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Vegas or Final Cut?

Posted: Wed, 30th Jul 2008, 2:24pm

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RyanMichael

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I need a new movie editor and I am deciding between Sony Vegas 8 platinum and Final Cut Express. Do they both support MPEG-2? The only thing I hate about Vegas is it has HORRIBLE title making. The problem with Final Cut is my my mac is the less powerful white macbook so it might run slow. What should I choose? I use allot of cool titles, color changes and correction, I rarely use fancy transitions besides fades. I make lots of movies with my friends (one has a Canon XL-2). We dont really post online much. We aren't beginners. We started out using WMM, then we used stuff like ulead/magix/pinnacle and all those kind of editors and we are going up a step in editors. We use Mac and Pc.
Posted: Wed, 30th Jul 2008, 2:42pm

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ben3308

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Vegas.

Simply put. Unless, of course, you want everything to look fancy, but in effect be more difficult to use... biggrin
Posted: Wed, 30th Jul 2008, 2:44pm

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Simon K Jones

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I've just started using Sony Vegas Platinum myself...so far only the demo, but I'm impressed. I wasn't really aware that a £50 editing package could be so good. It does make the price tag of stuff like Adobe Premiere look a little...silly.

Vegas is a bit non-standard, so takes some getting used to, but it has a fantastic help system. I like it.
Posted: Wed, 30th Jul 2008, 3:22pm

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RyanMichael

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The only thing I HATE about vegas is its titling process. You cant make a pro looking title with it.
Posted: Wed, 30th Jul 2008, 5:04pm

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Bryan M Block

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Out of the box Final Cut is going to have some cool stuff like LiveType and things- the tites in Vegas are really the biggest weak spot, although the new titler in Vegas 9 helps alot- it still isn't there yet. I use Vegas professionally and I think it's great- but it does have it's issues- you can get decent 2d titles out of it if you have some imaginatio, but there is no "preset" way of getting fancy 3D titles or anything out of it- it used to ship with BORIS grafitti which was a nice bonus fot that kind of work.

B

Here is someone creating a 3D effect in vegas by combining text with displacement maps- you just have to use your imagination in Vegas:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgXIYh60EPM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBYGXC_zD5Y&feature=related

Here someone has applied the light rays effect to text over a motion background-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsDJzBEMOpo&feature=related

You just have to figure out what you are trying to achieve.
Posted: Wed, 30th Jul 2008, 5:16pm

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Arktic

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Rating: +1

At the end of the day, it does depend on your own personal preference, because an NLE is an NLE, and they all basically do the same thing - whichever suits you better will probably be the right choice.

The easiest way to find that out will be to get demos of both programs, and trying them for yourself. That's more valuable than any advice from other people.

That said, however, there is one thing you might want to take into consideration - do you ever plan on moving into the film/media industry professionally? If you do (especially as an editor) then I'd recommend that you spend the time to learn Final Cut - and FCE is a good way to learn the basics of professional editing systems.

Why do I say that? From my experience in the media industry, there isn't a single company that I have encountered that use a Sony Vegas-based workflow. You can check this for yourself - look at all the advertised jobs on Mandy, ProductionBase, Shootingpeople, etc - almost all the edit positions will ask for experience of AVID, a good number will ask for Final Cut experience, and a few will want people who have experience with the Adobe Creative Suite / Premiere. But none will ask about Vegas, because it's a consumer-level product.

Of course, if you only plan on making movies as a hobby, then use whichever system is easiest to you. As I say, all NLEs do the same things. But if you're looking to move into editing , you'll be doing yourself a HUGE favour by learning Final Cut.

Hope this helps! smile

Cheers,
Arktic.
Posted: Wed, 30th Jul 2008, 5:21pm

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Bryan M Block

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Here is someone using vegas only to make lightsabers- not as well as FXHome - but considering it was never really designed for this..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W58qcV7Vog&feature=iv
Posted: Wed, 30th Jul 2008, 5:27pm

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Bryan M Block

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Arktic wrote:

At the end of the day, it does depend on your own personal preference, because an NLE is an NLE, and they all basically do the same thing - whichever suits you better will probably be the right choice.

The easiest way to find that out will be to get demos of both programs, and trying them for yourself. That's more valuable than any advice from other people.

That said, however, there is one thing you might want to take into consideration - do you ever plan on moving into the film/media industry professionally? If you do (especially as an editor) then I'd recommend that you spend the time to learn Final Cut - and FCE is a good way to learn the basics of professional editing systems.

Why do I say that? From my experience in the media industry, there isn't a single company that I have encountered that use a Sony Vegas-based workflow. You can check this for yourself - look at all the advertised jobs on Mandy, ProductionBase, Shootingpeople, etc - almost all the edit positions will ask for experience of AVID, a good number will ask for Final Cut experience, and a few will want people who have experience with the Adobe Creative Suite / Premiere. But none will ask about Vegas, because it's a consumer-level product.

Of course, if you only plan on making movies as a hobby, then use whichever system is easiest to you. As I say, all NLEs do the same things. But if you're looking to move into editing , you'll be doing yourself a HUGE favour by learning Final Cut.

Hope this helps! smile

Cheers,
Arktic.
Although I agree with most of what you posted- I think saying "Vegas is a consumer level product" is inaccurate- It is a pro-level product with a consumer user base. wink I edit all of our projects on Vegas while our AVID rots- There are some advantages to Vegas that AVID just doesn't have. I know another producer with two AVID edit bays in his post-production facility- and a Vegas system. Why? Because certain projects will be easier/faster/and better with Vegas workflow- it's just that simple. But you are 100% correct that all of the big houses use AVID and some have moved to FCP as an "alternative" - Vegas has some catching up to do - I admit, but I would bet that Vegas handles multi-format HD/HDV/ standard def footage in the same project as well or better than FCP wink
Posted: Wed, 30th Jul 2008, 5:31pm

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Bryan M Block

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ANother FX using only Vegas

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOCF2eG0VP0&feature=related
Posted: Wed, 30th Jul 2008, 5:38pm

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JornLavoll

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http://revver.com/video/1069152/love-in-space-part-1-age/

i like the text effects i made here (disclaimer: i'm a music and sound guy, not editorguy). i needed to made something subtle deep sea water'y for the voice over bit, and then more waterlike for the credtis bit smile

made in vegas. (the text bit comes after the tunnell bit)
Posted: Wed, 30th Jul 2008, 5:45pm

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Bryan M Block

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Walk through walls using only vegas no greenscreen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVSgy8Klspk&feature=related


My point isn't that these effects are perfect, but that the workflow and capabilities of Vegas are EXTREMELY robust and easy to use- look at how fast he creates this effect without much effort-masking, compositing, etc..
Posted: Wed, 30th Jul 2008, 6:40pm

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Bryan M Block

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Also-
Tarn and any of you guys- If you don't like the "non-standard" parts of Vegas- I can help you set it up to look and feel more like Premiere or AVID- there are "hidden" settings! But keep all of the amazing features of Vegas

-B
Posted: Wed, 30th Jul 2008, 7:45pm

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Thrawn

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Both Vegas and FCE are pretty strong NLE's, and it really depends on your preference. I own Final Cut Express, though I'm not particularly biased towards it. I bought it because I have a mac and because I wanted an introduction to advanced editing before jumping into Final Cut Pro. Vegas is also an excellent editor, but it's only for windows, which I why I didn't seriously consider it. If you can't live without advanced titles, go with FCE.
Posted: Wed, 30th Jul 2008, 7:58pm

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Bryan M Block

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ALso note that Vegas movie studio is about 100$ but the pro package with the Blu Ray DVD authoring tool is around $700.
B
Posted: Wed, 30th Jul 2008, 8:26pm

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FXhomer46784

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Between Final Cut and Vegas, that would be Vegas (which does support mpg2).

Yes, plenty of professionals use Vegas, they just don't advertise it because they're fearful of being seen as sub-professional. But Vegas is professional grade.

Just because no major studios use Vegas doesn't mean anything. If you're a good enough editor and a major company really wants to hire you, guess what, they'll let you choose the NLE you get to use.

Sure there are are a few a few features I miss on Veags that are included in Final Cut. But there are many more Vegas features that I miss in Final Cut. Adobe Premiere seems to combine the best of both worlds, if you can add that to your list.
Posted: Wed, 30th Jul 2008, 9:29pm

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JornLavoll

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fwiw this exact discussion is also happening at every music and sound production forum, where it is usually a version of "pro tools vs [insert any other software here]".
and the answer is usually that, yes, you can make music with any tools you want, but... if you work at productions that span multiple studios and sessions your beest of with pro tools.

and i am guessing that for example 3d graphic forum have their own local variation of the same topic..? smile
Posted: Wed, 30th Jul 2008, 9:41pm

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Bryan M Block

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JornLavoll wrote:

fwiw this exact discussion is also happening at every music and sound production forum, where it is usually a version of "pro tools vs [insert any other software here]".
and the answer is usually that, yes, you can make music with any tools you want, but... if you work at productions that span multiple studios and sessions your beest of with pro tools.

and i am guessing that for example 3d graphic forum have their own local variation of the same topic..? smile
Yes- we are not claiming a "better than" argument here- just letting people know that "pro features" are available in packages like Vegas.
Posted: Wed, 30th Jul 2008, 9:51pm

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ChampMM JRMMA

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Bryan M Block wrote:

Also-
Tarn and any of you guys- If you don't like the "non-standard" parts of Vegas- I can help you set it up to look and feel more like Premiere or AVID- there are "hidden" settings! But keep all of the amazing features of Vegas
what exactly are these hidden settings?

Champ
Posted: Wed, 30th Jul 2008, 10:58pm

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Bryan M Block

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The default setup of Vegas is to have the editing window at the bottom and to have the space bar put the cursor back to te begining of a clip and all that- there are hidden settings in Vegas to make new defaults- If you go up to Options>Preferences you will see several tabs to make adjustments HOWEVER if you click Options and then hold down the shift key while selecting Preferences- you will see hidden tab called INTERNAL that has all the magic settings-

wink razz
Posted: Thu, 31st Jul 2008, 8:11am

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Simon K Jones

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Arktic wrote:

At the end of the day, it does depend on your own personal preference, because an NLE is an NLE, and they all basically do the same thing - whichever suits you better will probably be the right choice.
I used to believe that 100%, until I tried to use Windows Movie Maker the other day. Sure, I knew it was going to be extremely basic, but I wasn't expecting the sheer level of clunky design and ridiculous restrictions. It is pretty much impossible to do anything decent with it.

Once you get into the Vegas/Premiere/FCP arena, though, you're right. razz
Posted: Thu, 31st Jul 2008, 9:26am

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videofxuniverse

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i have been using vegas for over a year and you cant find an easier program that give excellent results. for those that want 3d text effects, use 3ds max or after effects. Vegas is a final edit program not 3d program. i have recently been using premiere to try and expand my video editing abilities but i always use vegas for everything else
Posted: Thu, 31st Jul 2008, 1:27pm

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RyanMichael

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Will I be able to send livetype movies to vegas? My cousin/next door neighbor has it and if I want a title I can make it there and send it to my PC correct?
Posted: Thu, 31st Jul 2008, 3:17pm

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Bryan M Block

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RyanMichael wrote:

Will I be able to send livetype movies to vegas? My cousin/next door neighbor has it and if I want a title I can make it there and send it to my PC correct?
You can render the livetype movie out as a quicktime or avi and import that into vegas yes- but you have to render it. If you want to preserve the alpha channel you will have to render as 32bit uncompressed avi.
Posted: Thu, 31st Jul 2008, 8:05pm

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Dancamfx

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Its all about FCP in my opinion. The only NLE that can beat out FCP is avid.
Posted: Thu, 31st Jul 2008, 8:14pm

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Bryan M Block

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Dancamfx wrote:

Its all about FCP in my opinion. The only NLE that can beat out FCP is avid.
What do you mean "beat out"? This isn't a contest here. I know for a fact that there are things Vegas can do that AVID cannot- so what do you mean "beat out"? "Beating" is an opinion- discussing a feature set is about FACTS.
Posted: Thu, 31st Jul 2008, 8:29pm

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Atom

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I'm going to skip all that "it all depends on what you need/want/like" stuff and go from my experience with NLEs.

Put simply: FCP is too tedious in the wrong areas, and too over-simplified in others. And I'm not saying this is the case for everyone, but it's more than an understatement to say that Vegas is, offhand, easier-to-achieve-more-powerful-tools-more-quickly than FCP is able to. And it's because FCP, while incredibly powerful, is cumbersome in all the wrong places. Like Lenny from 'Of Mice and Men'.

After having a few years of not-quite-proficiency with FCP, I slaved over it day and night these past few weeks on a job on a Mac Pro and couldn't believe how slow the workflow was, constantly prerendering and having to take multiple steps, even with hotkeys, just to cut, fade-in/out, or lower the opacity on a clip. Stuff I assumed was just that simple from my time with Vegas and, even to a lesser extent, Premiere. And I don't understand it. How can you stand by something, on basic values, that literally takes more time and actions to do the same thing as something else? I'm talking basic cutting here, too. Sure, maybe that's preference-

But the immediate accessibility of Vegas cannot be matched by FCP. I've used all the programs pretty evenly for a while: Pinnacle, WMM, Premiere, Vegas, FCP- and my preference is Vegas.

But that's not simply because it "works best for me." No, there's something else to it that makes it better in many cases and ways. Accessibility, ease-of-use, and speed are the keys here: And I'd be hard-pressed to find someone who could say FCP beats Vegas in these regards.

FCP may be able to achieve some professional things with professional tools, and that's great. But in talking practicality, and understanding we're not all working on 'all-industry-standard' stuff- those professional things don't often matter. What matters is power-by-ease-of-use, speed, and- again - accessibility. Editing, in most cases, just comes down to how fast you can make something look good, flow, and work together. And the faster the output, the better, right? Well, for me that's it.

Vegas has it. And, in my experience, FCP does not. I could go into how Vegas' integration of very powerful, very fast color-tools directly into the NLE makes it completely own FCP and it's powerful but slow-to-the-max grading app supplement 'Color'- but that'd be picking at things on a pro/con level that is endless between the two NLEs. wink
Posted: Thu, 31st Jul 2008, 8:49pm

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Limey

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Bryan M Block wrote:

The default setup of Vegas is to have the editing window at the bottom and to have the space bar put the cursor back to te begining of a clip and all that- there are hidden settings in Vegas to make new defaults- If you go up to Options>Preferences you will see several tabs to make adjustments HOWEVER if you click Options and then hold down the shift key while selecting Preferences- you will see hidden tab called INTERNAL that has all the magic settings-

wink razz
wow, that actually worked. I've wanted the video preview on the top for a while and now I got it there.


Thanks man!


----


Anyway, I have vegas 6 and its real good. I haven't used FCP but I do know that vegas has some really good features in it.
Posted: Thu, 31st Jul 2008, 8:53pm

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CX3

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Arktic wrote:

At the end of the day, it does depend on your own personal preference, because an NLE is an NLE, and they all basically do the same thing - whichever suits you better will probably be the right choice.

The easiest way to find that out will be to get demos of both programs, and trying them for yourself. That's more valuable than any advice from other people.

That said, however, there is one thing you might want to take into consideration - do you ever plan on moving into the film/media industry professionally? If you do (especially as an editor) then I'd recommend that you spend the time to learn Final Cut - and FCE is a good way to learn the basics of professional editing systems.

Why do I say that? From my experience in the media industry, there isn't a single company that I have encountered that use a Sony Vegas-based workflow. You can check this for yourself - look at all the advertised jobs on Mandy, ProductionBase, Shootingpeople, etc - almost all the edit positions will ask for experience of AVID, a good number will ask for Final Cut experience, and a few will want people who have experience with the Adobe Creative Suite / Premiere. But none will ask about Vegas, because it's a consumer-level product.

Of course, if you only plan on making movies as a hobby, then use whichever system is easiest to you. As I say, all NLEs do the same things. But if you're looking to move into editing , you'll be doing yourself a HUGE favour by learning Final Cut.

Hope this helps! smile

Cheers,
Arktic.
I have to agree. It's fine if you want to use vegas but from my experience livin out here in Hollywood (Hollyweird) is that most all jobs I've seen editing positions for are for Avid and FCP. I have yet to see Sony Vegas used or even asked for out here. I'd suggest you learn FCP. Avid isn't too user friendly. FCP's workflow is really really great.

Chris's Final thoughts: Go with FCP man. And if you are ever asked to edit something for a company or anything, most likely they'll have FCP or Avid (Even more so FCP from what I've seen out here). It's great knowledge to have. If you're just making movies for fun, stick with Vegas - but if you want to obtain some knowledge that could in fact help you later on professionally, go with FCP.

Take care of yourselfs... and each other...

Last edited Thu, 31st Jul 2008, 8:59pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Thu, 31st Jul 2008, 8:56pm

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No Respite Productions

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Interesting to see the mention of Pinnacle above, I had a little time with this software once and wanted to smash my brains out after about half an hour wink

My experience of NLEs is limited, but I recently purchased Vegas 8.0 and extremely happy with it. A very robust and stable platform that does everything I need it to and a little bit more. 50 squid well spent!

As an aside, I wouldn't get too hung up about Vegas not having 3D effects or titles. This is not essential in any way shape or form to the making of a good movie and you can always get Blender to create the same effect with a bit of practice.
Posted: Thu, 31st Jul 2008, 9:11pm

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Bryan M Block

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CX3 wrote:

Arktic wrote:

At the end of the day, it does depend on your own personal preference, because an NLE is an NLE, and they all basically do the same thing - whichever suits you better will probably be the right choice.

The easiest way to find that out will be to get demos of both programs, and trying them for yourself. That's more valuable than any advice from other people.

That said, however, there is one thing you might want to take into consideration - do you ever plan on moving into the film/media industry professionally? If you do (especially as an editor) then I'd recommend that you spend the time to learn Final Cut - and FCE is a good way to learn the basics of professional editing systems.

Why do I say that? From my experience in the media industry, there isn't a single company that I have encountered that use a Sony Vegas-based workflow. You can check this for yourself - look at all the advertised jobs on Mandy, ProductionBase, Shootingpeople, etc - almost all the edit positions will ask for experience of AVID, a good number will ask for Final Cut experience, and a few will want people who have experience with the Adobe Creative Suite / Premiere. But none will ask about Vegas, because it's a consumer-level product.

Of course, if you only plan on making movies as a hobby, then use whichever system is easiest to you. As I say, all NLEs do the same things. But if you're looking to move into editing , you'll be doing yourself a HUGE favour by learning Final Cut.

Hope this helps! smile

Cheers,
Arktic.
I have to agree. It's fine if you want to use vegas but from my experience livin out here in Hollywood (Hollyweird) is that most all jobs I've seen editing positions for are for Avid and FCP. I have yet to see Sony Vegas used or even asked for out here. I'd suggest you learn FCP. Avid isn't too user friendly. FCP's workflow is really really great.

Final thoughts: Go with FCP man. And if you are ever asked to edit something for a company or anything, most likely they'll have FCP or Avid (Even more so FCP from what I've seen out here).
Yes- Vegas is definitely NOT in use in many production environments- so AVID and FCP are going to be the ones to learn for getting jobs. My sore spot is that I've been using Vegas for years- in a professional environment and the perception I get from people is that it "doesn't have pro features" or that it is for "editing home movies" and the truth is that they are COMPLETELY ignorant of what Vegas can and cannot do- I'm not talking workflow "preference" I'm talking about hardcore feature sets. Often people are AMAZED that you can do so much masking, compositing, grading, and keying RIGHT IN VEGAS without external software. Or the audio capabilities- Don't get me wrong, I understand "what the pros use" but I will again state that there are things that Vegas does that not even AVID will do- like ripping a DVD right to the timeline or dropping a flash file, mp3, HDV, HD, and standard DV clips all into the same project and not have it flinch. Most editors don't BELIEVE me when I tell them Vegas can do that- they just can't believe that it's possible in Vegas because their AVID or FCP system won't do it- so no one can!. If people don't want to use Vegas, that's cool with me- but I just don't want it to be based on ignorance of what the program is actually capable of, or assumptions that it doesn't have a "pro feature set" - It's not perfect, but neither is AVID or FCP.
Posted: Thu, 31st Jul 2008, 9:15pm

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Atom

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CX3 wrote:

I have to agree. It's fine if you want to use vegas but from my experience livin out here in Hollywood (Hollyweird) is that most all jobs I've seen editing positions for are for Avid and FCP. I have yet to see Sony Vegas used or even asked for out here......

.......if you are ever asked to edit something for a company or anything, most likely they'll have FCP or Avid (Even more so FCP from what I've seen out here). It's great knowledge to have. If you're just making movies for fun, stick with Vegas - but if you want to obtain some knowledge that could in fact help you later on professionally, go with FCP.
Sadly, I have to agree. In my time out on a job in LA last week, everyone I talked to asked if I knew FCP. And that's great to know. But like Avid, FCP is only being asked now because people have accepted that 'everyone uses it' and because one person thinks that, everyone accepts it. smile It's the same with Avid. Avid clearly isn't the best, and it's extremely clunky- but people hear it's 'industry standard' and so, without any knowledge, start saying that's all they'll accept.

And really, it's all a matter of ignorance because of this. Vegas is the underdog, no doubt. But not because it's any worse, not because it chooses to be: Because of sheer, dumb, word-of-mouth throughout the pro-ranges about FCP that has culminated over the years. And hey, great for FCP! I just hope Vegas can do the same.

And frankly, it's humorous to see them be coming from the depths, being the underdog, the darkhorse, when it's from Sony- the dominating electronics company. smile

Bryce and I were talking recently about this, and really it is true: If you're good enough they'll let you use what you work best with. Bryce told me he turned down a few jobs because they wouldn't let him work with Premiere CS3 or Vegas, and at first I thought that was silly. But I understand his choice. Stick with what you're best at, right?

Vegas is probably always going to be my choice NLE, and as the industry expands and FCP is able to do more, I'm starting to see Sony takes even greater leaps and bounds with Vegas. And this really excites me, not because it could be an 'industry standard', but because to me it means Vegas will continue to be a professional-level editor, just as good if not better than the now-dominating FCP.

And look at how many more people gush about it and swear by it even compared to a year ago!
Posted: Thu, 31st Jul 2008, 10:38pm

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RyanMichael

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Ok people. Thanks for the help! I think Ill get Vegas Platinum. I still want to ask questions so don't forget the thread. Can Vegas Platinum Improve the Color quality of my videos? (My Camera doesn't pick up color well)
I would just let you know that I have tried the trial but it is over now. Does it come with background Music/sound effects?
Posted: Thu, 31st Jul 2008, 10:43pm

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Thrawn

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because to me it means Vegas will continue to be a professional-level editor, just as good if not better than the now-dominating FCP.
Atom, don't forget there is a reason FCP is considered the standard. People don't flip a coin to decide which editor should be considered the standard. In the end, it all matters on your preference, and many prefer FCP over Vegas.
Posted: Thu, 31st Jul 2008, 10:48pm

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Dancamfx

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Bryan M Block wrote:

Dancamfx wrote:

Its all about FCP in my opinion. The only NLE that can beat out FCP is avid.
What do you mean "beat out"? This isn't a contest here. I know for a fact that there are things Vegas can do that AVID cannot- so what do you mean "beat out"? "Beating" is an opinion- discussing a feature set is about FACTS.
Mainly Avid is the industry standard for movies and final cut is rising in popularity among TV show and movie editors. Avid is by far the best NLE around, 85% of PROFESSIONAL editors will agree to that. so Yes, thats a fact. smile
Posted: Thu, 31st Jul 2008, 11:04pm

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Atom

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RyanMichael wrote:

Ok people. Thanks for the help! I think Ill get Vegas Platinum. I still want to ask questions so don't forget the thread. Can Vegas Platinum Improve the Color quality of my videos? (My Camera doesn't pick up color well)
I would just let you know that I have tried the trial but it is over now. Does it come with background Music/sound effects?
To answer your questions, RyanMichael:

-Yes, Vegas Platinum has pretty advanced (but easy-to-use) color correction and stylizing tools. I used grade all of my movies in Vegas 6 and now 8, if you want to see some of the results of these grading/color-correction tools. Examples from my work:




-No, as far as I know Vegas Platinum doesn't come with sound effects. But this isn't really a problem, as there are plenty of sources out there for free music and sound effects in great abundance. Check out the UFAQ for that. It has everything you'll need, essentially, that an NLE can't or won't give you.

Dancamfx, there's a HUGE difference between the best NLE and the most-used-professionally NLE out there. I think your statement is, for the most part, false because of this. Arktic for instance is a professional that uses Avid (I think). That means he's part of that 85% you're talking about: But that doesn't mean he thinks it's the best NLE. Quite the contrary, I think you'll come to find.

Thrawn wrote:

because to me it means Vegas will continue to be a professional-level editor, just as good if not better than the now-dominating FCP.
Atom, don't forget there is a reason FCP is considered the standard. People don't flip a coin to decide which editor should be considered the standard. In the end, it all matters on your preference, and many prefer FCP over Vegas.
But I think you're wrong on this point, Thrawn. No, people don't simply flip a coin to decide the industry standard- but many don't prefer FCP over Vegas. They simply use FCP. Most people, in fact, have never even seen Vegas, let alone used it. To prefer one over the other, really, you have at least know of the other. smile

Don't forget that. It's not that FCP excelled where Vegas didn't, it's not that people like FCP more. It's that the exposure FCP has is much greater than Vegas, and that's all by time and, really, word-of-mouth. Like I said, the same is true with Avid. It took FCP a long time to climb because Avid was around for longer, had more name-recognition value, and simply 'accepted as the standard'.

Granted, all are apt programs, but I don't think it works much different than what I described above.

Last edited Thu, 31st Jul 2008, 11:39pm; edited 2 times in total.

Posted: Thu, 31st Jul 2008, 11:26pm

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Bryan M Block

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Dancamfx wrote:

Bryan M Block wrote:

Dancamfx wrote:

Its all about FCP in my opinion. The only NLE that can beat out FCP is avid.
What do you mean "beat out"? This isn't a contest here. I know for a fact that there are things Vegas can do that AVID cannot- so what do you mean "beat out"? "Beating" is an opinion- discussing a feature set is about FACTS.
Mainly Avid is the industry standard for movies and final cut is rising in popularity among TV show and movie editors. Avid is by far the best NLE around, 85% of PROFESSIONAL editors will agree to that. so Yes, thats a fact. smile
NO THAT IS NOT A FACT- IT IS AN OPINION AMONG PEOPLE WHO HAVE PROBABLY NEVER USED THE OTHER SOFTWARE. I work with PROFESSIONAL editors all day long- most are AVID heads, some are FCP heads- and they both have one thing in common- they KNOW NOTHING ABOUT VEGAS and "assume" it can't do things that their software of choice can do- and in all honesty, there are some things that each software can do that the others can't. If you seem to know so much about it, why don't you please list all the feature sets out so we can see what AVID does that Vegas can't. How much time have YOU spent editing on an AVID? I can tell you that it has it's strong points but that it is also slow and clunky in alot of ways and it has never made me want to quit using Vegas to use the AVID. You can parrot back whatever "opinion" you want- but it is not a "FACT" that AVID is the best editor- it is an opinion by an uninformed user base- You wanna talk about matchback for film and all those tools? I'll give that to AVID in spades- but 90% of NLE editors out there are working with video, not film and it becomes irrelevant.
Posted: Thu, 31st Jul 2008, 11:44pm

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Fill

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Bryan, calm down. razz

That statistic is bull. Along with the "80% of Graphic Design is done on Macs LOL" stereotype. Baloney. I've been to multiple Vegas sessions, and the work flow is great. To be honest, Bryan, I wasn't impressed by any of the effects achieved by Vegas in those Youtube videos. I'd much rather prefer Motion or After Effects over Vegas for special effects.

I have similar experiences with Final Cut Pro as Atom did. One of my bosses had a Mac Pro, and I was editing some of his videos for about a week. It was a very clunky, choppy work flow, and I was driven mad by the damn thing. I'm a Premiere guy, so maybe I don't have a say in this, but from what I've seen FCP isn't all the great in the times I've had to use it. I've messed with Vegas, and even though it's not the most pretty interface, it gets the job done, and it's lightning fast, but I really would be against using it for special effects.

Like I said, I'm a Premiere guy, and switching between AE and Premiere is cake. biggrin

Bottom line: If you want experience, get Final Cut, but if you want to get something done quick and easy, get Vegas.
Posted: Thu, 31st Jul 2008, 11:58pm

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Bflat5

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Bryan M Block wrote:

Also-
Tarn and any of you guys- If you don't like the "non-standard" parts of Vegas- I can help you set it up to look and feel more like Premiere or AVID- there are "hidden" settings! But keep all of the amazing features of Vegas

-B
I'll take any advanced help you're willing offer. smile I love Vegas, but I have Pro 7, not the platinum or smaller versions. I'm about to upgrade to Vegas 8.
Posted: Fri, 1st Aug 2008, 1:14am

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Dancamfx

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Bryan M Block wrote:

Dancamfx wrote:

Bryan M Block wrote:

Dancamfx wrote:

Its all about FCP in my opinion. The only NLE that can beat out FCP is avid.
What do you mean "beat out"? This isn't a contest here. I know for a fact that there are things Vegas can do that AVID cannot- so what do you mean "beat out"? "Beating" is an opinion- discussing a feature set is about FACTS.
Mainly Avid is the industry standard for movies and final cut is rising in popularity among TV show and movie editors. Avid is by far the best NLE around, 85% of PROFESSIONAL editors will agree to that. so Yes, thats a fact. smile
NO THAT IS NOT A FACT- IT IS AN OPINION AMONG PEOPLE WHO HAVE PROBABLY NEVER USED THE OTHER SOFTWARE. I work with PROFESSIONAL editors all day long- most are AVID heads, some are FCP heads- and they both have one thing in common- they KNOW NOTHING ABOUT VEGAS and "assume" it can't do things that their software of choice can do- and in all honesty, there are some things that each software can do that the others can't. If you seem to know so much about it, why don't you please list all the feature sets out so we can see what AVID does that Vegas can't. How much time have YOU spent editing on an AVID? I can tell you that it has it's strong points but that it is also slow and clunky in alot of ways and it has never made me want to quit using Vegas to use the AVID. You can parrot back whatever "opinion" you want- but it is not a "FACT" that AVID is the best editor- it is an opinion by an uninformed user base- You wanna talk about matchback for film and all those tools? I'll give that to AVID in spades- but 90% of NLE editors out there are working with video, not film and it becomes irrelevant.
Calm down dude, the statement that 85% of professional editors use avid IS a Fact. The statement that avid is better than vegas IS an Opinion. But that opinion is shared by many among many editors in the industry.
Posted: Fri, 1st Aug 2008, 1:43am

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Bryce007

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Avid has more features than Vegas. Premiere pro CS3 has more features than Vegas. FCP has more features than Vegas.


None of those above named NLE's are going to make a difference if you

A. You don't like the interface.

B. You aren't familiar with it.


Admittedly, I prefer Premiere CS3's color tools to the ones in Vegas. And FCP has some nice ones as well.

But Vegas has a certain "Workflow" to it, that just works. It's also rock-solid stable, and supports virtually every format on the planet. (And when they release the 64-Bit version this Fall? I'm already set with Vista 64. Bring the heat Sony!)
Posted: Fri, 1st Aug 2008, 3:17am

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EvilDonut

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Kids kids.

All these opinions are pointless. Everyone has opinions - so what.

Bottom line, IF YOU WANT A JOB (ie: working for somebody, doing what some old office guy tells you every day, receiving a paycheck) YOU USE WHAT THEY USE.

And if 85% (I kinda disagree but whatever) use Avid - then guess what you need to learn to get a job? Avid.

That's like me being hired by Blizzard and on Day 1 telling everyone in the company to switch to Blender because "I think it's better". Quick way to last only one day on the job.

Most of yous will one day be working for someone (hate to say it, but stats prove me right). It's your choice based upon doing it your way, or have it forced on you later, and a corresponding decrease in salary to make up for it.

I liked Pascal, but became a god at C++. Guess which language made me a killing in corporate america?

d
Posted: Fri, 1st Aug 2008, 3:35am

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Atom

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EvilDonut wrote:

I liked Pascal, but became a god at C++. Guess which language made me a killing in corporate america?
From how vague and wildly-changing you make your career position seem, I'd guess neither. biggrin
Posted: Fri, 1st Aug 2008, 4:20am

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Bryan M Block

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This is the discussion I didn't want to get into the whole "better than" discussion. I'm not, nor have I EVER argued that Vegas is "better than" anything! For Chrissakes I work in this field for a living and everything is AVID AVID AVID. With occassional deferences to FCP. Premiere is considered a joke most of the time- but again, that is by the totally uniformed "professional" editor. wink Most "professional" editors I work with don't have the time to sit there and compare all these NLE's because they are WORKING with the same tools they have been working with for 10 years. OF COURSE professional editors are going to claim "AVID is the best!" because they are working on a 20K AVID systtem with all the plugins and have been using AVID for 10 years- but confront them with a laptop and FCP, Vegas, or premiere pro and they are usually STUNNED into silence at what can be achieved and how easily because they have bought into the LIE that only AVID can do blah,blah, blah... Not everyone mind you- I just get very defensive when there are claims made against a product (yes, it's a product I know and love and use) that are just done out of ignorance instead of fact based comparison. Of course no one in Hollywood is cutting on Vegas- and that means NOTHING- to say that there is not a professional feature set or that Premiere or FCP has "more" features is just plain ignorant IMO. Different features? SURE- More? Meh...?

Yes, the effects I posted from YouTube were underwhelming- but most of what I see here is unimpressive wink These were just to demonstrate that these effects can be achieved quickly and easily in an NLE wihtout external special software- and doing similar effects, at least in the AVID would be much more tedious and time consuming. I know, because I use both! Dedicated compositing and FX software is always a "better" alternative in some ways, that wasn't the point.
Posted: Fri, 1st Aug 2008, 4:42am

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Thrawn

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Bryan, no need to get uptight and defensive. We're all expressing our opinions, we're not attacking Vegas or saying VEGAS SCKS, AVID PWNS!!!

Atom, I see your point.
Posted: Fri, 1st Aug 2008, 6:22am

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EvilDonut

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Atom wrote:

EvilDonut wrote:

I liked Pascal, but became a god at C++. Guess which language made me a killing in corporate america?
From how vague and wildly-changing you make your career position seem, I'd guess neither. biggrin
People are gonna laugh - but if you wanna be a master at 3d animation, modeling, visual fx, engines, networks, etc. etc. Get a degree in math. Learning will be childs play from thereon. When you master mathematical logic and algorithms - nothing will stump you, ever.

d
Posted: Fri, 1st Aug 2008, 7:22am

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ben3308

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EvilDonut wrote:

When you master mathematical logic and algorithms - nothing will stump you, ever.
Except women, one would suppose.
Posted: Fri, 1st Aug 2008, 8:56am

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Bryce007

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ben3308 wrote:

EvilDonut wrote:

When you master mathematical logic and algorithms - nothing will stump you, ever.
Except women, one would suppose.
This would seem especially true, if one were to claim himself a "master of mathematical logic and algorithms"
Posted: Fri, 1st Aug 2008, 9:45am

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Atom

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Bryce007 wrote:

ben3308 wrote:

EvilDonut wrote:

When you master mathematical logic and algorithms - nothing will stump you, ever.
Except women, one would suppose.
This would seem especially true, if one were to claim himself a "master of mathematical logic and algorithms"
Which would likely explain EvilDonut's seemingly always-grouchy demeanor. As it would appear, he's tried such a claim before. smile
Posted: Fri, 1st Aug 2008, 1:33pm

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Bryan M Block

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OK guys I've taken a deep breath-
seriously, I'm not so much interested in "defending" Vegas so much as encouraging a fact based discussion aboutfeatures and application of each piece of software. What set me off was the initial claim that "It's all about FCP, the only thing that beats it out is AVID" which is a vague opinion- also the statement that Vegas somehow lacked a "professional" set of features. That just simply isn't true.

I think we should be specifying however that this is comparing Vegas PRO, not the $99 "platinum movie studio" product.

Carry on.
Posted: Fri, 1st Aug 2008, 1:43pm

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Biblmac

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Sorry bryan but this whole thing is about platinum(not to be rude). I thought this all started with a question about platinum? Did they get there answer completely? Is the discusion to them over? If so carry on but otherwise we really need to make sure they get their question answered.
Posted: Fri, 1st Aug 2008, 2:00pm

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Bryan M Block

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Biblmac wrote:

Sorry bryan but this whole thing is about platinum(not to be rude). I thought this all started with a question about platinum? Did they get there answer completely? Is the discusion to them over? If so carry on but otherwise we really need to make sure they get their question answered.
Ah- gotcha, but the conversation evolved. yes Vegas platinum supports MPEG 2, and in my original post I was saying that out of the box FCP will have live type and that sort of thing.- But then shouldn't FCP be FCP studio or whatever the cutdown version is to compare apples to apples?

Also, yes- the platinum pro pack includes the following: Software applications featured in the Pro Pack are Sound Forge Audio Studio, additional Cinescore themes, and 1001 Sound Effects. Also included are NewBlue 3D Transitions and Effects and for a limited time, a 2 GB Sony Microvault USB flash drive.

So you are getting sound effects and loopable music as well as a cut down audio editor and new effects and things for about $120 US. That is really, really unbelievable.

Here is your comparison chart:
http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/moviestudiope/compare
Posted: Fri, 1st Aug 2008, 2:45pm

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RyanMichael

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And I was also talking about Final Cut EXPRESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOT PRO!!!!!!!!!!!! where the hell did the idea that I was talking about the pro versions come from?
Posted: Fri, 1st Aug 2008, 3:23pm

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Bryan M Block

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RyanMichael wrote:

And I was also talking about Final Cut EXPRESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOT PRO!!!!!!!!!!!! where the hell did the idea that I was talking about the pro versions come from?
My fault- as the conversation evolved the terms "Vegas" and "FCP" were being compared, and in my line of work no one uses the "consumer home movie" versions of software- so I was making direct comparisons-

Sorry about that. redface

Now- in my previous post there is a link to the Vegas comparison chart. The new "Platinum Pro Pack" seems like an AMAZING deal and includes sound effects, music, and a cut down version of Sound Forge.

Cheers-
B
Posted: Fri, 1st Aug 2008, 3:38pm

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RyanMichael

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I searched it and on google shopping it gave me this. VEGAS 9!!!! Is It true?


Posted: Fri, 1st Aug 2008, 3:43pm

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Bryan M Block

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RyanMichael wrote:

I searched it and on google shopping it gave me this. VEGAS 9!!!! Is It true?

Yes- but here we go again wink This is VEGAS MOVIE STUDIO not Vegas PRO.

So yes- the Movie Studio 9 Platinum Pro Pak contains everything I mentioned.

Vegas PRO 9 is not yet released.
Posted: Fri, 1st Aug 2008, 3:45pm

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RyanMichael

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So all those ARE real? It doesn't mention them on the website!
Posted: Fri, 1st Aug 2008, 4:07pm

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Bryan M Block

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RyanMichael wrote:

So all those ARE real? It doesn't mention them on the website!
Not to be a total prick, but they are right on the front page of Sony's software site:

http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/


tard
Posted: Fri, 1st Aug 2008, 4:10pm

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RyanMichael

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I was on there site just now and it wasnt there. But thanks.
Posted: Fri, 1st Aug 2008, 4:24pm

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Bryan M Block

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RyanMichael wrote:

I was on there site just now and it wasnt there. But thanks.
Probably the browser cache-

wink
Posted: Fri, 1st Aug 2008, 4:26pm

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Tim L

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The Vegas Movie Studio 9 graphics on the Sony site probably just went up this morning or maybe late last night (I've been watching...). Sony announced a while back that the VMS 9 packages would be available "in August". The Sony website still doesn't seem to be offering them yet for sale or download/upgrade, but could be any day now.

I would expect that VMS 9 product is already moving into retail channels and online sellers, who are probably trying to clear out their inventory of VMS 8 products. If anybody buys version 8, and version 9 comes out less than 30 days later, Sony is really good about giving you a free upgrade to the next version.

The VMS 9 Platinum Pro Pack edition looks like a fantastic deal. Look for academic pricing if you qualify, and it should be a very sweet deal.
http://www.academic-collegiate.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=sony+vegas

(I currently use Vegas Pro 7 -- still have the uninstalled upgrade to Vegas Pro 8 sitting on my desk... for almost a year now...)
Posted: Fri, 1st Aug 2008, 4:33pm

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Bryan M Block

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Tim L wrote:

The Vegas Movie Studio 9 graphics on the Sony site probably just went up this morning or maybe late last night (I've been watching...). Sony announced a while back that the VMS 9 packages would be available "in August". The Sony website still doesn't seem to be offering them yet for sale or download/upgrade, but could be any day now.

I would expect that VMS 9 product is already moving into retail channels and online sellers, who are probably trying to clear out their inventory of VMS 8 products. If anybody buys version 8, and version 9 comes out less than 30 days later, Sony is really good about giving you a free upgrade to the next version.

The VMS 9 Platinum Pro Pack edition looks like a fantastic deal. Look for academic pricing if you qualify, and it should be a very sweet deal.
http://www.academic-collegiate.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=sony+vegas

(I currently use Vegas Pro 7 -- still have the uninstalled upgrade to Vegas Pro 8 sitting on my desk... for almost a year now...)
Yeah- I'm kind of a Vegas hound, so I think I read about the VMS 9 platinum thing a little while back in an online news release, so it seemed like older news to me- that platinum pro pak is an AWESOME deal. I wonder when Pro 9 will be released? I'm almost against a wall here having to upgrade to Pro8 because of Vista (my XP box is finally dying... mad mad mad and I will be forced to upgrade, which means spending hundreds and hundreds of dollars upgrading my core apps- which I'm not happy about...) when I get a Vista box. I'm trying desperately to finish Motor Lodge and I've rebuilt my XP box TWICE during that edit- It's time to get a quick fix...so I may be getting a smaller Vista box in the interm.
Posted: Fri, 1st Aug 2008, 11:59pm

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pdrg

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Joining in this bun fight a little late, and not wishing to stir up the excitement all over again, but somewhere back a few pages someone asked a question about what Avid systems can do that Vegas or FCP couldn't do? Many things, but we're not comparing like with like, they're looking to different market segments.

As Bryan noted, all the film matchback stuff for starters. Then there's the script-based editing (taking a proper continuity marked up script and just feeding in the markup to give immediate editing choices). Media Composer even has a semi-automated version which attempts to read the script and sync it to the audio on the shots in the bin by magic - now that is very clever, potentially saving hours of sync work.

I don't know if Vegas supports it yet, I hope it does, but group editing was only available from Avids for quite a while - shoot multi camera, sync on a frame, then edit with hotkeys just like a vision mixer edit. That's a cool feature, one I'm using for a corporate seminar to reduce the edit burden.

Timecode burn-in? Not always available on lesser systems. Editing and conforming 1080p footage? Many domestic tools top out at 1080i. Choice of capture compression codec? Some systems edit in native HDV which has inherent degradation issues associated. Upgrade and interoperability path? With most other NLE's there's not much thought to working as a big team with media server support, file transfer and interpretation, etc, whereas that's Avids heritage. Avids are also paranoid about backups, keeping copies in the "Avid Attic" for emergencies. Avid looks and works exactly the same on PC and Mac and dedicated hardware. It has real-time true-HD acceleration available through the Mojo range.

This might sound like I'm going to say get an avid, but I'm not. The Avid UI is a bit of an oddity - a thing of beauty if you're used to it, but horrible if you're not. For many jobs it's not the ideal tool, for beginners it's absolutely the wrong tool, don't get one unless you're planning on working in the industry and want to get a job more easily. Or get an awesome Quantel instead. Or another pro system. But if you just want to edit home movies do NOT get an Avid. Instead try a few demo programmes that will work on your hardware, and pick one.

I didn't want to open old battle wounds, but someone did quite literally ask, I haven't compared all Avid versions with all other NLE versions, but there's probably something in the list that'll be valid for each system, and I hope it helps inform the question. It's an unfair comparison, I know, but I've tried to compare lower Avid versions in the above to make it fairer!
Posted: Sat, 2nd Aug 2008, 1:31am

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EvilDonut

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FXhomer46784 wrote:

If you're a good enough editor and a major company really wants to hire you, guess what, they'll let you choose the NLE you get to use.
Where do you get that? ExperiencesIMakeUp.com?!

I have NEVER seen that happen. Unless it's some 2-person video department of a non-media company.

Companies invest MILLIONS on software/hardware to get the job done. Talent, Equipment, Licenses, Training, etc. They're not going to throw $5M and retrain 200 people just because a new package offers a cuter way of doing something. Look at how badly corporate america has adopted Vista - they haven't! Even Mac is ignored. Better is not always best.

d
Posted: Sat, 2nd Aug 2008, 3:15am

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Bryan M Block

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pdrg wrote:

Joining in this bun fight a little late, and not wishing to stir up the excitement all over again, but somewhere back a few pages someone asked a question about what Avid systems can do that Vegas or FCP couldn't do? Many things, but we're not comparing like with like, they're looking to different market segments.

As Bryan noted, all the film matchback stuff for starters. Then there's the script-based editing (taking a proper continuity marked up script and just feeding in the markup to give immediate editing choices). Media Composer even has a semi-automated version which attempts to read the script and sync it to the audio on the shots in the bin by magic - now that is very clever, potentially saving hours of sync work.

I don't know if Vegas supports it yet, I hope it does, but group editing was only available from Avids for quite a while - shoot multi camera, sync on a frame, then edit with hotkeys just like a vision mixer edit. That's a cool feature, one I'm using for a corporate seminar to reduce the edit burden.

Timecode burn-in? Not always available on lesser systems. Editing and conforming 1080p footage? Many domestic tools top out at 1080i. Choice of capture compression codec? Some systems edit in native HDV which has inherent degradation issues associated. Upgrade and interoperability path? With most other NLE's there's not much thought to working as a big team with media server support, file transfer and interpretation, etc, whereas that's Avids heritage. Avids are also paranoid about backups, keeping copies in the "Avid Attic" for emergencies. Avid looks and works exactly the same on PC and Mac and dedicated hardware. It has real-time true-HD acceleration available through the Mojo range.

This might sound like I'm going to say get an avid, but I'm not. The Avid UI is a bit of an oddity - a thing of beauty if you're used to it, but horrible if you're not. For many jobs it's not the ideal tool, for beginners it's absolutely the wrong tool, don't get one unless you're planning on working in the industry and want to get a job more easily. Or get an awesome Quantel instead. Or another pro system. But if you just want to edit home movies do NOT get an Avid. Instead try a few demo programmes that will work on your hardware, and pick one.

I didn't want to open old battle wounds, but someone did quite literally ask, I haven't compared all Avid versions with all other NLE versions, but there's probably something in the list that'll be valid for each system, and I hope it helps inform the question. It's an unfair comparison, I know, but I've tried to compare lower Avid versions in the above to make it fairer!
Ah- the voice of reason! Pdrg- thy name is level headedness- oy!

yes, that script feature in the new versions of AVID is a really cool- really! thing, and the film matchback is obviously there in spades in AVID- but yes, Vegas does the timecode burn-in thing smile and I'll have to look into the 1080p thing- in general Vegas is agnostic, and has been for a long time- resolution independent- AMEN. But again, I praise thee mighty saint Patrick (is that your name!?) as comparing a 20K AVID system with a $700 software suite almost seems insane- but what is insane is that that $700 editing suite can get you so far compared to the 20K AVID.

Now- my experience hands on is with AVID Express- yet when I am directing an PAYING for an edit at $250 per hour (that's the going rate here in Columbus), I go to a post facility with big, fancy AVIDS and they are often AMAZED because they are completely ignorant of what Vegas can and cannot do- they just don't know- it's not even on their radar- and I'm often amazed at how easy some things are in Vegas that aren't so easy in the AVID- I've never cut anything in Vegas and said "gee I wish I was using the AVID" but I have said the reverse...many times.

.04
B
Posted: Sat, 2nd Aug 2008, 1:56pm

Post 65 of 76

Arktic

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Just to stick my oar back in and respond to a few things with my own opinions -

FXhomer46784 wrote:

If you're a good enough editor and a major company really wants to hire you, guess what, they'll let you choose the NLE you get to use.
I totally agree with what most other people have said to this - unless you're talking about very small independent production companies, that's not really that likely to happen.

The way it has worked in all my experience of the 'real world' industry, is the following:
  • Project/Programme Execs will appoint a Production Manager or Edit Producer.
  • The PM or Edit Prod. locates a facilities house where the edit will be done, a decision primarily based on what facilities houses are available at the time, what services they offer, their location, and the cost implications - remember, this is before any editors have even been asked on board.
  • Once the deal has been done with the facilities house that the PM will start to look for editors - and at this point the decision on which system to edit on is almost certainly decided.
If an editor comes along and they say "Ok, I really want to work on this project, but I'll only edit it in Premiere", but that's not an option that the facilities house provides, then there's no way in hell that the PM will go through the hassle of re-locating the entire edit to suit the editor. And if the edit is being done in-house, you're even less likely to find a production company who are willing to change their entire system just to suit an editor, as EvilDonut points out.

Atom wrote:

But in talking practicality, and understanding we're not all working on 'all-industry-standard' stuff- those professional things don't often matter.
This is true enough - BUT if you do plan on moving into the industry, all those 'professional things' will matter, which is why they will use NLEs that incorporate those features - so you'll be putting yourself at a disadvantage if you cant use those systems. As I say, if you're just doing it as a hobby, then you can get perfectly pro-level results with almost any NLE.

Atom wrote:

like Avid, FCP is only being asked now because people have accepted that 'everyone uses it' and because one person thinks that, everyone accepts it. It's the same with Avid. Avid clearly isn't the best, and it's extremely clunky- but people hear it's 'industry standard' and so, without any knowledge, start saying that's all they'll accept
I agree that people often hear that something is 'industry standard' and accept that it must be the 'best' without really thinking about it. You know how much I can find fault with AVID, but at the same time, there are reasons that AVID is the industry-standard - and it's for these reasons that Vegas is not, and will not be, a 'professional level' product, imho.

It's not just because 'someone decided' that AVID should be the industry standard; for example, whilst it might not be important to a home user, a media asset management system is a MUST HAVE when you get up to industry standard. You simply can't have an offline/pre-grade/online/grade (or similar) workflow with an NLE that doesn't have a shared content system such as AVID's Unity. More recently, Apple have developed Final Cut Server, which is their answer to Unity - and whilst it's not as established, it does mean that in the next few years, Final Cut will see more post production houses adopting it, and FCP may fully rival or even overtake AVID as the 'industry standard'.

But as far as I'm aware, Vegas doesn't come with this kind of capability; so it's for that kind of reason (along with the others that pdrg mentioned) that it won't be adopted by any post production facilities houses, and why it won't become 'industry standard'.

But as I say, I don't think ANY NLE is 'the best', because it DOES depend on what you feel most comfortable using. If you get the best results in the shortest time using Vegas, then that's cool. But different people have different preferences - for example, I am most comfortable using Premiere, which is why I choose to edit with it at home.

But I've also had to learn AVID and FCP as part of my career - and I think that because you're much more likely to encounter these programmes in the 'real world', if you plan on getting into the industry, then not learning these programmes will make it much harder to find work smile

Cheers,
Arktic.
Posted: Sat, 2nd Aug 2008, 4:15pm

Post 66 of 76

Bryan M Block

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I feel this conversation is back on track thanks to pdrg and Arktic.

One thing I still want to plug is that AVID is the industry standard first and foremost because it was the FIRST of it's kind. Not that long ago it was AVID or nothing, and I think that some of those other cool features are less of a consideration really. Most editors I work with rarely if ever are doing a film matchback. Some don't even know how to use that script feature (One guy I know in particular uses it all the time- the others- never!) and the whole Unity thing (which is a great feature) is really only going to come into play at post houses with several suites. That may be the norm in some markets, but here I usually edit with a guy that has two suites, a guy with ONE, OR a house that has like 6- the house makes use of the Unity system (although I've sat in the suites for long periods of time while I watched that FAIL massively a couple of times...) but the guy with two suites doesn't really make much use of it, nor does the guy with one suite. The other thing to consider is that Vegas doesn't NEED something like Unity because it doesn't handle media the same way! If the assets are on a server somewhere- everything in Vegas is just a reference to the original media, which is what makes it fast and light.

the biggest downfalls I see with vegas are:

1. no support of Panasonic workflows including P2 and DVCPro50- and that isn't likely to change because of the competition between SOny and Panasonic with formats- HOWEVER I have read that you can buy a codec pack for Vegas for about $300 to support those formats. There is also no support for the RED camera in Vegas yet, which is a shame because of it's resolution independence- it should be a perfect match!

2. The titler, even in version 8 is just NOT UP TO SNUFF- that said, the basic titler in AVID always gave me fits as well building bullet point lists and all that- Some AVID editors I know still do all of that work in Photoshop like I do. smile Some don't- they use AVID Marquee

3. Native Export to FLV from the Vegas timeline. Now, I say this knowing that I couldn't even export an MPEG 2 from the AVID express timeline! You had to do a Quicktime reference file and then convert that in Sorenson or some other compression suite. You get pretty good results, but with an extra step or two in AVID- the Vegas MPEGS also looked SUPERIOR IMO to the ones I got from the AVID- you can find these comparisons online. Vegas just does this piece particularly well.

Now - having said all that,one thing I've noticed in AVID that drove me nuts and that I didn't expect was I had a talking head talent and I wanted a slow push in post to introduce the section. There was a NOTICABLE softening of the DV image as soon as the push started- it was incredibly notciable- and this was on an AVID Composer suite. The same clip done in Vegas was MUCH better with that move! Again, this is the kind of thing that shocks AVID editors because they have learned to live with things like that and just don't know it can be any better.

Vegas also does pretty decent slo-mo in post.

AVID has had multicam editing for awhile now- Vegas only had it available as seperate plugin or script until version 8.

AVID has the advantage of having a million plugins available to accomplish things like that better than the native capabilities however- and honestly, if I were working in a post house with lots of tape decks and formats ranging from BetaCam, D2, D5, and DVCPro5o as well as Umatic 3/4" and all of that- AVID is going to have the hardware interface support to do all of that- Vegas DOES NOT. Vegas is a digital / digital tape only solution really- and there is only one hardware card I know of available for it.

I think Arktic really summed up the rest of it.
Posted: Sat, 2nd Aug 2008, 6:11pm

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RyanMichael

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END
Posted: Sat, 2nd Aug 2008, 6:11pm

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EvilDonut

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Good post Arktic.

Remember, no VP has been fired for choosing the industry standard (eg: AVID). smile

d
Posted: Sun, 3rd Aug 2008, 1:38pm

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Hybrid-Halo

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Rating: +1

I agree with the majority of the above posts - however.

Industry standard is a bad term, offline editing - for which avid/final cut pro are most heavily used is primarily an art rather than a technical operation therefore I don't think the editing software you learn with is of particular importance.

It would be pretty tricky to learn the in-depth aspects of Avid on a home computer due to the lack of industry level hardware available. I've spent a fair amount of time around avids now and was able to use it on a basic level straight off the bat simply because it was similiar to every other editing package out there.

With the career ladder in mind, i.e. few people usually go straight into an editing role and instead, are Runners, Tape Operators, Edit Assistants first - in my mind that leaves a pretty lengthy space of time within which to transport knowledge of editing in one application across to another.

So ultimately - how important is the choice of software to your editing career right now? Not very. Though the safest choices would be either Final Cut or Avid. Focus on the art of constructing a story and your timings primarily and cater your software skill set towards the direction your career moves.

-Matt

p.s. - Bryan's right in that Avid is only the standard because it was the first and a lot of companies have made big investments into avid systems. Over in the UK there is movement towards FCP (the BBC for example) though it's not a global switch by any means.
Posted: Sun, 3rd Aug 2008, 8:38pm

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FXhomer46784

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EvilDonut wrote:

FXhomer46784 wrote:

If you're a good enough editor and a major company really wants to hire you, guess what, they'll let you choose the NLE you get to use.
Where do you get that? ExperiencesIMakeUp.com?!

I have NEVER seen that happen. Unless it's some 2-person video department of a non-media company.

Companies invest MILLIONS on software/hardware to get the job done. Talent, Equipment, Licenses, Training, etc. They're not going to throw $5M and retrain 200 people just because a new package offers a cuter way of doing something. Look at how badly corporate america has adopted Vista - they haven't! Even Mac is ignored. Better is not always best.

d
Not ExperiencesIMakeUp.com, ExperiencesICouldHaveLivedHadIChoseTo.com (see below)


First of all, working with a small video unit in a non-media company is a perfectly respectable career. Many people in these forums do just that. I think RyanMichael would be getting a little ahead of himself to be dreaming of much more than that at this point anyway.


That being said, EvilDonut excluded an entire range of company size from his list. He went from a company/department of 2 people to one of 200 people. Honestly, how many projects involve 200 editors? A more reasonable number for any serious project would fall somewhere between 2 and 200. That wouldn't cost $5 million, although in some cases it would be very expensive, perhaps to the extent where changing is not worth it, but you can't blanketly state that it can't happen.

I work for the second largest school district in my state who has just launched a new video production unit (call that small if you want, but it's bigger than two people). They use Premiere, which I'd never used before I started there. I found out that I liked Premiere, so it wasn't really an issue. But if I'd told them they should switch to a different system or I'd look elsewhere, they'd have switched despite the fact I'm (currently) without a degree, and despite the fact that it's just a halftime summer job for me. In fact, they've come to me asking how to spend budgets much larger amounts that. And yet, I'm still a teenager.

Sure this is an abnormality (in fact it scares me that I have that sort of power), but it happened because I made myself that valuable to that department from past work experience with them and because they trust my experience with the technology. Even had I suggested Cinerella on Linux, I think they would have gone for it (even though the district has just gotten rid of all their Macs so as to only have one OS - imagine the retraining costs for a new NLE and Linux).


If you really want to be competitive, it's essential to know more than one NLE (at least until you can establish a reputation for yourself). I use FCP at school for my film studies degree (although there is rumor of a switch to Premiere because one of our newer, higher profile professors prefers it - there's another possible example of change in an organization a lot larger than 2 people), AVID for my (currently undeclared) broadcasting minor, Premiere at work, and Vegas at home for all my personal projects. I also used to use FCP at the local Public Access station when I interned there. Admittedly I don't have any say in what I use at school or public access stations (for obvious reasons), although I can occasionally get away with an effect shot or something using my own PC and transferring that to a larger FCP project. But at home and at work, yes, it's certainly my choice, and, for now, I appreciate the variety.


All of the above beside, neither of those was the size of company I was referring to anyway. I was referring to someone really big who works as an independent filmmaker (which somewhat negates Arktic's point about PMs and Edit Prod.s - sorry, I should have been clearer than 'Major Company'). Like Michael Kahn, for example. Kahn has been Spielberg's editor on pretty much every film he's directed since the 80s. If Spielberg would have said, "Hey, I'm making Indy 4, you'll edit it right?" and Kahn said, "Yeah, but only if I get to use Premiere this time" Speilberg would likely have said yes. It would actually be harder to switch editors after 30 years than to switch editing systems. As others have already said, it's the talent and reputation, not the program. (for the record, DreamWorks also uses Linux for all their special effects, as opposed to the 'industry standard' Macs-are-great-for-all-things-visual cliche)

Now admittedly, few editors reach the status of Kahn, and probably none from these forums, but then again he does work under one of the best directors of all time. There are smaller companies where this is more likely (incl. the one I currently work for). Also, someone of his status admittedly would have started out using AVID or FCP (or in his case actual film, but times are changing obviously), but just because someone uses that professionally doesn't mean that they need to prefer it. Once they have the clout they could theoretically demand to switch, especially if they are noticeably better on another program. This may still be unprecedented out in L.A. because a few years ago, yes, AVID was the only option. However, I wouldn't be surprised at all if things changed in this generation since there really is no difference (overall) between FCP and Premiere, etc anymore (Vegas is laid out a little different of course, but is still better for some things). Not to mention EDL support is improving.


It's all beside the point really. I don't think RyanMichael is looking to move to L.A. tomorrow and get a major job with a production company anyway.
Posted: Sun, 3rd Aug 2008, 11:57pm

Post 71 of 76

EvilDonut

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All your stuff is irrelevant after you said 'small outfit'.

Yeah if you're in a small company - you can talk right to the President and make things happen.

A lot of people work for bigger companies. And anyone who's ever worked in these outfits know how it takes 5 signatures, 3 meetings, 4 reports, etc. etc. just to get one simple change done. God help me if I got hired by Blizzard and told them to use Blender or anyone on Madison Ave to start using PCs!

And let's not forget about the 'old guard'. There are people in Hollywood who still swear by film and think digital video has ruined the art of filmmaking! Films should be edited using cut and splice not NLE's. smile

If you're at home - use what you want. So all the advice in this thread is still dead-on.

d
Posted: Mon, 4th Aug 2008, 12:58am

Post 72 of 76

Bryce007

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Bryan M Block wrote:

the biggest downfalls I see with vegas are:
1. no support of Panasonic workflows including P2 and DVCPro50- and that isn't likely to change because of the competition between SOny and Panasonic with formats- HOWEVER I have read that you can buy a codec pack for Vegas for about $300 to support those formats. There is also no support for the RED camera in Vegas yet, which is a shame because of it's resolution independence- it should be a perfect match!

------------------------------------------------------------
I always transcode P2 to something like Canopus HQ anyways. The new Sony-EX1 is supported directly on the time. So is DVCPro50. (I'm speaking about Vegas cool. To utilize RED footage, you need to buy a Batch software transcoder. Then again, I transcode HDV with a software transcoder before I use it, so that's not really unusual.
-------------------------------------------------------


2. The titler, even in version 8 is just NOT UP TO SNUFF- that said, the basic titler in AVID always gave me fits as well building bullet point lists and all that- Some AVID editors I know still do all of that work in Photoshop like I do. smile Some don't- they use AVID Marquee

----------------------------------------------
The titler is crap, and confusing. Very true. However, if you're clever, you can create some PRETTY slick looking titles using effects combine with the track motion tool. Infact, So far, most of the title work I've done hasn't been in AE CS3... It's been in Vegas.
----------------------------------------------

Now - having said all that,one thing I've noticed in AVID that drove me nuts and that I didn't expect was I had a talking head talent and I wanted a slow push in post to introduce the section. There was a NOTICABLE softening of the DV image as soon as the push started- it was incredibly notciable- and this was on an AVID Composer suite. The same clip done in Vegas was MUCH better with that move! Again, this is the kind of thing that shocks AVID editors because they have learned to live with things like that and just don't know it can be any better.

Vegas also does pretty decent slo-mo in post.

----------------------------------------------------

If you shoot in 60i with a high shutter speed, you can go all the way down to 30% with incredibly good results if you turn on "Force resampling". That being said, Adobe's "Pixel motion" feature looks AMAZING. Infact, it's almost unbelievable what can be accomplished with Pixel motion. I've used it to create stuff that looked like it was shot in 120FPS.
Posted: Mon, 4th Aug 2008, 2:27am

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Bryan M Block

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Yeh- you can always transcode- but guys I know who have used P2 workflow ( I never have) like it just be "plug and play"- But you bring up really good points- Vegas has always been somewhat agnostic about what you throw on the timeline and with a little massaging, you can get just about any footage to work- easier or better than what I've seen in FCP SOMETIMES. Also, I agree totally with the titler comment about combining effects- you absolutely are correct about combining effects- my problem is usually that I need to build lots and lots of text screens with bullet points or columns or things like that for the training programs I work on, and the Vegas titler is really not suited for that at all- and those types of things are very, very common in corporate or educational video- and many of the guys I know just lay things out in Photoshop- or they know how to use Marquee in the AVID- but AE isn't really required for those types of things.
I've never seen the "pixel motion" but Vegas's slo mo is really pretty darn good!
Posted: Mon, 4th Aug 2008, 3:37am

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FXhomer46784

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EvilDonut wrote:

All your stuff is irrelevant after you said 'small outfit'.

Yeah if you're in a small company - you can talk right to the President and make things happen.

A lot of people work for bigger companies. And anyone who's ever worked in these outfits know how it takes 5 signatures, 3 meetings, 4 reports, etc. etc. just to get one simple change done. God help me if I got hired by Blizzard and told them to use Blender or anyone on Madison Ave to start using PCs!
Did you even read the post at all? First, I never said 'small outfit.' Talking directly to the 'President' really is not an option in this case, nor was that the only example in my post. And no, it's not a small company, small department perhaps, but that does nothing for the higher powers-that-be thing, especially when I'm the lowest person on the totem pole in that department.

But yeah, that wasn't even the only example or reasoning I gave (in fact, it was a relatively minor one early on). Note the example I gave of a possible switch at my college (all because of one professor), a much larger change, and one that would mean a Mac to PC switchover (I realize Premiere is cross platform, but I'm told we'd start using the Windows version, if we used it).

As for the board meeting/signatures thing. Have you ever seen how quickly that can happen when everyone really wants something done. Because yes, I've seen that happen both speeds in my experience too. And I don't think you working for Blizzard is even close to an example of what I'm talking about. I'm talking about serious amounts of clout here, I even evoked the name of Michael Kahn earlier.

I also never said that making such a demand wouldn't limit your job choices (although insisting on only working for a 'huge company,' as you seem to be doing, seems to me to limit these choices even more), and remember I was really talking about big name editors anyway, people who're in enough demand that they can't take all their job offers anyway. I said later on that learning other systems are necessary learning step at least to prove yourself (in fact I pointed out this importance twice - but I don't think you read that far).

But I won't go into more detail, because it's still all in my last post and I stand by everything I said, whether people read it all or not. My stance is there. But alas, I don't really see the point, because that's not what this thread is about.



Bottom Line: I use four different NLEs in four different capacities. Yes, they all have different feature sets. At home, I currently use Vegas. If I got to make that choice over again, it would still be Vegas or Premiere, not AVID or FCP.


EvilDonut wrote:

And let's not forget about the 'old guard'. There are people in Hollywood who still swear by film and think digital video has ruined the art of filmmaking! Films should be edited using cut and splice not NLE's.
Okay, now this is a really good and valid point, but I still think that's covered in the last part of my previous post where I talked about the changing times (change 'AVID' to 'film' and it is almost an absolute certainty - in fact it's already happened):

FXhomer46784 wrote:

This may still be unprecedented out in L.A. because a few years ago, yes, AVID was the only option. However, I wouldn't be surprised at all if things changed in this generation

Bryan M Block wrote:

I've never seen the "pixel motion" but Vegas's slo mo is really pretty darn good!
On a side note:
I've seen slow-mo on FCP, CS3, and Vegas Platinum (I think on Vegas Pro too). Not sure if I used the pixel motion (I don't think I did), but Premiere looked terrible in that capacity. In fact, for slow-mo Vegas Platinum actually looked much better than Premiere or FCP. That surprised even me!
Posted: Mon, 4th Aug 2008, 4:30am

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Thrawn

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All of these long posts are giving me a headache... this is worse then the Mac VS PC debate... wink
Posted: Mon, 4th Aug 2008, 8:42am

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Hybrid-Halo

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The original post wrote:

I need a new movie editor and I am deciding between Sony Vegas 8 platinum and Final Cut Express. Do they both support MPEG-2? The only thing I hate about Vegas is it has HORRIBLE title making. The problem with Final Cut is my my mac is the less powerful white macbook so it might run slow. What should I choose? I use allot of cool titles, color changes and correction, I rarely use fancy transitions besides fades. I make lots of movies with my friends (one has a Canon XL-2). We dont really post online much. We aren't beginners. We started out using WMM, then we used stuff like ulead/magix/pinnacle and all those kind of editors and we are going up a step in editors. We use Mac and Pc.
Above is the original post for this thread, I think we can all agree that this discussion - though interesting to a point has perhaps now seen its course?

This is a creative industry, guys. I'm half shocked at how these discussions always leave me to believe that some of you have forgotten about that, there's way too much caring about software going on - Which is insane, software is the one aspect of your creative career that is bound to change. The art is something that will never be replaced or upgraded with a new interface - so my advice to anyone looking to go into editing would be to learn that.

And not end up like one of you guys razz