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Are you serious?

Posted: Wed, 4th Jun 2008, 12:29am

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doppelganger

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Ok, I was on youtube and I looked at the featured section and there was a student film from someone getting their MASTERS degree in Production and Direction. So I checked it out.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=h2Sk28NqLrc

And after it was done, I just thought to myself "How could anyone get their masters at a film school with THAT." It looked like an extremely basic film with no creativity at all... not to mention it looked like they used wmm.

Its got a good message I wont deny it but you dont know what its about until the end...

Your Thoughts, do you think their letting pretty much anyone get into film school, or am I just crazy...

Last edited Wed, 4th Jun 2008, 12:38am; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Wed, 4th Jun 2008, 12:37am

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Atom

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Money.
Posted: Wed, 4th Jun 2008, 12:38am

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Hybrid-Halo

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Sadly, Talent has never been a factor in academic success.
Posted: Wed, 4th Jun 2008, 1:13am

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DVStudio

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Hybrid-Halo wrote:

Sadly, Talent has never been a factor in academic success.
Very true. Very sad.
Posted: Wed, 4th Jun 2008, 1:41am

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Zephlon

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Can I apply for my masters now? wow...there was one about one cenimatic shot in there, a decent story, and decent acting. Thats...?

But honestly thats why I never have really wanted to go to a film school, because most of them teach the basics, unless you want to fork out $70,000 a semester. I say internships all the way (Or know someone who knows someone)

Makes us appreciate all the talent we see everyday at FXhome.com

With that in mind, how many of you are planning on actually going into film for a career?

(not trying to change topics but trying to add on, yell at me if you want me to post in another section)
Posted: Wed, 4th Jun 2008, 1:50am

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Atom

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I'm going to film school and plan to go into film as a career, Zephlon.
Posted: Wed, 4th Jun 2008, 2:02am

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FCRabbath

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wasn't that bad.
i didn't go to film school, i personally think you don't need a degree to make films.
Posted: Wed, 4th Jun 2008, 2:06am

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ben3308

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I hate to be the elephant in the room on this one, but I actually enjoyed the movie. The angles were passable, they would have been exponentially better if the film were simply cropped to widescreen. As in, cut out the extra headspace in post, and you're golden.

I admit the wonky cuts from the well-played angles around the head or over the shoulders to the static, diluted wide shots were shoddy and unecessary; but such dribble is common for someone who doesn't know how to get what they want.

As in, you learn a lot in school, work really hard, demonstrate a working knowledge of how to do what you're taught and execute it to a reasonable standard and then- tragically- find that beyond all your learning and attempts at creating something, you lack the artistic skills necessary to drive such creativity.

I respect this person for getting as far as they did in school and for producing this film, despite their lack of large talent. I think it's obvious they took what they learned and used it. School might teach you how to shoot and how to schedule, but they don't teach you to artistically deduce what shots are needed according to how much time/how many resources there are to get the shot. This mindframe is a 'shoot for the edit' one espoused by the likes of Michael Bay and Robert Rodriguez, and I think it takes talents and ingenuity to approach this higher-order level of thinking film-wise.

EDIT:

As for filmschool, though film school does not a good director make, I do think that it helps with connections, internships, and creative fellowships later on. There aren't a lot of Hollywood directors or A.S.C members who haven't been to film school, and I think this has a lot to do with who you know and how you know them.

Does film school necessarily help talent? I'm not so sure. FCRabbath is some of the best I've seen (and I've seen a LOT) and he didn't go to film school. But for me, the connections, equipment, and freedom film school gives me will help me advance my career, as I'm intent upon 'making it' into the industry. I'll even play the twin card on people, if that helps further my directorial dreams. wink
Posted: Wed, 4th Jun 2008, 2:11am

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Thrawn

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Atom wrote:

I'm going to film school and plan to go into film as a career, Zephlon.
That's my plan as well...

Yeah, I really can't believe that this is a show of talent, or even potential. I mean, sure it was sappy, but not great film wise.
Posted: Wed, 4th Jun 2008, 2:12am

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FCRabbath

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ben3308 wrote:

I hate to be the elephant in the room on this one, but I actually enjoyed the movie. The angles were passable, they would have been exponentially better if the film were simply cropped to widescreen. As in, cut out the extra headspace in post, and you're golden.

I admit the wonky cuts from the well-played angles around the head or over the shoulders to the static, diluted wide shots were shoddy and unecessary; but such dribble is common for someone who doesn't know how to get what they want.

As in, you learn a lot in school, work really hard, demonstrate a working knowledge of how to do what you're taught and execute it to a reasonable standard and then- tragically- find that beyond all your learning and attempts at creating something, you lack the artistic skills necessary to drive such creativity.

I respect this person for getting as far as they did in school and for producing this film, despite their lack of large talent. I think it's obvious they took what they learned and used it. School might teach you how to shoot and how to schedule, but they don't teach you to artistically deduce what shots are needed according to how much time/how many resources there are to get the shot. This mindframe is a 'shoot for the edit' one espoused by the likes of Michael Bay and Robert Rodriguez, and I think it takes talents and ingenuity to approach this higher-order level of thinking film-wise.
i think a good idea is to find a degree in something else Bachelor wise (in case you don't make it in the film biz), then go to film school for grad school.
I might do that, but right now I'm in civil engineering - (1 year left!)
Posted: Wed, 4th Jun 2008, 2:18am

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ben3308

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FC, I'm thinking from a sort of 'other way around' perspective, heh. The way I see it, if things don't take off for film, then it's just my Bachelor's anyways, and as long as I have a general degree with high grades then grad schools (law, business, marketing, whatever) will likely accept me. (Despite my film talents I'm more of an academia-oriented person, so I think I'll be okay).
Posted: Wed, 4th Jun 2008, 2:26am

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FCRabbath

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ben3308 wrote:

FC, I'm thinking from a sort of 'other way around' perspective, heh. The way I see it, if things don't take off for film, then it's just my Bachelor's anyways, and as long as I have a general degree with high grades then grad schools (law, business, marketing, whatever) will likely accept me. (Despite my film talents I'm more of an academia-oriented person, so I think I'll be okay).
Funny, i was just about to edit and put "or vice versa", either way this was FSU's recommendation to me.
IT really just depends on who YOU are.
Posted: Wed, 4th Jun 2008, 2:37am

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doppelganger

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I plan on going to NCarts filmschool but I'm still a sophomore (1 days left till I'm a junior), and I dont have the talent to get into film school yet. Hopefully I'll drastically improve my cinematography over the summer, considering thats the field I want to go into.

But as much as it hurts to say it, I might change my mind on what I want to do for a living... who knows.

Thankfully I saw some of the shorts made by NCarts students and their very good IMO, hopefully they dont just teach the basics.

Quick note: Whats also worse is that all these people on youtube are telling them how amazing they think it is. So these guys aren't learning a thing... terrible for them.
Posted: Wed, 4th Jun 2008, 3:07am

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FCRabbath

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best of luck man!
Posted: Wed, 4th Jun 2008, 3:44am

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Thrawn

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Rebourne wrote:


Thankfully I saw some of the shorts made by NCarts students and their very good IMO, hopefully they dont just teach the basics.
I believe that it was Ben or Atom that said that Film school really wasn't about learning a whole lot. From what i've heard, they teach you the basics, but you go to film school because

1. You get more experience, and you will receive critic

2. You establish connections

3. Your a lot more likely to direct hollywood films if you've been through film schools

So yeah, it's not as much to learn as it is to do the above.
Posted: Wed, 4th Jun 2008, 4:01am

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Hybrid-Halo

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Part of the problem with education in general is that a lot of the work you do isn't out of a desire to create something beautiful - but simply to meet criteria for grades and pass.

You can do all the cool stuff in your own time. As beneficial as my University course was to me in regard to developing direction and applying learning to areas of art I was most interested was... No work I created implicitly for University was anything I was proud of.

Then there was Project One and Between the Lines I worked on during Uni - which I have pride for.

Anyway, my point is that despite agreeing with the mostly critical take on this piece of work. I get the impression that it was likely to be more of a learning piece than something created by a group of people with experience.

Also - A Masters is generally a year long and whilst they are supposed to be a higher level of education than a degree - due to the fact that you get people who did classical art coming over to film or visual effects (areas where skills don't necessarily directly cross over very fluidly) I've personally always questioned what having a 'Masters' in something really meant.

As a result I went into the industry instead of taking one.
-Matt
Posted: Wed, 4th Jun 2008, 6:49am

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Dead Iris

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Filmmaking is more of a hobby for me (an expensive one at that!). I have no plans as of now, to go to film school. For the price, it just won't boost whatever talent i might have. Sure you get the connections and the equipment. But I don't need all that right now. Maybe someday. But for now I think I'll be happy with what I got.
Posted: Wed, 4th Jun 2008, 7:15am

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Zephlon

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I agree with the fact that film school does help you get experience, critic, and get your name out. But as usual there are other ways to make it big, and 80% of that is luck, so the best of luck to you all

I guess I should answer my own question

I plan on and I'm currently pursuing my filming career. I have won 3 smaller film festivals and recently got excepted into the Denver film festival (slightly big). And as of recently my production company (COMV) has been keeping very busy with commercials and other client videos, and soon to be music videos. But in 4 months I will be taking a two year break from it all to serve a mission in Mexico for the LDS church.
Posted: Wed, 4th Jun 2008, 8:56am

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Simon K Jones

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I think there's two things you absolutely need to forge a successful film career:

1. Technical understanding of filmmaking. I'm not talking about artistic talent, but the raw knowledge of the filmmaking 'language'.

2. Strong networking abilities. The more people you know in related areas, the better your chances.

How you actually get those two things is entirely up to you, however. These days there are many roads to take and film school is just one. If you go to a good film school you'll get an excellent grounding in both. Though I imagine there's also many film schools that will prove utterly useless.

At the same time, you can quite easily get both from other sources if you put the work in.
Posted: Wed, 4th Jun 2008, 9:51am

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A Pickle

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I'll be honest. I liked it alot. There was one sharp cut that I recall, and I think I'd have made use of a few more saturated colors myself...

...but then, this wasn't my film. It really came together at the end, and I really thought it was pretty powerful.
Posted: Wed, 4th Jun 2008, 11:48am

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doppelganger

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A Pickle wrote:


...but then, this wasn't my film. It really came together at the end, and I really thought it was pretty powerful.
See I didnt think that it was very powerful at all because of the way they made it, I felt that ben and atoms videowrap commercial was more powerful and it was for computer software.

This video could have been powerful but in the end its just... basic.
Posted: Wed, 4th Jun 2008, 1:41pm

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Merrick

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Rebourne wrote:

I plan on going to NCarts filmschool.
Same here! I went there for their open house recently and it was really cool.
Posted: Wed, 4th Jun 2008, 8:53pm

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pdrg

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One of the most useful comments in this whole thread is "study something useful in case you don't make it in film".

Seriously, everyone wants to direct - it's cool, you get all the girls, people try to float your tender ego. Nobody wants to produce - you work 10 times harder, get the cruddy jobs, and get none of the fame. At least you get the money. A really really lucky director will starve for years before making a bit of cash here and there and one in a thousand will make serious money, so having a backup skill (even just basic business administration / bookkeeping) will float you whilst you try to get the glamorous jobs!
Posted: Thu, 5th Jun 2008, 3:16am

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Harvey

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As far as the video is concerned, it wasn't that bad. Sure it's not a masterpiece but I've seen far worse come out of film schools. Also, since when does basic equal bad?

Rebourne and Merrick World - I'll be starting at NCSA filmmaking in the fall. From everything I've heard about it and from my visit, it seems like a fantastic place and I'm sure I'll enjoy my time there. If either of you or anyone else plan on visiting it next year, let me know and I'll be happy to show you around.
Posted: Thu, 5th Jun 2008, 4:05am

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FreshMentos

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I just watched it. I actually liked it. The technicals were bare minimum, but at least the sound worked. I think that the story and message made up for it.

Let me just say that I'd be proud of myself if I made a film like that.
Posted: Thu, 5th Jun 2008, 8:40am

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Simon K Jones

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Harvey wrote:

Also, since when does basic equal bad?
This is a very good point. There's an annoying tendency these days - especially on the Internet, it woudl seem - to declare something as 'terrible' if it isn't perfect.

Just because something isn't really good, doesn't automatically make it really bad.
Posted: Thu, 5th Jun 2008, 9:09pm

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A Pickle

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I liked it. And I don't see how you can say it looked all that bad editing-wise... there was like, one cut that looked somewhat "off," and the colors looked a little unsaturated. That's about it, and the unsaturated colors may have been an intentional thing to convey a sad feeling.
Posted: Thu, 5th Jun 2008, 10:53pm

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Atom

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You know what saved that movie? The emotional music with a montage of shots and a well-spoken voiceover.

Yep, that's right. I said it.
Posted: Fri, 6th Jun 2008, 1:33am

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EvilDonut

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Rebourne wrote:

Ok, I was on youtube and I looked at the featured section and there was a student film from someone getting their MASTERS degree in Production and Direction. So I checked it out.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=h2Sk28NqLrc

And after it was done, I just thought to myself "How could anyone get their masters at a film school with THAT." It looked like an extremely basic film with no creativity at all... not to mention it looked like they used wmm.

Its got a good message I wont deny it but you dont know what its about until the end...

Your Thoughts, do you think their letting pretty much anyone get into film school, or am I just crazy...
Someone cue up my post about 'film schools'. I love being right. smile

As for you:

Movies are like art.

Don't get into a habit of 'judging' other peoples art.

I could just as easily judge yours, and rips yours to shreds too.

Remember when Matt and Trey came to Hollywood with this 'south park' ditty, and everyone laughed and talked about how stupid this piece of crap was?

Think Tom Cruise is going to win acting awards?

Don't judge. Concentrate on your own stuff.

d
Posted: Fri, 6th Jun 2008, 2:04am

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Travis Kunze

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The Movie was not to bad over all, it could have used a little better choreography, but heck even some or most professional movies can sometimes.

My plans for school is going to Dave (Digital Animation and Visual Effects) School International, and then to try and get into an internship with Lucas Arts. Before that i am going to go to the community collage to get all my basics done, and depending on how im doing when i done with school, ill proballey find a part time job while i work on my independent films and such, until i can afford to have a team and live off my business.
Posted: Fri, 6th Jun 2008, 4:57am

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doppelganger

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EvilDonut wrote:


Don't get into a habit of 'judging' other peoples art.

I could just as easily judge yours, and rips yours to shreds too.

Don't judge. Concentrate on your own stuff.

d
Huh... so no matter how bad it is (not saying its bad) I shouldnt question it, just say its art and leave it at that...

I never "ripped their movie to shreds", if it was just some movie they made when they got bored then fine... but this was a project at a filmschool that he's been going to for 5-6 years...

my opinion on this movie still stands...

(again I didnt think the video was bad, I thought it wasnt "getting my masters in production and direction material}
Posted: Fri, 6th Jun 2008, 5:11am

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CX3

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Rebourne wrote:



Huh... so no matter how bad it is (not saying its bad) I shouldnt question it, just say its art and leave it at that...

Gotta agree there... Nobody does that ha

Last edited Fri, 6th Jun 2008, 6:13am; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Fri, 6th Jun 2008, 5:56am

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ben3308

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I agree with CX3 and Rebourne, and by extension want to add to their assertions. I think 'judging' something has a connotation that is oft negative and derogatory when it shouldn't be.

Were I not able to critically judge films that I've seen, how could I examine and expose their strengths and weaknesses; faults and strongpoints? Moreover, if I can't find these things, then how do I take example from them and improve my own films? Every moderately successful (on a local level) film I've done is loosely based off of my judgments of other films and their pro's and con's. As someone who continues to accrued knowledge and skill almost primarily based off of how I view other films, and as someone who, for the past two years, has reviewed every single film I see I find judgment and criticism is critical to my own development.

These things aside, even if we consider film more of a story told than an art, as an acrylic painter I thrive on criticism- it helps me get better at what I do.

I dunno where you were going with that statement, Donut, but my beliefs are the complete antithesis.
Posted: Fri, 6th Jun 2008, 6:03am

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Zephlon

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I agree with Atom on the fact that all of my strength (that is if I have any) come from criticism from you guys, from my family, and close friends (which includes crew members on my films).

But I think a big problem is that all of us have been unfairly judged from time to time just because we arn't "hollywood" (or BBC'ers for you guys?)..."that was so unreal", or "that would never happen" stuff that Hollywood does all the time without second guesses (even sometimes w/o second guesses from us creative folk) But the second we do IT, some one jumps down our neck...so we are now more likely to jump down others throats for the same thing, its just a vicious cycle.

But I wont lie...there are movies out there, professional and independent, that just suck. I mean so many flaws, continuity errors, broken rules of film-making, corny lines, and really bad deaths...so many mistakes that its at the point where critique's are not verbally possible.

But the point comes down to taking what we disliked or liked in this film, and doing, or not doing those thing in our own shorts/features.
Posted: Fri, 6th Jun 2008, 8:28am

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new kid

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I agree with all of you.. This film is kinda basic.. I understand the message that the director wanna express.. But the effects is a lil to basic. I really really like the music though.. The ending is pretty cool. The sound effects is amazing but he did apply unnessasary sound effects on a few scene. I dont wanna give any negative comment. This film is indeed very good.. But for a masters graduate.. Its kinda dissapointing..
Posted: Sat, 7th Jun 2008, 12:58am

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EvilDonut

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Rebourne wrote:

EvilDonut wrote:


Don't get into a habit of 'judging' other peoples art.

I could just as easily judge yours, and rips yours to shreds too.

Don't judge. Concentrate on your own stuff.

d
Huh... so no matter how bad it is (not saying its bad) I shouldnt question it, just say its art and leave it at that...

I never "ripped their movie to shreds", if it was just some movie they made when they got bored then fine... but this was a project at a filmschool that he's been going to for 5-6 years...

my opinion on this movie still stands...

(again I didnt think the video was bad, I thought it wasnt "getting my masters in production and direction material}
Because if I started 'judging' films - this forum would turn into a warzone.

That person you're ripping on, could one day be someone you network or work with. Don't burn bridges in this industry. I know all those filmmaking books say this very clearly.

d
Posted: Sat, 7th Jun 2008, 7:10am

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doppelganger

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EvilDonut wrote:


That person you're ripping on, could one day be someone you network or work with. Don't burn bridges in this industry. I know all those filmmaking books say this very clearly.

d
...

Rebourne wrote:


I never "ripped their movie to shreds", if it was just some movie they made when they got bored then fine... but this was a project at a filmschool that he's been going to for 5-6 years...
Posted: Sat, 7th Jun 2008, 7:37am

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Atom

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Honestly EvilDonut, your approach to the situation of criticism and critique of amateur work, for which this community and film as an industry thrives on; suggests to me you haven't been around it much.

So you better not criticize someone's work because you might need their help one day? Hmmm........not really how it works. I've critiqued Bryce, CX3, and a load of others' work on here. Over and over, time and time again. But I'd still love to work with some of them someday, and I think if anything my opinion helps foster that connection.

Which, I know, is odd to me too. Since you talk yourself up as the movie-know-how-man. smile There's a difference between discussing something and unnecessarily flaming it. And if you can't see where the middle-ground is, so much so that you would make FXHome a "warzone" if you dared critique- I truly feel sorry for you.

Now go ahead, 'nuke' each one of my movies in the cinema with the warzone of "judging". I dare you. wink
Posted: Sat, 7th Jun 2008, 5:18pm

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RodyPolis

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Good or not, the YouTubers seemed to love it.
Posted: Sat, 7th Jun 2008, 7:46pm

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Plainly

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Yeah, I'd honestly rather have a bad review than no review at all. As long as it stays polite, really.
Posted: Sat, 7th Jun 2008, 8:38pm

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DVStudio

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I think I may to go into filmmaking as a carrer. I first need to come out with my second major poduction though- September 2008 ( I have done several smaller ones). Then we will see if we have enough talent.
Posted: Mon, 9th Jun 2008, 9:06am

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Simon K Jones

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EvilDonut wrote:

Because if I started 'judging' films - this forum would turn into a warzone.

That person you're ripping on, could one day be someone you network or work with. Don't burn bridges in this industry. I know all those filmmaking books say this very clearly.
You seem to be going by the YouTube definition of 'judging'. It doesn't mean being rude or unpleasant.

Here, people tend towards constructive criticism. Any filmmaker that doesn't like that or can't handle it should probably get out of the industry ASAP before his fragile ego breaks.

I'm with the others - constructive feedback from others (ESPECIALLY people I don't know) is vital to improving my skills. It's always been a massive part of my writing and has helped me get to the level I'm at now. Similarly, the FXhome products have all benefited massively from user and review feedback.

If we all avoided 'judging' anything, we'd still be living in the trees and walking on all fours.
Posted: Mon, 9th Jun 2008, 5:30pm

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EvilDonut

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Tarn wrote:

EvilDonut wrote:

Because if I started 'judging' films - this forum would turn into a warzone.

That person you're ripping on, could one day be someone you network or work with. Don't burn bridges in this industry. I know all those filmmaking books say this very clearly.
You seem to be going by the YouTube definition of 'judging'. It doesn't mean being rude or unpleasant.

Here, people tend towards constructive criticism. Any filmmaker that doesn't like that or can't handle it should probably get out of the industry ASAP before his fragile ego breaks.

I'm with the others - constructive feedback from others (ESPECIALLY people I don't know) is vital to improving my skills. It's always been a massive part of my writing and has helped me get to the level I'm at now. Similarly, the FXhome products have all benefited massively from user and review feedback.

If we all avoided 'judging' anything, we'd still be living in the trees and walking on all fours.
lol Trust me, you DO NOT want me 'critiquing' these *films* on fxhome. smile

d
Posted: Tue, 10th Jun 2008, 6:43am

Post 44 of 45

Balketh

Force: 344 | Joined: 2nd Apr 2006 | Posts: 224

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Okay, this has turned from less of a 'Discussion on filmmaking' to a 'discussion on film critiquing' to a 'discussion on forums as warzones', and back and forth between the last two.

This topic can, by all means, and I honestly think it should, continue to discuss, politely, topics such as critiquing, but I personally don't think it's really fitting in the filmMAKER's forum, a place generally designated for the discussion of filmmaking and the techniques therein.

If this topic were to veer back on track to, say, the original discussion of someone's film and, again, the techniques therein, that'd be great, if not, I recommend a move of topic to, say, the general forum.

I could be wrong in my understanding of the Filmmaker's forum, wherein it could be allowed to discuss techniques on critiquing. If so, please disregard the 'move topic' piece above.

Also, my two cents on the topic: I honestly would not have expected the short film to have qualified for a Master's Degree, hell, if I had put that in myself, I would have been expecting a fail, and honestly would have been disappointed with myself. But, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

My two cents on the other discussion: EvilDonut, if you think no one wants your 'critique' on their 'films', as you seem to have subliminally put it, don't give it then. No one specifically asked you to critique this particular film. You gave your opinion and that's that. There's no need to defend your opinion in this case, because it's an opinion, and if you know you believe it, don't argue it.

Just my two cents. biggrin
Posted: Tue, 10th Jun 2008, 8:17am

Post 45 of 45

Simon K Jones

Force: 27955 | Joined: 1st Jan 2002 | Posts: 11683

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Rating: +1

EvilDonut wrote:

lol Trust me, you DO NOT want me 'critiquing' these *films* on fxhome. smile
Adding 'lol', capitals, quotes, asterisks and a smiley doesn't really explain your statement any further, I'm afraid. smile

Congratulations on getting so many different forms of typographical expression into a single sentence, though!