You are viewing an archive of the old fxhome.com forums. The community has since moved to hitfilm.com.

Hammerhead

Posted: Mon, 11th Aug 2008, 4:05pm

Post 1 of 92

Zephlon

Force: 2282 | Joined: 28th Jun 2005 | Posts: 254

VisionLab User FXpreset Maker FXhome Movie Maker Windows User

Gold Member

Years of training and hardships. Faced with torture, death, and misery. But a soldiers full sacrifice usually go unnoticed. The very people they risked their lives for persecute them through the freedoms and rights that THEY gave them. Would you be able stand it?

We have a debt owed to our soldiers.


More Info
Posted: Mon, 11th Aug 2008, 4:56pm

Post 2 of 92

JasonX1024

Force: 1390 | Joined: 13th Jan 2008 | Posts: 492

VisionLab User Windows User FXhome Movie Maker

Gold Member

AmazINg! Sends an untold message of a fearful story. This is one of the best FXHome movies i hav ever seen. 5/5 hands down. I cant believe the ending. Well done! But i would much rather see it as a short movie than a music video.
Posted: Tue, 12th Aug 2008, 1:28am

Post 3 of 92

Shadow013

Force: 943 | Joined: 17th Mar 2008 | Posts: 154

EffectsLab Pro User VideoWrap User FXhome Movie Maker MacOS User

Gold Member

Wow, that was insane! I really liked that video. I like the song too, I didn't recognize it at first though. But that was a very good film or music video or whatever you want to call it. You really do some solid work there my friend. Everything was pieced together so great. I enjoyed this video a lot. Good job!
Posted: Tue, 12th Aug 2008, 2:41am

Post 4 of 92

Biblmac

Force: 852 | Joined: 12th Jun 2007 | Posts: 1513

EffectsLab Lite User Windows User

Gold Member

I agree. This was truly a fantastic video. I like the message. The whole idea is genious. I too would have liked to see it in a short film but this was very well done and still a great and going on my top ten!
Posted: Tue, 12th Aug 2008, 2:58am

Post 5 of 92

Thrawn

Force: 1995 | Joined: 11th Aug 2006 | Posts: 1962

CompositeLab Pro User EffectsLab Lite User FXhome Movie Maker MacOS User

Gold Member

What did you shoot this on?
Posted: Tue, 12th Aug 2008, 2:59am

Post 6 of 92

sayewhat

Force: 1350 | Joined: 18th Dec 2006 | Posts: 3

VisionLab User VideoWrap User

Gold Member

Very well done. I think the grading in the film really helps to add emotion. I little to "shaky" in some parts but all-in-all the hand held shots work to add some "realism" to the video. Besides that no complaints 5/5

This video officially makes me a fan smile
Posted: Tue, 12th Aug 2008, 6:02am

Post 7 of 92

Atom

Force: 4300 | Joined: 9th May 2004 | Posts: 7014

EffectsLab Lite User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User

Gold Member

I'm a little iffy on this whole 'message' everyone was getting. Not that I don't like the video or support our troops; I do both very much. But as far as overall composition this was- as far as I could tell- a good display of action-movie-cinematography and gear against an undramatic, typical teenage punk rock song.

And frankly, to me it was a little crazy and scattershot- more of a montage of good cinematography than anything else. Maybe I'm missing the 'message' here, maybe it's entirely in the description of the video and that's it (and if so, those are certainly some powerful, if not slightly accusatory, words)- but this movie is too narrow for me: not quite enough to be an actual story, not quite close enough in the direction of a music video to be one of those either.

Hmmmm.....I'll have to think this one over, see if there's something to it I'm not getting. But as far as impact goes, the effect on me was very little due to the lack of drama or real tension. If anything, this was absolutely great in the vein of something like, say, the old movie 'ADRENALINE' that used to be on here (that is, only if you've seen that, I suppose smile)

Overall, though, some very solid technicals here that warrant at least a 3/5 from me as an overall score.
Posted: Tue, 12th Aug 2008, 12:06pm

Post 8 of 92

Sam Larsen

Force: 808 | Joined: 24th May 2008 | Posts: 40

VisionLab User FXhome Movie Maker FXpreset Maker

Gold Member

great movie i gave it a 4 star becuase it was just great the only thing was the quilty on the video wasnt so good but i dont blame you guys for that i think it was just because it wasnt downloadable
Posted: Tue, 12th Aug 2008, 1:44pm

Post 9 of 92

SilverDragon7

Force: 2265 | Joined: 29th Jun 2006 | Posts: 1990

VisionLab User VideoWrap User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User

Gold Member

This, as I said before, is a great music video- glad to see it join in the FXhome Cinema.
Posted: Tue, 12th Aug 2008, 1:57pm

Post 10 of 92

Simon K Jones

Force: 27955 | Joined: 1st Jan 2002 | Posts: 11683

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 5 Pro User MuzzlePlug User PowerPlug User PhotoKey 3 Plug-in User FXhome Movie Maker FXpreset Maker Windows User

FXhome Team Member

Some great cinematography and editing here - especially in the second half. The first half dawdled a little bit and didn't seem to really be going anywhere - I actually thought it was just test footage or a trailer for some upcoming war movie or something; I didn't realise it was actually part of the narrative. Perhaps you were tied to the length and timing of the song too much, as I think the first half definitely needs some serious tightening up.

The second half is much better as an actual story emerges and you can get a handle on characters and motivation. Also, great job on costumes and making it all feel very authentic and nicely varied in terms of locations and cast.

I have to say that I really, really dislike the song. Offspring, presumably? I normally like them, but this song really didn't work for me - lyrics seemed really rather simplistic and a little cheesy. You do, however, edit the video to the song very effectively - again, more so in the second half.

My main problem with this, though, is that I really have no idea what you're trying to say. Well, I have an idea, but that's only because of the description you included with the movie submission.

You're saying soldiers deserve respect because of what they go through, and shouldn't have to put up with anti-war people giving them grief? OK, fair enough, it's a valid point. Even though I'm pretty much on the side of the anti-war people, especially with regard to the US' current conflicts, I agree that it's completely pointless to focus dissent towards individual soldiers. You need to take it to those giving orders, rather than those taking orders.

However, you then rather undermine this point by showing the soldier going completely nuts and shooting up a school in a killing spree. And this is a guy we're supposed to have respect for and treat with reverance? Surely all this does is show that the anti-war people had quite a good point in the first place?

Then again, his rampage is portrayed in a very heroic light (which I found very disturbing, I have to admit), suggesting that despite his actions you as the filmmaker still think that he's in the right; almost as if you think those silly liberal anti-war protesters deserved to be killed! But I'm sure that isn't what you were trying to suggest, right? Because that would quite clearly be silly.

So yeah, my main problem is utter confusion over the 'point'. It weaves back and forth from being a militaristic, right wing, pro-war propaganda piece to an anti-war, war-is-hell, look-what-it-does-to-our-children type moralising rhetoric, then ends up somewhere stuck in the middle, really confused about its motivations.

Perhaps that's the point? To force the viewer to make up their own mind about the issue? If that were the case then you were heading in the right direction, but your written description accompanying the film really suggests otherwise.

In other words, I'm left somewhat puzzled, but nevertheless impressed by the technical ability on show.

Last edited Tue, 12th Aug 2008, 1:59pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Tue, 12th Aug 2008, 1:57pm

Post 11 of 92

Gabriel Campisi

Force: 1000 | Joined: 25th Dec 2006 | Posts: 26

VisionLab User Windows User FXhome Movie Maker

Gold Member

Fantastic! Great job all around. Great message/material for thought. Shaky-cam was a great idea and executed properly. Effects were nicely blended in. 5 out of 5.
Posted: Tue, 12th Aug 2008, 4:07pm

Post 12 of 92

Zephlon

Force: 2282 | Joined: 28th Jun 2005 | Posts: 254

VisionLab User FXpreset Maker FXhome Movie Maker Windows User

Gold Member

Well thank you all so much for taking the time to view the video.

For starters let me explain the origins of the video. The video was created for the "Offspring Hammerhead video contest". That is the sole reason the song is there. Normally I do not like lyrical music in my films, but in this case the lyrics is what drove the video forward. As many of you have said, the beginning is without order and slightly confusing. This was done on purpose because the whole situation is confusing to the lead character and in a way I was trying to make the audience feel the same way the soldiers feels...confused. Then as planned when the lead character arrives back home that is when the story really begins.

Personally I wish I had more time to explain his arrival home and build the character a little more. Since the contest was based around the song I felt it was necessary to keep along with what the lyrics where saying (to a degree) so I was forced to leave the second half short.

The school shooting conclusion comes from the lyrics. I also believe the shooting, although very impacting, may be a little to much and really leaves the audience confused on how they should feel (which could be a good thing).

As for the overall thought that I wanted portrayed I think Tarn hit the spot :

Tarn wrote:

To force the viewer to make up their own mind about the issue
Although I have my personally opinions on the matter I felt for the sake of the contest that the movie should be in between, slightly showing both sides of the story.

Thrawn: the video was shot on a GL2

JasonX1024 and Biblmac: I too would like to have made it a short film but the contest was for the song. I could go back and attempt to make a actually short film out of it but we would have to film a lot of filler stuff and redo all the audio.

Thanks for all the reviews, as always they help tons
Posted: Tue, 12th Aug 2008, 4:13pm

Post 13 of 92

Simon K Jones

Force: 27955 | Joined: 1st Jan 2002 | Posts: 11683

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 5 Pro User MuzzlePlug User PowerPlug User PhotoKey 3 Plug-in User FXhome Movie Maker FXpreset Maker Windows User

FXhome Team Member

Zephlon wrote:

JasonX1024 and Biblmac: I too would like to have made it a short film but the contest was for the song. I could go back and attempt to make a actually short film out of it but we would have to film a lot of filler stuff and redo all the audio.
Interesting. I think you could actually make this into a much stronger short film by shortening and removing stuff, rather than adding bits in. It'd certainly be a very, very different film with a different score attached.
Posted: Tue, 12th Aug 2008, 6:18pm

Post 14 of 92

SilverDragon7

Force: 2265 | Joined: 29th Jun 2006 | Posts: 1990

VisionLab User VideoWrap User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User

Gold Member

Didn't you make the gun props out of cardboard?
Posted: Tue, 12th Aug 2008, 7:52pm

Post 15 of 92

FXhomer45059

Force: 0 | Joined: 12th Aug 2008 | Posts: 1

Member

Great editing!! Very intense!!! What camera was used to film this? Keep up the great work.
Posted: Tue, 12th Aug 2008, 8:23pm

Post 16 of 92

Prograde Productions

Force: 1013 | Joined: 1st Jan 2008 | Posts: 21

VisionLab User FXhome Movie Maker

Gold Member

this movie is alright but the person who film it needs to learn how to use a tripod.
Posted: Wed, 13th Aug 2008, 7:57am

Post 17 of 92

Mattex Films HD

Force: 941 | Joined: 12th Feb 2007 | Posts: 156

EffectsLab Pro User VideoWrap User FXpreset Maker FXhome Movie Maker Windows User MacOS User

Gold Member

THIS IS AWSOME! I love this film, the editing, grading and FX's are great. FIVE stars.
Posted: Wed, 13th Aug 2008, 11:42am

Post 18 of 92

Atom

Force: 4300 | Joined: 9th May 2004 | Posts: 7014

EffectsLab Lite User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User

Gold Member

I, almost wholeheartedly, agree with Tarn.
Posted: Thu, 14th Aug 2008, 2:50pm

Post 19 of 92

Greybro

Force: 670 | Joined: 18th Apr 2003 | Posts: 195

EffectsLab Pro User Windows User

Gold Member

Well Geesh, it's not like I'm going to out articulate Tarn's review. I shared in the confusion but do think the technical execution was really quite high in all areas from the effects/grading to the actual cinematography. There are so many "test" clips on this site that I could never say anything negative about something that obviously tells a story, even if the morality message is a little less than clear.

I actually expected some sort of high road reaction to the ridicule at home by the hero/anti hero. When he went postal it's like Tarn said, it sort of belly flipped the message for me. Let me say that you must have one silver tounged producer to get a school to let you shoot something like that in their facility. I mean that setting was....Wow. It gave me goosebumps and of course brought back up those painful memories of the recent school killings in the states.

Overall just very high marks from me.

Regards,
Brent
Posted: Thu, 14th Aug 2008, 4:16pm

Post 20 of 92

Jabooza

Force: 2743 | Joined: 21st Jul 2006 | Posts: 1446

VisionLab User VideoWrap User FXpreset Maker FXhome Movie Maker MacOS User

Gold Member

Atom wrote:

I, almost wholeheartedly, agree with Tarn.
Same here.


Tarn wrote:

Zephlon wrote:

JasonX1024 and Biblmac: I too would like to have made it a short film but the contest was for the song. I could go back and attempt to make a actually short film out of it but we would have to film a lot of filler stuff and redo all the audio.
Interesting. I think you could actually make this into a much stronger short film by shortening and removing stuff, rather than adding bits in. It'd certainly be a very, very different film with a different score attached.
I agree with that as well. I think it being a music video, especially to a song like that, held it back from delivering the message as strong as it could have.
Posted: Sat, 16th Aug 2008, 1:37am

Post 21 of 92

wsbob

Force: 1200 | Joined: 24th Jan 2008 | Posts: 3

VisionLab User VideoWrap User

Gold Member

I was confused with the first part. The rags on the heads of the baddies was cheap and cheesie. I wasn't sure if this was serious or having a laugh.
The second part was very good, it was well filmed and edited. Good dramatic tension, the swat team looked great. When the swat team fired, that didn't look so great unfortunately. Good dramatic ending, I liked it
Posted: Mon, 18th Aug 2008, 2:04am

Post 22 of 92

Zephlon

Force: 2282 | Joined: 28th Jun 2005 | Posts: 254

VisionLab User FXpreset Maker FXhome Movie Maker Windows User

Gold Member

Hey thanks again for the reviews.

Glade you guys enjoyed the FX for the most part. Motion tracking all of it by hand to the shaky footage was extremely hard, makes you really appreciate tripods smile

Greybro: Thanks for noticing what a feat it was to get permission to shoot this inside a school.

wsbob: "The rags on the heads of the baddies was cheap and cheesie"
They do wear those. But more colored ones would have helped.

I would love to make an actual short out of this. I watched a lot of my footage I have and I realized it would be possible to do the short without having to re shoot anything. But the video would still have to be driven mostly by music and soundeffects because all of the dialog is horrible (we didn't use a shotgun mic because we were never planing on using the audio). As for shortening the film, I really cant see that working. But changing the timing would work, cut the "military part" shorter and give it more of a story. Then increase the "arrive home" part and keep the "shoot up the school" part about the same. But this all will have to wait for some time.
Posted: Wed, 20th Aug 2008, 3:19am

Post 23 of 92

JEMS Entertainment

Force: 960 | Joined: 15th Jun 2007 | Posts: 14

VisionLab User FXhome Movie Maker

Gold Member

lacked heart it seemed. The whole tone of the film was very confusing. Keep in mind what you want your audience to feel when you shoot a movie. The music has a lot to do with that and the music did not fit with what was going on.

A little more work at maybe story and emotionality, but the effects were great. Hope to see more, but work at it
Posted: Thu, 28th Aug 2008, 5:45pm

Post 24 of 92

clement

Force: 430 | Joined: 14th Sep 2007 | Posts: 34

EffectsLab Pro User FXhome Movie Maker

Gold Member

was that the song from crazy taxi??!??
Posted: Fri, 29th Aug 2008, 4:56am

Post 25 of 92

cottonproductions

Force: 845 | Joined: 26th Oct 2007 | Posts: 73

CompositeLab Pro User EffectsLab Pro User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User

Gold Member

Hey Zephon,

What site do you use to store the streaming video? I noticed the player was different and noticed the same on a few other videos. I was wondering cause I saw it was FLASH and the quality was excellent.
Posted: Fri, 29th Aug 2008, 2:00pm

Post 26 of 92

SilverDragon7

Force: 2265 | Joined: 29th Jun 2006 | Posts: 1990

VisionLab User VideoWrap User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User

Gold Member

It's run from his own server and website.
Posted: Sat, 6th Sep 2008, 9:43pm

Post 27 of 92

Gibs

Force: 1663 | Joined: 21st May 2002 | Posts: 1611

CompositeLab Pro User FXhome Movie Maker FXpreset Maker MacOS User

Gold Member

In terms of the message, I echo pretty much everything Tarn said. I think the problem lies in the song, which made you tell a story of a murderous soldier rather than one of a soldier who despite constant persecution perseveres or does something honorable. I think that would be a better way for the Offspring to give soldiers respect.

As far as the technical aspects go, I must applaud you for a very well done video. The cinematography and shot selection was nice, and the editing was tight (although perhaps too quick at times). My only gripe here is that the combination of the constantly moving camera plus the rapid-fire editing frustrated me because I can tell that you have a lot of very nice shots, but it's very hard to see them. Obviously I expect there to be a lot of shaky shots in combat scenes, and while I must admit that the rapid-movement style of the video compliments the song well, I personally would have preferred to see more longer shots.

Overall, very well done. Kudos for successfully filming at a school, I wouldn't even think of attempting something like that!
Posted: Mon, 1st Dec 2008, 4:55pm

Post 28 of 92

Lemmzes

Force: 0 | Joined: 24th Nov 2008 | Posts: 2

Member

i thought that was really well done but the only thing that was anoying in some places was the camera shaking
Posted: Tue, 10th Feb 2009, 2:31pm

Post 29 of 92

GoldenBengal

Force: 0 | Joined: 22nd Jan 2009 | Posts: 4

Member

Rating: -1

This is kind of stupid...
Posted: Thu, 19th Feb 2009, 3:51pm

Post 30 of 92

EED

Force: 1210 | Joined: 8th Mar 2005 | Posts: 9

VisionLab User FXhome Movie Maker

Gold Member

I can see a lot of effort went into this, which is awesome. However, there are a few things that really hurt this film/music video.

The shaky cam is something that, in my opinion, makes action scenes worse and not better. Granted there are appropriate times for it, but when the camera is being shaking like there is an earthquake its not good. It makes it hard to tell what is going on. I believe in your film/music video, the shaky cam was way over-exaggerated.

The film/music video's message was a little unclear. The reason for this is in your synopsis. You say that this is a tribute to those that served and who's sacrifice goes unnoticed, however, it seems more of an anti war theme instead. I got this because, well the music could have been a better choice (I like the Offspring, good band), and I feel the mental breakdown and killings of innocents was an anti more than pro.

In the end cool stuff, I can see a lot of effort was put into it. Keep making films man, and keep your eye on the long run.
Posted: Thu, 19th Feb 2009, 9:07pm

Post 31 of 92

GoldenBengal

Force: 0 | Joined: 22nd Jan 2009 | Posts: 4

Member

Why would an ex soldier kill 12? Even if he was made fun of? What ex-soldier is made fun of anyway?
Posted: Thu, 19th Feb 2009, 9:58pm

Post 32 of 92

ben3308

Force: 5210 | Joined: 24th May 2004 | Posts: 6433

VideoWrap User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User

Gold Member

GoldenBengal wrote:

What ex-soldier is made fun of anyway?
Are you kidding? Does "Vietnam" ring a bell?
Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2009, 12:39am

Post 33 of 92

Biblmac

Force: 852 | Joined: 12th Jun 2007 | Posts: 1513

EffectsLab Lite User Windows User

Gold Member

ben3308 wrote:

GoldenBengal wrote:

What ex-soldier is made fun of anyway?
Are you kidding? Does "Vietnam" ring a bell?
Good point that is what Rambo the first movie is all about!
Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2009, 2:02am

Post 34 of 92

Rockfilmers

Force: 2182 | Joined: 10th May 2007 | Posts: 1376

VisionLab User PhotoKey 4 User FXpreset Maker FXhome Movie Maker Windows User

Gold Member

I agree with the the message of this film %100, it's what I've been telling my friends for a long time. The effects were great but like what a lot of people said, it would have been better to hold the camera still. A little bit of camera shake (And I mean a little) can some times give the since of speed and power. Also about the song, although I like The Offspring, well, enough people have stated what I was going to say. Great Job, 5 stars smile
Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2009, 9:19am

Post 35 of 92

Simon K Jones

Force: 27955 | Joined: 1st Jan 2002 | Posts: 11683

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 5 Pro User MuzzlePlug User PowerPlug User PhotoKey 3 Plug-in User FXhome Movie Maker FXpreset Maker Windows User

FXhome Team Member

Rockfilmers wrote:

I agree with the the message of this film %100, it's what I've been telling my friends for a long time.
What, that if someone makes fun of you, you should go and rampage through a school with guns? crazy
Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2009, 12:00pm

Post 36 of 92

Sollthar

Force: 13360 | Joined: 30th Oct 2001 | Posts: 6094

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 2 Pro User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User MacOS User

SuperUser

Odd film, that one. Not sure about it's message.

Soldiers in war, kill people. Other people tell them off for killing people, so they kill them too. That's what I get in context of the film.

So this film is actually ANTI-Soldiers? The description sounds like it's PRO-Soldiers, but the film itself makes soldiers indeed look really really bad and I totally sympathize with the people who tell them off.


Execution wise, it's got some nice angles, but it's incredibly wobbly and the first half is simply way too long for my taste.
Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2009, 12:18pm

Post 37 of 92

ben3308

Force: 5210 | Joined: 24th May 2004 | Posts: 6433

VideoWrap User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User

Gold Member

Tarn wrote:

Rockfilmers wrote:

I agree with the the message of this film %100, it's what I've been telling my friends for a long time.
What, that if someone makes fun of you, you should go and rampage through a school with guns? crazy
I think he means more in terms of the "don't bite the hands that feeds [you your freedom, in a broad sense at least]". In that, it adds insult to injury to the already likely broken spirit of war veterans to criticize them for doing something that helped you in the first place. Is this convoluted? Absolutely, but that's what I think people are "agreeing" with.

I could be wrong, though. wink
Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2009, 2:08pm

Post 38 of 92

GoldenBengal

Force: 0 | Joined: 22nd Jan 2009 | Posts: 4

Member

Tarn wrote:

Rockfilmers wrote:

I agree with the the message of this film %100, it's what I've been telling my friends for a long time.
What, that if someone makes fun of you, you should go and rampage through a school with guns? crazy
I agree with you 100%
Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2009, 2:17pm

Post 39 of 92

Simon K Jones

Force: 27955 | Joined: 1st Jan 2002 | Posts: 11683

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 5 Pro User MuzzlePlug User PowerPlug User PhotoKey 3 Plug-in User FXhome Movie Maker FXpreset Maker Windows User

FXhome Team Member

ben3308 wrote:

Tarn wrote:

Rockfilmers wrote:

I agree with the the message of this film %100, it's what I've been telling my friends for a long time.
What, that if someone makes fun of you, you should go and rampage through a school with guns? crazy
I think he means more in terms of the "don't bite the hands that feeds [you your freedom, in a broad sense at least]". In that, it adds insult to injury to the already likely broken spirit of war veterans to criticize them for doing something that helped you in the first place. Is this convoluted? Absolutely, but that's what I think people are "agreeing" with.
That's a pretty simplistic and naive view of what soldiers do, though.

Did the soldiers as depicted in the 'war zone' in this video help bring freedom to the people in the 2nd half of the film? Not at all. Given that the USA has never been invaded and very few of the countries it's fought have ever posed even the slightest threat of invasion or conflict, it's a slightly wobbly argument.

I'd say that if war veterans have a 'broken spirit', it's probably because it was a broken war in the first place.

You didn't have WW2 veterans encountering these kind of problems, after all. They may have been traumatised by the war itself, but they were rightly treated as heroes upon their return, and still are. That's not to say they were all perfect - horrors were committed by all sides in WW2 like in any other war - but at least the concept of the war was valid, and the idea of them 'defending freedom' was definitely valid.

If anything, Hammerhead highlights the giant gulf between the romantic vision of war and the reality.

I could be wrong, though. wink
Heh. It's the confusion that is the problem here. If the film was definitely going for a particular message, whether I agreed with it or not, it'd be ok. It's the fact that it doesn't seem to really know what it's saying that is the issue.
Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2009, 2:26pm

Post 40 of 92

Biblmac

Force: 852 | Joined: 12th Jun 2007 | Posts: 1513

EffectsLab Lite User Windows User

Gold Member

Tarn wrote:

Did the soldiers as depicted in the 'war zone' in this video help bring freedom to the people in the 2nd half of the film? Not at all. Given that the USA has never been invaded and very few of the countries it's fought have ever posed even the slightest threat of invasion or conflict, it's a slightly wobbly argument.

I'd say that if war veterans have a 'broken spirit', it's probably because it was a broken war in the first place.

You didn't have WW2 veterans encountering these kind of problems, after all. They may have been traumatised by the war itself, but they were rightly treated as heroes upon their return, and still are. That's not to say they were all perfect - horrors were committed by all sides in WW2 like in any other war - but at least the concept of the war was valid, and the idea of them 'defending freedom' was definitely valid
Ya but whether or no the idea of the war is agreed with or not you shouldn't punish the people following orders by treating them like dirt, (which happened most notably in Vietnam, and was depicted in this video) get mad at the people giving the orders. The veterans didn't have a choice of whether do go or not.
Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2009, 2:29pm

Post 41 of 92

Simon K Jones

Force: 27955 | Joined: 1st Jan 2002 | Posts: 11683

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 5 Pro User MuzzlePlug User PowerPlug User PhotoKey 3 Plug-in User FXhome Movie Maker FXpreset Maker Windows User

FXhome Team Member

Biblmac wrote:

Ya but whether or no the idea of the war is agreed with or not you shouldn't punish the people following orders by treating them like dirt, (which happened most notably in Vietnam, and was depicted in this video) get mad at the people giving the orders.
Absolutely, I agree completely.

However, no matter how much you disapprove of people punishing the soldiers, it in no way justifies them shooting everybody. smile
Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2009, 2:30pm

Post 42 of 92

Biblmac

Force: 852 | Joined: 12th Jun 2007 | Posts: 1513

EffectsLab Lite User Windows User

Gold Member

Tarn wrote:

However, no matter how much you disapprove of people punishing the soldiers, it in no way justifies them shooting everybody. smile
Ya I agree.
Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2009, 2:33pm

Post 43 of 92

Rockfilmers

Force: 2182 | Joined: 10th May 2007 | Posts: 1376

VisionLab User PhotoKey 4 User FXpreset Maker FXhome Movie Maker Windows User

Gold Member

No, you misunderstood. I'm not talking about that at all. I'm talking about agreeing with what soldiers do for this country and they get a bunch of back lash from the nation that they fight for.

Given that the USA has never been invaded and very few of the countries it's fought have ever posed even the slightest threat of invasion or conflict, it's a slightly wobbly argument.
That's not true Tarn. You guys invaded DC in the war of 1812. England was under the threat of being invaded by Germany in world war 2 and the USA got a letter from Albert Einstein that Germany was developing a nuclear weapon that could wipe out whole cities, so there was a reason for that. Korea and Vietnam was just a chance to fight the Soviets.
Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2009, 2:36pm

Post 44 of 92

Sollthar

Force: 13360 | Joined: 30th Oct 2001 | Posts: 6094

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 2 Pro User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User MacOS User

SuperUser

Rating: +1/-2

Tarn wrote:

Biblmac wrote:

Ya but whether or no the idea of the war is agreed with or not you shouldn't punish the people following orders by treating them like dirt, (which happened most notably in Vietnam, and was depicted in this video) get mad at the people giving the orders.
Absolutely, I agree completely.
I disagree. Sure, the people giving evil orders are to blame as well, but at the end of the day, every order needs someone to carry it out. And in my view, people are responsible for their own actions - even if they follow an order. The "I just followed orders" argument doesn't fly for me. It was still the soldier who pulled the trigger instead of going "wait a second, this is wrong." and not doing it.

Hitler on his own is nothing but a caricature. Hitler with millions of Nazis following his orders, is a true nightmare.


In terms of war, we're talking about people taking other peoples lifes. Taking the most they posess: their very existance. If you are going to do that, make damn well sure you 100% stand behind the reasoning you have and don't just follow an order. And be prepared for people who will call you out for what you did.

I'm talking about agreeing with what soldiers do for this country
That's the point. They see people killing other people. That's what soldiers do for the country in their view: Make it look really, really, really bad.
Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2009, 2:45pm

Post 45 of 92

Atom

Force: 4300 | Joined: 9th May 2004 | Posts: 7014

EffectsLab Lite User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User

Gold Member

Rockfilmers wrote:

That's not true Tarn. You guys invaded DC in the war of 1812. England was under the threat of being invaded by Germany in world war 2 and the USA got a letter from Albert Einstein that Germany was developing a nuclear weapon that could wipe out whole cities, so there was a reason for that. Korea and Vietnam was just a chance to fight the Soviets.
Really? War of 1812, Rockfilmers?

If you're gonna go that far back to where social pressures were absurdly different about war- perhaps mention then the *cough*biggest invasion/devastation*cough* America has ever faced. You know.......that one, oh say, around the 1860s....

Tarn has a valid point, although I think if he saw the lasting effects and social taboos surrounding Vietnam and Vietnam veterans even today in America his view on that specific scenario would change drastically. Fact-of-the-matter with that one is we weren't invaded or facing homeland devastation- but young men were forced via conscription to go to war, something they didn't want to do, only to return shocked by death and killing and be spit on by American society and government.

Granted, that doesn't justify a killing rampage, not at all. But Vietnam was a nasty situation; and truly a travesty in our government procedures once it all ended. Every day I see homeless men around 55-60 with missing limbs and mental issues claiming to be veterans. Sadly, I believe them and know that Vietnam was probably their war. And even sadder, they probably didn't want to go in the first place.

But that's all over now- I'd just impress upon both Tarn and Rockfilmers that we have not faced a modern invasion that would justifiably shake up how our society and war are seen, no- but don't be too quick to slub off stuff like Vietnam- over here people even like myself, who weren't around for it- see the nasty, disheartening repercussions of a 'non-war' that can be equally as startling.

Sollthar wrote:

I disagree. Sure, the people giving evil orders are to blame as well, but at the end of the day, every order needs someone to carry it out. And in my view, people are responsible for their own actions - even if they follow an order. The "I just followed orders" argument doesn't fly for me. It was still the soldier who pulled the trigger instead of going "wait a second, this is wrong." and not doing it.
This is a sickening, sad, demeaning point-of-view. Disarmament and anti-war stuff is fine within reason- but to admonish the very basic trials of war......I honestly don't know what to say. Someone has to do it, buddy. To treat it so cavalierly, so easy to say 'oh, I just won't do this- yeah'..........is disgusting, Sollthar. There's no way I can even begin to treat your statements in your previous post with anything but, yeah.........disgust. However hypothetical they may be.

I may be from gun-toting Texas, I may be from war-starting America, but I am the furthest thing from a Conservative war-monger. I don't want you to think I'm saying this in a clouded, confused, I'm-13-years-old-and-my-parents-say-war-is-good attitude: I'm not.

Last edited Fri, 20th Feb 2009, 2:51pm; edited 2 times in total.

Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2009, 2:49pm

Post 46 of 92

Sollthar

Force: 13360 | Joined: 30th Oct 2001 | Posts: 6094

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 2 Pro User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User MacOS User

SuperUser

Care to explain which part makes my post skippable atom, apart from the fact you might disagree with my viewpoint - which is, as you know, not what the votes are made for?
Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2009, 2:53pm

Post 47 of 92

Rockfilmers

Force: 2182 | Joined: 10th May 2007 | Posts: 1376

VisionLab User PhotoKey 4 User FXpreset Maker FXhome Movie Maker Windows User

Gold Member

Atom, I'm just saying we have been invaded. Yes, I'm going back that far and I could go farther. It's not like I'm holding a grudge. It's part of American history. I could bring up the civil war, but we weren't invaded by a foreign nation so I didn't. smile
Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2009, 2:55pm

Post 48 of 92

Simon K Jones

Force: 27955 | Joined: 1st Jan 2002 | Posts: 11683

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 5 Pro User MuzzlePlug User PowerPlug User PhotoKey 3 Plug-in User FXhome Movie Maker FXpreset Maker Windows User

FXhome Team Member

Rockfilmers wrote:

No, you misunderstood. I'm not talking about that at all. I'm talking about agreeing with what soldiers do for this country and they get a bunch of back lash from the nation that they fight for.
It's the "that they fight for" bit I'm taking issue with, though. Some conflict is purely out of defence, sure. But randomly invading countries just because you disagree with them is something different, and it's why people get pissed off and complain.

My basic point, I suppose, is that there's a massive difference between "doing it for your country" and "doing it for your government". The former I understand, it implies you're protecting citizens and your way of life etc. The latter is usually to protect business interests and power structures.

That's not true Tarn. You guys invaded DC in the war of 1812. England was under the threat of being invaded by Germany in world war 2 and the USA got a letter from Albert Einstein that Germany was developing a nuclear weapon that could wipe out whole cities, so there was a reason for that.
Yeah, in my above posts I pointed out that WW2 was different for those exact reasons.

Korea and Vietnam was just a chance to fight the Soviets.
It was about imposing one political ideology on another. "Defending the country" and all that had nothing to do with it.

Sollthar wrote:

I disagree. Sure, the people giving evil orders are to blame as well, but at the end of the day, every order needs someone to carry it out. And in my view, people are responsible for their own actions - even if they follow an order. The "I just followed orders" argument doesn't fly for me. It was still the soldier who pulled the trigger instead of going "wait a second, this is wrong." and not doing it.
Ah, I also agree with this. smile

However, as far as I can tell, to be a soldier you effectively surrender your right to personal opinion. If you have personal opinion, then you're not a very good soldier. So yeah, every human has responsibility, but unfortunately half the point of the military is that you defer all moral decisions to somebody else and just 'follow orders'.

It's basically why I could never, ever join the military. smile

So yeah, you can criticise the soldiers for abandoning their self-thought in the first place, but criticising them for specific military decisions is a waste of time really. They've already been trained to obey, it's too late to criticise them for that.

I guess it's the difference between combating the symptom (the soldier's actions) or the cause of the symptom (the government/military orders). Addressing the former doesn't really get you anywhere in the long term.

This is the cornerstone of war, really. Go back a century or two and you've got hundreds of infantry soldiers marching to their deaths quite happily, because they've been told to. That complete willingness to obey orders was even more crucial back then, because wars were won on numbers more than they are today.

Last edited Fri, 20th Feb 2009, 3:01pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2009, 2:55pm

Post 49 of 92

Atom

Force: 4300 | Joined: 9th May 2004 | Posts: 7014

EffectsLab Lite User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User

Gold Member

Rating: -2

Sollthar wrote:

Care to explain which part makes my post skippable atom, apart from the fact you might disagree with my viewpoint - which is, as you know, not what the votes are made for?
Are you kidding me? Really?

We all know how the rating system is used, man, and you're trying to call me out on something like this? Really? Didn't care to call out any of the, oh I dunno, -30 is so ridiculous ratings I've received for harmless or even perplexingly un-skippable posts, but the moment I rate you down on something obvious you're onto me about it?

Well, my friend, I can damn near guarantee you that won't be the last -1 you see on that post.

Frankly, I find your post incredibly offensive not just to me- but to soldiers and veterans everywhere- and I think it is spoken in such a naive, cavalier, and unaffected tone it should be advised to be skipped.

To quote Andy Dufresne: "How can you be so obtuse, is it deliberate?"
Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2009, 2:59pm

Post 50 of 92

Simon K Jones

Force: 27955 | Joined: 1st Jan 2002 | Posts: 11683

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 5 Pro User MuzzlePlug User PowerPlug User PhotoKey 3 Plug-in User FXhome Movie Maker FXpreset Maker Windows User

FXhome Team Member

It's a good job you're not sounding completely foamy and irrational about this, Atom. crazy It was quite an interesting debate until you waded in and had to get all aggressive and righteous for no apparent reason! You seem to be doing that whole "getting opinion muddled up with facts" thing again.
Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2009, 2:59pm

Post 51 of 92

Xcession

Force: 42802 | Joined: 21st Mar 2001 | Posts: 1964

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 3 Pro User Windows User

SuperUser

Publicly stating that Sollthar's objector's viewpoint "disgusts you" is blatantly melodramatic hyperbole.

Is it really that incomprehensible to believe that workers are responsible for their work?

As has been pointed out, a soldier that refuses an order is probably not a very good soldier, but everyone has a line, everyone has some kind of moral compass. Everyone is at the end of the day responsible for their actions. It would be a bad officer that orders his troops to do something immoral, but it would be a bad soldier that didn't for a second question it.

Last edited Fri, 20th Feb 2009, 3:04pm; edited 2 times in total.

Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2009, 3:00pm

Post 52 of 92

Rockfilmers

Force: 2182 | Joined: 10th May 2007 | Posts: 1376

VisionLab User PhotoKey 4 User FXpreset Maker FXhome Movie Maker Windows User

Gold Member

Atom, I'm agreeing with you this time. And I may be one of those "War monger Conservatives", Sollthar, if you think about it, war is a necessary evil. Your basically calling the people are putting their life on the line for the good of other terrorists. A terrorist is a person who kills others for an idea, not to protect others. That would be a solider and they should not to be confused.
Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2009, 3:02pm

Post 53 of 92

Atom

Force: 4300 | Joined: 9th May 2004 | Posts: 7014

EffectsLab Lite User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User

Gold Member

Tarn wrote:


It's basically why I could never, ever join the military. smile
I'd agree with this rationale, and I do submit to this school-of-thought- I'd never join the military because of this; but were I drafted and forced into it all, especially in a situation like WW2, I wouldn't want someone telling me "it's all on you"-


No, as a spectator/citizen outside of the military I wouldn't criticize those for went to, say, Vietnam- they had to. They were forced to. What do you want them to do, all surrender their lives for convictions? At the end of the day- especially with something like WW2, someone's gotta do the deed.

And it's naive to ignore this.

And, once again, to treat war like 'workers responsible for their work' is ridiculous as well. Like Tarn has said of Rockfilmers- that's quite an oversimplifed view of it all.
_______________________________________

And I apologize if I come off strong; I'm just absolutely perplexed and, well, saddened that apparently all of you adults seem to be treating something so delicate and complex- the responsibility of killing- with such rashness.
Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2009, 3:05pm

Post 54 of 92

Xcession

Force: 42802 | Joined: 21st Mar 2001 | Posts: 1964

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 3 Pro User Windows User

SuperUser

So are you saying that a good soldier is one who isn't responsible?

And I apologize if I come off strong; I'm just absolutely perplexed and, well, saddened that apparently all of you adults seem to be treating something so delicate and complex- the responsibility of killing- with such rashness.
Thats an interesting way of pulling inverse-rank razz so in our defense I should perhaps state that as adults its likely we have experienced situations of extreme responsibility that give us a uniquely different perspective on moral responsibility in the workplace, which you are yet to experience.

Last edited Fri, 20th Feb 2009, 3:11pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2009, 3:06pm

Post 55 of 92

Joshua Davies

Force: 25400 | Joined: 21st Mar 2001 | Posts: 3029

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 5 Pro User MuzzlePlug User PowerPlug User PhotoKey 3 Plug-in User FXpreset Maker Windows User MacOS User

FXhome Team Member

Rating: +2

Tarn wrote:

This is the cornerstone of war, really. Go back a century or two and you've got hundreds of infantry soldiers marching to their deaths quite happily, because they've been told to. That complete willingness to obey orders was even more crucial back then, because wars were won on numbers more than they are today.
Not that happily I'm sure... Even as recently as WW2 infantry would have been shot by their own side if they didn't march forward (to their death).

The definition of being between a rock and a hard place.
Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2009, 3:10pm

Post 56 of 92

Simon K Jones

Force: 27955 | Joined: 1st Jan 2002 | Posts: 11683

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 5 Pro User MuzzlePlug User PowerPlug User PhotoKey 3 Plug-in User FXhome Movie Maker FXpreset Maker Windows User

FXhome Team Member

schwar wrote:

Tarn wrote:

This is the cornerstone of war, really. Go back a century or two and you've got hundreds of infantry soldiers marching to their deaths quite happily, because they've been told to. That complete willingness to obey orders was even more crucial back then, because wars were won on numbers more than they are today.
Not that happily I'm sure... Even as recently as WW2 infantry would have been shot by their own side if they didn't march forward (to their death).

The definition of being between a rock and a hard place.
Very good point, I hadn't considered that. In those cases, then, they genuinely had no choice.

These days, though, it's fairly unlikely that American or British soldiers will be executed for disobeying orders. So the moral responsibility has been returned to individual soldiers. Sure, they might be chucked out of the army, but they'd still be an honorable human being.
Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2009, 3:11pm

Post 57 of 92

Atom

Force: 4300 | Joined: 9th May 2004 | Posts: 7014

EffectsLab Lite User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User

Gold Member

First off: Excellent post, schwar. Entirely what I was trying to say initially- albeit with less drama. I still stand by my aggression with Sollthar's comments, but I agree entirely with your last statement.

As for Xcession: No, not at all.

I'm saying it's too complicated to treated like individual= individual responsibility = take what you deserve from those who despise you homeland.

Look, I'm against war; I'm against killing. But I can't be okay with people diminishing the overall necessity of it at times to a point of 'well, hey, you decided you wanted to be in war; you're gonna take the sh!t for it!' It's not like that, I don't think, and I think treating it even remotely close to that ideology is terrible. Responsibility in war isn't so black-and-white.

Like I said: I'd never voluntarily go to war: it'd be entirely against my convictions- but were I drafted and forced to go over and kill people, the last thing I would want is my country and society despising me for it. It's a pickle, I'll give you that. It's never clear one way or the other- and so I'm not saying killing in war is always justified, no, not at all.

I'm saying treating it with such a cookie-cutter attitude the opposite way is just as ridiculous and naive as treating it as if war is always justified and killing is always justified in it. Perhaps, even, more ridiculous.

And to clarify my point- I'm referring to war's with despicable outcomes on all ends with moral quandaries like WW2 or Vietnam. The latter because of the public anger toward soldiers forced into it all.

Last edited Fri, 20th Feb 2009, 3:15pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2009, 3:14pm

Post 58 of 92

Xcession

Force: 42802 | Joined: 21st Mar 2001 | Posts: 1964

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 3 Pro User Windows User

SuperUser

Ok that clears things up a little, particularly the fact that you're still talking purely about The Draft. As Tarn has pointed out, in modern warfare responsibility has very much been put back in the hands of the individual.
Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2009, 3:16pm

Post 59 of 92

Rockfilmers

Force: 2182 | Joined: 10th May 2007 | Posts: 1376

VisionLab User PhotoKey 4 User FXpreset Maker FXhome Movie Maker Windows User

Gold Member

But it sounds like what you are saying is that if an order is to kill the enemy or be kicked out of the military is a bad thing. Don't you realize that they are the enemy? The enemy does not care about what you believe. They will kill you. To say that going into was is marching to your death is kind of an ignorant view of the matter. Think about it this way. If you were given a gun and put in the middle of a battle, and where being shot at, would just stand there and tell them that we all need to get along?
Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2009, 3:16pm

Post 60 of 92

Atom

Force: 4300 | Joined: 9th May 2004 | Posts: 7014

EffectsLab Lite User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User

Gold Member

Xcession wrote:

Ok that clears things up a little, particularly the fact that you're still talking purely about The Draft. As Tarn has pointed out, in modern warfare responsibility has very much been put back in the hands of the individual.
Right, as my last amendment to my post I hope further clarified. Sollthar's statements were so general and all-encompassing, though, perhaps you can see my offense and aggression to them.

Rockfilmers wrote:

But it sounds like what you are saying is that if an order is to kill the enemy or be kicked out of the military is a bad thing. Don't you realize that they are the enemy? The enemy does not care about what you believe. They will kill you.
I think someone's drinking the I'm-13-years-old-and-my-parents-tell-me-war-is-good Kool Aid I was talking about earlier.

Like I said before, Rockfilmers, to treat war with such an oversimplified, cavalier view - on either side of the argument - is obtuse and wrong.

Last edited Fri, 20th Feb 2009, 3:18pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2009, 3:18pm

Post 61 of 92

Simon K Jones

Force: 27955 | Joined: 1st Jan 2002 | Posts: 11683

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 5 Pro User MuzzlePlug User PowerPlug User PhotoKey 3 Plug-in User FXhome Movie Maker FXpreset Maker Windows User

FXhome Team Member

Atom wrote:

Like I said: I'd never voluntarily go to war: it'd be entirely against my convictions- but were I drafted and forced to go over and kill people, the last thing I would want is my country and society despising me for it. It's a pickle, I'll give you that. It's never clear one way or the other- and so I'm not saying killing in war is always justified, no, not at all.
If I was drafted I'd still be entirely unable to kill people unless I was specifically forced into a self-defence situation. And I'd do my damnedest to avoid that kind of situation.

There are, of course, exceptions. If I'm absolutely certain that my life/my family's life/etc was in danger - from invasion etc - then I would probably be willing to fight to protect it. However, I'd have to be sure, and be presented with good evidence. And defence is the only kind of fighting I would ever do.

Fighting for economic or political reasons - as our countries have done in its major conflicts over the last few decades - I could absolutely not do, as my conscience wouldn't allow it. Killing people because they have a different political viewpoint, or because monetary interests are at risk? No thanks.

That's where the soldier's choice comes down.
Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2009, 3:21pm

Post 62 of 92

Atom

Force: 4300 | Joined: 9th May 2004 | Posts: 7014

EffectsLab Lite User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User

Gold Member

Tarn wrote:

Atom wrote:

Like I said: I'd never voluntarily go to war: it'd be entirely against my convictions- but were I drafted and forced to go over and kill people, the last thing I would want is my country and society despising me for it. It's a pickle, I'll give you that. It's never clear one way or the other- and so I'm not saying killing in war is always justified, no, not at all.
If I was drafted I'd still be entirely unable to kill people unless I was specifically forced into a self-defence situation. And I'd do my damnedest to avoid that kind of situation.

There are, of course, exceptions. If I'm absolutely certain that my life/my family's life/etc was in danger - from invasion etc - then I would probably be willing to fight to protect it. However, I'd have to be sure, and be presented with good evidence. And defence is the only kind of fighting I would ever do.

Fighting for economic or political reasons - as our countries have done in its major conflicts over the last few decades - I could absolutely not do, as my conscience wouldn't allow it. Killing people because they have a different political viewpoint, or because monetary interests are at risk? No thanks.

That's where the soldier's choice comes down.
And, once again, I'd agree with this statement. My grandfather saw it this way, I'm sure, as a man and minister of faith. In WW2 he was a conscientious objector, a soldier that didn't carry arms. But, he acknowledges the necessity of those that did, as I've talked to him, and he is happy to take on part of the burden for the killing that was necessitated or forced on them all. We can't all strong-will our convictions over war. I wish it was true, but it isn't. Not in a draft, not in crucial stuff like WW2.

My grandfather has told me this, for what it's worth, and I understand it- if don't agree with it.
Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2009, 3:24pm

Post 63 of 92

Xcession

Force: 42802 | Joined: 21st Mar 2001 | Posts: 1964

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 3 Pro User Windows User

SuperUser

Rockfilmers: I'm afraid you aren't listening or you have serious issues getting your point across. It sounds very much like you're copying and pasting something you've read without really understanding it.

As a soldier, one of the roles of your job is to kill those who attack you. No one in this thread is debating that point. The issue is when people are killed without good reason. When german soldiers in WW2 were forced into the army, then instructed to kill unarmed civilians, its at that point that people start to question the bounds of personal responsibility.

Last edited Fri, 20th Feb 2009, 3:26pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2009, 3:24pm

Post 64 of 92

Simon K Jones

Force: 27955 | Joined: 1st Jan 2002 | Posts: 11683

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 5 Pro User MuzzlePlug User PowerPlug User PhotoKey 3 Plug-in User FXhome Movie Maker FXpreset Maker Windows User

FXhome Team Member

Rating: +1

Going back a few posts, and risking Godwining the debate, Sollthar raised an interesting point. What would Hitler have been without thousands of obedient soldiers?

One can't help but wonder what history and the human race would be like if individuals were more...well....individual, and didn't abandon their thoughts and morals to the whims of others. Warmongerers and dictators wouldn't get anywhere if people didn't blindly go along with them.

All hypothetical, of course, but it's an interesting one.
Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2009, 3:27pm

Post 65 of 92

Sollthar

Force: 13360 | Joined: 30th Oct 2001 | Posts: 6094

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 2 Pro User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User MacOS User

SuperUser

Rating: +1

Whoa, since I get the feeling an intelligent, unemotional discussion is kind of impossible with atom on that subject, I'm going to spend my energy elsewhere. Though I'm not rating him down for disagreeing with him, which I obviously do (and refrain from voting him down on his usual, totally uncalled for tone too).

Tarn wrote:

However, as far as I can tell, to be a soldier you effectively surrender your right to personal opinion.
Yeah, which is, like you said, the reason I wouldn't ever join the military or police or any other establishment that could order me to take someone elses life.
My beliefs are, however disgusting that appears to be for some people, that you should always question what you're being confronted with and act upon your own beliefs - and take responsibility for what you did, good and bad.

Having said that, my idea of what "freedom" means probably differs largely from others. Then again, some people come from a culture which engages in wars a lot and I come from one which hasn't for centuries. Cultural difference as well I suppose.

Tarn wrote:

criticising them for specific military decisions is a waste of time really.
Totally. I was trying to explain why some people probably end up treating vietnam veterans like dirt. And while I can understand it, I don't sympathize with it (which is a difference in my book). I don't stand behind condemning these people, in my view, they're poor souls who made a big mistake. I also don't stand behind what they ultumately did. Kill people.

Rockfilmers wrote:

Sollthar, if you think about it, war is a necessary evil.
I have thought about it and didn't come to that conclusion. CONFLICT is inevitable, war, is a different thing though.
And for the record: I have never said there wouldn't be a cause I would be willing to kill and die for - I'm sure there is, but it would be mine and mine only. And I would have to take responsibility for it.

rockfilmers wrote:

Your basically calling the people are putting their life on the line for the good of other terrorists. A terrorist is a person who kills others for an idea, not to protect others.
Erm, yes. Didn't somewhere above someone say "soldiers fight for freedom"? Freedom is an idea. They kill to protect that very idea. The whole "It's us vs the evil, bad terrorists" routine doesn't work with me, far from it.

Who's the terrorist and who isn't is a matter of who you're asking. George Bush is the terrorist for some, Osama bin Laden is the terrorists for others. Both believe in their idea and call the other wrong and are taking lifes for that very idea - to take a modern analogy.

schwar wrote:

Even as recently as WW2 infantry would have been shot by their own side if they didn't march forward (to their death).
Good point. However, I'd still argue it's the same thing: You still need people to shoot deserters and follow the order to do that.

The US very existance is based on defying orders of the current power and fight against supression back when the US came to be. They didn't follow orders, they said "no, we'll do what we believe in." and everyone's proud.
But when I advertise that very principle, it's disgusting.

All I'm saying is this: you always CAN defy orders. Wheter you call it "desertion" or "revolution" mostly depends on the outcome and again, who you're asking.

Last edited Fri, 20th Feb 2009, 3:30pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2009, 3:27pm

Post 66 of 92

Atom

Force: 4300 | Joined: 9th May 2004 | Posts: 7014

EffectsLab Lite User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User

Gold Member

This is the very reason I didn't agree with this movie or its message. It's far too cookie-cutter-oversimplified; and a confused kind of 'simplified' at that.

Oh, and looking into the Cinema forum it look as though someone just okay'd a buttload of movies, Tarn. biggrin
Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2009, 3:39pm

Post 67 of 92

Rockfilmers

Force: 2182 | Joined: 10th May 2007 | Posts: 1376

VisionLab User PhotoKey 4 User FXpreset Maker FXhome Movie Maker Windows User

Gold Member

OK, I have my own opinion. You want to see a war monger? Go talk to my dad Atom. I hate war, but like I said it's a necessary evil. Do you know whats worse then my "Over simplified view? The War is bad no matter what view. Stop treating conservatives like they are a bunch of ignorant war mongers just because we think that freedom is worth dieing for does not mean that we have an oversimplified view. BTW, what happened to not discussing politics?

Last edited Fri, 20th Feb 2009, 3:41pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2009, 3:40pm

Post 68 of 92

Xcession

Force: 42802 | Joined: 21st Mar 2001 | Posts: 1964

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 3 Pro User Windows User

SuperUser

Rating: +2

You're really cute but I can't understand what you're saying!
Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2009, 3:51pm

Post 69 of 92

Simon K Jones

Force: 27955 | Joined: 1st Jan 2002 | Posts: 11683

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 5 Pro User MuzzlePlug User PowerPlug User PhotoKey 3 Plug-in User FXhome Movie Maker FXpreset Maker Windows User

FXhome Team Member

Rockfilmers wrote:

OK, I have my own opinion. You want to see a war monger? Go talk to my dad Atom. I hate war, but like I said it's a necessary evil. Do you know whats worse then my "Over simplified view? The War is bad no matter what view.
Hmm, I don't really understand the pro-war, 'warmonger' position. Surely everybody - even people that that think war is sometimes necessary - are anti-war? I'd like to think that every single person is anti-war and would like to see an end to war, even if they think that at the current stage of human evolution that isn't possible. To think otherwise would be pretty reprehensible.

Stop treating conservatives like they are a bunch of ignorant war mongers just because we think that freedom is worth dieing for does not mean that we have an oversimplified view.
I'm pretty suicide bombers have said almost exactly the same thing as you. ie, the whole "it's worth dying for!!!!" mentality. It's the first step into extremism.

For me, it comes down to preferring to find something worth living for than something worth dying for.
Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2009, 3:55pm

Post 70 of 92

GoldenBengal

Force: 0 | Joined: 22nd Jan 2009 | Posts: 4

Member

Soldiers are supposed to learn discipline. Why would an ex soldier kill 12 of his classmates? (Even if it was Vietam)
Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2009, 4:09pm

Post 71 of 92

Sollthar

Force: 13360 | Joined: 30th Oct 2001 | Posts: 6094

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 2 Pro User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User MacOS User

SuperUser

Rating: +2

freedom is worth dieing for
I have nothing against that. Die for whatever you want and feel like. Die for freedom, for god, for good, for truth, for family or whatever else. Personlay, I believe my life is my own and I can take my own life or risk my own life for anything that I find suitable.
It's the freedom is worth KILLING for that's the issue. When you start taking other people's lifes for what you believe in.
Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2009, 4:41pm

Post 72 of 92

Arktic

Force: 9977 | Joined: 10th Nov 2003 | Posts: 2785

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 2 Pro User FXhome Movie Maker FXpreset Maker Windows User MacOS User

SuperUser

Rating: +3

Well, I know I'm jumping in quite late in the day, and this isn't *hugely* relevant to the film itself, but I thought I'd just comment on this particular comment:

Sollthar wrote:

I disagree. Sure, the people giving evil orders are to blame as well, but at the end of the day, every order needs someone to carry it out. And in my view, people are responsible for their own actions - even if they follow an order. The "I just followed orders" argument doesn't fly for me. It was still the soldier who pulled the trigger instead of going "wait a second, this is wrong." and not doing it.
Whilst I agree to an extent that hiding behind the 'I was just following orders' argument is often just cowardice (such as in the Abu Ghraib incident, and many other similar cases); you know as well as anybody else that the majority of people are simply 'programmed' to follow orders. We're hardwired, either as a society or as a species, to be compliant. Lots of people think that they're not, but the evidence suggests that most people would not question the orders of an authority figure (Milgram, anyone?). I think criticising people (such as WW2 soldiers) for following orders is, in the most case, as pointless as criticising the tides or the changing of the seasons.

I'm not saying it's right, or that we shouldn't work towards reaching a point where people are no longer willing to do evil things 'just because' they were told to do so - but human beings are, in general, compliant and willing to do things that later they might regret.

Cheers,
Arktic.
Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2009, 4:47pm

Post 73 of 92

Atom

Force: 4300 | Joined: 9th May 2004 | Posts: 7014

EffectsLab Lite User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User

Gold Member

First off once again: Excellent post, Arktic.

My beliefs are, however disgusting that appears to be for some people, that you should always question what you're being confronted with and act upon your own beliefs - and take responsibility for what you did, good and bad.
There's a distinction I want to be made here, man. And I hope you don't see my attitude as being totally one-sided and overdramatic. Really, it isn't, and I don't mean any offense or insult by what I said or am saying. The edge to my argument wasn't what you were saying, at least in a broad sense, as I generally agree with you. If you'll look back, it is the way in which this view is dealt with- most-especially concerning things like the draft- that I tried to make explicitly clear I had a problem with. I'd never submit to saying your viewpoint is outright 'disgusting'. I've grown too much to resort to that kind of thing (this all discounting the fact that, once again, I agree with you on a broad, vague sense). I wrote:

Atom wrote:

Disarmament and anti-war stuff is fine within reason............To treat it so cavalierly, so easy to say 'oh, I just won't do this- yeah'..........is disgusting, Sollthar.
I hope that clears it up a little bit. I don't mean to fuel a silly, overdramatized argument, I just want you to understand what I meant.

Sollthar wrote:

his usual, totally uncalled for tone too
Oh, please.... rolleyes

And RockFilmers, only once did I use the word 'conservative' in relation to war and warmongering, and it was only to insulate my initial point from 'cultural/demographic bias' since I (fortunately or unfortunately) reside in Texas, widely and wrongly considered by the world a hyper-war, hyper-conservative state. (Not to mention the residence of President Bush.)
Posted: Fri, 20th Feb 2009, 5:37pm

Post 74 of 92

Sollthar

Force: 13360 | Joined: 30th Oct 2001 | Posts: 6094

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 2 Pro User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User MacOS User

SuperUser

Always nice to have you join a discussion Arktic. smile

I think criticising people (such as WW2 soldiers) for following orders is, in the most case, as pointless as criticising the tides or the changing of the seasons.
I have to say I can't quite follow the analogy eg find the comparison of humans and lifeless things quite odd. crazy

I'd say there's a vast difference between the tides and people. Tides have no conscience. They have no will. I can't convince the tides of anything, nor do they act on belief. They simply can't, they haven't got one. Tides don't act, they "are being acted" - if you get what I mean. They have no morals, hence carry no moral responsibility.

Humans however, I would make that vital disctinction, can - to what exact degree is a matter of discussion and philosophical viewpoint, that we both know and apparently disagree on - act on their own, act on their morals and have a their own will. So while the tides are not morally responsible, people are.

but human beings are, in general, compliant and willing to do things that later they might regret.
Of course, we all agree on that I think. That doesn't change the fact they're, in my view, morally responsible for what they chose to do - unlike the tides. (Did you seriously compare humans to tides? smile )

I don't critisice following orders in general. The only thing I state, firmly so, is that in my view, you are morally responsible for whatever ends up being your action, good or bad.
That doesn't say a single moral issue is simple, which has been wrongfully assumed my statement somehow suggests. My statement doesn't say anything about a singled out incident. There's probably nothing more complex then moral issues. But the very basic core, to me, comes down to this:

YOU have to weigh all the complex attributes, YOU have to think it all through, YOU have to act and YOU have to take the responsibility for it within what you are ABLE to do.
And I also beliebe you WILL be judged by it - by other people. Judged differently, according to THEIR morals.

That's the moral concept I believe in and I was trying to put into words. To have that commented on with words like "disgust" suggests a high double standard if it's judged that by people who are so quick to call the "you insulted my beliefs" card when the situation is reversed.


In terms of veterans... I don't hate them, I don't mock them, I don't throw food after them and wouldn't if I had the chance for many, complexly interwoven reasons. I have compassion for the most likely very, very difficult situation they've been in. But I do not believe they're innocent in the outcome. That's my moral position. Agree with it or don't, that is, entirely up to anyone else.
Posted: Sat, 21st Feb 2009, 9:08pm

Post 75 of 92

JasonX1024

Force: 1390 | Joined: 13th Jan 2008 | Posts: 492

VisionLab User Windows User FXhome Movie Maker

Gold Member

Rating: -4

Me as a future defender of my country relate to this video and its character. I dont know what you guys are talking about, but if I were to be called on to defend my country I would go and do it. Its not about pride, I just think that If you wont fight for your country, then you dont deserve to call it your country. And if you say"NO ITS NOT THAT I DONT LOVE MY COUNTRY, I DONT BELIEVE IN KILLING INNOCENT PEOPLE WHO HAVE DONE NOTHING"....We all have sins,...matter of time before we have to pay for them. ---ooooo cinematicy...
Posted: Sat, 21st Feb 2009, 11:33pm

Post 76 of 92

D3L3T10N

Force: 317 | Joined: 23rd Jun 2007 | Posts: 472

CompositeLab Pro User FXhome Movie Maker MacOS User

Gold Member

Sollthar wrote:


YOU have to weigh all the complex attributes, YOU have to think it all through, YOU have to act and YOU have to take the responsibility for it within what you are ABLE to do.
And I also beliebe you WILL be judged by it - by other people. Judged differently, according to THEIR morals.
Maybe that's how it works in civilian life, but I don't think that's how it goes in the military. In the military there is a clear-cut chain of command and authority, and if you're a grunt, you do what your superior tells you to do. You expect that he knows more/is more experienced than you, and he's the one who got promoted, not you, so who are you to judge his decisions? How do you know you even have all the facts? Anyway, it just seems to me that military life and civilian life are polar opposites, and you cannot and should not apply civilian-world ethics to a military situation.

Just my .02
Posted: Sun, 22nd Feb 2009, 7:39am

Post 77 of 92

Atom

Force: 4300 | Joined: 9th May 2004 | Posts: 7014

EffectsLab Lite User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User

Gold Member

Oooooh, D3L3TION you almost made a good, clear point there, but two points you kinda hit pretty fuzzy:

Human morale and ethics trump this illusion of civilian/military ethics. There may be breaking points to ethics in the military- and certainly many of these are justifiable, but it doesn't mean ethics change entirely; as if there's a new set.

Also, to delineate your point into 'you don't know all the facts to begin as a grunt, etc.' in reference to war: I know what you're trying to say, but phrasing it the way you did pretty much makes it look like you have the opinion of the ignorant warmonger. I know this likely isn't you, but to most people- in America or around the world- blindly following command into bloodshed is everything that is wrong with war. (If, hypothetically, there is something right that comes out of war.)

This isn't to say that everyone should fully inform you of everything about everyone in every warfare situation. In a flashbang rescue in Somalia you don't necessarily have to know everything about one of the militants guarding a kidnapped soldier to take him out- you trust your superior's intel. But there are levels of trust and levels of knowledge that are necessary going into any warfare situation, and I think everyone would argue that a lot of both are needed before any action can be taken.
Posted: Sun, 22nd Feb 2009, 9:34am

Post 78 of 92

Sollthar

Force: 13360 | Joined: 30th Oct 2001 | Posts: 6094

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 2 Pro User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User MacOS User

SuperUser

Good point D3L3TION!

I'd say you're (almost) spot on. A good soldier is one who follows orders without question. The military doesn't work when every soldier questions every order he's given - he might not know all the facts or simply disagree. But, as you correctly said, the military is no democracy, it's a dictatorship. Top orders, bottom follows.

But I think the key here is, you're not born into the military. You're born as a civillian, and individual. So it's you who decides to abandon that freedom by joining the military to follow someone elses orders. And with that decision, you don't just abandon any responsibility in my book. And you always have the decision open to you to leave the military and gain that freedom back (I'll ignore the "you'll get shot when you don't follow" scenario, as I hope, the US military doesn't work that way. If it does, then I'm glad I'm no US citizen.).


JasonX here scares me really. I'm sure he'll make a perfect soldier.

I personally won't "fight" for my country. I also don't "love" my country. A "country" is a totally artificial construct of ideas, made up by loads of totally different people. Some ideas I follow, some I don't. The "take it all or leave it all" approach doesn't work for me here. Then again, I think patriotism is something incredibly odd, weird and mostly slightly disturbing and I never had any of it.
Do I like living in switzerland? Sure. Do I believe switzerland is one of the few if not only country with an actual democracy? Yes. Would I invest work, power and energy to keep it that way? Yes, of course.
Would I fight, die and kill for switzerland? Not in a million years.
Posted: Sun, 22nd Feb 2009, 9:39am

Post 79 of 92

Atom

Force: 4300 | Joined: 9th May 2004 | Posts: 7014

EffectsLab Lite User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User

Gold Member

Sollthar wrote:

JasonX here scares me really. I'm sure he'll make a perfect soldier.
Speaking demeaningly of someone in third person as if they weren't part of the conversation to begin with, Sollthar, kinda sours your whole post for me. Regardless of how preposterous his opinion may be to you or me- and certainly it is to me, for the record- it doesn't warrant such condescension. And maybe I'm being hypocritical here, but hey, whatever.

I don't mean to belabor the point of all this, but I must point this out while it's pertinent. For all the sh!t people say about me and being condescending- I see this in your posts all the time and no one seems to call you out on it. Well, I'd just like to see less of it. I'm sure it's not outright entirely intentional, so I thought I'd point it out to you. This is all disregarding the fact that you're also inadvertently diminishing and insulting the prestige and formula of military entirely by jokingly considering JasonX the 'perfect soldier'.

And for the record: I'd fight, die, and kill for America were I called upon by my country in the right situation. I think your apathy to the idea is really just a reflection of where you live. And hey, this isn't a bad thing, your country has remained neutral, not always for the better, for decades if not entirely for centuries. And I won't hold this against you or commend you for it. Just don't insult someone who feels such allegiance to his country. I'm convinced by the lack of passion in your post- it's simply a social and national mindset that's never either been presented to or absorbed by you; perhaps entirely because of your country's lack of history in war and, by extension, sacrifice.

Once again, not a bad thing. But please try and understand if not condone the idea of dying for a country, killing for it. Without doing so, you're closing yourself off from the conversation. I'm not saying your post indicates you're entirely ignorant to it all, but there are words/phrases in it that make me curious as to what causes/prevents you from acknowledging/appreciating/understanding the whole mentality- and having hints of disdain for it all.

And once more for the record: It's naive and oversimplified to act like you can just up and quit the military. You can't, not even in voluntary service. Desertion/going AWOL is a punishable offense, even in America. And even if you do desert the military, you're essentially stuck wherever you're posted anyway. To act like 'well, you can just leave' isn't worth debating- it's a completely silly oversimplified notion to begin with.
Posted: Mon, 23rd Feb 2009, 11:37am

Post 80 of 92

Simon K Jones

Force: 27955 | Joined: 1st Jan 2002 | Posts: 11683

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 5 Pro User MuzzlePlug User PowerPlug User PhotoKey 3 Plug-in User FXhome Movie Maker FXpreset Maker Windows User

FXhome Team Member

Essentially it comes down to tribalism, I think.

If you're a tribal kinda guy, they you're going to be patriotic (whether it's to your xbox, your football team, your state or your country). And you'll fight for your tribe. Sometimes it'll be the good fight, sometimes it won't. The biggest problem I have with this outlook in life is that the tribal lines are almost always completely arbitrary (and are becoming increasingly irrelevant as the world globalises).

If you're not a tribal kinda guy, you live in Switzerland.
Posted: Mon, 23rd Feb 2009, 12:10pm

Post 81 of 92

Atom

Force: 4300 | Joined: 9th May 2004 | Posts: 7014

EffectsLab Lite User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User

Gold Member

If you live in Switzerland, you're negating responsibility.......on purpose. smile
Posted: Mon, 23rd Feb 2009, 9:18pm

Post 82 of 92

JasonX1024

Force: 1390 | Joined: 13th Jan 2008 | Posts: 492

VisionLab User Windows User FXhome Movie Maker

Gold Member

Atom wrote:

Sollthar wrote:

JasonX here scares me really. I'm sure he'll make a perfect soldier.
Speaking demeaningly of someone in third person as if they weren't part of the conversation to begin with, Sollthar, kinda sours your whole post for me. Regardless of how preposterous his opinion may be to you or me- and certainly it is to me, for the record- it doesn't warrant such condescension. And maybe I'm being hypocritical here, but hey, whatever.

I don't mean to belabor the point of all this, but I must point this out while it's pertinent. For all the sh!t people say about me and being condescending- I see this in your posts all the time and no one seems to call you out on it. Well, I'd just like to see less of it. I'm sure it's not outright entirely intentional, so I thought I'd point it out to you. This is all disregarding the fact that you're also inadvertently diminishing and insulting the prestige and formula of military entirely by jokingly considering JasonX the 'perfect soldier'.

And for the record: I'd fight, die, and kill for America were I called upon by my country in the right situation. I think your apathy to the idea is really just a reflection of where you live. And hey, this isn't a bad thing, your country has remained neutral, not always for the better, for decades if not entirely for centuries. And I won't hold this against you or commend you for it. Just don't insult someone who feels such allegiance to his country. I'm convinced by the lack of passion in your post- it's simply a social and national mindset that's never either been presented to or absorbed by you; perhaps entirely because of your country's lack of history in war and, by extension, sacrifice.

Once again, not a bad thing. But please try and understand if not condone the idea of dying for a country, killing for it. Without doing so, you're closing yourself off from the conversation. I'm not saying your post indicates you're entirely ignorant to it all, but there are words/phrases in it that make me curious as to what causes/prevents you from acknowledging/appreciating/understanding the whole mentality- and having hints of disdain for it all.

And once more for the record: It's naive and oversimplified to act like you can just up and quit the military. You can't, not even in voluntary service. Desertion/going AWOL is a punishable offense, even in America. And even if you do desert the military, you're essentially stuck wherever you're posted anyway. To act like 'well, you can just leave' isn't worth debating- it's a completely silly oversimplified notion to begin with.
Its not that i love my country, i love the people in it and Id do anything to protect them. With that understood...I may not be the perfect soldier...I may be. BUT like may have said who have gone down that path those who wont go down that path, will never understand why we do it.
Posted: Mon, 23rd Feb 2009, 10:28pm

Post 83 of 92

No Respite Productions

Force: 985 | Joined: 4th Dec 2006 | Posts: 482

EffectsLab Pro User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User

Gold Member

Rating: +3

JasonX1024 wrote:


Its not that i love my country, i love the people in it and Id do anything to protect them. With that understood...I may not be the perfect soldier...I may be. BUT like may have said who have gone down that path those who wont go down that path, will never understand why we do it.
That is the vaguest statement I've ever heard, with the vaguest sentiment I've ever heard thrown in for good measure... and that's not even including the broken nature of your writing.

You need to understand what you are protecting people from instead of just blindly protecting them from whatever reason you are given. There must be a justifiable reason given as to why you need to "do anything to protect the people in your country". Without that, you'll find an otherwise noble military engine being mis-used for, oh let's just say... oil?

BUT! Let's replace the obvious example of "things done wrong" with the most recent example of things being done right. When you look at the NATO response to the massacre of Kosovo Albanians, you can see how incredibly noble and right a military machine can actually be.

Those who don't go "down that road" are pefectly capable of understanding why people do, just as people who "do go down that road" are more than capable of understanding why people don't. It just an open mind from both sides.

I actually work with people in the Army and Navy on an infrequent basis, and my comments above are a reflection on how I percieve them to be. Intelligent and warm hearted people who deal with more complexities than many of us could handle, and they do it with all the morales and ethics that you'd find in any conscientous objector.

It's actually a shame that the film being discussed in this topic is so confused in it's execution and message because it has certainly galvanised a very intelligent discussion, which is more than can be said for a recent multiple Oscar winning film.

NR
Posted: Tue, 24th Feb 2009, 7:50am

Post 84 of 92

Sollthar

Force: 13360 | Joined: 30th Oct 2001 | Posts: 6094

VisionLab User VideoWrap User PhotoKey 2 Pro User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User MacOS User

SuperUser

Its not that i love my country, i love the people in it and Id do anything to protect them.
Probably a difference between us. I don't "love the people in my country" either, I don't know the majority of them. I love a few selected ones and would protect them - maybe even with my life. But my country has 7 million people in it and, despite the fact they all live within the boundaries that are called "switzerland" on the maps other people drew, I just see too little common ground to put them all into one basket.

Guess I'm just a really deeply rooted individualist. smile

Excellent post above by the way No Respite!

If you're not a tribal kinda guy, you live in Switzerland.
Heh, if you knew. Every canton in here is incredibly tribal and pokes fun at the other and in some parts, they are completely unwilling and unable to work together. It's an odd country I live in. smile


I guess, most people don't realize they have that individual power. We get told to follow rules the day we are born: Social rules, school rules, job rules, law rules. We're born into a pre-existent system of rules. And most people just do that, they follow... People usually go nuts and wildly confused as soon as they don't have anyone who tells them what to do or pats them on the back with a "good job boy, here have a cookie" (I presume, it's one of the main reasons religion exists, but lets not go into that).
Then again, if we all would break out of these rules, our world would probably collapse. So on the other side, I assume we can all be happy people don't always realize the power they have. But it's also a shame. It's both. Complex thing, that. tard
Posted: Tue, 24th Feb 2009, 2:30pm

Post 85 of 92

Rockfilmers

Force: 2182 | Joined: 10th May 2007 | Posts: 1376

VisionLab User PhotoKey 4 User FXpreset Maker FXhome Movie Maker Windows User

Gold Member

Well, the way I look at it, a government is a necessary evil. It's very sad, but we should not work for the government, they should work for us (After all, WE are the ones who pay politicians). A little government only works though if the community is actively involved in events like voting and not to follow leaders blindly. The thing is 9/10 politicians will cheat to gain power, and you might as well just take democracy out of it.
Posted: Tue, 24th Feb 2009, 6:18pm

Post 86 of 92

ben3308

Force: 5210 | Joined: 24th May 2004 | Posts: 6433

VideoWrap User FXhome Movie Maker Windows User

Gold Member

Rockfilmers wrote:

Well, the way I look at it, a government is a necessary evil. It's very sad, but we should not work for the government, they should work for us (After all, WE are the ones who pay politicians).
Sorry, but the fundamental flaw I see here is that you think of the government as some large corporation. Governments are just people behind ideas, nothing more. We are working towards a more perfect union, not for it and not it for us.
Posted: Tue, 24th Feb 2009, 6:52pm

Post 87 of 92

Moonloon1

Force: 2344 | Joined: 15th Oct 2007 | Posts: 334

VisionLab User VideoWrap User MacOS User

Gold Member

ben3308 wrote:

Sorry, but the fundamental flaw I see here is that you think of the government as some large corporation. Governments are just people behind ideas, nothing more. We are working towards a more perfect union, not for it and not it for us.
Excellent point ben3308... On the military taking/giving orders: Boot camp is where the military weeds out those that can't take instructions and follow them exactly as given. Simple things like stenciling your underwear must be done the way you are told, in the place shown. Why? Because in a war situation you must be able to respond as instructed, however there is a point that it is expected you do the right thing. Your training will teach you when it's time to do as told or make a snap decision for the safety of your unit.
Posted: Tue, 24th Feb 2009, 8:00pm

Post 88 of 92

Rockfilmers

Force: 2182 | Joined: 10th May 2007 | Posts: 1376

VisionLab User PhotoKey 4 User FXpreset Maker FXhome Movie Maker Windows User

Gold Member

Sorry, but the fundamental flaw I see here is that you think of the government as some large corporation. Governments are just people behind ideas, nothing more. We are working towards a more perfect union, not for it and not it for us.
I was only making an analogy to government. What I'm saying is that if they make a mistake, they should answer to us. How else should a government work? We pay them, they work for us. If they are corrupt and we don't like what they are doing, we throw them out. Of course, you also have a constitution to follow, which it's self can also be flawed. That's what's great about democracy, if the people don't like it, they fix it!
Posted: Tue, 24th Feb 2009, 8:46pm

Post 89 of 92

JasonX1024

Force: 1390 | Joined: 13th Jan 2008 | Posts: 492

VisionLab User Windows User FXhome Movie Maker

Gold Member

No Respite Productions wrote:

JasonX1024 wrote:


Its not that i love my country, i love the people in it and Id do anything to protect them. With that understood...I may not be the perfect soldier...I may be. BUT like may have said who have gone down that path those who wont go down that path, will never understand why we do it.
That is the vaguest statement I've ever heard, with the vaguest sentiment I've ever heard thrown in for good measure... and that's not even including the broken nature of your writing.

You need to understand what you are protecting people from instead of just blindly protecting them from whatever reason you are given. There must be a justifiable reason given as to why you need to "do anything to protect the people in your country". Without that, you'll find an otherwise noble military engine being mis-used for, oh let's just say... oil?

BUT! Let's replace the obvious example of "things done wrong" with the most recent example of things being done right. When you look at the NATO response to the massacre of Kosovo Albanians, you can see how incredibly noble and right a military machine can actually be.

Those who don't go "down that road" are pefectly capable of understanding why people do, just as people who "do go down that road" are more than capable of understanding why people don't. It just an open mind from both sides.

I actually work with people in the Army and Navy on an infrequent basis, and my comments above are a reflection on how I percieve them to be. Intelligent and warm hearted people who deal with more complexities than many of us could handle, and they do it with all the morales and ethics that you'd find in any conscientous objector.

It's actually a shame that the film being discussed in this topic is so confused in it's execution and message because it has certainly galvanised a very intelligent discussion, which is more than can be said for a recent multiple Oscar winning film.

NR
YEs sorry, it came out kind of weird which was unintentional. But, Im not talking about protecting scum in my country i mean innocents who are in danger. Also I wasnt talking about this current war, ANY THREAT AT ALL. Sometimes people just ask me if I will enlist and they say oh your gonna get shot and killed. OBVIOUSLY they do not know what anything is like there or in the military. I hate those people so oblivious...
Posted: Thu, 26th Feb 2009, 9:17am

Post 90 of 92

Jonnie

Force: 1420 | Joined: 10th Jun 2005 | Posts: 129

VisionLab User VideoWrap User

Gold Member

i love the dogma feel. great piece
Posted: Tue, 14th Apr 2009, 2:28am

Post 91 of 92

MrBond

Force: 760 | Joined: 7th Jan 2007 | Posts: 1

CompositeLab Lite User EffectsLab Pro User

Gold Member

I am an ex soldier myself. You hit this right on the nail. By far one of my favorite movies on here. Keep it up. Thank you for showing people a taste of what it's really like.
Posted: Sun, 14th Feb 2010, 5:30pm

Post 92 of 92

Logan100100

Force: 475 | Joined: 25th Dec 2009 | Posts: 16

CompositeLab Pro User FXhome Movie Maker

Gold Member

I must agree, it felt like I was literally there, good job!