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Vegan?

Posted: Thu, 22nd Nov 2007, 6:45am

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hatsoff2halford

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I always wonder around this time if anyone else is vegan? Everyone says they love Thanksgiving but it's a different story for me!

anyone?
Posted: Thu, 22nd Nov 2007, 2:38pm

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Jabooza

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Is it hard to be vegan? There's no way I could stand it.
Posted: Thu, 22nd Nov 2007, 4:28pm

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hatsoff2halford

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I don't find it hard at all. After becoming vegan I feel way better mentally and physically, so for me, going back to eating animal products would make me feel terrible.
Posted: Fri, 23rd Nov 2007, 7:19am

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Atom

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Let's get the ball rolling on the other side. I started eating meat about 18 years ago, and can't imagine not doing so.

Carnivore?

Although in all honesty I don't ever ever eat beef of really any form. I'll order fish at steakhouses and chicken sandwiches at burger joints. And I'm from Texas, go figure.
Posted: Fri, 23rd Nov 2007, 7:00pm

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Rawree

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I've been vegetarian for about 14 years and it doesn't really affect my life at all to be honest. Don't think I could handle vegan though, too hardcore for me and to be honest. It'd mean giving up far too many things that I like!
Posted: Fri, 23rd Nov 2007, 7:19pm

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Hybrid-Halo

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Atom wrote:

Let's get the ball rolling on the other side. I started eating meat about 18 years ago, and can't imagine not doing so.

Carnivore?
Same here, I started eating meat around 24 years ago though I'm not a Carnivore, that's too hardcore and I would have to give up eating salads - which I quite enjoy. I can't really imagine not being an Omnivore.
Posted: Fri, 23rd Nov 2007, 7:23pm

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Jabooza

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Atom wrote:

I started eating meat about 18 years ago,
Interesting, you started eating meat at the age of -1. smile

Last edited Fri, 23rd Nov 2007, 7:26pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Fri, 23rd Nov 2007, 7:25pm

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Hybrid-Halo

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Jabooza wrote:

Atom wrote:

I started eating meat about 18 years ago,
Interesting, you started eating meat at the age of -1.
He did say 'about' which suggests you're being nit-picky for the sake of it. Go you.

Though in theory, he probably has been ingesting meat on some level for that length of time presuming his mother wasn't one of those wussy vegetarian types.

Oh I didn't! smile
-Hybrid
Posted: Fri, 23rd Nov 2007, 8:19pm

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Rockfilmers

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I will never give red meat up!!! biggrin I don't see how you can stop eating meat. If I did, I think I would die! jk
Posted: Sat, 24th Nov 2007, 9:20am

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Atom

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Jabooza wrote:

Atom wrote:

I started eating meat about 18 years ago,
Interesting, you started eating meat at the age of -1. smile
It'd be closer to minus a few weeks, actually. smile

I can look up my own birthday too, der. tard
Posted: Sat, 24th Nov 2007, 11:52pm

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Aculag

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Who else is a cannibal?
Posted: Sun, 25th Nov 2007, 12:28am

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Atom

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I know this guy a few miles southwest of me named Leatherface that is. Maybe you two know eachother?
Posted: Sun, 25th Nov 2007, 12:38am

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Fill

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I couldn't possibly live without meat. My cousin is a vegetarian, and it drives me insane.

"Me: How can you not eat meat?!
Her: Because, the animals are tortured by it.
*I bang my head on a table*"

I love Jim Gaffigan
Posted: Sun, 25th Nov 2007, 12:53am

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Kid

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How can vegetarians/vegans eat vegetables? They are living beings too!
Posted: Sun, 25th Nov 2007, 12:56am

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Quvoo

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Fill wrote:

I couldn't possibly live without meat. My cousin is a vegetarian, and it drives me insane.

"Me: How can you not eat meat?!
Her: Because, the animals are tortured by it.
*I bang my head on a table*"[/url]
I agree with you wall
Posted: Sun, 25th Nov 2007, 1:15am

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Arktic

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Kid wrote:

How can vegetarians/vegans eat vegetables? They are living beings too!
They're not sentient, they don't exhibit sentient behaviour.

Well, except in your case wink razz
Posted: Sun, 25th Nov 2007, 3:30am

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hatsoff2halford

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For me it wasn't an issue of morals, it was an issue of overall health which convinced me to become vegan. However, moral reasons are starting to drive my decision.
Posted: Sun, 25th Nov 2007, 4:23am

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Pooky

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Arktic wrote:

Kid wrote:

How can vegetarians/vegans eat vegetables? They are living beings too!
They're not sentient, they don't exhibit sentient behaviour.

Well, except in your case wink razz
"Freedom is the right of all sentient beings."
Posted: Sun, 25th Nov 2007, 4:57am

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Evman

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Aculag wrote:

Who else is a cannibal?
Only half.
Posted: Sun, 25th Nov 2007, 5:44am

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Tim L

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"sentient behaviour"
Okay, I'll admit that I had to go running to Wikipedia to find out what "sentient" means.

Old, old joke here, and I don't mean to be insensitive to Vegan/Vegetarian viewpoints, but... "If God didn't want us to eat animals, then why did he make them out of meat?". (rim-shot! hahhh!)

Tim L
Posted: Sun, 25th Nov 2007, 7:00am

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Atom

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Aren't only dolphins, dogs, apes, and humans sentient beings?

And aren't there laws against eating each because of that?
Posted: Sun, 25th Nov 2007, 8:20am

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Coureur de Bois

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Atom wrote:

Aren't only dolphins, dogs, apes, and humans sentient beings?

And aren't there laws against eating each because of that?
That's why instead of opting for the "Dolphin safe" tuna option I usually go for the "Your daily value of dolphin in every bite"

I guess I should pay more attention to these laws.
Posted: Sun, 25th Nov 2007, 9:01am

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ben3308

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Yeah, if I remember correctly, the Museum of Natural History in NY had an expose on sentient thought, and they said it had to include being self-aware, of which dolphins, humans, chimpanzees, and dogs are only capable.
Posted: Sun, 25th Nov 2007, 12:18pm

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Arktic

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No, that'd be sapience or some such.

'Sentience' in and of itself purely refers to the ability to experience different emotional or sensory states.

Wikipedia wrote:

"Sentience refers to possession of sensory organs, the ability to feel or perceive, not necessarily including the faculty of self-awareness. The possession of sapience is not a necessity."
Basically, one argument for vegetarianism based on ethics/morals (and I know there are many others) is that cows, sheep, chicken, pigs et al are capable of experiencing suffering, and therefore to expose them to suffering for our own unnecessary gain is unethical. Whereas vegetables are not capable of experiencing suffering (based on the knowledge that current science affords us), and so it's not unethical to eat them.
Posted: Sun, 25th Nov 2007, 1:38pm

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Rockfilmers

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I can't stand it when people say that they don't eat meat because it's mean. Think about. Look at the lion! It eats meat! If we realy are just another animal like these evolutionists say, then we should eat meat too smile
Posted: Sun, 25th Nov 2007, 2:37pm

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Penguin

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Well just because we're technically animals doesn't mean that we can't be nice to the other ones. We are sentient, which makes us their superiors, so they are at our mercy, and we can avoid causing them suffering by not killing them.

Not that I am a vegetarian mind you, I just understand the logic behind it. I don't know if I could go completely without eating meat.
Posted: Sun, 25th Nov 2007, 3:17pm

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Arktic

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Think about. Look at the lion! It eats meat! If we realy are just another animal like these evolutionists say, then we should eat meat too
True, meat eating is part of nature.

BUT, on the other hand, what other animal mass-produces other species for it's own feeding habits? None.

The process of farming animals for slaughter is not a natural process (in so far as we would consider it 'natural' if a number of other animals also exhibited the same type of behaviour), so it makes any argument about meat eating being natural null and void.

Also, DP hit the nail on the head; one of the things that sets us apart from other animals is that we are able to consider the suffering of lesser creatures, and we understand that it is ethical to seek to minimise the suffering of animals.
Posted: Sun, 25th Nov 2007, 10:19pm

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petet2

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Spot on Artktic. I'm vegetarian because of the horrific abuses of factory farming though have not gone so far as to become vegan.

Rockfilmers wrote:

I can't stand it when people say that they don't eat meat because it's mean. Think about. Look at the lion! It eats meat! If we realy are just another animal like these evolutionists say, then we should eat meat too smile
Yes because all animals eat meat don't they...oh apart from the vast numbers of species that are herbivores.

"Like these evolutionists"? I can't decide whether you are being facetious or are a creationist. If you are a creationist then presumably you have enough biblical knowledge to know that in the beginning God permitted Adam and Eve to eat only plants and it was only after the apple was eaten and original sin committed that God gave permission to eat meat. So vegetarians like me are pure and you meat eaters are sullied by original sin.

Oh and for reference I'm not a creationist or even a Christian but am working on becoming Buddhist.
Posted: Sun, 25th Nov 2007, 11:04pm

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Rawree

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Rockfilmers wrote:

I can't stand it when people say that they don't eat meat because it's mean. Think about. Look at the lion! It eats meat! If we realy are just another animal like these evolutionists say, then we should eat meat too smile
In that case whenever a parent re-marries, the step parent should immediately murder any young children to assert his dominance as head of the family. Whilst we're at it incest and public defecation should also be encouraged; after all we're all part of the animal kingdom, am I right guys? What a silly and reductionist argument. Why do you care what people put into their bodies? Be it food, drugs or gravel it's their business and not yours and frankly if it annoys you that much then maybe you should lighten up!
Posted: Sun, 25th Nov 2007, 11:18pm

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Hybrid-Halo

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I personally believe that meat tastes better if it has first been tortured. That's why I order all my steaks from torture farms. Similar to Hostel, just with animals instead of American tourists.

I've no problem with Vegetarians, though you will never ever catch me sharing a dinner table with one. I understand the logic behind moral vegetarianism. As humans we indeed have the ability to actively make diet based choices. I've no care for what is deemed natural or unnatural - simply because we are able to understand or desire to prevent suffering of lesser species doesn't mean we should feel inclined to because at the end of the day I value my own life over that of any animal and I like the taste of meat.

Plus, I truly believe that if Animals could farm us they would. Who says they aren't farming us right now in another dimension?

-Hybrid.

p.s. I'm sure I read that somewhere that it would actually be impossible for everyone in the world to be vegetarian due to there not being enough space to farm all the crops as well as live on the planet. Anyone read something similiar?
Posted: Sun, 25th Nov 2007, 11:28pm

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Rawree

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Hybrid-Halo wrote:



p.s. I'm sure I read that somewhere that it would actually be impossible for everyone in the world to be vegetarian due to there not being enough space to farm all the crops as well as live on the planet. Anyone read something similiar?
I couldn't say where I heard it but that does ring a bell. To be honest I think things are working pretty well as they are, I don't think the world would be better off if everyone was one thing or the other. I don't care what people eat, I'll never try and influence what they eat and all I ask is that they do the same for me. I should add that I've been tempted to go back to an omnivorous lifestyle but to be honest vegetarianism doesn't affect my life enough or make things difficult enough to really make a difference and give me a reason to change.
Posted: Sun, 25th Nov 2007, 11:34pm

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Hybrid-Halo

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For now!

DUN DUN DUN! smile

Though I agree. Provided we're all able to respect and do our best not to impede upon each others choices then we can all get along.

I'll be honest and say that I have a tendency to dislike vegetarians - though this is based off scenarios in which I have been prevented from eating meat due to the presence of a vegetarian. There's a problem with that, you don't ever catch me stopping people from eating salads. smile

I think it's safe to say that I take issue with anyone who believes their choices are purer or better than those of others when society clearly allows both to exist, Religious, nutritional or both.

-Hybrid.

Last edited Sun, 25th Nov 2007, 11:43pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Sun, 25th Nov 2007, 11:40pm

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Merrick

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Darth Penguin wrote:

We are sentient, which makes us their superiors, so they are at our mercy, and we can avoid causing them suffering by not killing them.

ben3308 wrote:

Yeah, if I remember correctly, the Museum of Natural History in NY had an expose on sentient thought, and they said it had to include being self-aware, of which dolphins, humans, chimpanzees, and dogs are only capable.
Does that mean that in the future we may have vegitarian dogs? biggrin What next!!!
Posted: Sun, 25th Nov 2007, 11:43pm

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Arktic

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"I'm sure I read that somewhere that it would actually be impossible for everyone in the world to be vegetarian due to there not being enough space to farm all the crops as well as live on the planet. Anyone read something similiar?"

No, I've read quite the opposite in fact.

For example, our desire for ever cheaper chicken is fuelling the destruction of the Amazon Rainforest - it is being deforested so that farmers can plant acre upon acre of the soya feed needed to raise broiler chickens.

And per acre, you could grow 18,000 KG of potatoes at once, whereas you could only raise around 113 KG of beef at one time.

So the argument that meat is more effective or economical is null and void too.
Posted: Sun, 25th Nov 2007, 11:44pm

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petet2

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Hybrid-Halo wrote:


p.s. I'm sure I read that somewhere that it would actually be impossible for everyone in the world to be vegetarian due to there not being enough space to farm all the crops as well as live on the planet. Anyone read something similiar?
I have read exactly the opposite. Meat farming is actually a very inefficient means of land usage vs food production. Plants such as soya could feed many more people in a smaller area.
Posted: Sun, 25th Nov 2007, 11:48pm

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Hybrid-Halo

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Rating: +1

Problematically, Chicken still tastes better than Soya and goes well with potatoes. smile

Really, the main reason to not be a vegetarian is because I won't date you unless you eat meat. Now that everyone is convinced, I've no further comment to make.

-Hybrid.
Posted: Sun, 25th Nov 2007, 11:54pm

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Arktic

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Rawree wrote:

I don't care what people eat, I'll never try and influence what they eat and all I ask is that they do the same for me.
I agree to an extent, but I do think that people need to be made aware of certain things about the food they eat.

For example, I spent a week in an abattoir not too long ago, making a programme about the meat industry. In it, the audience at home and the guests in the abattoir watch the process of slaughter from start to finish. Some people were hugely affected by it. It's certainly not a nice process, and something that a lot of people choose to ignore (which I think is pretty disgusting; if you're willing to have an animal sacrifice it's life for your pleasure, you ought to face up to what actually happens to it, imho). I'm not going to lie, watching the slaughter of goats was particularly difficult for me. However, that said, I do believe that it's something that people need to be aware of, because if we all realised that animal cruelty and suffering can be minimised in farming/meat production, then we'd all end up with more ethical food on our tables - and in turn, that food would taste better. It's a very well accepted fact that a happy animal is a tasty animal.

Also, I'm currently working on a project about the chicken industry; and I've learned a lot of things about 'standard' chicken production - and from now on, I'm going to try and avoid buying value chicken; not only is it totally unethical in terms of the welfare of the birds, but also the rate that farmers get paid per bird for value chicken is disgusting. By supporting better standards, you're also supporting a better deal for the farmers, which is something I'm 100% for. And because it's something I believe in, I'll tell my friends and relatives the whole host of reasons for buying a better product.

But I'd also never actively stop anyone from eating whatever they want - I personally enjoy meat, and have made a conscious decision to carry on eating it, but at the same time I do try to buy ethically sourced food, and will recommend to my friends that they do the same.

Cheers,
Arktic.
Posted: Mon, 26th Nov 2007, 12:03am

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ben3308

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Arktic wrote:

if you're willing to have an animal sacrifice it's life for your pleasure, you ought to face up to what actually happens to it, imho
I understand most of your points, but at this particular sentence, herein lies the issue: we're not having animals sacrificed for our pleasure, per se, but for our health and nutrition.

Just because as a race of consumers we have abused our dependence upon meat for protein and meals does not mean it is something we only eat for pleasure.

Go ahead and look in the mirror with a smile. See those two pointy teeth just shy of your front ones? Those are canines, meant to shred meat. Meat is something we are, at least physiologically-speaking, meant to eat. It supplies us with most of the proteins our bodies require, of which no plant can offer. Meat also facilitates most of the amino acids, iron, and phosphorous we need to be healthy human beings. Though the aforementioned three nutrients can be attained through vegetables, comparatively, it is much more efficient to get them into your system through consuming meat.

Now I'm not trying to make the hugest case for meat, I've just always found vegetarianism and being vegan both to be considerably foolish practices, considering our bodies are evidence that we're supposed to be omnivores. I of course mean no offense to the vegans on here, I just thought I'd outline why I am 'against' it, as it were.

Last edited Mon, 26th Nov 2007, 12:04am; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Mon, 26th Nov 2007, 12:03am

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Hendo

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While I'm a meat-eater, I am in favour of educating people about the industry, for reasons that Arktic explained, as well as with regard to climate change.

If westerners skipped meat for 1 meal (or even better 1 day) each week we'd all be more healthy for a start, but we'd also have a huge impact on carbon emissions:

1. Less cattle would require less grazing and hence less land-clearing
2. Less cattle to transport
3. Less methane gas emissions
Posted: Mon, 26th Nov 2007, 12:51am

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Merrick

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I eat meat, though, it is always from a healthy animal. Eating factory-farmed meat not only is mistreating animals, but leads to hormones, pesticides, and antibiotics all being inroduced to our bodies. Plus, it tastes terrible; I can't stand the taste of fast food and the like. I might actually become a vegetarian someday, but for now, I'm still eating meat, just good meat. If you think about what early humans would have eaten, it would probably include nuts, roots, and other plants with lots of stored energy; plus different kinds of leafs and other plants; and an occasional lean meat. That, in my opinion, is the healthiest diet for a human.
Posted: Mon, 26th Nov 2007, 1:01am

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Atom

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Nothing to me is more sickening than a vegan/vegetarian trying to make someone watch an animal being slaughtered to prove a point.

That's just low and sick, especially when it makes someone who would otherwise eat meat not because, well, they're sickened by the thought. This isn't to say now they believe eating meat to be wrong, just that they get a sick feeling from it because of those images and simply can't eat meat.

I've seen it happen to my friends, by some of my friends, and it's outright lame. People aren't forcing you to eat meat, stop trying to send a message and educate the masses that likely don't need or want to be educated. The nutrition facts on food are enough for me. Call it ignorance if you want, but at the end of the day almost everything we consume, leisure around, and inhabit has some some sort of dark past that I really don't want to know about. And in those instances, ignorance is bliss.
Posted: Mon, 26th Nov 2007, 1:21am

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Arktic

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Nothing to me is more sickening than a vegan/vegetarian trying to make someone watch an animal being slaughtered to prove a point.
You seem to have missed some quite salient points, if you're referring to me.

I'd never make anyone watch the slaughter of an animal. Everyone who came to "Kill it, Cook it, Eat it" was well aware of what they were going to see, and could leave at any point. And viewers at home don't have to watch if they don't want to; that's what your remote control is for.

I just happen to be of the opinion that you're quite a pathetic individual if you can't face up to the real facts about the food you're eating. It's both ignorant and arrogant, and shows a lack of respect for life.
Posted: Mon, 26th Nov 2007, 1:41am

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Atom

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Arktic wrote:

Nothing to me is more sickening than a vegan/vegetarian trying to make someone watch an animal being slaughtered to prove a point.
You seem to have missed some quite salient points, if you're referring to me.
I wasn't directly talking about you, as you highlighted people chose to see it. But your posts did prompt my remark. But no, I'm not really referring to you.

I just happen to be of the opinion that you're quite a pathetic individual if you can't face up to the real facts about the food you're eating. It's both ignorant and arrogant, and shows a lack of respect for life.
That's quite a statement there, one I would advise you to look over. I see nothing wrong with not wanting to know, or for a more specific facet, not caring to know where what I consume exactly came from. Honestly, I know beef is cow and chicken is chicken, that's it for me. Either way, I don't eat beef in the first place. I quote Steve Buscemi in 'The Island'

"Just because you eat the steak doesn't mean you want to meet the cow."

I'm not at all saying I agree with some of the practices against animals or that I don't sympathize- I absolutely do. But like Hybrid, at the end of the day I eat meat. Don't attack me for it, or for not wanting to be disgusted by precisely how and where it came from. I'm not necessarily attacking and calling you names now, am I?
Posted: Mon, 26th Nov 2007, 1:54am

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Arktic

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Fair enough - but that's my opinion. Not necessarily directed towards you, Atom, but generally of people who don't have the stomach to face the reality of what they're eating.

"I'm not necessarily attacking and calling you names now, am I?" - saying what I'm in favour of is 'low', 'sick', 'sickening' and 'outright lame' seems kinda like name-calling to me.
Posted: Mon, 26th Nov 2007, 2:02am

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Jabooza

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Hybrid-Halo wrote:

I personally believe that meat tastes better if it has first been tortured. That's why I order all my steaks from torture farms. Similar to Hostel, just with animals instead of American tourists.

I've no problem with Vegetarians, though you will never ever catch me sharing a dinner table with one. I understand the logic behind moral vegetarianism. As humans we indeed have the ability to actively make diet based choices. I've no care for what is deemed natural or unnatural - simply because we are able to understand or desire to prevent suffering of lesser species doesn't mean we should feel inclined to because at the end of the day I value my own life over that of any animal and I like the taste of meat.
I agree.
Posted: Mon, 26th Nov 2007, 2:23am

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Atom

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Arktic wrote:

Fair enough - but that's my opinion. Not necessarily directed towards you, Atom, but generally of people who don't have the stomach to face the reality of what they're eating.

"I'm not necessarily attacking and calling you names now, am I?" - saying what I'm in favour of is 'low', 'sick', 'sickening' and 'outright lame' seems kinda like name-calling to me.


Agree to Disagree.
Posted: Mon, 26th Nov 2007, 3:35am

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hatsoff2halford

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Ben, I suggest you research what you're talking about before you throw down the law on nutrition. Every nutrient found in meat can be found elsewhere. It has been PROVEN in the largest "most comprehensive study of diet, lifestyle, and disease every conducted with humans in the history of biomedical research." (The China Study) that the protein, fat and cholesterol in meat and dairy cause chronic disease such as cancer, Alzheimer's and diabeties. Not to mention, it is one of the main causes of heart attack and stroke.

Plant based protein has been proven to not affect the body in any negative manner. While animal based protein, such as Casien promote almost all stages of liver cancer and colon cancer. Yes, it may be more effective to ingest a 1/4 pound hamburger, and at the same time consume excessive amounts of hard to digest animal fat, but vegetables are rich in protein and calcium and are easy to digest. In fact, Broccoli has a higher protein to calcium ration than meat does. Another argument people have is that some protein can only be found in meat. This is not the case, all 9 essential amino acids can be found in the plant food Quinoa.

As for us having canines, and because "cavemen" ate meat, does not mean that we should. In medieval times there was incest, should we continue that practice? Look at gorilla's teeth, they have impressive canines yet they are a purely vegetarian animal. We also have a long intestinal tract which most herbivores have in order to extract nutrients from plant based foods. Carnivores have short intestines needed to digest meat quickly.

the list goes on, it is just lucky that humans have the ability to eat so many foods. Maybe it's because we can prepare them, unlike a lion or any wild animal.
Posted: Mon, 26th Nov 2007, 4:06am

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Atom

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hatsoff2halford wrote:

As for us having canines, and because "cavemen" ate meat, does not mean that we should. In medieval times there was incest, should we continue that practice?
I don't see how that analogy is at all fitting. Frankly, it just makes you sound silly. Something every human is born with is entirely different than a practice. It's like me trying to compare having 5-fingers on each hand and slavery- neither have anything to do with eachother.

Either way, we're built to eat meat, and you know it. I'm not saying it's politically or morally correct, but we are. And for all of the ailments and negatives to meat you've listed, I don't for one second believe your assertion that there aren't "any" of these negatives in eating plants.
Posted: Mon, 26th Nov 2007, 4:12am

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ben3308

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Two words:

Poisonous mushrooms.

Need I say more about the evils of plants?

wink
Posted: Mon, 26th Nov 2007, 4:25am

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hatsoff2halford

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I'm sorry, I worded that incorrectly. The incest analogy is supposed to be for the argument that "cavemen" ate meat. And the canines statement went with the Gorilla statement. If anyone were to sound "silly" right now, it would be you. If you are positive that we as humans were "meant" to eat meat, please enlighten me. Prove what I said wrong. If you are going to provide your "facts" you should at least provide information on where to find them and confirm them. You have grown up your whole life thinking that meat and dairy is good for us, so it is hard for anyone to accept that it is one of the largest nutritional misconceptions.

And Ben, of course there are poisonous plants. I am speaking about the plants that contain nutrients that can "only" be found in animal products. And I know you were just kidding around, I didn't take it wrongly.
Posted: Mon, 26th Nov 2007, 4:34am

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Rockfilmers

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I just think it's so bad that some people say that it's wrong to kill animales, that they have fealings, then say it's ok to do abortions (and I'm not trying to move this topic to abortion). How come we can't kill a cow that has never had a thought go through it's mind on how it can make a diffrence in the world, but we can kill an embrio who will grow up to be some one. Please explanie the logic to me (If any at all).
Posted: Mon, 26th Nov 2007, 4:41am

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hatsoff2halford

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I think the logic behind abortions is that the baby has the possibility to grow up in a bad environment. Adoption decreases this risk, but if every baby aborted were put up for adoption, we would probably have overcrowding in orphanages and the like. In the book Freakonomics Steven D. Levitt has significant evidence that abortion has lowered crime. I'm not saying I support it, it's just a weird idea.

As for us killing cows who have "never thought", people find it wrong because the animals DO feel pain. AND, we are breeding them specifically for the purpose of killing them. We don't breed babies just so we can abort them.
Posted: Mon, 26th Nov 2007, 5:59am

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Bryce007

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I've raised and slaughtered chickens AND ducks. Yes, by hand. With a hatchet. In fact, to heighten exactly what I'm referring to, I had to grab said animal around the neck, hold it against the chopping block, and chop off the head in one strike. Blood squirted. quite a bit of it. After I was finished, I was actually covered in it. Overall, in 2 years, I probably hand-killed about 70 ducks and 90 chickens. Up close and personal.

I'm from California originally. I'm not a farm boy. Never was and never will be. My parents just thought adding some farm-like activities to our life style might be interesting, so we did it.

I've also eaten almost every type of meat, and I'll continue to do so until I hear a reasonable answer as to why I shouldn't.

It's certainly true that I'd prefer only buying Organic, free range meat and eggs, but lets not kid ourselves. That's EXTREMELY expensive. It's usually around four times the price to buy "Healthy and humane" meat and eggs. I don't have the money to do that.

Thus, I currently buy whatever happens to be reasonably priced. Which isn't the healthiest thing of all time, but it's also not fast food (Which I refuse to eat. period.)

Point is, having done the killing hasn't deterred me from enjoying steak, chicken, or any other meat for that matter.

(Although, Ostrich tastes pretty gross)
Posted: Mon, 26th Nov 2007, 6:56am

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Waser

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Aculag wrote:

Who else is a cannibal?


I was a vegan for a month once. I lost 11 pounds and got really sick.
Posted: Mon, 26th Nov 2007, 7:41am

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Hybrid-Halo

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ben3308 wrote:

Two words:

Poisonous mushrooms.

Need I say more about the evils of plants?
You don't even need to mention they're poisonous. Mushrooms alone are the purest example of the evil of plants. Then there are those giant evil fly traps. Though there is a poisonous mushroom called the death's cap, pretty harsh.

Atom, I agree with the point you're making though I do feel the need to say that I think you took Arktic's statement out of hand. We would all be better as human beings and we'd be more active about fair trade if we all looked into where our food came from and how it was processed - whether that's being more aware of animal slaughter or the harvest of crops is irrelevant. We're eating this stuff, we should know a little more about it than how much it costs and how to cook it.

I agree that the extremist veggie types who send videos out of animals being mistreated are pretty dire people, though honestly.. Right off the top of my head I can think of videos online where humans are performing atrocities or just something indescribably weird and scarring to send right back that it nullifies any potential shock factor of seeing a pig bleed.

Some of you will know of the horrors I speak.

Speaking of which, Waser - I heard that you were a vegetarian for a while though had to switch back to being a meat eater once you contracted Lupus, partly because the werewolf council wouldn't allow you to eat human substitutes as part of your initiation ceremony into wolf kind.

-Hybrid.
Posted: Mon, 26th Nov 2007, 11:07am

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Xcession

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I doubt anyone here is discussing the issue with all the facts to hand. Unless anyone here has a doctorate in behaviorology, nutrition or mammalian physiology, I think its fair to say that people are putting forward their best guesses and in some cases, flagrant bollocks.

One thing its safer to say however, is that upright man has been an omnivore for so long now that our dietary requirements are arguably genetic.

Thats not to say that you should eat meat because its evolution (sic), but simply that one should not mess with millions of years of behaviour without some real though about your own well being, not just the fluffy animals'.

I don't think I know a single fat vegetarian/vegan, so in that respect non-meat-eaters are doing something right. On the other hand I don't know a single non-meat-eater who is the pinacle of health and requires no suppliments, if they're absolutely honest about it.

If you're happy doing it (whatever 'it' is) and the processing of our food is done respectfully, sustainably and ecologically, then I have no objections to anyone's choices.

Last edited Mon, 26th Nov 2007, 11:54am; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Mon, 26th Nov 2007, 11:51am

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Simon K Jones

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Atom wrote:

Call it ignorance if you want
It's ignorance.

but at the end of the day almost everything we consume, leisure around, and inhabit has some some sort of dark past that I really don't want to know about. And in those instances, ignorance is bliss.
Not sure I really understand that attitude. Why would you actively want to be ignorant? Surely acquiring knowledge is a good thing?

With regards to the topics at hand, having knowledge of where food comes from, not to mention other products like Coca Cola etc, is really quite important. To stick your head in the sand and deliberately avoid understanding their manufacture seems rather odd to me - after all, if everyone had that attitude we'd still have slavery.

If you don't want to actively investigate this stuff, then that's fair enough. You don't have to be an activist by any means, or even take an active interest. But if you do stumble across the information, then surely it's something you should acknowledge, rather than putting your fingers in your ears and shouting 'la la la' really loudly?

As an adult I feel I've got a responsibility towards other people. Therefore when I find out that a corporation is exploiting workers abroad quite horrendously, I'll stop buying their product. I'd rather not, as I really, really enjoy that product. But no matter how much I like it, it doesn't out-weigh serious cases of abuse in its manufacture.

Same goes for food. We try to make a point of buying ethical goods whenever possible. Sometimes it's difficult, sure, but not everything is easy. Sometimes you do have to put a bit of effort in.
Posted: Mon, 26th Nov 2007, 12:01pm

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Xcession

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Slight tangent ahoy...

I saw Mark Thomas's documentaries the other day on Coca Cola (no doubt what Tarn is refering to) which was interesting, if a little sensationalist, even though its a concern thats been raging for over a decade.

Aside from the content of the documentary itself, I turned to my girlfriend half way through and asked "Do you suppose he eats or drinks ANYTHING, given that everyone has a dark past and he'd probably boycott oxygen if he had the chance?".

Our conclusions were either...
a) He leads a sad and lonely life, anally scrutinising every product on every shelf of every local, small, organically-farmed business.

b) He considers his job purely to inform the mindless hoards, but loves a nice pint of Cola.

So getting back to the topic at hand - It seemed unlikely Mark Thomas would be fall clearly on one side or the other, but more somewhere in between. I imagine he has his personal views, but doesn't waste his time and everyone elses by deliberately being obtuse about everything he does.

The goal with these kinds of moral decisions is not to be ignorant and therefore practical, but rather to be mindful and practical.

If you're given the choice of buying a can of coke locally, or driving 2 miles to buy an organically sourced vitamin-enriched juice drink from the local farm shop, the solution isn't clear. Either polute by driving a pointless journey, or support the nasty corporation.

No one is asking people to make polarised decisions, but simply to consider both sides.

Last edited Mon, 26th Nov 2007, 12:15pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Mon, 26th Nov 2007, 12:13pm

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Simon K Jones

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Yeah, that was the most recent thing I'd seen on the Coca Cola debate, though I only actually saw half the programme. Still, it was enough to put me off, even once you'd factored in the Michael Moore-style sensationalism.

With meat it's perhaps slightly different, but with stuff like coke, it really is a luxury and an option. If I don't drink coke, it doesn't really bother me that much, much as I like it - in fact, it'll probably make me healthier. So not drinking Coca Cola or Sprite ever again is slightly annoying, but hardly a big issue. Even if Thomas' claims were exaggerrated at all, even a small amount of what he was covering is enough to offset any kind of annoyance I might have at not being able to drink something I like.

With meat it's a bit trickier, as it's a less clear 'product'. If you don't like Coca Cola's ways, you can simply stop buying their products. With 'meat' it's all a bit more vague, and actually finding an 'ethical' source of meat can be annoyingly tricky.

I wish I could afford to go to a local butcher's everytime. It always, always tastes vastly better, and you know where it's comes from. We should all get a Meat Pay Rise.
Posted: Mon, 26th Nov 2007, 12:51pm

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Arktic

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With 'meat' it's all a bit more vague, and actually finding an 'ethical' source of meat can be annoyingly tricky.
This is a very valid point, but nearly every supermarket stocks something along the lines of the RSPCA's "Freedom Food" products. These are animals that are raised to a higher standard of welfare than the current legal minimum (which, in a lot of cases, is shocking). Buying these kinds of products* will encourage the supermarkets to carry more of these lines, which in turn gives a better deal to the farmers, as well as ensuring that the meat you're eating has been brought up in decent conditions.

And Freedom Food or similar quality meat doesn't cost that much more - whereas a 'value' 1.5 kg chicken costs maybe £2, an equivalent RSPCA standard one will be maybe £3 - £4. And when you think about it, a couple of pounds isn't a huge setback to your shopping budget (especially if you're not buying any more coca-cola wink!)

Arktic.

* - Or where these products aren't stocked, writing to your local supermarket and asking them to stock them; if enough people do it, they will, and it's a very acchievable goal.
Posted: Mon, 26th Nov 2007, 1:30pm

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Simon K Jones

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Arktic wrote:

And Freedom Food or similar quality meat doesn't cost that much more - whereas a 'value' 1.5 kg chicken costs maybe £2, an equivalent RSPCA standard one will be maybe £3 - £4. And when you think about it, a couple of pounds isn't a huge setback to your shopping budget
Hmm, I'm not too sure about that. For individual use that's fair enough, but if you're buying for a family it can very quickly ramp up quite considerably.

(especially if you're not buying any more coca-cola wink!)
Well, that is certainly true. smile

All this talk of meat has made me want to visit our local(ish) butcher, who is damned good.
Posted: Mon, 26th Nov 2007, 1:33pm

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Xcession

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My local butcher near where i work had to close due to no trade. In its place opened an Aga shop. Honestly! Only in Oxfordshire. How pointlessly upper-middle-class is that!
Posted: Mon, 26th Nov 2007, 1:41pm

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Simon K Jones

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Hehe. How very annoying.

The butcher here is constantly rammed, you can rarely park outside the damned place.
Posted: Mon, 26th Nov 2007, 1:45pm

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Arktic

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Exactly Tarn - yes, it may very well be difficult for some families to afford those kinds of things, and I don't begrudge them that fact at all; but at the same time, lots of people who DO buy value chicken also buy sweets, crisps, chocolate, carbonated soft drinks, processed ready meals, alcohol and cigarettes. The 'I can't afford organic/free range' excuse doesn't wash with me when you're also buying that kind of assorted crap that you don't actually need.

It would do their health (not to mention their wallets) some good to cut down on these other unhealthy things and pay a little more for decent, ethical food.


Cheers,
Arktic.

PS - I don't understand/'get' agas... aren't they just like... ovens?
Posted: Mon, 26th Nov 2007, 2:19pm

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Xcession

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Agas are ovens for posh people who live in quaint farmhouses or cottages and believe they are in some way "bohemian" while everyone else calls them a "ponce".

Actually, they're like an oven (or several ovens really) but they're often hooked up to the house's central heating system too. You put wood in your Aga to cook your meal, but the heat is also used as heating for the entire building, via the special plumbing. Environmentally awesome, if you actually use it to heat your house, which most people buying a new one probably wouldn't if they've already forked out for radiators etc.

Posted: Mon, 26th Nov 2007, 3:38pm

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Waser

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Hybrid-Halo wrote:


I heard that you were a vegetarian for a while though had to switch back to being a meat eater once you contracted Lupus, partly because the werewolf council wouldn't allow you to eat human substitutes as part of your initiation ceremony into wolf kind.
The council's still out on their verdict, but we're all holding our breath.

Oh crap, people are saying intelligent things.
Posted: Mon, 26th Nov 2007, 3:55pm

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Frosty G

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I don't mind vegans. That's ones own choice, but I do hate when I can't get a cheeseburger because for some reason for every one real burger we must have about three plantburgers. And the vegans at my school still throw a hissyfit when there are still meat products for the rest of us.

I don't think I have the willpower to say no to a cheesesteak. Call me weak, but its just too delicious.
Posted: Mon, 26th Nov 2007, 8:18pm

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Fill

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Also, on a side note, I know a few vegetarians that don't eat meat for health purposes, but my cousin is starting to drive me insane.

"My Dad: Hey, you should check out my new car.
[My cousin gets in the car and sits in the back seat]
Cousin: Are these seats leather?
My Dad: Yeah, they're real leather, isn't it nice?
Cousin: I'm leaving.
Me: Oh, for God's sakes!"

Another thing: My cousin was convinced by some video she saw of chickens being raised in unhealthy conditions.

That all being said, I'll make my point.

Not all animals are "mass produced." Actually if you look at Amish farmers, you'll find that they raise their animals in extremely healthy conditions, and that they are treated like royalty. So, if people are so concerned about the welfare of animals, there you go. Another example is Native Americans. When they killed an animal while on a hunting trip, they held a small ceremony to honor it, and thank it for providing for them.

I'm really getting irritated by all these, "STOP ANIMAL TESTING!!!!" e-mails I'm getting all the time too. I'll be completely honest and say that I would rather see a field of 1,000 dead dogs than myself dead. I'm pretty fixed on survival. If animals that were grown in labs, obviously not hurting the animal population, are being tested on for cancer for the good of our own species, well, tough. I'm not trying to put this, "Animals don't matter" vibe out here, but rather expressing my honest opinion.

*Stops rambling and plays Mass Effect*
Posted: Mon, 26th Nov 2007, 9:55pm

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Rockfilmers

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I agree with fill on this. What are we going to test a new cancer treatment that is possibly life threating? A human? Should we say let the lab rat live and forget all the people with cancer?
Posted: Mon, 26th Nov 2007, 10:53pm

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Simon K Jones

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Rockfilmers wrote:

I agree with fill on this. What are we going to test a new cancer treatment that is possibly life threating? A human? Should we say let the lab rat live and forget all the people with cancer?
That's not really what it's about (well, not if you talk to a sensible person - ie, a non-extremist).

It's about minimising the animal's suffering, whether it be a test subject or a food item. The problem that many people have - including myself - is that in a lot of cases, no efforts are made to minimise the suffering.

I have no problem with killing animals and eating them. But I would prefer that it was done in the least painful and stressful manner possible.
Posted: Mon, 26th Nov 2007, 11:30pm

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Rockfilmers

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I have no problem with killing animals and eating them. But I would prefer that it was done in the least painful and stressful manner possible
That, I agree with two. I can't stand watching any living thing get hurt (as in pain), I just think that a human not dieing is alot more important then an animels pain.
Posted: Tue, 27th Nov 2007, 12:19am

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petet2

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Rockfilmers wrote:

I agree with fill on this. What are we going to test a new cancer treatment that is possibly life threating? A human? Should we say let the lab rat live and forget all the people with cancer?
History is littered with examples of medications that have been tested on animals and have been given the green light then been discovered to have appalling side effects on humans. Animal testing is actually becoming pretty ineffecient as a means of screening medications. Computer modelling and tissue cultures followed by carefuuly controlled human testing is a much better way to go.

It is also a very unrealistically emotive point to state that animal testing = cancer treatment. There are a vast number of tests on animals for products such as cosmetics and foodstuffs not to mention alcohol and tobacco that are completely needless. If animal testing was just carried out for medical purposes the number of animals dying in laboratories would fall dramatically.

And for the record my wife had a brain tumour five years ago (which has left her having to take anti-epileptic medication every day) and is is currently in remission from an unrelated and particularly malignant form of sarcoma for which she had surgery three years ago [just in case anyone decided to retort with a "how would you feel if your relative had cancer?" Been there, got the whole set of t shirts!]
Posted: Tue, 27th Nov 2007, 12:10pm

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Arktic

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Rating: +1

What are we going to test a new cancer treatment that is possibly life threating? A human? Should we say let the lab rat live and forget all the people with cancer?
Yes! All decisions are binary! Everything in the world is black or white!

</sarcasm>
Posted: Tue, 27th Nov 2007, 2:35pm

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petet2

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Arktic wrote:

What are we going to test a new cancer treatment that is possibly life threating? A human? Should we say let the lab rat live and forget all the people with cancer?
Yes! All decisions are binary! Everything in the world is black or white!

</sarcasm>
Nicely put! Thanks for a smile at work at lunch time. I think "All decisions are not binary" would make a great t shirt.
Posted: Tue, 27th Nov 2007, 8:25pm

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Serpent

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About Agas: they are actually a great and efficient method of cooking. Now I can't always keep up with British vernacular, but it sounded like you (Xcession) were insulting people who use/own them. I think they are rather awesome and if one were into cooking and could afford one, go for it. My mom cooks as a hobby and is getting one for my parents' new house, I hear a lot about Agas. I know she isn't trying to be fancy or anything like that, she just likes cooking and apparently the Aga is her choice oven. Though I'm sure there are plenty of "ponces" who own an Aga.
Posted: Tue, 27th Nov 2007, 8:31pm

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Fill

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petet2 wrote:

History is littered with examples of medications that have been tested on animals and have been given the green light then been discovered to have appalling side effects on humans.
Blame the FDA, not the animal testers. That's a whole other issue.... wink
Posted: Mon, 17th Dec 2007, 3:53am

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DeimosEclipse

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They're are carnivorous plant's too, so nature in every form says it's ok to eat meat.
Posted: Mon, 17th Dec 2007, 1:21pm

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petet2

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DeimosEclipse wrote:

They're are carnivorous plant's too, so nature in every form says it's ok to eat meat.
Apart from all the herbivores I guess...
Posted: Sun, 8th Jun 2008, 12:41am

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Elijah

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I am a Nutritarian! A Nutritarian is someone who eats a lot of whole high nutrient foods like vegetables and fruits.
Posted: Sun, 8th Jun 2008, 1:16am

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Aculag

Force: 8365 | Joined: 21st Jun 2002 | Posts: 8581

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Elijah wrote:

I am a Nutritarian! A Nutritarian is someone who eats a lot of whole high nutrient foods like vegetables and fruits.
Also called a vegetarian.
Posted: Sun, 8th Jun 2008, 6:11am

Post 81 of 86

Atom

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I am a Pointless Thread Reviver! A person who is bold and ridiculous enough to bring back up a tired and expired argument-based thread with the audacity of exclamation points at the end of my sentences seemingly oblivious to the date of the thread and the fact that I arbitrarily resurrected it after joining this community mere hours ago myself.
Posted: Sun, 8th Jun 2008, 6:16am

Post 82 of 86

Aculag

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No you're not. wink
Posted: Sun, 8th Jun 2008, 6:18am

Post 83 of 86

Atom

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Aimless 3rd-person-phrasing-continuation of old thread. wink
Posted: Sun, 8th Jun 2008, 6:23am

Post 84 of 86

Orin Warren

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Hi I'm Orin warren and I'm a meat eater. I have been eating meat since my baby teeth grew in. I think being a vegetarian is pointless due to the fact that whatever we eat is in some way from anmial. for example cow eats grass then poops then the poop is taken to be use to grow plants which we eat. but I could be crazy
Posted: Sun, 8th Jun 2008, 6:54am

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Aculag

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Orrin, even though anmial eat plant and poop poop and then we human eat plant, that doesn't mean that plant come from anmial. So yeah, you're a little crazy.
Posted: Sun, 8th Jun 2008, 10:18am

Post 86 of 86

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Aculag, this should really clear your confusion up.

This link, I'm just adding because I like it.