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Happy Earth Day

Posted: Wed, 22nd Apr 2009, 10:13pm

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Paradox Pictures

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Happy Earth Day to all FXhomers. biggrin
Posted: Wed, 22nd Apr 2009, 10:15pm

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TheOutlawAmbulance

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Same to you and everyone here. biggrin Remeber to turn off the lights in a room you are not in.

Saving the Earth... One tree at a time!!! Happy Earth Day Movie Kid4!-Storm
Posted: Wed, 22nd Apr 2009, 10:27pm

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DVStudio

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Happy earth day all!



DV
Posted: Wed, 22nd Apr 2009, 10:46pm

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Coureur de Bois

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"Earth Day" is just an arbitrary day designed to make typically apathetic people feel good about themselves. Basically, it helps those kinds of people feel not so guilty about turning a blind eye to the destruction of the Earth the other 364 days out of the year. "Earth Day" is about as significant as "Administrative Assistant Day".

Typical Taker Culture delusional BS.

Do yourselves and the human race a favor and read this:
http://www.amazon.com/Ishmael-Adventure-Spirit-Daniel-Quinn/dp/0553375407/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1240439855&sr=8-1
Posted: Wed, 22nd Apr 2009, 11:03pm

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Sollthar

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What the heck is "Earth Day"? Is captain planet coming to town?
Posted: Wed, 22nd Apr 2009, 11:26pm

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JasonX1024

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Sollthar wrote:

What the heck is "Earth Day"? Is captain planet coming to town?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA I wish HA. That was good.
Posted: Wed, 22nd Apr 2009, 11:33pm

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Serpent

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Gorion wrote:

"Earth Day" is just an arbitrary day designed to make typically apathetic people feel good about themselves. Basically, it helps those kinds of people feel not so guilty about turning a blind eye to the destruction of the Earth the other 364 days out of the year. "Earth Day" is about as significant as "Administrative Assistant Day".
I would personally say apathetic people, as a result of Earth Day, end up feeling good about themselves. Some people actually care, and they KNOW a lot of people don't care. That's the point of the holiday. Not saying it's working, but it certainly doesn't hurt. Earth Day isn't really about saving the Earth ON THAT DAY. It's about raising awareness and spreading the concept of being environmentally conscious day-to-day life. It's about promoting environmentalism. It certainly wasn't designed to make people feel good. You're just being pessimistic about the day. Though some valid points about society come out of all that, of course.
Posted: Thu, 23rd Apr 2009, 2:06am

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Terminal Velocity

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Happy Earth Day. O_O

I don't agree with the major environmentalist thing, but I can respect the effort of environmentalists to further their cause. (Big pretty speech. Translation below.)

I don't particularly care...but don't let this stop you.

I have done this to afford you the choice of reading my more blunt opinion. Don't read it if you don't want to.
Posted: Thu, 23rd Apr 2009, 4:45am

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Atom

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Sollthar wrote:

What the heck is "Earth Day"? Is captain planet coming to town?
Yeah, but his 'Planeteer Europe tour' didn't pass through Switzerland. Sorry.
Posted: Thu, 23rd Apr 2009, 6:39am

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Sollthar

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but his 'Planeteer Europe tour' didn't pass through Switzerland. Sorry.
Damn. Now even the planet skips us. Just because we lowered that bank secret. sad
Posted: Thu, 23rd Apr 2009, 7:39am

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Evman

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I'll just post my current facebook status here to relay my thoughts:

Facebook wrote:

Evan Scott is happy to be celebrating Earth Day - another superficial holiday where we complain about a very important problem but don't actually do anything to fix it.
Posted: Thu, 23rd Apr 2009, 8:38am

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Atom

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+1 for keeping things the same around here and being a pessimistic douche.
Posted: Thu, 23rd Apr 2009, 8:57am

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Aculag

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Atom wrote:

+1 for keeping things the same around here and being a pessimistic douche.
If you actually believe that Earth Day helps, you are so amazingly naive (blindly optimistic?) Evan's being a realist, not a pessimist. Spending one day a year actively trying to help the environment on a relatively small scale isn't going to do jack. Maybe if the same amount of people had the same amount of initiative every day, it would make an impact. MAYBE. But I doubt it. wink

The sad fact is that, while Earth Day is intended to raise awareness for environmentalism, it hasn't really helped in 40 years. And doing it once a day for 40 or 100 or 200 more years isn't going to help, either. We make too large a negative impact to make any positive improvements. Also, Earth Day is only a US thing. Even if the entirety of US industry were to shut down completely on Earth Day, the rest of the world would more than counter it.

Yep.
Posted: Thu, 23rd Apr 2009, 4:22pm

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No Respite Productions

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I've +1 a lot of good comments on here about the phoney baloney day.

I'm sure someone, somewhere is making money out of this ridiculous concept.

Don't get me wrong I'm completely pro-environment, but as said many times before now... action must be taken if we want to actually do any good for the human race. Not stupid little gestures like recycling plastic bags (which help in a smallish way)or having a randomly picked day to celebrate.

But big significant leaps like removing any dependency for oil and coal and using only renewable clean energies such as wind, solar and hydrogen fuel cells. Sadly steps that can't be taken by the average Joe on the street.

I'll pack my soap box up now smile
Posted: Thu, 23rd Apr 2009, 5:16pm

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Terminal Velocity

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Aculag wrote:

If you actually believe that Earth Day helps, you are so amazingly naive (blindly optimistic?)
He's right, I'm afraid. People have probably been doing Earth Day and Earth Hour for a few decades at least, and all they get is trash talk in return. I'm not pointing out anyone in particular, but that's how it happens. What I and a few friends agree on is that far more people actually profited by being pro-environment, they would do it happily. It's just that very few people are willing to go out of their way for charity, especially if they don't entirely agree with the cause. If clean car fuel or whatever was cheaper, then nobody would actively ignore it just to spite the environment.

But can we not get too deep into this discussion? We had this same talk on another forum and it turned into a flame war.
Posted: Thu, 23rd Apr 2009, 10:45pm

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Pooky

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Aculag wrote:

Atom wrote:

+1 for keeping things the same around here and being a pessimistic douche.
If you actually believe that Earth Day helps, you are so amazingly naive (blindly optimistic?) Evan's being a realist, not a pessimist. Spending one day a year actively trying to help the environment on a relatively small scale isn't going to do jack. Maybe if the same amount of people had the same amount of initiative every day, it would make an impact. MAYBE. But I doubt it. wink

The sad fact is that, while Earth Day is intended to raise awareness for environmentalism, it hasn't really helped in 40 years. And doing it once a day for 40 or 100 or 200 more years isn't going to help, either. We make too large a negative impact to make any positive improvements. Also, Earth Day is only a US thing. Even if the entirety of US industry were to shut down completely on Earth Day, the rest of the world would more than counter it.

Yep.
To actually stop global warming instead of just slowing it down (so we all die in like 2400 instead of 2300), we'd have to totally cut carbon emissions anyway. So stuff like Earth Day and Kyoto aren't going to help in the long run without alternative energy sources.
Posted: Fri, 24th Apr 2009, 12:33am

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D3L3T10N

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Aculag wrote:

If you actually believe that Earth Day helps, you are so amazingly naive (blindly optimistic?)
If not for Earth Day, would we even be talking about this? Obviously it does something. Seems to me that you feel pretty good about yourself, though I think the effect might be slightly different for people who don't take pride in chaining themselves to trees.
Posted: Fri, 24th Apr 2009, 1:54am

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Terminal Velocity

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D3L3T10N wrote:

Aculag wrote:

If you actually believe that Earth Day helps, you are so amazingly naive (blindly optimistic?)
If not for Earth Day, would we even be talking about this? Obviously it does something. Seems to me that you feel pretty good about yourself, though I think the effect might be slightly different for people who don't take pride in chaining themselves to trees.
I don't know. I don't have faith that one day where about half or less of the earth's people turn off their lights (yet leave other appliances running such as computers) will make a drop in the ocean of emissions that cause these alleged environmental disasters. I, for one, don't think there are any "crises" that we can do much about.
Posted: Fri, 24th Apr 2009, 4:11am

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ssj john

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I'll give you eight reasons why earth day is a complete waste of time...
Posted: Fri, 24th Apr 2009, 4:18am

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Thrawn

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ssj john wrote:

I'll give you eight reasons why earth day is a complete waste of time...
Thank you.
Posted: Fri, 24th Apr 2009, 6:09am

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Atom

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I'm sorry, but are you guys that fuckking naive and stupid?

You don't believe global warming exists? Are you shitting me??? Good god, this is the reason radical conservatism (or liberalism for that matter) really scares me- it raises kids that are lead to believe dire matters are either trivial or nonexistent. Ridiculous, especially the high-and-mighty attitude people take on something so blatantly obvious as this.
Posted: Fri, 24th Apr 2009, 2:59pm

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ssj john

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Atom, please...

The only one acting high and mighty is you. Have you even read any conflicting material too global warming? Al Gore made a movie on it and now the science is settled? Did you even read the link I posted? There are a plethora of scientist that don't believe global warming either exist, or is a threat to mankind.

I know you live in Texas and its hot there all the time, and it always has been...so it may seem like the worlds about to boil, but when it snows a FOOT here in mid April, I tend to raise my eyebrow a little.

My point is, I'm not saying that global warming doesn'texist. I'm saying that the science isn't settled.

Please do not get me wrong. I'm a boyscout, I believe in leaving camp grounds cleaner than I found them. I often pick up trash when I'm on a hike, and always through my own away. I do believe that we should take care of the earth. But I also don't care for a fake holiday that tries to bully me into feeling like the earth is about to bake...and that its my fault.

Simmer down now.

Give.me.a.break.
Posted: Fri, 24th Apr 2009, 3:10pm

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Sollthar

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so it may seem like the worlds about to boil, but when it snows a FOOT here in mid April, I tend to raise my eyebrow a little.
Heh, that very line shows an amusing lack of scientific knowledge on what the global warming phenomenon actually does... Imagine that, it WILL get a lot colder too. And that's no contradiction, just science that goes a little bit beyond 9th grade physics. smile

The global warming is a very real phenomenon. It's just not as simple as "the world just gets hotter and it's all your fault" or "let's stop all the cars and we'll be fine". It's also a phenomenon that, indeed, scientists have different thesis on and that is much debated between scientists from all over the world. Not if it actually exists or not, but what it actually is, what is it's cause and where it leads to.
Though, as with most scientific subjects that are debated in the world of science, casual people who really know nothing about the subject or know some basics they learned in college which surely doesn't qualify them to understand a problem the best and most knowledgeable experts on the subject aren't 100% sure on make the whole thing much more complicated then it already is.

And when it comes to human kinds ability to change their behavior, they will, once they're left with no other chance. Hardly any earlier. And we haven't reached this point yet, sadly. Earth day won't change that fact.
Posted: Fri, 24th Apr 2009, 5:19pm

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Thrawn

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Atom wrote:

I'm sorry, but are you guys that fuckking naive and stupid?

You don't believe global warming exists? Are you shitting me??? Good god, this is the reason radical conservatism (or liberalism for that matter) really scares me- it raises kids that are lead to believe dire matters are either trivial or nonexistent. Ridiculous, especially the high-and-mighty attitude people take on something so blatantly obvious as this.
God, Atom, is it really naive and stupid to question a theory that really has yet to be proven? Did you read the link posted, or have you just accepted Al Gore's video to be fact and not even consider the arguments against it? I mean, whose really the naive one here? The one who question the "evidence" or the one who goes with the flow, no matter the mounting evidence against it?

Oh, and I happen to believe that man does not affect the climate change, so what? Just because my opinion differs from yours, is it really neccisary to give me a -1? Is a difference in opinion really worth calling me f&cking naive and stupid?

EDIT: Oh yeah, or you could throw another -1 at me for absolutely no reason. That's cool as well.. But instead of just giving me a -1, how about posting why.
Posted: Fri, 24th Apr 2009, 5:58pm

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Sollthar

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Thrawn wrote:

Did you read the link posted, or have you just accepted Al Gore's video

John wrote:

Al Gore made a movie on it and now the science is settled?
Erm.. You guys do realise that there's a bit more then mr "I would have liked to be president"'s film on the subject, do you? You can never know whether all the important worldwide science actually gets overseas...

Actually, the Uni here in Zuerich does a large percentage of the leading research on the subject. I got two friends there who work on their doctors regarding the subject. There's plenty of evidence, the matter of discussion is how to interprete it and what to make of it.
But obviously, a weblink to an email written 6 years ago disqualifies it all...

Quite obviously Thrawn, you have no idea what you're talking about. To even suggest "there is no evidence" unfortunately qualifies an opinion to those very criteria atom named. Not that fact that it differes makes it stupid and naive, the fact it is stupid and naive does. Just to clear that up.

Last edited Fri, 24th Apr 2009, 6:09pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Fri, 24th Apr 2009, 6:07pm

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No Respite Productions

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Thrawn wrote:


Did you read the link posted, or have you just accepted Al Gore's video to be fact and not even consider the arguments against it?

Oh, and I happen to believe that man does not affect the climate change, so what? Just because my opinion differs from yours...

I hate to say this, but Al Gore's video is not the only voice speaking out about global warming. He has certainly helped the cause by creating a prolific and well publicised documentary, but there were plenty of people who were talking about this stuff waaaaaay back in the 70s and probably further than that.

You opinion I'm afraid in this case is wrong, and thus not valid as a counter argument. It is actually a wrong opinion because hundreds of scientists from around the world with far greater knowledge and years of study have found that we are causing a lot of the problems.

By and large the scientific community do actually agree that global warming is happening and that mankind is part responsible for it's increase (along with natural events such as volcanos).

Any scientist who disagrees with man's impact on global warming is in the extreme minority and probably employed by an oil company.
Posted: Fri, 24th Apr 2009, 6:13pm

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Sollthar

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Hehe, please, tell me that people don't think Al Gore is the center of the global warming sciene or anything more then a guy who made one of about 1000 documentaries (given, the most successful) about something that universities, science stations and scientists research and debate world wide?
If not, my continuous amusement for the american education system might just get a new boost...
Posted: Fri, 24th Apr 2009, 6:19pm

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Thrawn

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I never said that there wasn't evidence, so please don't put words in my mouth. Second of all, I don't see you presenting any evidence to suggest that global warming is real. In fact, all your telling me is that "I know two people who..." which really doesn't help your point an incredible amount. Also, I do happen to know what I'm talking about. I've looked into the subject a good amount over the last year.

I may not be an expert, but I do know that (1.) according to temperature measurements, that the increase of carbon dioxide has has no effect on the weather, and (2.) the amount of carbon dioxide produced by human activity is approximately 3% of the carbon dioxide produced by the other processes that make up the carbon cycle. So, if you want to convince me, show me the evidence.

EDIT: Okay, give me as second to read and respond to No Respite's post.

EDIT 2: I'll probably make a whole post going over your post, No Respite, but what people were talking about this in the 70's? Unless I'm mistaken, everyone was talking about global cooling!
Posted: Fri, 24th Apr 2009, 6:48pm

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No Respite Productions

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Thrawn wrote:



EDIT 2: I'll probably make a whole post going over your post, No Respite, but what people were talking about this in the 70's? Unless I'm mistaken, everyone was talking about global cooling!
I wouldn't bother, you'll only end up solidifying the arguments as to why you are wrong.

Forgive me if I trust the opinion of several hundred eminent scientists, leaders in their field and subject matter experts, some with a lifetime of experience over someone who has "looked into it a good amount over the last year".

I've looked into filmaking "a good amount over the last year"... that does not make me <insert your choice of best director ever here>.

You are indeed not an expert, which is why I will listen to the UN's IPCC and not you.
Posted: Fri, 24th Apr 2009, 7:06pm

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Thrawn

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I love how you completely ignore what I said in my post and just say.. "I'm going to believe someone else.." unsure Okay, I can see that no matter the amount of evidence I provide, your simply going to ignore it. You should know, however, that over 31,000 American Scientists do NOT believe in global warming being created by man. Of course, I fully expect you to be the typical enviromentalist and ignore what I'm saying...
Posted: Fri, 24th Apr 2009, 7:59pm

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Evman

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This is why I never understood this position of "it's only a theory".

I can somehow understand it for Evolution, because there is no cost/benefit either way. I'll just vaguely quote JOHN MCCAIN here (yeah you heard me right).

We should invest in clean energy sources now. If it turns out we were wrong and Global Warming wasn't a big threat, then all we've done is created a cleaner world for our children, which will ultimately have cheaper energy sources. If Global Warming turned out to be a very real problem, and we did nothing... We'd all be dead.

So our options are - give our children a cleaner world to live in... or sentence them to death.

There is NO detriment to investing in cleaner energy sources. So why is this even an issue? People just don't like Al Gore, so they want to stubbornly fight against everything he says even if it means our demise?

Don't be that childish people. Wake up.
Posted: Fri, 24th Apr 2009, 8:31pm

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Fill

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Global Warming™

It might exist, but I'm not really convinced; however, I am convinced that it's being used for profit because corporations turned a possibly real issue into the "go green" trend.

I think George Carlin says it best.

Last edited Fri, 24th Apr 2009, 8:38pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Fri, 24th Apr 2009, 8:32pm

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Atom

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Yeah, Evman, but John Maverick is a maverick. A MAVERICK!

Frankly, Thrawn and ssjohn, you guys are my friends and I generally agree with you- but this is such a cost/opportunity thing overwhelmingly against your point that you sound so incredibly obtuse that I'm embarrassed for you. The issue may not align in everyone's eyes the same way, and human beings aren't entirely to blame- certainly I hate the nihilistic liberal 'we screwed over the earth, it's our fault, now we're all going to die!'

But the hyper-conservative reaction is just as startling, if you not moreso. Because, as we all know, action over nothing is much better than no action whatsoever. A thing I've argued with Evman over for years now, Pascal's Wager on religion, is just as applicable here. Doing nothing over something and doing something over nothing are not the same things- and the former has a much bigger consequence.

And way to be dramatic, I didn't give you that -1.

Last edited Fri, 24th Apr 2009, 8:40pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Fri, 24th Apr 2009, 8:38pm

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jawajohnny

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Evman wrote:

We should invest in clean energy sources now. If it turns out we were wrong and Global Warming wasn't a big threat, then all we've done is created a cleaner world for our children, which will ultimately have cheaper energy sources. If Global Warming turned out to be a very real problem, and we did nothing... We'd all be dead.

So our options are - give our children a cleaner world to live in... or sentence them to death.

There is NO detriment to investing in cleaner energy sources. So why is this even an issue? People just don't like Al Gore, so they want to stubbornly fight against everything he says even if it means our demise?

Don't be that childish people. Wake up.
EXACTLY what I was going to say. First off, Al Gore isn't the center of the global warming theory FACT. Second, it's not as simple as the planet getting hotter. It's pretty widely accepted that global warming is happening, but there are various theories as to how it's going to kill us all. For example, some scientists think global warming will trigger an ice age (and no, I'm not referring to The Day After Tomorrow). Glaciers in the Arctic and Antarctica are melting. If they keep melting, sea levels go up, and some of the current U.S. coastline will be underwater, including my home, Cape Cod. Currently, there's a huge debate out here as to whether a huge wind-farm should be installed in Nantucket Sound. The biggest argument against it is that it will look ugly. Seriously. Save the world, or have some wind turbines in the water miles off the coast? Which will it be?

To all the skeptics: Tell me why you don't think global warming is happening. What problem do you have with all the evidence that's been presented. Don't say, "Oh, well a lot of scientists deny it." Well if you're a scientist, who can back your opinion up, then fine. But if you don't really know the science, then you're denying it on a personal level, just to be stubborn.

http://www.climatecrisis.net/thescience/

http://congress.blogs.foxnews.com/2009/04/24/gore-equates-globalwarming-skeptics-with-bernie-madoff/

Evman is right. Wake up. If you can disprove the accepted facts, then fine, but otherwise you just look plain stupid. And just like Atom, I'm embarrassed for you.
Posted: Fri, 24th Apr 2009, 8:51pm

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Serpent

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Sollthar wrote:

If not, my continuous amusement for the american education system might just get a new boost...
There are plenty of ignorant people in every country. The schools are not to blame. Especially American schools.

jawajohnny wrote:

will be underwater, including my home, Cape Cod.
What?! NO! I didn't know you lived there, I have a lot of memories at Cape Cod.

And +1 Evman, fantastic way of wording it, 100% agree.
Posted: Fri, 24th Apr 2009, 8:52pm

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Thrawn

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Jawajohnny, I did present evidence and why I disagreed with global warming. It may be a good idea to actually read my posts before saying that you're embarrised for me wink

Okay, I stand by my beliefs that global warming isn't directly affected by man. It's also ridiculous to believe that man can make a difference when all of human activity only produces 3% of carbon in the carbon cycle in the first place. But hey, that's just me.

It just annoys me when most people just say "oh, well the scienctists all say..." bla bla bla, instead of they themselves truly looking at the facts. I'd really like to shy away from getting more -1's, so if someone would like to continue this debate, PM's might be a better alternative. smile
Posted: Fri, 24th Apr 2009, 9:05pm

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B3N

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We're all going to die anyway so this whole, "The Earths dying" doesn't bother me.

How mellow. razz
Posted: Fri, 24th Apr 2009, 9:18pm

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jawajohnny

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Heh, sorry Thrawn. That post wasn't directed at anyone in particular, just all skeptics in general. So sorry if it seemed directed at you. I was in "rant" mode, if you will. In fact, my mom doesn't believe in global warming, and whenever I mention it to her, she says, "I don't like Al Gore." wall I'm kind of just wondering how so many people can dispute legitimate facts. Nothing against anyone personally. smile

Serpent wrote:

What?! NO! I didn't know you lived there, I have a lot of memories at Cape Cod.
So you've lived, or perhaps vacationed here? I'm in Harwich, which is a great place for filmmaking, really scenic.

EDIT: My favorite "stop global warming" commercial: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvA8N_NiuZ4
Posted: Fri, 24th Apr 2009, 9:24pm

Post 39 of 113

Pooky

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I think one of the best books I've read on the subject was "Cool It" by Bjorn Lomborg. Here's the main premise:

Global warming exists, and we must act. But we must think before we act. He then goes on to say that the only way to STOP global warming is to find and adopt new energy sources, and that anything else is a WASTE of resources that could otherwise have been spent on fixing other important problems such as disease, famine, etc.

Seriously, whether you believe in global warming or not, read the book. You will like it.
Posted: Fri, 24th Apr 2009, 10:41pm

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Evman

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Thrawn wrote:



Okay, I stand by my beliefs that global warming isn't directly affected by man. It's also ridiculous to believe that man can make a difference when all of human activity only produces 3% of carbon in the carbon cycle in the first place. But hey, that's just me.

It just annoys me when most people just say "oh, well the scienctists all say..." bla bla bla, instead of they themselves truly looking at the facts. I'd really like to shy away from getting more -1's, so if someone would like to continue this debate, PM's might be a better alternative. smile
A 3% difference is very important.

Do you have a PHd in Environmental Studies? Have you researched the Earth and Climatology for years? No? Neither have I. Until you can do these calculations yourself, all you can do is listen to scientists, whether it be the ones who are right or the ones who are crackpot wrong... razz

And Atom - that's below the belt man, bringing in Pascal's Wager. I'm agreeing with you here, must you spark debate over this too? My believing or disbelieving of religion in no way affects the entire world like my belief or disbelief in Global Warming does, and you know it. There is absolutely a cost to me believing in something I don't truly believe. That is inapplicable, low, and petty of you to bring up, and I'm not going to argue it with you here - for someone as touchy to being insulted as you usually are, that was pretty malicious.



I think the most important thing to realize in this situation is that there are no SIDES to this issue... The Earth is getting warmer as a result of some kind of Global Warming. That is a fact, proven by scientific data and research. It's not entirely relevant who/what caused it. All that matters is that IT'S HAPPENING. If we, as a species, want to survive, plugging our ears and yelling NAHNAHNAHNAHNAH isn't going to help. We're in this together - we have to act together.

Personally, I'm not going to let you fools get in the way of that.
Posted: Fri, 24th Apr 2009, 10:46pm

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ssj john

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Atom wrote:

Yeah, Evman, but John Maverick is a maverick. A MAVERICK!

Frankly, Thrawn and ssjohn, you guys are my friends and I generally agree with you- but this is such a cost/opportunity thing overwhelmingly against your point that you sound so incredibly obtuse that I'm embarrassed for you. The issue may not align in everyone's eyes the same way, and human beings aren't entirely to blame- certainly I hate the nihilistic liberal 'we screwed over the earth, it's our fault, now we're all going to die!'

But the hyper-conservative reaction is just as startling, if you not moreso. Because, as we all know, action over nothing is much better than no action whatsoever. A thing I've argued with Evman over for years now, Pascal's Wager on religion, is just as applicable here. Doing nothing over something and doing something over nothing are not the same things- and the former has a much bigger consequence.
You're not getting what I'm trying to point out though...I don't have this so called hyper-conservative opinion that global warming isn't happening. I'm just skeptical that its something to be hysterical about. Thats about as simple as I can make it.

You also completely ignore where I said I'm in favor of cleaning up the earth. I agree that action is better than no action. I want cheap, economically smart, eco friendly vehicles, sure. I want clean air, sure. But good things take time. Lets get there the right way, instead of running around screaming "we're all gonna BURN!"

Sollthar wrote:

Hehe, please, tell me that people don't think Al Gore is the center of the global warming sciene or anything more then a guy who made one of about 1000 documentaries (given, the most successful) about something that universities, science stations and scientists research and debate world wide?
No, but he was a huge driving force into persuading people that we are all gonna die because of it...And by and large a good portion of Americans believe him without ever looking into it further. I don't claim to be any kind of environmental expert but at least I consider both sides of the argument.

Evman wrote:

Do you have a PHd in Environmental Studies? Have you researched the Earth and Climatology for years? No? Neither have I. Until you can do these calculations yourself, all you can do is listen to scientists, whether it be the ones who are right or the ones who are crackpot wrong...
So if you don't have a PHD in environmental studies...then how do you know who's right and who's wrong? Give me a break man, there are plenty of opinions on both sides, and plenty of good valid arguments on both sides...Aren't liberal left-wingers the ones who claim to be "open-minded"? Yet you can't even consider the possibility that the world goes through periods of heating and cooling, and that might be normal?Or that global warming might actually not be a horrific thing.

Has anyone noticed that they don't even call it global warming anymore, they now refer to it as "climate change."
Posted: Fri, 24th Apr 2009, 11:04pm

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No Respite Productions

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Thrawn wrote:

I love how you completely ignore what I said in my post and just say.. "I'm going to believe someone else.." unsure Okay, I can see that no matter the amount of evidence I provide, your simply going to ignore it. You should know, however, that over 31,000 American Scientists do NOT believe in global warming being created by man. Of course, I fully expect you to be the typical enviromentalist and ignore what I'm saying...
Oh my god, you are seriously going to throw a petition website at me and claim that I should pay attention to it? A website that is completely geared to one side of an argument? A website that is completely geared around the signatures of American scientists (who really did get it all wrong in the first place, and seemed to heed to Bush era fairyland nonsense).

If you had delivered to me something which took a completely bi-partisan view on the subject and had found global warming to be complete hoo haa then I'd have been inclined to pay more attention. But this drivel is so one sided (unlike my sources if you paid attention to them) that I can barely make it past the page you linked to.

31,000 scientists? Where are their credentials? My high school science teacher was technically a scientist but I wouldn't necessarily trust him to disprove the effects of global warming. He had the sort of qualifications the website says you must have in order to qualify for a signature, but I've got news for you, that guy knew jack s*** about the consequences of global warming.

Stop throwing these joke of a websites at me to prove your point! The UN IPCC (an entity you all too conveniently seem to gloss over in your replies) is made of of eminent scientists across the globe. I'll take their word over a random website any day of the week and so will any right thinking person.
Posted: Fri, 24th Apr 2009, 11:28pm

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Evman

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ssj john wrote:



Evman wrote:

Do you have a PHd in Environmental Studies? Have you researched the Earth and Climatology for years? No? Neither have I. Until you can do these calculations yourself, all you can do is listen to scientists, whether it be the ones who are right or the ones who are crackpot wrong...
So if you don't have a PHD in environmental studies...then how do you know who's right and who's wrong? Give me a break man, there are plenty of opinions on both sides, and plenty of good valid arguments on both sides...Aren't liberal left-wingers the ones who claim to be "open-minded"? Yet you can't even consider the possibility that the world goes through periods of heating and cooling, and that might be normal?Or that global warming might actually not be a horrific thing.

Has anyone noticed that they don't even call it global warming anymore, they now refer to it as "climate change."
I believe it's being referred to as "The Climate Crisis" because "Global Warming" sounds too pleasant.

And you obviously totally ignored my whole quip about the fact that there are no sides. I am not a liberal left-winger. For most of my life I have considered myself a conservative right winger. Now I am comfortably moderate - away from the disgusting opinions of the extreme ends of the spectrum. But that has nothing to do with this - as I've already mentioned.

I don't have a PHd in that field - and I even said that in my post. But when most scientists say one thing, based on years of data and evidence, I'll tend to believe them, over the few who disagree. If you want alternative energy sources anyway, then what's the problem with getting them out there sooner?
Posted: Fri, 24th Apr 2009, 11:59pm

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ssj john

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wow. You've completely lost any credibility with me No respite. You personify to me everything that is contradictory about left thinkers. I hardly feel like giving time to respond to you. But...I digress.

Your sources are by no means give an even handed look at global warming...Don't try to pretend they do. Your mind is settled on the science, rather than the science being settled. There's no point in debating this any further, because you'll ignore anything that contradicts your apparent "set in stone" view of the climate change...

You completely miss the point of Thrawn even linking that for you...I'm embarrassed I have to do this, but, I'm feeling generous right now so let me outline this for you in a very simple two step process.

Step 1: you posted a link to a wiki page about a scientific consensus (Completely oblivious to the fact that nobody was disputing that) Claiming by and large scientists agree that global warming is happening.

Step 2: Thrawn than responded with a link that provided the signatures of a considerable amount of scientists that are skeptical.

31,000 scientists? Where are their credentials? My high school science teacher was technically a scientist but I wouldn't necessarily trust him to disprove the effects of global warming.
This again shows your complete ignorance... First of all, there credentials are listed next to there names, and for further support read this. These aren't high school science teachers, sorry for that mix up.

Secondly, this petition has nothing to do with disproving the "effects of global warming." Its purpose is to illustrate exactly what Thrawn intended it too, and that is that the science on Global warming is not settled. Understanding the simple concept that Global warming is happening does not make you an "intellectual." Especially you, because it seems you didn't acquire that knowledge through any kind of effort or thought.

Lastly, to destroy any hint of open-mindedness you may have once had, you say this: Any scientist who disagrees with man's impact on global warming is in the extreme minority and probably employed by an oil company.The U.N's report on global warming is contributed by 600 scientists, this petition has 31,000....Tell me who's in the minority? Have you researched any of the credentials of those scientist you believe? I mean before I posted this?

Also, tell me this. If the link to the petition was such a weak attempt to defend thee opposing view, why then did you have a melt down about it? I mean, you made a pretty big scene about something you tried to pass off as trivial and illegitimate.

And you obviously totally ignored my whole quip about the FACT that there are no sides.
About the fact? what fact? There being no sides is your opinion, not fact. I didn't ignore it, I just didn't acknowledge it because I don't agree with it. I'm not going to argue with you about it because you're mind is made. I appear to be more moderate on this issue than you are. I'm not acting as though you've dishonored my family, friends, my dog and my ancestors all the way back to Adam when you say you disagree with me. I'm not calling you evil and naive because you believe in Global warming. You, and even more so Atom, are acting as though I have insulted everything you stand for by not accepting Global warming as a threat to mankind. Doesn't that seem a little extreme to you?
But when most scientists say one thing, based on years of data and evidence, I'll tend to believe them, over the few who disagree.
I don't know, I guess 31,000 is a few.

o all the skeptics: Tell me why you don't think global warming is happening. What problem do you have with all the evidence that's been presented. Don't say, "Oh, well a lot of scientists deny it." Well if you're a scientist, who can back your opinion up, then fine. But if you don't really know the science, then you're denying it on a personal level, just to be stubborn.
So let me get this straight, you're telling me, that if I say "Oh, well a lot of scientists deny it." my opinion isn't valid, and yet this entire time all you, and a collection of others HAVE been saying, is "Oh, well a lot of scientists say its happening." Give me a break man. If Global warming is happening, and its a threat to mankind, and its being worsened by mankind, lets do something about it! Of course! But what Me and Thrawn are trying to say is that science hasn't definitively come to the conclusion that it is. Thats it!
Posted: Sat, 25th Apr 2009, 12:39am

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Sollthar

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I guess I can only state that ignorance is bliss and move out of the conversation, since it's not doing any good throwing funny links to websites claiming funny things.

Guess we'll have to find out and see and someone will go "I told you so."...
And in all sincerity, I hope it'll be Thrawn and ssj john who are right. I'd much prefer their version.
Posted: Sat, 25th Apr 2009, 2:08am

Post 46 of 113

Terminal Velocity

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I don't know whether to ask everyone to calm down, or present my own opinion (not that anyone cares), or both.

I'm going to go for the former. There are other places this can be discussed. But please, not here. I don't want to see this forum degenerate into an argument: however interesting everyone's opinion may be.
Posted: Sat, 25th Apr 2009, 8:05am

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Atom

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Look at Little Miss New-User-Thinks-He's-A Moderator over here...
Posted: Sat, 25th Apr 2009, 10:34am

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No Respite Productions

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ssj john wrote:

wow. You've completely lost any credibility with me No respite. You personify to me everything that is contradictory about left thinkers. I hardly feel like giving time to respond to you. But...I digress.
I'll live I'm sure.

Sadly I'm not strictly a left thinker so be careful about making assumptions about people, especially when you know nothing about the person themselves. I sit firmly on the fence with most things in life as there are always valid arguments for and against something. This is one of those subjects where I do firmly believe that some people are wrong. No left/right about it


Your sources are by no means give an even handed look at global warming...Don't try to pretend they do. Your mind is settled on the science, rather than the science being settled. There's no point in debating this any further, because you'll ignore anything that contradicts your apparent "set in stone" view of the climate change...
Once again, I'll trust a well recognised collection of global scientists. Because they are experts in their field. They have taken data from various sources from across the globe and have studied and analysed it and found that we do contribute and have a negative influence over the environment that will lead to negative climate change.

There is some argument over the matter, but these scientists are in the minority... or not subject matter experts who are looking at every angle of the problem.


You completely miss the point of Thrawn even linking that for you...I'm embarrassed I have to do this, but, I'm feeling generous right now so let me outline this for you in a very simple two step process.

Step 1: you posted a link to a wiki page about a scientific consensus (Completely oblivious to the fact that nobody was disputing that) Claiming by and large scientists agree that global warming is happening.

Step 2: Thrawn than responded with a link that provided the signatures of a considerable amount of scientists that are skeptical.
How well controlled is that list? Have those names really been checked for accuracy? If I wanted to I could easily whack a Phd to my name. If I wanted to I could easily acquire a list of names with letters at the end of them. Are you so naive that you believe everything you read on the web? That you believe any website going just because it's a website.

I actually posted that website because, if you'd read it, you'll see that it's not just agreeing that "climate change is happening... yup!" It's actually studying whether man is responsible for it, and they have found that yes we are.


Secondly, this petition has nothing to do with disproving the "effects of global warming." Its purpose is to illustrate exactly what Thrawn intended it too, and that is that the science on Global warming is not settled. Understanding the simple concept that Global warming is happening does not make you an "intellectual." Especially you, because it seems you didn't acquire that knowledge through any kind of effort or thought.

Lastly, to destroy any hint of open-mindedness you may have once had, you say this: Any scientist who disagrees with man's impact on global warming is in the extreme minority and probably employed by an oil company.
My bad on this one, that was not a very good point and I take it back. It is true that there are scientists who question the science and that is a good thing (the whole point of being a scientist). But when the evidence and argument is so overwhelming against the one side and yet they continue to argue for whatever reason then you do have to call people out on it.

The primary use of that website seems to argue against signing up to the Kyoto agreements, something America got a lot of flak over because the rest of the world had recognised the problem and indentified a possible solution.

The U.N's report on global warming is contributed by 600 scientists, this petition has 31,000....Tell me who's in the minority? Have you researched any of the credentials of those scientist you believe? I mean before I posted this?
Did you? Did you research all 31,000 names on that list? Did you see certain areas of the FAQ where scientists had been found to add their names twice? Do you think that those same people would not simply make up false names if they felt so inclined?

Roughly 10,000 of those names are listed as have qualification in general engineering... seriously? Does that not set off a warning bell to you?

Do you think a global organisation like the UN would recognise any old scientist? Or choose leaders in their field and the best suited experts to provide a balanced viewpoint (which is what the IPCC was set up to do).


Also, tell me this. If the link to the petition was such a weak attempt to defend thee opposing view, why then did you have a melt down about it? I mean, you made a pretty big scene about something you tried to pass off as trivial and illegitimate.
Again, could have been better written I agree. Part of my job when teaching people to write reports is to take information and facts from only credible and well identified sources... and this was my beef with the website. It is not a peer reviewed organisation that has gained international recognition. It is a very basic website which has some names listed. Maybe a large number of those people are genuine scientists but once again, that does not necessarily mean they are well versed on the subject... general engineers and people involved in medicine and metallurgy.

Actually I know three pharmacists who all have PhDs in medicine. Do you think they should add their names to that list too? Despite not knowing the first thing about the science behind man's impact on the global environment?

I'll leave it at that and like Sollthar, I'll duck out of this one before it gets nasty.

Don't get me wrong I love a good debate at times and perhaps I should have countered Thrawn's arguments with a bit more decorum and not a snide and snotty attitude. I apologise for that and will try not to come across as being quite so up my own arse next time.

What I won't apologise for is disagreeing about the science not being settled. Because it is. The experts have done research dating way back into the very early 90s and have formally agreed, along with a great deal of the world's leaders... exactly what the problem is, and what needs to be done to at least slow the change down. If that is even possible.

I wish it wasn't the case. But it is sad
Posted: Sat, 25th Apr 2009, 1:43pm

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Rockfilmers

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I knew this topic was going to blow up sad

Come on guys, this is a film making community and the only thing that is going on here is criticism of everyone's political and environmental opinions. It's pretty stupid. Who cares what some else opinion is? It turned from "Happy Earth Day" to "you are stupid because you don't believe what I do." To bad.
Posted: Sat, 25th Apr 2009, 4:08pm

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Terminal Velocity

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Atom wrote:

Look at Little Miss New-User-Thinks-He's-A Moderator over here...
So basically, since you have been here longer than I have, you're smarter. FXperience and forum experience adds to your IQ, is that it? I'm not allowed to try to contribute because I am newer than you? I had some respect for you before.

Rockfilmers wrote:

I knew this topic was going to blow up.

Come on guys, this is a film making community and the only thing that is going on here is criticism of everyone's political and environmental opinions. It's pretty stupid. Who cares what some else opinion is? It turned from "Happy Earth Day" to "you are stupid because you don't believe what I do." Too bad.
I agree wholeheartedly.
Posted: Sat, 25th Apr 2009, 5:17pm

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jawajohnny

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So... did anyone go see this?
Posted: Sat, 25th Apr 2009, 6:24pm

Post 52 of 113

Terminal Velocity

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jawajohnny wrote:

So... did anyone go see this?
Nope.
Posted: Sat, 25th Apr 2009, 7:32pm

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Evman

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I think healthy debate is always welcomed on these forums, and we haven't hit any of the subjects against the rules.

The only problem is that to have a healthy debate there must be at least two sides to the given issue. This is not the case here. Or at least it shouldn't be. The survival of our planet should be something that concerns everyone, not just some. It's our home. It's the only one we've got. I'll point you to Carl Sagan's pale blue dot speech (I know Al Gore uses it in his movie, but it's true). Everything that's ever happened in human history... EVER... happened on this little tiny rock floating through space. EVERYTHING. It's so fragile, and we don't take any care of it whatsoever.

And people say we don't need to invest in going to Mars... at the rate that we're f**cking up our own planet, we'll need Mars very very soon as a lifeboat.
Posted: Sat, 25th Apr 2009, 9:17pm

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Atom

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Richard III wrote:

Atom wrote:

Look at Little Miss New-User-Thinks-He's-A Moderator over here...
So basically, since you have been here longer than I have, you're smarter. FXperience and forum experience adds to your IQ, is that it? I'm not allowed to try to contribute because I am newer than you? I had some respect for you before.
Well, yes, I'd gander that I'm smarter than you. But that isn't because of how long I've been here. There should be something rather obvious to the fact that users who are more experienced, who have been here longer, know better how things run and when they turn in the wrong direction. From the looks of it, you're overreacting and treating things like you're running this forum and what you say goes.

Now, I'm in no way claiming I'm a moderator, nor that I run this place (although.....come on.....do you know who I am? wink)- but I generally know, from my 5 years regularly here how things go; so it's irritating to see new kids on the block walk around like they own the place. Remember, you've been here all of 2 weeks. You're just lucky I didn't make a case to get on you about it more, the way many know I used to tend to do.

All this, of course, also discounting that I was merely making a joke. Thank you for changing your name, I guarantee you people will remember you much easier and be able to respond to you clearer now. Just don't make a habit of changing your name; no one will be able to tell who you are. wink
Posted: Sun, 26th Apr 2009, 4:27am

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D3L3T10N

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Atom wrote:

From the looks of it, you're overreacting and treating things like you're running this forum and what you say goes.
You're right, he's the one doing that.
Posted: Sun, 26th Apr 2009, 4:39am

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Thrawn

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Guys, keep in mind that Atom has been an active user for a long amount of time (longer than most of us posting here) and that in itself deserves a little bit of respect. Also, I'd have to agree about how annoying it is when new people come in here and act as if they're a moderator or something. Don't get me wrong, Richard, making sure that discussions doesn't turn into an arguement is a good, but there's a way to go about doing that without seeming.. Well, like you own the place.

ssj john basicly summed up my opinions on global warming/earth day pretty well, (thanks for that ssj) so I'll leave it at that.
Posted: Sun, 26th Apr 2009, 5:12am

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Coureur de Bois

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Evman: Well put. Props for the Sagan reference, wish he was still around to give an opinion on our current situation.

Atom: In all fairness, you are coming off as quite the pompous dick... I would know as I can be one too from time to time. Be that as it may, I think a better way for you to prove yourself as veteran member would be to set a good example for newer members .

Just sayin'.

Edit: My apologies for getting this topic even further off track.
Posted: Sun, 26th Apr 2009, 8:40am

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Atom

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Where've you been, Gorion? I am a pompous dick. But I've also seen enough, contributed enough, and been here long enough to afford to be one. I don't mean to be one, I'm not purposefully one; but that's what people seem to deem it as. Oh, well. I can afford it.

I'm not a new user lookin' to make nice with the community.

No, the community knows who I am, and those that heed my advice take advantage of my help. Those that don't, miss out entirely. I'm the lifeblood of this place. I know it, and all of you guys know it; and it kills you all to realize it. You see, I'm not stuck in here with all of you; you're all stuck in here with me.
Posted: Sun, 26th Apr 2009, 8:54am

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ssj john

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No Respite Productions wrote:

I sit firmly on the fence with most things in life as there are always valid arguments for and against something.
You say that like its a good thing...I truly feel sorry for you if you sit firmly on the fence with most things in life. Either you BSing me, and are trying to appear centrist, or you are a tragically confused person...Either way, you lose credibility.


Once again, I'll trust a well recognized collection of global scientists. Because they are experts in their field. They have taken data from various sources from across the globe and have studied and analyzed it and found that we do contribute and have a negative influence over the environment that will lead to negative climate change.
Great, but remember, I was never suggesting that you can't believe in those scientist or that the science is settled. You can believe whatever you want.
How well controlled is that list? Have those names really been checked for accuracy?
You tell me? Why don't you google some of those names eh? Oh and by the way...it says American Scientists, but they aren't all American, they just research in the U.S.
If I wanted to I could easily whack a Phd to my name. If I wanted to I could easily acquire a list of names with letters at the end of them. Are you so naive that you believe everything you read on the web? That you believe any website going just because it's a website.
Freak man, listen if you are skeptical about the names that's completely understandable, but that's why you look FURTHER into things. Why don't you put forth as much effort into researching this as you apparently did when researching the scientist who do agree with the consensus.

This is why I think you're mind may be the thing that is settled rather than the science. You tell me that this site "could" be phony, but yet you don't do anything for yourself to find out. If it is, find out, don't just assume. It makes you look like you're afraid you might find evidence against you're theory, and that makes you look like an idiot. Just sayin'.

I actually posted that website because, if you'd read it, you'll see that it's not just agreeing that "climate change is happening... yup!" It's actually studying whether man is responsible for it, and they have found that yes we are.
Yup, got that. Which is also why there are sides to this argument, many actually. Is global warming happening? Is it affected by man? If it is, is it a threat to Man? Can we even stop it?...to name a few.



My bad on this one, that was not a very good point and I take it back. It is true that there are scientists who question the science and that is a good thing (the whole point of being a scientist). But when the evidence and argument is so overwhelming against the one side and yet they continue to argue for whatever reason then you do have to call people out on it.
Do you even realize how contradictory you sound?
Did you? Did you research all 31,000 names on that list?
Nope, and I clearly never insisted that I did. But I have googled a few names. So...meh.
Did you see certain areas of the FAQ where scientists had been found to add their names twice? Do you think that those same people would not simply make up false names if they felt so inclined?
You know, I didn't see that, but its in the FAQ so obviously its not something they are trying to hide. But also realize, nobody is suggesting that this website is proof that global warming exists or isn't affected by man...

Roughly 10,000 of those names are listed as have qualification in general engineering... seriously? Does that not set off a warning bell to you?
...Nope, they're still scientist which means they have a firm understanding of basic science and the scientific method. The fact that they clearly point out that these are not all environmental scientists is why it doesn't worry me. Honestly, these are very smart people who have looked at the evidence, (albeit, not nearly as in-depth as the scientists in the field.) and have determined based on there knowledge that its not as big a deal as you are making it out to be.

Do you think a global organisation like the UN would recognise any old scientist?
Quite honestly? I think the U.N. is going to recognize any scientists that agree with their agenda...and yes, the U.N. definitely has an agenda.

Also, tell me this. If the link to the petition was such a weak attempt to defend thee opposing view, why then did you have a melt down about it? I mean, you made a pretty big scene about something you tried to pass off as trivial and illegitimate.
Actually I know three pharmacists who all have PhDs in medicine. Do you think they should add their names to that list too? Despite not knowing the first thing about the science behind man's impact on the global environment?
Well see, I'd disagree here. I don't think they wouldn't know the "first" thing about global warming, but given the evidence, I'd trust that they'd understand the science a lot better than you would. Don't twist this into me suggesting that their opinions would be just as valid as those who are in the field, no, but certainly more credible then you or me.

What I won't apologise for is disagreeing about the science not being settled.
You keep getting mistaken, nobody asked you too apologize for anything. Nobody even directly told you, that you were wrong until after you had already done so. I posted ONE opposing view point and I got rated down 3...Then a reaction followed that seemed like my opposing view point was some kind of threat to your survival, and anybody that shared it was the downfall of mankind. Treating me like someone who still thinks the earth is flat or denies the Holocaust ever happened.

Those are the reactions that cause me to scoff whenever a liberal tries to convince me, or anyone, that they are open-minded...
Posted: Sun, 26th Apr 2009, 8:57am

Post 60 of 113

Sollthar

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Dudes...

Atom is smarter then all of us, has been here for longer then the fxhome team itself, contributes the best movies ever made, knows more then everyone else about anything you can think of so it's your loss not listening to him and should he insult you, it was only a joke. And that is a fact, not an opinion. wink

And now, the one guy who actually is a moderator urges you to keep the conversation calm and friendly or he'll use his magic power on the thread.
Posted: Sun, 26th Apr 2009, 9:04am

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Evman

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Atom wrote:

Where've you been, Gorion? I am a pompous dick. But I've also seen enough, contributed enough, and been here long enough to afford to be one. I don't mean to be one, I'm not purposefully one; but that's what people seem to deem it as. Oh, well. I can afford it.

I'm not a new user lookin' to make nice with the community.

No, the community knows who I am, and those that heed my advice take advantage of my help. Those that don't, miss out entirely. I'm the lifeblood of this place. I know it, and all of you guys know it; and it kills you all to realize it. You see, I'm not stuck in here with all of you; you're all stuck in here with me.
And this, ladies and gents, is what you get when you come back from quite a rowdy college night, and decide to post on the FXHome forums...

At least I hope that's what it is. I'd be willing to forgive a drunken mistake - but if that's actually what you think Atom, then wow... I've been here just as long as you have - and there are plenty of people that have been here longer than both of us. That's no attitude to have. At all.
Posted: Sun, 26th Apr 2009, 9:07am

Post 62 of 113

ssj john

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Ha, Sollthar +1!...If I could.

But allow me to nudge this back on topic. Earth day I think shouldn't be about scaring us with Global Warming into submitting to the environmental iron curtain.

Earth day should just be about taking care of the earth, it should serve a purpose like that of holidays like Christmas, or hanukkah. Not to further any kind of political agenda but too serve as a friendly reminder to pick up after yourself and/or to not litter.

I have no problem with that.
and there are plenty of people that have been here longer than both of us.
ME! Nov 3 2003 baby! But I am by no means suggesting that I've contributed anywhere near as much as either of you to this forum.
Posted: Sun, 26th Apr 2009, 9:37am

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Atom

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Sober as a skunk. You post as frequently, for as long, as and much as me- and then we'll talk, old friend.

Well, okay, maybe not sober as a skunk.......but close. wink

The one moderator who clearly doesn't do a terribly great job- who runs by obvious double-standards and has his arse kissed blatantly and shamelessy- who offers questionable views and uneven authority- should know not to talk. And just so you know I'm insulting you- this isn't and won't be a 'joke'. Once I have people afraid to say a negative word about my so-so superhero movie and suck my dick about everything else I make, maybe then I'll be free of persecution for my shittty movies and attitude.

Welcome to Sollthar's FXhome everyone. Disagree with him and perish in a sea of blanketed conspiracy and condescension; with everyone else drinking the kool aid. I'm not here just to spout my tenure or throw out cocky little quips- I'm here because I care about the community and the users I've seen progress in it.

Sollthar's never seen that. Some others don't. This is where the fire's lit- I've no doubt it'll be put out and swept under the rug with countless newbies throwing minus ones my way for posts that will be deleted only after Solly's let them accrue, and plus ones removed on the basis of bias. But that's never stopped me before, now, has it? biggrin
Posted: Sun, 26th Apr 2009, 9:50am

Post 64 of 113

Sollthar

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Hehehehehe. There, see? Isn't he cute? biggrin
Posted: Sun, 26th Apr 2009, 10:36am

Post 65 of 113

ben3308

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Atom wrote:

Disagree with him and perish in a sea of blanketed conspiracy and condescension; with everyone else drinking the kool aid.
You're a regular body-snatchers era Donald Sutherland.

___________________________________________________

No, but really, let's establish some absolutes that may help good sir Richard III:

- Being 'better' at using the forums is entirely subjective, but I would say that objectively it says something about you if you're a few weeks on here versus many years. Likewise, so does post count and post ratings, usually.

- Being 'better' at using forums doesn't mean you're any smarter than anyone else. Nor does it mean someone else is asserting their own smarts (unless they, possibly as unapt as can be, actually say they're smarter). It's like any trade, skill, or realm of society: just something you learn how to participate in. A homeless Parisian can speak French and I can't, that doesn't except the fact that I could be a scholar in the English language, etc. Likewise, trade workers like mechanics know the ins-and-outs of cars better than any college student I know of, that doesn't make them smarter.

- Some moderators are known to have biases, inclinations, preclivities, and any number of tendencies. Such is human cohabitation on any level - even in forums. Marco openly and admittedly doesn't care for Atom's 'style' of posting, and is apt to delete or censor a lot of what he says. It's not really fair on all accounts, but that's the situation.

- There is running tension between religious and non-religious parts of FXhome, and I'm certain there always will be; which is why that kind of discussion matter is (usually) off topic. Unfortunately, we have religious and socioeconomic lifestyles that blend into our political thoughts and ideologies, and that makes our opinions on issues like global warming, etc very scattered and very opinionated. Such is life. Which leads me to....

For the uninitiated, here's the big ones:

- ssjohn and Thrawn will always lean towards conservative sentiments. Most of the European crowd will always be atheist. Bryan M. Block will always lament new movies. Atom will always be a pain in the ass to new users. Atom will always hype movies. Sollthar will always be lauded on some level. Kid will always argue about anything. Aculag will always be sarcastic. ben3308 will always be awesome at filmmaking. Evman, Serpent, Atom and myself will always have this sort of kinship based on age that causes us to enter each others arguments. This has been going on for a while.

And lastly, Atom will always be my brother and someone who I have to live with on a personal basis. If you don't like him, imagine living with him for 19+ years of your life.

I know this is tangential, but what's really the point of an already off-base global warming argument, anyway? biggrin
Posted: Sun, 26th Apr 2009, 3:09pm

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Sollthar

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Heh, good post. I can already see the fxhome store sell the first book: "The FXhome community in a nutshell", by Ben Adams. I'd buy it.
Posted: Sun, 26th Apr 2009, 4:35pm

Post 67 of 113

Pooky

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Ooh, do me do me!
Posted: Sun, 26th Apr 2009, 4:36pm

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Klut

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jawajohnny wrote:

So... did anyone go see this?
No, but I have the complete Plannet Earth series on Blu-ray. razz
Posted: Sun, 26th Apr 2009, 7:48pm

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Terminal Velocity

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ssjohn wrote:

Is global warming happening?
Not sure on that one, but I'm leaning towards no.

ssjohn wrote:

Is it affected by man?


Not enough to make a difference. You think about the huge earth and the alleged global effects of it, and you realize that what man is doing isn't really all that much. For example, a lone volcano pumps out 200 million tons of chlorine in a single eruption, while man, during the peak of CFC production, released only about 750,000 tons. eek Not much, is it? Well, I would say that more or less busts the ozone hole controversy. How is global warming any different?

ssjohn wrote:

If it is, is it a threat to Man?


Man has been surviving worldwide floods, A-bombs, volcanoes, world wars, plague, and wrathful Greek gods( wink ) for millennia. I doubt it could wipe out the entire human race. We can probably adapt.

ssjohn wrote:

Can we even stop it?...
Let's turn off all the lights and all electronic devices. Let's return to the Dark Ages, when not even gunpowder wasn't discovered yet. But other than that, I doubt that at the moment we can do much to help. Not until clean energy sources become more widespread.
Posted: Sun, 26th Apr 2009, 8:12pm

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Atom

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Pooky wrote:

Ooh, do me do me!
Yours is rather easy, isn't it? Pooky will always be the wordly Canadian who thinks he knows America. wink Klut will always have the running 'nemesis' joke relationship with Atom, too. Ever since early 2004.
Posted: Sun, 26th Apr 2009, 8:21pm

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Sollthar

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Is global warming happening?
Not sure on that one, but I'm leaning towards no.
Just because I'm honestly interested... Can anyone point me to a serious (as in, not a random website that just says so without backing it's sources, but an internationally respected science organisation, for example?) and up to date source that actually says global warming isn't happening?
Posted: Sun, 26th Apr 2009, 8:38pm

Post 72 of 113

Terminal Velocity

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Sollthar wrote:

Is global warming happening?
Not sure on that one, but I'm leaning towards no.
Just because I'm honestly interested... Can anyone point me to a serious (as in, not a random website that just says so without backing it's sources, but an internationally respected science organisation, for example?) and up to date source that actually says global warming isn't happening?
Actually, no. But while I do not claim a degree in science, it doesn't make sense to me. I think that if global warming is happening, I doubt it will affect us for a very, very long while. And as I said before:

Richard III wrote:

Man has been surviving worldwide floods, A-bombs, volcanoes, world wars, plague, and wrathful Greek gods( ) for millennia. I doubt it could wipe out the entire human race. We can probably adapt.
Posted: Sun, 26th Apr 2009, 8:51pm

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Atom

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We can 'probably adapt'. I remember some crazy creatures haughtily laughing in the face of Armageddon and saying the same thing.

They were the Dinosaurs.
Posted: Sun, 26th Apr 2009, 8:54pm

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Sollthar

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I do not claim a degree in science, it doesn't make sense to me
Surely, you must see that thats a very odd argument your making - if I understand you correctly.

You're basically saying: "I know little to nothing about the science involved, can't back my opinion up in any way but I just can't make sense of it, despite the fact I don't have the necessary knowledge and skills to make sense of it in the first place."

I think that if global warming is happening, I doubt it will affect us for a very, very long while.
My question is, what do you base that doubt on? What facts? Where did you get them from? Or is it just your intuition? Your stomach saying "Naahhh..." and you just happen to believe anything your stomach claims?

I'd honestly be interested.
Posted: Sun, 26th Apr 2009, 8:58pm

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Terminal Velocity

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Atom wrote:

We can 'probably adapt'. I remember some crazy creatures haughtily laughing in the face of Armageddon and saying the same thing.

They were the Dinosaurs.
But the difference between us and the dinosaurs is rather large. They were big and scary, but they weren't smart. And it's not really proven how dinosaurs died out. But man being significantly smarter has dealt with other issues before. At least, if global warming is happening, we predicted it. Dinosaurs can't boast that. And if we can predict it, we're one step closer to adapting.
Posted: Sun, 26th Apr 2009, 8:58pm

Post 76 of 113

ssj john

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Sollthar wrote:

Just because I'm honestly interested... Can anyone point me to a serious (as in, not a random website that just says so without backing it's sources, but an internationally respected science organisation, for example?) and up to date source that actually says global warming isn't happening?
Sigh....Sollthar I expected more from you. Truly.

Here is a in-depth article about mans affect on Global warming. I can't at the moment find you an Global organization that is claiming Global Warming isn't happening, and I honestly don't know if I will be able too. If that's what it takes for you to be convinced then obviously you may never be convinced, but remember, (and being a moderator I expect you've read everything thus far, so I feel like a broken record here) but the debate isn't necessarily about whether its happening or not.

Atom wrote:

The one moderator who clearly doesn't do a terribly great job- who runs by obvious double-standards and has his arse kissed blatantly and shamelessy- who offers questionable views and uneven authority- should know not to talk. And just so you know I'm insulting you- this isn't and won't be a 'joke'. Once I have people afraid to say a negative word about my so-so superhero movie and suck my dick about everything else I make, maybe then I'll be free of persecution for my shittty movies and attitude.
I usually don't get into things like this, because well, I really don't believe things are going to change. But while I mostly disagree with Atom's harshness, he does bring up a point here. Moderation here is definitely one sided. I can't say that I would do any better if I were a moderator, but I honestly think that I'd be a lot more even minded towards both sides...Probably a little too much...then most of the moderators here.

Even though me and Atom disagree on most political ideals, we are share the sentiment that we aren't here to give opinions that please the moderators or anyone else for that matter. I don't complain about the rating system because I know its frequently abused. Don't try to pretend like it isn't, it is and you know it, all of you. I've seen Tarn say things that were outrageously offensive, even though I may have agreed with him! and then get rated +1.
Posted: Sun, 26th Apr 2009, 9:04pm

Post 77 of 113

jawajohnny

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Ben3308 wrote:

- ssjohn and Thrawn will always lean towards conservative sentiments. Most of the European crowd will always be atheist. Bryan M. Block will always lament new movies. Atom will always be a pain in the ass to new users. Atom will always hype movies. Sollthar will always be lauded on some level. Kid will always argue about anything. Aculag will always be sarcastic. ben3308 will always be awesome at filmmaking. Evman, Serpent, Atom and myself will always have this sort of kinship based on age that causes us to enter each others arguments. This has been going on for a while.
Dead on. Could you do me? smile

Sollthar wrote:

Just because I'm honestly interested... Can anyone point me to a serious (as in, not a random website that just says so without backing it's sources, but an internationally respected science organisation, for example?) and up to date source that actually says global warming isn't happening?
Yeah, I'd like to see one too. There are plenty of sites that say global warming is happening though.

http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/

http://www.climatecrisis.net/thescience/

Richard III wrote:

Man has been surviving worldwide floods, A-bombs, volcanoes, world wars, plague, and wrathful Greek gods( ) for millennia. I doubt it could wipe out the entire human race. We can probably adapt.
How are we going to adapt when we're all dead? Seriously, don't tell us your opinion when it's just pure speculation that isn't backed by any science. Look at some evidence, and then tell me you don't think global warming is happening, or that it's not going to affect us. Again, I'll post this: http://www.climatecrisis.net/thescience/

Richard III wrote:

But the difference between us and the dinosaurs is rather large. They were big and scary, but they weren't smart. And it's not really proven how dinosaurs died out. But man being significantly smarter has dealt with other issues before. At least, if global warming is happening, we predicted it. Dinosaurs can't boast that. And if we can predict it, we're one step closer to adapting.
We can't adapt physically just because we're mentally smart. There is absolutely no chance we're going to adapt. And isn't it widely accepted that an asteroid killed all the dinosaurs? Look at the facts please, before you jump to your own wild conclusions.
Posted: Sun, 26th Apr 2009, 9:29pm

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Sollthar

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ssj john wrote:

Sollthar I expected more from you. Truly.
What would that be you expected of me? Not sure how I'm to understand that line really.

ssj john wrote:

Here is a in-depth article about mans affect on Global warming.
Oh, same as many scientists, I have my doubts concerning how much the human race is responsible for the global warming phenomenon or able to stop it, but that wasn't my point. Richard here wrote he doesn't believe that global warming (the phenomenon describing a noticeable raise in temperatures over the last decades) is happening at all. And that I would have liked to get a source of, since I'm entirely unfamiliar with that claim. My post was, in fact, not directed at you.

Thanks for the article though, I'll give it a read!

ssj john wrote:

I can't at the moment find you an Global organization that is claiming Global Warming isn't happening, and I honestly don't know if I will be able too. If that's what it takes for you to be convinced then obviously you may never be convinced
Well, sorry, but in this day and age, a lot of media are full of crap and false information. There's almost nothing out there I couldn't find a website claiming the opposite. Hence for me, the basics in trying to decide how to deal with information is to decide how credible the source of the information is. So yeah, a credible source is indeed what it takes to convince me. And that's exactly what it should take.
We're not debating a subject anyone of us has the necessary experience, knowledge or skills to make our own deductions or assumptions, no disrespect to anyone intended.

ssj john wrote:

(and being a moderator I expect you've read everything thus far, so I feel like a broken record here)
Sorry, I again don't quite understand what you're getting it. Of course I read what you write. I read everything that's been written so far. Is there some tension towards me there in the subtext I'm not aware of? Or maybe I'm getting it wrong...


as to the Moderating:

Moderators here are human beings. We're not machines, nor do we try to be. We have certain guidelines we follow by when moderating, but we also have our own instinct and human position when we chose wether to moderate something or not. And as different moderators are different people, they will mod differently.
Now obviously, not everyone will be pleased with our decisions, especially those who tend to be the ones moderated, understandably. That's unfortunate, but nothing more, really.
Personally, I try to be as fair as I can. Some will agree I am, some will laugh at that very line. I'm sure it is the same for you.

Neither you, nor atom, nor anyone else has to give opinions the moderators like. But what you do have to do however is to follow the guidelines set by the fxhome team and the moderators, whether you agree with them or not. That's what we're here for.
If you have a problem with any specific moderation that was done, you're welcome to contact a moderator you believe can or will sort it out and I guarantee you, they will have a look at it. You can even contact me if you believe I have done something wrong and I'll consider your point, so will everyone else if the mods. Maybe they will decide differently then you wished, then that's that. The decision power has been given to us and some people have a problem with that to begin with, that's life.

If the voting system is abused or not is a matter of perspective. I believe it to work quite accurately. If you wish an unjust rating removed, pm me and I'll have a look. I get pm's like that a lot and I do look at every single one of the requests. Sometimes I agree, sometimes I don't. That's up to me to decide.

edit: for example, I just decided to delete a post that was just made because it went into a forbidden subject and made little sense. The person has been notified by me per PM.
Posted: Sun, 26th Apr 2009, 9:43pm

Post 79 of 113

Terminal Velocity

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I would edit, but apparently I can't.

jawajohnny wrote:

We can't adapt physically just because we're mentally smart. . And isn't it widely accepted that an asteroid killed all the dinosaurs? Look at the facts please, before you jump to your own wild conclusions.
Is it proven, though? Could have been extinction or a massive fire. There's no proof.

jawajohnny wrote:

There is absolutely no chance we're going to adapt.
I would call this jumping to conclusions. Plus, the same thing was said about the horseless carriage, wasn't it? And flight. And probably going to the moon. None of these would sound remotely possible even two hundred years ago. And yet they're all old news now. If we can conquer flying through a vacuum, walking around in one, and flying through the sky in a heavier-than-air machine for hours on end, I'm sure it's possible that we could deal with what could happen.
Posted: Sun, 26th Apr 2009, 10:04pm

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Atom

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Heh. Optimism in human ingenuity is one thing; damn obtuseness is another.

Cataclysmic destruction of earth via uncontrollable, uncontainable factors isn't the same thing as the horseless carriage or flight. You can't reference innovation and equate it to prevention of destruction. That's completely incongruous.

So much so, it's laughable. Laughable, and once again, causes me embarrassment for you.
Posted: Sun, 26th Apr 2009, 10:15pm

Post 81 of 113

jawajohnny

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Exactly, Atom. The thing is, we're not going to adapt when disaster strikes, because when that happens, it will be too late. I mean, how are we going to adapt to an ice age? We're all going to freeze to death before we adapt to it. Or when the entire coast is underwater, are we going to grow gills before we all drown? I think not. And there's no "prevention of disaster" going on now. We could adapt now, by converting to clean energy, etc., but we're not.

I've got to agree with Atom here, in Richard III has almost no idea what he's talking about...

Atom wrote:

So much so, it's laughable. Laughable, and once again, causes me embarrassment for you.
Posted: Sun, 26th Apr 2009, 10:18pm

Post 82 of 113

Terminal Velocity

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I would hardly consider global warming "cataclysmic destruction of earth".

Atom wrote:

Cataclysmic destruction of earth via uncontrollable, uncontainable factors isn't the same thing as the horseless carriage or flight. You can't reference innovation and equate it to prevention of destruction. That's completely incongruous.
The concept is the same; that we do not know enough about science at this point to grasp the idea.

Atom wrote:

So much so, it's laughable. Laughable, and once again, causes me embarrassment for you.
Touched, I'm sure. But I'm not embarrassed for myself, so there's no need for you to be. Even though you aren't. Actually, I'm embarrassed that you seem reduced to abuse instead of calm, reasonable debate. If you're as smart and respectable a member as you and everyone else claim you are, I would assume you to be beyond that.

EDIT: Okay, I'm done arguing. I am utterly incapable of being involved in a reasonable debate.
Posted: Sun, 26th Apr 2009, 11:17pm

Post 83 of 113

Atom

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Heh, the fact that you act like you know everything that's going on and are right amuses me- mostly because you've only been here two weeks- which yes, brevity says something- accompanied by the fact that your interjections on the issue of global warming are ignorance and defense, rather than awareness and prevention.

I think you've mistaken me for someone else. I'm not your average, environmentally-fearmongering liberal, I'm not your outspoken European on American affairs, I'm not your Obama die-hard or PETA freak. No, I'm a fairly moderate, fairly politically even-sided, born-and-bred Texan. So before you throw your rolling eyes at me, know what I'm about.

You're the flavor of the month of '14-year-old comes out of nowhere, posts a shittload for three weeks, thinks they own the place, then fizzles out'. I was one of those. You know why I make an effort to condemn it? Because I hate myself for how I was wayback when.

And what's worse, you think I'm the daft one here. My boy, I've learned from this same argument year after year and the conclusion is always the same. It's not a barbarian measure of 'agree or die' with global warming/earth's destruction, it's a matter of 'you're just plain wrong, stop making an ass of yourself while you still can'.

I'd greatly suggest talking to Evman, a user that was once your age and was a fairly rigid conservative with similar views. We butted heads frequently. Now, we've both grown up; we both matured our thoughts- and wouldn't you believe it?

Evman is the most active proponent of global warming awareness/climatic change I've ever seen on these boards. Somewhere in his tenure here, and in life- as only age can grant- he must've had a 'eureka' moment. Him and I, we disagree on several things, but we've both acknowledged how eachother has changed over the years- for the better.

Maybe looking into him, the advent of your frequent and numerous posts could teach you a thing or two. Sorry Evman, I don't mean to single you out- but I think there's been a contrasting duality with us for a while- and on issues and topics like this it's intriguing to see how history repeats itself.
Posted: Sun, 26th Apr 2009, 11:43pm

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Paradox Pictures

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Well ,this went to 6 pages fast. eek
Posted: Mon, 27th Apr 2009, 1:41am

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Pooky

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Atom wrote:

Pooky wrote:

Ooh, do me do me!
Yours is rather easy, isn't it? Pooky will always be the wordly Canadian who thinks he knows America. wink
Hey come on now, that was cheap!

Anyway, I think that no matter what the debate is, the fact is that we will eventually run out of petrol. Prices will gradually get higher, and that will make people freak out and buy hybrid, then electric. We saw this in a small scale when the gas prices were way up before the economic crisis. And apparently, this will happen in the next 50 to 100 years, which is before global warming will supposedly get particularly bad.

In other words, no matter what you say, WE WILL HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO SWITCH TO ALTERNATIVE ENERGY. It's physically impossible not to considering gasoline is finite. So shut up smile
Posted: Mon, 27th Apr 2009, 1:50am

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Terminal Velocity

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Atom wrote:

Heh, the fact that you act like you know everything that's going on and are right amuses me- mostly because you've only been here two weeks- which yes, brevity says something- accompanied by the fact that your interjections on the issue of global warming are ignorance and defense, rather than awareness and prevention.

I think you've mistaken me for someone else. I'm not your average, environmentally-fearmongering liberal, I'm not your outspoken European on American affairs, I'm not your Obama die-hard or PETA freak. No, I'm a fairly moderate, fairly politically even-sided, born-and-bred Texan. So before you throw your rolling eyes at me, know what I'm about.

You're the flavor of the month of '14-year-old comes out of nowhere, posts a shittload for three weeks, thinks they own the place, then fizzles out'. I was one of those. You know why I make an effort to condemn it? Because I hate myself for how I was wayback when.

And what's worse, you think I'm the daft one here. My boy, I've learned from this same argument year after year and the conclusion is always the same. It's not a barbarian measure of 'agree or die' with global warming/earth's destruction, it's a matter of 'you're just plain wrong, stop making an ass of yourself while you still can'.

I'd greatly suggest talking to Evman, a user that was once your age and was a fairly rigid conservative with similar views. We butted heads frequently. Now, we've both grown up; we both matured our thoughts- and wouldn't you believe it?

Evman is the most active proponent of global warming awareness/climatic change I've ever seen on these boards. Somewhere in his tenure here, and in life- as only age can grant- he must've had a 'eureka' moment. Him and I, we disagree on several things, but we've both acknowledged how eachother has changed over the years- for the better.

Maybe looking into him, the advent of your frequent and numerous posts could teach you a thing or two. Sorry Evman, I don't mean to single you out- but I think there's been a contrasting duality with us for a while- and on issues and topics like this it's intriguing to see how history repeats itself.
Thank you for the advice. If you think I am a crapper now, you don't want to know me like I was not a month ago. I am still in the development stages of tactful posting and compromising. The one problem being that when I try to calm down arguments...guess what? On the one hand, you tell me to improve. On the other, when I try to contribute or help, you call me "little miss n00b". And while I realize it's a joke, it is extremely irritating and provokes flaming on my part. So which is it? You want me to improve, or you want me to be stifled at the development stages and quit because I can't say anything without hearing someone go "ooh look who thinks he's a mod"? I realize you are trying to help, but it is like two walls trying to push me in opposite directions until I get squashed.

EDIT: I know this is off-topic. Okay. Well, dwi because this topic is going to digress anyway. It already has.
Posted: Mon, 27th Apr 2009, 1:58am

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Rockfilmers

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HAPPY EARTH DAY EVERY ONE!!! wink
Posted: Mon, 27th Apr 2009, 3:44am

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Evman

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Atom - I've always been a fairly large proponent of Global Warming awareness/taking care of our planet, etc.

I'll say it again - it never has, nor should it ever be an issue of "sides". Just because I was once a staunch conservative, doesn't mean I didn't care for my home. It's the only one I've got. The only thing that's changed has been the intensity with which I've cared for it, given recent developments in the amount of data received, and the increasing importance of the issue.
Posted: Mon, 27th Apr 2009, 4:59am

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Thrawn

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Sollthar wrote:



My question is, what do you base that doubt on? What facts? Where did you get them from? Or is it just your intuition? Your stomach saying "Naahhh..." and you just happen to believe anything your stomach claims?

I'd honestly be interested.
The fact that over the whole 20th century, the world has only increased 1.3 degrees in overall temperature.. Sooooo yeah, that's what I'm basing my facts on. (I believe that was from the Climatic Research Unit in Great Britain)

EDIT: Not to say that some type of global warming isn't happening, but that it's much less dramatic than most would expect.
Posted: Mon, 27th Apr 2009, 5:23am

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Atom

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Point taken, Evman. I guess severity-of-concern/stress-on-issues has changed, and that's what I was trying to cite.

My point is harsh but just. I'm not in the wrong with my cautionary tale; that people like you and I- people who were once pretty similar in age and attitude to Richard III have changed over years of experience and maturity here and regretted some of the things they've said and ways they've acted.

Richard III wrote:

when I try to contribute or help, you call me "little miss n00b"
Not exactly. When you tried to act as an authority on a forum laden with senior members who know how things run, I'm amused. I didn't call you a n00b, I said you 'thought you were a moderator'.

A rather obvious and harmless joke. But don't worry because I seem to have been bombarded with minuses for it, anyway. Improve, yes. But be ready for my jokes.

Because, honestly, if little quips on my part keep you stifled from completing thoughts entirely; I think you've got bigger problems to worry about.

Last edited Mon, 27th Apr 2009, 5:32am; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Mon, 27th Apr 2009, 5:32am

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Evman

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Thrawn wrote:


The fact that over the whole 20th century, the world has only increased 1.3 degrees in overall temperature.. Sooooo yeah, that's what I'm basing my facts on. (I believe that was from the Climatic Research Unit in Great Britain)
This is why you actually do the research. 1.3 degrees doesn't seem like that much. But in overall temperature, that's huge. The ice at the poles exists because of a very precarious balance of temperature that has stabilized over the course of literally millions and billions of years. The slightest disruption (and yes, 1.3 degrees is very very large in geological terms), could tip this balance.

Ice is white, and reflects the sunlight that hits it back into space, as opposed to the open, dark blue ocean, which absorbs the sun's heat. Upset the temperature just a little bit with carbon emissions, etc and the ice melts. That means more open ocean, less ice. The entire planet now has more absorptive surface than reflective relative to the current balance. Which, for those not versed in simple logic, means that the Earth is now absorbing more heat than it is reflecting it. What does that do? It WARMS the planet up. And what do we already know about increase in temperature? It causes the SAME THING to happen. Over and over again.

It's an exponential increase. The classic snowball effect. 1.3 degrees over a century might not seem like a lot. But it'll be more. A lot more. Sooner than you'd think.

So yeah - maybe you should base your facts on something you understand more intimately. Instead of your version of common sense.

And this misconception, among others, is why people think that this is all no big deal. They're wrong.
Posted: Mon, 27th Apr 2009, 6:31am

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Thrawn

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Excuse me if I'm wrong Evman, but I believe that over the past "millions and billions" of years, that temperature has changed much more dramaticly than 1.3 degrees over a century. Thus, I think the planet can take a little more than a small climate change, wouldn't you agree? I'm sure that the earth's been through worse heating periods than now. Also, this all comes back to the debate as to whether carbon emissions truly has an effect on the earth's temperature.
Posted: Mon, 27th Apr 2009, 7:30am

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Evman

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Thrawn wrote:

Excuse me if I'm wrong Evman, but I believe that over the past "millions and billions" of years, that temperature has changed much more dramaticly than 1.3 degrees over a century. Thus, I think the planet can take a little more than a small climate change, wouldn't you agree? I'm sure that the earth's been through worse heating periods than now. Also, this all comes back to the debate as to whether carbon emissions truly has an effect on the earth's temperature.
Yeah, of course it has changed. In the time that man has been on Earth, it has remained relatively constant. We are talking changes on courses of yes, millions and billions of years. The fact that all of this is happening within a century is unbelievable. Of course, a century seems like a long time to us pathetic humans, but it's less than a blink of an eye when it comes to the timescales we're talking about in geology. 100 years is RIDICULOUSLY quick for any sort of natural climate change. When all of a sudden we're talking in centuries instead of millennia, we have a problem, and are dealing with something, well, unnatural.

Also, 1.3 degrees in a hundred years seems like nothing, but as I stated before, we're talking about exponential growth here.

1 becomes 2 becomes 4 becomes 8 becomes 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, 512, 1024. See how fast we broke a thousand times the original number?

Think of 1.3 degrees over a century as the 1 becomes 2 part, and you'll get what I'm talking about. What about in another hundred years, when the temperature has gone up 4 degrees, and the extra melted ice has raised the sea level over coastal regions?

And as to the debate over whether or not carbon emissions effect the atmosphere - there is no debate. Carbon Dioxide buildup in the atmosphere is a known cause of the greenhouse effect, which is what we are experiencing right now.

The planet Venus is living proof of this effect. It's atmosphere is riddled with an excess of CO2, and consequently is an unbelievably hot furnace, with air as thick as soup, and surface pressures that would crush us without protection. All because the CO2 allows the heat from the Sun in, but not out, causing heat buildup. The same heat buildup that we are currently experiencing the early stages of. While Venus' CO2 comes from Volcanic eruptions, etc on its surface, the principle remains the same.

Just because the amount of CO2 generated by humans doesn't compare to the amount generated naturally, that doesn't mean that it doesn't have an effect. It's not natural - and therefore it upsets the natural equilibrium. The volcanoes on Earth that someone mentioned as being more destructive than humans are part of the equation already. They're already accounted for by Mother Nature. Our power plants, cars, and factories are not. And THAT'S why our impact is significant. It's just a catalyst for grander scale change in time.


On a slightly unrelated note, I remember seeing an interview with an elderly astronaut describing how now he can see when he's in orbit how all the major cities all have their own distinct atmospheres. And before he couldn't. The fact that our destruction is actually VISIBLE, and we choose to ignore it or pass it off as insignificant is simply disgusting.


I know that this is a cheesy quote, and doesn't completely relate, and I know you've all heard it before, but I was reminded of it just now. I thought I'd post it.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing"

Of course it paints in broad strokes, but it's entirely true. In this case the "evil" is less defined. And so are "good men". But I'll let you interpret it how you will.
Posted: Mon, 27th Apr 2009, 8:19am

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Atom

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A tad too fear-mongering for my tastes, but Evman's got the paramount point here. Doing nothing over something and something over nothing are two approaches with vastly, consequentially different conclusions. Pascal's Wager.

I've argued it to Evman over religion several times; it appears even more obvious a route to the obtuse in this discussion.
Posted: Mon, 27th Apr 2009, 8:24am

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Evman

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Atom wrote:

A tad too fear-mongering for my tastes, but Evman's got the paramount point here. Doing nothing over something and something over nothing are two approaches with vastly, consequentially different conclusions. Pascal's Wager.

I've argued it to Evman over religion several times; it appears even more obvious a route to the obtuse in this discussion.
Well it's obvious nothing short of fear-mongering is going to get through here... So yeah.

And Atom, seriously. I asked you once. Leave Pascals Wager out of this. It's entirely unrelated, uncalled for, and insulting. It's a completely separate issue, with completely separate rules. I thought you would have stopped after I asked you once. I guess I was wrong.
Posted: Mon, 27th Apr 2009, 8:52am

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Atom

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That's a bit of a stretch, don't you think? Humanity isn't that dense- and I think you're in the majority on the issue these days, not the minority.

And I didn't mean to belabor the point of Pascal's Wager- although I think you're being a bit dramatic calling it insulting- had I noticed you had asked me beforehand I would've left it be. Just so it's straight: I'm not meaning to underhandedly criticize you on the basis of atheism. I'm trying to use it as a case of clear logic for global warming, not religion. Surely that's clear- as is the logic in regards to the issue at-hand, no? Not trying to drag my feet in the mud and be a douche- but yeeaah.
Posted: Mon, 27th Apr 2009, 9:16am

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ben3308

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Yeah, I'd say that Pascalian logic fits really, quite perfectly into this argument:

Even if you think that global warming might not be bad, look at the consequences: if you're right, money from the government and action by the people is wasted. If you're wrong, our planet sees the end of its life. In very ultimate terms, we have almost nothing to lose (in the grand scheme of things) and almost everything to gain.
Posted: Mon, 27th Apr 2009, 10:53am

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Sollthar

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Actually, the argument does indeed make sense in this case - other then religion. But that's something to be left out of the forums.

Investing in save, renewable energy has little do no downsides and should be enforced, no matter how much of a threat you consider the global warming phenomenon to be.

As for the human ability to adapt, I myself have rather large confidence in our ability to defy a lot of what nature could throw at us. I'd say it's very possible that we actually could adapt to a heavy change in climate, a new ice age or even our atmosphere going haywire to a certain degree. But personally, I feel that is besides the point. Even IF we could adapt, the question is, whether or not thats a desireable way to handle the situation. There's a lot of future visions dealing with human kind still alive on a completely destructed planet. But I can't think any of it that looks like a place I'd like to live in. So if I had to chose whether to potentially stop that degradation from ever happening and just sit back and say "nahh, we might adapt", I'd go for the former.

Because indeed, doing nothing can lead to a future very few of us would want. To act to protect our own habitat however, will hardly do any harm, even if the assumptions turn out wrong.
At least, that's following our current state of scientific knowledge. There's obviously also the possibilty that doing nothing will save the planet, and acting will destroy it. That's the paradox of the future. We won't know until we can look back at it. But never the less, deciding what actions we should take should be based on as much knowledge and facts as possible.
Posted: Mon, 27th Apr 2009, 1:03pm

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Coureur de Bois

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Evman: You're amazing. I think I might have developed a man-crush on you.

Let's go to Iowa and get married.
Posted: Mon, 27th Apr 2009, 1:16pm

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petet2

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Wow I came to this debate late and most of responses I was formulating as I worked my way through ended up being said by others already so I gave out a few +1s rather than relabour points already well made.

A couple of points I will still make:

Al Gore's movie may have had a big impact in the US but the issues it discussed weren't new in the UK (and probably Europe) and I don't think the man or the movie has affected policy over here. We were already ahead of the game.

I love the way that the Antis argue that global warming and climate change are scare stories spread as some kind of global conspiracy to sell us more expensive light bulbs. Like there aren't any big industry polluters who might have a vested financial reason or billion to attempt to discredit the concept. Oh hang on - isn't it all of them?

The fact that even the scientists can't agree is completely normal. I studied the philosophy of science at university and the concept of paradigm shifts. The world start off flat and then a few madmen suggest it's a sphere. They get shouted down at first but over time their arguments become more convincing (with increased evidence) and now we live on a sphere and it's the flat Earthers we all laugh at.

We've had that paradigm shift with climate change and we've had it because the evidence for it is greater than the evidence against. Those against climate change say the effects aren't great or that they are happening for another reason but to deny that they exist at all flies in the face of evidence from around that world.

Evman makes some great comments in response to someone's argument that 1.3 degrees isn't much of a change in 100 years. I live in the UK which has a remarkably temperate climate - remarkable because if you look at the climate in some of the countries on the same latitude as the UK they have fearsome winters while we have mild ones (and wish for snow). This is all down to the Atlantic Heat Conveyor - one of the many currents moving around the world's oceans and bringing with it some warmth. The melting polar ice caps (and it's happening (ignore the reasons, us or the volcanoes)) add more cold water to the oceans and will eventually stop the Atlantic Heat Conveyor. When that stops? The UK is plunged into Russian winters of constant sub zero temperatures and snow for months on end.
Posted: Mon, 27th Apr 2009, 5:14pm

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Terminal Velocity

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My last statement on this subject: I think the world's temperature is inevitably going to fluctuate and every time will be believed to be global warming. The earth survived an Ice Age, it can survive a Desert Age. And if humans are wiped out, think on the bright side. There are always polar bears. wink

EDIT: I finished with a joke. Rather lame, but it's a joke. And that's new.
Posted: Mon, 27th Apr 2009, 5:52pm

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Klut

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Atom wrote:

Klut will always have the running 'nemesis' joke relationship with Atom, too. Ever since early 2004.
Atom and Malone made a man out of me.
Posted: Mon, 27th Apr 2009, 8:57pm

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Atom

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*Atom wipes single tear from his eye.
Posted: Mon, 27th Apr 2009, 8:57pm

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Evman

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Richard III wrote:

There are always polar bears. wink

No. No there won't be. We're destroying their home.

Gorion - Iowa? Really? razz
Posted: Mon, 27th Apr 2009, 9:39pm

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Fill

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Richard III wrote:

But the difference between us and the dinosaurs is rather large. They were big and scary, but they weren't smart.
Not smart?
Posted: Mon, 27th Apr 2009, 9:58pm

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pixelboy

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Richard III wrote:

But the difference between us and the dinosaurs is rather large. They were big and scary, but they weren't smart.
Big and scary?
Posted: Mon, 27th Apr 2009, 10:57pm

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jawajohnny

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A couple recent articles:

Climate Change forces Eskimos to abandon village

Clinton says U.S. no longer AWOL on climate change

And to any lingering skeptics, here's a few disturbing facts I pulled from Gore's website and CNN:

-Global sea levels could rise by more than 20 feet with the loss of shelf ice in Greenland and Antarctica, devastating coastal areas worldwide

-The Arctic Ocean could be ice free in summer by 2050

-More than a million species worldwide could be driven to extinction by 2050

-UN: Climate change will force displacement of 150 million people by 2050


For anyone who hasn't seen An Inconvenient Truth, I highly recommend watching the trailer, just because it gives some great visuals to what is happening now, and what will happen if we allow this to continue. Just the trailer alone should convince you that global warming is a serious problem, and that we are the ones causing it.

Evman's right. The polar bears will be one of those species extinct by 2050, or sooner. sad
Posted: Wed, 29th Apr 2009, 10:47pm

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ssj john

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Total buzz kill Jawajohnny. Way to be a downer. biggrin
Posted: Thu, 30th Apr 2009, 4:45am

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Pooky

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Polar bears are cute! surprised

Posted: Thu, 30th Apr 2009, 11:51pm

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ssj john

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Yummy! cool
Posted: Fri, 1st May 2009, 12:05am

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Terminal Velocity

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That's a sickeningly awesome picture. I've always wanted to see the insides of...whatever those are the insides of. All the same, I wouldn't exactly want to be eating it. Raw and still warm.
Posted: Fri, 1st May 2009, 9:22pm

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No Respite Productions

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Awwwwwww. He's sooooo cuuuuuuute!

What we don't realise is that was actually another photographer!
Posted: Sat, 2nd May 2009, 3:16am

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Pooky

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No Respite Productions wrote:

Awwwwwww. He's sooooo cuuuuuuute!

What we don't realise is that was actually another photographer!
Naw, actually, the guy set the camera on a timer, connected to a PC that automatically posted the picture to his Flickr. He was trying to get a picture of himself hugging the bear.

Richard III wrote:

I wouldn't exactly want to be eating it. Raw and still warm.
That's what she said.