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LOST Season Six [UK Folks, There Be Spoilers Here Tuesdays]

What is your favorite season of Lost so far?

One (Character-based Island Drama)23%[ 5 ]
Two (Mysterious Island Drama/Action)32%[ 7 ]
Three (Mysterious Romance Drama/Sci-Fi/Action)14%[ 3 ]
Four (Mysterious Romance Drama/Time Travel Sci-Fi/Action)14%[ 3 ]
Five (Straight Up Time Travel Sci-Fi/Action/Hint of Mysterious Romance Drama)18%[ 4 ]

Total Votes : 22

Posted: Wed, 3rd Feb 2010, 9:26am

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Aculag

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Well, we had short-lived threads about Fringe and V, so I figure it's worth chatting about the final season of my favorite show of all time, Lost.

I can't be the only person here who is watching this still...

Tonight's premiere was up there with the great episodes of the series, as far as I'm concerned. They introduced new elements, as is tradition, but there is a very distinct feeling of familiarity, as well as impending closure, throughout. A lot of really emotional scenes for people who have followed the series from the beginning, as well. I fully believe that Terry O'Quinn should be nominated for an Emmy just based on tonight's premiere. He was incredible.

I won't go into details unless the discussion gets rolling, but hopefully I'm not the only one interested in discussing this show. You guys are losties, right? Let's talk about Lost, because this is the last time we'll be able to do so. smile/sad

4815162342

DO NOT READ THIS THREAD UNLESS YOU HAVE SEEN THE MOST RECENT EPISODE, AS THERE WILL BE DISCUSSION FROM THE PEOPLE WHO SEE IT ON TUESDAYS. Thank you.

Last edited Fri, 2nd Apr 2010, 8:24pm; edited 3 times in total.

Posted: Wed, 3rd Feb 2010, 3:13pm

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Rockfilmers

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I have to say two right now, but I'm still watching 5 (I watch them on DVD). Two kept me on the edge of my seat and I would watch at least three a night. It seems like everything after that slowed WAY down to the point of repeating it's self.
Posted: Wed, 3rd Feb 2010, 3:52pm

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Axeman

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Season One was good, two got really stupid, and by halfway through season three, I hated every character on the show so much (exept Hurley) that I stopped watching.
Posted: Wed, 3rd Feb 2010, 4:12pm

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Pooky

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I watched 1, 2 and 3 and kept interested throughout, but then came 4, of which I expected at least SOME answers, and instead they just introduced a bunch of new characters and confused everything up even more, so I stopped watching it then. neutral
Posted: Wed, 3rd Feb 2010, 4:36pm

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Simon K Jones

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Season one was good, two got really stupid, and by halfway through season three I simply didn't care about any of the characters on the show (exept Hurley) and I stopped watching.
Posted: Wed, 3rd Feb 2010, 6:02pm

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Rockfilmers

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Take it back! Season two was the best! I'm surprised everyone thinks it was so stupid, that one was my favorite.
Posted: Wed, 3rd Feb 2010, 6:11pm

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Aculag

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Haha, wow. Not a lot of faith in here! wink

You guys are missing out on some amazing payoff with the ending of season five, and the small amount of season six that we've gotten so far. I'd recommend checking it out once the series is finished, because all of the complaints I had built up in seasons 1-4 were washed away by season 5. And replaced with new ones! wink But really, even though the plot gets a bit... insanely complex in seasons 4 and 5, you can really see the pieces falling into place now. Watching old episodes, you pick up on foreshadowing that never occurred to you, and see connections that weren't all the way there yet, back in seasons one or two. The third or fourth episode of season one has an ending that practically spells out where John Locke's plot is taking him. It was always sinister, but it's way cooler now that we know what we know.

Even if it was made up as they went along, they are drawing to a stunning conclusion, I think. They've explored so many different ideas, but like I said before, episodes 1 and 2 of season 6 have had a heavy feeling of closure. There are new characters and new mysteries, of course, but now that the end is in sight, the new things are exciting instead of frustrating, and they are doing a great job of answering past questions subtly, and bringing characters to the end of their arcs.

It's pretty good I give it two thumbs up, homie.

I think that if you ever enjoyed the show before you stopped watching, you should definitely give it another shot once it's all on DVD or hulu or what not. It's shaping up to be a very satisfying, albeit convoluted, series overall.

Edit: Season 2 was frustrating to view while it aired because it really dragged stuff out, and there were a lot of breaks, so it seemed like it took forever to go anywhere. It's a much better experience to watch them all in a row at your leisure, rather than having to wait weeks at a time between filler episodes. This can be said for most seasons of Lost, though, which is why I think watching it all start to finish after it's over is a good idea.
Posted: Wed, 3rd Feb 2010, 6:26pm

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Atom

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I used to be the biggest Lost devotee; and in truth I do get completely wrenched and engrossed by the genius and complexity (and less-frustrated than most people) that comes in missing a set of episodes and trying to go cold-turkey back into it- but the truth of the matter is Lost is a show that requires time and dedication, and most people just don't have it.

It's not simply a matter of watching all the episodes really quickly before the final season's premiere- but feeling like you've grown and be tormented alongside the characters and odd premises- to me much moreso than any other show I've ever watched on television- that earns you the reward of conclusions that is likely to come in these next few episodes. It's that viewing over years, not hours, that makes you care and brings the series full-circle. Which may sound elitist, but even I haven't kept up entirely to benefit from this- and I think woe is the way the show was setup.

Lost isn't a show filled with baseless questions; it's an unravelling, exceedingly-long narrative- it doesn't have to tie up all loose ends, but it can't not give resolve, either.

Yeah, it's convoluted and weird and frustratingly-obtuse. And yeah, I hate to say but I don't keep up with it anymore despite watching until season 5- but I'd be really bold in trying to doubt the show's timelessness.

Lost is a show to be appreciated and enjoyed over time and with commitment- which makes it less-accessible; yes. But perhaps all-the-more enjoyable.
Posted: Wed, 3rd Feb 2010, 8:47pm

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Axeman

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Aculag wrote:

Season 2 was frustrating to view while it aired because it really dragged stuff out, and there were a lot of breaks, so it seemed like it took forever to go anywhere. It's a much better experience to watch them all in a row at your leisure, rather than having to wait weeks at a time between filler episodes. This can be said for most seasons of Lost, though, which is why I think watching it all start to finish after it's over is a good idea.
I didn't start watching the show at all until season 2 was on dvd. I then watched through seasons 1 and 2 via Netflix, and shortly thereafter went into season 3 as it aired. Didn't help.
Posted: Wed, 3rd Feb 2010, 9:47pm

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Dancamfx

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Stopped in the middle of season 4, just got too out of control
Posted: Wed, 3rd Feb 2010, 10:42pm

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Axeman

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Atom wrote:

Lost is a show to be appreciated and enjoyed over time and with commitment- which makes it less-accessible; yes. But perhaps all-the-more enjoyable.
I disagree. The reason I stopped watching the show was that it was completely un-enjoyable. All of the characters were people I didn't like (except Hurley), and I found myself watching the show hoping that someone would die in this episode. The 'character flaws' that were developed for each character were so severe and profound that they all eventually were revealed to be slime, and rather than caring at all what happened to them, I was hoping that one or other of the preposterous events that kept popping up in the plot would start eliminating them in short order. Which led me to wonder why I was watching the show at all. So I stopped.

And was disappointed, as the first season I found very engaging, interesting and enjoyable.
Posted: Thu, 4th Feb 2010, 1:47am

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Aculag

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Well it's certainly not a show for everyone. If you just straight up don't like it, you're not going to change your mind, no matter how much of it you watch.

For me, the most irritating part of the show is the love triangle/romance aspect. It always feels forced, because it is. But, there are maaaany people who only watch for that aspect. Go figure!
Posted: Thu, 4th Feb 2010, 2:25am

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Pooky

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Go Team Sawyer!
Posted: Thu, 4th Feb 2010, 4:56am

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Thrawn

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Lost is awesome. End of story. My word is truth.
Posted: Thu, 4th Feb 2010, 5:57am

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Aculag

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Thrawn wrote:

Lost is awesome. End of story. My word is truth.
Listen to this man.

I'm curious why no one has picked season 3 as their favorite yet. That season was hell while it was airing because the Hydra arc took so damn long, and then there was a break. It was a slow start, yes, but from Par Avion forward, the entire thing is solid gold.

It also features my favorite scene in the entire series, when Rousseau blows up a huge tree and Jack is all, "When they get here... we're gonna blow 'em all to hell." Since they got their 2010 end date halfway through season 3, that scene really feels like a turning point in the series. They were finally able to stop pussyfooting around the core concepts of the show, and just dive in, and it's been pretty much non-stop awesome since then.

Plus, the finale has one of the most awesome twists in television history.

Of course, I chose season 4 as my (current, at least) favorite, pretty much just because of The Constant, and the fact that season 4 cemented it as a science fiction show.
Posted: Thu, 4th Feb 2010, 7:49am

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rogolo

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Wow, didn't expect so much negativity! smile

I've been anxiously waiting for season six, and the premiere episode did not disappoint. It is comfortably in my top 10 of Lost eps. Great great ending. Damn. Just a great episode.

I picked S1 as the best. It has the most memorable scenes, quotes, speeches, and just watching it gives you the feeling of starting on a long journey with intriguing characters that you want to know more about. Initially, I watched this for a show about survival on a desolate island, and S1 sort of satiated that thirst. Season 4 was easily the most uninteresting, which is a shame after the brilliant latter half of Season 3.

And I still miss Mr. Eko.
Posted: Thu, 4th Feb 2010, 9:50am

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Simon K Jones

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I'm waiting until the show ends, at which point I'll field some opinions from people that watched it as to whether it has a good ending or not. Because Lost is a series that will live or die on its ending. If they say it's good, and satisfying, then I may well watch the whole thing, confident in the knowledge that it ends well.

Atom wrote:

but the truth of the matter is Lost is a show that requires time and dedication, and most people just don't have it.
Hey, I grew up on Babylon 5, one of the first shows to do long-running story arcs. It has a slow burn arc that runs for 5 years, and is my preferred style of television storytelling. I can handle this kind of show. smile

The difference is that season 2 of Lost is appallingly badly written. It's painfully clear that it's being put together by people either with no endgame or no idea of when the endgame is happening. In terms of pacing and structure it is utterly woeful.

I loved season 1 - was completely addicted - and what I saw of season 3 was certainly a major improvement. But season 2 had sapped my enthusiasm. The constant flip-flopping of characters was really sad to see: the characters were being wrestled to fit into the plot developments, whether it made sense or not. It's the same thing that happened to Heroes (although it never got THAT bad).

However, everyone does seem to think that it improves quite a bit from the second half of season 3 onwards. The fact that Brian K Vaughan came on board to write is enough to get my interest, to be honest. But, as I say, I'm going to wait to find out whether it has a good ending before I commit.
Posted: Thu, 4th Feb 2010, 10:19pm

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Limey

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Posted: Sun, 7th Feb 2010, 12:09am

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Aculag

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Some of the examples of why Lost has the most expensive TV Pilot of all time. It's a shame that they aren't still running at a higher budget, but it makes sense. The show also doesn't look anything like "cheap", unless they do some kind of underwater CG sequence, or anything involving a diving submarine. wink
Posted: Sun, 7th Feb 2010, 12:32am

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FreshMentos

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I like Lost. I like this season. It's good. Don't feel like saying much else.
Posted: Tue, 9th Feb 2010, 8:54pm

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Aculag

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New episode tonight, people.

6x03 - "What Kate Does" A nice reference to a previous episode, "What Kate Did." Kate-centric episodes are usually pretty dull, since Kate is completely useless, but at least we will probably find out what happened to Sayid! Also, in Timeline X, we last left Kate hijacking a cab with Claire inside, so expect more of that. Is Claire pregnant in Timeline X? Will we finally get to see her on the island again? Will Kate make a bad decision and get someone injured or killed like she always does?

Tune in tonight, 9/8c, on ABC to find out! Woo! Lost!
Posted: Tue, 9th Feb 2010, 9:42pm

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Sollthar

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I was really hooked with Lost, even after the rather bad season 2. Season 3 introduced some cool elements and I sincerely love "ben".

But the longer the show went on, the more it became clear that they weren't giving us any answers and are just writing "on the go". The leave key plot elements leaving off into nowhere and the whole premise of the show just doesn't hold for that long. Lost should have been over after 4 seasons tops. But alas, it went on and became a drag I stopped watching.

The main problem is, I don't even care anymore for the answers to all the at first intriguing questions I had.

So Lost has definately "jumped the fridge" a long time ago for me.
Posted: Tue, 9th Feb 2010, 11:23pm

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Aculag

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Rating: +2

Sucks to be you. wink
Posted: Wed, 10th Feb 2010, 5:57am

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Sollthar

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Heh, you have no idea. smile
Posted: Wed, 10th Feb 2010, 7:24am

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Aculag

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Well, tonight's episode was just okay compared to last week, but it did give some good information, and yay! Claire's back!
Posted: Mon, 15th Feb 2010, 7:04pm

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Mellifluous

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I'm still watching and still loving it. Best show (apart from BSG) that I've been able to see as it airs.

I still love Season 2, because the premiere paid off the cliffhanger of season 1, introduced us to Desmond which led us to Flashes Before Your Eyes in season 3, the episode that started off the show's true direction?
Posted: Tue, 16th Feb 2010, 1:19pm

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jotoki

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Not much time so I'll keep this short

Season 1: fantstic
Season 2: Still Great
Season 3: Mostly Pants, almost stopped watching
Season 4: Much better
Season 5: Very good
Season 6: Dissappointing so far.
Posted: Tue, 16th Feb 2010, 10:47pm

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Aculag

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jotoki wrote:

Season 6: Dissappointing so far.
See, this is why there is no Season 6 poll option. It's far too early to be judging it as a season. And you must have had your expectations set ridiculously high if your not enjoying S6 so far, after liking 4 and 5! wink

Anyway, there's more disappointment ahead, jotoki!

New episode tonight! 6x04 - "The Substitute" All I know about this one is that it's Locke-centric, which means it's probably going to kick last week's rather puny ass. I'm hoping to find out what happened to Richard and Ben after Fake Locke/Smokey threw a fit in LA X pt. 2. Don't really care what goes down in the X timeline, but I get the feeling it's going to have something to do with a substitute...

Post-watch Update: Uh, yeah. Definitely a much stronger episode than last week's. Lots of good mythology progression tonight, and some more development of the Smokey/Richard thing. A nice focus on the similarities between John and Smokey, summed up with that ol' chestnut "Don't tell me what I can't do."

Ben being a teacher in the alt timeline was hysterical, and I'm really hoping we get a little more of that. Definitely going to have to re-watch this one!
Posted: Wed, 17th Feb 2010, 9:31pm

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Thrawn

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The new episode was easily the best of the season so far, though I understand that's not saying much considering we're only four episodes in. We're almost getting some answers now. Did anyone else notice the symbolism with the scale of good and evil? I hope they continue in that type of direction to wrap the show up.
Posted: Wed, 17th Feb 2010, 9:46pm

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Aculag

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Thrawn wrote:

Did anyone else notice the symbolism with the scale of good and evil?
I like to think there is no "good and evil" on Lost. There's darkness and light, but no side is any more or less evil than the other. The conflict between Jacob and Smokey is still very ambiguous, and there's really no telling who is the "good guy", even though we've had a few factions introduce themselves as that.

I'm sure it'll come up again later, because the black and white theme has been there from the beginning. The tipping of the scale in favor of the black stone was really cool, though. That entire scene was.

Notice that they climbed "Jacob's Ladder"? wink
Posted: Thu, 18th Feb 2010, 1:27pm

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jotoki

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It's not the quality thats dissappointing to me. I'ts the direction they are going with the story that I currently find dissappointing. We are after all 5 full seasons in so while it's early in season six I believe I know enough of what to expect by now. After all I wasn't dissapointed at the start of any of the seasons I liked. So yes I am dissapointed so far, the important words are "so far" I really hope there is more and better come and assume there is. I just expected much more interesting and much more intelligent stuff from the start I guess. I feel season 6 hasn't delivered so far is all as do a the other guys I work with that have watched from season one. Just an opinion, hopefully it will change as time goes on. New episode here in the uk tomorrow night after all!
Posted: Thu, 18th Feb 2010, 10:39pm

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Aculag

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I'm feeling like we're not watching the same show! Season 6 is off to a much better start than say, Season 3? That was 6 full episodes of silly love triangle garbage. Not saying you're wrong to be disappointed, I think I can see where you're coming from, but I think I'm just a lot more excited about it than you. smile Hopefully once you see this week's episode, your mind will change, because it's really one of the best of the series, definitely the best of the season so far. Keyword: so far. wink

The first few episodes had me pumped, but this week's got me in "Holy crap this is really happening" mode, and it's a good thing.
Posted: Wed, 24th Feb 2010, 1:00am

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Aculag

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Well, it's Tuesday again! That means it's time for me to post about the new Lost episode airing tonight, and then later, talk to myself about it.

6x05 - "Lighthouse" Tis a Jack episode. This means we are still totally mirroring season one as far as episode-centricity goes. If this continues, I'm guessing next week will be the Jin/Sun reunion, but they'll have to stop after that, since season one episode 7 was a Charlie episode. And uh, he's dead.

Anyway, I'll be back after it airs on the west coast to discuss.

Edit: Yeah, another solid episode. Lots of good reveals, and lots of crazy Claire.
Posted: Mon, 1st Mar 2010, 1:10pm

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jotoki

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It's getting better
Posted: Wed, 3rd Mar 2010, 8:03am

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Aculag

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Tonight's episode started slow, but daaaaaamn, did it pick up. This season is awesome.
Posted: Wed, 3rd Mar 2010, 1:00pm

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jotoki

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won't see it till Friday over here but still looking forward to it
Posted: Wed, 10th Mar 2010, 7:14am

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Aculag

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Another really solid episode tonight. Basically confirmed that Richard was on the Black Rock, and Jack finally believes that he's on the Island for a reason. Wow. I can't believe that I've loved every episode so far, except for Kate's. And I have a feeling that it's only going to keep getting better.
Posted: Wed, 10th Mar 2010, 12:02pm

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pdrg

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http://www.theonion.com/content/video/final_season_of_lost_promises_to
Posted: Wed, 10th Mar 2010, 12:03pm

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Simon K Jones

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Who needs to watch the show when you can just read this topic instead?
Posted: Wed, 10th Mar 2010, 1:00pm

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jotoki

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hey Aculag, spoiler warnings please. We don't all live in the US so we don't all see it tuesdays
Posted: Thu, 11th Mar 2010, 12:05am

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Aculag

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Uh, sorry guys. I keep forgetting that (a) people don't get to see it at the same time, and (b) that people are reading this thread. Kinda hard to have a discussion about this show in here. I might just give up... I try to not provide too many details, but I guess you don't want any at all! Makes for a bit of a one-sided conversation. wink

That post doesn't really have any hardcore spoilers in it, anyway. When do you get to see it? Friday?
Posted: Thu, 11th Mar 2010, 6:02am

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Thrawn

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Loved this weeks episode.. (Spoilers) I really enjoyed going into Ben's "other reality". Really interesting, especially with the choice between his "daughter" and his amount of power. Interesting that he made the right decision this time around. Loving this season.
Posted: Tue, 16th Mar 2010, 9:45pm

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Staff Only

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*Spoilers*

Agreed. Loved Dr. Linus. Ben is of course my favorite character. But where is the love for Sundown? It had the most epic Smoke Monster scene since The Shape of Things to Come, and I'm really enjoying Terry O'Quinn's portrayal of The Man in Black.



"Now why'd you go an do that?"

Also the Keamy scene had me laughing out loud.

"Want poached? 'Cause I can make you some good poached eggs."

To late for me to write any theories, but if I find the time I'll see if I can write something this weekend so you don't have to speak to yourself about Lost, Aculag. wink
Posted: Wed, 17th Mar 2010, 5:29am

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FreshMentos

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Wow, that was sweet episode. Probably my favorite for Sawyer so far. Can't wait for next week's.
Posted: Wed, 17th Mar 2010, 6:03am

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Aculag

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Yeah, I liked that one too. Definitely a slow mover, like last week, but I'm frankly really glad that they're able to slow it down a bit, while still providing a good amount of information in each episode.

Next week we're halfway there! sad
Posted: Wed, 17th Mar 2010, 6:42am

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Atom

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Just spent far too long a time back in Dallas where my parents have DVR'd every recent episode and then left on vacation themselves- so I've sat here home alone getting caught up.

Needless to say, I'm loving it. Dr. Linus has to now be one of my all-time favorite episodes. I'm slightly wary about Richard Alpert becoming a fanatical, overly-caricaturized character- mostly because I think he's such a good one right now- but other than that I'm really liking the full-circle-ness the series is being taken in. Can't wait for more.

Ben Linus is the best character in any TV drama right now IMO.
Posted: Wed, 17th Mar 2010, 7:56am

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ashman

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Rating: +1

Ben Linus is the best character in any TV drama right now IMO.
Completely agree.

It's funny how my opinion of Ben (or should that be Dr) changes along with the other character's as the story develops. I can't help but feel sorry for him even though he's been a lying, murdering, self rightous scallywag!

Very well put together, loved how they played the school story with Alex and how your expectations are flipped at the end.

I have mixed feelings about the whole series ending - but really looking forward to seeing how it all plays out.
Posted: Wed, 17th Mar 2010, 1:15pm

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jotoki

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yeah it's friday in the UK not sure about other places outside the US. Incidentally I agree. Ben is the bes character now they've gone and posessed old Locke
Posted: Thu, 18th Mar 2010, 1:06am

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Serpent

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I stopped watching it "live" after season 4 and then I just lost motivation to continue. But I loved it so much when I was watching it, that I decided to totally rewatch it from the beginning so as not to be confused when I watched 5 and 6. Finally caught up to the latest episode this week.

I highly recommend watching it from beginning to end (not in one sitting obviously). It's easier to make connections, and there are SO many. Not that this is the only way to do it, I'm sure those of you with better memories don't need to do this.

But God damn this show is brilliant. Every single character is fantastic, and as ben said, it really is coming around full circle, which I didn't expect at all after season 4 ended. A lot of people say they just BS it as they go along, but they most certainly don't now that I'm caught up. Good to see it had a purpose from the beginning. I'm very satisfied so far.
Posted: Thu, 18th Mar 2010, 2:58am

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Aculag

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And next week will probably be the greatest Lost episode ever...

Highlight to read: ...Because it's a Richard Alpert episode that will likely take place almost entirely in the past, and has the potential to answer a TON of questions, including, but not limited to: Why Richard doesn't age, how the Black Rock ended up so far inland, and (perhaps most importantly) what happened just after the nuke went off in 1977. Can't wait.
Okay, spoilers over. The fact that next week is the mid-point of the season is also a pretty good indicator that huge things are going to go down. I can only imagine how crazy the final 9 episodes are going to get. It's going to be epic.
Posted: Thu, 18th Mar 2010, 1:00pm

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jotoki

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Thanks for the spoiler warning acu most appreciated. Didn't click it was mid season so should indeed be a good one. Looking forward to tomorrow. And flash forward back here in the UK monday too. Not everyones cup of tea but I've been enjoying it
Posted: Thu, 18th Mar 2010, 1:03pm

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drspin98

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ashman wrote:

I can't help but feel sorry for him even though he's been a lying, murdering, self rightous scallywag!
+1 to anyone who uses "scallywag" in a sentence!!
Posted: Fri, 19th Mar 2010, 7:52am

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I watched season's 1 tru 4 on my iTouch starting last year. If I miss it on TV I watch it the next day on hulu.com, I really like the parallel universe going on in this the last season. Over all no show in the last ten years has made me want to watch every episode.
Posted: Fri, 19th Mar 2010, 8:20am

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Moonloon1 wrote:

I watched season's 1 tru 4 on my iTouch starting last year. If I miss it on TV I watch it the next day on hulu.com, I really like the parallel universe going on in this the last season. Over all no show in the last ten years has made me want to watch every episode.
You watched almost 60 hours of Lost on an iPod Touch?

Kudos...I guess.
Posted: Fri, 19th Mar 2010, 4:58pm

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Moonloon1

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I have a 4 year old and while he watches Spongebob (or whatever) I watch the iTouch. So I usually got to watch two episodes before bedtime. I also have a composite (RGB) TV interface for the iTouch and watched some episodes on a TV, or on the computer.
Posted: Sat, 20th Mar 2010, 12:20am

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Aculag

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I've watched a season's worth of Top Chef on my iPhone. The video quality is surprisingly watchable, but I can't imagine watching Lost on something so small. I have a 32" HDTV and that still seems too small. wink I applaud your perseverance, Moonloon.

On the other hand, I bet it made some of the ultra-crappy CG shots (Submarine in S3) more palatable. smile
Posted: Sat, 20th Mar 2010, 1:13am

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Moonloon1

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I had a small 2.5" B/W TV called a Binoc when I was around 12 (1969 no VCR's and only three channels) so I am used to a small screen. And yes the iTouch quality is quite good plus my wife doesn't wah, wah at me for not spending time with my boy even though I spend more time with him than she does!
Posted: Mon, 22nd Mar 2010, 12:20am

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drspin98

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I love Lost. But let's get something straight-we will NOT be told answers to most of the big questions. Who/what is Jacob, what the heck is the island anyway, etc.

I'm getting tired of this dialogue between one of the Six and someone on the island after the Six have a question,"....I will answer all your questions later/or you're not ready for the answer...."

It will leave all of us frustrated and debating questions for which no answers exist.

And don't get me started on the number of confounded commercials!

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Posted: Mon, 22nd Mar 2010, 2:13am

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Aculag

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If you're expecting answers, you'll usually be disappointed, basically. People who have watched from the beginning know that the show takes forever to get around to answering things. The promos are the worst, though... They are always going to say "ALL YOUR QUESTIONS ANSWERED!!!" and they will always be lying.

We'll get satisfactory explanations for a lot of things, but we'll likely have to collect and assemble clues in order to do so. For example, the food pallet drop. This won't be explained on the show, but the Mysteries of the Universe videos they made have enough clues that we can basically make an informed guess as to how and why it happened.

We will get a lot of answers, but yeah, some of the major stuff is too mysterious, and is best left that way, or many people will hate the explanations. The producers had a big problem with Star Wars Episode 1 explaining why the force exists with technobabble, and they won't let the same thing happen with Lost. Many questions are better left to the audience's imagination. And leaving it that way is the perfect way to preserve the legacy of the show, and leave it open for discourse. I hope it ends with a HUGE twist/cliffhanger, because that'll give the audience something to keep discussing years later. Think "Twin Peaks".

However, I do actually expect this week's episode to be particularly revealing. We shall see.
Posted: Mon, 22nd Mar 2010, 3:24am

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Serpent

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Spoilers for those of you who are way behind:

I don't expect all my questions to be answered, but I feel like they will point us in some kind of direction at least as to who Jacob really is. I want the island to remain a mystery, but since season 2 they've been carrying the Jacob mystery with all kinds of weird hints, even off the show (like the Dharma brainwash video, which I watched recently, states this near the end: "God loves you as he loved Jacob" - note the past tense, and this was made before he died...). Then the flashback earlier this season with Jacob and the personified form of "the monster," and I feel like they brought up a conversation that HAS to be explained. If Jacob was JUST the person that people answered to and stuff like that then he could be a mystery, but they involved him too much in the show this season especially for them to keep it a total mystery.

The island I can see as being left ambiguous, kind of mysterious and almost religious, but I feel like they will explain what those two have to do with the island at the very least. It's like the Bible not explaining how God came to be (where God is the island in this analogy), but they explain the purpose of Jesus, who he is, etc. I don't know if I'm properly explaining myself, but maybe my predictions will make more sense after the show ends and I can put it into better words (assuming they do indeed answer that question, which is really the only one that is important to me to be answered).

Also (this is just cool, has nothing to do with the mysteries... or does it?), 4 8 15 16 23 42 being broadcasted over the radio that Rousseau and her team heard is a reference to Number stations:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numbers_station

Just learned about this recently, found it fascinating. You can find examples of real number station broadcasts on Youtube, VERY creepy. Apparently used to send secret messages, possibly with orders, to certain people, usually spies. Just thought it was cool.

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Posted: Mon, 22nd Mar 2010, 3:33am

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Atom

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No, I see what you mean- and I think that's a rather apt analogy. If God is the island, the most-assuredly Jacob is Jesus; at least in the scripture-of-the-Bible sense.

I would hope they'd leave it like that as well.
Posted: Mon, 22nd Mar 2010, 6:46am

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Aculag

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I would hope that they don't even touch the bible as any sort of explanation. There are, and always have been, a lot of religious themes on the show, but there are even more references to Egyptian mythology. Set is a much more appropriate analogue for Jacob than Jesus is, especially with the statue of Taweret that Jacob lives in...

If the island is "God" I am going to throw up in my mouth. I would much prefer no explanation at all over "It's God and Jesus and the Bible! Yay go religion!" But that's just me. wink

However, I think the island is actually being set up to be the "root of all myth", and that will encompass Christian and Egyptian mythologies, Atlantis, and so on. There's so much bizarre stuff on the island, and it's presumably old enough that even ancient cultures could have based their religious mythology on it. But again, I hope it remains as ambiguous as possible, because any actual explanations are going to just piss people off.
Posted: Mon, 22nd Mar 2010, 7:10am

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Serpent

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Just to clarify, my analogy wasn't direct at all. Not saying island = God, or Jacob = Jesus. I just meant in terms of story, Bible doesn't explain God but explains Jesus, where God is the mystery and Jesus is one of the explained products of that mystery.

Not that the Bible is supposed to be read as a mystery story like Lost, hehe. Like I said, it was a mediocre analogy, just couldn't think of a better one quickly. And when I said that the island was a "religious mystery," I meant it in the way you explained it in your last paragraph. Ancient sh*t that can't really be logically explained.

My main point is, for me to be totally satisfied, all they need to do is explain Jacob and the smoke monster (Jews?!?!?! I'm kidding, don't hurt me). Not even entirely, just somewhat. (Like Jesus, we don't understand how he was conceived in the Bible's story. But we know who he is, we know his purpose.)

And if island = God, Jacob = Jesus, and Locke = Jews, I will lose almost all respect for the show. It just simply isn't going to happen, ABC wouldn't allow it. I hope I haven't opened Pandora's box.
Posted: Mon, 22nd Mar 2010, 7:35am

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Atom

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Serpent wrote:

My main point is, for me to be totally satisfied, all they need to do is explain Jacob and the smoke monster (Jews?!?!?! I'm kidding, don't hurt me). Not even entirely, just somewhat. (Like Jesus, we don't understand how he was conceived in the Bible's story. But we know who he is, we know his purpose.
Basically what I thought you meant.
Posted: Mon, 22nd Mar 2010, 7:41am

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Aculag

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Serpent wrote:

My main point is, for me to be totally satisfied, all they need to do is explain Jacob and the smoke monster (Jews?!?!?! I'm kidding, don't hurt me). Not even entirely, just somewhat. (Like Jesus, we don't understand how he was conceived in the Bible's story. But we know who he is, we know his purpose.)
Right, and I totally agree with this. Also, I laughed really hard at the smoke monster being an analogy for Jews. wink I guess my point is that the bible's explanation for Jesus is "God did it", and I really don't want that to be the explanation for Lost.

I'm guessing that we will get a very good explanation as to who Jacob and the Smoke Monster are, and here's why: (Spoilers! Highlight to read this! DO NOT HIGHLIGHT IF YOU DON'T WANT TO SEE MAJOR PLOT DETAILS FOR A LATE-SEASON EPISODE. You've been warned.) Episode 15 is entitled "Across The Sea", and it is a Jacob/MIB flashback that takes place in the year AD 23. If that doesn't answer some questions, nothing will. Incidentally, this was the tidbit that caused me to stop seeking spoilers for this season, because that is huge. (Okay, it's safe now.)
Posted: Tue, 23rd Mar 2010, 1:05pm

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jotoki

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if it goes down the religious route I'll bin all my box sets. That would be such a huge copout.
Posted: Wed, 24th Mar 2010, 6:07am

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Aculag

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Wow, really excellent episode tonight. Lots of information, lots of callbacks... This is starting to get heavy.
Posted: Wed, 24th Mar 2010, 7:26am

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Pooky

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Posted: Wed, 24th Mar 2010, 9:11am

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Aculag

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Hehe... Well, like I said earlier, if you're watching Lost and expecting answers, you are watching the wrong show.

However, I think it's funny that the date on that cartoon is the date that the most revealing episode of Lost ever aired. Kinda makes it a little pointless. wink
Posted: Thu, 25th Mar 2010, 1:48am

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FreshMentos

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This may very well have been my favorite episode.
Posted: Thu, 25th Mar 2010, 2:11am

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Serpent

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Agreed, that was BRILLIANT. This is getting so exciting, and everything is starting to make sense.

Episode spoiler:

The very last clip when "the monster" smashed the wine bottle sent chills down my spine.
Posted: Thu, 25th Mar 2010, 2:47am

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alienux

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FreshMentos wrote:

This may very well have been my favorite episode.
I said that very same thing to my wife when we were re-capping the episode earlier today. It gave lots of new information and provided some explanations, but did so while still leaving some questions and mysteries to think about.
Posted: Thu, 25th Mar 2010, 1:06pm

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jotoki

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sounds like tomorrow is going to be a good day then. Look forward to seeing this weeks
Posted: Thu, 1st Apr 2010, 11:23am

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drspin98

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What a disappointing episode (especially considering the previous one). No real info given-not to mention the fact I never was the least bit interested in Sun and Jin. At least I don't cringe every time I see them like I do the useless Claire (and that ridiculous wig she now wears).
Posted: Thu, 1st Apr 2010, 11:34am

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Serpent

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It wasn't bad, but not as good as this season's been. When the room 23 video started I started to get all giddy, because the version they released on Youtube is so mysterious to me. Then they shut it off as quickly as it started.

I really loved the Sawyer/Locke exchange where Sawyer goes "can't you just turn into smoke and fly over to the other island?" Locke: "If I could do that, why would I be here right now?" Sawyer: "Oh, right, that would be ridiculous." Very funny, but I wonder if they will explain Locke's "abilities" at all.

Also, just started watching "Dexter;" funny that Jacob is the abusive junkie husband.
Posted: Thu, 1st Apr 2010, 1:51pm

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drspin98

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"Dexter"-now you're talkin'!!
Posted: Thu, 1st Apr 2010, 5:42pm

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Aculag

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I definitely expected this week to slow down a LOT compared to last week, but I still enjoyed the episode. The flash-sideways was interesting, and had some nice guests, and parallels. I don't know if anyone else has noticed, but there has been a shot of the main cast member looking at their reflection in every one of those. That's gotta be important.

Damon Lindelof posted on his twitter earlier this week: "One week from now, the conversation will change." So, something tells me we are in for quite a treat next week, probably a game-changing episode. We're in the final stretch now, so there's not a lot of room for downtime.

The situation with Widmore and "the package" is going to be hugely important, I think. Probably to both timelines.

And yes, Dexter is a great show.
Posted: Fri, 2nd Apr 2010, 3:34am

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drspin98

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prediction-Chuck Widmore will turn out to be a "goodie".
Posted: Fri, 2nd Apr 2010, 6:18pm

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FreshMentos

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Does anyone think the "package" could be Desmond? I'm almost positive it's him, but I'm confused as to why he'd be so important...
Posted: Fri, 2nd Apr 2010, 7:35pm

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alienux

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FreshMentos wrote:

Does anyone think the "package" could be Desmond? I'm almost positive it's him, but I'm confused as to why he'd be so important...
I believe that at one point, Faraday did say something about Desmond being special, and that the rules didn't apply to him. Desmond is also able to see into the future, so that may play into things.
Posted: Fri, 2nd Apr 2010, 8:05pm

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Aculag

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Spoilers Within. Don't read this unless you've seen this week's episode!

FreshMentos wrote:

Does anyone think the "package" could be Desmond? I'm almost positive it's him, but I'm confused as to why he'd be so important...
Have you not seen the episode yet? It is blatantly spelled out that he is.

Widmore's people have a map of the electromagnetic anomalies on the island, and they have Desmond. Desmond's "ability" was triggered by the energy beneath the Swan station, so those things are clearly connected. Based on the preview, next week is a Desmond episode, so we'll find out how he plays into things very soon. Like I said earlier, I am pretty sure "the package" (Desmond) is going to be important to both timelines. It's probably going to have something to do with re-triggering his consciousness-shifting ability with the energy pockets.

I'm kinda tired of not being able to talk about the episode until after the UK people have seen it, so why don't we just say, If you haven't seen the current week's episode yet, don't read this thread. That will make things a lot easier, and no one will have to worry about spoiling anything.
Posted: Wed, 7th Apr 2010, 2:20am

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Aculag

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Ugh... me and my double posting.

Just watched the east coast feed, and WOW, that was one of the best of the season, possibly the entire show. I won't go into much detail right now, until someone else checks in, but those of you who haven't seen it are in for a treat. Really great episode.

vvv Agreed. The ending was sheer perfection. And awesome special effects in the beginning.

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Posted: Wed, 7th Apr 2010, 3:11am

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alienux

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Yep, I have to agree. All that I'll say is that from "the" moment with Desmond and Charlie, it just kept getting better and better.
Posted: Wed, 7th Apr 2010, 8:13pm

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Serpent

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WOW. Amazing. First 10 minutes I was "lost" (heh), but after the car scene it just got awesome. I still like Ab Aeterno the best, but this episode was the next best of the season. I am itching to see next week's and see the Charie/Desmond thing develop.

Loved that they brought George back, and Charlie is one of my favorite Lost characters, so that was awesome to see him featured more.
Posted: Wed, 7th Apr 2010, 11:04pm

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I wasn't let down by this, but for a Desmond/Faraday episode (what I would argue are in the top 3 positions along with Ben Linus for intriguing/plot-progressing character) I felt there was a hard bargain to be made in order to be better than Ab Aeterno- and this episode wasn't. But it was close.

A little more meandering after the first half, but still really great. The moment when Faraday starts talking to Desmond on the bench about love and living a fulfilling life, and we get the dolly shot and Michael Giacchino concerto coming in with all the hopeful Lost-y style music.....that's the epitome of the show for me. Those moments of sheer emotion and great acting; that strong, potent, unquestionable sense of importance and meaning in the series.

Only Lost does it, and despite pockets of pedestrian filmmaking and storytelling- the potency of the mythos and achy nostalgia of committing to watching this years-long narrative journey unfold make those moments of climax, of truth and resolve, all-the-more enjoyable.
Posted: Wed, 14th Apr 2010, 2:35am

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Pooky

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I just caught up to the recent episodes in time for today's Hurley one.

Man, just when I thought I was finally getting a grip on what is going on, suddenly they throw that curveball at the very end of the episode. Why the heck would Desmond do that? This season is getting better and better.
Posted: Wed, 14th Apr 2010, 3:11am

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alienux

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I was wondering that, too. The only thing I can think of is that Locke doesn't have a "love interest" from the island to spark his memories of the alternate reality, so maybe Desmond believes that this would cause that to happen for Locke.
Posted: Wed, 14th Apr 2010, 3:47am

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Aculag

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Pooky wrote:

I just caught up to the recent episodes in time for today's Hurley one.

Man, just when I thought I was finally getting a grip on what is going on, suddenly they throw that curveball at the very end of the episode. Why the heck would Desmond do that? This season is getting better and better.
Desmond had a smirk on his face right on impact. I reckon he did it because "Locke" threw him down a damn well in the other universe. Interdimensional revenge is sweet.

But also, the shot of Locke lying on the ground was very very similar to the one of him just after being thrown out a window in The Incident. Maybe he will remember via trauma?

Great episode, by the way.
Posted: Wed, 14th Apr 2010, 6:06pm

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Pooky

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Hmm, maybe it's because Jack works at the hospital?
Posted: Wed, 14th Apr 2010, 8:39pm

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Thrawn

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Desmond = Jacob in the same way Locke = Other Dude. My theory.
Posted: Wed, 14th Apr 2010, 11:54pm

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ben3308

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It doesn't have to do with other characters, like Jack working at the hospital, it has to do with trauma and electromagnetism. A few theories:

Desmond is able to experience both sides of the flash-sideways. This started from the EMP when he got an MRI, and continued fully lucid after the big EMP from Widmore. Locke being hit by a car right near a hospital (that, in true LOST storytelling, Jack works at) means he'll be sent there to get an MRI. Electromagnetic interference in either side of the flash-sideways is something we know affects people - most of them negatively, with Desmond being that exception.

If Locke in the flash-sideways becomes lucid, even partly, of Locke on the island, I don't think he'll have an aneurysm or anything becauuuuuuuuse the Man in Black is inhabiting his body. If there's a contest between real Locke consciousness from the flash-sideways and the Man in Black, this could lead to two results in my opinion:

A. The Man in Black is destroyed, or close to it - he can't inhabit any other body than Locke's. If Locke forces him out, he's stuck and prone to destruction.

B. The Man in Black leaves the island, the world is hence corrupted. He escapes by appearing in flash-sideways Locke following the MRI which we know can cause the lucidity in flash-sideways.

This also mainly works, I think, because of the near-death trauma Desmond causes Locke by just hitting with the car instead of talking him into something. We know that traumas, like the plane crash, can bring on the flashes, and the MRI and Jack being at the hospital is just a slam dunk narratively. Oh, a spinal surgeon for a handicapped man. Convenient.
Posted: Thu, 15th Apr 2010, 1:32am

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Aculag

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ben3308 wrote:

It doesn't have to do with other characters, like Jack working at the hospital, it has to do with trauma and electromagnetism.
It has to do with shared experience between realities. Charlie's trauma was a coincidence, and since he died in the prime universe, he had memories of the island while he was passed out. Seeing Claire on the plane is what jogged his memory. Remember in Greatest Hits, his number one favorite memory was the first time he saw Claire. That's why he remembered, not because he choked on the heroin.

Desmond remembered because he saw Charlie's palm on the glass, not because the car crashed. He remembered Penny because of the MRI. Remember when he turned the failsafe key? His last thoughts when he did that were of Penny.

Hurley remembered because of kissing Libby. No trauma involved there at all. Also, Libby only remembered because she saw Hurley's commercial, and Daniel remembered just from seeing Charlotte eating a chocolate bar (She's not allowed to have chocolate before dinner. wink) So no, trauma and electromagnetism have nothing to do with it, those are just coincidences. The EM room on the island, however, probably made Desmond fully aware of the two realities, and I think because of his meeting with Penny, he's fully aware of it in both timelines.

My theory now for how Locke will remember is that he'll be rushed to the hospital (the only hospital in all of Los Angeles, apparently), and Jack will operate on him (naturally, since he already offered the consultation), and when he wakes up, he'll be able to use his legs again, and THAT is what will make him remember. Not the trauma of being run over, and certainly not having an MRI. Him being run over was obviously important to getting him to remember, but I don't think that's what will do it.

Also, the Man in Black is not inhabiting Locke's body. Locke's body is buried in the graveyard on the island. He's just assumed Locke's form, and apparently has some of his memories. I don't think he is actually Locke, except for looking like him. He's still 100% smoke monster, and I don't think alt-Locke will be able to take over the smoke monster. Although that would make for a pretty crazy scene.

Still hoping Nikki and Paulo show up the alt-timeline. wink
Posted: Thu, 15th Apr 2010, 1:51am

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Pooky

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Jerusalem Jackson wrote:

Still hoping Nikki and Paulo show up the alt-timeline. wink
Hehe yeah, and die horribly razz
Posted: Thu, 15th Apr 2010, 2:08am

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Aculag

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Preferably buried alive.
Posted: Thu, 15th Apr 2010, 6:11am

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Thrawn

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But to expand a little on my theory, we haven't seen anything of Jacob since Desmond's little incident. And why on earth would Desmond just suddenly change his outlook so dramatically? I mean, sure, we could say that he can operate through both realities, but not only is that a little lame, but he's shown no indication in either reality that he can do so. Plus, I'm pretty sure that's why Locke/Black-Dressed-Dude threw him down the well.

Than again, it kind of goes against Jacob's whole "let the humans do it" philosophy, but hey, crazier things have happened. I also really like how Jack's character is evolving bit by bit. I think he's going to have a very very significant role in how all of this plays out.
Posted: Thu, 15th Apr 2010, 6:03pm

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Serpent

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God, yeah, another great episode. I agree with Aculag's theory, but we'll see.

I also liked the title of the episode, obviously named after "Everybody Hates Hugo." In the flashback of that episode, he also musters up the courage to ask out a girl in the good ol' flashbacks. In that episode on the island, Jack also has a moment where he decides to put his trust in Hurley. Good parallels.
Posted: Wed, 21st Apr 2010, 2:16am

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Aculag

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Whoa, another REALLY awesome setup episode this week. It's a shame we have a break next week, but it's going to be worth it. Looks like my theory about Locke is shaping up to be correct. smile
Posted: Wed, 21st Apr 2010, 3:05am

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Pooky

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I thought this episode was actually pretty mediocre. Just a lot of filler stuff with no real conclusions. Just seems like we're working our way to something better. Also, that pilot dude is totally useless, I bet they kill him off razz
Posted: Wed, 21st Apr 2010, 3:29am

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alienux

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I liked this one quite a bit. I thought that Jack's conversation with FLocke at the beginning was pretty satisfying.
Posted: Wed, 21st Apr 2010, 4:51am

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Aculag

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Pooky wrote:

I thought this episode was actually pretty mediocre. Just a lot of filler stuff with no real conclusions. Just seems like we're working our way to something better. Also, that pilot dude is totally useless, I bet they kill him off razz
It was the setup episode to end all setup episodes. There are only four episodes left, and things just started going DOWN right before the end. I have a feeling that the rest of the episodes are going to be straight up awesome all the way through. They've just been getting the puzzle pieces in place for the last few episodes, and I bet there will be one more like that, and then BOOOOOOOOM.
Posted: Wed, 5th May 2010, 2:53am

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Serpent

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SPOILERZ for May 4th's episode

That was some of the best acting in the series. Locke in the flashback, reaction to the death at the end, etc. I hated how they killed off you know who. Like, seriously, after all that? They're just dead? The hell? Always love the smoke monster sounds.

I also feel like the submarine sinking bit was crazy unrealistic in terms of physics, but I have no idea. I love how no one cared about Sayid's death. Ah well. And where the hell is Lapidus?
Posted: Wed, 5th May 2010, 2:56am

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Aculag

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Serpent wrote:

I also feel like the submarine sinking bit was crazy unrealistic in terms of physics, but I have no idea. I love how no one cared about Sayid's death. Ah well. And where the hell is Lapidus?
I love that they were like "DIVE" while they were still docked. smile Great episode, but so sad. Pretty sure Lapidus is dead too, man. He got hit with that door and then the sub sank.
Posted: Wed, 5th May 2010, 5:33am

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FreshMentos

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Oh no... I can't believe this episode. And yeah, acting was phenomenal in Jack and John's roles.
Posted: Wed, 5th May 2010, 6:02am

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Pooky

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Is it just me, or did they elongate all of Season 6 for no reason, and now seem to be starting to throw in major punches that they should have taken their time with? I mean, three of the frickin' main characters since Season 1 died, and it was all so... unceremonial.
Posted: Wed, 5th May 2010, 6:59am

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Aculag

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If you think Jin and Sun's death was un-ceremonial... Well, I think you probably must have been looking away, or something. That was the hardest hitting scene since Charlie died. The shot of their arms underwater, drifting apart... damn.

Sayid was a goner a long time ago. They spent like two whole episodes killing him off, only to be brought back to life by Smokey. His 'splosion death didn't need to be ceremonial. It was heroic, and somewhat a redemption, since he was a zombie for most of the season. And I fully expect there to be even more sudden deaths. There are only three episodes left, after all. They're pulling out the stops.
Posted: Thu, 6th May 2010, 5:28am

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ben3308

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Jack and Locke's parts of this episode, great. Acting all around, great.

I think the whole Jin and Sun exchange was poorly paced and poorly filmed, however. The underwater camerawork is hazy, bad-looking, and wasn't fitting in terms of what we've come to expect from Lost. It's almost one of those things I wish they had seen once filmed, realized mistakes, and decided to re-shoot, even if it meant pushing back dates.

Sayid's I actually cared about more, despite the shitty slow motion and unemotional cut to the bomb exploding - no quarter-second last breath and eyes closing before it explodes, or anything cool/emotional like that. Altogether, I would give writing an A+ for this and the past few episodes, but on the visual storytelling and filmmaking end, it's been really quite weak for the on-the-island parts.
Posted: Thu, 6th May 2010, 6:34pm

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Easily one of my favorite episodes ever this week. I was really surprised at the death of three main characters in one episode, though I doubt that they'll be the last. Jin and Sun's death was, as Aculag put it, the most powerful scene since Charlie's "not penny's boat" drowning death. Very very emotional. I particularly liked the flash sideways scenes this time around as well.

One thing I was a tad bit confused about was how Sayid suddenly turned good all of the sudden, though I suppose he has been that way since he was supposed to kill Desmond? Not to clear on that one. But otherwise, if Lost can produce this kind of writing quality for the remaining few episodes, I would be extremely pleased.
Posted: Thu, 6th May 2010, 7:06pm

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alienux

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Yeah, I think Desmond started Sayid down the path to being good again, and then seeing that MIB had planned on trapping them all along, he realized that he'd been wrong to follow MIB and sacrificed himself to save the rest of them as a sort of redemption. That's what I got out of it, at least.
Posted: Thu, 6th May 2010, 8:16pm

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Aculag

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I think Sayid's heroic death was to show that he wasn't totally evil, and was just being manipulated by Smokey since being resurrected. If you think of his resurrected state as being a clean slate, he would have taken direction from whomever was the first person to talk to him. This is why Dogen told him he had to stab Locke before he said anything, and why MIB told Richard that he had to stab Jacob before he said anything to him. The powers that be on the island are able to coerce people just by talking to them, but it doesn't actually change anything about them, it just enables the one who did the talking to give direction much easier.

But I also think Sayid's turnaround in the end proves Jacob right; that people are not inherently evil, and given the choice to do something good, they will. Sayid was started down that path by Desmond, as alienux said, and being surrounded by his old friends, and a sticky situation involving electronics (something Sayid is very familiar with) allowed him to get over Smokey's manipulation and be himself again, if only for a moment.

I think that's going to be important in the overall scheme of things, just because it proves Jacob right.

Edit: This is post number 108 in this thread smile So I'm just going to edit it to talk about the May 11 episode, Across The Sea.

I was pretty disappointed by this episode until the last 15 minutes or so. It had so much potential, but it was wasted on cheesy dialogue and poor child acting. Definitely my least favorite episode of the season. sad
Posted: Fri, 14th May 2010, 4:58pm

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alienux

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I see we didn't have any talk after Across the Sea, but I have to say that it's one of my top 5 episodes of the series.

Ever since last Tuesday there has been a lot of bickering on Lost sites (especially Lostpedia) about whether or not the episode was any good, but I'm on the side that loved it.
Posted: Fri, 14th May 2010, 9:33pm

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ben3308

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Okay, I don't think Jacob's brother is bad.

I think the Smoke Monster was created by 'man' tainting the golden energy, but that the guy himself was a good, alright guy. We know now that just as he "isn't really Locke", he also probably isn't really Jacob's brother in any of what we've seen from Titus Welliver, just the physical body he chooses to inhabit - evidenced by the 'Adam and Eve' skeletons that remain on the island, and that corroboration with Locke's body being intact (but dead) and the MiB impersonating him.
Posted: Sat, 15th May 2010, 2:54am

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alienux

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I actually believe that evidence in the show points to smokey actually being MIB, just transformed.

-As Flocke, he believes that he was Jacob's brother. He used the phrase "he took my body, my humanity" when referring to Jacob.

-As Flocke, he stated that he had a crazy mother, referring to the "Mother" on Across the Sea that killed his biological mother.

-"Mother" said that going into the cave would not cause death, but would cause a fate worse than death, so even though his physical body died, MIB/Jacob's brother did not die, he just left his physical body, thus becoming smokey.

-Jacob and his brother were not allowed to kill each other because of rules created by "Mother." Smokey was not allowed to kill Jacob (except for the loophole). If Smokey was not Jacob's brother, the rule would not still apply to him.

-There's no internal evidence from the show that there was a smoke entity before Jacob's brother was put into the cave with the source.

-The smoke monster still wants "to go home" which was the desire of Jacob's brother. If it were a smoke monster that just took on the properties of the physical body he's impersonating, John Locke's desire to stay on the island would be a conflict with MIB's desire to leave the island.

So, from evidence in the show, it looks to me like Jacob's brother was thrown into the source only to have his body die and his spirit/essence/whatever become a new entity as the smoke monster. Jacob lays his brother's body to rest with "Mother" before he sees the smoke again, so says "goodbye brother" not knowing at that point that his brother is still alive as the smoke monster. The smoke monster is able to take on the form of dead bodies, including HIS OWN dead body, and that's the body he takes the form of until some point in the future, when he starts taking forms of other bodies, too, until he becomes stuck in the form of Locke.

As far as him being bad, I don't think he was originally, but he did say that the people he lived with after leaving Jacob and their mother were corrupt and greedy, but that he was using them as "a means to an end" which indicates that he was becoming corrupt and greedy. I figure that he must have just become more desperate to get off of the island, and that, along with his belief that all men are evil, has caused him to become the killer he has become.
Posted: Sat, 15th May 2010, 3:07am

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Aculag

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alienux wrote:

-There's no internal evidence from the show that there was a smoke entity before Jacob's brother was put into the cave with the source.
Actually, there probably is. The scene when Ben goes to get "judged", there are Egyptian hieroglyphs down in that room where the smoke monster comes out. According to the producers, the scene when Jacob and his brother are born is 23AD (long after Egyptians stopped using hieroglyphs commonly), so I think the smoke monster is actually as much a part of the island as the glowing light tunnel is, and was there long before Jacob and MIB were born. Their "mother" makes it very clear that they shouldn't go down into that tunnel, and she seemed to know why.

Since that episode was just showing us that the things that happen on the island have always happened, and it goes in cycles, I think there has always been a smoke monster, and maybe it is the souls of the people who have gone down there, and when MIB went down, his soul became the dominant one since it was the last one to go in.

So I see it as being both: Smokey WAS a separate entity until MIB got thrown down the well, and now they are the same.
Posted: Sat, 15th May 2010, 4:16am

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alienux

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Aculag wrote:

The scene when Ben goes to get "judged", there are Egyptian hieroglyphs down in that room where the smoke monster comes out. According to the producers, the scene when Jacob and his brother are born is 23AD (long after Egyptians stopped using hieroglyphs commonly),
The thing about that is that there were also Egyptian hieroglyphs in the frozen donkey wheel chamber. That chamber was dug out by MIB and his people, and there were no hieroglyphs at the time. Mother covered it back up, but the chamber was eventually cleared out and rebuilt (it had to be the same place b/c the wheel was attached to the source when it was finally completed) and the hieroglyphs had to be added at some point thereafter.

It also looks like the temple and the statue, both Egyptian, were created at some point after the events of Across the Sea, which fits in with the addition of the hieroglyphs in the wheel chamber later after Across the Sea.
Posted: Sat, 15th May 2010, 4:59am

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Aculag

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Rating: +1

That's true, but I will offer some counterpoints that support my theory.

Obviously the statue and the temple were both built by Egyptians, but I would argue that the wells have nothing to do with those, and the hieroglyphs in the donkey wheel room were more artistic nods to the past Egyptian presence on the island. The temple and the statue could very well have been built long before the wells were. There were hieroglyphs on the countdown timer in the Swan station too, but that obviously wasn't built by the Egyptians. wink

However, I will say it's still a possibility that the wells were built before the Egyptians arrived, because if turning the wheel makes the island move in time, it could have been turned long after 43AD or whenever it was that MIB and his people were digging, and still brought ancient Egyptians to the island.

I'm also not convinced that the one we saw in Across The Sea was the same well that the Orchid station was built over. We know there are many wells on the island, and the one that Locke fell into seemed a lot deeper than the one MIB was working in. But that's mostly irrelevant.

Anyway, clearly the same people who dug the well that MIB was working on didn't dig the Orchid station well, because they were all killed, and it didn't exist before that.

So yeah, this is kinda rambling, but clearly the island has been around for a long, long time, so I think it's definitely possible that the Egyptians were there way before Jacob and Co., and whoever put the hieroglyphs in the well room did it as an homage to them.
Posted: Sat, 15th May 2010, 5:20am

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alienux

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Aculag wrote:

However, I will say it's still a possibility that the wells were built before the Egyptians arrived
I'll just add one more thing that keeps with what I've said. This is the dialogue from MIB that indicates where the wells came from, which would indicate that the wells were built after 23 AD:

"MAN IN BLACK: There are very smart men among us. Men who are curious about how things work. Together we have discovered places all over this island where metal behaves strangely. When we find one of these sites, we dig. And this time we found something."

This is a direct reference to what MIB was telling Desmond about the wells found all over the island, so the "we dig" would seem to equate to wells being created, and even in ATS, we see the "dig" near the source as a well. This seems like an indication from evidence within the show that MIB and his people were the ones who built the wells, which also would reveal the time they were built.

BTW, even if we don't agree, good discussion.

edit: Meant to comment on more more thing...

Anyway, clearly the same people who dug the well that MIB was working on didn't dig the Orchid station well, because they were all killed, and it didn't exist before that.
Yes, I completely agree about that in general. What my take on where it came from is, is that MIB continued his work of creating the Donkey Wheel at a later point. It was his major task before Mother killed everyone, so it makes sense that he came back at some point and either finished it himself, or had help from someone to finish it, and got the Donkey Wheel successfully in place. He obviously hasn't been able to use it to get off of the island, but others have, and he may still have the chance to use it himself if his current plan were to succeed.
Posted: Sat, 15th May 2010, 6:07am

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Serpent

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Good discussion indeed! +1 that was very enlightening. FANTASTIC episode in my opinion, that was very revealing, very original, beautiful, biblical, epic, ridiculous. That episode felt the most "it's all been leading up to *this*" yet. I personally agree with alienux, but can see how bother could work.
Posted: Sat, 15th May 2010, 6:18am

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Aculag

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My assumption is that he persuaded the next group of people to continue that work, but likely didn't do it himself, since he is a smoke monster now and can make people do work for him. I don't think he's able to use the wheel to leave the island, because he is a part of the energy of the place. That's why he's able to travel underground and pop out of random places around the island: because the energy is all over the place, and he can just zip along the island because of it. That's also why he can't zoom over the water in smoke form.

From what I've heard from interviews with Damon and Carlton, the last two episodes should help shed some light on the energy, and Smokey it/himself. But they also say they want to keep a lot of stuff ambiguous so we get to keep having discussions like this even after it ends, so who knows?

All I know is that I very much look forward to the final two episodes. And if you haven't heard, the finale got extended and is now 2.5 hours. You know at least 30 minutes of that will be commercials, though. Still, looking forward to the conclusion of my favorite show of all time. It's going to be bittersweet.

I just hope it ends with a huge mindf*ck out of nowhere. smile
Posted: Sat, 15th May 2010, 11:44am

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alienux

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Serpent wrote:

That episode felt the most "it's all been leading up to *this*" yet.
I agree. And I've heard (thankfully without spoilers) from some of the attendees of Lost Live who got to see the next episode early that it just gets even better with the next episode.

Aculag wrote:

And if you haven't heard, the finale got extended and is now 2.5 hours.
I was really excited when they announced that. For some reason, this season I've really had this feeling that I wish every episode was 2 hours long. I've always been satisfied with 1 hour episodes in the past (this show and any others), but I've just wanted more Lost all season long and 1 hour each week just hasn't seemed like enough, so I'm really looking forward to the night of the finale.
Posted: Sun, 16th May 2010, 8:54am

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Atom

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Aculag wrote:

My assumption is that he persuaded the next group of people to continue that work, but likely didn't do it himself, since he is a smoke monster now
Thought it was worth mentioning this- since it changes the entire perspective on many parts of the show: MIB isn't the smoke monster and someone evil. The evil guy/smoke monster is a culmination of all the flaws and hatreds of man that inherit the spring at the center of the island. When MIB died, the smoke monster/attributes of evil duplicated his dead body and are guised as him.

His real body, the real MIB, is dead and laid next to 'Mother'. This is the same with Christian Sheperd and Locke- both of whom were dead, had corpses, but were 'duplicated' by the smoke monster.

This makes Jacob's character, to me, vastly more interesting- because he's got to live with the guilt of killing his brother. And the tinge of seeing his dead brother's likeness embody evil incarnate from that spring of light.

I think the smoke monster are the flaws and negative curiousities of man put into some big vicious physical force (aka black smoke) and this force just inherits bodies like MIB. MIB is not bad himself.

At least, that's the revelation I got from this past episode.
Posted: Sun, 16th May 2010, 9:49am

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Aculag

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Atom wrote:

I think the smoke monster are the flaws and negative curiousities of man put into some big vicious physical force (aka black smoke) and this force just inherits bodies like MIB. MIB is not bad himself.
Yeah, this is mostly what I was saying in my earlier post. But obviously MIB's personality carried on in the smoke monster. When I said "He is a smoke monster now" I didn't mean "He turned into a smoke monster", I meant "the smoke monster is using his body". And yeah, MIB himself actually seems like a better person than Jacob does at this point. But I think a lot of the point of this episode was to show that both of these people can be seen as good and bad, depending on who you ask.

But as far as MIB being smokey or not, it's definitely clear that the smoke monster can take on the personality and memories of the person it's taking the form of, so in a way, MIB is the smoke monster. But only in the way that John Locke is now. It has his memories, and his shape, but it also still has the memories of MIB, and his motives as well. MIB wanted to leave the island before he "became" the smoke monster, and that is Smokey's goal still.

So I agree that it is a "culmination of the darkness of man" kind of representation, but at the same time, it must also take on the attributes of the person who it's taking the form of, at least while it's not in smoke form.

I'm hoping that it gets some more explanation in the last two episodes, but even if it doesn't, it's going to be fun to theorize about for a long time! smile
Posted: Sun, 16th May 2010, 9:25pm

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alienux

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I did mean "he turned into a smoke monster." I still stand by that because of the things I previously listed, and because of internal evidence from the show. Obviously his body died, and I believe the "fate worse than death" that Mother mentioned was the loss of that body and the transformation into smokey.

Plus, as far as MIB not being bad himself, I thought he was portrayed as being justified in his actions when I first watched Across the Sea, but later realized that he was just as manipulative, selfish and corrupt as those he was accusing of being that way. He told Jacob that the people he lived with were all of those things (meaning they were bad) and then told Jacob he stayed with them because "they're a means to an end" which is a way of MIB showing that he is using them due to his own corrupt, manipulative and selfish nature. So, I don't think MIB is as good as it felt like he was from the portrayal in the episode.

No matter what, I'm really pumped for the rest of the story.
Posted: Wed, 19th May 2010, 6:41am

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Aculag

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Holy crap. The second to last episode of Lost was simply amazing, and set up the finale perfectly. So many heart-wrenching moments, great reveals, and a whole lot of clarification about a whole lot of stuff. Such a great episode, but bittersweet, because now there are only five days until this show is over for good. Part of me can't wait, and the other part really wants those five days to last a loooong time. sad
Posted: Wed, 19th May 2010, 2:18pm

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alienux

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Yeah, this was a fantastic episode. Favorite parts:

-Hurley's apparent lucidity of both timelines (he recognized Ana Lucia by appearance, so it wasn't just something Desmond had told him about).

-The campfire scene with Jacob and the Candidates.

-The line "It's just a line of chalk on a wall, Kate."

-MIBs response to Ben about why he was walking instead of zooming around as the smoke monster.

-Jack's neck bleeding in the FST (apparently from something in the OT).

-Ben's bruises from being beat up by Desmond in the FST appearing on his face in the OT (although without the blood).

Can't wait until Sunday. Hopefully the rogue Galaxy 15 satellite won't interfere with the broadcast as is being predicted as a possibility....

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/11/galaxy-15-zombie-satellit_n_571519.html
Posted: Wed, 19th May 2010, 4:27pm

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FreshMentos

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Wow, what an episode. Maybe I've just forgotten, but have they still not explained the polar bears? I also want to know why the light at the island's heart is so important, and why it turns people into evil clouds of darkness.
Posted: Wed, 19th May 2010, 4:41pm

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Aculag

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Yeah, the polar bears were on Hydra island in those cages. Part of Dharma's research.

I'm sure they will go into what the light is on Sunday. That has to be what Desmond is there for; to go down into that thing and change it somehow, since he won't be turned into a smoke monster if he does.
Posted: Wed, 19th May 2010, 6:30pm

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alienux

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Yeah, I agree. I'm sure they'll address the light a little more, and hopefully from the perspective of why its important, but not necessarily what it is. I just hope they don't try to give a full explanation for it. I think it needs to have some mystery, kind of like the Force in Star Wars, otherwise I think it will feel cheapened somehow.
Posted: Wed, 19th May 2010, 8:15pm

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Serpent

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The way this is going, I really can't see them cheapening it. This is amazing.

I loved all your favorite parts, and specifically from the fire scenes Sawyer's "why me" line, and Jack/Jacob's exchange. It reminded me of something.
Posted: Wed, 19th May 2010, 9:46pm

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alienux

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Serpent wrote:

and specifically from the fire scenes Sawyer's "why me" line, and Jack/Jacob's exchange. It reminded me of something.
Yeah, I really liked that, too.
Posted: Sun, 23rd May 2010, 6:24pm

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Aculag

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Well, folks... We've come to the end. Tonight is the final episode of one of my favorite shows of all time, and it's bittersweet. One one hand, I am dying to know how it ends. On the other, I want it to last forever. We've known this was coming since mid-season 3, but that doesn't make it any easier to let it go. I've spent a ridiculous amount of time thinking about this show over the last six years; theorizing, analyzing, getting to know the characters, going over screenshots and searching for clues, etc. I've already watched every episode at least twice, and I'm sure I'll be watching it all again when the bluray box set comes out this fall. Basically, I'm a huge Lost fan, and I will miss it dearly when it is gone. It is one of the greatest narrative stories that network television has ever seen, and its characters have had some incredibly satisfying arcs, which will all be wrapped up this evening in a Superbowl-esque event.

Tonight, ABC is running a two hour recap, entitled "Lost: The Final Journey", which will be immediately followed by the two-and-a-half-hour finale, aptly titled "The End", which will be followed by a Jimmy Kimmel special that is sure to be almost as emotional as the finale itself, but also hilarious. Anyone who has seen his previous Lost bits knows that Jimmy loves Lost just as much as any of us do. So we're looking at a five hour send-off, and if you ask me, Lost fully deserves it. Will all our questions be answered? Will Jack defeat Smokey? Will Desmond get everyone to the concert on time? Who will Kate end up with? Does anyone actually care who Kate ends up with? These questions and more, tonight on Lost.

I will be cooking island style fare for my friends and family, who I have traveled to Colorado to visit, and celebrate not only the finale of Lost, but the birth of my sister's son. Coconut shrimp, Chilean sea bass, pork sausages, lumpia, ceviche, mango salsa, a DHARMA logo cake, and plenty of refreshing beer and wine are on the menu. It's an event! I wanted to go all out, and I'm probably going a bit overboard, but whatever, it's the final episode of Lost.

Anyone else have any exciting plans for the finale? I'll be back here later tonight to post my final impressions of this television titan.
Posted: Sun, 23rd May 2010, 7:20pm

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Serpent

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That food sounds fantastic, and the event sounds like a good time. I am SO excited, wish I knew people who watched Lost still that were in town. I will be watching the full event on ABC HD, and I might bring home some island food from the place I work. It's crazy that it's finally going to be over.
Posted: Sun, 23rd May 2010, 10:01pm

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Thrawn

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I'm extremely bummed that Lost is ending, but equally excited to see how it gets wrapped up. I've been watching Lost since the middle of season two, so while I haven't been on board the entire time, I've been obsessing over the many mysteries that Lost has given me for a few years now. Lost has become my favorite television show over the last couple of years, and I'm really not sure what I'm going to do with all the free time I'll have every Tuesday night.

I'm having some other addicts come over tonight and we'll be celebrating the finale over some snacks and dinner. The minutes are passing as if they were hours at this point. Welcome to the end everyone.
Posted: Sun, 23rd May 2010, 11:03pm

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goddard996

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I saw the first episode whilst on holiday in Kenya, 6 years ago! And have followed it ever since. It's been an epic journey and I'm really looking forward to the ending, it's had its highs and lows but overall I think it has been a great TV series. I think the last couple of episodes have really set the scene for the ending and I hope it lives up to my expectations. I'm sure it will.
Posted: Sun, 23rd May 2010, 11:56pm

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FreshMentos

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6 years... Damn. I have never been able to stick with a show until it finally ended. Until now. I remember being a freshman in high school and not understanding why my peers liked the show so much.

On my 15th birthday I got an iTunes giftcards along with an iPod video. I desperately wanted to try the video function on the iPod so I decided to buy the pilot episodes on iTunes. Yeah, I know, I bought a TV episode... But it was worth it! Because I was hooked immediately after.

Ironically, I'm practically the only person out of my peers that even watches the show anymore (they all gave up during season 3). I feel the same way as Aculag, I'm glad everything's all coming together, but sad that it's over. I'd say not only is Lost one of the best narratives on TV, but one of the best narratives period.

I will be attending a small party with the few loyal Lost friends I have. Going to be a memorable evening.
Posted: Mon, 24th May 2010, 1:33am

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Serpent

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FreshMentos wrote:

I'd say not only is Lost one of the best narratives on TV, but one of the best narratives period.
How can you say that if this is your first series you've finished? wink I pretty much agree though, having seen more series than most people ever have.

Aculag, you inspired me to pick up some coconut shrimp for the event. Anyways, I'll post back when the event is over.
Posted: Mon, 24th May 2010, 3:31am

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Bolbi

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Wow.
Posted: Mon, 24th May 2010, 3:59am

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doppelganger

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HOLY SH!T!! What an ending! I thought it was absolutly perfect and this episode had possibly the most badass scene in the entire series when Jack and not Locke went at it.

I was reading some of the the posts on LOSTS' facebook and wow some people don't pay attention to what there watching "I don't f*cking get it" thats alright Joe Bob nobody really expected you to pay attention in the first place... I mean seriously how can you watch LOST for 6 seasons and thats all you have to say after an incredible finale!
Posted: Mon, 24th May 2010, 5:16am

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Aculag

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That was incredible... I'm pretty much speechless. They ended it more elegantly than I thought possible, and left it so open-ended that we'll be able to theorize and speculate about it for years to come. Seriously, everything was handled so well. I have no complaints at all. In my opinion, that was the greatest TV finale of all time, and the perfect ending to such an epic series.

I need to watch it again like right now. I probably won't be able to think about anything else for quite some time. I had a feeling that the very last shot would be what it was, but it was so goddamn emotional. Vincent lying down next to Jack was so beautiful, and the plane flying overhead... Wow. Television has lost one of its shining lights tonight, but it went out with a very bright flash. I couldn't have asked for a better finale.
Posted: Mon, 24th May 2010, 5:40am

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Atom

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I've said it on facebook and I'll say it here: once again the ending reminded us all that even with all the mystery and seeming importance to the island, it's nonetheless all about people. People and their relationships with eachother. Somewhat biblical, and definitely poetic, the ending showed that like human beings the answers to purpose and reasoning in the end aren't important, it's the journey towards that truth that is.

Very beautfully poetic. Not trying to explain too much, not underwhelming. Just.......damn. The first episode of the show aired the night of my first day in high school. Now I'm entering my third year of college. Stuff makes your heart heavy.

Jack's eye dilating, the series closing on the reverse of the same frame it opened with: Just..........damn. Some unanswered questions, but they're futile in the grand scheme of things, and each of those quick 'realization' flashbacks made me remember that. This show is about people, and an astounding number of ensemble cast members that are deeply talented and that I've found myself deeply caring about. This ending cemented all of that.

It wasn't abrupt, it didn't jump the shark, and it wasn't crazy twisty. It just.......was. And I almost cried at the poignancy of this all.
Posted: Mon, 24th May 2010, 6:32am

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Thrawn

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Holy. Sh!t.

I'm speechless.
Posted: Mon, 24th May 2010, 7:45am

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Serpent

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This was the most moving and relatable piece of art I have ever come across, and I feel like I can safely say that nothing will ever top it for me. I don't even want to discuss it with people really, I can't explain it. It was medicinal.
Posted: Mon, 24th May 2010, 9:16am

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FreshMentos

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Serpent wrote:

FreshMentos wrote:

I'd say not only is Lost one of the best narratives on TV, but one of the best narratives period.
How can you say that if this is your first series you've finished? wink
I'll be honest and say I haven't seen too many series to begin with. But I grew tired with most of the shows I have watched and never completed them.


What a superb ending to wrap up such an amazing story. The writers managed to make their final episode their best. It was perfect. I hope there will be a new show that can captivate me as much as Lost has.
Posted: Mon, 24th May 2010, 9:22am

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Simon K Jones

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Interesting, you guys are the first people I've encountered that seem to have liked the ending. Maybe there's some kind of Atlantic divide going on? smile
Posted: Mon, 24th May 2010, 9:27am

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FreshMentos

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Probably.
Posted: Mon, 24th May 2010, 12:43pm

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alienux

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At first I was disappointed. Not disappointed in the ending by any means, but that the characters that I've grown to love over the last 6 years of my life were all dead, but this also wasn't unexpected. The disappointment I felt actually speaks volumes about how incredible the show and characters were.

This is something I wrote on my Lostpedia blog last night, and its just ONE of the many things I took away from this:

"In the last 25 minutes since the show ended, I've been thinking quite a bit. It wasn't until I went to check on my kids (who have been asleep since 8:30) and I saw them sleeping peacefully that something else kind of sunk in. I just realized that right now I'm with the people that are most important in my life (my wife and 2 kids) and that I wouldn't want to be anywhere else. This is what happened to everyone who was on the island. They all died eventually, but ended up being together with the people who were the most important in their lives, and that is a beautiful ending. And for me, I don't have to wait for anything to be with those that I love the most, I can experience that every day right now."

I also read somewhere where someone mentioned how Jack has said in the past "live together, die alone" which I've always taken to mean that if you don't live together and spend time together, you'll die feeling lonely. In what I read, the person was pointing out that they spent this time together building up strong bonds and relationships, and that in fact they were together in death as they had been in life.
Posted: Mon, 24th May 2010, 12:45pm

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Simon K Jones

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My favourite summary so far:

Support Desk: Good morning, Magical Island Support Hotline
Jacob: Hello, my Mum gave me this magical island to look after, and it’s got black smoke coming out of it that’s killing people
Support Desk: Have you tried turning it off and on again?
Jacob: Let me try. . . . . . . .
Jacob: Thanks, worked a treat!
Posted: Mon, 24th May 2010, 2:26pm

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Pooky

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I'm amazed at how many people thought that the ISLAND was purgatory after the finale. I'm also surprised that so many people disliked the finale because it didn't give a clear-cut answer to anything... it's like everyone missed the point.

I'm definitely going to be rewatching this whole series one day, when I feel nostalgic smile I just hope that whatever these guys do next will have a planned story arc.
Posted: Mon, 24th May 2010, 2:37pm

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alienux

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Pooky wrote:

I'm amazed at how many people thought that the ISLAND was purgatory after the finale. I'm also surprised that so many people disliked the finale because it didn't give a clear-cut answer to anything... it's like everyone missed the point.

I'm definitely going to be rewatching this whole series one day, when I feel nostalgic smile I just hope that whatever these guys do next will have a planned story arc.
Agreed, on everything. I'm still reading posts on other sites where people are still saying that "they were dead the whole time" or "the whole island was what was happening after they died." I'm not sure how anyone could come to that conclusion if they paid attention at all.
Posted: Mon, 24th May 2010, 6:57pm

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Aculag

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alienux wrote:


Agreed, on everything. I'm still reading posts on other sites where people are still saying that "they were dead the whole time" or "the whole island was what was happening after they died." I'm not sure how anyone could come to that conclusion if they paid attention at all.
Yeah, I am amazed by how many people seem to have completely missed the point of the finale. But like Carlton Cuse said in the pre-show recap, they didn't want to "dumb down" Lost, and make it something that spells everything out. That's where I think a lot of people got confused. From the very opening shot of the season, when we were shown the island underwater, we were told that the island wasn't important at all to these people, and it was all about their connections to one another. Of course, that didn't become entirely clear until last night, but that was a genius storytelling device.

I've seen so many people saying "why was Penny there? She wasn't even ON the island!" These are the people who missed the point entirely. Also those who wonder why it was only the characters that were in the church and not EVERYONE who remembered their past lives. That was fully explained in What They Died For when Desmond said Ana Lucia wasn't ready yet. And as for Michael, he was trapped on the island. In my opinion, they did a perfect job explaining everything that we needed to know, and left the island mysteries to be mysteries, since no one knew anything about the island, not even Jacob. He and MIB were just some dudes who ended up there, just like everyone else. To me, that was the most graceful way to end the series, and they pulled it off perfectly.

Damon and Carlton spoke about how they fully expected the finale to be divisive and polarizing, and now we see what they mean. It's a separation of those people who "get it", who realize that it was all about the characters all along, and not about the island, and the people who "don't get it", and assume it was all about the island, and that we've been cheated by not having everything explained to us with technobabble. The writers knew where they wanted it to go, and so many people will assume that they copped out in the end by not giving us ANSWERS DAMNIT, but I'm very glad to be one of the people who let them tell the story they wanted to tell, without overblown expectations.

I can't wait to watch the entire series on bluray! smile
Posted: Mon, 24th May 2010, 7:25pm

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ben3308

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Did they cultivate a great episode of television? Yes. It was fitting.

But you know what.........it didn't live up to any expectations that I think anybody who has REALLY been watching Lost wanted. We were all lulled into this finale because it matched up well with what was just, reasonable, and resolute. And it sits right with us now because the episodes leading up to it, and the last season in general, have primed us for such an ending.

But you know what? I would've liked something more. Something deeper, more extreme, more explained, or more earth-shaking. With all we've seen in Lost, with how many times they HAVE taken the cheaper or heavily ambiguous or over-explained way out, they choose not to on the ending. Not a big deal, it was a great episode. I just don't think, if we take Lost in for every episode we've seen, it was the 'conclusion' that I wanted. It was a finale, and an ending. But it wasn't conclusive for me.

Ambiguity is fine. But honestly...........I dunno, it didn't seem like 'greatness' to me. It was like, well, they're in a church, all dead and none of it mattered because it's the times you spend with others that matters. That's nice and simple and poignant, but kind a rudimentary approach - handled decently - for a show that prides itself on being antithetical to rudimentary thought.

More complexity, I think. I feel as if I, myself, could have written this finale of Lost. As in, it's good, acceptable, and at the end I feel good about it. But on second viewing, it's not this intricate, virtuous ending. It's just an ending. Here we have a show wherein characters are deeply and intricately connected; not just because they meet each other in different ways, but because events, life experiences, and even inanimate objects in their lives link them, inexplicably. The ending, it's like.......oh, well they're all meeting at a concert. It all felt obvious and rushed. Oh, Charlie meets Claire. Duh. Juliet meets Sawyer. Duh. I understand it was just one episode of television, but seriously, we've seen better, more artful connections and conclusions in this show before. By a long, long shot.

Also, Jack dying was going to be dramatic no matter what. He's the main character of a large, long-winded series.

I feel like instead of improving on the series with a good ending, they used the causes-and-effects that were already simply tee'd up for them and just hit the ball. It was a good finale, and better than most I've ever seen. But because it's Lost, they know what the expectation is, and they know what they're capable of. I feel the episodes Live Together, Die Alone and Ab Aeterno and Man of Science, Man of Faith were all 100% better than the finale.

And, honestly, the finale, most especially on a show like Lost - where the whole series you know people are counting on a finale - should have been the better, if not best episode. And, in terms of moving me and making me care, this really wasn't. I felt nostalgic and emotional because it was a finale. But not because the episode independent of the finale was that great.

I liked the finale. But.............it was lacking.
Posted: Mon, 24th May 2010, 7:32pm

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Thrawn

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Props to Aculag for summarizing what I couldn't put to words. I'm still pretty shocked by the finale. I've been trying to explain the significants of the final episode to those who didn't get it, but they don't seem to really get it. Their loss, I suppose.

LOST is exactly the kind of thing that inspires me. In fact, I think it's inspired me more than any other type of cinematic experience, whether movies or television. For six years, I was never let down by the writers, a task that every other TV show seems to fail at. The fact that it's ending makes me feel like I'm parting with an old friend and companion. On one hand I'm sad that nothing will ever top the brilliance that is Lost, but on the other hand I feel extremely honored to have been included in the watching of this fascinating story. I don't think I'll ever be able to express my total appreciation for Lost, but I don't really care all that much. Thanks for an amazing adventure Jeffrey Lieber, J. J. Abrams, Carlton Cuse, and Damon Lindelof.

By the way, did anyone else get a kick out of those Target commercials?

Last edited Mon, 24th May 2010, 10:43pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Mon, 24th May 2010, 8:53pm

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Aculag

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ben3308 wrote:

But because it's Lost, they know what the expectation is, and they know what they're capable of. I feel the episodes Live Together, Die Alone and Ab Aeterno and Man of Science, Man of Faith were all 100% better than the finale.
See, this is exactly what I meant by people having overblown expectations being disappointed. I completely disagree, and felt like this was their best finale yet, and if not their best episode, at least in the top three. If you didn't see the conclusive nature of this episode, you missed the point. Every season of Lost has ended with a cliffhanger, and this is no different. It's not an earth shattering mindf*ck, but it leaves the entire series open to interpretation, which is exactly what they have intended for the show all along, and it answers everything that we needed to know to make the story complete.

I take issue with you saying "it didn't live up the any expectations that anybody who has REALLY been watching Lost wanted." This show has been a huge part of my life for six years, and I have watched and rewatched every episode multiple times, and spent a TON of time thinking about it, dissecting it, and discussing it with everyone I know, and I couldn't have asked for a better ending than the one we got. The ambiguity and "incomplete" feeling is what drew me to the show in the first place, and the finale summed that up perfectly. So I am someone who has REALLY been watching Lost from the beginning, and I haven't had any complaints. I see this episode as something that ties up everything that happened gracefully, and without pretension. The only reason I can see that anyone would see it as "lacking" is because they had built it up to be something it wasn't.

So this is what I meant when I said we realize why this episode was going to be polarizing. People like you are going to look at it like it should have been something that it was never going to be, while people like me fully appreciate it for what it is.

Also, Thrawn, you left out Carlton Cuse in your thanks, but kept in J.J. Abrams, even though he hasn't had any creative input since the first season. smile
Posted: Mon, 24th May 2010, 10:43pm

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Thrawn

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Aculag wrote:


Also, Thrawn, you left out Carlton Cuse in your thanks, but kept in J.J. Abrams, even though he hasn't had any creative input since the first season. smile
Carlton Cuse was involved deeply with the project, but I was thanking the actual "creators" of the show. But I agree, he deserves as much thanks as anyone, considering Lost wouldn't be even close to what it is without him. I'll edit my post.
Posted: Mon, 24th May 2010, 11:58pm

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alienux

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ben3308 wrote:

But you know what.........it didn't live up to any expectations that I think anybody who has REALLY been watching Lost wanted.
But that's a broad generalization. I've been REALLY watching Lost since the beginning, and I didn't feel let down at all. I loved it for the complexities that it presented, but I loved it just as much for not dumbing everything down. D&C gave clues to so many answers for those who were not only paying attention, but willing to put thought into what was being shown, and I found that rewarding. I also loved that this show was really about character development all along. The finale has caused me to feel like I've lost some very close friends more than any other TV show or movie has done, and that means that it really worked better than anything I've seen from a character driven story viewpoint. I've not stopped thinking about not only the finale, but the entire show, since last night, and I can see that its going to be something I think about for a long time.
Posted: Tue, 25th May 2010, 6:20am

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Pooky

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Couple questions that I'm hoping somebody has answers to:

What was Widmore looking for on the island?
How did Faraday's mom know everything while in purgatory, and why did she not want everyone to move on?
Why were Keamy, the eyepatch russian dude, and a bunch of other minor characters in the purgatory timeline?
How could Desmond flash into the purgatory timeline when subjected to electromagnetism if he isn't actually dead yet?
What's up with the special MIB-killing dagger given to Sayid?
Why do ashes keep MIB out of the temple?
How come Desmond and Jack weren't turned into smoke when they went into the light?
Why was Walt special?
Why isn't Eko in purgatory?
Why wasn't Ben ready to move on?
Posted: Tue, 25th May 2010, 7:21am

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Atom

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Pooky wrote:

What was Widmore looking for on the island?
Someone to go and pull the thing out that could be subject to an enormous amount of electro-magnetic force, so that MIB would become mortal and he could rid of his evil self in that vulnerable stage. Desmond was this person, and Widmore (being the leader of the others for a long time and knowing about Jacob and MIB quite a bit) knew that he could use Desmond to kill this evil that he had been plagued with guilt to stop ever since Ben forced him off the island. Hence, the sunken fake Oceanic plane, etc. All a rouse to keep things calm and calculated until he could properly strike and finish what (you have to assume) he started in his days long ago as one of the others.

How did Faraday's mom know everything while in purgatory, and why did she not want everyone to move on?
It's simply the consciousness of her in their world of purgatory/heaven. She found herself stuck in it after death, but she was bitter and lonely- and her not having the same collective purpose or importance as the group did to eachother meant once they 'moved on' she would be stuck there, and she'd obviously much rather have the flashsideways continue on forever without any of them realizing and moving on (sort of like finding consciousness in a dream) as if it were real life.

Why were Keamy, the eyepatch russian dude, and a bunch of other minor characters in the purgatory timeline?
Same as Elouise (Faraday's mom) but without the consciousness that she was in purgatory/heaven. Keamy and the like are all minorly important characters in what brought the castaways together. What, essentially, helped make them important to eachother. It's only fitting that in this dream sort of world they'd encounter and be connected through those that they encountered and brought them together/connected in their real lives.

How could Desmond flash into the purgatory timeline when subjected to electromagnetism if he isn't actually dead yet?
Picture it as one of the 'out-of-body' experiences that people who almost drown or get hit by lightning feel in real life. They often say they 'saw/talked to god' or 'felt death', and yet they are still alive. For Desmond, this exact same thing happened. He's immune to EMPs for some mystical reason, and yet the exposure to one causes him to have one of those supernatural near-death experiences- and this makes him conscious to both timelines.

What's up with the special MIB-killing dagger given to Sayid?
I dunno. Just something to add to the mystique and mythos?

Why do ashes keep MIB out of the temple?
Same. Just something to add to the mystique of Lost. Goes without saying, and doesn't necessarily have to be explained.

How come Desmond and Jack weren't turned into smoke when they went into the light?
Because MIB wasn't turned into the smoke monster- the smoke monster turned into MIB. Baring this in mind, if the smoke monster has already found a host- and is incarnating pure evil in that already- then Jack and Desmond going to the light doesn't do anything. And even if it did, you have to remember that Desmond is immune to EMPs and is supernatural in some unexplained way. Him going to the light hurt him, but obviously doesn't affect him in the same way it would someone else. This being said, once he's down there and because he's, for whatever reason, special- him pulling out that drain makes the smoke monster (what I believe to be an incarnation of, like, all the evil in the world/of man) mortal and therefore no one can again become the smoke monster, and the smoke monster can't become anyone him/itself.

Therefore, once Jack goes down, he can't be killed by smokey and/or become him. One because smokey is dead at this point. Two because Jack isn't falling down the waterfall the same way MIB did, and therefore isn't dying/becoming habitable by smokey. And Three because Desmond pulled out the drain and made smokey mortal. At least, that's my convoluted understanding... smile

Why was Walt special?
Because he didn't need those people to find purpose in his life the way the rest of them did, and because he didn't have/find the same profound impact on everyone else as everyone else did on eachother. More or less, his life moved on- he wasn't brought there to find companionship or purpose, and we're actually shown that importance was found later in his life. (When Locke talks to/checks up on him post-island in the episode 'The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham')

This is my understand, again, at least.

Why isn't Eko in purgatory?
Beats me. I believe he should obviously be, and one of the reasons smokey/MIB killed him directly was because of how faithful he was towards the island. I'd like to believe, and have looked for it, that he was in the church in the end- because I believe him to have had an impact on all the rest of them and that to be the most important part of his life. But, obviously, I could be wrong. Or it could be an accidental oversight on the writer's part. Who knows. unsure

Why wasn't Ben ready to move on?
Because he wasn't sure of where he fit in to all of the other survivors, and where his allegiance was. He was ambiguous and confused, but still found contentment and happiness; which I found painfully poetic. You see, here we've got this character that for years and seasons we've tried to understand and read motive-wise and friendship-wise, and there's no clear-cut answer or importance one way or another with Ben. We simply don't know, as viewers, where he found the most importance and purpose in his life. We don't fully understand him.

And I found this to be the best part of the episode. Because he isn't one of the castaways, and he isn't a great and true friend to them all- but obviously he still at some different points had some deep and profound moments with many of them. So where does that leave him? Well, not with the whispering Michael in tortured souls. But no, not with the church meeting/reunion either. Instead, we've got him somewhere right on the fringe of things. An outside observer unsure of where he belongs, albeit happy to be included.

I thought this really summed up Ben Linus, and I absolutely loved how they handled it.
Posted: Tue, 25th May 2010, 8:09am

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Simon K Jones

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Pooky wrote:

Why isn't Eko in purgatory?
Apparently the actor wanted too much money to come back for the episode.

EDIT: Didn't want you obsessives to miss this: http://fxhome.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=42664
Posted: Tue, 25th May 2010, 10:30am

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alienux

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Atom wrote:


How come Desmond and Jack weren't turned into smoke when they went into the light?
Because MIB wasn't turned into the smoke monster- the smoke monster turned into MIB.
One correction on this...it has now been confirmed multiple times that MIB DID turn into the smoke monster. It has been confirmed by Damon and Carlton in interviews, in the recap episode of the Pilot that aired before The End, and by Jacob in the episode What They Died For.

So, that leaves the question about why Jack and Desmond didn't turn into smoke monsters. Desmond didn't because of his ability to withstand electromagnetism. As far as Jack goes, it doesn't seem as clear. There are a lot of theories about this, such as:

-plot oversight
-The light has different effects on evil people than it does on good people, and "Mother's" statement to Jacob about what the light would do was only partially true
-The light is sentient and chooses what fate to give people based on a judgment of their character.

These are all speculation, so I don't know the actual answer. My guess is that the island needed Jack for this purpose, so its affects on him were different because of the sacrifice Jack made to fulfill that purpose.
Posted: Tue, 25th May 2010, 11:17am

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Atom

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alienux wrote:

So, that leaves the question about why Jack and Desmond didn't turn into smoke monsters. Desmond didn't because of his ability to withstand electromagnetism. As far as Jack goes, it doesn't seem as clear.
This was really simple. Desmond can withstand it- okay, boom. He doesn't turn bad. He then pulls out the drain cork, and all the light disappears. Now the place turns MIB mortal and doesn't have the same effect. Okay, boom. Things are different.

Now Jack comes down, but there's no light. Okay, boom. So he doesn't turn into a smoke monster because the light has drained. So he replaces the drain and the light returns. Why not now? That's pretty simple too by two trains-of-thought:

He didn't die. MIB died falling down that waterfall and was resurrected as evil (much in the same way, I believe, that Sayid was). Jack simply climbed down, he didn't die in the light. Therefore, he couldn't become the smoke monster in the same way MIB did.

OR- things have simply changed. Desmond taking the drain out and Jack replacing it caused a master 'reset', and now things just simply aren't the same. Things works along the same lines of 'fate' and 'redemption' that people say 'the island wanted Jack for something else' get at.

Either conclusion pretty much works and is sound.
Posted: Tue, 25th May 2010, 2:11pm

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alienux

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I don't know that I would say its a really simple answer (you even have two possibilities listed, which would discount simpleness), but I do agree that either of the two explanations you give could be possible and are sound possibilities, along with the possibility that Jack's good nature vs. MIB's evil nature could have been a difference maker, too.
Posted: Tue, 25th May 2010, 7:03pm

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ben3308

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Atom wrote:

Why do ashes keep MIB out of the temple?
Same. Just something to add to the mystique of Lost. Goes without saying, and doesn't necessarily have to be explained.
This was one of the most obviously explained answers through exposition.

The Man in Black couldn't touch Jacob. Ever, really. They were Jacob's ashes. As long as 'Jacob' is present around a person or place, the Man in Black can't touch it.
Posted: Wed, 26th May 2010, 12:46am

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Serpent

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Also one thing about Faraday's mom/Eloise is that she is a somewhat "special" character for whatever reason. She appeared to Desmond in season 3 before Charlie died as the jewlery store owner telling him what he must do and that death was inevitable when the time comes. She's a character who is "in the know" for whatever reason, just as much as Jacob or Alpert or someone. She was on the island for a LONG time, so that has something to do with it.

I obviously can't give an exact explanation, but that may help a little. Maybe someone else has a little more insight on Eloise. The Lostpedia article goes into more detail about here "in the knowingness" about time and such: http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Eloise_Hawking
Posted: Wed, 26th May 2010, 2:34am

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Aculag

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She had Faraday's journal since 1977. That is the best explanation for how she knew things. How she knew what Desmond was up to in the sideways is another story...
Posted: Wed, 26th May 2010, 12:10pm

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jotoki

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let me just make sure I got this right before I comment on the finale. The island was real and they did survive the crash lived out their lives as we saw and beyond.

The alternative reality had them all dead but not knowing it, but given the quote "there is no now here" time wasn't linear there. This explains why those alive on the island as we left it could be dead in the alternative reality. Am I right or miles out?
Posted: Wed, 26th May 2010, 1:42pm

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alienux

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jotoki wrote:

let me just make sure I got this right before I comment on the finale. The island was real and they did survive the crash lived out their lives as we saw and beyond.

The alternative reality had them all dead but not knowing it, but given the quote "there is no now here" time wasn't linear there. This explains why those alive on the island as we left it could be dead in the alternative reality. Am I right or miles out?
That's about it. Everything that happened over the course of the show was real, and "whatever happened, happened." Jacob, MIB and Mother were real, Jack and the losties really crashed and lived on the island and traveled through time, and Jack really died on the island after defeating MIB. The FST was a place outside of time that they all ended up together when they had all died (in other words, Kate, Hurley, Ben, ect. lived out their days after Jack died, but they came together in the FST with Jack and those who had died before the finale).


Edit: After writing this, I found a new blog post on Lostpedia that linked to a post that is from someone claiming to be one of the writers from Bad Robot. There's no way to know if the author really is from Bad Robot, but what he says is pretty compelling and worth reading:

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/The_End/Theories#Ending_Explanations_Posted_by_Writer_From_Bad_Robot
Posted: Wed, 26th May 2010, 10:12pm

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Serpent

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Cool link. That "spike in brain activity" that leads to spiritual experience is the release of the chemical Dimethyl tryptamine in the brain. DMT is attributed to near death experiences, dreams, and even "alien abductions."

In synthetic form, DMT can be smoked, ingested, or injected and evokes a 20 minute to 6 hour long "trip." It is considered the most powerful hallucinogenic drug on the planet, and almost EVERYONE who tries it report very very very similar experiences, and they are all similar to Jack's death scene in the finale of Lost. The feeling of oneness with the people you love, people report seeing some kind of "deity" who often "words" things very much like Christian Shepard did in the church.

Locke's island hallucinogen that he brewed in earlier seasons is very similar to extracted DMT (it's found in a LOT of plants). If you aren't familiar with DMT, you may have heard of Ayahuasca, which is a DMT brew of the Shamanistic culture of South America.

I'm devoting my life to the study of hallucinogenic chemicals, so I find this "explanation" fascinating. When I saw that scene, I "knew" that's what was being referenced (even if it wasn't, I don't know the writer's intentions). It took my breath away. When I said earlier in this thread that an event on one of the last episodes of Lost "reminded me of something," this was what I was referring to. That's why I was so satisfied, it's the ending I wanted to happen. If you're interested in these experiences, check out some reports on http://erowid.org


Though in Lost terms, I think the alternate timeline would be Jack's "trip" and he survived the crash and island obviously (to me) happened. Whether the trip is "real" religiously or whatever is really up in the air in my eyes. I didn't pay attention to what Jack was wearing, I'll have to analyze that a bit more (as Aculag said, we could be analyzing this show for a while).
Posted: Wed, 26th May 2010, 10:23pm

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ben3308

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Except for, I don't think the ending was 'hallucinogenic', I think it was definitely spiritual.... neutral
Posted: Wed, 26th May 2010, 10:25pm

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Serpent

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Who's to say a DMT experience isn't spiritual...? neutral I don't really know what you're getting at. I'm not saying Jack got hurt and dropped some acid tabs then died, I'm saying a chemical was released in his brain that induced the experience at the time of death. That's MY theory, and that happens in real life.


(Also, I didn't read the Bad Robot part, I read the previous theory, that's where the link jumped to when I clicked the link in my browser. I'll have to check them all out).
Posted: Wed, 26th May 2010, 10:29pm

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drspin98

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Didn't so much "dislike" the ending, just very disappointed. To me the show was not about people, tbut the great plot turns and questions. I really didn't care about anyone but Ben and Eko and Syiad. Surely not that annoying Claire with the ridiculous wig this year. I didn't give a tinker's cuss about the Korean couple either, and Desmond with all that "brother" stuff got a lilttle old.

For a show that took so many crazy turns throughout the years, the ending was too "easy".

And don't get me started on the commercials. They basically took a two hour show and added 30 minutes of ads-making it a 2 1/2 hour show. We timed the show to ad minute ratio and during hour 2 it was 1 to 1!!!
Posted: Wed, 26th May 2010, 10:33pm

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ben3308

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Serpent wrote:

I'm saying a chemical was released in his brain that induced the experience at the time of death. That's MY theory, and that happens in real life.
What a cold, clinical way to look at things. Clearly, because the whole flash-sideways was a quest to find meaning, it wasn't some clear-cut chemical-driven experience in the brain. It was other-worldly and spiritual - they ended up in a church, for Christ's sakes!

I'm not trying to insult you and your 'research', but I very very very very much doubt that the creators of Lost intended the whole flash-sideways to be the results of a near-death spike in brain activity, resulting in a psychedelic trip. Rather, I'm pretty certain they spelled it out as an after-death spiritual experience in whatever you want to equate to religious 'limbo'.
Posted: Wed, 26th May 2010, 10:41pm

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Serpent

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I don't see it as necessarily clinical. I believe DMT could be a gift from God, or a clue from God (I'm agnostic, so I believe that there *could* be a God).

And when you take a high enough dose of DMT, you can go to a church in your head, I'm not kidding. Your hallucination truly takes over your vision. People think they get abducted by aliens and describe it in ridiculous detail, people have dreams. That's DMT. Have you not read anything about the counter culture? A LOT of people find the hallucinogenic experience *legitimately* spiritual (even man-made drugs like LSD and research chemicals). So do Native Americans. So do tribes in South America. So do some Eastern cultures. It's a fairly common and popular belief. I don't care if you agree with it or believe it or what have you.

And honestly I don't care what the writers of Lost intended, it's what it means to ME based on my experiences. People have different interpretations of things, even if the artist intended something else. This is most common in music and religious studies.
Posted: Thu, 27th May 2010, 3:00am

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alienux

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The Lost Season 6 DVD set will contain an epilogue to the show, apparently focusing on Hurley and Ben's time on the island.

Link
Posted: Thu, 27th May 2010, 4:50am

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Thrawn

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Serpent wrote:


And honestly I don't care what the writers of Lost intended, it's what it means to ME based on my experiences. People have different interpretations of things, even if the artist intended something else. This is most common in music and religious studies.
Sure, that can be your interpretation, but I'm fairly sure the writers of Lost intended it to be more on the spiritual side. You could say that you interpret the Mona Lisa as a dog, but it doesn't change the fact that it's a person. wink Sure, some of the ending is left up to interpretation, but not to that extent. They meant it to be spiritual, not physical, which DMT is more of. (Definition of Spiritual: of or pertaining to the spirit or soul, as distinguished from the physical nature)
Posted: Thu, 27th May 2010, 5:32am

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Atom

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This is funny we're even mentioning this- since the show was very much a 'man of science versus man of faith' conundrum- and since, as is fairly evident, faith is what ended up winning. As evidenced in the 'moving on', Jack letting go of his stigma with the island, Jack accepting that Locke was correct, Jack dying, and basically anything else Jack (the 'man of science') ended up doing by the end of the series.

Not to insult Serpent in any way, it's just rather humorous that we're discussing how spirituality itself can be seen as something scientific (aka DMT) in the scope of the show. I dunno, to me that sort of.........defeats the point. Defeats overarching theme. Science/Faith.
Posted: Thu, 27th May 2010, 5:46am

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ben3308

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It's the risk that one takes with having faith that makes 'faith' unique. I'm happy agnostics are open to interpretation on many things, but I think in the case of Lost, you can't say "well, chemically, it may have been this" because..............well, no, it wasn't. Jack began as a man of science, and ended as a man of faith. That was one of three core mantras of the show.

It was faith that ended up fulfilling him as a person, and faith created the contentment that the finale brought forth. It was ambiguous and risky efforts in things unknown - Christian or otherwise (aha! literally!) - that were the final thesis of the show. Jack's ability to trust others and himself, without any real guarantees, are what make his character so evolved and complex, and what gives meaning to the final scene with his father in the narthex.

Jack, as my brother mentioned, was ultimately able to have faith in things: Jacob, the island, his friends, Desmond, the golden light - all of which were rewarded with him dying in peace (seeing the plane leave, and the dog at his side) and returning to heaven (or spiritual contentment, whatever) alongside his friends.

The other thing that furthers this was that John Locke was always 'in the right' whenever he existed as a man of faith, and 'in the wrong' when he didn't - when he stopped believing in the power of the island, and broke the computer, Desmond had to go turn the failsafe key. When he was resurrected by the MIB, he had no faith in Jacob or the containment of evil or, more specifically, people.

Faith was probably the core theme of the show, actually - most especially towards the end. Jacob continually had faith in people, and the Man in Black believed the opposite, that people would always be corrupt. Jacob's faith in people extended to the survivors of Oceanic 815, which is why they crashed on the island in the first place, and to Desmond, and to Jack's follow-through in 'doing the right thing' in the end.

So yeah, you could say that it's this scientific process going on in his head and that's what it 'means to you' - in fact, that's probably how you substantiate all religious experiences, and is why you're agnostic - but that's not what Lost was about, regardless of 'what you think'. It was spiritual, and faith-based, because faith is active and is a conscious action that one must hold and perform. That's what makes it important, and that's what makes the causes and effects in Lost important. The balance of faith, trust, and the human condition are all notions that change according to human action, and because it is something we do means it's not something that could be caused simply by a chemical trip, not least in the context of the television show.

Narratively, that doesn't make sense. If Jack is just going to die and have a DMT release that leads to the experience of the flash-sideways, what is the point? Why is that important? Would that not happen if he died anyway, without having had faith or done anything of meaning? I think it would. Which brings me to the assertion that the ending is indeed spiritual, indeed faith-based, and indeed not closed-ended enough to be pared down to a scientific, chemically-linked explanation.

The church was spiritual. An afterlife encounter. Not chemical, hallucinogenic, or a 'trip'. Come on, now. biggrin
Posted: Thu, 27th May 2010, 7:22am

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Serpent

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I see what you guys are saying, I just find the phenomenon fascinating and that's just how I related to the ending. And I find the whole uncertainty of life in general fascinating as well.

Thrawn wrote:

Serpent wrote:


And honestly I don't care what the writers of Lost intended, it's what it means to ME based on my experiences. People have different interpretations of things, even if the artist intended something else. This is most common in music and religious studies.
Sure, that can be your interpretation, but I'm fairly sure the writers of Lost intended it to be more on the spiritual side. You could say that you interpret the Mona Lisa as a dog, but it doesn't change the fact that it's a person. wink Sure, some of the ending is left up to interpretation, but not to that extent. They meant it to be spiritual, not physical, which DMT is more of. (Definition of Spiritual: of or pertaining to the spirit or soul, as distinguished from the physical nature)
Again, I see what you are saying with the literal religious spirit, as in beyond the physical. I just don't see things that way. To me, if there is a life after death, that's when a spirit would come into play. But the moments before Jack closes his eyes are more physical rather than metaphysical. I just see it as a form of "divine intervention," that's how I view DMT in some respect, and I take my beliefs very seriously. I can interpret the death experience in that way if I want to. Again, you don't have to. Comparing my interpretation to interpreting a still visual painting of a woman as a canine is ridiculous and insulting to me. I know that's not what you intended though, so no hard feelings. I used "music" as an example, because people DO interpret songs in many many different ways (this applies to any medium of art really) regardless of what the artist intended (a lot of artists will not tell the media what their music is about specifically, lyric-by-lyric. That would take some of the appeal out of the music listening experience.) Most artists appreciate the fact that people can have different takes on their work. It's not like I believed something that simply isn't depicted in the show or anything (like the dog/Mona Lisa comparison). But with something as ambiguous as Lost, it really doesn't matter how you see it.


And I can't stress this fact enough, but I view DMT as faith. Just because it's a chemical doesn't make it absolutely scientific. It's a very very mysterious chemical. It's nicknamed "The Spirit Molecule" for God's sake. Continue the science vs. faith discussion or interpretations, but stop saying things like "The church was spiritual." I am well aware of that, and I totally agree. I know you guys keep saying "I don't mean to insult you," but I don't do that when people bring up THEIR religions in discussions. And mind you, I don't feel insulted, just completely misunderstood really. I think it has a lot to do with the portrayal of "drugs" in our society, which is very scientific indeed. The portrayal of the human body, even, is scientific. All of our emotions and experiences can be attributed to chemicals in the brain. A very scientific concept. But the word "scientific," to me, in the end, is very irrelevant. That's how I see the world, get over it. Clearly other people do too, look at the wiki article section I was referencing, the one before the "Bad Robot" description. That "spike in brain activity" is dimethyl tryptamine.
Posted: Thu, 27th May 2010, 7:34am

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Simon K Jones

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Hm, sounds like the show focused on characters and being spiritual and deliberately ambiguous at the end, then?

Which is a shame, as it means I probably won't bother watching the rest fo the show (I've only seen up to about halfway through season 3).

For me, the show was interesting because of the central mystery. The whole point of watching it was to find out what was going on, and have it explained to some degree. I'm not interested in the characters, specifically because the characters seemed a bit rubbish to me - vague, totally enslaved to the whims of the plot, and generally unlikeable. So really, an ending that focuses on the characters is of no interest to me.

(Hurley being the exception, obviously)

sad
Posted: Thu, 27th May 2010, 7:41am

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ben3308

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Serpent wrote:

Well-posed rhetoric
I should say, what I think the flash-sideways wasn't simultaneous with Jack dying, it was all after death. As in, the people on the island and the timeline with which the flashes were presented were irrelevant - it was 'after death' the whole time, one after-the-fact story being told the same time as the present story. So really the 'flash-sideways' was a flash-forward to after death.

And, because it's after-death, it's not this near-death chemical release. It's an afterlife experience. That's what I was getting at, that it's ludicrous to attribute it to chemicals in the first place because those don't happen when someone is........dead. Me mentioning 'faith' wasn't the same as spirituality or religious belief, I meant it in the literal term of faith - an unwarranted trust in someone or something else for the sake of larger things. DMT has nothing to do with faith, it affects everyone in some small instance. So, too, does the love of Jesus Christ in my opinion, but again - that doesn't mean one has faith.

It's a conditional statement to me. If existence is human, then DMT experiences and love from higher being. But also if faith, then spiritually-linked experiences.
Posted: Thu, 27th May 2010, 7:54am

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Serpent

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Ah ok, so you can see how my interpretation *could* apply to someone with my belief system given my other interpretation that the "flash sideways" was during Jack's death? That is left ambiguous (and I hope some writer doesn't just explain it, what's the fun in that?). And I see exactly what you are saying about faith. I agree, DMT is not faith, because I do not fit the description of someone who has faith. Well-posed rhetoric right back at ya'. wink
Posted: Thu, 27th May 2010, 8:25am

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Atom

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Tarn wrote:

Hm, sounds like the show focused on characters and being spiritual and deliberately ambiguous at the end, then?

Which is a shame, as it means I probably won't bother watching the rest fo the show (I've only seen up to about halfway through season 3).
How pathetically snobby and sad.

Lost is pretty widely-considered a great show and (arguably) one of the best (if not the best) of the decade. Even people like Ben, who I have been in clashing with for years with trying to get latch onto the series completely, has stated the brilliance of it retrospectively now that it's all panned out.

To let an assumption based on a handful of (overwhelmingly positive, too) reviews here throw you off of watching the series entirely is not only short-sighted, it is.....once again.........just sort of sad. It'd be a terrible shame, considering my limited-but-still-existent knowledge of your entertainment tastes/tv palette. Lost (in its entirety) would seem to me to be right up your alley.

Yes, it ends up about the characters. It's always been about the characters. If you don't like them, I suppose that's fine- but don't get all sad and 'oh, well, I guess I'll stop watching' because you find out the ending isn't just about spoilers and the island. It's always been about the journeys and relationships of the character. Isn't that, as a writer, what drives your writing?

I dunno, that sort of response just makes me scratch my head. I mean, how can you not like Daniel Faraday Or Desmond? Or Mr. Eko? Or Jin? I mean, you have to give Lost one thing- if you don't like a character, they bring in one you're sure to love soon enough. (Ana-Lucia - Mr. Eko wink)
Oh, and nice response Serpent. Intriguing, really.

Last edited Thu, 27th May 2010, 8:30am; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Thu, 27th May 2010, 8:30am

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Simon K Jones

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What on earth are you gibbering about, man?

It's got nothing to do with religious aspects. I have no problem with spiritual shows. The Battlestar Galactica ending was massively spiritual and ambiguous and I loved it (even though lots of people didn't).

My point was that the specific aspects that interested me about Lost don't seem to be the ones they chose to focus on as the show developed. I'm not criticisng the show or the people that like it, I'm just saying it's not a route that interests me personally.

Anyway, Lost was absolutely my thing, I loved the first season. The shoddy writing in the second season put me off, though, and even though season 3 was an improvement it didn't get me back into it.

This is fine. It doesn't prevent you from watching and liking the show.

I get the feeling you've had a kneejerk reaction here and assumed I was somehow being anti-religious, even though I wasn't. You're projecting, dude. If anybody's being snobby, it's you.

Edit: I see you've removed your random religious rant from your post. Sneaky.

Also, Jin and Eko were indeed cool characters. But I didn't like having to sit through 20 episodes about dull characters to get to their episodes. smile

Last edited Thu, 27th May 2010, 8:32am; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Thu, 27th May 2010, 8:30am

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Atom

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Had multiple tabs open, muddled my thoughts together. Apologies- post has been amended, you caught me too early! wink My points still stand with giving up on the series, though. It's equally as maddening, since I find the show one of the best examples of great character writing that is engrossing and accessible.

EDIT: Also, the moment after I sent I realized you'd probably cite precedence with the BG finale. smile

Last edited Thu, 27th May 2010, 8:32am; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Thu, 27th May 2010, 8:32am

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Simon K Jones

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OK, fair enough. smile
Posted: Thu, 27th May 2010, 8:36am

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Atom

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Please. If it's not a Jin episode, it's a Desmond episode. If not him, it's a Daniel Faraday one (the best character- stick through it, you'll get there). And if not him, it's Ben Linus. Or Richard Alpert. (Please just watch the Nestor Carbonell episode called 'Ab Aeterno' to see what I mean. It's entirely flashback, spoils very little, and is absolutely amazing.)

And this is, of course, also discounting all of the decidedly 'dull' characters that also happen to be well-liked by audiences, still expertly-written, and sharply-acted. Like Jack, Locke, Hurley, Kate, etc. Which is a testament to how well the show and its writing work- when even well-written, well-acted, likable characters fall at the wayside.

Also: Second season is the best one besides this last season! What have you been watching? Do me a favor and just skip everything but the highlights of season 3 and you'll move into Faraday/Desmond-centric time-travel-ville. You'll like that, I guarantee it. smile
Posted: Thu, 27th May 2010, 12:10pm

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alienux

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Serpent wrote:

(Also, I didn't read the Bad Robot part, I read the previous theory, that's where the link jumped to when I clicked the link in my browser. I'll have to check them all out).
Somebody removed the body of text and just put a link to the original form post on SpoilerTV. The direct link that that (rather than to another link that takes you there now on Lostpedia) is:

http://www.spoilertv.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=19342&start=0
Posted: Thu, 27th May 2010, 12:51pm

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alienux

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Atom wrote:

Please. If it's not a Jin episode, it's a Desmond episode. If not him, it's a Daniel Faraday one (the best character- stick through it, you'll get there). And if not him, it's Ben Linus. Or Richard Alpert. (Please just watch the Nestor Carbonell episode called 'Ab Aeterno' to see what I mean. It's entirely flashback, spoils very little, and is absolutely amazing.)

And this is, of course, also discounting all of the decidedly 'dull' characters that also happen to be well-liked by audiences, still expertly-written, and sharply-acted. Like Jack, Locke, Hurley, Kate, etc. Which is a testament to how well the show and its writing work- when even well-written, well-acted, likable characters fall at the wayside.

Also: Second season is the best one besides this last season! What have you been watching? Do me a favor and just skip everything but the highlights of season 3 and you'll move into Faraday/Desmond-centric time-travel-ville. You'll like that, I guarantee it. smile
Yeah Tarn, I have to agree with just about everything Atom said here, especially about Faraday and Richard. They ended up being two of my all time favorite characters, very closely followed by Eko, Locke, and Ben (and of course Hurley from the get-go).

I'd also like to comment on the revealing of answers to the mysteries that you mentioned earlier. I think there are a lot of misunderstandings about this. There were a lot of fans that wanted answers to some of the most minuscule things on the show (the pallet drops, what happened to Ben's girlfriend Annie who appeared in one episode in a flashback, etc..), but none of those that most people are complaining about were really central to the overall mystery of the island. I think that all of the important mysteries were answered pretty well, but it was not done in a checklist style or with a character who shows up and says "Well, here's what this meant, and here's what this meant." It was done through storytelling by giving enough information for the viewer to figure it out, and some of the answers were more like "the Force" in the original Star Wars trilogy. They did answer why the island was important, and what made it important, but they didn't try to give a made up contrived answer of how it came to be that way.

For example, Luke Skywalker is able to levitate objects, read thoughts, etc. How does he do it? Its because of the Force. Did we ever get an explanation about the Force in the original trilogy? No, and nobody questioned it because it was mysterious and romantic.

Back to Lost....why are people brought to the island, what gives the island its power, why is it important that the island be protected? All of these things were answered clearly and plainly, but the answer was kind of like the Force analogy. We find the answers to those questions, but the reason that the island is this way to begin with is left mysterious and romantic, rather than being given an explanation that wouldn't really satisfy anyone.

So, if you were a die hard "I want to know what the Hurley Bird was" or from season 5, an "I have to know who Juliet shot in the outrigger while flashing through time" type of fan, then you'd be disappointed. But, if you're able to watch the show and put the pieces together, you'll have the answers to the biggest questions from the show, but you'll also see that some answers tell you the why (and sometimes the how), but (thankfully) without lame explanations that wouldn't satisfy anyway.

And I agree, you at least need to watch Ab Aeterno (and I'd add Across the Sea, which I loved, but that episode had its haters, too). Both of those episodes deal a lot with the history and mythology of the island and even though they don't focus on the main characters from the 815 crash, they were two of my all time favorite episodes (other than maybe The Constant).
Posted: Thu, 27th May 2010, 1:06pm

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Simon K Jones

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alienux wrote:

Yeah Tarn, I have to agree with just about everything Atom said here, especially about Faraday and Richard. They ended up being two of my all time favorite characters, very closely followed by Eko, Locke, and Ben (and of course Hurley from the get-go).
I don't think Faraday and Richard were in the episodes I've seen. Eko I really liked but they killed him off really quickly, while Locke was awesome at first but ended up going through some rather arbitrary character switches later on that made little sense and reduced his appeal. Character development and change I like, but when it happens purely to serve the needs of the plot it becomes annoying.

For example, Luke Skywalker is able to levitate objects, read thoughts, etc. How does he do it? Its because of the Force. Did we ever get an explanation about the Force in the original trilogy? No, and nobody questioned it because it was mysterious and romantic.
The Force it was set up to by mysterious and romantic from the start, though, so in that setup it made perfect sense for it to be ambiguous. In fact, that's why people objected to the more scientific explanation in the prequels - it wasn't appropriate.

Lost, on the other hand, set up its mystery as something specifically to be uncovered and explained, so going doing the vague mystical route could frustrate me.

I may still check out the series if it gets really cheap on blu-ray one day, who knows. smile
Posted: Thu, 27th May 2010, 1:30pm

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alienux

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Tarn wrote:

The Force it was set up to by mysterious and romantic from the start, though, so in that setup it made perfect sense for it to be ambiguous. In fact, that's why people objected to the more scientific explanation in the prequels - it wasn't appropriate.

Lost, on the other hand, set up its mystery as something specifically to be uncovered and explained, so going doing the vague mystical route could frustrate me.
I understand where you're coming from, but as an example, I'm not sure that the answer to "how did the island come to be and how was its power created in the first place" was ever set up as a mystery to be explained. I've always wondered what the source of the island's power was, and what its history was, and I think those questions were set as mysteries to be answered. And although I wonder how it came to be, I don't know that I think the writers' intentions were ever to dissect the origins of the island's source of power, but rather to show the source and explain why the source is important. Those were always the questions I had from the beginning, and they were answered very well.

Either way, if you do decide to watch the rest of the series, maybe knowing some of the approach will help make the experience better.
Posted: Sat, 29th May 2010, 8:23pm

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jotoki

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The opinions expressed below in npo way reflect those of anyone else nor are they meant to. attacking me becuase I dont' share your opinion wont change mine wink

Well given I was right about what the two ending were, I can now say that I was dissapointed. Not because as some assume that I was expecting the island to be explained (I'm glad they didn't try) or because I was expecting a massive finale (though given it's been six years I had a right to expect something big I think) nor even because I wanted it to be about a big fight explosions etc. Give me a good story with good charaters any day over that. It's because of them going down the wishy washy metaphysical route that just didn't make sense for me.

Dont get me wrong Overall I've loved the show and the final season has had it's moments but for me they have been too few. I was expecting more of the flash sideways or whatever you want to call it. Felt that MIB Locke becoming mortal at the end just in time for Jack to kill him was a bit clumsy. In fact the whole of the final season on the island at least has felt clumsy and full of things just tossed in to make the plot work rather than to move it forward. The people in the temple are case in point. What actually was the point of them? They seemed just there for Locke to kill and get his followers who then themselves were killed. Most of the great moments have been surrounding Desmond, one of the few consistent characters thorughout.

I agree with Tarn that the characters especially Locke were too prone to change to suit the plot direction. This is something we've discussed at work after many an episode.

For me, seasons one and two great, season three felt like a filler and horror of horrors I almost stopped watching at that point, how lame and sad of me wink, Four and five , great. Six has been fairly weak for me. I just don't go with the spiritual stuff. Especially when it was clearly a bolt on just to allow for the ending in the church when so so much more could have been done with it. even the guy at work thats easily impressed with Lost when others of us are less so thought the finale was a bit on the lame side.

Perhaps it is a UK/US divide. It does seem a lot of US sci fi insists on going down the religious or spiritual route (call it what you will) as if thats all that defines us as human, or not in the case of BSG. Think of something else american Sci Fi writers!

So in the end while it has been something I've really enjoyed watching and looked forward to the new seasons coming each time, I can't say I share somes idea that it's great writing. At times it has been great but also it's often felt a bit directionless and that the needs of the plot have driven the characters to do things that just didn't fit.

In the end though I remain a fan and always will be So perhaps flawed genius is a good way to describe it, in my book at least. The fianl season pulls a show I would have given five out of five to and brought it down to a four.

I'm sure plenty will disagree wtih me about this and thats fine. It's just my opinion. I'm hard to please, what can I say wink