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The Jena Six: what are your thoughts?

Posted: Mon, 24th Sep 2007, 5:00am

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ben3308

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If you haven't heard about the Jena Six, either from not hearing the news or not keeping up with stuff in America, you should know it's a huge issue in the south right now.

Dealing with racial issues and direct questioning of the fortitude of the law, the debate has sparked some very interesting viewpoints form either side of the argument.

Basically, a series of racial issues including black kids intentionally congregating under an unofficially 'white' tree, and nooses being hung from the tree, to six black kids beating one white kid to unconsciousness have all happened during the span of this 'Jena Six' incident.

I'll go ahead and quote my Facebook post, entitled "Why the Jena Six should NOT be freed" in the "Free the Jena Six" official group, and see what you make of it.

When I first heard of people supporting a cause for the "Jena Six", which, I was told, was an event of racism and bigotry in Louisiana, I was all for supporting the cause.

People even wore all black to school. Everyone did it. I sat around thinking, "Wow, did a white kid kill a black kid or something? Why the black? This must be big."

Then I did a little reading.

I know the story about the tree and the nooses and everything, and how the white school board wouldn't expel the students involved. Yeah, that's racist, we all know. But hanging nooses without directly targeting anyone isn't against the law and it isn't a hate crime. As sorry as that is, that's how the law works.

So then a white kid heckles a black kid. Yeah, again, it happens. It's racism, yet again, but it's not breaking the law.

But then, let me get this straight, six black guys beat the kid unconscious. And you want these people 'freed'? It's recognizable as a 'schoolyard fight', but beating someone with a shoe until they're unconscious is breaking the law. It's assault and battery. That's against the law.

These people chose to be functioning members of American society, and to do that you must accept and obey the laws of the land. If you break them: you broke them. There's no way around that.

A crime is a crime. Attempt to commit murder it surely is not, but it's most certainly assault. Also, the fact that the hallowed 'Jena Six' decided to fight the white kid six-on-one is even more pathetic. Do fair fights happen anymore?

I want to clearly delineate that I'm not trying to 'call out' the Jena Six, nor am I saying what they did wasn't completely unjustified (the nooses and the being beat up at the subsequent party is a big deal), but once you break the law, society dictates you be punished by fine or imprisonment.

So my thoughts on "freeing" the Jena Six?

It most certainly shouldn't be done.

If the sentences completely get overturned that will say nothing for our legal system. Popularity, or mass appeal to one side of a court case- in this case, the exodus of people to Jena to rally against it- should not affect the outcome of a trial. That just wouldn't be fair in the eyes of the United States judicial system.

Lowering the sentences: that's a smart move. But let us not 'free' those who have willing relinquished their freedom by beating another human being unconscious.
And this one is in response to a lot of reprisal I got, but it delineates most of what I have to say on this issue, so I'll quote it as well and people can discuss from there.

Daniel,

even though I regret to say that the law is this way at times, hanging nooses is not illegal. A hate crime constitutes the targeted threatening of a specific people separated by race, religion, or creed. Nooses, specifically, do not target black people. In fact, historically, they've been used to kill more whites than blacks. The hangman's noose, which is the most common 'noose-like' rope know we see, was invented in the Elizabethan era to hang English nobility, all of whom were white.

Beyond that, yes, hanging a noose after black kids sit under a tree does imply historical recollection of the lynching of blacks in southern America. However, because the noose cannot be specifically identified as a threat against blacks (because even in this context, the noose is still a universal means of executing), it cannot be considered a 'hate crime' as such. Even if this made it to court- let's even say the Supreme Court- it would get thrown out as circumstantial, because there's no clear target. That's just the laws that are written, I don't make them.

DeVante,

I was unclear in my wording, I apologize. They had shoes on their feet, but the shoes they wore in question can be considered a deadly weapon in this context; and are therefore the basis for 'aggravated' assault. Unless the American school system completely failed the Jena Six, it should be known to anyone that severe blows to the face and head (which, in this case were perpetrated by the kicking feet of the black students to the unconscious white student's head) are deadly: they have the potential to kill.

Just because the kid didn't end up that beaten at the end of things does not make the assault any less aggravated. If a man with a knife stabs me in my left ventricle, but by some chance someone steps in, pulls the guy off me, and by miraculous intervention I live and go to a movie that same night; that doesn't change the fact that the guy stabbed me. Whilst this is obviously a more extreme example than just kicking someone; the act of kicking someone in the neck, head, and face while they're on the ground is proven to kill. In fact, this was one of the primary methods of mafia killings in New York in the 1920's through the 40's. But that's irrelevant.

Also, to be as bold as to say that the legal system's sole beneficiary is white Americans is a gross misstatement and is a testament to how misinformed most of the 'Free Jena Six' crowd is. Racism goes both ways, it's just because of historical significance with slavery and the ill-treatment of blacks in America throughout the 20th century that whites make less of a 'deal' out of things for fear of reprisal, at times. This, yet again, is irrelevant, though. So let's keep out of this discussion in particular.

Mike,

What? Who's proud?

Jalessa,

You'd think you'd be right, seeing as the white kid who was knocked unconscious apparently attended a sporting event of some kind (true?) later that night that he was beaten, but if his family chooses to press charges on the precedence of assault or battery- and such charges are substantiated- then the black kids are open to be punished by the full extent of the law in the context of the crime they committed. It's, again, sad that the white kid DID decide to press charges- as most schoolyard fights don't often end this way- but I think the fact that he lost consciousness is the reasoning for him filing the charge. It's because of this that the case itself hasn't stayed within the school's penal system.

Raymond,

The law does not care in particular about the circumstances leading up to the breaking of it, it cares about when/how/where/why you broke the law. Regardless of the previous incidents, beating someone up, especially to the point of unconsciousness, is against the law. As has been aforementioned, by choosing to live in American society, you automatically choose the abide by its rules; one of which is the stipulation that you cannot assault another individual without suffering from the inherent repercussions.

The white kid heckling the black kids holds no basis on the charges of the black kids. Should the white kid be tried? Probably. But when you're arrested, it's you vs. the courts, not you vs. the other perpetrator. In this case, the 'Jena Six' broke the law, regardless of anything else. Breaking the law is breaking the law, that's all there is to it. An eye-for-an-eye treatment to the situation- which you've noted you're in favor of, and, to an extent, I am too- may be one of the best ways to handle this incident, but unfortunately that's not how the American legal system works. If it's something one cannot live with, then I suggest you live somewhere else. The system is flawed at best, but it's still generally efficient. And we'd be nothing without it.
I hope I'm not the only one passionate about this issue, as its certainly an important one in today's American politics.
Posted: Mon, 24th Sep 2007, 5:16am

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Bryce007

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I'll just mention this:



If it had been six white dudes beating one black guy unconcious with a shoe, I'm sure most people would feel that the kids couldn't get a jail sentence LONG enough.


I really wish people would just let go of racial past times and move on. Seriously. It's getting us nowhere.
Posted: Mon, 24th Sep 2007, 5:45am

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Waser

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Like everything that happens in this world, both sides of the argument are mostly wrong.

My opinion? "freeing" the Jena 6 or whatever is absurd, and they should be punished for their crime, but when they face something like 22 years as handed down by an all white jury, when white people who had been charged with similar crimes in Jena got off with about a year of time, that is just absurd as well. Oh yeah, and "attempted murder" my tookish.

/rant
Posted: Mon, 24th Sep 2007, 5:54am

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KA Productions

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Ya, I saw this two days ago on the news. I saw Jesse Jackson preaching, and the first thoughts in my head were "Dear god, a bunch of black people holding a anti-racism sermon, bringing the past back up." Then the news explained what happened, and I took back what I said.
In some ways I am surprised, that fact that this racial issue still exists. Then again, I'm not that surprised because it was the south after all. This is probably happening all the time. Look at the Hispanics for example. They are being major prejudiced against, just because some Mexicans are slipping into the U.S. Illegally, and now every Hispanic gets the fall.
I heard on the news one time, a Hispanic kid got expelled for having a emblem of his country's flag on his backpack. He was a respected soccer star, and got expelled for potential gang activity. Then some other Hispanics got expelled for doing the same thing, in protest against the schools decided course of action. It got the point where some white girl yelled at the kids in the lunch room "If you are so proud of your country, why don't you beaners go back to it?". The Mexican kids got expelled because they tried to beat that girl up for saying that.
There was a huge protest, and the school got in a lot of shit over it all, and unexpelled the students.

My point here is that racism still exists, and will always exist, and that it is not only the black community that should have the right to protest this stuff.
That Jena Six thing will spawn another Martin Luther king time, and the Mexicans can have a similar movement of their own, all because some people *courghredneckscough* think some people are lesser than others.
And no, I do not think what happened was right at all.
Posted: Mon, 24th Sep 2007, 5:57am

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ben3308

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Waser, to be clear, the jury was all-white because though the town called all available of the black minority into the jury pool, none bothered to show up. It was the inaction of the African-American community in Jena themselves that led to such an uneven set of jurors.
Posted: Mon, 24th Sep 2007, 10:30am

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Simon K Jones

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I'm with Waser. As always.

ben3308 wrote:

Waser, to be clear, the jury was all-white because though the town called all available of the black minority into the jury pool, none bothered to show up.
How hard did they try to look? When they 'called all available', how did they go about doing that exactly?

As for the nooses...the intent is fairly clear. How far do you want to go with the "it's just a bit of rope tied to a tree" argument? A gun is just a collection of plastic and metal. A knife is just a piece of sculpted metal. Kicking somebody in the head is just moving your foot in various directions in three dimensional space, and that somebody's head was in the way could be argued to be a simple quirk of time and space.

Ridiculous, of course. My point is that you can get bogged down in semantics and avoid the main issue: intent. The hanging nooses have a pretty clear intent, as did the beating.

The crucial difference, I'd say, is that the nooses and other racial issues were seemingly completely ignored by the local community and authorities, while the beating was not. Had the deeper racial issues been confronted to begin with, rather than conveniently ignored, then the beating would most likely never have actually occurred.

Seeing as I haven't done major research on this topic, I reserve the right to be hugely misinformed on all points. wink
Posted: Mon, 24th Sep 2007, 12:40pm

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Sollthar

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Ben wrote:

But hanging nooses without directly targeting anyone isn't against the law and it isn't a hate crime.
"Annoying the hell out of someone until he hits you isn't a crime. But he hitting is." Quite an amusing yet shockingly infantile chain of arguments really, apart from the fact it's also not correct.
The US has laws against racial provocation, rights for human dignity etc. So the act of hanging nooses can indeed be against the law. So is a white kid heckling a black kid or the other way round.
The only problem is, someone obviously needs to prosecute it and certain circumstances need to be given. But that is again a null point to argue.

Should 6 people beating someone else unconscious go unpunished? No, of course not. Should people provoking others with racial actions, and therefore indeed breaking laws as well, go unpunished? No.
Should the acts of provocation that potentially led to said outcome and the mistakes already done by not persuing what would have needed to be persuit be taken into account? Of course. Should those who beat THEM up be punished as well, with the same strength? Hell yes.

So. That's my 2 cents.
Posted: Mon, 24th Sep 2007, 2:17pm

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neoglitz

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At this age in my life, I really thought that the racism issue would be much further away from all of our minds in this day and age. Obviously, it is not.

I have lived the majority of my life in the South less than 75 miles from Memphis, Tennessee. I have seen racism first hand and experienced myself as a white male. Yes, I know laugh, but whites in the South can get flak just like it is white on black. The thing is it has never been considered a "hate crime" or racism when blacks do such things to whites in most circumstances. I don't really care if you agree with me or not, but unless you have lived here in the South you would not know what I am talking about.

The rest of the World has moved on past racism in most instances, but the South has not. The issue is only re-ignited when this type of thing happens.

Yes, justice most previal. These kids should be punished and if the DA can prove attempted murder then do it. I do not approve of the behavior of the white boys with the noose. Dumb, very dumb, but stating the Jena 6 should be set free is absolutely stupid. It is comparing apples to oranges in the events.

Now I ask this question... how many of you have heard about the young white couple tortured, raped and murdered in Knoxville, Tennessee earlier this year? I would bet very few of you. The local area of East Tennessee has been in an uproar over where the news coverage is for this young couple, but it still seems very non-existant.

You can read the articles for yourself at the link below. IN ORDER TO UNDERSTAND THE PRESENT SITUATION OF RACISM IN THE SOUTH, you MUST read this article!
http://www.sullivan-county.com/wcva/liberal_racism.htm
Five black individuals committed this crime on a white couple MINDING THEIR OWN BUSINESS. However, if you you look at all of the blogs and whatnot out there on the internet, you will see that certain people will attempt to justify the slaying of the couple down to the argument of "forty acres and a mule."

We will never get past the racism issue in the deep South. Never. I have finally come to this conclusion, mainly over the events of this year. The issue is used as a crutch by alot of people. Sometimes to swing it at people and other times as an excuse for their own lack of ability.
Posted: Mon, 24th Sep 2007, 3:09pm

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Simon K Jones

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neoglitz wrote:

You can read the articles for yourself at the link below. IN ORDER TO UNDERSTAND THE PRESENT SITUATION OF RACISM IN THE SOUTH, you MUST read this article!
I doubt that somehow. You can't understand something so complex by reading a single article, especially one on the Internet.

Five black individuals committed this crime on a white couple MINDING THEIR OWN BUSINESS.
What's with the sensational WRITING IN CAPITALS? It's all a bit tabloidy, to be honest, and designed to instigate an emotional response - exactly the opposite thing you should be trying to do if you're trying to deal with the truth and hard facts.

The article you linked to similarly passes off opinion and subjective reactions as hard, dry facts. It uses extremely manipulative language and choice quotes in order to create its particular argument, while pretending to be dealing in logic and facts - as indicated in its deliberately provocative title 'Are Facts Racism?'

Note I'm not commenting on its actual conclusions - I don't have time to read through the entire article now, as I'm at work - but I just felt the need to warn against taking one single source as the truth, and also to note that it's vital to be very aware of manipulative language. It's often a clever technique used by people to mask their unsavoury attitudes behind a veneer of supposed logic and rationality - when it's actually anything but.


As for the media's coverage of some things and not others, that's a whole other issue again, I would argue, and isn't restricted just to racism. The media is a corporate being that goes after ratings. If you want to get a proper idea of what's going on, you have to do the hard work yourself and check out multiple (international) sources. Reading only a few limited news sources, especially local ones, will likely result in a skewed or mis-informed view of a situation.

In other words: as usual, education and information is the answer.
Posted: Mon, 24th Sep 2007, 3:25pm

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neoglitz

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Tarn wrote:

...exactly the opposite thing you should be trying to do if you're trying to deal with the truth and hard facts.
Hardly me, turn on the television in the States or open any newspaper in the States right now and you will see the thousands of demostrators in the small town of Jena, LA.

I don't expect you to understand an area of the World where you do not live. By all means, do your own research on the article link. It was only one of the quickest links I could post. Sorry, you find it unworthy.
Posted: Mon, 24th Sep 2007, 3:38pm

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Hybrid-Halo

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neoglitz wrote:


I don't expect you to understand an area of the World where you do not live.
Lame. Lame. Lame.

A lame thing to say considering that it is unlikely that you, or anyone understands the full scope and entire truths of any given situation especially when they are directly within it i.e. incapable of being entirely objective.

In this thread we are all expressing opinions which are more or less on differing levels of understanding. One opinion is not invalidated simply because they are not personally involved, if anything they should be valued rather than shunned by being moronic and insular. An Ironic stance considering your countries reputation for commenting on/invading places they do not live. No?

-Hybrid.
Posted: Mon, 24th Sep 2007, 3:39pm

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Sollthar

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neoglitz wrote:

I don't expect you to understand an area of the World where you do not live.
.... Alright, so why do you post the article in the first place? Surely, everyone in need to read the article doesn't live there and hence doesn't understand it anyways. And those who live there won't have to read it, because they live there and hence have the perfect understanding of things to begin with - simply because they life there.
The "You don't understand it because you don't know it" card is one of the cheapest cards in the book and the ultimate debate killer. If you seriously going to use that in a debate, then I guess we can kill the thread since any debate is superflous.

If you actually want to have a reply to that argument, so be it then:

The fact if you live somewhere or don't live somewhere does have an influence on your personal experiences no doubt, but I could as well state the opposite: Only people who don't live in a certain area can get the distant overview and calm reasoning because they're not emotionally involved.
In reality, both arguments are wrong of course.
Having a personal connection to a subject can both help you or blind you completely, while the absence of a personal relation can both give you a necessary emotional distance and overview or make you ignorant.


Besides, Tarn only stated that you shouldn't fuel emotion into a matter delicate is that - hence he picked on your use of capitals and the rather sensational sentence "MINDING THEIR OWN BUSINESS". He wasn't disagreeing with what you said, only responding to what seems to be an emotional subject many people - which is hardly going to make a reasoned decision possible.

On a sidenote, I haven't read the article myself and I'm not going to. This topic is about something different.
Posted: Mon, 24th Sep 2007, 3:41pm

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averagejoe

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I live in Birmingham, Alabama. I have spent more than half my life in this region. 40 years ago, this City was nicknamed Bombingham due to the racially directed bombings in the area that killed and injured dozens. This area was part of some of the biggest moments in the "Civil Rights" movement. The nation as a whole has made much needed progress in regards to racial issues. But there are certain back-water communities that still have racial problems, the leadership for whatever reason has decided to cultivate it usually due to inaction or unthought out action. This particular situation with the Jena 6 is a very hard one. The communitiy has a history of racial problems and incidents happen on a regular basis.

The root of the problem is how communities and the families that make them up continue the mis-informed mind set that "they" are different than "us" so you have to hate them.

And to reply to the gentleman before me, people that do wrong to others is not a black or white thing it is they are an A**hole thing. Most of the time someone will point fingers and say he did that because I am black or he did this to me because I am white.

I worked in a majority "black" neighborhood delivering pizza when I was in school. The times that individuals attempted to pull weapons on me and take away the pizza and money I had, it never entered my mind that they did it because they were black or that I was white. It happened because they are arses and have no respect for anyone. These same people would just as easily rob or hurt one of there own "color". When it comes down to it,such circumstances are not racially driven it is driven by a personal choice to hurt someone else to get what they want. The nooses and the fight in Jena are the same thing. People choose to do wrong.

I am starting to ramble, that is my two cents... for the moment.
Posted: Mon, 24th Sep 2007, 4:09pm

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neoglitz

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I don't expect you to understand an area of the World where you do not live. Call it lame or whatever you want, but it is the truth. I don't understand the underlying issues in your Country, region or local neighborhood. Issues along those lines can date back hundreds of years. Look to the Middle East, do you understand that?

The CAPS issue is in regard to the mindset of "the white boy(s) had it coming due to their action(s)," nothing more, nothing less. This is an argument presently with the Jena 6. Almost an incite to riot type of legal issue.
Posted: Mon, 24th Sep 2007, 4:16pm

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Sollthar

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I don't expect you to understand an area of the World where you do not live. Call it lame or whatever you want, but it is the truth.
It may be the truth that you don't expect us to understand an area of the world we don't live in. It may also be the truth that you don't understand the issues in other countries.
But it's not the truth that an issue outside of your own country can only be understood by people from within that area - explanations I've posted above. That's where you're wrong. You're welcome to present a chain of argument that shows otherwise, if you can actually find one.

The CAPS issue is in regard to the mindset of "the white boy(s) had it coming due to their action(s)," nothing more, nothing less.
Maybe you can point me into the right direction, but I don't find any post in this thread that says something even remotely close to those lines?

Last edited Mon, 24th Sep 2007, 4:17pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Mon, 24th Sep 2007, 4:17pm

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Simon K Jones

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neoglitz wrote:

The CAPS issue is in regard to the mindset of "the white boy(s) had it coming due to their action(s)," nothing more, nothing less. This is an argument presently with the Jena 6. Almost an incite to riot type of legal issue.
It's a shame that the argument is being reduced to such an inane mindset, then, as there are some really important issues involved that are getting swamped in an outpouring of emotion (on both sides). In fact, I'm pretty sure that the reduction of the important debate into such simplistic (and essentially pointless) viewpoints is entirely deliberate, as it plays quite well into the reactionaries that would rather maintain the status quo.

Calling for the 'Jena 6' (a silly title in itself) to be simply released is, of course, absurd. However, calling for a fair trial seems to have some justification in this case. The main area to address, however, would be the seemingly inherent racism in the community and the fact that such issues have been left unattended for so long.

Either way, as Sollthar noted, my main point in my prior post didn't really have anything to do with that. I was simply warning against sensationalist rhetoric and propaganda in general, as it always surfaces when dealing with this kind of topic.
Posted: Mon, 24th Sep 2007, 5:01pm

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neoglitz

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Tarn wrote:

I was simply warning against sensationalist rhetoric and propaganda in general, as it always surfaces when dealing with this kind of topic.
Funny thing is that is exactly why it is in the public limelight right now in the States.

The point I was attempting to make is simply that I am tired of the one way racism street. Each time something like this occurs, Southerners get painted as racist white people. Overall, we are not, but there are people that still have a backward view that live in the South. However, that problem is a two way street. That is the point of the other article.
Posted: Mon, 24th Sep 2007, 6:55pm

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averagejoe

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Racism is by no means limited to the US or more specifically the Southern states. There are racism based problems in many countries. Each country has had it share if these types of social problems. France had an uprising of sorts in the past few years centering around race/nationality. I don't think anyone is trying to paint the picture that all Southern-US citizens are tobacco chewing, gun tote'in, crossing burn'in meanies. Our nation's past,post Reconstruction era has been highlighted with racial issues on and off. Again, it has not always been the southern states. Indiana at one point was the "capital" of the Ku Klux Klan for the early parts of the 20th centruy. That culture of hate permiated many states and communities. Open segregation just lasted the longest in the Southern US.
Posted: Mon, 24th Sep 2007, 8:02pm

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CX3

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Neoglitz, you need to stop acting like you know "all" on the subject of racism in the US.

The rest of the World has moved on past racism in most instances, but the South has not. The issue is only re-ignited when this type of thing happens.
That's a pretty ignorant thing to say for someone who "understands" most all about racism in the US. I don't understand how you can say to others..

I don't really care if you agree with me or not, but unless you have lived here in the South you would not know what I am talking about.
Come on... quit trying to win your argument with a one-sided statement like that. What's the point of reading the article you posted?? By the time we're done reading it, we'll still all not be from the south so obviously we still don't know anything thus what do we get out of the article? Or is that article the key to understanding what you are talking about? I'm confused.

Nobody is saying that racism doesn't happen to whites or any other race besides blacks so I don't understand why you we're trying to make that point in the first place. We're talking about the Jena 6 topic, not something else. Trying to justify racist incident with another is pretty stupid. Quit acting like you know all and nobody else will understand. The fact that you would say such a thing shows us that its probably "you" who doesn't understand.

Also, Averagejoe said...

When it comes down to it,such circumstances are not racially driven it is driven by a personal choice to hurt someone else to get what they want. The nooses and the fight in Jena are the same thing. People choose to do wrong.

Seriously...? I highly doubt the white kids would hang a noose in a tree to hurt their white friends as well. That makes no sense.


Anyways, about the Jena 6 situation, I think the kids should get the same treatment that the previous kids in that situation got. Nothing more, nothing less. But you can't let white kids off the hook with giving them a year sentence and then later down the road, completely screw over the black ones. That just shouts racist. If the white kids had gotten the same treatment as the blacks, I don't think the issue would be as big as it is, but the fact that they are changing the way they discipline for the black students is beyond me. Life can be fair at times, its just that some people can choose not to make it so for others.. and thats not fair.
Posted: Mon, 24th Sep 2007, 8:51pm

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neoglitz

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CX3 you have obviously misread my statements to gather that type of opinion regarding what I said or what you think I said. Never, did I say the event was justified. Never.
Posted: Mon, 24th Sep 2007, 9:17pm

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CX3

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If thats all you got out of what I said then you misread.. or just plain didn't read anything I said.
Posted: Mon, 24th Sep 2007, 9:37pm

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neoglitz

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CX3
You truly believe that the bearing of an offensive symbol and the beating a person deserve the same treatment? You have to be kidding me right? That is why I think you have misread my statements, because you cannot possibly justify the two issues with the same punishment.

As for the rest, I never said I was trying to win an argument. I gave an opinion. My opinion. As such, you can take it or leave it. It does not matter. The sun will rise tomorrow and life will go on. No one should take personal issue with what I said, because it is not meant to be derogatory toward anyone.
Posted: Mon, 24th Sep 2007, 10:01pm

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Evman

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I agree mostly with Waser. And a fair bit with Ben as well. Both sides are wrong.

What annoys me are people who wear black and jump to the Jena 6's defense, simply so they can avoid the label "racist".

Do they deserve to be punished? Of course.

Of Second Degree Murder? No.

Is there an obvious racial problem there? Yes.

Does that exempt them from assaulting that kid? No.


Both sides are both right and wrong at the same time, which is why this is such a hard topic to declare a "side" to.
Posted: Mon, 24th Sep 2007, 10:05pm

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Simon K Jones

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neoglitz wrote:

CX3
You truly believe that.....
No, I'm pretty sure that's not at all what CX3 was saying. I'd recommend re-reading his posts. smile
Posted: Mon, 24th Sep 2007, 10:11pm

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neoglitz

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CX3 wrote:

If the white kids had gotten the same treatment as the blacks, I don't think the issue would be as big as it is, but the fact that they are changing the way they discipline for the black students is beyond me.
Please explain. Maybe further explanation would resolve that statement.
Posted: Tue, 25th Sep 2007, 12:16am

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ben3308

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CX3 wrote:

But you can't let white kids off the hook with giving them a year sentence and then later down the road, completely screw over the black ones. That just shouts racist.
While it may shout racist favoritism towards whites, it doesn't condone relinquishing the severity of the law towards perpetrators in general; in this case the 'Jena Six'.

The law stands to punish those who commit crimes. The sentencing of the black kids of aggravated assault is a fair sentence regarding what they did. You can't be let off the hook for beating someone to unconsciousness, especially if you have already been sentenced as such.

What sentence the white kids got is irrelevant in sentencing the blacks kids. The law is not comparative, and it never should be. When you choose to break the law, you are going against the law. Not the other kids who broke it towards you, not the judge or jury who convicted you, but the law itself. As such, it is ridiculous to argue that the 'Jena Six' get the same treatment as the white kids, when the white kids were given unjust treatment in the first place.

Both parties are guilty, so why do we insist upon freedom at both ends? Both groups should be imprisoned. They committed crimes, and that's the social contract you make when you make the choice to live in America and follow its rules.

Analogically, if seven Mexican guys and three white guys break out of a high security prison, and the search team devotes 10% of their resources towards finding the whites and 90% towards finding the Mexicans (purely because they're racist), and the whites get away, does this warrant lowering the resources put towards the Mexicans to 10%, simply to be fair racially? Of course not. You devote equal resources to both, not none to either.

The law is not comparative. I'll keep saying this over and over again until it makes any sense.

For those of you on Facebook, you're free to see what I've said in my thread, as I think it holds some importance. Read through the whole thing if you're actually going to read it, some people's views are quite interesting.

http://hs.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=2870190990&topic=3490

Also, upon receiving much hate mail on Facebook (all from apparently under-educated, ill-grammar African-Americans, which is sad, as I've nothing against them) calling me 'u ignorant f*ck' (in regard to me recognizing that there's a racist double standard in the US. Apparently even acknowledging racism exists makes me ignorant, as I've not known what it's like to be black), 'slavedriver', and many, many more.

It's pathetic how some people will wave their race/nationality/religion high on a flag of martyrdom, claiming to seek justice but really only searching for supremacy. It's because of things like this we have the Religious Right condemning its own churches, and Affirmative Action doing to Anglos what it sought to prevent with African-Americans.

Sad world we live in today, I tell you.
Posted: Tue, 25th Sep 2007, 12:29am

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CX3

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Wow ha... okay I wasn't talking about the white kids with their nooses in the tree. I was talking about the similar incident that happened earlier where the roles were reversed. When the white kids beat up the black kids and had charges that weren't as server as the ones given to the Jena 6 students. All I'm saying is judge people the same. The unfair treatment is what makes it appear as racism.

My Point: Lower the jail sentences for the kids.


EDIT: After thinking about it some more.. I've seen some pretty serious high school fights with some kids in worse condition (physically) and they haven't been taken to the measure of whats going on with Jena 6. The whole thing is pretty stupid really. The fact that its being taken this far is crazy. Give the kids a fine, sentence, community service, whatever but they shouldn't go to jail for most of their life. Thats ridiculous, nobody was killed.
Posted: Tue, 25th Sep 2007, 12:42am

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ben3308

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Chris, I'm talking about the nooses and the assault by the white kids earlier.

Unfortunately, in the case of the six-on-one beating at the school, the boy's family saw fit to press charges, meaning the Jena Six are opt to be punished by the full severity of the law.

Instead of lowering the charges for these young men, let us reconsider and even heighten those of the white students. If your assault someone, that's assault. There are sentences in place that define the maximum punishments for what an aggravated assault and battery entails. If the Jena Six fit those definitions, then that's what they should be able to suffer from.
Posted: Tue, 25th Sep 2007, 12:51am

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CX3

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There are sentences in place that define the maximum punishments for what an aggravated assault and battery entails.
Yea but they obviously aren't always given out the same. So whats to be done about that?
Posted: Tue, 25th Sep 2007, 12:58am

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Serpent

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The fact that they were charged with attempted murder is ridiculous. Also, I think this should be more of a legal issue than a racial one. I'm not saying racism wasn't involved, but the United States justice system scares the hell out of me. 22 years for their crime in which the victim spent less than a day in a hospital and attended a party that night is ridiculous. I think the "Jena 6" should go to prison for their crime, but seriously, 22 years? Maybe 1 or 2. The kid who hung the nooses from the tree should have been expelled or something. Technically what he did wasn't illegal, but at my school kids get worse sentences for stuff much less worse than this display. I think it's great that people are protesting it, but I think they need to be more precise about their intentions and the turnout should be more than 99% black in an area where the majority of the population is white. I'd be protesting if I lived there (though I would never live there...)
Posted: Tue, 25th Sep 2007, 1:10am

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CX3

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Serpent wrote:

The fact that they were charged with attempted murder is ridiculous. Also, I think this should be more of a legal issue than a racial one. I'm not saying racism wasn't involved, but the United States justice system scares the hell out of me. 22 years for their crime in which the victim spent less than a day in a hospital and attended a party that night is ridiculous. I think the "Jena 6" should go to prison for their crime, but seriously, 22 years? Maybe 1 or 2. The kid who hung the nooses from the tree should have been expelled or something. Technically what he did wasn't illegal, but at my school kids get worse sentences for stuff much less worse than this display. I think it's great that people are protesting it, but I think they need to be more precise about their intentions and the turnout should be more than 99% black in an area where the majority of the population is white. I'd be protesting if I lived there (though I would never live there...)
Agreed.
Posted: Tue, 25th Sep 2007, 1:47am

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Fill

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I'll only say a few things. My school is about 95% white. Blacks and whites there get along. Considering I'm the "whitest black kid you'll ever meet", I must say I've heard my share of racial jokes. Nothing, however, has come close to this. I mean, seeing things like this honestly makes me sick. It's not the 60s anymore. Kids shouldn't be getting into fights because of race. Fighting a guy because he's black is as useful as laughing at a mentally disabled kid. It's pointless.

On the flipside, I get utterly disgusted when people use their race to win a case in court. Hell, I'm just disgusted at the things that can be ruled in courts now a days. It's possible to get away with murder. Also, 22 years? A man raped a child in Ohio and got 13 years. I think America needs to revise the court system a bit, imo.

My two cents.

EDIT: Neoglitz, most of the world is still stuck on racism. Take England for example. Many Muslims think they're being treated unfairly by police because of their heritage. Australia has had problems with racism in schools. The list goes on. It's a global problem.
Posted: Tue, 25th Sep 2007, 3:09am

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neoglitz

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Fill thanks for the comments on the rest of the world. I was under the impression that most of this type of behavior remains stuck in the South. And CX3 thanks for clearing that up. Whoops.

Just for insight, to the law, criminal charges and sentencing, etc., etc. LA is the only State in the Union that has its laws based on French common law as opposed to the rest of the states based on British common law. Since criminal sentencing can vary widely and wildly from state to state, many factors can come into play.

Sentencing can be very statutory. For example, two people who commit the same crime can get very different sentences due to factors such as: the facts of the crime, the witnesses, credibility of witnesses and the accused and the big kicker the accused's criminal history. This can make things vary greatly. So without knowing those facts, it is really difficult to know what is a fair sentence or not.
Posted: Tue, 25th Sep 2007, 8:26am

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Simon K Jones

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ben3308 wrote:

The law is not comparative.
Of course it is. The only way law can function is if it is applied universally and fairly. Comparison is vital to ensure that all are treated fairly, otherwise the system breaks down - as seen in Jena at the moment.

Sure, specific cases aren't compared during the trial process, but in terms of the judgment and punishment assigned, the rules need to be firmly in place. It all needs to be relative, otherwise it would lead to absurd situations whereby the same crime could result in 6 months community service or 50 years in jail, depending on the mood of the judge.

So, yes, of course it's comparative. It's specifically when it isn't that problems arise.
Posted: Tue, 25th Sep 2007, 10:07am

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Bryce007

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22 years? Are they kidding?

I didn't know the proposed sentence was so damn long.


Jeez... I'd say 2 years MAX for that. (The kid went to a party the same night? maybe two years is even abit much)


I bet the white kid was a girlyman.
Posted: Tue, 25th Sep 2007, 1:07pm

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Atom

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Bryce007 wrote:

(The kid went to a party the same night? maybe two years is even abit much)
I'm sick of people saying this just because they heard it from someone. For the record, the kid reluctantly went to a private ring ceremony, and only because it was an important family tradition. He wasn't just 'fine' after that, either. He's had recurring migraines and it was noted he was still aching severely and pretty shook up at the ceremony.

We see it all the time. People don't miss important end-of-highschool stuff. If I was in a car accident with the same injuries, it doesn't mean they should be treated any less severe because I attend graduation the next day.

It's an important event to him, not some leisurely party!
Posted: Tue, 25th Sep 2007, 3:27pm

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jmax

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The thing that bothers me most with this situation is that you can't just point your finger at any one person. A cut and dry, black and white (no pun intended) situation is a lot easier to judge. But here, this high school, town, and general community seems to be a large victim of society and ignorance, not evil. Aristotle once said that "ignorace is the only true evil", but I think the big problem here is that greater intervention hadn't been implimented until the situation escalated to this point. The Jena Six are in an avoidable plight. The schoolboard, local parents, and other students are to blame for letting things go this far. The school and surrounding community was in dissarray, and it should have been brought to attention how out-of-hand things were before someone was beat unconcious. But it always takes violence to wake us up.
Posted: Tue, 25th Sep 2007, 4:11pm

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CX3

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For the record, the kid reluctantly went to a private ring ceremony, and only because it was an important family tradition. He wasn't just 'fine' after that, either. He's had recurring migraines and it was noted he was still aching severely and pretty shook up at the ceremony.
Ohhh comeee onnnnn man. A headache and some soreness???? Give me a break. He might as well had been playing some tackle football or rugby. The kid is fine. 22 years is not.
Posted: Tue, 25th Sep 2007, 6:17pm

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ben3308

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Chris, consider my comments towards someone who messaged me on Facebook with similar complaints. I hate to say some don't know the unbiased 'white' side of these events, but I ask that you bear with me and consider this point of view:

Giovanni J
___

Dont be so naive and eat up the media's rendition of the story. If u were beaten unconscious would u attend a school function later that day? A school fight gets u 4 dayz in jail at most. not years. How can u not see te wrong in this?

___

Ben Adams

A 'school fight' should not have a double-standard or different consideration for a fight that happens anywhere else. Laws are in place that prohibit violent behavior- assault included- and breaking such laws implies that the prescribed punishment be given.

The beaten student's outcome is irrelevant, as punishment of perpetration should not be enforced only when he who is wronged has suffered greatly. If you were to shoot me with a gun in the heart, yet I happened to live from having enflamed arteries, and I was able to go to a football game the same night, would that change the fact that you shot me? No, it would not.

A crime is a crime, regardless of whether or not one fully meant to commit it. If the sentencing for assault is so wrong, then why are we not adamant to amend these laws before such convictions happen? The answer is not only that we are a lazy, helpless generation, but that we attempt to make the ends justify the means only when it suits us. This is pathetic.

I'll agree maybe beating someone up doesn't justify 20 years. But breaking a law that SAYS beating someone up justifies 20 years- and knowing full well that you're breaking said law- is something I have no remorse for. If the law has always been an issue, attempts at change should have been made long ago.

I'm not naive, just didactic in my reasoning. If you know the law, and you break it, you suffer the consequences. Were the scenario different, had the white kid and his buddies attacked the 'Six' before they beat the kid coming out of the gym, then I'd sympathize. But these six people sought premeditation and waited for the white kid to come out of his class before proceeding to beat him.

That's not a fight, Giovanni. That's an aggravated assault. There's a succinct difference here.
Posted: Tue, 25th Sep 2007, 6:41pm

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neoglitz

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Tarn wrote:


Sure, specific cases aren't compared during the trial process, but in terms of the judgment and punishment assigned, the rules need to be firmly in place. It all needs to be relative, otherwise it would lead to absurd situations whereby the same crime could result in 6 months community service or 50 years in jail, depending on the mood of the judge.
Yes and No.

On specific trials only the facts as to that situation should typically be an issue. Not the past. In other words, the jury should only consider the facts of the case at bar in determining guilt or innocence. This is the only fair way.

However, once a person is convicted the sentencing phase of the trial can and must considered past convictions of the person. If not, you could have a person convicted of murder serving a 20 year sentence and another person convicted of murder for the tenth time serving a twenty year sentence. Where is the justice in that?

The mood of the Judge.... oh man... the stories I could tell about that. Well, that is indeed the TRUTH Tarn... bullseye. And that is exactly why I retired as a litigator and moved to the corporate office gig. Because honestly, what is the need of the best argument in the world before a Judge if they don't care or listen anyway right?
Posted: Tue, 25th Sep 2007, 6:48pm

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jmax

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The whole justice aspect is a touchy subject, but I feel it distracts people from the real social issues and questionable decision-making on the part of the community. And the lack of ability to prevent this whole scene is what I find just as disturbing as the judicial incompetance and bias.
Posted: Tue, 25th Sep 2007, 8:06pm

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sfbmovieco

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If I were to rape a girl she'd just have vaginal soreness right CX3? No big deal.

That's how ridiculous your argument sounds to me. I was severely harassed in my high school by black students and that alone took me time to get over mentally. Partially due to the thought they may do it again and partially because it just takes time regardless of who I was harassed by. I had and still have many black friends. I was one of two white kids on my jr. high and high school basketball teams for six years. I am very grateful for all the bus rides and hotel trips we took because it gave me a better understanding of how they felt on issues and what they brought to the melting pot of culture...

The main defendant was already convicted by a jury. I don't see how the judge had any right to overturn the case. The kid had a wrap sheet a mile long, including violent behavoir. This DOES play a part in sentencing. Minors are constantly being tried as adults here in the US. Why make an exception? The supposed "civil rights" leaders really have no clue on how to choose their battles. Yeah, let's protest for 6 thugs. How about going out and finding worthy causes where racism exists where you may not get a wad of cash put in your back pocket at the same time. Jessie Jackson truly makes me sick.

What the students did hanging nooses was deplorable. They should have been expelled, and gone to counseling at the least. But they want them tried for hate crimes? Hate crime laws are a major violation of not only the 10th amendment but of the 1st amendment. How long before taking a religious view on an issue is deemed such that it can possibly incite hate? Anyways, that's another topic for another day.

Lastly, Bryce, I find your comment calling the white kid a 'girlyman' totally out of line. Try having 6 people of any race gang up on you and beat you until you are unconscious. This is similar to the line Michael Moore used, saying if there were more black passengers in the plane then the terrorists would of been taken down.

It's all very troubling really...When you consider what seems to be this stew of hate in America. I'm half Irish. Does that mean I hold a lifelong grudge against the English for starving 'our' people. Look at the Jews. If anyone can complain and be looking for a little payback, you'd think it would be them.

EDIT: Everyone gets treated unfairly. Two words: Duke Lacrosse.
Posted: Tue, 25th Sep 2007, 8:25pm

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Fill

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sfbmovieco wrote:

What the students did hanging nooses was deplorable. They should have been expelled, and gone to counseling at the least. But they want them tried for hate crimes? Hate crime laws are a major violation of not only the 10th amendment but of the 1st amendment.
Wait, wait. It is perfectly legal to be racist in the United States, however, if you start putting nooses up on trees, that's a completely different situation. I would almost call that a threat. Sure, anyone could argue, "it's just rope on a tree", but look deeper into the situation. Lynching used to be a big problem in the South. Basically those nooses mean, "It's not over yet." At least that's the impression I get from it.

EDIT: Honestly I loled at Bryce's girlyman comment.
Posted: Tue, 25th Sep 2007, 8:31pm

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sfbmovieco

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I don't know where you and I disagree Fill. I believe the nooses was very wrong and should be punishable by the law and that they should have been expelled. I have a problem with hate crime laws.
Posted: Wed, 26th Sep 2007, 12:14am

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doppelganger

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Well I think its all kinda stupid, I mean it was started because some black kids sat under a "only white" tree... what? Thats the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

White- "Hey man ya'll sat under our tree, we're gonna threaten you now!"

(White kids go hang some nooses from trees)

Black- " Oh! its on now!"

(They beat the crap out of some white kid)

The white kids did start it with racial stuff, but the black kids broke the law. Now the attempted murder... I wouldnt say so unless he was in a coma or near death or something.

The whites should get punished by law
The blacks should get punished by law

But not equally... the blacks beat a boy unconscious

To me there all pretty stupid though...

Last edited Wed, 26th Sep 2007, 11:26am; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Wed, 26th Sep 2007, 12:56am

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Atom

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George Bush doesn't care about black people.
Posted: Wed, 26th Sep 2007, 3:58am

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neoglitz

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Wha Up Kenya!
Posted: Wed, 26th Sep 2007, 4:00am

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Serpent

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RebornProductions wrote:

The white kids did start it with racial stuff, but the black kids broke the law. Now the attempted murder... I wouldnt say so unless they had guns, knives, etc.
Erm... I agree that it wasn't attempted murder in this case (or the kid would be dead...) But the other thing you said is one of the most naive statements I have ever heard. A single person can kill a man with his bare hands. 6 men would have no trouble doing it if they really wanted to. There are so many ways to do it, but choking should have at least come to mind when you typed that up, I'm sure it just crossed your mind though and I hope you don't actually believe weapons have to be involved to consider that.

ben3308 wrote:

A crime is a crime, regardless of whether or not one fully meant to commit it. If the sentencing for assault is so wrong, then why are we not adamant to amend these laws before such convictions happen? The answer is not only that we are a lazy, helpless generation, but that we attempt to make the ends justify the means only when it suits us. This is pathetic.
I know you are speaking generally, but don't say "we" and speak for the people of this day and age. I hate the current legal system here and I'd love to protest the death penalty. But you have to dedicate your life to something like that to make a major difference (politicians have that kind of power). Though when I get older and go to college, I would be more than willing to organize and participate in protests about the law. That certainly doesn't mean I'm lazy. This is something I feel very passionate about and take a bit of offense to that statement but I know you didn't mean it the way I heard it, I just wanted to get that out there.

So my view still stands: 22 years = ridiculous. What sfbmovieco said in his second to last post was very interesting and I completely agree that some people are going about the protest kind of ill-informed about what they should be protesting. But I still hate the possible sentence, it sickens me.
Posted: Wed, 26th Sep 2007, 5:30am

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sfbmovieco

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Serpent, I really don't think 22 years is ridiculous for someone who commited battery, was on probation, was convicted for battery again and also convicted of 2 counts of criminal damage. And then he gangs up with five other students and beats a lone student into unconsciousness. I guess you wouldn't want to live under California's three strike law Serpent.

From wiki:

Among those in attendance were civil rights activists Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, and Martin Luther King III,[46] rappers Mos Def[47] and Salt-n-Pepa, and New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin.[48] Rapper-actor Ice Cube, who also attended,[49] funded buses to shuttle protesters from California.[50] Darryl Hunt, an African-American who was wrongfully convicted of the rape and murder of a young white newspaper reporter in 1984, was scheduled to be a keynote speaker.[51]


Where were these morons when the Duke Lacrosse team was being wrongfully tried? Oh yeah, they had already convicted them in their heads. No statements saying, 'oops , our bad' no apologies for demonizing students. This is truly outrageous.
Posted: Wed, 26th Sep 2007, 8:23am

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Simon K Jones

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There seems to be some confusion over the 'fairness' and 'equal justice' debate.

It's not about comparing the noose-tree and the beating. Those aren't the two things being compared here.

As I understand it, previously there had been a similar beating, but with the skin colours reversed - bunch of white kids beating up a black kid. The white kids ended up with a very lenient sentence (or an appropriate sentence, if you like).

The controversy is specifically due to the new trial, which have extremely similar circumstances, resulting in the black kids suddenly getting....22 years.

It's the inequality and dubious racial attitudes of the judge and local authorities that are at the heart of the debate - as I understand it.
Posted: Wed, 26th Sep 2007, 11:25am

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doppelganger

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Serpent wrote:


I'm sure it just crossed your mind though and I hope you don't actually believe weapons have to be involved to consider that.
Oh yeah thanks for catching that, I probably just made my self look like a complete idiot...
Posted: Wed, 26th Sep 2007, 5:26pm

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Atom

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Tarn wrote:

As I understand it, previously there had been a similar beating, but with the skin colours reversed - bunch of white kids beating up a black kid. The white kids ended up with a very lenient sentence (or an appropriate sentence, if you like).

The controversy is specifically due to the new trial, which have extremely similar circumstances, resulting in the black kids suddenly getting....22 years.
First off, I'm not sure you have your specifics down on that, but I know it's of that general gist. I think the paramount thing to see here is that by saying "free" the Jena 6, criminals, you're equalizing the playing-field, so to speak, by not punishing anyone fairly at all.

The answer is to deal with this Jena 6 case like it should be, as what kind of crime it is, and look at the other case separately. The answer, if the same thing happened verbatim to the Jena 6 case, is to punish the white kids to the same extent of the law as the black kids.

Not "free" and reserve all punishment from both parties because one got off the hook. That's just stupid, and makes me irritated at the African-American and Anglo communities who support the cause under "equality". "Justice" is more important in my eyes. And usually, justice includes equality.
Posted: Wed, 26th Sep 2007, 5:32pm

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Sollthar

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Can anyone point me to any post in this thread where anyone has ever said the Jena six should be set free? Or that they should not be punished?

Either my english is far less good then I thought, or you guys respond to stuff no one has said here...
How very confusing.
Posted: Wed, 26th Sep 2007, 7:40pm

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Serpent

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Sollthar wrote:

Can anyone point me to any post in this thread where anyone has ever said the Jena six should be set free? Or that they should not be punished?

Either my english is far less good then I thought, or you guys respond to stuff no one has said here...
How very confusing.
I bet if anyone referenced that they were referring to some of the protesters. That's just my guess, even though it definitely looked differently.
Posted: Wed, 26th Sep 2007, 10:03pm

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sfbmovieco

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Sollthar, watch on the news. Most of the protesters have 'Free Jena 6' posters.

Tarn, do you have any links to information on any of the beatings of the black students by whites? I'd be interested to read them.
Posted: Wed, 26th Sep 2007, 11:24pm

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Serpent

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sfbmovieco wrote:

Serpent, I really don't think 22 years is ridiculous for someone who commited battery, was on probation, was convicted for battery again and also convicted of 2 counts of criminal damage. And then he gangs up with five other students and beats a lone student into unconsciousness. I guess you wouldn't want to live under California's three strike law Serpent.
I do think that 22 years is too long, even for the things you listed. I am not a criminal, so I don't care if I lived under that system. I simply have a different view of our legal system and think people without mental issues (sociopath, etc.) should be studied and if possible, helped. It would cost a lot, I'm fully aware of that and I think 1st degree murderers and serial killers etc. should be in prison for life. 22 years is longer than I have been alive and I think it doesn't take that long to learn your lesson and then some. I am not trying to change your mind, this is just how I feel and I want to re-emphasize that.

I hope your wiki quote wasn't referencing me or my post because I completely agree with your followup.
Posted: Thu, 27th Sep 2007, 8:50pm

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neoglitz

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Sollthar wrote:

Can anyone point me to any post in this thread where anyone has ever said the Jena six should be set free? Or that they should not be punished?
Gladly point you to this...
http://www.freethejena6.org/

I think that is pretty clear. biggrin
Posted: Thu, 27th Sep 2007, 9:06pm

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Sollthar

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sfbmovieco wrote:

Sollthar, watch on the news. Most of the protesters have 'Free Jena 6' posters.

neoglitz wrote:

Gladly point you to this...
http://www.freethejena6.org/
I've asked for a post in this thread and you point to another website or the news... Are we slightly reading impaired lately? smile

I think we can all agree that people who beat someone else unconscious should be punished for that - though some seem to think 22 years is quite harsh, me included. And we can all agree that Ben appears to know little about how the US law works too. wink

The main point though is, from what I've read: This whole thing appears to be unfair and indeed racially motivated, at least judging by the wikipedia article and the rather odd lack of punishment for the acts that lead to this unfortunate outcome. And since obviously, racial issues are still pretty high in the US, emotional reactions, sensational writing in capitals or wrong explanations of law should be kept to a minimum - that goes for both sides and includes an unjustified call for freeing people that have attacked someone else 6 to 1, which is just as emotional.

That's pretty much the summary of the last pages I think. smile