.

In my mind, I have a reasoning that were he to finish the marathon and come back to the kid the kid would already have died, being in such a desolate scenario with no clear help nearby.

Upon carrying the boy through the rest of the empty landscape, and realizing he, too, has been afflicted with a gunshot, both guys collapse of exhaustion, the older dying. The voiceover notes that when you set your mind to something- in this case, getting the kid to safety- nothing can break that, nothing can stop you- again, in this case, even being lethally wounded. This type of "never stop" mentality is also something my friends who boomed and gripped this movie (who are actual marathon and cross-country runners) said would hold true for a dedicated runner.

As the older kid dies, the younger spots an ambulance approaching and hobbles, with all his strength, into the street to signal the emergency vehicle. Despite the fact that all their struggles are seen as in vain (because the older died before getting the younger help) in the end, they "finish the race" and the younger is saved.

Two little fun facts before more people comment on this:

The kid-carrying runner was, more or less with intent, meant to be Jake Cover. And the kid he was carrying, in real life, is half a year older than the other guy, Cole, playing the other runner.
Posted: Mon, 23rd Jul 2007, 3:04am

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Atom

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Rawree and sbfmovieco, thanks guys! As always, we appreciate your comments!

_____________________________________________________
PLEASE NOTE, FXHOMERS, THAT THIS IS A NOTE DIRECTED AT "KID" AND IS NOT REPRESENTATIVE OF THE MOVIE. I AM MERELY WRITING IT IN THIS THREAD TO DEMONSTRATE A POINT. Please, mods, let it be.

I'm sorry, Kid, but my patience and restraint is wearing very thin with you, as it seems you have some self-proclaimed sense of knowledge we, apparently, don't.

While I'm inclined to write this in PM, you obviously haven't allotted me the favor, but wanted everyone to see "look at my comeback, guys! LOOOOK!", so I'll do the same and leave it at that. You respond back in this thread, and I'll have to talk to a mod. PM me. These are, quite obviously, personal matters you are discussing.

So the 'tude? Again, frankly, it's ridiculous. Stop this and contact me PM. Your sole purpose to continuing is only to discredit and defame people, as you've made evident. You have no intention of returning to conversation about the movie, merely relentlessly defending what we think, like you know.

This, again, really shows me (and I'm sure a majority of other members) why your name is "Kid".

Kid wrote:


I'll respond here because i am open with my views and what I have to say is no secret.
I frankly don't give a damn, not at all. I can be open with the views (and this is an extreme, hypothetical situation) that I don't support gay marriage. Just because I'm open with it does not IN ANY WAY make it acceptable, appropriate, or courteous to write in this thread.

Not at all. I wanted you to move to PMs simply to save myself and people interested in reading about the movie some unnecessary junk. Since.....well.......that's basically the point of PMs. But, being the self-centered, elitist, prejudiced, and generally negative person your posts convey (I suspect this isn't actually how you are, just saying this is what I've gathered)- you don't care about people straying away from this thread because of this crap, do you?

Of course not. You'd rather delight in things going to hell and somehow always pat yourself on the back. Well, I thought for a moment you had the capacity to act mature and courteous. Then again, why would I ever expect courtesy from you in the first place?

Granted, what I have said applies a lot more to Ben than you but you are a team, you are presenting this together and what he says does rub off on you. If he goes off on one you should quietly say behind the scenes, 'hey cool it, you're making us look bad'. Instead you back up what he says and get associated it.
Again, you obviously don't read. I've never directly supported what Ben is saying, but rather, saying I don't "necessarily agree". You can go ahead and find evidence of otherwise and throw it in my face with a big "AHA!", but if so, do it in PM. Nobody cares about you picking on people. Really, frankly, nobody cares about you.

And still........still.......still somehow know exactly how we act behind the scenes. This ability never ceases to amaze!

Hatsoff was not simply defending you, he was suggesting that there was more to it, which I was trying to say is not the case.
Frankly, you don't have a damn clue as to what is the case. You always obtrusively enter things and state things as fact. For how personally I take things, I'm still bloody glad I don't handle things like you- trapped in the delusion that I can understand, with complete certainty, other people's thoughts.

I stand by my claims that you don't listen to what people say a lot of the time and get defensive and come up with silly excuses but as you've pointed out you do act on some of them and you are getting better. Its just a pain that we have to go through these arguments each time to get there.
I can stand by my claim that you're an ego-centric, self-praising prick........so what? I'm standing by my own claim. Bravo........to me, I guess?

I've asked politely, I've responded kindly and as maturely as possible, and somehow you can get away with never returning the favor and have the gall to continue after I've said to respond to me in PM.

Kid. That pretty much sums it all up. "Kid" responses. Well, at least it's fitting.

Oh, and please, "Personal Message" me. (just in case you didn't pick up on the initials. wink)

_________________________________________________
Posted: Mon, 23rd Jul 2007, 6:02am

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Evman

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Why didn't the runner just call 911 instead of dragging the kid around an obviously urban environment for hours (at least the time it took for it to go from day to night) and kill himself in the process?

And yes this is a serious question.
Posted: Mon, 23rd Jul 2007, 6:21am

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ben3308

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We tried really hard to make a very populated city of ours look desolate and dilapadated, rid of previous urban sprawl and technology. Being a runner in a marathon, we assumed he'd have no real need for a cell phone, as there would be tons of people cheering him on at different points in the race (so that covers the safety and security aspect), and a cell would be too bulky to carry around in running pants with no pockets.

On this certain leg, however, the sidelines are empty (because it's on top of the levee, a single-lane remote area where legs of marathons are commonly held here), and therefore the exact worse spot for something bad to happen. A sort of cruel irony there. It's supposed to look like a completely, completely empty part of town where there is nobody and no place there to render aid.

Do you see the guy carrying the kid run into any cars or people, whatsoever? Do you even notice anything like that in the background, save on the levee, where the only cars that can be seen are a great distance away on the highway? No, not really.

The only reason it goes until nighttime- at least, with the story the movie is trying to tell- is because it made enough since to leave in there without re-filming a worse version of that scene. The truth is, we planned to have both scenarios go until night, with most loopholes being covered, but after Brian herniated it left us unable to film anything as the sun went down on Saturday (he was too weak, and we didn't want to hastily expend our energy by shooting some scenes with Cole that might not even be used), and- after some quick consideration- we figured that if we still wanted to roll with the whole "gradually going to nighttime" idea, we'd have to cleverly film our scenes in reverse sequence as the sun came up.

Well, I actually tried "backwards filming" the scenes exactly, shooting some of the quick cutaway flashbacks at 4:45am at the very break of dawn by a lake. These can be seen in the opening shot of "Running!" and the waning focus shot of the city, amongst others. After shooting this and doing some minor costume changes with Brian, I resolved it would be too difficult to do, and went ahead shooting linearly, leaving it up to my brother in post to figure things out, lol.

When you've got 14 hours left and your finish line is at least 45 minutes away, and you're planning about an hour's render-time worth of grading, that's the point when you've just got to roll with the punches and keep going.

So yeah, the whole nighttime final scene seemed a bit goofy to me, but it works well enough not to fuss about it. My friend actually did end up reshooting it while I went and shot some stuff of Black being pursued (the jumping over milkcrates shot right before it's revealed that Cover is shot) but it looked nowhere near as good as what we already had, and the performances were nowhere near as dramatic. And there was also a liberal use of the zoom, set to fast-zoom, which wouldn't work at all for a slow, painful scene like that.

So we kept the night stuff. The easiest assumption is that Black was beaten within inches of life by the late afternoon to sustain some sort of justice, and by early evening Cover was still out on his own, in a completely different area than his comrade (they wouldn't know where eachother would be, think about it) when he died trying to get the kid help.
Posted: Mon, 23rd Jul 2007, 9:47am

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Simon K Jones

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Rating: +2

Atom wrote:

I'm sorry, Kid, but my patience and restraint is wearing very thin with you, as it seems you have some self-proclaimed sense of knowledge we, apparently, don't.
The first rule of FXhome is: Do not argue with Kid.
The second rule of FXhome is: Do not argue with Kid.

This isn't because he has a good point, or because he's a brilliant debater, but because he simply won't shut up, even if it's blatantly obvious that he's wrong. He will perpetuate the argument forever if he can, so it's best to simply ignore him.

It's a shame how this topic went to hell in a handbasket and back, but it seems to be calming down now, so I won't get into it. I just hope that everyone involved has learnt something useful and that this won't happen again.

Right, with that out the way....

The film.

I liked it, but felt it was flawed. Visually it had a great feel, although it seemed to jerk between slow-mo and full speed at times, within the same shot, which I found a bit disconcerting. There is some great stuff here, though, and I felt it really pulled off a sense of isolation and desperation.

My main problem lies with the melodrama and acting style. Now, it's not that melodrama is necessarily a bad thing - it's been a vital part of storytelling for centuries. So despite what some people have said here, it's not automatically a bad thing.

The problem I have with it in this case is that I'm not sure it works in a short film context. I feel that melodrama and the heightened acting style here needs to be earned, in a way.

It's the kind of storytelling, dialogue and acting style you see in films like Magnolia, Crash, American Beauty etc. It works better on some of those than in others, but the crucial thing is that they all build up to it, rather than leaping straight in. As such, you're led by the hand into the film's world, get invested in their characters, then the heightened drama kicks in and gets all operatic. When Tom Cruise cries like a baby in Magnolia, it's the climax of a really interesting character arc. But to leap in with that scene 5 minutes into the film, people would have been chuckling in the aisles.

The same goes for the muscles-pulled-tight-oh-god-the-pain style acting here. It's not that it's bad acting - far from it. It's just too overwrought given the amount of time we've shared with these characters. We don't share their pain, or even empathise, so it's hard to take that level of expression seriously. If the scenes in marathon were the climax of a 2 hour movie, it'd work fantastically, I imagine. Same goes for the voiceover, which was a little too portentous and serious for such a short movie. I really liked the line about "it's not about winning, it's about finishing", however - although it was a shame you used it twice in the space of about a minute at the end. I'd have saved that and only used it once, for better effect.

I also share most of Rawree's concerns about the storytelling - the switch-around of the dying runner at the end confused me a bit and made me think I'd missed something. I also feel the gun was an unnecessary bit of over-dramatisation. Your cinematography is so strong, and your sound work was effective, and you had an interesting voiceover, which all could have worked in a much more down-to-earth film about actual marathon runners. Seeing a bog standard marathon presented in your epic style would be really interesting.

I guess what I'm saying is: you guys don't need the guns, or the action. Your technical skills already get the audience's attention. You need to have confidence in your own abilities to tell simpler, smaller stories, but with more emotional impact.

Looking forward to what you do next, as always. Well, as long as it isn't another silly music video. wink
Posted: Mon, 23rd Jul 2007, 12:31pm

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Rawree

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ben3308 wrote:

His response to my comments
Thanks for taking the time to reply. I agree with pretty much all you say in a way; artistic licence would perhaps allow you to have two athletes running at a gunman without interrupting the audience's suspension of disbelief. I also accept that it's not uncommon for evidence to be abandoned at the scene of a crime and, in this case, it makes the gunman less dangerous and allows the chase but in all honesty I didn't realise he'd dropped the gun. I saw the shot of the jacket on the floor but all of that happened so quickly that it obviously didn't register that the gun was gone as well. I think this illustrates the main problem which led to my confusion: you didn't make it clear enough what was going on and left too much ambiguity. For instance I didn't know that the runner had been shot and I don't think there was really anything to suggest that he had been and similarly if you'd shown the kid had been shot in the leg it wouldn't necessarily have made it any less dramatic but avoids the audience wondering why he's gone from almost dead to rescuing his rescuer. I realise you had time constraints and other problems led to changes in the plot but I still get the feeling that there were still fundamental flaws despite those problems.

Just to indulge my ego a bit I thought I'd share my thoughts on how I would re-script it whilst maintaining the themes and ideas I got from it:

-Two guys are running in the marathon, they are fierce rivals both competing to be the best.
-In the distance they see a young boy being beaten up by a small group of other lads, one of the runners recognises the victim as his brother (or something)
-The runner knows he must help his brother but his opponent seems intent on finishing the race. He shouts at the second runner to go for help whilst he goes to assist his sibling. The second runner says he will and continues to run.
-The gang run off. The athlete notices a deep head wound and knows they don't have much time to get him help. They wait for the second runner to return.
-Time passes and there's no sign of any help returning so, knowing he has no other choice, the athlete picks up his brother, determined to get him to a hospital. It is assumed that the other athlete has continued with the race thinking it more important.
-More time passes as they travel. The athlete can't take the strain any longer and is forced to lay his brother on the floor and collapses beside him. The effects of the massive blood loss take hold and the brother dies.
-Queue big emotional scene to satisfy your actors.
-Fade to the location of the attack, the second athlete returns with help. He looks around the empty location but the victim and his brother are no longer there.
-Fade to black.

Yes it's still cheesy but it eliminates the need for the gun, gives reason to the emotion, streamlines and simplifies the plot and maintains the "Good Samaratan" and determination themes (albeit in slightly different ways). Should I ever feel the desire to make a movie and wanted to remake this that's the series of events I'd use.
Posted: Mon, 23rd Jul 2007, 2:51pm

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drspin98

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What is the Fxhome record for # of pages for a film submission?
Posted: Mon, 23rd Jul 2007, 3:04pm

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Aculag

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drspin98 wrote:

What is the Fxhome record for # of pages for a film submission?
Well, just by looking at the top viewed movie in the cinema, Art Of The Saber, way more than 8. That one has 24, and I'm sure there are some with more than that.
Posted: Mon, 23rd Jul 2007, 3:08pm

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Simon K Jones

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The more accurate question would be "what is the FXhome record for # of pages for a film submission (that doesn't contain an atom & ben3308/b4uask30male endless argument)?" wink

Last edited Mon, 23rd Jul 2007, 3:15pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Mon, 23rd Jul 2007, 3:13pm

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FCRabbath

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Rating: +2

Well, i tried really hard to read all 8 pages before i go to work.
Interesting concept overall - and very well shot.

Now as far as taking bad reviews,

I've had this problem too, but don't take it personally even tho i know this is your baby. Because it will consume you by the time you are in Hollywood and reading reviews by people you can't reply to. FXHome is a great site, with great people. It also helps you prep for the big stuff. Don't ever say that you are the best (even if it might be true) it makes you look REALLY bad. Use the forums to practice thinking before you post. Instead of a real conversation where you have to reply immediately. No one likes bad reviews, but you need them to improve. If everyone said 5/5 then you will never improve - you should be happy they even TOOK the time to review the film. So smile that you got that far. I hope this helps, but in all honesty i know the only way people learn is through experience. Good luck guys.
Posted: Mon, 23rd Jul 2007, 4:18pm

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Kid

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I'm not PMing you because I have no intention of having a personal argument with you.

My comments are very relevant to this specific movie, how you have presented it to us and how you have specifically responded to critism this time.

Later when you do more work we will be able to look back and see if you took that critism to heart and improved yourselves. With it all hidden behind closed doors its all to easy to brush it under the carpet and pretend it never happened.

You talk about maturity and then go off on some personal tirade about me when I am simply trying to help you and defend those people who team atomic have been hugely rude to.

I've given you my feedback on the movie, I've given you my feedback on your attitude, that is all I have to say.
Posted: Mon, 23rd Jul 2007, 4:27pm

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Fill

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Obviously this is some kind of conspiracy. Kid's last post in this thread makes his post count 1717.
Two 17s that look the same. Twins.

COINCIDENCE?!

You thought you had me fooled.
Posted: Mon, 23rd Jul 2007, 5:43pm

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Atom

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Kid wrote:

I'm not PMing you because I have no intention of having a personal argument with you.

Me wrote:

You respond back in this thread, and I'll have to talk to a mod. PM me. These are, quite obviously, personal matters you are discussing.
Sollthar, go to work. wink
Posted: Mon, 23rd Jul 2007, 5:52pm

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Sollthar

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Not wanting to write a pm isn't a punishable crime and people are free to write whatever they wish in any thread, as long as it's within the forum guidelines. As long as Kid isn't being directly insulting, which he wasn't in his latest post, there's no reason to "go to work" for any mod.

Simply apply fxhome rules 1 and 2 atom, if you don't want this argument to go further. smile
Posted: Mon, 23rd Jul 2007, 6:03pm

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ben3308

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I think the main reason we chose to do our brand of drama (though I wouldn't put it as melodrama, as that's often overacted, which ours really isn't. 'hyperdrama', maybe?) is because we wanted a way to show off our talents in a unique way.

As teens, we really only have two main routes to go to do this. We can either have kids playing adults for some huge global crisis or something, or we can have melodrama. If you'll notice, since Splinter Cell we've become one of the few teens to stop doing the taboo "global disarmament project" style mob boss/bomb threat/drug deal/giant money scheme because, well.......it becomes cheesy, big time.

Fellow filmmaker Greg Cotten made a great detective movie for the 48-hour, but it was laughed at a bit in theaters because it was 18-year-olds playing the police chief to 17-year-olds. Marathon, on the other hand, despite having some excess drama, shocked people in their seats for 7 minutes: nobody laughed.

That's sort of the reason why we continue to choose this area of filmmaking, because it can be taken more seriously than any other 'serious' movie we could attempt to make. Now that we're outside of competition, it's fine for us to dabble in other genres, but they're often short-lived and poorly done in comparison to the drama. Just look at the Baby, the PB&J, or Eye of the Tiger.......yeah. biggrin

EDIT:

Oh yeah, and the Cover's Story thread got up to 13 pages. Some of our other movies are also big thread-starters.
Posted: Mon, 23rd Jul 2007, 8:48pm

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Atom

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Tarn wrote:

The more accurate question would be "what is the FXhome record for # of pages for a film submission (that doesn't contain an atom & ben3308/b4uask30male endless argument)?" wink
Even putting my name beside his makes me uncomfortable and feel very, very amateur. Yikes! smile
Posted: Mon, 23rd Jul 2007, 9:42pm

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The Critic of Death

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Actual actors. This is what I love to see. Good job.
Posted: Mon, 23rd Jul 2007, 10:34pm

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Arktic

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Rating: +3

...that's often overacted, which ours really isn't
I would very much disagree on this point.

Please, Ben, stop judging your own work and posting about how your decision of your own work is correct and everyone else is wrong.

It's like how Rawree or somebody will post "The plot didn't make much sense", and you'll post back "it really did". Or someone will say "It wasn't very dramatic" and you'll post back and say "it really was dramatic".

You can't just TELL the audience what they're supposed to think about your movie. They have to make up their own minds.

Surely the point of this thread is for people to tell you what THEY thought about your film, not for you to refute every single criticism, and tell us how good you think your own film is?

It's annoying, because you're a very accomplished film-maker. You have no need to try to defend your movie against all comments. Let people think what they want, and don't repeatedly post your own views.

Cheers,
Arktic.
Posted: Mon, 23rd Jul 2007, 10:58pm

Post 120 of 141

codysolo

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Rating: +2

My opinions on Marathon...it was decent. Not god's gift to the filmmaking community, but not terrible. And it really wouldn't have this aura of negativity around it if it's filmmakers hadn't reacted so harshly to honest criticisms.
Posted: Mon, 23rd Jul 2007, 11:11pm

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Rawree

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codysolo wrote:

My opinions on Marathon...it was decent. Not god's gift to the filmmaking community, but not terrible. And it really wouldn't have this aura of negativity around it if it's filmmakers hadn't reacted so harshly to honest criticisms.
What you've done there is hit the nail right on the head. You too Arktic but you have to admire the simplicity of this post.
Posted: Tue, 24th Jul 2007, 2:24am

Post 122 of 141

Atom

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Rawree wrote:

codysolo wrote:

My opinions on Marathon...it was decent. Not god's gift to the filmmaking community, but not terrible. And it really wouldn't have this aura of negativity around it if it's filmmakers hadn't reacted so harshly to honest criticisms.
What you've done there is hit the nail right on the head. You too Arktic but you have to admire the simplicity of this post.
Well, I beg to differ. But whatever. These 'attitude comments' I thought were done, and I really hope it stays that way.
Posted: Tue, 24th Jul 2007, 3:44am

Post 123 of 141

KevJay

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Well, I had a chance to check this out after reading the entire, painfull thread.

From strictly a filmaking aspect, I do have to say this to me deserves a 4. I went into it thinking I wouldn't enjoy it and I ended up doing the exact opposite.

I thought it was pretty cool, everything has already been said, so no need to say it any further. Its another story where a gun wasn't necessary, it coulda been a knife, or somethng more realistic to the mugging kids age, but watever.

Since this was just made to be a visually intense, although somewhat over-dramatic story, It did its job and it did it very well.

The story lacks, but I can't give this less than a 4.

However, I am very upset with both ben's actions and a little upset at Atom in this thread, this goes way beyond the mishap in cover's story, but watever, it's all been said before, and I doubt im gunna make any change, but I just wanna express my feelings here.

So Ben and Atom, if you take it personally, im sorry, I respect you guys as filmmakers completely, you know what you're doing, and i won't say more that will just cause a fight, I don't wanna make enemies, cause in this world, we have way to many of those already.

So all in all, I say, great job guys. 4/5 from me.

Now please, go out and spend more than 48 hours on a movie so I can be completely blown away. biggrin
Posted: Tue, 24th Jul 2007, 3:53am

Post 124 of 141

miker

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Why is does EVERY Atom/Ben thread spin out of control? razz

Downloading hella slowly... posting review... when it finishes... later... in a couple hours?
Posted: Tue, 24th Jul 2007, 3:57am

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Atom

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Sorry about the download time, too, miker. My server is heeeellllllaaaa slow. smile I'm hopefully switching to a new one next month.

Bamsukka- Thanks, man. I appreciate.
Posted: Tue, 24th Jul 2007, 4:07am

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miker

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Atom wrote:

Sorry about the download time, too, miker. My server is heeeellllllaaaa slow. smile I'm hopefully switching to a new one next month.
Cool deal, I'll review this beast as soon as I get a sec.
Posted: Tue, 24th Jul 2007, 4:09am

Post 127 of 141

Atom

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miker wrote:

Atom wrote:

Sorry about the download time, too, miker. My server is heeeellllllaaaa slow. smile I'm hopefully switching to a new one next month.
Cool deal, I'll review this beast as soon as I get a sec.
Will do. Hope that hour of downloading isn't too much for ya. smile

Oh, and for any super sexy captured scientists out there (wink), I surely hope we can resolve this matter without me having to kidnap anyone and wait for Adam Kirley to come knocking.
Posted: Tue, 24th Jul 2007, 4:32am

Post 128 of 141

sfbmovieco

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Atom and Ben...I've been with this community for a long time...Over 5 years to be exact...And in my time here, the fxhome, or at the time, the alamdv community has never outright expressed hate and or spite towards any member just for the fun of it. Those members who do usually do not last long.

I do not hate you guys, but I really do not like your arrogance. I believe this movie to be at best a 3, but am not going to rate it because I don't feel I gave the movie the necessary multiple viewings it would need to judge properly, imo...

All of your dramatic movies look the same, feel the same, and to Ben's own admittance, involve someone with more power in the situation because they have a gun. Weak.

Let me give you an example. I play basketball. I've played it for more than 15 years. I love it. It's something that in my life, I've done better than anything else. What if I told you, by just seeing you practicing or shooting around I could beat you. No question about it. It's fact. I would flat out smoke you. How would you feel? Not only could I beat you, but I beat I could beat about 85% of the fxhome users in a game of one on one. No doubts. It's a done deal.

With the collaboration of one of fxhome's talented previous users (cypher) I wrote a film. He directed it. We both produced it. He lives in Canada, so when he finally sent me the dvd, hot damn...I loved it. He didn't even stray from the script. Those were my words. No one elses. So I showed it around, he took it to festivals, and the feelings were mixed. Even people in my own family didn't give me 100% approval. Most of those who didn't care for it didn't get it. Some of that was a age divide, but most of it was me. My fault. My bad. Didn't show the story. I told it too much. Back to the drawing board.

If you remain on here, I suggest your only posts on your own thread should be one of the two responses:

"Thank you! smile "

or

"Great, I'll try and work on that next time."

EDIT: Ben and Atom, one more thing. When I had movies on here it was like pulling teeth to get people to comment and rate it. You guys draw such a big crowd that everyone wants to weigh in. Just be thankful that people are so intrigued by you guys to want to comment.

Last edited Tue, 24th Jul 2007, 4:36am; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Tue, 24th Jul 2007, 4:39am

Post 129 of 141

Atom

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I think I should respond how I see fit depending on the comment, but other than that, I understand and agree, sbf.

As for the number of comments and votes. I am, honestly. I think I've even said a couple times in this thread that regardless of everything else, it's flattering to have so many people be drawn to it. And it is, really.


Thanks, King Rhm.............errr..............sbfmovieco.
Posted: Tue, 24th Jul 2007, 6:27am

Post 130 of 141

Mellifluous

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To be fair, unless I'm missing deleted or extremely edited posts, I personally haven't seen any attitude from Atom.

Back on page 2 or something, I read a post where Atom said he was very disappointed about some negative reviews, but that's as sulky he got. Ben on the other hand didn't take the criticism well and I agree with codysolo's post with regards to Ben. On the face of it, it seems like a lot of the negativity stemmed from Ben over-defending his baby. So I've seen posts saying if only Ben and Atom hadn't been so... and I've thought, if only Atom hadn't what? Isn't it the case of tarnishing one with the same brush in this case?

Edit: Was thinking the same point before I read sbfmovieco's post. Thank people for watching the movie, and leaving their comments. Leave it at that.

Last edited Tue, 24th Jul 2007, 3:21pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Tue, 24th Jul 2007, 8:33am

Post 131 of 141

Simon K Jones

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I've just done some hefty modding on the last couple of pages to get it back on track. I should also point out that the attitude/opinions expressed by one of the mods in the removed posts do not reflect those of the FXhome team.

What's said is said, let's get back to the movie.
Posted: Wed, 25th Jul 2007, 10:12am

Post 132 of 141

Nutbar

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Just watched the movie and now i'll add my comments.

The movie itself was technically sound, well lit, nice camera work ect... The thing that let it down for me, now i assume its due to the restrictions you had, was the way the story was told by a narrator. It was easy to follow, I don't really understand how people can say it was hard to follow, the story was right there fed to you on a plate. This meant that there was no real depth to the plot though, you could have closed your eyes and still have got the story, the visuals didn't really add anything to the overall plot.

I think the biggest problem you guys have is the way you keep doing these film races. They might be fun and challenging and all that, and while you have improved quite considerably over the last few peices I think you are restricting youself in the one area that you still need to improve on and you will keep restricting yourself while you are doing these film races, and that is the story. I would love to see a short film (or feature) that you have sat down and developed over the space of a few months rather than something you have developed over a few hours. I think you have gained everything you will gain from doing these 24/48 hour film challenges. Time to move onto bigger things.

It was a choice for me between a 3 and a 4, but while I think it was a better peice of work than your previous film (which i think i rated 4) i'm going to give this a 3. You show a lot of potential, but while you are limiting youself to making films in such a short time you are holding yourselves back.
Posted: Wed, 25th Jul 2007, 6:25pm

Post 133 of 141

B3N

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I demand Ben3308 and Atom to make a real film!wink.
A film...that has time put into it and care. Seriously guys, you have been making all these little time limit films and stuff and they turn out great but the storys seem to be lacking in power now. If you spent a while making a film I'm sure it would come out looking great with a great storyline and hopefully something different to "the man with a gun has power".

But if you continue to create your short 28-48 hour shorts then thats a chance to show of newly learnt techniques etc. But combining them into a big half an hour movie for example would yeild great results.

I seriously think you guys can go all the way if you take critism as it comes and do what you keep doing...experimenting etc.

wink
B3N
Posted: Thu, 26th Jul 2007, 9:15pm

Post 134 of 141

ben3308

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Arktic wrote:

...that's often overacted, which ours really isn't
I would very much disagree on this point.

Please, Ben, stop judging your own work and posting about how your decision of your own work is correct and everyone else is wrong.
I understand what you're saying here, but I want you to know it's not just my work, it's not just me praising myself or anything, rather, I'm judging it as a team effort. Surely I can have an opinion on, say, the editing; which I had no part in?

Notice how we never, ever put anyone as a director because we all put different amounts of effort into our projects. I admire my own movies not because I've made them, but because I respect what my friends have done as well. For example, I've put Cover's Story on my personal top ten because I love the acting in it. I can't act anywhere near as good as my friend Brian can, and, from what I've seen, nobody (so far) has proven better at acting in a teenage production. I'm not saying my friend is the best actor, ever, just that I've yet to see better. There's a big difference there.

Arktic wrote:

You can't just TELL the audience what they're supposed to think about your movie. They have to make up their own minds.
You've completely misunderstood what I'm saying.

I can concede that perhaps 'Marathon' has drama at the wrong points, but it's near fact that it's not overacted. Overacting, as the term where, is where actions and dialogue are overdone on purpose, likely for a stage performance or a kids' show. I understand that the acting is the wrong style at the wrong moment for you, but that doesn't make it overacted. Yet again, big difference there.
Posted: Thu, 26th Jul 2007, 9:25pm

Post 135 of 141

Fill

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ben3308 wrote:

Arktic wrote:

You can't just TELL the audience what they're supposed to think about your movie. They have to make up their own minds.
You've completely misunderstood what I'm saying.

I can concede that perhaps 'Marathon' has drama at the wrong points, but it's near fact that it's not overacted. Overacting, as the term where, is where actions and dialogue are overdone on purpose, likely for a stage performance or a kids' show. I understand that the acting is the wrong style at the wrong moment for you, but that doesn't make it overacted. Yet again, big difference there.
Hypocrisy. smile
Posted: Thu, 26th Jul 2007, 9:51pm

Post 136 of 141

Arktic

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No ben - over acting is simply where the actor does not act subtly.

Whether that's intentional or not is beside the point.
Posted: Thu, 26th Jul 2007, 10:03pm

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Evman

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Gee I thought the arguments were done.
Posted: Thu, 26th Jul 2007, 10:05pm

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Sollthar

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They are.

The next time Ben feels the need to counterargue everything someone says, the post will simply be erased. *schwarzenegger voice*
Posted: Thu, 26th Jul 2007, 10:07pm

Post 139 of 141

Simon K Jones

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Overacting can be good and it can be bad. Ian McDiarmid in Star Wars episode 3, for example - rampant, absurd overacting.....and I utterly love it. It's great. Same goes for Brian Blessed in, well, most things.

In Marathon, I would have preferred to see something more subtle. As I think I mentioned before, it's not necessarily bad acting per se - it's not even an issue with the actor, really, it's more to do with the director getting the appropriate level of performance for the script in question. Which, of course, is going to be difficult when you only conceived the story 24 hours earlier, if that. smile
Posted: Wed, 12th Dec 2007, 6:01am

Post 140 of 141

ben3308

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Win a copy of this movie by entering the "Holiday Movie Marathon". Enter today!



Click the banner below to navigate to the contest thread:
Posted: Wed, 12th Dec 2007, 9:14am

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Simon K Jones

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Ooh, nice DVD cover! I like it.