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Lightsabers under water?

Posted: Thu, 20th Jun 2002, 12:47am

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Namoreh

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Me and several friends are working on a rather long star wars movie (i've got most of the script written, and it seems like it will take over an hour), but I really wanted one fight to be a big lightsaber fight and the fighters end up falling into a body of water below, but i was wondering, how would a lightsaber act under water? would it still work, but create bubbles everywhere around the blade (boiling the water immediately around the blade)? Also i created a really cool looking lightsaber for myself (I play a sith in the movie), but my digital camera isnt working at the moment.

Will
Posted: Thu, 20th Jun 2002, 12:58am

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jarar1

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It depends, if you go with the underwater stuff, yeah, I would imagine you'd have a bar of steam and bubbles, with a glow at the center.

But, there was a deleted scene from Episode i, where Obi-Wan got his lightsabre wet and it wouldn't work (this is why he's running from the droids when he meets up with Qui-Gon and Jar-jar)
Posted: Thu, 20th Jun 2002, 1:33am

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jamie556

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now that, i did not know. the steam/bubbles would be a must have for it. now would the be whacking each other in the water or just someguy fall and die(or somthin)
Posted: Thu, 20th Jun 2002, 1:41am

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averagejoe

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Ok, I hate to get this started but I swear remembering somewhere that sabers didn't give off actual heat... jarjar1 good call.. that scene was in the comic adaptation of EPI and if I remember right it died because Obi wan forgot to turn off the power. So it shorted out.

When it comes down to it, it is your movie do what you want to do. Let the fanboy zealots complain. You want sabers in the water do sabers in the water biggrin

However bubbling steam and stuff would be an orginal touch to your flick. We have seen sabers that hiss and spark when rain hits them. LIA+ plugin for Photoshop has a saber blade made just for fighting in the rain. It has all these glowing sparks that give the illusion water is reacting with the "surface" of the blade. Rogue428's "Sith Apocalypse" flick had a final duel in the rain. He used the LIA+ plugin. Hell maybe a saber in the rain would be a cool addition to the plugins for dv2...

Last edited Thu, 20th Jun 2002, 2:19am; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Thu, 20th Jun 2002, 1:49am

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Namoreh

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Thanks everyone, I'm going to go ahead and have them fighting in the water, I though it would be pretty cool, especially how in the film it would show how we have to focus on both swimming and fighting, if anybody complains ill just say me and david(the person I'll be dueling) just have super-lightsabers that withstand water smile .


Thanks for the replies,
Will
Posted: Thu, 20th Jun 2002, 2:48am

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Gibs

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How are you going to film you and your friend under water? I mean, I know it sounds like a dumb question, redface but are you going to like hold your breath, duck under, hit your lightsabers, and pop back up? It just doesn't seem realistic (but that's probably just me. confused ) Anyway, when you do it, post the underwater battle in the cinema section. It will be cool to watch!
Posted: Thu, 20th Jun 2002, 5:48am

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Namoreh

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I planned on fighting for about 30 seconds at a time, then coming up for air, it's reasonable for the camera angle to change once every thirty seconds or so, in a battle scene. I have yet to choreograph the battle out in my head yet, since I'm filming the movie (for the most part) in order, and the battle with the water is not until closer to the end.

The water battle won't be too long, probably 1 1/2 or 2 minutes, but it's part of a large battle, I'd say the most important battle of the movie, especially since at the beginning of the movie, me and David will be best of friends...

Actually I intended to make a trailer once I got more of the movie filmed and putting it up in the cinema section. At the moment most of it is still in script, although some scenes have been filmed, and some more things have been set up and are ready to be filmed.

Will
Posted: Thu, 20th Jun 2002, 6:16am

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Animaster

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In episode 2, didn't obi-wan's lightsaber work perfectly in rain?
Posted: Thu, 20th Jun 2002, 10:39am

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Simon K Jones

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Animaster, maybe that's why they cut that scene from episode 1 - they realised that it was a bit silly if lightsabers couldn't work in wet conditions, given how Jedi have to go scooting off round the galaxy all the time, presumably also to wet planets like Kamino.
Posted: Thu, 20th Jun 2002, 11:29am

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Hobbes

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In the game Jedi knight 2 the saber works in rain, but turns itself off under water.
Posted: Thu, 20th Jun 2002, 1:20pm

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Hajiku_Flip

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Too add on to Ani's post, not only did it work in the rain, it didn't spark or boil or anything. Just stayed the same ol' lighstaber.
Posted: Thu, 20th Jun 2002, 3:34pm

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jarar1

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Too add on to Ani's post, not only did it work in the rain, it didn't spark or boil or anything. Just stayed the same ol' lighstaber.
Yeah, I thought that was a missed opprotunity for a neat little effect, cause if anyone was going to do it right, it'd be ILM.
Posted: Thu, 20th Jun 2002, 3:38pm

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Kid

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Didn't it make little hisses now and then as rain hit it in the movie?
Posted: Thu, 20th Jun 2002, 3:39pm

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TMM

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i have an idea...

technically as lightsabres produce no heat, there shouldn't be bubbles or sparks etc...

but as lightsabres are just LIGHT, the water would pass through them. But what does water do to light, it refracts it, which means underwater a lightsabre would surely be a curve, or bent, or summit...

similar to when u shine light into a prism in science, the light gets bent...
Posted: Thu, 20th Jun 2002, 3:42pm

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Hajiku_Flip

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Oooo that'd be tricky to fight with. I wonder if that's a course in Jedi 101 lol I think of lightsabers as lasers. Isn't that what they are? A giant laser pointer with uh, a beam? Okay I guess they aren't laser pointers..but TMM might be on to something. And that woulda been hella cool to see them hiss in EP2, but it would of taken alot of work to make look good.
Posted: Thu, 20th Jun 2002, 3:45pm

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Kid

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TMM wrote:

technically as lightsabres produce no heat, there shouldn't be bubbles or sparks etc...
They melted a door in episode 1, if they just heat things that are in contact with them then surely they heat the water. Not giving off heat in air is a little dubious too. smile
Posted: Thu, 20th Jun 2002, 3:47pm

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TMM

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well i was just working off the fact averagejoe said he didn't think they produced heat, and i didn't think they did either...

didn't really think about when qui gonn was melting that door, but still they should bubble and refract, maybe......... confused
Posted: Thu, 20th Jun 2002, 4:46pm

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Namoreh

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I'd say they definitely produce heat, if the water could just go through them without being affected, so could anything else (like a human arm) and they would be pointless. hmmmm, I'm not sure how I could make the lightsabers bend and refract in the water.
Posted: Thu, 20th Jun 2002, 6:06pm

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jarar1

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I think the lightsabres have to generat some intense heat, at least at the very core of the blade. The heat may not radiate enough to actually burn your hand or whatnot, but there are a number of examples of heat from a lightsabre.

The most numerouse examples are in the varied severed limbs in the movies. The wounds are all cauterized. I suppose this could by purely electrical, but then useing them in the water would fry the user, so I still go with heat.

The other main example is Qui-Gon melting the door on the Trade Federation ship with his lightsabre. Not even an electrical reaction to the door would cause melting in that way. Seems hot to me.
Posted: Thu, 20th Jun 2002, 6:18pm

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Crossfire

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Just to throw in my 2 cents, lightsabers most definitely give off heat. It's not very radiant, but at the blade or maybe just the core they generate a great deal of heat. In anything canon in the Star Wars genre, lightsabers generate enough heat to instantly cauterize a wound or melt through metal.

Now, there's nothing saying this film has to be canon!

Cross.
Posted: Thu, 20th Jun 2002, 6:31pm

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raider

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there are several different types of lasers - some emit heat which would boil water, some are merely light at low wavelengths. Search laser at howstuffworks.com - interesting stuff. It seems Qui-gon's saber is CO2 which can melt steel because of the wavelength being in the infrared spectrum.
Posted: Thu, 20th Jun 2002, 6:44pm

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TMM

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see, according to the star wars fact file, which is a series of mags that r sold in england, lightsabres produce no actual heat...

it is pure energy, not producing heat but cos it is energy, it can melt stuff etc...

maybe cos it is physically impossible, that is y it makes no sense...

but if u think about it, if the lightsword produced a lot of heat, what's stopping it melting the handle???
Posted: Thu, 20th Jun 2002, 6:51pm

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Blakestone

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If a lightsaber were a light beam it would go on untill something stops it. And since we can't see anything stoping it in the movies it's not a light beam.

Since lightsabers are not real and made up for the movies, you should make it do whatever you want it to.
Posted: Thu, 20th Jun 2002, 7:03pm

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Namoreh

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Well, if the energy will melt steel, it'll boil water so heat or not, I need the bubbles.
On another note, how do you like my sith lightsaber, it's relatively simple, but black and red with a little metallic thing sticking out where the blade will come out. http://homepage.mac.com/guilder/blade.jpg
NOTE: the picture should be much brighter now.

Last edited Thu, 20th Jun 2002, 11:46pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Thu, 20th Jun 2002, 7:08pm

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Hajiku_Flip

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I think TMM brought up a good point about what stops it from melting the handle? I think we've all come to the conclusion that it's impossible to figure out how it works, since it's up to the imagination of George Lucas. He's the only person that would know, and to tell you the truth, I doubt he even knows for sure smile
Posted: Thu, 20th Jun 2002, 7:08pm

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TMM

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on mine that image just looks liek a big black rectangle...

u need to light it up a bit...
Posted: Fri, 21st Jun 2002, 4:58pm

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jamie556

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Average Joe said
LIA+ plugin for Photoshop...glowing sparks that give the illusion water is reacting with the 'surface' of the blade
And where might this plug-in be found
Posted: Fri, 21st Jun 2002, 5:38pm

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averagejoe

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Oops my bad guess I should have provided that redface

Lightsaber Ignition Action Plus PLugin for Photoshop (LIA+)

There are a couple of versions in their Downloads section, incase you are using older versions of Photoshop. The files are zipped. It also has some practice jpgs that are production Photos from SW movies. All the jpgs have unrotoed sabers to play with.

Last edited Fri, 21st Jun 2002, 10:11pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Fri, 21st Jun 2002, 9:02pm

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Chrislad

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just a little comment about the lightsaber refraction thing. it would only refract if the lightsaber was part in-part out of the water. Havent read the post fully so it someone has already said this then sorry!
Crs
Posted: Fri, 21st Jun 2002, 9:09pm

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TMM

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no, surely not, cos if u open ur eyes underwater, everything is all kinda wobbly, cos the light relfecting of stuff is being refracted...

isn't it to do with the freedom of the particles ? confused
Posted: Fri, 21st Jun 2002, 10:01pm

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Chrislad

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I know, thats is the camera is out of the water, if the camera is IN the water and the lightsaber is fully in the water then it wouldnt distort in any way. as far as I know. If you open your eyes underwater, everything isnt all wobbly. have a look at the start of Saving Private Ryan or even parts of Castaway to see what I mean.
Crs
Posted: Fri, 21st Jun 2002, 10:24pm

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Namoreh

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When the camera is in the water it wouldn't be wobbly, with goggles, as long as the water's not dirty, you see underwater things as clearly while underwater as you see above water things while above water.


Will
Posted: Fri, 21st Jun 2002, 11:48pm

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averagejoe

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I decided to go to the source and see what starwars.com said about our favorite melee weapon...

Light Sabers: Expanded Universe Version

I went with the expanded universe version because it actually attempts to explain the technical side of how they work...

Both parties are "right"** it does not emitt heat unless... Check out the link to find out twisted



** After all they do not really exist, so who could be exactly correct?
Posted: Sat, 22nd Jun 2002, 2:10am

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jarar1

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Nice work. I guess that pretty much answers it.
Posted: Sat, 22nd Jun 2002, 8:17am

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TMM

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"As a result, a lightsaber only expends power when its blade cuts through something. So efficient is the blade, that it does not radiate heat unless it comes into contact with something."

so in actual fact, it would boil the water like most people have been saying, but aswell, it is just energy like i said, COOL...

well i guess you need a boiling water plug-in then razz razz razz
Posted: Sat, 22nd Jun 2002, 10:42am

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raider

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careful one must be to rule out the actual existence of light sabers - star trek being a prime example. Leonard Nimoy never thought way back he would actually use a small roaming hand sized communicator - now he has a cell phone. There's been successful testing of a tractor beam and teleportation - microscopically, but nevertheless. Who knows what the military has over at A-51... well, I do, but if I told - you know what I'd have to do....
biggrin
Posted: Sat, 22nd Jun 2002, 11:21am

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Kid

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TMM wrote:

"As a result, a lightsaber only expends power when its blade cuts through something. So efficient is the blade, that it does not radiate heat unless it comes into contact with something."
Well that doesn't work because its in contact with the air. Thats how some things give off heat. They really mean when it comes in contact with objects so at what point does something count as an object. Like will it set fire to explosive gases or will they just be ignored like air is. I know that description sounds kind of technical but its not actually possible because air is made of particles too so it is still down to someone to make up how it reacts in any given situation.
Posted: Sat, 22nd Jun 2002, 2:54pm

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Namoreh

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Kid wrote:

Like will it set fire to explosive gases or will they just be ignored like air is.
That'd be a great Jedi-trap, fill a small area with expolsive gas, anyone who lights a lightsaber in the area would be lit up twisted .

I would say by the description given at the site, it would have to be giving off heat, unless by 'something' it meant solid objects, but not water or air,in which case it wouldn't react to the water crazy . or maybe it meant solids and water, so the water would still boil. Anybody know Lucas' e-mail address? we can ask him wink .
Posted: Sat, 22nd Jun 2002, 3:30pm

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jarar1

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How about it gives off heat when it touches matter?

As in solid objects and water, but not nessasarily gas?

And here I thought the debate had been settled....
Posted: Sat, 22nd Jun 2002, 8:00pm

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TMM

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i would of thought in air, there isn't enough particles to effect the blade...

but in a solid or liquid, there is a lot of matter touching the blade, rather than a few particles bouncing off...

so maybe the lightsabre is destroying all the air around it, but cos it is air, the space is being refilled...

and cos it is only destroying itty bitty particles, then it aint giving off enough heat for anyone to feel...
Posted: Mon, 24th Jun 2002, 12:58am

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Blakestone

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That makes sense. But I would think that you would be able to feel a little heat in air because there are still alot of particles in it.