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Audio, DVD's, and Labeling

Posted: Sun, 1st Feb 2009, 6:33pm

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Pixel edit

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First off is there a way to upgrade audio from normal to sevral different surround sound options. If so is there a way to give the user of the DVD an option to choose one of these surround sound options?
If not is there a way to set up during capturing to get Surround sound?

On the disc labeling note, Is there a way to make the label a permenant part of the disc with full color, other than lightscribe?
Thanks!
Pixel Edit cool
Posted: Sun, 1st Feb 2009, 7:37pm

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Axeman

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I'm not entirely clear what you are asking. Are you creating a DVD, and want to include several surround options? If so, each one has to be created seperately, then the user can select which one they want to hear.

During Capturing, do you mean while filming? Surround editing is done during post-production. Most sound effects and foley is going to be recorded after filming anyway, so editing each sound into the surround field is not too difficult.

As far as disc labeling, your other option is to order professionally replicated disks, with on-disc printing, from someone like www.discmakers.com .
Posted: Sun, 1st Feb 2009, 7:40pm

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pdrg

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If you have the audio already as (say) Dolby 5.1 and stereo mixes, you can burn multiple audio tracks to DVD depending on your DVD burning software.

You can buy DVD blanks which are inkjet printable in suitable printers. If you pay a bit more, you can get ones that effectively self lacquer and become splashproof. Very clever (and at a price).
Posted: Sun, 1st Feb 2009, 8:31pm

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Moonloon1

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I do CD/DVD packages and use a pair of Epson R220 inkjet printers (not made anymore). I buy the generic ink, CD-R and DVD-R blanks and cases at inkjetsuperstore.com for about half the price of anyone else. The newer printers that print on CD/DVD's suck because you have to buy Epson ink, they also have a counter chip inside that will only allow a set amount of printing, then the printer stops working. Also on CD/DVD's get Taiyo Yuden they are the best and the industry standard. And yes discmakers does the best job at duplication if you are going to outsource. As far a Dolby surround I have not ventured down that road yet. But I know DVD Studio Pro (mac) will allow end users to select sound options.
Posted: Sun, 1st Feb 2009, 11:20pm

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Pixel edit

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so basicly what you are telling me is I could go film a car passing by and it will automaticly situate the sound to work with surround sound the correct way.
Pixel Edit cool
Posted: Mon, 2nd Feb 2009, 12:32am

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Axeman

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Heavens no. You'll have to open the audio in a surround-capable audio editing application, (most good video editors can also handle surround mixing) and manually keyframe the sound of the car moving from left to right (or back to front, or whatever). This has to be done for all the sounds throughout the entire production, then you can export 6 individual channels to create a 5.1 mix.

Where it could get difficult is if the car is driving past while someone on screen is talking. Then keyframing the surround position of the car without also moving the dialog embedded in the same audio track is essentially impossible, so you would have to replace (re-record) both the dialog and the car sounds to create a good surround mix.
Posted: Mon, 2nd Feb 2009, 12:49am

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Moonloon1

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Pixel edit wrote:

so basicly what you are telling me is I could go film a car passing by and it will automaticly situate the sound to work with surround sound the correct way.
Pixel Edit cool
So to begin with how are you capturing audio? If you are using your camera (Cannon ZR800) I doubt it records in Surround Sound, more likely stereo. So this would mean you need an audio editing program that allows you to create and encode Surround Sound mixes. ProTools is the film industry standard and the required plug-ins for creating SS mixes are an added expense. So for a 5.1 SS speaker system you need a center channel, left-right mains and L-R rear configuration and a sub-woffer. The recording studio will also need amplifiers to power the speakers. So with your car in stereo passing LtoR it can be inserted, the stereo pair, and you decide where in the surround you want them placed. Usually the center channel is voice, but your car could travel from the left main through the center then to the right main. Or you can send the audio from say right rear to the left front or both rears to the two fronts or center. Each channel in a SS mixer has a joy stick (virtual or real) so that you can pan/move an audio track into any channel. ProTools will memorize the movements with automation. I hope this answers your question. Good luck.

Last edited Mon, 2nd Feb 2009, 12:53am; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Mon, 2nd Feb 2009, 12:50am

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Pixel edit

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OK that makes more sense now thanks for the explanation. So is there a way to capture this sound while filming to make this process easier. (Specialy positioned mics etc.)
Thanks!
Pixel Edit cool
Posted: Mon, 2nd Feb 2009, 1:18am

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Axeman

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Not really. What makes surround mixing easiest is to record each audio element seperately. Basically, the exact opposite of using on-set audio. If you can posiiton mics so as to get a fair degree of isolation on various sound sources, that would certainly help, and would work to some degree, but then the question is really, "Is it going to be easier to run a bunch of mics while filming, or loop the audio afterwards?"
Posted: Mon, 2nd Feb 2009, 1:41am

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Pixel edit

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Well my main filming right now is trains, so it would be really hard to sepparate the train from the bell of the hate andthe cars siting at a crossing, I dont know really how I am going to do it.
Pixel Edit cool
Posted: Mon, 2nd Feb 2009, 2:18am

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Moonloon1

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There are surround sound mics that record in the round, so to speak, with five mic elements in an egg shaped mic. You would need to be able to record five tracks at once.

Last edited Mon, 2nd Feb 2009, 5:04am; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Mon, 2nd Feb 2009, 2:49am

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Pixel edit

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Would a portable mixer with a car battery work do you know? I always wanted to design something like this. If not do you have any ideas?
Thanks!
Pixel Edit cool
Posted: Mon, 2nd Feb 2009, 5:14am

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Moonloon1

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Pixel edit wrote:

Would a portable mixer with a car battery work do you know? I always wanted to design something like this. If not do you have any ideas?
Thanks!
Pixel Edit cool
????? Hmm odd, well they do make mixers that are battery powered, but you MUST have a multi-track recorder that can record multiple mic's/audio tracks. And for recording: crappy mixer's, mics and bad recording equipment are going to give you crap. Rule of thumb Crap in Crap out. I would use a laptop with a portable firewire device that can record at least 8 inputs/mic's at once. Then I would use five studio condenser mics and get five separate audio tracks of the train. But you will still need a surround sound encoder in your NLE or a recording studio with one. Here is an article on creating a Surround Sound Mix with Final Cut Pro: http://fcproducer.com/2007/02/export-51-surround-sound-from-final-cut-pro/
Posted: Mon, 2nd Feb 2009, 8:24pm

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Pixel edit

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cool Makes sence to me, but if you have those five imputs going into one computer at one plug wouldnt the computor blend them together?
Wouldnt sinking sound with the video then be pretty hard?
Thanks!
Pixel Edit cool
Posted: Mon, 2nd Feb 2009, 8:44pm

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Axeman

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No, with multiple-input devices you can usualy assign each input to a seperate track in your recording softwrae, so each one is recorded seperately, but simultaneously. I use an 8-channel box all the time for recording live drums. You can mix them all down to a stereo channel if you want, but its not necessary.
Posted: Mon, 2nd Feb 2009, 8:55pm

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Pixel edit

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Ok I'm kinda lost so if you put five imputs coming from this one mic to one audio plug you can record each of these seprately?
Pixel Edit cool
Posted: Mon, 2nd Feb 2009, 9:39pm

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Moonloon1

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NOT AN AUDIO PLUG the one line/cable going into the computer is a FIREWIRE CABLE that can handle up to 16 separate audio channels/tracks. These tracks can be used in a Surround Sound system and placed in any of the Surround Sound channels. Go look up ProTools systems at www.digidesign.com.
Posted: Mon, 2nd Feb 2009, 10:39pm

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Axeman

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Have you ever seen pictures or footage from a recording studio, or a concert, where they have a big mixing board, with lots of knobs, faders and switches? Like this:



That's a pretty small one, but illustrates the point fine. The whole device can connect to your computer via a Firewire cable. Each row of knobs is a seperate channel. You can plug a different mic into each channel, and record each channel to a seperate audio file. The mixing board illustrates this well, but there are lots of other input devices that work the same way but are much smaller. Once you have everything recorded, then you can take the audio files from each track, adjust the volume of each one and add effects to each one as you see fit, then as a final step, you mix them together into a single stereo track. This is how standard audio recording works. Rather similar to working with multiple video tracks in your editor, or multiple layers in EffectsLab. Each layer/track/channel can be tweaked individually, before rendering them all into a single file.

In your case, during mixing, when you set the volume of each track and so forth, you can also position each sound in the surround field, and then you would export to 5.1 audio instead of a stereo audio track.
Posted: Mon, 2nd Feb 2009, 11:11pm

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Pixel edit

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Ok that makes alot more sence, Thanks for the further explanation, so kinda like the cable that runs from my camera to the computer for capture which is a firewire cable.
Pixel Edit cool
Posted: Mon, 2nd Feb 2009, 11:53pm

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Pixel edit

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Ok on the topic of surround sound Microphones what would you guys recomend for a good surround sound mic. Any particular Brand names,or styles?
Pixel Edit cool
Posted: Tue, 3rd Feb 2009, 12:06am

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Moonloon1

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http://letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q=Surround+Sound+Microphones
Posted: Tue, 3rd Feb 2009, 1:11am

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Pixel edit

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Thanks for being a smart elec about it. All I did was ask for YOUR recomendation not googles, belive me I searched google for surround sound Microphones. I wanted to know who recomended what from personal experience.
Thanks to others for not being smar about it.
Pixel Edit cool
Posted: Tue, 3rd Feb 2009, 2:02am

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pdrg

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Seriously, have you considered forgetting about 5.1? Surround Mics will not be very useful as you'll have the devils own job untangling 6 tracks of tape noise/handling noise/mains hum - far better to create the soundtrack with separate sounds and a joystick! Seriously, movies do not just set up a surround mic and shoot, all that surround sound you hear is made up in the studio from layers!

Also, how do you plan to distribute it? Does your DVD software include a 5.1 encoding license? If not, it may just do stereo, which would make your extra work (and it is a minimum of 3x the work, realistically more like 5x plus) worthless :-$

Instead how about concentrating on getting a good crisp stereo mix?
Posted: Tue, 3rd Feb 2009, 3:02am

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Pixel edit

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Well I would not have too much tape noise because this is live filming of Real trains and for the most part when one goes by you are not going to hear much tape noise, I would be capturing it through a laptop too.

I do not have any software yet, I am setting up a studio right now, but I am seeing what I may need so that I can start a budget list and a price list. I may not actully do this, but for the most part I want to try and do this.
Thanks!
Pixel Edit cool
Posted: Tue, 3rd Feb 2009, 3:02am

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Moonloon1

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Pixel edit wrote:

Thanks for being a smart elec about it. All I did was ask for YOUR recomendation not googles, belive me I searched google for surround sound Microphones. I wanted to know who recomended what from personal experience.
Thanks to others for not being smar about it.
Pixel Edit cool
Sorry, but I thought I had explained SS quite clearly in an earlier post. Besides you can't do SS with WMM anyway. And my recomendations are based on the hour or so I spent today with dogpyle.com and google looking up an answer for you.
Posted: Tue, 3rd Feb 2009, 9:37am

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pdrg

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Sounds like a fun project, but for my money I'd record it *mono* and then position the sound in post. Much cheaper and far fewer quality risks. But as others have mentioned you'll need to get a NLE that supports it, a DVD burner that supports it, etc., so we're talking several hundred bucks before you start getting mics and mixers.

All the best with however you choose to spend your hard-earned!