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Kanye West's 30-Minute Music Video - 'Runaway'

How full of win is this?

Totally win.44%[ 4 ]
Full to the max.56%[ 5 ]

Total Votes : 9

Posted: Sun, 24th Oct 2010, 7:09pm

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Atom

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Basically, it's fantastic.

It's a 30 or so minute-long 'mini-movie' music video he's been working on this year; whilst releasing all the tracks (and more) than it for free on his website every Friday for the past several weeks. Watch it above, through his website, or here:

Censored Version on YouTube.
Dirty Version on Vevo.

Say what you want about the man or his self over-indulgence and pride, what you will about rap or hip-hop: this 'music video' is something I found not as bullshit or odd for the sake of oddity as in some Lady Gaga-esque vain; but really deeply artistic and poetic. The pacing and lyrics and music is just all tops, even when it moves into something crazy. Rap is music that I have the strongest connection with, and despite all his issues I think Kanye is an incredibly talented person in most facets of his public life; be it fashion, music, art, or even blogging. The man just knows how to captivate- but he'd lost his touch, and everyone knew it.

Then, a year after Taylor Swift, he gives us 'Runaway'- and proves that he is the artistic genius (and I do tend to think this is genius, setting a new bar in what a music video is the way Thriller did) and that his over-saturation in pop culture could be brought to reality. That he could come back.

There's something incredibly redemptive in him painfully belting out "let's have a toast to the douchebags, let's have a toast to the asshooooles" as people raise wine glasses in slow-motion and he stands atop a piano in front of ballet dancers twirling about.

The pain and emotion and transformative rhythm of 'Runaway' is the most potent part of it all, though, and that caught me off-guard. This was a terrific music video, and even after 33 minutes of pure Kanye, I found myself wanting more- while also marveling in the catharsis and revival it brought by the time the title card in the end read.

Beginning and ending with the same frame of a frazzled, scared, angry Kanye West running sprint-speed through a forest road away from a fiery, explosively red sky with a cacophony of yelling, blurred drum beat noise is just astounding stuff.

This could've been really cheesy and retarded-looking and incredibly cocky-unintentional-self-parody, but it wasn't. It was so much more and so much better.

Like I see with Trent Reznor often, even when I don't like his music as much as I could've, I have to admit the pure artistry that the likes of him and Kanye West have on and in their respective fields of pop culture and music.
Posted: Sun, 24th Oct 2010, 11:27pm

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doppelganger

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It disappoints me that Mos Def and Common collaborated with Kanye

As for the film I found most, if not all of it very pretty to look at.Very very cool visuals in this. But the fact that I find Kanye West to be a good-decent producer but a terrible mc weakens the whole thing for me... since nearly the entire thing is put to his music obviously. Cool though more musicians should do this kind of thing. Although, Animal Collective beat him to the punch about half a year ago with ODDSAC but whatever smile
Posted: Sun, 24th Oct 2010, 11:39pm

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Axeman

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Rating: +1

Tried, almost made it through 3 minutes. The video did nothing for me up to that point, and I couldn't take the crap music any longer than that.
Posted: Mon, 25th Oct 2010, 12:10am

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Atom

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It's not crap music, but whatever.

And doppelganger, you do realize Kanye has produced almost all of Mos Def and Common's work of the past 5-10 years? The musical part of it, all lyricism and actual performance aside, is purely him, I'm pretty certain.
Posted: Mon, 25th Oct 2010, 12:33am

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doppelganger

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Kanye only has producing credits on The New Danger along with several other producers which imo isn't very good compared to Mos Defs other stuff and I don't really listen to Common all that much, mainly just the tracks on Dilla records he's been on. But seriously I'm not ragging on Kanye's producing. I loved everything on The College Dropout except his vocals.
Posted: Mon, 25th Oct 2010, 1:55am

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spydurhank

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Oh man oh man... I made it about 30 seconds. I don't want to say anything harsh but I just really can't stand rap hip hop or whatever you call it.
Sorry man it's just not for me but I hope that you at least enjoy it. I did give it a chance though and thanks for the link either way.
Posted: Mon, 25th Oct 2010, 2:14am

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Pooky

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I, on the other hand, can stand Hip Hop, and actually enjoyed listening to Kanye's previous album.

But this didn't grab me at all. The moment when the bird is brought on the table was great, but anything by the bird-lady was overacted and felt silly to me (except maybe when she danced which was rather interesting, heh). The ballet scene was also about 15 times too long, and Kanye's singing (not rapping) was awful. HOWEVER, it was very well shot, had interesting music and some greatly edited moments.

Here's my main gripe, though: whats the point of it? Redemption? It seemed like a bunch of self-indulgent situations meant to be artistic but actually being devoid of any real sense that I could discern other than "Here's ballet because it's artsy and beautiful" or "She's a Phoenix, get it? Like me!". It felt over the top and, well... very Kanye-like
Posted: Mon, 25th Oct 2010, 4:42am

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Aculag

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Pooky wrote:

Here's my main gripe, though: whats the point of it? Redemption? It seemed like a bunch of self-indulgent situations meant to be artistic but actually being devoid of any real sense that I could discern other than "Here's ballet because it's artsy and beautiful" or "She's a Phoenix, get it? Like me!". It felt over the top and, well... very Kanye-like
You realize it's a music video, right?

Even without the video, I'd call this his best work. I think Kanye is hilarious, and he makes some goddamn great music. While his last two albums weren't the greatest (though, I really loved 808s,) this is excellent.

Self-indulgence is kinda Kanye's thing if you hadn't noticed, and this is some of the best of it. smile Also, listening to the lyrics, it all feels very personal. Maybe not anything deep and philosophical, but it's a lot more than a vanity project.
Posted: Mon, 25th Oct 2010, 4:52am

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rogolo

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spydurhank wrote:

Oh man oh man... I made it about 30 seconds. I don't want to say anything harsh but I just really can't stand rap hip hop or whatever you call it.
That's funny, 'cause I didn't hear any 'rap hip hop' in the first 30 seconds. wink

More interesting, to me at least, is that people follow a link to a '30 Minute Kanye West Music Video', then take the time to write a comment to complain they don't like hip hop. I don't quite know what you were expecting when you clicked the link, and simply stating 'Music is crap!!!' detracts from any meaningful discussion.

For future reference: If you don't like hip hop, don't watch hip hop videos.

All in all, I thought it was interesting. Definitely well-designed, but the story fell flat for me emotionally. The 'phoenix turned to stone' scene (at 26 minutes) was laughable, for Kanye's acting and the terrible compositing. Music was quite good and I enjoyed a lot of the coloring. Overall, a worthwhile watch, but more for the music than anything on the screen.
Posted: Mon, 25th Oct 2010, 7:22am

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Axeman

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So you're saying that if we have disliked a lot of rap in the past, we should prejudiciously assume that all future rap is rubbish as well, rather than giving it a fair shot to see if it grabs us?

I guess that's one way to approach it.
Posted: Mon, 25th Oct 2010, 7:42am

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Atom

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The words 'fair shot' from someone who just outright called the music 'crap' as if it was fact seems a bit ironic, I think. smile
Posted: Mon, 25th Oct 2010, 8:06am

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Axeman

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Well, to start with, I listened to it before calling it crap, which is where the fair shot comes in. It was a somewhat educated assessment. Maybe it gets better further along. As I didn't make it very far into the piece, I didn't feel qualified to write up a more detailed review. As far as stating it as if it were fact, musical preference is always a matter of opinion, and I assumed everyone would know that when I describe it as crap, that is my opinion. I cannot state as universal fact whether any piece of music is good or bad. Obviously.

I was inclined to give the video a miss entirely, but figured I'd at least check it out, as maybe it would surprise me and be decent, and even if the music wasn't all that great, the visuals were well-hyped as well, so maybe they would be worth it.

Should've gone with my gut.
Posted: Mon, 25th Oct 2010, 9:37am

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Simon K Jones

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Only had time to watch about 10 minutes of this earlier today, but I'll watch the rest this evening.

From what I watched...

Bad points:

- Kanye's 'singing'. The man can rap for sure, but he can't sing to save his life. It's painful.

- The driving about at the start, like a poorly edited Top Gear promo. Seriously, seriously needed to be shorter - maybe it'll make more sense in context once I've watched the whole thing, but really...it doesn't take long to establish "Kanye is driving a sports car through a forest inhabited with deer".

Good points:

- Once the feathered girl arrives it gets more interesting (for various reasons...), even if the costume is absolutely hilarious. It's got a brilliant Flash Gordon-style campness to it, although I'm not sure whether that's exactly what Kanye was going for?

- Enjoyed the music when Kanye wasn't singing, and there was some very nice editing in time to it at points (although stretching out the car driving at the start so as to match the music was a mis-step).

- The Michael Jackson funeral parade thing was completely insane, and brilliant for it.
Posted: Mon, 25th Oct 2010, 4:10pm

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spydurhank

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Well, clicking the link and at least checking it out says alot about those of us that don't care for that type of music, mainly that we gave it a chance all be it a small one. And even though we may not like it we decided to check it out because Atom liked it enough to post a link to it... so out of curiosity and respect for something that Atom likes... yeah I'm gonna check it out and see what it has to offer, so just because I don't like something doesn't mean I'm not going to give it a chance and then speak my mind about what I thought about it.

I've been playing several instruments since I was 4 years old.
Does that make me an expert on music or what should be considerd as music? Not at all. I just know what type of music I like and don't like. To each his own I say and leave it at that. biggrin
Posted: Mon, 25th Oct 2010, 8:50pm

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Rockfilmers

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I got to around a minute and a half of watching a car drive around and just started skipping through it. Not really my thing. I can't really judge the music to much because it would just be biased against rap, but from what I saw, it's like more a short opera than a music video, which I credit the artistic value, but it was just so boring to me. Some of the shots looked nice, but for the most part, I can't see why someone would dedicate 34 minutes to watch this all the way through.
Posted: Mon, 25th Oct 2010, 9:09pm

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RodyPolis

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I started this last night and really liked. I liked the music, and the visuals were nice to look at. I liked the 'story' of him finding the alien girl and teaching it stuff, so can't wait to see how that turns out...


...Oh wait! Rogolo ruined it for me!!!!!
Posted: Mon, 25th Oct 2010, 9:49pm

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Sollthar

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Whatever nice filmmaking was behind this was utterly crushed by absolutely terrible "music" by some one who can't sing at all... Hahaha, this was laughably bad. Allthough to be fair, whenever the guy shut up, the music almost moved into bearable areas. But only almost. Whenever some real quality music seemed to be willing to emerge in the background, it was punched by some odd rap / hip hop crap or shot dead by the guys "singing".

But there are some nice images in the video. Nothing brilliant, but nice. Though to be honest, I skipped through it with the sound turned off after a couple of minutes. So I only saw about 4 or 5 minutes of it all in total.
Posted: Mon, 25th Oct 2010, 10:13pm

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Atom

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I get that musical taste is 'opinion', but some of these 'opinions' seem almost.....offensive....to people like myself who really enjoy the music. I may not at all like Bob Dylan, but I don't just openly bash it in such disparaging ways.

Is it because people find rap/hip-hop not to be in their own classification of music that makes it somehow self-justified to be so disparaging of it, as if it annoyed you to the point of aggression?

This isn't just in regards to Sollthar, but everyone. Hip-hop is very much a style of music and lyricism with strong ties and sentiment to many people- maybe keep that in mind the next time you want to discuss or offer your opinion on it.

Because, be it opinion or not, there's still quite some silly animosity towards it. I personally thought 'Runaway', the song in the center of the work, was the best of all of them- and I think it's some of his best.

Like Daft Punk or others of the mish-mash musical culture, I found the long-winded-ness of it trascending into a slur of phonetically-indiscernible autotune-isms to be really cool. I already said this, but I just find something really cool and emotional about seeing Kanye stand atop a piano in a white tuxedo and yell "Let's have a toast to the douchebagssss!".

It's so self-reflexive, so real, and yet so surreal. I guess it's something you have to have openness and an agreeable nature to to the type of music this is to actually appreciate.

The pretty universal liking/praising/lauding of it in the media made me feel it was FXHome-worthy. I was astounded by it. But clearly this isn't a place that can't appreciate it.

And that may sound overly-sensitive, but the outright bashing of music I greatly enjoy just pisses me off. I don't like Radiohead, but at best you'd hear me say 'they're too much a retread of their old stuff, and Muse has surpassed them by now'. If I went into talking about how it was laughable trash, you'd likely hear the biggest roar of disagreement ever.

Whatever, maybe white Europeans just isn't the right demographic for this sorta thing. wink
Posted: Mon, 25th Oct 2010, 10:19pm

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The Chosen One

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I watched the whole video, and I really didn't like anything about it. I'm not a big fan of rap or soul train type music, but even using the mute button I didn't care for the video either.
Posted: Mon, 25th Oct 2010, 10:28pm

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doppelganger

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Far too much hip-hop bashing in this thread. Hip-Hop is music. It's not "music". It's real and it takes tons and tons of talent. It's fine to dislike an artist but don't discredit everyone in the genre...
Posted: Mon, 25th Oct 2010, 10:33pm

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Pooky

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Rating: +3

Here's the deal with open-mindedness in music: I fully believe that everyone should be as open-minded as possible, listening to all kinds of things and asking themselves "what could there be to like about this?", in a quest for discovering music you love.

But here's the other part of that: if you have listened to something more than once, genuinely tried to enjoy it, read a bit about it on Wikipedia, know some of the background, and STILL don't enjoy it... then there's nothing at all wrong with that. Telling someone that doesn't like your style of music, assuming this person gave it a fair shot, that he or she isn't open-minded is missing the point that opinions cannot be wrong or right. Otherwise, they wouldn't be opinions.

For instance, you probably don't like Muse much. I vaguely remember you saying their last album was good but not particularly memorable, or something to that effect. For me, it's the complete opposite, as it's a band that resonates with me on nearly every level and that I don't think I could possibly like any more than I do now. Is this disparity just because you didn't listen to Knights of Cydonia enough times? Maybe. But it's probably just that your brain works differently, you grew up in a completely different culture, and your experiences and skills are vastly different to mine.

That being said, I'll agree that some of you guys seem to genuinely not want to enjoy Hip-Hop and Rap, which is kind of too bad on the open-mindedness front, but is up to you anyhow.

Atom, here's my attempt at explaining why so many people hate Rap, if that interests you at all: the culture. Every genre of music has a culture associated to it, going from high-brow intellectualism in classical, to anger and blackness and demons in metal, to Hipster clothing and liberalism in indy, and so on. Obviously. The problem then lies in the fact that Rap's culture is that of fast cars, loose women and plentiful money, mixed in with the club scene and the whole rapper persona. To most people, this culture looks completely ridiculous (think of something ridiculous about Europe, and invert it, and you might get an idea), over the top, silly and often annoying. And you can't technically say people are wrong about this without admitting that you yourself are wrong about whatever it is they like that you don't! Therefore, because they dislike the culture, the music only conjures up images of it when they listen to it, and they can't enjoy it.

It's part of why I can really get into Rap like Scroobius Pip, but can't for the life of me enjoy Jay-Z or 50 Cent. Oddly, though, I do like Kanye and Eminem.
Posted: Mon, 25th Oct 2010, 11:13pm

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Aculag

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I'm all for people having their own taste in music, but it seems like half of the people posting in here genuinely don't regard hip-hop as music. That kind of sentiment is just mind-boggling to me.
Posted: Tue, 26th Oct 2010, 12:04am

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er-no

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Every rapper has a different style. I'm a big fan of early hip hop (well, that of around late 80's and early 90's) - it was much more about hip hop culture, story and passion driven back then, I was a fan of rappers like Easy E and Ice Cube (before he decided to attack giant snakes in films). This however.. whatever this is from Kanye West, is a rather insane and diabolical music video funded by a man that has more money than sense. I'm trying to watch it now on the right hand side screen and whilst I don't like Kanye or his music, I can appreciate a very good shot or two (the whole thing is shot well yet it really is over the top).

Some of the instrumental's of the album are pretty good though, with the opening few minutes borrowing some prog rock style instrumentals and I'm pretty sure Kanye has nabbed a line or two of the lyrics from the prog rock band 'Yes'.

It's ridiculous and egotistical, but there aren't many artists in the world with as big an ego as Kanye and to be fair maybe that's a good thing.

p.s I liked the ballet bit though. (14mins-19mins)
Posted: Tue, 26th Oct 2010, 12:42am

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Atom

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Here's the deal though, Pooky. It's not the matter of mere 'hate'. I hate metal, but I don't need to discount it as 'not music', call it laughable, call it terrible, call it trash, or any other form of intensely negative sentiment. And that's what I see far too much of here, without even the flutter of an eyelash as to whether what is being said might be outright offensive and disparaging. With metal music-It makes absolutely no sense to me, I've tried to give it a chance and like it, and I simply do not.

But I listen to the people here when they offer it out, and I give it a chance. And hey, maybe I'll hate it. But the thing to it is, if I see strong passion for it from people posting it in the forum, I've no reason to blantantly, intensely criticize and 'shitt on it' as music. Someone else really likes it, why be so cruel to their tastes? There's just no reason for it.

You can hate the video and artistic integrity without assaulting the genre itself. In my opinion, it's just not called for. But maybe that's just me.
Posted: Tue, 26th Oct 2010, 1:00am

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Pooky

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While I agree with you, I think it's to be expected of a genre as radically different as Rap is. You saw this with Rock 'n' Roll, where the whole culture of letting loose and such clashed with the more traditional values that was the majority, and you're seeing it now when the whole culture of b!tches in ma limousine is clashing with current values. I'm personally not one to get into that sort of bling bling attitude, as I see most of it as a blend of anti-intellectualism and self-absorption, and that's probably the sort of thing that's fuelling most people's hate of the subculture.

As I said, you gotta differentiate between culture and musical genre. I hate the culture. I enjoy the musical genre when it's done in a way that resonates with me. And the fact of the matter is that 80% of the time, it doesn't resonate with me, which would make it easy to confuse the genre with the culture... and it's likely what's happened with people who are very anti-rap.

Also you gotta consider the whole aspect of Rap and Hip-Hop's popularity making it eclipse the other genres these days. 50-60% of people I talk to are into that genre and nothing else. It's kind of sad for me to feel like the music I've come to love is so unpopular in the mainstream... but then I guess that isn't a new phenomenon.
Posted: Tue, 26th Oct 2010, 1:15am

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Atom

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Well, there's more to it than that to me, as well. You can have a perspective of rap hurting other music- but why would I ever even begin to put myself in that perspective? Rap is the music I, by an overwhelming margin, most enjoy. Several of my best friends are rappers with great talent. I grew up around the grassroots of what is modern southern rap. The most professional business people I've met in the video world- and coincidentally the nicest- have been, well, rappers.

Then take my career, for instance. We've been relatively quiet about it on here, but Ben and I are really moving up nicely in the music video world with some pretty big, highly-popular clients. Those client have all been hip-hop artists. The people they praise us to, the referrals we get, and our biggest success now in premiering videos on MTV and BET comes from rap.

I may not have to be said or been mentioned, but rap/hip-hop is a very integral part of my present life and (likely) career. And I'm more than allowed to be offended by someone throwing such unnecessitated aggression towards that in such callous, vocal manner. And make no mistake, it may be accidental oversight on the part of the previous posters. But that's what it is. Careless, callous, and just not called for.

But again, maybe that's just me.
Posted: Tue, 26th Oct 2010, 2:30am

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Axeman

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Rating: +1

Atom wrote:

It's not the matter of mere 'hate'. I hate metal, but I don't need to discount it as 'not music', call it laughable, call it terrible, call it trash, or any other form of intensely negative sentiment. And that's what I see far too much of here, without even the flutter of an eyelash as to whether what is being said might be outright offensive and disparaging.
You find it offensive that other people strongly express opinions that differ from yours?

My comment was blunt, but I didn't mean it to be offensive. Sorry about that. I'll try break down my issues with rap in general.

Firstly, far too much of the content, lyrically, is offensive.

Secondly, music is a combination of melody, harmony, and rhythm. I value melody in particular very highly in the music I like. Rap is primarily rhythm. Melodies are few and far between, and when they do appear they are generally very, very simple, which isn't necessarily bad, but makes it more likely that they won't be all that interesting. And I'm sure you could find some examples that counter this, as I've by no means listened to the genre comprehensively.

Thirdly, while singing is an obvious skill, rap isn't singing, its talking. For the most part, I don't find the ability to say things particularly impressive. And while I'll happily admit that a few rappers have a skill for rhyming and crafting somewhat intricate rhythms to their lyrics, its still not something that thrills me. And much too often, the rhythm of the lyrics is far too repetitive for my taste, and gets really redundant really quick.

Fourthly, the lifestyle/culture that goes along with it is so ridiculous that I find myself embarrassed for those involved whenever exposed to it. The blatant greed, lack of respect for other people, especially women, and glorification of a violently criminal lifestyle is distasteful.

Fifthly, being a drummer myself, I find the heavy incessant beats unsatisfying. I prefer something more intricate and generally less repetitive.

These opinions reflect my general attitude toward rap based on the bits of it I have heard. They aren't necessarily related directly to this Kanye video in particular. And while I am entirely aware that for each of those points, there is rap music out there that is an exception, even then for the most part it falls outside of my musical taste. There are the few exceptions of rap songs I enjoy, but they are very few.

And this isn't a judgment of anyone who might enjoy rap, its just my opinion, my point of view, in an attempt to answer the questions raised. Hopefully to help Atom understand where people who dislike rap are coming from. But I won't like anyone any less if they love this Kanye song.
Posted: Tue, 26th Oct 2010, 4:45am

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Sollthar

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Well said Axeman, I agree on all points you've just said. I find the rap culture rather ridiculous myself.
It reminds me of teens in puberty trying to act "tough" and "cool". And whenever I listen to what they're actually saying, I cringe.
If anything, if find it pretty laughable and the word "embarassed" comes to mind as well. It's kind of cute without the cute. Out of all music styles, rap and hip hop is the one I like the least. Which makes total sense seing I'm not a fan of music where people sing. In this case, they don't even sing, they talk. And they talk random nonsense... Can't get much worse.

Obviously, it's music alright. Just not a very good or interesting version of it. Too simple, too monotone, too boring with a lifestyle behind it I not only don't care for, but rather dislike. I'm sure there are exceptions, I've just not come across one. This certainly isn't.

And this Kayne can't sing. At all. The few moments at the beginning where he tries are terrible.
Posted: Tue, 26th Oct 2010, 4:56am

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Atom

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There's no point in discussing this, as I've said I understand why people dislike rap. What I don't understand, and what you've proven in your aggressively and decidedly negative response, is why that dislike has to be a grandstand of everything that is wrong with (and terrible about) the genre.

The very fact that you go into detail about lyricism and singing and still have the gall to say something like 'rap is just talking' signals to me that you immediately just 'don't get it'. The inference of greed in the entire genre of music itself, the signal that it's all 'criminal' or 'gangster' music. That's so maddening, it's hard to articulate. And then to have Sollthar tell you 'good points'. I really just want to roll my eyes and grit my teeth.

That's fine, but don't be a douchebag about why the art and musical genre is barely one. It's callous, that's the word for it that I can best find. You don't see why an opinion can be offensive? Or is that just third-person questioning to show
I'm just being too sensitive?

No, when you talk in the diction, tone, attitude, and with the lightness of such incitingly ignorant words that you are- in reference to objective art- you can't just pull that 'oh, well that's just my opinion' stuff.

'Rap is talking random nonsense' or 'this isn't music, its trash' is not an opinion. It's someone not realizing how to be respectful of other people's taste and passion. It's so ignorant and elitist and immediately damning of something very real and intensely loved by so many people- it's almost pathetic, for you guys' sake.

But again, maybe that's just me.
Posted: Tue, 26th Oct 2010, 5:35am

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Sollthar

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Hehe, "objective art". Art isn't objective. Ever. It's probably one of the most subjective things we have, completely dependant on a persons perspective, past experience an life feeling.

Don't I "get it"? Sure I don't. That's the point. I look at it, greatly dislike what I see (in this case, hear) and move on. I don't get it.
I like things other people dislike. Fine.

I do get that people can be offended. Aren't they always? In the words of Steve Hughes "Be offended! Nothing's gonna happen."
If the notion that my perspective is negative on something you like offends you then... Erm... tough luck, I guess? smile

Edit:

This isn't an scientific analysis of the genre based on deep study. What I say is a complete throwaway opinion by someone with, indeed, no deeper understanding of the matter other than a few looks and no desire to look deeper as it doesn't attract me but puts me off. On many, many levels.
Posted: Tue, 26th Oct 2010, 6:23am

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Thrawn

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Sollthar's just bitter because he can't keep a beat wink

I've got to say though, I agree with Atom. While you're certainly entitled to your opinion, Sollthar, it seems as if you're treating your reaction to rap/hip-hop as factual. As if you're saying "Fact: Rap is trash". That is offensive, and reasonably so. It's not a matter of your opinion being offensive, but the fact that (until your last post) you weren't really treating it as an opinion, but as a fact. You hit the nail right on the head when you said that art is subjective, but that's certainly not the tone you set in your first post (example: "this was utterly crushed by absolutely terrible "music" by some one who can't sing at all... Hahaha, this was laughably bad.").

Pooky, a perfect description of musical taste. I'm sometimes amazed how people on FXhome can put my thoughts into such splendid and logical sentences. +1.
Posted: Tue, 26th Oct 2010, 7:14am

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spydurhank

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Don't take it so personal... those of you that enjoy hip hop that is. Please don't take it that way. At least those of us that don't like that type of music are being honest with you.

We watched a bit of the video because it's something that your into so we figure it's worth a gander. It's not bashing when we let you know why we don't particularly care for that genre of music. There's no reason for you to get upset because we explain the "why" we don't like it because it's not a personal shot at you.

Don't turn a positive into a negative man. You like this music and some of us don't... big Vulcan deal man. Just focus on the "you" liking the music aspect. If you think that we don't get it well... then to bad for us right because we don't get it. You hear something in hip hop that speaks to you and we hear something that we just don't like, if you reverse that... then you're not hearing what we hear when we listen to hip hop... a bunch of dudes that are into how big thier house is, personal gain such as how much money cars jewelry and women they can get and yes a ton of so called rock music falls into that same type of music. Need I say Glam rock or hair bands?

I wont get into the musical progression of a good song but I can honestly say that most of us like music with some lyrical substance and musical technicality other than a repeating beat and bass line.
Posted: Tue, 26th Oct 2010, 7:44am

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Atom

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Maybe I can put it in perspective, spydurhank. Your 'honesty' maybe be honest, but it's also disparaging. Not particularly yours, as you made a pretty tame, neutral comment on not liking the video early on in the conversation- but more of the universal 'you' that has the present air of condescension and hate in this thread. How can everyone be so obtuse? Surely myself and Thrawn and Aculag of all people aren't the only ones seeing this.

There has been plenty of synthesis that tackles personal distaste for the genre with pleasantly fine disagreement. Rockfilmers, Tarn, and the like all did it. So why is it the likes of Axeman and Sollthar have to keep at it with such blatant (and, sadly, seemingly accidental) callousness?

Just give it a rest- you don't like rap, don't try to explain why. Doesn't matter, it's pure taste. What matters, is when you take something someone enjoys, something with validity, and re-categorize it on your own terms.

It may be acceptable, but it also insults the taste of those that enjoy it. Of those that create and work in and for it. And it's just outright harsh and rude for no reason. There's no need for that. You don't see me going into any thread about music and bitchslapping it in the face, now, do you? Because that is, in all honesty, what this seems like to me.

I wouldn't be so vocal or retaliative about it if it didn't very clearly mean something to me. Because this isn't an opinion or attack on Kanye, it's one on the liking, quality, and validity of hip-hop music itself.

Well I have several friends who work hard at it, are very talented, and it's a large part of my life currently- of my career- and what I do in everyday life. I won't just let some old white assholes who think they're cultured in music and can cling to their 'opinions' and don't like 'gangster' music (with the many subtexts that fall under that) openly bash it without consequence. Because that's what this....

Axeman wrote:

I couldn't take the crap music any longer than that.

Axeman wrote:

the visuals were well-hyped as well, so maybe they would be worth it. Should've gone with my gut.

Sollthar wrote:

Whatever nice filmmaking was behind this was utterly crushed by absolutely terrible "music" by some one who can't sing at all... Hahaha, this was laughably bad.
Although to be fair, whenever the guy shut up, the music almost moved into bearable areas. But only almost.
Whenever some real quality music seemed to be willing to emerge in the background, it was punched by some odd rap / hip hop crap or shot dead by the guys "singing".

Axeman wrote:

while singing is an obvious skill, rap isn't singing, its talking. For the most part, I don't find the ability to say things particularly impressive.
The blatant greed, lack of respect for other people, especially women, and glorification of a violently criminal lifestyle is distasteful.

Sollthar wrote:

whenever I listen to what they're actually saying, I cringe. If anything, if find it pretty laughable and the word "embarassed" comes to mind as well.
I'm not a fan of music where people sing. In this case, they don't even sing, they talk. And they talk random nonsense... Can't get much worse.
Obviously, it's music alright. Just not a very good or interesting version of it.
...is.

And you can say that, but don't expect someone to call you on it, because it's not right. I'm not trying to change your opinion of it or get you to like to- but rather highlight your ignorances. Because that's what they are. And until you either realize them guys, or find nicer ways to convey your distaste as opinion- I won't allow you to get off without some bit of aggressive retaliation.

Sorry, I just won't.
Posted: Tue, 26th Oct 2010, 8:17am

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Sollthar

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"Fact: Rap is trash".
Oh no, that's not fact. Fact as in, universal truth. I don't believe in universal thruths. smile

It's my perspective. My "opinion", if you want to call it that. Just because I don't add an IMO at the end of everything doesn't mean it's anything less than just my opinion. And in my opinion, rap is trash. It's bad, boring, often downright unlistenable music, with bad text and an attitude behind it I find embarassing to watch or listen to. That's neither a fact nor am I in any way qualified to make a statement about ALL rap cause obviously, I haven't heard ALL, nor do I care to. But all I've heard fit that description. It's a mix of taste and stereotypes. I'm fully aware of that, hence my opinion is in no way worth a dime.

It's still my opinion. The music in this is terrible and the guy can't sing. biggrin

I've no problem with people who like rap. Like it, by all means! Many of my closest friends love rap and hip hop. Hell, my best friends does tournament hip hop dance and I regularly visit his performances. I just can't stant the music and dislike the "culture" I associate with it.


Given, the fact it's atom out of all people to play the "I'm offended" card does add a bit of humourous satire into it all I find hard to resist. "Old white assholes"... Hehe. Someone listening to rap a bit too often here? redface


Anyways, there's indeed no need to go on. Some people find it crap, some people find it great. That's the case with all things. If I got offended everytime someone calls somethign I like crap I'd be crying all the time.Ît's fine. smile

Last edited Tue, 26th Oct 2010, 8:46am; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Tue, 26th Oct 2010, 8:26am

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Atom

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Whatever man. I know I've got it right, either way. Three or four words in your diction choice in this conversation pretty much immediately cemented the types of biases you were and likely are going to continue to have with this sort of music. And that's fine, but go from there knowing that.

I say 'old white assholes' because that's precisely what you sound like to me. I know you're not, of course, but who would know with those sort of descriptions, really?

It's got the same aura about it as the real damning, subconsciously-racist, 'this isn't music', 'I don't like this black gangster/womanizing/greedy image garbage' elitist mentality held by, well, a vocal group of old, white curmudgeons. It's a very real group with a very thinly-veiled hatred. And just as embarrassing as rap may be to you, I can guarantee you the ignorance of it entirely is a much greater one.

I'm sorry if I've put you into that, but you do yourself no favors.

Ohhhhhhhhhh, "OPINIONS!!!!!" Now, you've got me! Now you can say whatever the f*ck you want!

Except, no. Because this isn't an opinion inbox, it's a forum. A community. A place where we're supposed to discuss, appreciate, and communicate our feelings and likes and dislikes to eachother in a courteous and civil manner. Now this may not always happen, but it's not just 'Let loose you OPINION'-ville, either.

People care about this stuff, man. I care. Treat it with a (little, just a little) bit more respect.
Posted: Tue, 26th Oct 2010, 8:50am

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Simon K Jones

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Rating: +2

I think Aculag summed it up succinctly earlier on:

Aculag wrote:

I'm all for people having their own taste in music, but it seems like half of the people posting in here genuinely don't regard hip-hop as music. That kind of sentiment is just mind-boggling to me.
The seeming determination in this topic to belittle an entire genre by putting it in "quotes" all the time is a little perplexing. As Aculag says, disliking or even hating a genre is one thing; trying to argue that it isn't even worthy of being called "music" is something else entirely.

One genre I really don't like is R&B, the type that emerged in the late 90s. It's definitely music, though, and I wouldn't want to insult its fans by claiming otherwise.

The rap subculture has been mentioned. Aspects of it certainly are extremely embarassing, in particular the excesses. But you could say exactly the same about rock & roll, metal, or anything else. Every culture has its extremes, but it doesn't mean you should write off the entire thing.

Talking of embarassing, the "rap is just talking" attitude is also rather cringeworthy. While rap certainly isn't singing, it's also not 'just talking'. I'd love to hear some of the people who have labelled it as such attempt to actually perform some of the complex wordsmithery employed by the best rappers. It'd be hilarious. smile At its best, rap is a modern form of poetry, set to music.

Another thing that always confuses me a bit is when people dismiss entire genres. As I say, I've not found any R&B songs that I like yet, but I'm not going to actively dismiss the genre. It makes me think a bit of people that say "oh, I don't like seafood" - something that always strikes me as an insane stance. How can you dislike something that is so diverse? Same goes for rap/hip hop - it's not just one thing.

There is one true fact here, though: Kanye can't sing. razz
Posted: Tue, 26th Oct 2010, 9:21am

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Sollthar

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You're obviously perfectly spot on and absolutely right with everything you say Tarn. I don't think anyone disagrees on it. Well, I certainly don't. smile

Emotions tend to do that though. A bit of unqualified rambling can be relieving sometimes and, dare I say it, even fun.
My father often called the music I listened to noise instead of music, hehe. I'm sure he was fully aware of the fact it was still music as much as everyone here is aware of the fact Rap/Hip Hop is still actually music. Putting in in quotes does pretty much the same thing my father used to do: express a particular dislike with a certain emotionality mixed in. No more, no less.
Same goes for the "just talking" bit. Obviously, there's some skill involved and being into poetry slam myself even a skill I do have a certain respect for - if it's on a high level, which I mostly just don't think. In rap and poetry slam, that is.

So no one's actually arguing it's "just talking" or "not music". It's just a way to express dislike.

And yes, you can never dismiss an entire genre "factually" if you haven't listened to all of it (and who knows, maybe there WOULD be a part you like that just hasn't been done, within the same genre!). That's all true and nice. But it's also not what's happening.
No facts, just a dislike or like with some throwaway lines for something that, obviously, in some opinions isn't worth more. Are we doing it injustice? Yeah. Sure. Too bad though. it's not like we're talking about anything of any importance.

I like seafood, but I haven't tried it all. So maybe there's stuff I don't like. Yet, I say "I like seafood". I also dislike pink (the color, not the singer).

People like general statements to express feelings. We all know they dont hold up. smile


Anyways. You're the voice of reason and the voice of reason is right. No general disrespect to people who like this intended.
Posted: Tue, 26th Oct 2010, 9:57am

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Simon K Jones

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Sollthar wrote:

it's not like we're talking about anything of any importance.
That's an interesting viewpoint. I don't think it's for you or I to determine the overall importance of something like music. Its importance relies entirely upon context.

Music has played a part in reshaping the world on many occasions - while a song might not be as important to life as food and water, in terms of human development and society it is vastly important.

A Kanye West music video not being of importance to you doesn't mean it has no importance in general, or to other people.

But, then, I'm sure you already know that, so I'm a little perplexed by the statement.

Anyways. You're the voice of reason and the voice of reason is right.
Go me!
Posted: Tue, 26th Oct 2010, 11:33am

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Sollthar

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I don't think it's for you or I to determine the overall importance of something like music
Well, then whoever is in charge of determining the importance of stuff hopefully makes a stop in this thread and gives us all a hint so we know! tard

Sarcasm aside. Apart from the fact I've nowhere made any statements about "the importance of music" (so not sure where that little ballad to music came from), of course it's for me or you to determine the importance of something. Of everything. The very concept of importance is, as you said, contextual and subjective. So who else to determine but us?

I don't think if I like rap or not or if someone else does or not is of any greater importance. Nor do I think that a Kanye video is of any greater importance.
I hope people can deal with that...

You're of course perfectly free to disagree and voice that disagreement.
As I said. No intentional disrespect intended, but if you're offended by the fact I do have an opinion and it isn't congruent to someone elses, then be offended. Or perplexed. Keeps the world an interesting place.
Posted: Tue, 26th Oct 2010, 11:45am

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swintonmaximilian

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Yeah, music is a funny thing. It's very personal and important to most people, and it's often hard to hear anything said against it, especially when it's a statement that undermines the ability and skill of the musician, when you know they have it in abundance.

I'm not a fan of rap; it's not my cup of coffee. And some of the associated attitudes and culture of rap is a little embarrassing and hard to understand from my emotionally removed vantage point.

But, I like rock and metal, bands like AC/DC, Iron Maiden, DIO, etc. Now, I like a lot of other, very different music too, but the thing about the bands I mentioned is that, from Atom's point of view, they are probably laughably bad and embarrassing. The attitudes and culture associated with these bands, with metal, is hilarious and ridiculous and, for me, spiritually uplifting and moving and extremely important.

For example, I find this utterly brilliant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUXSTY9AW-s

And technically, you might say that rappers just talk, there is no skill involved etc, but you could also argue that technically virtuoso singing really amounts to little more than someone putting on a silly voice.

What's my point? Rap sucks, DIO rules. Discuss.
Posted: Tue, 26th Oct 2010, 11:55am

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The Chosen One

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swintonmaximilian wrote:

I like rock and metal, bands like AC/DC, Iron Maiden, DIO, etc.
Hell Yea! "Up Those Irons" twisted
Posted: Tue, 26th Oct 2010, 12:35pm

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davlin

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As an "old white asshole" with all the common personal interpretations
of contempory life and its music I still think ELVIS was the greatest.
Eat your hearts out guys... biggrin

May the storm begin..lol
Posted: Tue, 26th Oct 2010, 1:26pm

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pdrg

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Just to up the irrational emotion levels in this thread a little more...

Macs, eh? PC's FTW!

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=2969374583886026984# <-- Now *that* is (c) rap!!
Posted: Tue, 26th Oct 2010, 1:29pm

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Simon K Jones

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Hehe, Trapped in the Closet is utterly mystifying to me. I can't quite tell how much of a joke it was supposed to be. But aside from anything else a) the midget reveal is amazing and b) Omar comin'!
Posted: Tue, 26th Oct 2010, 1:40pm

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mercianfilm

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I laughed out loud (Really loud) when the midget came out...i don't even know why! it just sounded funny the way he said it.

I like music, not types of music i just like all music, i generally give most things a go to see if i like it, my favourite muscians are michael buble, take that, billy ocean, dizzee rascal, AC/DC, elbow and Muse- quite a range. Some of Kanye's work is amazing- my fav song from him is touch the sky- the video for that is great as well! I also liked the one he did with Chris martin, having said that though some of his work, like all muscians, sometimes misses the mark- it's especially hard for them to keep coming up with fresh materiel for new albums. I'm not sure about this track just yet, i hope it grows on me and i can enjoy it. I'll probably give a better view in the future then , instead of rambling now.

Like Tarn said it's not up to us to decide what effects music has on the world but i strongly agree that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, it's not up to some music critic, record label etc to decide what's good or bad music either,everyone has their own opinion, if people didn't have their own opinions music wouldn't be so varied and would ultimately be very bland.

As someone once said 'you can't please all the people all the time...' It goes on like that for a while and is very poignent but i can't remember it.
Posted: Tue, 26th Oct 2010, 2:04pm

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Serpent

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I think this was brilliantly and artfully shot.

The music was decent overall, but also really bad in parts. I always like Kanye's flow and production in his rap music, but his lyrics don't always hit home with me, and I'm not a fan of his slower work. The fireworks song in particular was terrible for the most part. I completely dislike that style of female vocals too.

As a whole, I'm not a huge fan, even after getting myself in the right mood. Parts of it were very striking, and some of the music was good. The entire end with the cloud scene onward with Bon Iver's 'Woods' was awesome. Good visual filmmaking though, in all respects, I love the cinematography and cross processed look, and all the design.

I didn't think it was more self indulgent than anything else out there, he's a musician creating a music video that creatively expressed his music.

Last edited Tue, 26th Oct 2010, 2:07pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Tue, 26th Oct 2010, 2:07pm

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Sollthar

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I've really no idea where the whole "importance of music in the world" thing came from. biggrin

I can highly recommend this for all the "offended" and "non-offended" alike.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-JxA9Rvs8I
Posted: Tue, 26th Oct 2010, 2:14pm

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Simon K Jones

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Sollthar wrote:

I've really no idea where the whole "importance of music in the world" thing came from. biggrin

Sollthar wrote:

Are we doing it injustice? Yeah. Sure. Too bad though. it's not like we're talking about anything of any importance.
Misinterpretation of what you meant, perhaps?
Posted: Tue, 26th Oct 2010, 2:30pm

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Sollthar

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A couple of people talk on an internet forum about a music video and their opinions of that video and or certain genres of music.

We're not finding a cure for cancer or aids, no one got shot or otherwise hurt (for the "offense" part, refer to the above video), we're not making any deep political decisions based on this and we're not scientifically trying to find an objective assertion of music and or the human soul, we're just casually talking about a video and a certain music. At least I am.

In my book, that's nothing important what's happening here.
Posted: Tue, 26th Oct 2010, 2:36pm

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Simon K Jones

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Sollthar wrote:

In my book, that's nothing important what's happening here.
Very true. But sometimes you do need to have some empathy for other people. wink
Posted: Tue, 26th Oct 2010, 2:39pm

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spydurhank

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This discussion is very interesting to me on all parts and I would really like to know every one's opinions of why they like or dislike rap. When I think about it, maybe my dislike comes from the whole or in part culture that revolves around rap like a bad case of herpes, for me that is.

You've got to admit at least a little that most rap songs speak of committing crimes and the one thing in the entire world which I cannot tolerate... a bunch of self proclaimed lyrical poets bragging about doing and selling drugs. Yup I think that's where my dislike for the music comes from, yes I know that drugs are everywhere but that's why there are many things that I don't like. I'm not judging but I cannot stand drugs, drug dealers and users. A great swell of anger and aggression rises within me when I think about it. So seeing as how rap has a deeply negative undertone for me, I'm not going to like it just like I know that little Mr. West is a complete jack-ass and tends to stick his foot in his mouth so I'm not going to like him or anything he does. Make sense?

Now purely on the musical and artistic side were I to disregard lyrics and what I perceive as negative culture, I admit that it takes a level of skill to rhyme along with looped tracks but the music really is bland, not that it's terribly bad but it just doesn't grab my attention. Out of respect... I'm going to watch the entire video, who knows maybe I'm missing something?
Posted: Tue, 26th Oct 2010, 2:46pm

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Sollthar

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sometimes you do need to have some empathy for other people.
If people honestly get deeply hurt simply by the fact that I think rap and hip hop sucks big time and the music in this video they're in no way affiliated with is bad and the guy can't sing as if my opinion on rap matters in any way whatsoever then... well... develop a skin willya?
I'll rather save my empathy for people with real problems.
Posted: Tue, 26th Oct 2010, 2:49pm

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The Chosen One

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I do like the song White Lines from Grandmaster Flash, so I must retract my other comment about not liking rap music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ChjLMbXVrU
Posted: Tue, 26th Oct 2010, 3:04pm

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davlin

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Marco..your link says it all for me....well chosen biggrin
Posted: Tue, 26th Oct 2010, 3:04pm

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Serpent

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Sollthar wrote:

So I only saw about 4 or 5 minutes of it all in total.
Sollthar, I don't think you're deeply hurting anyone, but you are appearing extremely biased.

If you are aware that you haven't heard the majority of hip hop and rap (that is almost as vague as "rock and roll" nowadays), and this video, I don't understand why you choose to word your opinions the way you do. Just makes it seem irrelevant. But that's my opinion. I get what you're saying, I just don't think you're coming across well. And empathy is a quality, it's not an item with ammo. You don't need to save it.
Posted: Tue, 26th Oct 2010, 3:10pm

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Xcession

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Marco..your link says it all for me....well chosen
QFT
Posted: Tue, 26th Oct 2010, 4:05pm

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Sollthar

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You are appearing extremely biased
I am biased.
I also often judge books by it's covers, films by it's trailers, products by it's packages, food by it's color and I really really dislike WOW despite the fact I've only played until level 17 in it's beta version!

I'm just naturally evil I guess. unsure

empathy is a quality, not an item with ammo. You don't need to save it
Hehe, great line with a nice poetic ring to it. I would know some psychologists who would strongly disagree though - but that's not really the issue.

You know, had I personally attacked or directly insulted someone (other then Kanye), I'd even apologize. But I haven't.
For insulting a THING someone else likes though, I won't. I'll remain with: deal with it.
Posted: Tue, 26th Oct 2010, 4:25pm

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spydurhank

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So I just sat through it and uh... yeah, apart from some so so visuals it was a very poor attempt at... I don't what he was trying to do honestly. I didn't mind some of the shots so much but he killed any of the interesting parts the second he moves his lips, inhales then exhales and starts rapping or singing. I cringed when he said "you find bravery in my bravado" Really!? He was spitting out a bunch of gibberish that just happened to rhyme. It's like he wasn't even trying but it validates my dislike for rap and also Wests total lack of any vocal talent. Lets face it... the guy just cannot hold a note to save his life.

I don't know, maybe some day someone will do something awesome with this style of music that I will like?

Oh wait... I do recall that I liked Bust a move by Young M.C. when I was a kid. biggrin
Posted: Tue, 26th Oct 2010, 4:35pm

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The Chosen One

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spydurhank wrote:

He was spitting out a bunch of gibberish that just happened to rhyme.
"I would not, could not, in a box I would not could not with Mr.Fox. I do not like green eggs and ham, I do not like them Sam I Am."
Posted: Tue, 26th Oct 2010, 4:42pm

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spydurhank

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The Chosen One wrote:

spydurhank wrote:

He was spitting out a bunch of gibberish that just happened to rhyme.
"I would not, could not, in a box I would not could not with Mr.Fox. I do not like green eggs and ham, I do not like them Sam I Am."
Oh burn... good point on your part though but I don't think the good Dr. would like to be compared to a rapper. biggrin
Posted: Tue, 26th Oct 2010, 5:49pm

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pdrg

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Xcession wrote:

QFT
QFT? wink
Posted: Tue, 26th Oct 2010, 7:30pm

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Serpent

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Sollthar wrote:


empathy is a quality, not an item with ammo. You don't need to save it
Hehe, great line with a nice poetic ring to it. I would know some psychologists who would strongly disagree though - but that's not really the issue.
True, that isn't fact, but that's how it should be. smile

You know, had I personally attacked or directly insulted someone (other then Kanye), I'd even apologize. But I haven't.
For insulting a THING someone else likes though, I won't. I'll remain with: deal with it.
That's all fine and well, but the next rap topic is bound to turn into another topic about the concept of 'opinion' if everyone is talkin' blunt and biased. I mean, I could be a dick all I want and say 'deal with it,' that doesn't mean the other participators will be happy about that. I think it's less a matter of "offense" and more a matter of poor discussion, even though someone may have felt indirectly offended by what you were saying and the way you said it. Keep on keepin' on though, they'll keep calling you a 'dick' and you'll keep calling them an 'idiot.' wink
Posted: Tue, 26th Oct 2010, 8:24pm

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Sollthar

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they'll keep calling you a 'dick' and you'll keep calling them an 'idiot.'
Heh, people can call me that if they like - I called no one an idiot though and don't intend to. I have no ill wishes or negative feelings towards anyone nor was I, in my opinion, "a dick" to anyone - maybe to Kanye for calling his singing "laughably bad", but I doubt he reads these boards.

Unless I have to be a dick to voice a strong but honest opinion without calling anyone any names about a subject despite the fact I know that other people have different opinions. In that case, I'm no less then a super-dick! Maybe even the ultimate-dick! twisted


Anyways, rest assured I'll try to stay far from rap topics in the future. wink
Posted: Tue, 26th Oct 2010, 8:32pm

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Serpent

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I was kidding, referencing part of the routine you posted. I realize there was no literal name calling here.
Posted: Tue, 26th Oct 2010, 8:36pm

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Sollthar

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Ah, gotcha!

Darn. I can put my "sollthar the super-dick" costume back in the cupboard then I guess. evil
Posted: Tue, 26th Oct 2010, 9:02pm

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Serpent

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I'm trying to imagine what that would look like and it only looks gross.
Posted: Wed, 27th Oct 2010, 1:27am

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CX3

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Atom wrote:

Well I have several friends who work hard at it, are very talented, and it's a large part of my life currently- of my career- and what I do in everyday life. I won't just let some old white assholes who think they're cultured
Hmm... Gee, Atom that sounds eerily similar to me and my love for making martial arts oriented vids... But nahhh... That couldn't be...

I laugh! lol

I also like hip-hop but who cares if others don't? To each his own.
Posted: Wed, 27th Oct 2010, 4:35am

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Atom

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Hey, I still make movies too, though, CX3! wink
Posted: Thu, 28th Oct 2010, 12:49am

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CX3

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Shot for shot trailer rips are movies? think mrgreen
Posted: Thu, 28th Oct 2010, 1:01am

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Atom

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Wouldn't you know it, I'm not a one-note has-been. So no, they aren't. They're just hugely-popular, widely-lauded internet sensations that help bridge contacts with good filmmaking and business opportunities. Not movies.

But neither are paid professional music videos for name rappers playing on BET and MTV, television ads, student film assignments (you know, since I'm also a full-time student), or demo reels. But I still manage to fit those in, in addition to movies, bud. Most-majorly the financed feature we've got coming up. Those are movies. Because I like to grow as a filmmaker. You know, take people's advice and keep myself doing a range of things. wink

I see what you're trying to do there, though.

Call me cocky all you want, there's a big difference between musical taste and respecting the work and talents of my rapper friends and not accepting critical 'facts' against that, and personal work/projects/hobbyism. And as someone who expressly doesn't normally work on comedies, I find it funny that it's parody work you're trying to knock me on.
Posted: Thu, 28th Oct 2010, 1:53am

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CX3

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Rating: +1

Mmmmmmmm Hmm... blink
Posted: Thu, 28th Oct 2010, 3:08am

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swintonmaximilian

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What's your feature atom? Can you tell us anything about it?
Rap is rubbish etc.
Posted: Thu, 28th Oct 2010, 4:07am

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Atom

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I actually have to be pretty quiet on all those fronts that I've just mentioned past the few words I've already said, and this:

-The feature is this year. It's a modern(ish)-day Western.
-We've got a deal with a record company for music videos and other work that's really exciting.
-Some other big media outlets will be working with us soon with some nice exposure.

It's been killing me since July not really being able to mention much of it here, moreso once Inebriation went up. smile But if you PM/email me I can give you a tad more info, at least on the feature. The other things are a bit more under-wraps.

And CX3, whatever man. Cling to your choreography stuff. If you want to call me out on doing one thing, get me at a time when I'm not working on quite a bit in many different areas. wink
Posted: Thu, 28th Oct 2010, 8:13am

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Sollthar

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-The feature is this year.
That's exciting news. Personally, I'm looking forward to seeing what you guys pull off on a feature if you spend some time on it and maybe even have some money at your disposal. Now that's something to definately have my interest!

If it'll be in Atomic 2.5D, I'll buy two. wink
Posted: Thu, 28th Oct 2010, 2:50pm

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ben3308

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It very well may end up just shy of feature-length, at which point we'll be cutting it down to under 40 minutes to qualify for SXSW and Sundance 'short film' guidelines.
Posted: Thu, 28th Oct 2010, 2:54pm

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Sollthar

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Still, even a short that takes enough time to properly build up to those climaxes we see from you in those 48 hour contests would be ace.

Sundance sounds good. Fingers crossed!
Posted: Sun, 14th Nov 2010, 6:02am

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Pooky

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You know, I just listened to the actual album, and that was the best Rap album I've ever heard.

First time I've heard Rap that, to me, sounded... well, elegant boggle
Posted: Sun, 14th Nov 2010, 11:49am

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Aculag

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Yes, it is quite good. I didn't think he could ever top Late Registration, but he seems to have done it, and then some.

Pooky, you would probably like Atlas. His LP, Beauty & The Blues, just DROPPED this year. It's masterful flow over masterful beats. And at only 8 tracks, one of the tightest, and most restrained hip-hop albums I've ever heard. Definitely check it out. In fact, any of the hip-hop fans here should check it out. It's awfully good.
Posted: Sun, 14th Nov 2010, 4:18pm

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Atom

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I'll have to check out Atlas myself, Aculag.

Also, I agree on the album- it's absolutely excellent. Trascendental of rap and very, well, yes- elegant. I don't think it tops The College Dropout, which I maintain is his best work, but it comes very close in the same way Late Registration did. (And to a smaller extent Graduation.)

I think more than sizing up to his previous work, though, this album is great because of his consistency. Kanye knows how to strike a style, mood, feel, etc. and stick with it through different emotions and tempos in the varying tracks to get something in his albums that feels very, I dunno, succinct. My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy is no different.

The College Dropout, Late Registration, Graduation, and this all feel like progressive steps out of immaturity and carefreeness and into adulthood and realization of the world. Which may sound overly-analytical for a Kanye West rap album, but that's how they sound to me. There's a distinctness of sound to each individual album, but they have an overall consistent tone that culminates in this sort of grand, elegant, transition into something new by the end of MBDTF.

I really love it, and love that about Kanye West. The man just has so much style, even in his music.
Posted: Mon, 15th Nov 2010, 12:29am

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NuttyBanana

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I know I'm late into this - I gave it about 7 minutes and then gave up.

From the few posts I have read including you thinking people are being offensive towards rap, I agree with all of them. You can't compare it to being offensive to Bob Dylan. He doesn't sing about being shot or shooting someone, beating up his girlfriend and doing time, throwing around the N-bomb, etc etc.

I know not all rap is based on these topics but thats what people have made popular and more known. For the record though I really really detest this kind of music.
Posted: Mon, 15th Nov 2010, 12:47am

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Aculag

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Atom wrote:

I'll have to check out Atlas myself, Aculag.
Yes, you definitely should. Just follow that there link there, I'm sure you'll find something that will help you out. Amazon, iTunes, etc. have no mention of Atlas unfortunately. The only real mentions I can find online are blogs who have posted the album. Sounds like that's the only way to get it right now unless you know the band, so ch-ch-check it.

NuttyBanana wrote:

For the record though I really really detest this kind of music.
Why is this still happening? If you really really detest this kind of music, why open the link at all? You just needed something to complain about?
Posted: Mon, 15th Nov 2010, 12:57am

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Thrawn

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Aculag wrote:


NuttyBanana wrote:

For the record though I really really detest this kind of music.
Why is this still happening? If you really really detest this kind of music, why open the link at all? You just needed something to complain about?
...Because Atom told us to watch the video regardless of what we think of Kanye or the music.. Suggesting that the artistic merit would make us forget the fact that we dislike the music. Apparently this wasn't the case for NuttyBanana. He gave it a try and he didn't like the music. Big deal. Take a chill pill and get over it.
Posted: Mon, 15th Nov 2010, 12:58am

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Aculag

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Thrawn wrote:

...Because Atom told us to watch the video regardless of what we think of Kanye or the music...
Do you do everything Atom tells you to? Besides, I'm pretty sure he just gave a positive review of it, and didn't actually tell anyone to put aside their feelings about rap to better enjoy a rap video.
Posted: Mon, 15th Nov 2010, 2:21am

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rogolo

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Just finished the album. Easily my #2 or tied #1 album of the year. A bit indulgent (average song length looks to hover around 5-6 minutes), but it totally works. 'Monster' and 'Hell Of A Life' are rather middling (when compared to the rest of the album), but every other song is really tops. 'Lost in The World' felt like the final number of a Broadway musical, with lush backing and callbacks/motifs to the other songs.

Damn, that was a good album. (Though that Chris Rock bit is gonna get old reallly fast wink )

Oh, and does anyone actually like the album art? Seems to be there purely for shock value/publicity, and honestly looks like a racist third grader drew what he think sex looks like. Feels just....dumb. unsure
Posted: Mon, 15th Nov 2010, 7:47am

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Atom

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Because Bob Dylan rambling in a mumble-whisper about hating authority, being jobless, and doing drugs- while playing a harmonica- is so much more musically gifted and better than someone rapping about getting money. rolleyes

This isn't 1992 and gangster rap isn't the status quo. Arguably the two or three biggest, at least certainly the most popular of rappers out there right now are Jay-Z, Kanye, and well, Eminem.

You know the common theme amongst all their last albums? Redemption. Starting anew, recovering, and being better. If you want to blankly talk in a flagrantly racist, classicist, and stereotypical manner about rap, get your shirt straight at least.

I'm not naming any obscure or boutique rappers as the 'good exception to the rule'- I'm saying just point-blank look at the most widely-recognized and profitable names in rap currently. Maybe add Drake, I guess, and there you've got it.

The industry standards of rap artists- are they talking about anything more vulgar, perverse, or unsavory lifestyle-wise than any other artist from any other genre out there? I mean, really?
Posted: Mon, 15th Nov 2010, 12:01pm

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NuttyBanana

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Aaaah I was being racist.... I knew there was a reason I shouldn't have posted. Regardless to the overall themes, the content still remains from what I've heard and remember, I'm only referring to the popular songs.

I wasn't being stereotypical either. It just seems that our moronic youth these days make these parts of rap more popular than others.
Posted: Mon, 15th Nov 2010, 9:36pm

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spydurhank

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Really guys!? You know that those of us that don't like rap took a peek at the video because Atom liked said video enough to post it? You should know, because I've said this already.

I can't tell you not to be angry or not to get all defensive when you see negative posts about your video but gawd damn it man... Don't post things like this if you only want to hear good things about it because... that's just not going to happen and you must be seriously naive or delusional to believe that it would.

Maybe you should change the title to "for rap guys only" or something to that nature. That way everyone else will steer clear and you'll see nothing but positive posts.
I just see no mature reason for you guys to be angry over an honest opinion. Make sense? But honestly... I would check out mostly anything that you may post a link to Atom... why? Because that's the kind of guy I am, I may not like it but that's not going to stop me from checking it out. biggrin
Posted: Mon, 15th Nov 2010, 10:02pm

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Serpent

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I think people were getting the vibe that others were popping in just to say 'I watched a very very small portion of it, and quit. I hate this genre in its entirety, including this.' When that pretty much sums up how some view the rap genre, at a glance and all. It's not about positive/negative. Personally I don't care, as long as the next topic doesn't go south too too fast. Or just enough south to be enjoyable.
Posted: Mon, 15th Nov 2010, 10:16pm

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Atom

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Someone saying they detest something because it talks about beating women and shooting guns isn't an opinion, though- be it negative or positive. It's just outright, factually wrong. Untrue.

And it is, truly, insulting to hear.
Posted: Mon, 15th Nov 2010, 10:24pm

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NuttyBanana

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Atom wrote:

Someone saying they detest something because it talks about beating women and shooting guns isn't an opinion, though- be it negative or positive. It's just outright, factually wrong. Untrue.

And it is, truly, insulting to hear.
Hang on. Me saying that I don't like the rap because 'it talks about beating women and shooting guns' isn't my opinion, but is factually wrong? Maybe I read something wrong at some point. If my taste in music offends you then I'm not sure what to say.

I'm gonna back out of the thread now though as it's a little weird/touchy. Maybe I should rephrase my original post...

I gave up after 7 minutes as I didn't like the video. It was too stretched out from the start and I got bored, even with the feathered lady around. It didn't help that the music isn't to my taste but I gave the video a shot. Even with different music I wouldn't have enjoyed the video which is saying alot considering the quality of the face huggers that were presented in the part I did watch.
Posted: Mon, 15th Nov 2010, 10:43pm

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ben3308

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The problem is that the generalization being made isn't racist or clasicist, it's vapid and uninformed. It reveals an ignorance - a persistent, stubborn one at that - that's frankly insulting to the intelligence of those that enjoy rap and hip-hop.

There are a variety of underlying sociological issues here that I don't expect to be resolved in this forum, because all of American (and, by extension, world) society has spent centuries working toward resolution on them with only minimal effort. The Rolling Stones did heroin and slept with underage girls because, for the time, it was moderately appropriate. In the early 90's, African-Americans in high population densities in New York and Los Angeles rose up and found rap as a form they'd received from Puerto Ricans in Brooklyn a decade prior to communicate their problem and voice, through poetry, the problems they had with society. Some used high production values and a mainstream approach to get their music (and message) out there (Tupac and Biggie, NaS). Others (Dead Prez, NWA, Public Enemy) used a more 'militarized' lyrical style to convey the intensity and dire nature of their words. It's these latter groups that soured many (read: white people) on rap, because of the more violent nature of their words and the callous attitude with which they treated them.

From that, more, younger rappers rose out of ignorance of what the gangster rappers were trying to do and took the genre into an area of feigned seriousness, posturing, and melodramatic opulence. This is where people like Mike Jones and Mannie Fresh - people who glamorize the objectification of women and casually speak of faux-gangster lifestyles -come in, and why a lot of people who enjoyed the heavy seriousness of rap in the nineties began to lament the genre.

But we're a whole decade beyond that. It's been a third of a century, veritably, since rap gathered ground, and things have progressed a lot - and so the archaic "oh, they're killing people and beating their wives" is foolish and misinformed.

The big rappers now or within recent years - Kanye West, Jay-Z, Eminem, Drake, TI, Lil Wayne - very few of them are even talking about violence in any way, and if they are, it's either sarcastic or founded in very serious social issues. Eminem has rapped about many brutal things in a comical way for most of his career because it's the best way to communicate the underlying wrong going on in his life. Just as, say, Irish novelist Jonathan Swift wrote 'A Modest Proposal' seriously poling fun at social wrong, so too do Eminem's words about spousal abuse, gun toting, et al speak about REAL issues. He's from Detroit, a city that America has basically flushed down the toilet. His former rap group, D12, has had it's members literally die by gunfire in the years since it's inception. So if he's rapping about things that are violent or brutal - it's ALWAYS in a tactful way, and it's always founded in some derivative truth.

Back to Kanye West. Jesus Christ, the guy is so far from ever talking about beating women or any of that, it's laughable that it would even be brought up. He's almost transcended the genre, in that his stuff isn't about partying or smoking marijuana - which, surprise, surprise, is what most rap is actually involved in these days; but bringing THAT up as a fundamental 'wrong' wouldn't make sense on this forum, because most others here find that acceptable. Kanye has only ever really spoken about irony in the industry, his failings in college, and his mother. That's Kanye West in a nutshell. No killing, not raping, none of that.

Honestly, listen to "Lost in the World" and let me know what's 'bad' about that - musically, lyrically, or otherwise. Because I don't think others are opinionated - I just think the're wrong. And that's founded in latent assumptions lacking in objectivity and holding a large amount of ignorance. And I respond in this way because it's frustrating and demonstrates, to me at least, how far behind some of society is in it's acceptance of African-Americans. Because rap is a large, important facet of that culture, and it not going away anytime soon.

And yes, I realize this board is international, and I realize not everyone is a racist. I'm not saying anyone has made generalizations on the basis of race. I'm saying that there's a fundamental lack of understanding for the genre, and that it, maybeore than any genre of music of late, actually holds societal importance to a whole culture and race.
Posted: Mon, 15th Nov 2010, 11:24pm

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rogolo

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Nutty Banana - many of the rappers getting popular today (Kanye, Drake, Kid Cudi, Lupe Fiasco) grew up middle class and their music focuses more on the beats, lyricism, and wordplay than standard 'gangsta rap'. I'm not saying you have to like it, but to say you don't like rap (especially Kanye) because it's all about ' beating women and shooting guns' is laughable, because he actually raps about how he has never done anything like that.

Just ignore topics about rap if you have nothing constructive/interesting to say to contribute to a healthy discussion. For example, I rarely/never comment on the multitude of superhero/comic-related threads on here since I have little interest in them and my comments would be pretty worthless in a discussion - like many of the comments early in this thread. wink

BTW, your all-time favorite movie in your profile is Serenity, which shows violence visually. How is that worse than rhyming about violence? Violence is violence, whether its fantasy or based in reality.
Posted: Mon, 15th Nov 2010, 11:43pm

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Pooky

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Rogolo, you don't like Superheroes?!? smile

Ben, that was ridiculously long, but very well said. You actually changed my opinion.
Posted: Tue, 16th Nov 2010, 12:02am

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Thrawn

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rogolo wrote:


Just ignore topics about rap if you have nothing constructive/interesting to say to contribute to a healthy discussion. For example, I rarely/never comment on the multitude of superhero/comic-related threads on here since I have little interest in them and my comments would be pretty worthless in a discussion - like many of the comments early in this thread. wink

BTW, your all-time favorite movie in your profile is Serenity, which shows violence visually. How is that worse than rhyming about violence? Violence is violence, whether its fantasy or based in reality.
Nutty Bananna disagreed with you. Everyone needs to get over that. He sees rap in a different light than you guys, so what? I listen to some rap, both mainstream and underground, and I think it's ignorant to say that there isn't any violence/objectification-of-women/drug related topics in music. Sure, they may not be in the artists you listed (Kanye for instance) but it's still there. Sure, most popular artists have shied away from those subjects, but that's mostly why they're "mainstream". Their music and lyrics appeal to a large audience. But once again, it's a bit ignorant to say that those subjects don't exist anymore.

Second of all, Nutty Bananna has every right in the world to view and post in this thread. Granted, if he had simply commented without watching the video, for the sake of flaming, that'd be one thing. But he came in here, read Atom's post, gave the video a chance, and didn't like it. He has just as much as a right to express his opinion as you do yours, regardless of whether you agree with the original author. The only worthless post in this thread is the one I'm quoting.

Finally, violence in film is COMPLETELY different than violence in music. Firstly, music has a way of emotionally affecting an individual that film does not. A big reason for this is because the listener relates personally with the artist. He puts himself in the shoes of whoever is singing (or rapping, in this case) in his ear. In a movie, you're observing a cruel act. The film works your disgust of violence as a way to separate yourself from the antagonist and to have you relate more to the protagonist. So let's not point the finger of generalization if you yourself is doing the same thing.
Posted: Tue, 16th Nov 2010, 12:21am

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Pooky

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I think you have it wrong Thrawn. I do agree that everybody has a right to his own opinion: that is completely true as it is an unalienable right. But just as NuttyBanana has the right to say he thinks Rap is about the violence/objectification of women/drugs, Ben has a right to say he disagrees and point out why.

Nobody is really saying that it is wrong to like Rap and that NuttyBanana has no right to post here. It isn't and he does. What Ben explained in his last post is that he thinks NB's perception of Rap is not accurate. Perceptions are rooted in objectivism and facts, so Ben listen some of these facts and the way that he himself perceives the genre.

So basically, your argument here is a straw man - nobody is talking about the right to hate Rap, only that it's worth giving another shot and approaching it from the "right" angle.


Secondly, that third paragraph about violence in music being less acceptable than violence in movies is the most ridiculous thing anyone has said in this thread, and I don't think I even need to explain myself.
Posted: Tue, 16th Nov 2010, 12:30am

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rogolo

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Pooky wrote:

Rogolo, you don't like Superheroes?!? smile
Hehe, depends. If I watch any superhero movies, it's usually the bluest of blue chip heros (Spiderman, Batman, and the new Superman until I lost interest halfway thru wink). It took me a year to watch Iron Man (which I enjoyed), but something like Green Lantern, the Avengers, or Captain America doesn't hold too much sway with me. Keep in mind, I didn't grow up reading comics or playing with action figures smile

Thrawn wrote:

Lots of stuff
Of course people have the right to post, but I think thoughtful self-censorship is key in situations like this. Everyone has the right to say virtually everything they want, but does that mean they should? In the 5+ years I've been posting on these forums, I can't remember any rap threads that were allowed to reach the level of 'thoughtful discussion' before someone busted in and sidetracked it with the tired 'Rap music suxx!!'. It's just too bad that people who have definite bias against rap cannot help but post negatively every time a thread comes up.

And by now, I think these arguments are just tired and rehashed. I've said my bit, so imma peace out of this thread, yo. smile
Posted: Tue, 16th Nov 2010, 12:41am

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NuttyBanana

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rogolo wrote:

Nutty Banana - many of the rappers getting popular today (Kanye, Drake, Kid Cudi, Lupe Fiasco) grew up middle class and their music focuses more on the beats, lyricism, and wordplay than standard 'gangsta rap'. I'm not saying you have to like it, but to say you don't like rap (especially Kanye) because it's all about ' beating women and shooting guns' is laughable, because he actually raps about how he has never done anything like that.
I'd just like to point out that I never said I didn't like rap because of the content, I dislike it just because I dislike the style of music. I also agreed that not all rap is about that subject matter but felt that side of rap is what's been made popular in the genre, at least from my perspective.

It's pretty late here and the eyes are giving in to the sting, so I haven't gone through your post there Ben. Of course I'm not heading around here trying to offend anyone and I think my points have been knocked out of perspective a little. You think I'm ignorant and stubborn? Fair enough. Can we just agree to disagree on rap being the best music genre and call it quits maybe? This whole thing is getting too deep!

And cheers Thrawn for not running at me with the pitchfork biggrin
Posted: Tue, 16th Nov 2010, 12:42am

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Atom

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It'd be like if I walked into a Muse thread and said I detest their music because alternative-style rock openly represents punks, counter-culture, overthrowing the government, defacing the elderly, and worshipping the devil.

None of that is really true, but in my own mind I could probably pull those facets out of vague memories and feelings I have toward the genre, regardless of what- in all actuality- I'm hearing.

And you see, I'd face a ton of flack for that. Because it isn't a 'disagreement'. It's an insulting ignorance of mine, and it's on my own terms. It's not an opinion, it's just a false generalization, and any/everybody would have the right to call me on it.

Laughable, it really is, that you're so obtuse to repeat the words 'beating up women' after I mentioned it as a gravely startling and poor generalization, as if it's still just all gravy with 'what rap is', and that's what gives you some license to hate it.

Well, that's fine. Detest the music if you must- but detest it for the right reasons. And if not the right ones, well then just have the good sense to keep your mouth shut. Because speaking out of ignorance or on the basis of vague recollection almost always holds the potential to backfire in your face.

And that's what happening here.
Posted: Tue, 16th Nov 2010, 12:42am

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Thrawn

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Pooky, my goodness, please read my post. My thoughts were directed towards Rogolo, not Ben. Ben certainly has a right to express his opinion. I'd even partially agree with a lot of his thoughts. So please read my post without jumping to conclusions and taking it the wrong way. And a -1 was hardly necessarily.

About rap in music and movies, I never argued one portrayal of violence being more "acceptable" than the other. I was simply stating that there was a difference. Some are comfortable watching violence on television, while others aren't comfortable listening to a description through rap or other music. I can see how you misunderstood though, but once again, hardly worth the -1.

Rogolo, all I have to say to that is that you need to get over the fact that some people don't like rap, and regardless of how "biased" someone is, they have a right to discuss a topic as long as they aren't flaming and it's somewhat topical. This was topical, and he didn't flame. End of story.
Posted: Tue, 16th Nov 2010, 12:48am

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Atom

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Being unintentionally, naively ignorant and offensive is still being ignorant and offensive, Thrawn. Hopefully you can see where the distinction is, and understand why certain words can conjure such strong, passionate responses in this thread.
Posted: Tue, 16th Nov 2010, 12:53am

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NuttyBanana

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Atom I've said all along I dislike the music, not the genre because of the content. I haven't repeated anything about the content of the music over and over again either.

You keep labelling me ignorant yet you're ignoring what I'm saying. This whole thing is just scooping into being ridiculous. Just get over it for crying out loud.
Posted: Tue, 16th Nov 2010, 12:55am

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Thrawn

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Atom wrote:

Being unintentionally, naively ignorant and offensive is still being ignorant and offensive, Thrawn. Hopefully you can see where the distinction is, and understand why certain words can conjure such strong, passionate responses in this thread.
Please, Atom, could you point out my ignorance and my area of offense? Or were you perhaps referring to Nutty Banana?
Posted: Tue, 16th Nov 2010, 1:03am

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Atom

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NuttyBanana, you said you detested rap because it glorifies beating women and shooting people. That is content. Now, if this opinion has changed, that's another story- but that's something you've yet to clarify. Thrawn, you backed him up- and defended the point of detest multiple times- without deciphering between opinion and perspective.

Surely you're not both just completely oblivious to this?
Posted: Tue, 16th Nov 2010, 1:07am

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Pooky

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Hold on, stop the presses - can we all agree that Thrawn and NuttyBanana don't like the SOUND of Rap, prefer melody to lyricism, and admit not really knowing enough about the Rap subculture itself to form a proper judgement? I'm pretty sure that's what everybody is trying to say.
Posted: Tue, 16th Nov 2010, 1:14am

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NuttyBanana

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No I didn't say that. I said I detest the music separately to that comment, and have done so multiple times.

The original statement I made about the content was a reference to someone else's post. For some reason when I wrote that I'd got it in my head that someone had compared rap to Bob Dylan being offensive but on trying to find it I'm beginning to think I'd mixed a couple of posts up.... the joys of late night reading. A mix up on my part maybe but one that's been dragged out of context and bashed on by you to the point where you actually start calling me ignorant. I dunno, maybe all of your big words threw me off course in life.
Posted: Tue, 16th Nov 2010, 1:18am

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Thrawn

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Pooky wrote:

Hold on, stop the presses - can we all agree that Thrawn and NuttyBanana don't like the SOUND of Rap, prefer melody to lyricism, and admit not really knowing enough about the Rap subculture itself to form a proper judgement? I'm pretty sure that's what everybody is trying to say.
Hey Pooky, do me a favor and read my posts. Honestly, this is the second time you've made assumptions that do not line up with what I've posted. I find it incredibly rude and insulting.

As I stated before, I listen to rap. I like rap. I bought Eminem's new album the first day it was released. I'm a fan of Jay-Z and many other rap artists. It's not my favorite genre, but over 10% of my music on my iPod is rap. I just think that you guys are overreacting to the fact that Nutty Banana disagrees, which apparently makes me ignorant and offensive.
Posted: Tue, 16th Nov 2010, 1:30am

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NuttyBanana

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I actually like rap, just not the music these guys are defending so hard. I love limp biscuit, linkin park and others like that - whether you'd consider those bands as rap artists or not I don't know but I think rap is a part of their act. I think I've said all along that it's the music I don't like, more the hip-hop than rap.
Posted: Tue, 16th Nov 2010, 1:32am

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spydurhank

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Well, it's the same as you saying that you don't like something that I really, really like... but the only differance between you and I is, that I'm not going to get all defensive about it. Why? Because there really is no earthly reason for "me" to get "angry" with "you" because we have differant musical tastes.

I'm trying to understand your reasoning so bear a little with my questions and comments.

Someone threw out the rascist card already so I wonder... why is someone that doesn't like rap a rascist? That's pretty damned stupid to say because I'm 100% sure I'm not a rascist just like I'm 100% sure that I don't like rap.
or...
they are automatically ignorant or naive and that's your answer as to why they don't like rap in the 1st place, I'm not ignorant nor am I naive.
or...
look at the style of music you like first before you put down rap... even blaming "other" rappers... just not the ones that they like for the bad reputation that has fallen rap.

There's something stupid going on that's labeled with every style of music and that's nothing new. It just seems that in every conversation that I have on this subject, The guys that like rap, complain the most and play the whole "woe is me, the world is against me" thing.
You see, no one is attacking you when they say they don't like rap, they are not insulting you so why in the blue hell are you getting so damned defensive about it? So if you can give me a little insight as to why all the hoopla? That would be great. Yeah so please let me know.

On a side note... I played that video for my friend Cortney who actually really likes rap and is a sound tech ... even she said that the video was really bad on many artistic levels.
Posted: Tue, 16th Nov 2010, 1:33am

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Aculag

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I say pie is better than cake. There can clearly be no debate about this fact.
Posted: Tue, 16th Nov 2010, 2:48am

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Pooky

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Aculag, the problem is that the generalization being made isn't racist or clasicist, it's vapid and uninformed. It reveals an ignorance - a persistent, stubborn one at that - that's frankly insulting to the intelligence of those that enjoy cake.

There are a variety of underlying sociological issues here that I don't expect to be resolved in this forum, because all of American (and, by extension, world) society has spent centuries working toward resolution on them with only minimal effort. Pillsbury did corn sugar and slept with underage girls because, for the time, it was moderately appropriate. In the early 90's, African-Americans in high population densities in New York and Los Angeles rose up and baked cake according to a recipe they'd received from Puerto Ricans in Brooklyn a decade prior to communicate their problem and voice, through pastry, the problems they had with society. Some used complex icing designs and a mainstream approach to get their cooking (and message) out there (Tupac and Biggie, NaS). Others (Dead Prez, NWA, Public Enemy) used a more 'militarized' baking style to convey the intensity and dire nature of their kitchens. It's these latter groups that soured many (read: white people) on cake, because of the less healthy nature of their pastries and the callous attitude with which they treated ingedients.

From that, more, younger cake makers rose out of ignorance of what the gangster bakers were trying to do and took the genre into an area of feigned seriousness, posturing, and melodramatic opulence. This is where people like Mike Jones and Mannie Fresh - people who glamorize the abuse of icing and casually speak of trans fat -come in, and why a lot of people who enjoyed the heavy seriousness of cake in the nineties began to lament the pastry.

But we're a whole decade beyond that. It's been a third of a century, veritably, since cake gathered ground, and things have progressed a lot - and so the archaic "oh, they're killing people and beating their eggs" is foolish and misinformed.

The big bakers now or within recent years - Kanye West, Jay-Z, Eminem, Drake, TI, Lil Wayne - very few of them are even talking about corn sugar in any way, and if they are, it's either sarcastic or founded in very serious kitchen issues. Eminem has baked cakes themed around many brutal things in a comical way for most of his career because it's the best way to communicate the underlying wrong going on in his kitchen. Just as, say, Irish novelist Jonathan Swift wrote 'A Modest Proposal' seriously poling fun at social wrong, so too do Eminem's recipes with overindulgent icing, lots of fat, et al speak about REAL issues. He's from Detroit, a city that America has basically flushed down the toilet. His former cooking class, D12, has had it's members literally die by gunfire in the years since it's inception. So if he's cooking with things that are violent or brutal - it's ALWAYS in a tactful way, and it's always founded in some derivative truth.

Back to Kanye West. Jesus Christ, the guy is so far from ever talking about cholesterol levels or any of that, it's laughable that it would even be brought up. He's almost transcended the genre, in that his stuff isn't about pretty icing designs or baking in marijuana - which, surprise, surprise, is what most cake baking is actually involved in these days; but bringing THAT up as a fundamental 'wrong' wouldn't make sense on this forum, because most others here find that acceptable. Kanye has only ever really baked themed cakes about irony in the industry, his failings in college, and his mother. That's Kanye West in a nutshell. No trans fat, no fake flavouring, none of that.

Honestly, go eat a Krusteaz Crumb cake and let me know what's 'bad' about that - taste-wise, texture-wise, or otherwise. Because I don't think others are opinionated - I just think the're wrong. And that's founded in latent assumptions lacking in objectivity and holding a large amount of ignorance. And I respond in this way because it's frustrating and demonstrates, to me at least, how far behind some of society is in its acceptance of cake bakers. Because cake is a large, important facet of that culture, and it not going away anytime soon.

And yes, I realize this board is international, and I realize not everyone is a pie purist. I'm not saying anyone has made generalizations on the basis of pastry. I'm saying that there's a fundamental lack of understanding for the dish, and that it, maybeore than any type of pastry of late, actually holds societal importance to a whole culture and race.
Posted: Tue, 16th Nov 2010, 9:37am

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Simon K Jones

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Post of the Week Award goes to Pooky for that one. razz


All the way through this topic there have been two separate things that keep getting tangled up:

1. Opinions on rap. It is perfectly fine to love rap music. It is perfectly fine to hate rap music. And anything in between. Opinions are opinions and nobody should get too worried about them, although healthy debate is always fun.

2. A strange determination to dismiss the entire genre as being unworthy of being called 'music', based on very limited information and a poor understanding of the genre. I don't really understand this attitude or where it's coming from.

Atom's Muse analogy was pretty spot on.

Last edited Wed, 24th Nov 2010, 10:37am; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Tue, 23rd Nov 2010, 10:51pm

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Atom

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Just wanted to go ahead and mention that the album this video derives from, My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy, was released yesterday.

Unsurprising to me at least, it's been lauded everywhere. For those that 'don't like rap'- maybe look at the widely-considered and reveled 'masterpiece' status this album has reached in such a small amount of time already to see how the genre can be transcendental of a certain clientele. They aren't just not hating it, people are loving this. Praising it as a hallmark, pretty universally. Even people who've disliked West in the past.

I mean, it's not every day that an album get a perfect score review in every major music magazine. Let alone a rap/hip-hop one.

But here we are. Pitchfork and Rolling Stone, to name a few.

So yeah. wink
Posted: Wed, 24th Nov 2010, 9:20am

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Simon K Jones

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Atom wrote:

I mean, it's not every day that an album get a perfect score review in every major music magazine. Let alone a rap/hip-hop one.
Yeah, but what if I don't like guns and drugs and beating up women?

wink
Posted: Wed, 24th Nov 2010, 10:30am

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Sollthar

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Heh, lot of agreeing and disagreeing and feeling superior for being so open-minded going on in this thread. smile

Please, don't stop. I find this thread much better then the music or the video it's about!
Posted: Wed, 24th Nov 2010, 11:37am

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Atom

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Open-mindedness is always superior to rigid ignorance or stubborn fear, loathing, or misunderstanding. It's nothing to feel is the case. It is the case.

And sadly Tarn, I doubt it. Far too many of those very same facets. And murdering, too. Because that's all this is about, obviously.
Posted: Wed, 24th Nov 2010, 11:55am

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Sollthar

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God has spoken! In italics even. So it must be fact.
Posted: Thu, 25th Nov 2010, 10:05am

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NuttyBanana

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You're still trying to convince everyone to like this? Atom just let it go. Going on at people for having a different taste is plain silly. Who cares if people have a bad/wrong perception of the music you enjoy? It's not hurting Kanye, his music or his sales.

It does appear to be well received but I couldn't care less for reviews from magazines. It takes all to make a world and that review is one mans/woman's taste and opinion.

You'd probably detest the music I enjoy but I'm not going to grab your arm and drag you into the mosh pit until you submit.

Can you also quit going on about ignorance? it doesn't help that parts of the discussion and been taken out of their original meaning and twisted to support your own argument. If you can't be bothered to read everything through then quit hitting the ignorance button on other people.

Maybe start up a new thread for the album release and continue to have a decent discussion with other fans there.
Posted: Thu, 25th Nov 2010, 5:20pm

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Sollthar

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You're still trying to convince everyone to like this?
Actually he isn't doing that. At least I don't think so.

He just seems convinced of his own open mindedness and of other peoples ignorance. And that the fact that "lots of people like something" has any sort of weight.
Posted: Thu, 25th Nov 2010, 5:21pm

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Simon K Jones

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Sollthar wrote:

He just seems convinced of his own open mindedness and of other peoples ignorance. And that the fact that "lots of people like something" has any sort of weight.
Well, "lots of people like something" does have a lot of weight.

Just look at how powerful religion is.

Whether it has anything to do with the quality of the item is another matter entirely, of course. razz

Last edited Thu, 25th Nov 2010, 5:30pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Thu, 25th Nov 2010, 5:29pm

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Sollthar

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Heh, we should hold a twist peoples words contest. I bet we'd all be rather good at it. biggrin

That's the matter I meant since I was and still am under the impression that that's the context the argument was used in. "Many people like X" has no weight on how "good" X is as far as I'm concerned. Nothing has weight on how good X is other then my own opinion of it. (I'm talking about musicvideos, just so that this isn't twisted into a universal statement valid in every other context...) biggrin

Many people like something has weight in different contexts though, sure. Like religion. But we're not talking about religion, are we? smile
Posted: Thu, 25th Nov 2010, 5:31pm

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Simon K Jones

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Probably best not to. wink
Posted: Fri, 26th Nov 2010, 9:22am

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Klut

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I haven't read the whole thread, but I felt like I should say a few things.

Two years ago I decided it's about time that I learn to like rap and hip-hop. It didn't take me long. I just listened to some albums, focused on everything I liked about it and read about the artists. Now I like rap and hip-hop, though I'm not really a fan. Why would I force myself to like something? Well, I want to become an artist myself. I want to study composing, and I figured it would probably be a good thing to like everything in music. And I do, though I'm not a fan of everything.

I'm a fan of music and musicians who are more like me. Who would have guessed?
I prefer musicians who have practiced everyday for hours. Musicians who have worked hard to get good at their instruments, and had fun doing it. Some hot chick who just learned how to almost sing in pitch, will not amaze me. Nor some guy who should have been a poet, but descided to but a more tight rythm to the way he reads his poems and started rapping instead.
I like it, I really do. I even like to rap myself. But it doens't really impress me more than people who are good at Guitar Hero.

-----

Music is all about feelings. If you can't feel it, you are likely to not like it. I'm not really able to feel like a badass mother ***king gangster YO, but I've had drama since I was ten years old, so I've learned to fake feeling. When I listen to rap, I pretend I'm the artist. If I don't pretend, I'm not able to enjoy hip-hop at all. Probably because when I was a teenager, anyone who listened to hip-hop, would also be the ones who beat up people at parties and were generally awful people.

Music is also very simular to human beings. Some people you will like from the very start, some people you have to make an effort to become friends with, some people are crazy, some people are sexy and some people you are not able to like, no matter how hard you try. You just don't get them.

So if you have read a lot about music and psychology, you might be able to know a lot about people, just by knowing what music they like.
Posted: Fri, 26th Nov 2010, 7:26pm

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Aculag

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Klut wrote:

But it doens't really impress me more than people who are good at Guitar Hero.
This is just baffling. You seem to respect hip-hop as a genre, but then you make the same generalizations that others have in here, making it seem like you don't even think it qualifies as real music. SOME hip-hop requires very little talent, yes. But MUCH of it requires just as much talent as musicians in any other genre have. So Kanye isn't a classically trained singer, and he can't shred on guitar, but this kind of music isn't about that, it's about the expressiveness of the compositions, and the wordplay in the lyrics, and the compositions on display here are masterful.

A classical composer can't play every instrument in his orchestra, but he knows what goes well with what, and where things need to be. He can arrange the composition in a way that will be considered brilliant for hundreds of years, without knowing how to play a single note. Now, I am in no way saying Kanye's music will be remembered for hundreds of years, but the comparison fits, because he is a damn fine composer, and the music reflects that. It doesn't matter if he played it himself or not.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, and I hope I am, because as a musician, you should realize these things. wink I understand that you prefer a different kind of music, and I do too, but I don't see how you can say that good hip-hop requires any less skill than good [insert genre here] does. It just requires a different SET of skills. Just as an example, country music doesn't impress me at all. I hate it, in fact, but I'm not going to say that it requires less talent than a kind of music that I prefer, because that's simply untrue.
Posted: Fri, 26th Nov 2010, 7:34pm

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Pooky

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I'd actually make the argument that skill with an instrument and quality of the music has no correlation whatsoever. Obviously a certain minimum level is required to be able to play good music, and obviously sometimes prodigal skill can go hand in hand with amazing music.

BUT, if you look at a band like The Beatles and compare them to Dragonforce or something, it sounds like the latter are doing something that's really really hard to do with their instruments, whereas The Beatles experiment a lot but keep it relatively simple. Yet The Beatles produce arguably much much better music.

Another example is the "Experience Jimi Hendrix Tour" that I went to see Live recently, with a bunch of famous guitarists and Steve Vai and such. The guitar skill on display was MINDBLOWING, but it was too much. 70% o the time was spend on blazing solos that deviated from the source material, and the musical quality was lost in the sea of instrumental skill.

So yeah, what do you guys think?
Posted: Fri, 26th Nov 2010, 7:35pm

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Aculag

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Agreed completely, Pooky. It's all about the compositions.
Posted: Fri, 26th Nov 2010, 9:47pm

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NuttyBanana

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It's simply a matter of taste I'd say.

Would I be wrong in assuming that Kanye wasn't the only person involved in creating his music and calling him masterful may be a little over the top? A composer at a live show is alone up there with the orchestra. I can only assume Kanye isn't alone when his music is being put together along with the aid of whatever computer equipment may be used. That same statement applies to most music though so it's not a hit at Kanye specifically.

It's pointless comparing artists to say who's producing better music, who are better musicians etc as again, it's all about taste. As shocking as it may seem, I'm not that much of a fan of the Beatles so a comparison against them could go either way in my eye.

I dunno, I think I'm going to just repeat myself if I carry on but I think I got my point in there somewhere!
Posted: Fri, 26th Nov 2010, 10:09pm

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Pooky

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Yeah, sorry if I wasn't clear, but what I said was that taste is the only thing that matters. There is no objective way of determining how good music is based on factors like skill with an instrument or how crazy the artist is.

Anyway let's turn this around: so what DO you like? Any cool bands I might not know about?
Posted: Fri, 26th Nov 2010, 11:07pm

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doppelganger

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For those that don't think hip-hop takes talent: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBb0yh-pZOM&feature=related (?uestlove is such a badass!) & http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uCyv05SG1g (mellow Flying Lotus)

It'd also serve you well to look up J Dilla, Flying Lotus, A Tribe Called Quest, The Roots, Madlib, Black Star, Mos Def, Dimlite, Biggie Smalls, Slum Village, Binary Star, Dabrye, etc... there are tons. There has always been garbage hip-hop but its that way with any genre, you have to find the good and you won't find it by listening to the radio...

Last edited Sat, 27th Nov 2010, 8:26am; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Fri, 26th Nov 2010, 11:19pm

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Thrawn

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doppelganger wrote:


It'd also serve you well to look up J Dilla, Flying Lotus, A Tribe Called Quest, The Roots, Madlib, Black Star, Mos Def, Dimlite, Biggie Smalls, Slum Village, Binary Star, Dabrye, etc... there are tons. There has always been garbage hip-hop but its that way with any genre, you have to find the good and you won't find it by listening to the radio...
Seconded those in bold, especiall Mos Def. Also check out MF Doom.
Posted: Sat, 27th Nov 2010, 1:47am

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NuttyBanana

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doppelganger wrote:

For those that don't think hip-hop takes talent: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBb0yh-pZOM&feature=related (?uestlove is such a badass!) & http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uCyv05SG1g
From looking at your comments I think you obviously posted with wrong links. I kid I kid! Honestly though I'd rather listen to Kanye than either of those 2 link you posted, they didn't really do it for me.
Posted: Sat, 27th Nov 2010, 3:45am

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doppelganger

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Kanye is definitely more accessible than both The Roots and Flying Lotus, I posted in terms of talent. Kanye used to be a talented producer (opinion obviously) but then something happened with 808 and now he just sounds terrible all around. Kanye takes samples from talented producers (Pete Rock, Madlib, J Dilla) and then raps about himself over them. He did this on his newest album more than any of his others and even though I love the producers he took from I still think the production on Twisted Fantasy is pretty terrible sounding. He also managed to get some of my favorite emcee's Q-Tip and Mos Def on the album... and I still hate it

My rant is over smile

And MF DOOM is an acquired taste haha. I don't like him haha
Posted: Sat, 27th Nov 2010, 7:37am

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Sollthar

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Personally I don't think to rap doesn't need skill. It does need a certain set of speech and rhythm skills, definately!

It just doesn't impress me much. Someone able to talk fast and clear and with a certain rhythm to it is not a skill I'm particularly impressed by. Might also be because that kind of thing is part of pretty much every acting training and I know far too many people who can do it and like with actors, some just have a certain je-ne-says-quoi about them that transcends well to others despite how well they're doing the whole skill thing technically and that's also nothing I'm impressed by because it's not something they did anything for.

And musically, I stand by my impression that what happens in most rap and hip hop songs from a composition complexity standpoint is incredibly simple. Simple can be fun, sure, but it's like McDonalds. It's often musical fast food compared to classical music or a good modern orchestral arrangement. It also doesn't impress me much.

The fact that I disagree with some of the text and / or attitude is also a factor. I think every piece of music transports a certain "feeling". And pretty much all rap and hip hop I've heard transport a feeling I have zero connection to. And it transports content and lyrics I don't agree with.
Hence I prefer music where no one sings or raps or says anything. If it has text, I need to agree with the lyrics, otherwise I don't like listening to it. I just tick that way. Fortunately, in most orchestral tracks, they don't have lyrics. Perfect for me. wink

And taste does the rest.


I would use Rap and Hip Hop in a film to describe a character or a mood, probably use it very much in the sense that atom would deem "stereotypical". But I wouldn't listen to it in my private life. It doesn't "click" with me.

But I'm open to it. If I wasn't, I would have never clicked the link in this thread in the first place. Or doppelgangers links.
Posted: Sat, 27th Nov 2010, 9:37pm

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Serpent

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Musical Fast food? Rappers are given just as infinite a set of tools as anyone else. One could even rap over classical music. A rapper can employ the most complex literary concepts of all time. It's a totally separate art medium, and that is just another silly comparison that knocks rap down as "less" than other music.

Maybe your point is that "most don't." Where is this group of "most" that you are pooling from? I can't imagine you've heard much rap, so that question is kind of rhetorical. There are far less symphony composers in the world currently, as it takes a lot of music theory and academic study to become one. I don't see how that takes anything away from anything else, or other artists in the world. You can just as easily reduce the western classical genres to series of formulas, scales, etc. and say that IT is a musical happy meal, because it doesn't dare to employ spoken language. Even though the motifs and movements etc., as you know, can bring out emotions that words can't. A rapper is a poet, a different kind of artist.

Also, most people aren't impressed by the actual act of rapping the words either. Most well-liked rappers have the voice for it, but the hook is the poetry, the flow, the character, etc. I didn't find those impressive either, in word saying abilities, and rarely do I ever. Impressive rap performance generally comes from freestyle rapping (little to no prep/writing beforehand), or the presentation of the song.

I'm not trying to do another "you don't get it" post, or qualify any one medium or genre over another, but I am going to qualify the genre of rap after you knocked it. I get that you are more impressed by complex compositions, but that's just not the point of rap, and that certainly doesn't make rap a simple musical happy meal when compared to any other genre that employs other tools.

I doubt rap will ever do anything for you, and I'd go as far as to say "don't bother." I'm glad you're open to new things, but you don't relate to the culture, and you don't appreciate much lyricism of any kind. I just don't see it. If you ever do come across rap that you appreciate, that will be the day. smile Be sure to let us know, I'd be shocked.

Basically, not trying to be argumentative here or debunk an opinion or anything like that, I'm sure you still feel the same way. You can think rap is mostly a collection of simple happy meals if you want, but it often holds up against anything else in my eyes and I don't think such a sweeping comment holds any kind of relevance. Personally, artists in other genres happen to appeal more to me, but there is brilliance going on in the rap world. From the amount and impressiveness I've heard out of the rap genre, I now view rap as I do "rock and roll" basically, or any genre (which I think is more what Klut meant), and see that potential in it. Personally I'm just a general music lover, and the rap I love certainly aren't all just happy meals of songs to me, and I like a lot of complex music, including classical. Also rap is much newer, which is probably worth mentioning.

Anyways, I'm going to give this new album a listen, I mostly dislike Kanye's music, for the most part, but I've heard nothing but good things. Will post back when I'm done.
Posted: Sat, 27th Nov 2010, 10:47pm

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Atom

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Lost in the World by Kanye West.

That's pure, grand orchestration, both musical and lyrical, more than it ever is 'rap'.
Posted: Sat, 27th Nov 2010, 10:57pm

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Thrawn

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doppelganger wrote:


And MF DOOM is an acquired taste haha. I don't like him haha
And here I was thinking you appreciated rap... wink

EDIT: And here's another thought on Kanye: His outbursts sort of annoy me, which makes it difficult to enjoy his music. From his racism accusations during Katrina, to his VMA interruption, to his consistently obnoxious tweets, it's really hard to go buy his music. Sort of the same deal with Mel Gibson movies, even though my problems with Kanye can't even compare to Mel Gibsons issues.

Most would probably disagree.
Posted: Sun, 28th Nov 2010, 2:15am

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Pooky

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Serpent, lemme turn that around and play devil's advocate, here - have you listened to much classical music? Do you know how ridiculously complex, intellectual, demanding and technical it can be? Can you tell any two composers' styles apart? Do you even like listening to the genre as more than ambient music?

I don't, but I'm betting Sollthar does. I think Classical is the one genre that we can actually single out from all others as one that is far above everything else in precision and finesse. It's very hard to get into, I'm sure, but I don't think there's any kind of music that is as nuanced as Classical. I think the "Rap is just as hard!" argument only really applies when you compare it to the other kinds of music.

I do think Rap is different from most other music in that it's much more about words and lyrics and much less about melody and harmony.

I'd say Rap is to music as poetry is to storytelling.
Posted: Sun, 28th Nov 2010, 2:52am

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Serpent

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I studied violin for 6 years and have been listening to classical music since I was 6 years old. My first CD was a classical variety mix, and I grew up on cliassical music and soundtracks. I have multiple classical and instrumental playlists, I have the works of multiple classical composers, and listen to it as much as any other genre. I've also had pianos in my family and have been exposed to a lot of music theory just through basic family members. So I understand the complexity of it, I've attempted basic level stuff myself and it blows my mind how deep it can get. I understand that it often requires a genius musical mind to even be able to do. And I understand that the composers of their time were savants in the musical language. To me that just doesn't matter as much, and that kind of thing obviously has no weight on how the music actually affects me. Also, "McDonalds" implied pre-made, templated, processed meats, poor quality and service, delivery, etc., in the realm of the food industry.

My point was, it's a different set of art elements, and complex, personal, beautiful, meaningful, etc. etc. on different levels. Mind, I am referring to the entirety of the rap genre, I tend to avoid most main stream. Which may be this "most" Sollthar is referring to. But even then, my point remains the same: the potential is there. Mainstream modern western classical is mediocre and repetitive too, despite how much the composer had to study to get there. Rap is more like the Sushi of the food industry, rather than McDonalds. It's a different format, doesn't appeal to everyone, but it can be every bit as complex as 5-star-western-chef food.

The rappers who are artists started writing this kind of stuff since they were young. It's their passion and culture. They study, practice, and they have talent and artistic merit. Their songs often mean something to them on another level, and that's what sets apart the rap artists from the pop musicians. Same thing goes for classical music, sculpting, painting, what have you. There will always be the tools and frauds.

I think all of these analogies to other art/food are a little pointless. "The Aeneid" of classic literature is considered one of the greatest literary works of all time; storytelling in the form of a poem. Except it's MUCH MUCH MUCH more complex to write than any kind of narrative storytelling, and requires much more studying.

In fact, poetry is more like classical music! Poetry follows a set of rules for the rhythm, and it has to follow it perfectly well across the course of hundreds of pages. It has a set of motifs that repeat over the course of history within that style (much like the elements of classical music). In the Latin, Virgil managed to keep the same 2 line rhythm over the course of thousands and thousands and thousands of lines, telling an extremely complex story, with an absurd vocabulary. And that's how every epic poet had to write their poetry. Despite that, I prefer modern narratives, some that pretentious literary critics might even scoff at. But their pretentiousness is blinding, in my eyes.

Short poetry, again, has just as much artistic merit. It's just different. I don't care if it took the artist 50 years of mental prep to write the 4 line poem, or 50 minutes. It's all in the work. To me art is art, and how we label it is just for categorization purposes. That doesn't make the 4 line poem a happy meal, it could be the person's most personal work (trust me, not the case for any McDonalds chef).

My point echoes other's, such as Aculag's, in that the difficulty of execution doesn't necessarily correlate with the artistic merit or complexity or anything like that. Nor does length or any silly variable like that. All just variables.


I don't really understand why you feel the need to play devil's advocate and force me to back myself up like that to be honest, but hopefully I've explained myself better (probably not, but this is the best I can do). I don't tend to post ignorantly on this forum, and wouldn't post something without having a basis for my opinion. What I was saying was fairly simple, just in that rap, now, has as much merit as anything else. I wanted to avoid all kind of comparison altogether, by the categorization of the art because it's somewhat irrelevant (though as specificity increases, as does the relevance).

I never said one genre was any more or less complex or difficult than another. Why is everyone so caught up on that aspect of music? Must be a musician thing. If that's what it takes to do it for you, then by all means stick to classical. In Sollthar's case, he seems to have found a very fitting genre for his personality, and the complex instrumentals just move him that way. Certainly ain't me, I have absurd music ADD and I love exploring new sounds. Classical has been around for hundreds and hundreds of years, and modernly, I don't believe it is on a higher level than the other genres despite its rich history. Obviously it's more complex and nuanced in certain respects (hundreds of extremely talented choreographed musiciancs), and that's what gives the genre it's name, that's what sets it apart. But at this point I shouldn't have to say "but that's not what qualifies the merit or appeal of the work for me," I should have gotten that point across by now.

Personally I tend to find progressive rock to be the deepest music to relate to, but that's my personal opinion. Anything and everything else has just as much merit to me, I just have to look at it first, even if its generic label is overtly appealing/unappealing. Sorry I used so many words to say so little, but I think the point that I'm trying to make would benefit discussion that involves cross-comparing any kind of music, and would possibly avoid sweeping comments followed by word twisting and misunderstandings. Just seems like it could be another hot topic that doesn't go civilly in the future, as demonstrated in this topic.
Posted: Sun, 28th Nov 2010, 4:27am

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Pooky

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Damn, schooled me there with the classical knowledge smile

Yeah for what it's worth, I was the one that mentioned instrumental skill having no real relation, after a certain point, to musical quality, so I agree with you.

Also you have just stolen the "longest post of the year" award from Atom!
Posted: Sun, 28th Nov 2010, 8:59am

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Sollthar

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Good explanation of your perspective Serpent. +1'ed you. smile

To me that just doesn't matter as much, and that kind of thing obviously has no weight on how the music actually affects me.
And there is a big difference between us I'd say, which is totally fine and completely subjective. It matters to me. I don't enjoy listening to something compository simple as much as I enjoy listening to something complex. It engages my brain and my emotions much much more. It has weight on how it affects me. That's not an intellectual decision, it's just an observation. Hell, I mostly listen to a musical genre no one likes but geeks. Classical music and orchestral film scores. I'm well aware of having a strange musical taste. smile

Same would go for a 4 line poetry compared to Goethe's Faust. That doesn't mean I can't appreciate 4 line poetry, but it would indeed be McDonalds compared to Faust. (And just on a sidenote, I sometimes really enjoy going to McDonalds)

And when I compared it to fast food, I was specifically talking about the musical composition behind it. Not the lyrics, not the poetry (could you link me to a rap song with lyrics that are considered poetic? Just curious. Those must have slipped past me so far).

And I stand by that. The music in every single video in this thread and almost every single Rap song I've heard is very, very simple.
It might emotionally affect people anyways, obviously does - even a lot of people. That's great for those and I'm happy for them! It doesn't do anything for me. It bores me and I find it repetitious. Lots of things the masses get excited about do nothing for me.

One could even rap over classical music.
Yes, I know. I know a couple of Rap and especially Hip Hop songs where rappers do use classical cues in the background and those would actually be musically interesting to me, if the guy would shut up. wink

Where is this group of "most" that you are pooling from?
Not sure I get this question. Are you asking for a geographical location? Would "in the links of this thread for example" be an answer? Or do you expect me to name a few artists? Most I don't even know what they're called and some I do, but I doubt you'd know them since I don't assume you're listening to german rap?

I'm not trying to do another "you don't get it" post, or qualify any one medium or genre over another, but I am going to qualify the genre of rap after you knocked it.
I don't "KNOCK" down Rap as if Rap was person and I just punched it in the face. Why do humans tend to emotionalize things and then treat them as if they had feelings? Or defend them as if they'd go into a corner and start crying when someone says something bad about them? Are we all 10 years old or what?
"You said something bad about my favorite football club and now I'm deeply hurt and have to restore it's honor"... Puzzling. I guess those are genes I just don't have. smile

I get what you're saying. You like it, it means something to you and you emotionally respond to the fact that I don't like it and to the reasons I don't like it. I get that.

In terms of Rap: I do "not get it". That's what I've been saying all along. I don't get it. I don't get it at all. But there's nothing you could explain, I just don't respond to it emotionally nor intellectually. And I'm giving reasons why. These reasons are assumptions based on observations on what I liked or disliked in the past. Those reasons are neither wrong nor are the right, they're just an explanation because I'm a different human being then you are and I respond to different things then you do and I judge things differently then you do. And you don't share them. That's fine. I'm not asking you to nor am I trying to convince you to see it the same way.

Why is it so hard for some to just accept it and deal with that? We're different and have different perspectives and values. That's really the most puzzling thing for me in this thread.
The additional fact that some people even feel superior for their inability to understand another perspective then their own and call that "open mindedness" is hilarious, if I might say so.
Posted: Sun, 28th Nov 2010, 5:43pm

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Klut

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Aculag wrote:


Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, and I hope I am, because as a musician, you should realize these things. wink I understand that you prefer a different kind of music, and I do too, but I don't see how you can say that good hip-hop requires any less skill than good [insert genre here] does. It just requires a different SET of skills. Just as an example, country music doesn't impress me at all. I hate it, in fact, but I'm not going to say that it requires less talent than a kind of music that I prefer, because that's simply untrue.
I think you misunderstood a little bit, yeah.
Guitar Hero also takes time to master.

English is not my primary language, so I'm sorry if my post was unclear.
Posted: Sun, 28th Nov 2010, 5:54pm

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Atom

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Sollthar wrote:

Why is it so hard for some to just accept it and deal with that? We're different and have different perspectives and values. That's really the most puzzling thing for me in this thread.
The additional fact that some people even feel superior for their inability to understand another perspective then their own and call that "open mindedness" is hilarious, if I might say so.
Jeez, man. It's just really not at all worth it anymore. It's passed a matter of 'not getting it', because it isn't the same as 'you made fun of my favorite team, and now I'm PERSONALLY offended'. No, that's just fandom. As Serpent explained- music, and most-specifically rap music here, has a much more deeply-rooted issue and feeling than surface fandom. Because when you 'knock it down', you're not attacking a third-party that someone likes- you're jabbing a whole genre. A way of life, for many people.

So now you dislike hip-hop, you 'don't get' rap. Fine. That's all and good. You want people to 'respect that difference of opinion', I suggest you do the same.

Please do stay out of this thread, too. You, and a few others, have saturated it with discussion entirely not about what it should be about- which is the simple fandom and discussion of the new album- that's the very reason I updated it with one of my posts- but if you wanna continue to play this in the condescending-I-mean-no-harm-but-I'm-oblivious-to-my-own-prejudices way, I suppose I can't stop you.

I just wish, and I know god forbid it's too much and Atom's being hypocritical, that one time we could have some discussion for those of us that do enjoy this sort of music to just be able to talk about it. Discuss. Without being attacked or our music knocked and berated with unnecessitated hate, ignorance, and just all-around poor attitudes.

It's really quite sad, and it happens every single time, specifically with rap. The players on the rap side (other than myself, of course) seem to change around, but the haters stay the same.

Sorry if that makes me self-imposed-superior for saying so. Or being "open minded". rolleyes
Posted: Sun, 28th Nov 2010, 6:01pm

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Pooky

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Atom, are you against freedom?!
Posted: Sun, 28th Nov 2010, 6:37pm

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Sollthar

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You want people to 'respect that difference of opinion', I suggest you do the same.
I do. I respect that you like Rap and I respect that you like this video. Nowhere have I made any statement that you can't, shouldn't or mustn't do so. You post a music video in a public forum, I post my opinion. You're free to post yours.

But as long as my opinion is being twisted around into an act of evilness or ignorance or hate or offense against anyone but Kanye for insulting his ability to sing (which I admit), I will stay and explain further.

Besides, I did find a lot of the arguments in here very interesting. Serpents post for example is perfectly interesting, enlightening and I'm happy I've read it. I don't share his opinion, but I respect and understand it. And some things you wrote earlier I could understand too.

if you wanna continue to play this in the condescending-I-mean-no-harm-but-I'm-oblivious-to-my-own-prejudices way, I suppose I can't stop you.
Actually, you can. Certainly not by calling me condescending or ignorant though.
Posted: Sun, 28th Nov 2010, 7:18pm

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Atom

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I feel like you're missing the mark, I guess. I'm not saying respect that I like something. I'm saying respect that I consider it to have some worth.

By classifying the music as sub others, you're unraveling any sort of mutual agree-to-disagree opinion consensus any of us might've had. That's the reason not just I, but people you like/agree with more than me on here (and don't get me wrong, I know you do wink)- like Pooky and Serpent- are so adamantly expressing lengthy paragraphs towards this as well.

There's this trailing-end-of-the-sentence comment you keep getting in there, intentional or not, that knocks down music. It's the same as like I mentioned before with the Muse analogy. You may be a huge Muse fan, and I may hate them. But I can both disagree with and still respect your opinion on it, and taste in music, without having to consider or call Muse's music lesser to any other or classify it as anything more than 'something I just don't care for'.

Now, you've said this, yes, that you don't care for rap. And that is perfectly fine. I can agree to disagree with you on taste, and I can't help what you like. It's that you've said more than that, that's the problem that we're all having currently, I think.

That's my problem with throwing out there, the day after it's release, that Kanye's album was something getting great reviews that I really liked. NuttyBanana jumped all over my ass about it. Why? Because, for some reason, it's never enough on here in regards to hip-hop/rap to simply disagree or not like the music, and walk away.

Even you, the Spock of this forum, emotionally-detached and whatnot, have little tendencies in every single one of your posts in this thread that serve to backhand and demean rap.

And really, I don't think you even notice it at all.

I only hammer on this so hard- and express my genuine confusion as to why this perspective is taken- because, specifically, this comes up the most and in the most people in rap/hip-hop threads- and I just don't 'get' the animosity and obtuse thinking around it as lesser music from people who purely and unequivocally believe they're either 'just stating the facts' or 'only offering MY OPINION!!11'.

I suppose with that, I just "don't get it".
Posted: Sun, 28th Nov 2010, 7:41pm

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Serpent

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Solthar, here is a link to a poetic rap song:

Dance with the Devil - Immortal Technique
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qggxTtnKTMo

This song is extremely disturbing, and is based on the Greek tragedy "Oedipus Rex." The problem is, the words and story of this particular song may turn you off too much to actually see the song, but that's what Immortal Technique does. He relates via harsh street life and stories. The wordplay in this isn't all that impressive, but important meetings can be drawn from a rap song that includes pretty much every turnoff mentioned in this thread.

That's just off the top of my head, probably because he references classic literature and that's on my mind, but there's a hell of a lot more, some of it clean enough for the ears of children. The thing is, all rap is approached like poetry. One of my favorite rappers is Eminem. I highly recommend the film "8 Mile," especially if you're more into rap, but otherwise it might give you a better idea of the source of creativity for the rappers who actually care about what they are doing. 'Notorious' is another film that depicts the life of a rapper, in this case a biopic, which might be relatable to more people on this forum since they are both films. Might be a good place to start, neither film is necessarily a masterpiece, but I definitely needed a little push to start liking some new rap and hip hop after my middle school bias phase. They're certainly good films, and both happen to be some of my favorites because of the subject matter.

Some of the other wordplay rap writers emply is ridiculous, doing some absurdly ridiculous things with the English language. Sometimes the impressiveness actually makes me vocally laugh or smile at just how brilliant these people are. God, especially when the mike is going back and forth. I wish I had time to sift through lyrics and stuff and mark them up highlighting how absurd some of it is, but I've spent enough time writing for this topic. smile I'd be happy to point out some poetic devices if anyone's unconvinced, but anyone can learn to recognize a poetic device if they understand it well enough.

One big problem is the turnoffs and hookups that some people have to get through before appreciating any kind of rap. Criminal activity may be more glamorized in rap, but usually the moral message of the song, or whatever it was that was being depicted is less related to the criminal activity. When people say they don't like these messages, I always wonder, which specifically? Because I'm betting that when you do a line break down, you'll realize they aren't telling YOU to become poor, purchase a 9mm weapon, and begin violently dealing crack-cocaine. They are just relating something to you. Unfortunately controversy comes into play from misinterpretation, mostly in children, but I've always been a proponent of 'create what you want and leave the shielding up to the parents,' because the world is a pretty dark place anyways. Basically all that stuff, it's all usually fictional/historical aspects of their life, and few of them probably have any different morals than any other good person. We can't expect to be able to write things that children can instantly interpret properly for their development, and I know no one has suggested that here, but that is one of the things that turns some people off to rap. They don't look at rap like all works should be examined, and the point is often completely lost on them. Not saying rap can be for everyone, because sometimes the certain turnoffs are often just too much, or too offensive for the listener.

When I see an analogy made to McDonalds, I tend to assume that not only was no thought put into the food, but the food came premade. In fact, over here, some believe McDonalds is literally, truly, and evil establishment with the intention of population control in lower income areas. So you can imagine what I thought you meant by that. It's the antagonist of food that is considered art. That's the difference that I distinguish in such an analogy.

Also, I have never heard ANY German rap. That'd be another genre altogether really, since it doesn't focus on the English wordplay. American underground and the American rap label scene is where it's at. I was asking about the rap that you have currently have listened to. Maybe one of the problems is that German rappers are trying to imitate and they don't actually understand the point of the English. They have those over here too though.

I promise I'll try to steer this back to Kanye after I've given it a listen, didn't have a chance yesterday or today yet.
Posted: Sun, 28th Nov 2010, 8:27pm

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Sollthar

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Thank you for that atom, that reads much calmer and understandable for me. +1 for that as well.

I do think the musical abilities behind certain musical genres are different - in complete awareness that there might be single exceptions that go beyond those or exceptions that go beneath. There's indeed no arguing that this is my standpoint.
I do think it requires less skill to compose the music of the average rap song or trance song then it does to compose something like a full orchestral arrangement. Like I believe it requires less skill to make a horror film then it does to make a comedy, less skill to make TV then cinema, less skill to paint cubism then to paint naturalistic or that english is a less complex language than french. I'm not a "all things are equal" kind of person. They're not, as far as I'm concerned.

I get and respect that you and others might disagree with this evaluation. I totally respect you do, and Serpent does, and Pooky does. Honestly. That does not change that it's still my conclusion. I'm totally open to debate this and re-evaluate. Or leave it at that.

What I don't grasp I guess is the emotional response this gets. Why the inability to just say "Really? I disagree. I would say that it requires X and Y and Z and I therefore arrive at the conclusion that (...)" or even say nothing at all, just "My opinion on the matter is different, it's (...)". All this "I'm offended because you think Rap doesn't take the same skill" talk is confusing to me. Is it necessary for you in order to enjoy something that it's value is universally accepted? Can't you deal with the fact someone doesn't?

Filmmaking means a great deal to me and I've had discussions with people who consider the media of film to be inferior to the media of books or theatre.
I wasn't insulted by that since they didn't insult me personally. And "film" isn't an entity with any feelings that could be hurt, so there's no reason for me to defend it. I disagreed, obviously, but that's it. Emotionally, that didn't do anything for me. I'm old and independent enough to continue enjoying and valueing things even if others do neither.

What you're basically saying is that my opinion is considered offensive to begin with. Which means, I'm unable to arrive at that conclusion without automatically insulting all the fans of Rap and that's what I'm having trouble with. A chain of thought I'm somehow not allowed to have or otherwise immediately get deemed insulting or inferior. That's what I have a problem with.


And in all seriousness, I've always been man enough to apologize for making a mistake or saying something nasty or so, but in this case, I just don't know... I can't apologize for arriving at a conclusion you don't like hearing and/or disagree with. And I can't say "all music is equal in my opinion, some I just like more then others" since I would be lying - at least with that first part.

I guess I just really, honestly don't see the problem. unsure

Dance with the Devil - Immortal Technique
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qggxTtnKTMo
I listened to the entire song and I'd lie if I said I understood every single line. I got the gist of the story he was telling though and it's a tragic one. Though some of the words he uses and way he speaks them puts me off. I can't put my finger on why, but it doesn't make me want to listen to him. I haven't enjoyed listening to this guy. For the lack of a better description: He doesn't move me.

Musically, this is the perfect example of what I mean... What do I hear? I hear a piano ostinato in the background, taken from a another musical genre originally and then over it all I hear a couple of drums that do the same thing through the entire piece. Not a very complex or interesting percussion either. I estimate a decent composer could do the entire musical component of this song in an hour or two. Musically, this loses my interest after about 20 to 30 seconds. This is what I mean by "fast food".
Posted: Sun, 28th Nov 2010, 8:45pm

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Serpent

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Well when you put it like that, one could easily say "Really? I disagree. Especially on Television series vs Feature film." wink The point was that you reduced the entirety of a genre as big as Rock and Roll to McDonalds. If that's really how you feel, you might just want to word it more carefully or keep it to yourself, as a forum moderator, as it doesn't contribute to positive discussion at all and it's fairly irrelevant. You have the right to express your opinion, but when you provide these lengthy explanations to the community, it puts it at the forefront of the conversation.

Sadly, we know you don't see the problem. No one is expecting an apology, and no one is actually offended or has any hard feelings as far as I know. We are just asking that you conduct yourself a little differently for the sake of the topic. I'm sure if you brought it up again in a future topic, it would probably just go ignored or get a little "pff, oh Sollthar."

Everything below this "Personally I don't think to rap doesn't need skill. It does need a certain set of speech and rhythm skills, definately!" Read as "But you know, the set of skills and thought that it would require compare to those it takes to heat up a frozen patty."

I did not expect that song to move you, and didn't choose it for that reason. I chose it for the reason of merit, despite it being loaded with things that probably WOULD turn you off. All rap is poetry, I didn't really know what you wanted me to show you. If you want me to find something you might really respect, I can try to do that for you, but I just don't think you'll like rap, as I've said, so I didn't bother. If you think that particular song is kind of "happy mealish" well then I just disagree, and have various specific reasons for disagreeing, but I don't even need to bother. The point was more in the basis of the song, and that was the first thing that came to mind. If one didn't realize that it is based on the themes of Oedipus Rex, it might not have *that* appeal to someone, and they might be blinded by the turnoffs. The song is a bloody downer. If the turnoffs are just too much, as I mentioned, that's fine. To each his own. I just like an extremely wide range of explicity and intensity.

Also, again, most rap isn't about the background beats or music, everyone knows they are often produced to be repetitive, to match the rhythm and flow of the poetry. Smaller rappers starting out will often even rap over stock music that is pre-produced for rap. Modernly, producing has become a huge part of the rap game. Some of the most respected musical talents and artists in the world are currently producing for rap.
Posted: Sun, 28th Nov 2010, 9:07pm

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Sollthar

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"Really? I disagree. Especially on Television series vs Feature film."
And I would instantly notice you have a good point and re-evaluate my statement since TV series are indeed sometimes on a high level production and especially writing wise. I'd argue they're an exception, but that's not the point. smile

If that's really how you feel, you might just want to word it more carefully or keep it to yourself, as a forum moderator, as it doesn't contribute to positive discussion at all and it's fairly irrelevant.
Hm, how is my opinion "fairly irrelevant"? Didn't we just establish a desire for mutual respect for each others standpoints? Now I'm confused again and I thought I had it and felt we arrived at a point I actually could leave this resolved...

Anyways, thanks for the example and the time to explain. Should anyone have a link to a rap song that has an original musical composition in it that is on a high compository level I'm honestly interested in hearing it (I'm talking about the music as in "what the instruments play", not the lyrics). Just to make it clear what I mean. When I listen to music, I listen to the instruments playing. That's why rap probably isn't for me and that's the context in which I say "rap" is musical fast food. I'm talking solely about the instrumental layout, which is what I'm interested in musically.

I'll leave you all to it then.
Posted: Sun, 28th Nov 2010, 9:26pm

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Serpent

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No I just meant that the way you stated it made it irrelevant because of how it came off. The bit that came of kind of like "But you know, the set of skills and thought that it would require compare to those it takes to heat up a frozen patty." My personal stance on the effort behind the art is that that's irrelevant, but I don't think your views on that or anything else in the world are irrelevant on this forum.

But a post can still affect a conversation, and that's what this overall sentiment that has been coming from various users in this thread has been doing to this topic. Basically, if you say things like that, we're gonna comment and it's going to stray the topic a bit. Not that I really care in this case, as a Kanye-hater, I just felt like joining in and defending the art behind a music.
Posted: Sun, 28th Nov 2010, 11:19pm

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ben3308

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We're linking Immortal Technique as an example of positive status quo in rap..............yikes. biggrin

Don't get me wrong, I love Tech's flow, but his content is so disturbed he's an exemplar of the 'beating women' stereotype. The Roots being mentioned earlier were a good example of the music (we used them once in a reel of ours), because they are pretty much a classic 'big band' with a poet (Black Thought) leading the vocals.

But, at the end of the day, rap is meant to have music that supports the lyrics, not the other way around as with other music. The underscoring and beat, admittedly, are meant to support lyrics/poetry, not necessarily musical integrity. That being said, something like Common's 'Be', although not my favorite hip-hop song, is more than half non-lyrical orchestra.

Just all things to consider.
Posted: Mon, 29th Nov 2010, 12:03am

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Serpent

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Admittedly a bad choice given the way this topic has been going, got hung up on classics. But thought that song in particular would make a separate point, so I went for it, especially considering he likely wouldn't like anything I posted given his taste.

Anyways, I finally gave Kanye's new album a listen. I liked parts of it, but overall I wasn't a fan of the album. That's not saying too much, I could name every single album I "love" in no time, and only a few of them would be considered hip hop (in other words, not much of an album guy). Takes a lot for an album to impress me. I don't think Kanye would be able to do it for me, not really my thing and I don't really relate well to him. A couple of really chill and badass tracks for party/driving though, and I love the intro track that was in the video. I also think the album art is incredibly ugly and unappealing, but it certainly garners a reaction. Whatever on that I guess.
Posted: Tue, 30th Nov 2010, 6:43pm

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NuttyBanana

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Atom wrote:

That's my problem with throwing out there, the day after it's release, that Kanye's album was something getting great reviews that I really liked. NuttyBanana jumped all over my ass about it. Why? Because, for some reason, it's never enough on here in regards to hip-hop/rap to simply disagree or not like the music, and walk away.
The only reason I didn't walk away if you like, is because you kept on labelling me ignorant. I'm sure if people did the same to you that you'd continue to have you say and try and set things straight.

The only reason I replied to your over praising post about the album is that the attitude I got from your post is that we should all accept it based on good reviews and sales - not something I agree with and this being a forum I stated so.

Like I said, it takes all to make the world so don't take too much offence to me disliking your taste in music but just stop calling me ignorant for it.
Posted: Tue, 30th Nov 2010, 6:46pm

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Mike Q

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Ive had similar problems with gangsta rap, and detest little wayne at the moment, but eminem and run dmc, amongst others, have shown how it can be done, I know eminem goes to extremes but he still makes some great tracks like "stan".
Here'e a english rap artist I hadn't heard of until this year,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wauIGhax9xg
stick with it, he does rap. I don't know if there's anyone like this in america, singing and rapping over a tune but I really like this guys album, " the defamation of strickland banks", a really great concept album that he's trying to turn inot a film.
Posted: Tue, 30th Nov 2010, 7:32pm

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Serpent

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NuttyBanana, do a control F of the word ignorant on the last few pages. I think it's interesting that it was the word of focus for a lot of people, yet supporters of rap music only brought it up a couple of times. None of which I'd call 'a label, and neither of which were in reference to you, actually. Not saying nothing was ever implied or you're totally in the wrong, but I don't think anyone is just calling you ignorant. I think the sentiment is more along the lines of "biased." I don't think anyone's implied that you're supposed to like this album, either.

Though I don't think you deserve a -1, you did kind of put words in Atom's mouth a bit.


"Little Wayne" - that made me lol. smile
Posted: Tue, 30th Nov 2010, 7:40pm

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NuttyBanana

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My references go a little bit further back to the point where it feels awkward bringing it back up - again. Each time it does get pulled up though I'm just repeating myself so it's beyond pointless doing so and don't know why I bother.

I'm not really that bothered about -1's though, its only a forum. I doubt I'll ever reach the numbers Atom managed in his earlier days on these forums biggrin
Posted: Tue, 30th Nov 2010, 7:53pm

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doppelganger

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Since this has turned into more of a rap and hip-hop thread I see no reason why I can't post another artist for the non hip-hop fans smile Most quasi hip-hop is normally very poppy such as the link Mike posted but one of my favorite bands Why? are more folk-hop indy rock... it's weird but very cool. The lead "singer" doesn't really rap but he also doesn't really sing. Its more like a speak sing style. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLGXJ0k1I34&feature=related ignore the stupid picture it has nothing to do with the song or Why?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIYO27pT9bI&feature=related
Posted: Wed, 1st Dec 2010, 1:30am

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Pooky

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Are you guys really gonna tell me there are no M.I.A. fans here?
Posted: Wed, 1st Dec 2010, 9:03am

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Simon K Jones

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Pooky wrote:

Are you guys really gonna tell me there are no M.I.A. fans here?
I have all of M.I.A.'s albums on an endless playlist loop on Spotify. Only discovered her stuff this year and it is truly superb.

It also seems to exist in a niche sub-genre all its own, I don't know anything quite like it.