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Final Cut Pro X Announced-Footage Included

Posted: Wed, 13th Apr 2011, 2:39am

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Garrison

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Just thought I'd share this with you all as they just announced it at the Final Cut Pro Supermeet in Las Vegas

Live Blog

Here are some clips of the event:

Part1

Part2

Last edited Wed, 13th Apr 2011, 6:37pm; edited 2 times in total.

Posted: Wed, 13th Apr 2011, 2:55am

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Aculag

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This is something I've looked forward to for a long time. So far, it sounds excellent. One thing that caught my eye in the section about media importing: "fix rolling shutter on the way in". Very cool. In fact, media importing seems pretty awesome in general now. Auto syncing of audio is also a big one. Seems like an interesting mix of FCP's pro features, and iMovie's automation.

Also 64bit 8-core processing. biggrin

Definitely can't wait to hear more, and see it in action.

Edit: $299, available in June for download from App Store. Awesome.
Posted: Wed, 13th Apr 2011, 5:39am

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Garrison

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Just finished reading the live blog - $300.00 on the App Store - holy moly
Posted: Wed, 13th Apr 2011, 8:09am

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Arktic

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Very exciting!

I hope that the learning curve isn't too massive, that's the only thing. As someone who makes his day to day living from FCP, the prospect of a huge overhaul is both exciting and a little bit scary - know what I mean?

Anyhow, this looks like it might be the reason/excuse for me to update my home desktop Mac to something faster and newer, perhaps wink

Cheers,
Arktic.
Posted: Wed, 13th Apr 2011, 4:49pm

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Thrawn

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Glad I waited until summer to buy Final Cut Studio biggrin

EDIT: Also, this seems to have absorbed Color and Soundtrack into Final Cut X. The cheap price also eliminates FCE. So I guess Final Cut Studio will also see a dramatic price cut.
Posted: Wed, 13th Apr 2011, 6:52pm

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Aculag

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Garrison wrote:

Here are some clips of the event:

Part1

Part2
I have to say, I had my fears that this would be TOO simplified, or too much like iMovie in some ways, but that looks incredible. I remember hearing talk months ago saying this would be revolutionary, and I didn't buy it because that's what Apple says about everything, but it really does seem like FCPX is going to stir things up in a big way.

The non-destructive Magnetic Timeline, and compressing multiple clips into one to save space, and all of the clip connection stuff... Keywording and clip collections, all of the automatic clip analysis that happens on the way in... These are the kinds of things that editors will use and wonder how they got along without it all these years. I thought about my most complex editorials, and how many times I've completely screwed myself by accidentally writing over something, or moving something where it shouldn't have been, etc. etc. That kind of thing seems almost impossible now. There's so much automation and assistance, but it never seems any less precise or powerful than FCP has ever been.

This is a day one purchase for me, no question.
Posted: Wed, 13th Apr 2011, 7:03pm

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Garrison

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Indeed. All the features you talk about Aculag just makes it seem more intuitive than ever before. I love the idea of when I'm zoomed into the timeline, that I don't have to worry about the other media on the other end and that it will follow suit.

The price point to me is super and downloading it on the App Store instead of waiting in line or waiting for the box to come in from UPS is just an outstanding way to deliver.

Looking forward to this.
Posted: Wed, 13th Apr 2011, 11:27pm

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Pooky

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Damn it, and I managed to get along with just a PC and Windows up till now too. Seems like I'll have to go through the trouble of installing OS X, now razz

Seriously, though, that's gotta be the biggest jump in editing technology since the invention of the NLE?
Posted: Thu, 14th Apr 2011, 12:44am

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RodyPolis

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How reliable is it to install Mac on a PC? If I have a powerful PC and install Mac on it, will that result in me having a powerful Mac also? I was thinking of migrating from Sony Vegas to Premiere instead of FCP because I don't find it necessary to spend 2k on a mac (that won't be as powerful as my PC laptop) just for an NLE when my current one works just fine.

So if it is possible to safely turn my PC into a mac then I might get it. The price is cheaper than what I was gonna pay for the Premiere Student version and if FCPX isn't all hype, I guess it's a no brainner.
Posted: Thu, 14th Apr 2011, 12:56am

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Pooky

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I don't think we're supposed to talk about this because I'm not sure of its legality, feel free to delete this is it's bad.

It's not as easy as Windows, but it's easier than you'd think. You might have some problems with compatibility or odd errors, but usually it runs exactly as well as it would have on a Mac of equal specs. You better know how to Google before you attempt it, though.

If you do go through with it, be sure to buy all your software - OS X is only like 30 or 40$. Also, you may want to hold out to see if Lion really does come out this summer, because I don't think you will be able to upgrade seamlessly like on a Mac.
Posted: Thu, 14th Apr 2011, 1:12am

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RodyPolis

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I'll do some research on it. isn't OS X pretty much the Mac? So how would that be illegal if I bought it (Mac newbie here. Not even sure what a Snow Leopard is Lol)

Is doing that a one way ticket? Can I have both a PC and a Mac at the same time?
Posted: Thu, 14th Apr 2011, 1:51am

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Pooky

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Yes, PM me for any actual links and such, but I know that it used to be that building a Hackintosh wasn't allowed by Apple (hence you needing to use additional software). That was a while ago, though, so I'm not sure anymore. You need an OS X Disk, a second DVD with some special stuff on it, and compatible hardware. Then it takes about 45 mins.
Posted: Thu, 14th Apr 2011, 2:11am

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RodyPolis

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Alright just did.
Posted: Thu, 14th Apr 2011, 2:35am

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Garrison

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Keep in my mind (legalities aside) that if you make money doing editing, I wouldn't risk trying to run a Hackintosh.

You get caught in a bind, and you MAY be spending hours trying to troubleshoot. For me, time is money, and you are better off staying with what works natively.

I have heard stories off Hackintosh on the LAFCPUG sites, and they've never heard of one that works in the long run.
Posted: Thu, 14th Apr 2011, 2:53am

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RodyPolis

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Ahhh I knew someone would come in and poop on my parade!

Maybe I should stick to "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" then.
Posted: Thu, 14th Apr 2011, 3:01am

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Garrison

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In all honesty Rody, I'd take the $ and get equipment or save it for the next camera. If you already have an editing system, I wouldn't race to get the latest greatest thing.
Posted: Thu, 14th Apr 2011, 3:28am

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Pooky

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Well if you get it up and running all right (using good components), then it shouldn't be any less stable than a real Mac - I have two friends who've been using them as main computers for about a year now with no problems.

Garrison does raise a good point with the business aspect of it, though: do not use those things for making money.
Posted: Thu, 14th Apr 2011, 4:31am

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Garrison

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You could always look into a refurbished mac that they sell at apple.com as an alternative. biggrin
Posted: Thu, 14th Apr 2011, 4:51am

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Pooky

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Hehehe, diligently trying to steer this back on track, eh? wink Very well, I'll oblige.

Am I the only one that's very doubtful that any of the other companies can now possibly catch up with the sheer simplicity, style and class that Apple's demonstrated with FCX? Competitors have consistently shown that they can't match Apple in terms of UI, and that's one of the main draws here. Thoughts?
Posted: Thu, 14th Apr 2011, 5:50am

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Biblmac

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Honestly Pooky, I can't say much on the subject as I own a PC, (but I'm going to anyway!) I've grown up with PC's, Windows 98, 2000, ME, and XP. I've used mac's for very limited amounts of time over the past couple years, and only started using them more frequently in the past couple months. I personally, (growing up with WMM and Sony Vegas) have hated my experience with iMovie and imagine I'd have the same bad luck with any of the other video editing products for Mac. So in reference to the following,

Pooky wrote:

Competitors have consistently shown that they can't match Apple in terms of UI, and that's one of the main draws here. Thoughts?
I've hated the UI of the Mac's I've used, more specifically iMovie... I think that if I had a chance to sit down with it I could get the hang of it, but for now, I'll stick to my very close minded view of, "I know Vegas, so why bother with a Mac?" [<rhetorical question, no response required]
Posted: Thu, 14th Apr 2011, 5:56am

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Pooky

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Biblmac wrote:

Honestly Pooky, I can't say much on the subject as I own a PC, (but I'm going to anyway!) I've grown up with PC's, Windows 98, 2000, ME, and XP. I've used mac's for very limited amounts of time over the past couple years, and only started using them more frequently in the past couple months. I personally, (growing up with WMM and Sony Vegas) have hated my experience with iMovie and imagine I'd have the same bad luck with any of the other video editing products for Mac. So in reference to the following,

Pooky wrote:

Competitors have consistently shown that they can't match Apple in terms of UI, and that's one of the main draws here. Thoughts?
I've hated the UI of the Mac's I've used, more specifically iMovie... I think that if I had a chance to sit down with it I could get the hang of it, but for now, I'll stick to my very close minded view of, "I know Vegas, so why bother with a Mac?" [<rhetorical question, no response required]
That'd be because iMovie is possibly the worst application Apple's ever made. I don't think I'll ever understand what their logic was for screwing it up so bad.

That being said, I meant the times Apple makes a great UI; that's when nobody can seem to get their shizzle together and make something that's as good. If you watch those two videos, you will see that this is ridiculously ahead of everything else out there so far, so I'm doubtful that Avid or Adobe can match that.
Posted: Thu, 14th Apr 2011, 6:16am

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Biblmac

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Well, it seems that, once again, I had no idea what I'm talking about, but I spoke up anyway... neutral

Haha anyway, I'll give those two a watch and get back to ya smile
Posted: Thu, 14th Apr 2011, 6:24am

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Axeman

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Yeah, iMovie is easily the most botched piece of software apple has ever released. About three versions ago it was a tolerable video editor, and actually pretty nice compared to the other apps in the price range. Every release since then has removed functionality, screwed up the interface, and made it more and more gimmicky I can only assume that this is to try cover the fact that it no longer effectively functions as a video editor. Though some of the gimmicks added into the latest version do look kinda cool, and those are the ones that have also been implemented into FCPX.

As far as installing OS X on PC hardware; I'm running VMWare Fusion on my Mac, which allows me to run both OS X and Windows simultaneously. So I can run Final Cut, and have a pc app running right alongside it in another window, running in a native Windows environment. There are other options for installing Windows on your Mac as well; surely there is a reverse equivalent? That allows you to run other OS's on a PC?
Posted: Thu, 14th Apr 2011, 6:31am

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Biblmac

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Well I had just decided that since iMovie sucked, everything better, must have the same sucky interface. Then I watched those videos, and oh boy was I wrong! Never been more happy to be wrong!

I just got the the "clip connections" part and am I the only one who doesn't see what is so new and great about it? Isn't it the same thing as groups in Vegas?

@Axeman, I have no idea if there is a way to run multiple operation systems simultaneously on a PC... sorry.
Posted: Thu, 14th Apr 2011, 9:13am

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Atom

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Biblmac wrote:

I just got the the "clip connections" part and am I the only one who doesn't see what is so new and great about it? Isn't it the same thing as groups in Vegas?
Yeah, kinda wondering this as well. Vegas has been doing this for a while I'm pretty sure.

And while this is cool, I'd hardly call it the biggest leap since the invention of the NLE. Come on now, that's somewhat absurd.

Stuff like entry rolling shutter correction is in Vegas 10 and Premiere CS5 already, and lots of the other automation seems more like a streamlined simplification to me for the 'app' culture of program-users than it does a genuine innovation for serious creators.

Which may very well be exactly who they're trying to tackle, and more power to them with that, honestly. But I don't see this as the drastic shift others here are.
Posted: Thu, 14th Apr 2011, 10:52am

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Joshua Davies

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The buzz at NAB was that, as expected, FCP has gone consumer - someone even mockingly named it iMovie Pro. I guess this is directly reflected in the new price, but also in the nature of the Mac platform these days.

I think the fact that Apple has ripped up the rule book on the timeline (which it did before with TERRIBLE results in iMovie) also shows they are not expecting this product to jump right in to professional work flows. Those with time to tinker an relearn will no doubt enjoy the new timeline features but some of the standard universal NLE interface has gone, and professional users on deadlines are NOT going to appreciate that!

Still, what NAB consider to be consumer is what you and I would normally think of as prosumer. What does it matter as long as they've included some great features? I know I look forward to trying out the software as soon as it comes out!

While I can't see this release stopping high end users from moving away from FCP (as they have been increasingly doing in recent years), I do expect Apple will benefit from massively more unit sales in the consumer market place. This will more than make up for the reduced price and, given Apple's consumer focus, this seems like a sound plan, as does calling the product Final Cut Pro rather than iMovie Pro. wink
Posted: Thu, 14th Apr 2011, 11:53am

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Arktic

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It does look like a very consumer oriented product - but as long as they've still got all the things that I need to do my job: multiclips, EDL export, integration with Final Cut Studio, XML import, support for various codecs, capture cards & AV I/Os etc, then I can't see that this upgrade will be that much more consumer than any of the previous versions.

Sure, it looks a little more candy coated - but some of the new features do sound great; using nested sequences is always a nightmare, so the new grouping function will be handy - I imagine it working the same way as AE's precomps. And auditioning will be a really handy feature when it comes to viewings with Execs! I also hope that they've managed to sort out the trim mode - in it's current form, it doesn't really work as it should do (read: as well as AVID's trim mode!).

But a couple of bits seem irrelevant - like the magnetic timeline; if you're working in a sensible way, you shouldn't really need that sort of functionality, and I can't really see the use for it; in the example they give in the view, you end up with two instrumental tracks overlapping, so you're going to have to fix that anyway. Plus, one thing I used to hate when working with sub-editors was getting a project with 20 audio tracks when you never really need more than 8. Having the program just add extra tracks when you move stuff around will encourage people to be lazy and you'll end up with squillions of audiotracks that then get grouped down, rather than just managing your clips properly and having all the tracks there on one screen...

Anyway, as long as they announce more 'under the hood' stuff soon, I'll be happy smile

Cheers,
Arktic.
Posted: Thu, 14th Apr 2011, 12:03pm

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Joshua Davies

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I did hear that Color, Motion and DVD Studio are dead in the water - not having this kind of update or not being released... crazy
Posted: Thu, 14th Apr 2011, 12:44pm

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Arktic

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Motion has never been something that I bothered with, mostly because I learned AE first and never saw the appeal. I use Color occasionally, but if they integrate some of the higher end features directly into FCPX (better vectorscopes/parades, better secondaries, node-based effects), then I can see the benefit to having it all 'under one roof'. DVDSP is probably the tool from that list that I use most frequently - but I can't imagine there being no DVD burning options/integration in the new FCP, surely...?
Posted: Thu, 14th Apr 2011, 1:56pm

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NuttyBanana

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I'm same as you Arktic and use FCP daily for my work, though I imagine your editing duties are more complicated than mine. FCP and DVDSP are 2 of my most run programs and I was just thinking that surely there HAS to be a new DVDSP or heaven forbid - BRSP. They really need to get on top of the Bluray situation and now seems like the right timing.

Anyway, as most people have said, for FCP users these new features are mostly great and I'm really looking forward to being able to actually use the power in my mac to its potential when editing now. The auto rendering for a start is a huuuge welcome and seeing that 'rendering video/audio' box vanish was a dream come true. Sometimes the most simple things look like they'll make life a little easier/more fun from now on. The clip colour matching looked nice too!

The price point is a surprise but welcome at the same time. I don't care for this 'consumer' product lark. If the program works well for me then it doesn't hurt anyone. I was concerned with the thumbnail timeline though as I hated that in iMovie for the times I tried it and have always stuck with the green bar in FCP - I'll give it a try though.

Looks good to me anyway, will certainly pick this up asap.
Posted: Thu, 14th Apr 2011, 3:47pm

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Joshua Davies

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Apple hate Blu-ray and DVD for the same reason - they go against their iTunes delivery platform. I imagine DVD Studio will be left to grow old with no updates just like iDVD. I'm almost sure Blu-ray authoring just isn't going to happen in an Apple product...
Posted: Thu, 14th Apr 2011, 4:15pm

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Arktic

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schwar wrote:

I'm almost sure Blu-ray authoring just isn't going to happen in an Apple product...
I'd be willing to put a bet on that, in the next three years. £20?
Posted: Thu, 14th Apr 2011, 4:16pm

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Joshua Davies

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You think Apple will produce a Blu-ray authoring product in the next 3 years? Good luck on that one.
Posted: Thu, 14th Apr 2011, 4:17pm

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Simon K Jones

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I'd be willing to bet that Apple will remove all physical media capabilities from their computers in the next 5 years-or-so, replacing it with Apple-controlled stores and cloud systems.

They're mostly just waiting for bandwidth to be good enough so that Macs don't even have hard drives and everything is stored by Apple and you can only access your files after 30 minutes of daily worship.

wink
Posted: Thu, 14th Apr 2011, 5:34pm

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Biblmac

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Haha I think Tarn's on to something here! wink
Posted: Thu, 14th Apr 2011, 8:38pm

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NuttyBanana

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Considering how editor friendly these machines are labelled as, it is rather embarrassing that BR is still absent without the trials of purchasing additional hardware and software to get the job done.
Posted: Thu, 14th Apr 2011, 11:40pm

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Serpent

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Embarassing? Sony is embarassing for standardizing their ridiculous media formats. That's just me anyways.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_Versatile_Disc
This exist already.

I would be all for a world without discs, boxes, papers, and all that other tree killin' nonsense.

As long as FCP keeps up with industry standards I'll be happy. But in the meantime I'll be learning the Avid way regardless. I don't like this consumer vibe I'm getting from one of their professional industry products, but I'm sure they know what they are doing. Certainly looking forward to the release and price tag.
Posted: Fri, 15th Apr 2011, 7:25am

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NuttyBanana

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I read about those discs a few years back but this is the first time I've seen them mentioned since.

As for BR I know Sony is really the one to blame but I'd have thought something could have been arranged by now. Saying that though I don't know much else about it so...
Posted: Tue, 21st Jun 2011, 4:25pm

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Garrison

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It's out today via the App Store. biggrin

And here is a sample from a tutorial series
Posted: Wed, 22nd Jun 2011, 12:30am

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Aculag

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I've been messing with it for thirty minutes or so. Haven't really dug very deep yet, but it is definitely a new software, and almost nothing at all like FCP7. I can really see how it would frustrate full-time editors who are trying to upgrade, because it isn't really an upgrade. It's a reboot. It takes the core concept of FCP and completely expounds it into something that is distinctively modern. It works very much in the same way that OSX works in general; sometimes a little too helpful maybe.

It's going to take some getting used to, for sure.
Posted: Wed, 22nd Jun 2011, 1:24am

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Biblmac

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Well I hope to see some reviews on it soon, 'cause although I'm a huge windows fanboy I'd love to see this succeed and have lots of potential, although I was originally very skeptical.
Posted: Wed, 22nd Jun 2011, 1:25am

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Garrison

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Let me know how it's going for you past your initial looking Aculag.

Here are some links to some FCP pros thoughts:

Ken Stone

Larry Jordan

Digital Rebellion1

Digital Rebellion2
Posted: Wed, 22nd Jun 2011, 2:47am

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Atom

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Biblmac wrote:

Well I hope to see some reviews on it soon, 'cause although I'm a huge windows fanboy I'd love to see this succeed and have lots of potential, although I was originally very skeptical.
For people like us, at least, don't hold your breath. Chase, our crewmate and longtime stringent fanboy/user of FCP is moving over to Vegas with his next purchase being a PC because of this. It just isn't professional-grade, and it's more and more obvious- and not necessarily a bad thing- that Apple is slowly but surely trying to freeze out hard computing and make an even greater push to be a company of development and innovation on the wireless devices and tablet front. iCloud and iOS5's massive development being their main goal right now show that more than anything.

FCPX being available in the App store supports and forwards the whole 'app culture' they're continuing to perpetuate- everything is online, streaming, and not on a physical device, everything is done in simpler terms, and everything has an app for utility. The era of regular computing, and to an extent innovation in working and creating on a computer, seems to be leaving the frontal lobe of Apple as a company. Exciting for the general world, disappointing for those who really utilize tools their computers offer.

Phillip Bloom said it best, I think, in his summation:

FCP X is an ingenious fast piece of software that is going to upset just about every editor out there used to final cut pro! BUT is probably going to appeal massively to new editors without previous NLE experience, they will love it I am sure.
I agree with his assessment, though I don't share the hope that they will 'add necessary broadcast workflow' in a later update. The program is moving away from that, not towards it.

Disappointing. That's the word I've heard the most. But I had expected as much- this is where Apple is going as a company. I'm sure it will be an absolute delight to eventually edit little blah videos in FCPX on my iPad 2. And that will be great and considerably revolutionary.

But against Vegas 10, against Premiere CS5- man, this is pretty laughable.
Posted: Wed, 22nd Jun 2011, 3:34am

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Aculag

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It definitely does seem "dumbed down" for sure, and it's missing quite a lot of features that are requirements for a lot of people. I think it's a bit premature to write it off entirely, however, considering this is technically a version 1.0 release, and this is day one. Apple isn't going to completely alienate their pro users who have come to rely on their software, and enough people will complain about it that the missing elements will get patched in. I don't think they're out to lose customers, so I'd be very surprised if by version 10.3 or so, it doesn't have most of the initial issues worked out.

Of course, I could be completely wrong, and Apple really have just effectively abandoned the pro market, in which case, while I won't be buying a PC and switching to Premiere, I'll probably kick myself and just go back to FCP7. Still, I'm going to give it a few weeks to sink in, and get some updates. Being that I'm not a professional editor, it might end up working out nicely, but right off the bat, I do really miss a lot of what FCP7 offers. Like a "Save As..." function, for one. I really like how footage and media is organized in the program, but I hate how Apple stores media and the project file as kind of a self-contained unit. iPhoto does the same thing, where all of your media is stored in some invisible folder somewhere that you can't access without using some other software to "hack" it.

Day one summary: Could definitely use some work, and a truckload of features that were removed inexplicably, and I could definitely use a couple of weeks to get into it. Like Atom said, I'm not so keen on the digital download only, "It's an APP LOL" thing. A proper, binded manual would be very useful for reference. I hope I don't grow to regret this.
Posted: Wed, 22nd Jun 2011, 4:04am

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Atom

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Aculag wrote:

I don't think they're out to lose customers, so I'd be very surprised if by version 10.3 or so, it doesn't have most of the initial issues worked out.
While I agree Apple doesn't have a vested interest in losing customers, my guess is that they more interested in maximizing profits, and if doing that by universalizing FCPX as a purely consumer, 'buy this app in the App Store and use it like an app!'-mentality-type product offer them a windfall of new NLE users (as it likely will) I don't see why they wouldn't want to/won't abandon their original core.

Afterall, Apple computers no longer hold up, really. They pale in-comparison to many and most of the PCs out there, and that's not just a statistic of preference, it's a fact of, really, only solidly the past 2-2.5 years. And what came around at that time? Oh yes, the iDevices! biggrin

Their interests, developments, greatest successes, and biggest focus are in devices. But you don't see people complaining or terribly worried or even really noticing it- because while they lose the pro market, they increasingly gain a completely new 'app culture' consumer market they created for themselves in the era of iOS and cloud/streaming mentality.

I'm not trying to write it off, because I'm sure they'll make a few concessions. But if you're looking to the future of Apple with the FCP brand- it's pretty obvious where it is (inevitably) heading, while you've got Sony and Adobe and even Autodesk with Smoke pushing increasingly toward a different route- with greater and more complex tools for things like BluRay authoring, stereoscopic 3D integration, etc. built-in to newer and newer models.

Apple, and this could be a great thing for both industries/companies, doesn't seem to care to compete with that any more. Their company is going in a decidedly different direction, and everything about FCPX signals that. I've no doubt some professional-grade users will still try and stick with it, nor do I doubt it's a fantastic program. But it's more on the lines of 'perfect/flawless-and-pretty version of Pinnacle or 'iMovie Pro'' now than it is a serious competitor with it's NLE counterparts.

It's apples to oranges now, with FCPX in regards to the other guys. Not 'potato potawto', as it was with FCP7. For better or for worse. But, most definitely, for different.
Posted: Wed, 22nd Jun 2011, 4:22am

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Aculag

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Definitely agree, man. FCPX is definitely the direction they're going in, considering iPhoto, GarageBand, etc. all have very similar features. I'm basically losing interest in Apple. I'm not a fan of the cloud idea, not a fan of moving everything mobile and toward mass appeal. I don't plan on upgrading to Lion when it comes out, because it's basically working at making OSX more like iOS, which is just ridiculous. I don't want my workstation to function like my goddamn tablet does, Apple. The other way around would be sweet, though. wink

I started using Macs for FCP back in 2002, and I've been very happy with it. Right now I wish FCPX could have been FCP8, with all the features of FCP7, plus the new hotness in FCPX. Instead, it's pretty much grown up iMovie with some hints of what FCP used to be. Like I said, I think it's early to call it a major disappointment, but I can't really think of a better way to describe it for now. It is pretty sad that it's more geared toward making cash than it is toward pleasing long time customers. I guess they don't really need us anymore. It's definitely fair to say that they probably sell more laptops than they do desktops, so it makes sense to make a software that is more approachable on a laptop, but it's still sad that people who have spent the last decade with FCP are kinda getting the shaft with this.

I have a new-ish Mac Pro that is just great, but I use Windows on it more than I use OSX. So if FCPX ends up being the idiots introduction to semi-professional NLE, then at least I have the option of either sticking with FCP7, or going back to Premiere after ten years. It was my first love, after all. smile
Posted: Wed, 22nd Jun 2011, 4:43am

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Atom

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Well hey, the things Vegas 10 and CS5 can do are both amazing. Coming back to one of them wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. wink

Plus, have you looked into PCs these days? $1,000 can buy you a number of i5 and i7 laptops that are all (considerably) better than any current Mac offerings.

Not trying to bash on them hard or anything- I definitely own 3 iPods, have gone through 2 iPhones, and both iPad and iPad 2, and I absolutely love them. But it's nice to be 'right' about my prediction with the state of where they're increasingly taking the NLE (and the rest of their programs, for that matter).
Posted: Wed, 22nd Jun 2011, 4:49am

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Garrison

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I'm still on FCS2 and I have Adobe's CS5 so I'm not ready to open up my wallet on this first iteration. I agree that this is geared more towards consumers than the pros, and I don't even use the pro features (print to tape, OMF exports etc).

Should be interesting in time to see if they implement pro features in updates.
Posted: Wed, 22nd Jun 2011, 5:29am

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RodyPolis

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It really does puzzle me a little bit why media people in general insist on paying 3 times the price for Macs to do their work on. Photoshop, After Effects and all that work the same on a PC as they do on Macs. A friend of mine who has only used After Effects on Macs came to my house to work on a project (because my new computer is a beast) and had no trouble because IT IS THE SAME THING...

Why buy the lesser (in terms of power), more expensive machine when it's the software that counts? And where did the "macs are better for media" mentality come from? I guess I just have a trouble with the whole Mac stuff because I was already making videos on my PCs before I knew that Macs were supposed to be better for making videos.

After actually using Macs (my dad has one and I watch some friends edit on FC at school) I realize that they freeze and crash just like PCs do (something the Apple marketing team tries hard to convince people otherwise), so I'm just left confused. Do people not like money anymore?
Posted: Wed, 22nd Jun 2011, 8:56am

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Bryce007

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RodyPolis wrote:

It really does puzzle me a little bit why media people in general insist on paying 3 times the price for Macs to do their work on.
Because a huge amount of people use FCP, and thus, you must use it too in order to get freelance jobs or share projects with people who are paying you.
Posted: Wed, 22nd Jun 2011, 9:17am

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Simon K Jones

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Bryce007 wrote:

RodyPolis wrote:

It really does puzzle me a little bit why media people in general insist on paying 3 times the price for Macs to do their work on.
Because a huge amount of people use FCP, and thus, you must use it too in order to get freelance jobs or share projects with people who are paying you.
Not anymore! Or at least, not according to some of these early reports.

Is it true that it doesn't have audio keyframing? Or have they just 'reimagined' it into something else?
Posted: Wed, 22nd Jun 2011, 9:19am

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Serpent

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Aculag wrote:

but I hate how Apple stores media and the project file as kind of a self-contained unit. iPhoto does the same thing, where all of your media is stored in some invisible folder somewhere that you can't access without using some other software to "hack" it.
Pictures >iPhoto Library _Control click > show package contents? Aren't those "hidden file folders" just fancied-up folders with a hierarchy? Same goes for Aperture, iMovie, and so-on. FCPX is actually reminding me a bit of Aperture, in that its interface is intuitive and not un-like its little brother, and actually is being geared for the professional. Just, maybe not yet the professional scope that FCP7 covered, and not nearly Avid.

While I don't like how all this is sounding from the users, I have some faith in Apple. Enough that I believe they could turn this into something better than FCP7 and appeal to professional playing field that they were at. They have yet to disappoint me, not that they haven't made mistakes, but I just don't think they'd make one with this. I'm still a bit worried, and if they don't meet my expectations, I guess I'll be converting fully to an Avid workflow. But Ken Stone's sentiments were reassuring to me, and I'm kind of optimistically hoping along those lines. Loved how he made the automatic organization sound, and that's something I find very appealing. Some of the features were inevitable, like auto-conversion, HDSLR-geared features, and some new features are really cool, but I really hope they make up for the exclusions. I think it has the potential to be very promising software.




@Rody: you're paying for the operating system/software mainly, and the customer support, the pre-built hardware, and all that. You realize Mac OSX and Apple software is a massive part of the appeal for all people, you're acting as if they are paying for shiny hardware. Mac OSX and Windows 7 aren't the same, each support different software, and one isn't objectively better than the other.

If you don't like those aspects of Apple/Macs enough to buy one, that's fine, you don't have to buy one. But for some people it's just perfect for what they want. I love Mac OSX, and I love their software, and so far my experience with Apple support has been absolutely amazing. They replaced my 3-year-old Macbook Pro that was under warranty with a brand new Intel i7 Macbook Pro for free, with a new warranty, and they have always been extremely clear on their policies and easy to deal with. Even coordinating support in multiple states as I travelled across the country. So far I have no reason to end my loyalty to Apple, I've been extremely happy with them so far having had 4 Macs (counting free laptop), and 3 devices so far. All of their software and devices work together so I don't really have to worry about any aspect of my digital life. I know you can set up various other devices with PCs to do this too, but that's not my preference. I like the simplicity, yet depth, of Apple. I like that they are innovative, and brilliant designers of software and interfaces, with nicely assembled hardware. My family has a Powerbook 100 from 1991 that works to this day.

The Mac/PC debate is kinda... dated. For some people, the workflow of a Mac is better and easier for them. Using a Mac once, and using it in your daily work/life are a bit different. You me be more geared toward PCs, I know plenty of people who most assuredly are, and have no reason to spend the money for a Mac. And that isn't a good thing or a bad thing. It puzzles me that people can't just accept that other people have different preferences, and even ways of thinking, and go with their own flow. Be secure with whatever you use, because you can do the same things in both in every aspect of this field.


TL;DR: Macs can be cool for some less-techy people who can afford their interface and software preference, and many such people work in media. But both are essentially just tools, and the preference is entirely subjective on an individual basis. For what I do and how I work, I'm a Mac.


EDIT: As for being forced to use FCP on freelancing, that's the nature of the beast that is the client. To deal with it, either learn FCP or ditch that client. You shouldn't have to. But honestly, most skill in NLEs translate pretty easily, you just have to get used to the interface.

Last edited Wed, 22nd Jun 2011, 9:48am; edited 3 times in total.

Posted: Wed, 22nd Jun 2011, 9:30am

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Simon K Jones

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Serpent wrote:

They have yet to disappoint me, not that they haven't made mistakes, but I just don't think they'd make one with this.
I very much doubt it'll be a mistake from Apple's point of view. They'll sell a ton of FCPX, massively enlarge the userbase, and gets lots of people to switch up from iMovie. It seems to be a very deliberate move on their part, and is entirely in line with everything else they've been doing for the last few years - as Atom has neatly pointed out.

It's not that they've made a mistake. It's just that their priorities seem to be elsewhere these days - unfortunately it seems that pro editors no longer interest Apple.
Posted: Wed, 22nd Jun 2011, 9:42am

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Serpent

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I think "professionals" definitely still do interest Apple, just not all of them, apparently. Imagine some of these features for professional web-editors, television editors, on-the-go stuff, etc. There's some great stuff in FCP X, the problem is that they are excluding the "big guys," who have been using FCP on multi-million dollar projects and legitimate films. I just think they are just taking a new approach to the NLE, and it will take them a bit to get back to the scope that they once covered.

At least, that's what I like to hope, maybe I'm being overly optimistic. I just think some of these features are just absolutely a step in the right direction, while in other ways it's a step back. They may attract some new users and hit their sales numbers, but I don't think the massive FCP community is going to be very quiet about any of the disappointments.

Or maybe Apple has something else up their sleeves. >_> I dunno, this just seems crazy to me.
Posted: Wed, 22nd Jun 2011, 10:07am

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Simon K Jones

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Even if they do add in features down the line, the unpredictability of Apple's behaviour makes it very difficult for professionals and businesses to invest in it as a platform. If you rely on certain technology for your income, you can't risk the manufacturer suddenly pulling the rug out from underneath you.

It's this same unpredictability that makes them an exciting, innovative company for consumers, technophiles and gadget lovers, all of whom can operate on a purchase-to-purchase basis. When products are luxury or entertainment focused it isn't a problem.

As an editor, I'd feel pretty nervous right now if I used Mac.

The iPad is pretty cool, though. wink
Posted: Wed, 22nd Jun 2011, 10:58am

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Atom

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Rating: +1

Let me put it this way- I am an editor. It's what I do. It's the part of filmmaking I enjoy the most, and consider to be my best skill and biggest asset.

And even considering this, I am absolutely positive there is no value to FCPX that exceeds (or even measures up) to FCP7, the current version of Smoke, Premiere CS5, and (most-specifically) Vegas Pro 10.

Don't be obtuse, now, Serpent. FXhome- as a company- passed on developing their largest, most important, and likely most-profitable software leap on Mac. Surely that says something just by itself.
Posted: Wed, 22nd Jun 2011, 12:52pm

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Serpent

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Tarn, those are great points, and that's my biggest worry, that people migrate away during the transition, or Apple never really make this a transition and it becomes taken over by a consumer customer-base. I really don't like where this could head, where it looks like it could head, but I'm remaining hopeful. If I was a professional FCP editor, I'd be pissed that they are taking the approach in this way, as they do with most other kinds of Apple products. But an editor with a Mac platform can still use other software, no? Currently I am nervous about the fate of FCP itself, but I also think it would be silly to just give up on it after just day 1!

@Atom Why do you find it OK to talk to me like that? I'm not being obtuse or slow, I'm being optimistic and hopeful toward the software that I love using more than any other. Maybe not worded the most eloquently, but I didn't think my hope would come into question, so forgive me for not drafting something up.

FCP still has an appeal to a niche in the professional industry, regardless of the direction they take it, even if it's not your thing or my thing. Not all professional editors use the software on as hardcore a level as intensive film projects and the like, and they don't require the features of higher end software. Think web editors, and whatnot, who might be aiming more for simplicity/efficiency on the move or something. Now it would be sorely disappointing if that was the only professional crowd Apple would continue to "support," as they would be dumping quite a large percentage of their professional and aspiring users, including me. But everything in my post is simply speculation and hopefulness about future renditions of the software and how taking it in that direction has the potential to take them to new and exciting places, in my opinion. Let me stress how speculative I'm being: I speculated at another NLE from Apple above FCP. This is just based on my faith in Apple, the respect I have for Apple, and how I see them respond to feedback. I may be very wrong on this, but that doesn't matter. If I'm being naive and they don't deliver, well such is life, I'm fully prepared for that. I'm certainly not dropping $300 on version 1.0 just yet, but I'm not the only one that isn't hopeful. Most FCP users are hopeful for the future of FCPX, I'm not alone here...

My attitude is hopefulness. If your's is certainty, fine, but don't call me things. I wouldn't call you arrogant or narrow for having such a firm stance.

And FXHome's operating system support for Hitfilm actually says nothing to me, other than which platform they concluded would be best to develop a user-base. Most people use Windows, and Mac users can dual boot. I don't think it was based on the fate of Apple Computers and/or software as professional tools. If it was, I bet you'd be hard-pressed to get schwar to admit it.
Posted: Wed, 22nd Jun 2011, 2:09pm

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Aculag

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Serpent wrote:

Pictures >iPhoto Library _Control click > show package contents? Aren't those "hidden file folders" just fancied-up folders with a hierarchy? Same goes for Aperture, iMovie, and so-on.
Yeah, I thought this would work, but when I tried to find my iPhoto Library, it was nowhere to be seen. Even a spotlight search revealed nothing. Hmm. I'll check again later tonight. I used to be able to right click on a photo in iPhoto and say "Reveal in finder" (like everything else), but that doesn't work anymore, sadly.

Tarn - I don't think audio keyframing is gone. On the timeline, your clips are automatically linked with their respective audio tracks to start with, and on that, the only options are to move a slider to fade the audio in and out, but you can separate all of the elements, and while I haven't tried keyframing anything yet, the function is definitely there for video at least. I'll get back to you, but I wouldn't be surprised if that's one of the backlash bandwagon comments, where people have spent a couple of hours with the software, and haven't gone beyond its most basic functions, and therefore, are in a position to complain about it.

It is a bit silly that it is a three-step process to actually remove audio from a clip, as opposed to FCP7, where you can do it in one click. You have to split up the clip elements, then isolate the audio, then you can delete it. Strange.
Posted: Wed, 22nd Jun 2011, 2:25pm

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Serpent

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Yeah, depending on the version of iPhoto, you can either right click the image and say "Reveal in Finder," or select it and then hit "File > Reveal Edited in Finder / Reveal Original in Finder." It's actually more intuitive this way, and easy to manage, I think. Odd that reveal is not in the right click menu any more. Also, if you want to access the images easily in external applications, just create an alias of the 'Originals' folder from the iPhoto library package and stick it somewhere.

Let us know how your continued use of FCPX goes, how it works with the HDSLR workflow, etc. Would love to hear your impressions.
Posted: Wed, 22nd Jun 2011, 3:19pm

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Aculag

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Yeah, last night was my first time using iPhoto '11, so it was a little jarring. I'll get used to it, I'm sure.

Serpent wrote:

Let us know how your continued use of FCPX goes, how it works with the HDSLR workflow, etc. Would love to hear your impressions.
So far, I fear that there is no HDSLR workflow. There's an "Import from camera" function that I was excited about, but it doesn't recognize my T2i. So then I tried importing the footage into iPhoto, so that I could use the import function to import straight from my iPhoto library, but in FCPX, when you click the "photo" tab, it says "Open iPhoto 5 or later to see your photos listed here." It says that whether iPhoto is open or not, so I'm assuming it's a bug.

I resorted to copying the files from iPhoto to my desktop, and importing from there. Really lame, because then after FCPX imports them, and writes its own version of the file, that means I have three copies of the same file on my drive. That's a huge pain if I'm dealing with multi-gig files, and I will be. Obviously I need to spend more time with the workflow to get it down.

Basically, it really sucks that we're waiting on an update to fix stuff that should have been there already. It's very much an unfinished product. Am I the only sucker here who bought it yesterday?
Posted: Wed, 22nd Jun 2011, 3:37pm

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Sollthar

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Welcome to reality, where apple is a business in a capitalistic environment who has only one goal: To make money and get lots of people to buy stuff, ideally more then once. Where an unhappy customer is nothing compared to the 3 new happy ones they excpect.

Final Cut is still the absolute standard here in switzerland. No company or TV network I've ever worked with uses anything else. I find it a fantastic tool myself and personally have zero interest in FCPX so far.
Posted: Wed, 22nd Jun 2011, 4:21pm

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Garrison

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Aculag wrote:


So far, I fear that there is no HDSLR workflow. There's an "Import from camera" function that I was excited about, but it doesn't recognize my T2i.
I think in one of the forums I read, it says you need the Prokit7 software update installed. Maybe that's the reason?

Most of the users say FCPX is geared toward the HDSLR user so I can't imagine that you can't import them like you do FCP.
Posted: Wed, 22nd Jun 2011, 7:53pm

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CX3

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FCPX is definitely being looked down upon. Most the trailer houses out here are only FCP or AVID based and the ones who run FCP are turning away from X. The one I work at has no plans to change over from 7. We're going to grab a copy today to test it on a machine (basically for fun) but the fact that it doesn't have basic pro features like outputting XMLs/EDLs/OMFs, Kona support and SDI out is insane and makes the program unusable for us.

To those who bought this program before reviews, well... doh haha. It had already gotten a bad rep after it was shown at the conference!
Posted: Wed, 22nd Jun 2011, 8:13pm

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DVStudio

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All I can say is, you all expect too much from Apple... It was fairly obvious to me that FCPX was going to be a disappointment to anyone who works professionally on film.

And, +1 Atom.

P.S. (Thanks Paddy)
Posted: Thu, 23rd Jun 2011, 3:36am

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Atom

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Serpent wrote:

I don't think it was based on the fate of Apple Computers and/or software as professional tools. If it was, I bet you'd be hard-pressed to get schwar to admit it.
Pretty sure this is exactly the types of things schwar has been saying the past few months, actually. Uncertainty and speculation. wink
Posted: Thu, 23rd Jun 2011, 4:41am

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Serpent

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He has said that the fate of Apple computers is completely out of the professional field in media? Wow, well OK then, I guess you wouldn't be hard-pressed, unless he's being misrepresented.

But regardless of his perspective, I hope the pessimistic side of the speculation is not correct, because I simply love my platform and their software. I don't think Macintosh computers will be dead to media editors any time soon, a lot of them are Mac users. But it will definitely be interesting to see the actions of Apple over the next year as they bring in the new software. I think it all looks potentially promising, rather than the other way around. Just my thoughts, even if they're off-base. I mean, I have absolutely no way of knowing; I lack the crystal ball, foresight, omnipotence, and Apple security clearance. But I really don't think anything is conclusive right now.


I might use FCP X just for personal projects. I didn't really know too much about the software before yesterday, but I'm loving the look of the price tag, the 64 bit support, improved organization and HDSLR workflow support, and I have plenty of other software to compensate in places it lacks. Might be perfect for what I need it for actually, but I'd have to take a deeper look. Will hold off for a while, but I might consider it even if they don't do much with it. Just saying that makes it sound crazy that they wouldn't.
Posted: Thu, 23rd Jun 2011, 7:53am

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Joshua Davies

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I don't think I've said that the fate of Apple computers is completely out of the professional field in media... They continue to build powerful professional workstations and equipment and 3rd parties will continue to build amazing products for those machines. As long as you need a Mac to develop for iOS then the Mac is very VERY safe.

I do think its possible that consumer Macs will switch over to iOS and ARM processors in the next couple of years - they would just make so much more margin! Also, Apple apps are all becoming fullscreen single window... just like iOS.

Anyway, when it comes to FCPX I think Apple has filled a MUCH larger gap in the market than if they had simply updated Final Cut Pro. I know professional users feel Apple owes them something but Apple are ALL about sniffing out profits. Developing FCPX would have been less expensive than a full upgrade to the Final Cut Pro Studio, and they'll make vastly bigger returns.

It is a clever plan but it has obviously annoyed the most vocal group of Apple fans - the old guard professional users. These people have stood by Apple when they nearly went bust, when they started making computers which looked like candy, when they insisted on becoming a music distributor, when they switched to Intel and when Apple became best known for making mobile phones and NOT professional software. I feel the cries of this relatively small number of professional users will soon be covered by the enthusiasm of consumers.

Final Cut Pro was behind the times in many technical ways, and I'm sure Apple didn't want the development overhead of having to make and then maintain a truly professional product - that is a very expensive way to do business hence the cost of other professional products on the market. Instead they have made a more attractive product which will appeal to tons more people, especially those with a little cash to burn. This is exactly the way all of Apple's recent products have been going and they are doing it better than anyone else in the world!

From a professional point of view Apple are clearly less interested these days. Shake was purchased, raved about, then dropped - that was the most professional post-production tool they had! Final Cut Studio has now had maybe more than 50% of its functionality removed and they stopped selling the old version to those who need it (many of whom were just waiting to see what was in store with FCPX). I don't really know what clearer signals Apple can give? Oh, and the vast majority of Mac sold are of the lowest end they make (where the profits still high for them). Lets face it, you do not buy an 11 or 13 inch laptop to do professional/broadcast video editing!

They are more interested in the consumer and prosumer markets which is where the money is at... They'll leave Adobe and Autodesk to keep making the professional software which hardly anyone actually needs.
Posted: Thu, 23rd Jun 2011, 8:02am

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Arktic

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At the end of the day, there are still a LOT of companies who rely on an FCP architecture, and won't be switching over in the next few years to anything else.

There *is* a userbase out there that needs OMF audio export and who want a more feature rich colour correction suite and the like. But every professional who owns Apple hardware isn't going to jump ship and switch over to AVID immediately (and even less likely, Premiere, or less likely still, Vegas) just because the version 1 release of their new software isn't quite right yet.

I would be *very* surprised if there's not an upgrade, or at least third-party releases a la Automatic Duck, which add these elements to FCPX. In the mean time, most post houses are going to still with FCP7 while these things get sorted out. I'd be willing to put money on that. In fact, I basically have to - as an FCP editor, this is my livelihood we're talking about. And though I don't trust Apple any further than I could throw them, I do think that either they or the third party apps will make FCPX into the great editor that it has the potential to be.

Cheers,
Arktic.
Posted: Thu, 23rd Jun 2011, 8:16am

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Joshua Davies

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Yeah, I think there will be TONS of small companies now hoping to fill in Apple's gaps as quickly as possible. This will be a great opportunity for those companies I'm sure!

I don't think professionals should count on Apple fixing these problems and re-complicating the product in some future update. They are not mistakes, FCPX is like this by design.
Posted: Thu, 23rd Jun 2011, 8:23am

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Serpent

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Can you elaborate on what "like this" means? I'm truly curious, as I've hardly caught a glance of the software beyond the new interface and features. From the professional impressions I've read from notable FCP editors who blog, it seems like the features FCP X lack are just that: features. Maybe I'm missing something here, the extent of my editing experience is with my personal projects, with local files, shot in digital video formats. But couldn't these features be implemented? I also thought that was one of the driving appeals of the Mac App store, when it was announced, that developers could easily update the software and deliver automatic updates.

Also, when you say Mac Apps are all strictly full-screen, do you mean like, Mail? Sticky notes? Text edit? iCal? iPhoto? I don't dig that concept in the first place, that should be entirely optional. I like visualizing my multitasking.

I hope Arktic's right. In the meantime, will definitely be taking an Avid course.

*grammar-edit

Last edited Thu, 23rd Jun 2011, 8:27am; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Thu, 23rd Jun 2011, 8:26am

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Arktic

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Yes, of course - this is how they've designed it, magnetic timeline, simplified interfaces and all that; but I think that they will realise that they've designed it in the wrong way wink

Of course, high-end users make up a small number of the possible purchasers - but they are likely to be some of the most vocal, and the best placed to call Apple out on it; nobody cares what Joe Average thinks about FCPX, but if some big names like Walter Murch or the Coen Brothers decry the new software - you can be *pretty* sure that Apple will sit up and take notice.

Edit:
I hope Arktic's right. In the meantime, will definitely be taking an Avid course.
That's not a bad shout, either way. It's always good to have another string to your bow - and you never know when a job might come up that needs you to have knowledge of both systems - for example, I worked on a BBC show where I was editing the offline on FCP, delivering the sound to an audio post house for sweetening, and then handing over the project to an AVID Nitris editor for Online editing / finishing. Knowing the quirks of both systems made the whole process a lot easier.

Last edited Thu, 23rd Jun 2011, 8:32am; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Thu, 23rd Jun 2011, 8:32am

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Simon K Jones

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Arktic wrote:

Yes, of course - this is how they've designed it, magnetic timeline, simplified interfaces and all that; but I think that they will realise that they've designed it in the wrong way wink
Whether it's deemed a mistake or not will depend on sales, I imagine.

Of course, high-end users make up a small number of the possible purchasers - but they are likely to be some of the most vocal, and the best placed to call Apple out on it; nobody cares what Joe Average thinks about FCPX, but if some big names like Walter Murch or the Coen Brothers decry the new software - you can be *pretty* sure that Apple will sit up and take notice.
Thing is, though, if they're aiming at a more casual filmmaker group, from holiday video/wedding people up to amateur people making fun stuff in their back yard: those people are not going to know or care what Walter Murch or the Coens think.

If Apple want to keep and develop the pro market, then they clearly have the ability to do so. But if they're focusing entirely on the consumer market, the opinion of the pros might not really mean much.
Posted: Thu, 23rd Jun 2011, 8:32am

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Joshua Davies

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There are reasons why the interface has more functionality in common with iMovie that it does with FCP7. Apple clearly think this is the best way forward for its demographic and they correctly believe a LOT of users to make the transition from iMovie to FCPX who were scared of FC Express.

iMovie is the worlds most popular editor because it is free with every Mac. They already have iMovie project support, but not FCP7 support and this again tells you something about their priorities. Apple are NOT inept in any conceivable way - everything they do has a purpose and its normally to do with greater profits. All software development is about priorities, and professionals CLEARLY are not a priority for Apple with this product.

The differences between FCPX and a typical professional editor (like FCP7) are not mistakes by Apple although some users of FCP7 seem to feel this way.

Apple is the MOST design lead company in the world.
Apple are second to NOBODY when it comes to the time and effort they put in to interface design.

FCPX operates exactly how it is meant to. It should also be noted that Apple has also focused far less on showing "cool" filmmakers using the product with this release. What would have impressed a FCP7 user would intimidate a consumer buying a $299 product as a step up from iMovie.

I bet when people look back in a year they'll see that FCPX might not be being used so much in broadcast and really high-end work, but the user base has massively expanded and the amount of content created in the product has increased. I also think Apple will be rather happy with the money they make from the product as well.
Posted: Thu, 23rd Jun 2011, 9:15am

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Atom

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Boom. Roasted. biggrin

The funniest statements I hear, both here and universally around the net, are how 'Apple will likely make these fixes in an update'.

Why do you think they streamlined and developed the NLE to be simpler? Because it certainly isn't so that they can just turn around and go make it more complicated by re-adding features.
Posted: Thu, 23rd Jun 2011, 9:19am

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Simon K Jones

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Atom wrote:

Boom. Roasted. biggrin

The funniest statements I hear, both here and universally around the net, are how 'Apple will likely make these fixes in an update'.
I wouldn't say it was funny - people being left in the lurch when they've built their professional services/company around a particular infrastructure isn't a good thing however you look at it.

It does go to show how it's risky to invest heavily in a specific platform, if you don't control that platform.
Posted: Thu, 23rd Jun 2011, 9:22am

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Arktic

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Rating: +1

Why do you think they streamlined and developed the NLE to be simpler? Because it certainly isn't so that they can just turn around and go make it more complicated by re-adding features.
Well, only time will tell if either Apple or, as I say, third parties add the functionality that FCPX is missing. Either way, it *will* happen. And when it does, I'm going to film myself doing a little jig, holding a sign saying "I told you so", and I'll come back to this thread and post it. razz

... Either that, or I'll have a sign saying "Out of work FCP editor, will offline for food" wink
Posted: Thu, 23rd Jun 2011, 11:15am

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Joshua Davies

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Remember that time you said Apple would make a blu-ray authoring product Arktic? Strange that they've dropped development of iDVD in the last iLife and now no DVD Studio Pro. DVD is dead to Apple, Blu-ray was never alive... It's about consumers and consuming content for them. The App Store makes software just another item to consume... Professionals don't give Apple enough cash any more period.

Why do you think they'll try and remake FCP7 in FCPX? They have specially set out not to do that with this release. I can't see them compromising the product for a few disgruntled professionals when that isn't the main market for the product. Some people complained when they changed the timeline on iMovie as well and what did Apple do? Nothing - they stuck to their guns and iMovie more popular than ever with the people they built it for. I do see 3rd parties doing what they can to fill the gap, and should this prove lucrative then Apple will incorporate more of these features in to FCPX.

Besides, with the products now available from Adobe, AVID and Autodesk, it would take more than adding a couple of old features to FCPX to make it a professional competitor. FCPX with Motion and Compressor don't come close to comparing to Adobe CS5.5 Production Premium - the functionality gap is bigger than ever and so is the price (which is less of a concern in professional circles).

Even before the preview at NAB, people were talking about the new FCP being aimed at the prosumer. At NAB, when people saw and discussed the new program with Apple, the same was being said (people called it iMovie Pro). The price being consumer level was the biggest hint of all. Why is everyone so surprised that it isn't a broadcast product any more? crazy It still looks great and while it won't be used by quite the same people, it will be used by hundreds of thousands more than before.

I'm still surprised so many professional people waited for this release as FCP7 was feeling pretty antique by the time FCPX landed. Shame they dropped FCP7 on the same day, seems rather harsh for those needing a solution right now.
Posted: Thu, 23rd Jun 2011, 11:35am

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Pooky

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Serpent wrote:

Also, when you say Mac Apps are all strictly full-screen, do you mean like, Mail? Sticky notes? Text edit? iCal? iPhoto? I don't dig that concept in the first place, that should be entirely optional. I like visualizing my multitasking.
OS X Lion puts a heavy focus on fullscreen apps, and they tout it as a feature that all their apps now have it.
Posted: Thu, 23rd Jun 2011, 12:07pm

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Serpent

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From what I can tell, it actually is completely optional. It's just a feature. An awesome one, I think.

http://www.apple.com/macosx/whats-new/


I'm actually really starting to like everything about all of this, from FCP to Lion, the more I read about it..
Posted: Thu, 23rd Jun 2011, 6:39pm

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Pooky

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Actually, I'm just wondering: if you exclude pros like Arktic, what kind of important features are missing for the rest of us? I'm talking me, Aculag, Serpent, and basically FXHome's main target demographic... none of us are pros, so is FCPX perfect for us?
Posted: Thu, 23rd Jun 2011, 6:50pm

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DigiSm89

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Pooky wrote:

...so is FCPX perfect for us?
I think clips of video placed onto Powerpoint slides with fade transitions and custom animations, all played back onto an external tv monitor (through a VCR) recorded onto a VHS (with sound input coming from a microphone attached to PC speakers with high grade celophane tape), then captured back into the PC through an AverTV USB capture device as an AVI file to be exported with open source DVD chapter construction and image burning tools onto a Memorex DVD is perfect for me, so no, FCPX isn't perfect for ALL of us.

razz
Posted: Thu, 23rd Jun 2011, 7:01pm

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Joshua Davies

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Pooky you're quite right.

While there is obviously a learning curve for those who are not new to editing, FCPX looks like one of the best NLEs for the FXhome demographic. The only other product I think which comes close for price/functionality is Sony Vegas Movie Studio.

They are both platform specific so there you have it, for our demographic (and those on a budget) the best editors out there (at the moment) are probably Sony Vegas Movie Studio HD Platinum 11 Production Suite and FCPX. smile

The other thing I like about FCPX is that I think it'll push for more innovation in consumer/prosumer NLE software. I really dislike the nonsense functionality added to so many inexpensive editing products on the market - you know, when they say "more than 100 transitions!" and its nearly all stuff nobody would seriously contemplate using. The new functionality in FCPX actually looks (for the most part) useful to a lot of users.
Posted: Thu, 23rd Jun 2011, 7:10pm

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Garrison

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Pooky, one piece of advice that was on LAFCPUG's site which I thought was pretty smart was to buy the tutorials first (like the one found on Ripple Training's Site), to see all the features and what not. $40 and you can't go wrong, and if you were set on buying FCPX anyway, then to me, it would be money you would have spent anyway to learn it.

My 2 cents
Posted: Thu, 23rd Jun 2011, 7:12pm

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Mike Q

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Where does hitfilm compare to fcpx and similar editors, is hitfilms editing more akin to imovie/windows movie maker.
Posted: Thu, 23rd Jun 2011, 7:26pm

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Atom

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Mike Q wrote:

Where does hitfilm compare to fcpx and similar editors, is hitfilms editing more akin to imovie/windows movie maker.
Based on my experience with the product, Hitfilm can do editing, and do it well in a non-linear timeline- but it certainly isn't made strictly for editing. (As it is, obviously, more-or-less a VFX program.)

What I can say based on my experience with it is that it definitely aligns more with iMovie and the current version of Windows MovieMaker, but it's got a slightly more-streamlined workflow, appearance, and better functionality- even if only by virtue of the fact that it's also got such an easy-to-use, robust visual effects system in it, too. biggrin

I would say, based on what I've seen and heard of FCPX, that Hitfilm could be considered somewhere close to that range of editing/NLE features, sure. But the fairest assessment would be to say it's best looked-at and used as an intermediary for people somewhere inbetween that iMovie/MovieMaker stage and the slightly more advanced-but-still-consumer-ish Vegas Movie Studio/FCPX level.

Though I should mention, if we're looking at and comparing FCPX and Vegas Movie Studio (which I think is a fair comparison)- that even the skimmed-down version of Vegas has stereoscopic 3D integration and Bluray authoring ability. Two features FCPX doesn't even try to touch.

But that's really besides the point. wink
Posted: Thu, 23rd Jun 2011, 7:31pm

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Pooky

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Atom wrote:

Though I should mention, if we're looking at and comparing FCPX and Vegas Movie Studio (which I think is a fair comparison)- that even the skimmed-down version of Vegas has stereoscopic 3D integration and Bluray authoring ability. Two features FCPX doesn't even try to touch.
To be fair, both features are dependent on hardware that is way too expensive at the moment.
Posted: Thu, 23rd Jun 2011, 7:33pm

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Mike Q

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cheers mate. As a vfx program I suppose it may come in handy having the editor built in, just for those times when you may need to trim, or rearange the odd shot.
Posted: Thu, 23rd Jun 2011, 8:04pm

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Simon K Jones

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Yeah, I've found that even though I edit primarily in Vegas Pro or Premiere Pro (having been using them for 10+ years!), I still do some editing in HitFilm when it's a VFX-heavy project, simply because it's so convenient. If you've just shot a fully-greenscreen project, there's nothing quite like editing it together then simply hitting the 'Make composite shot' button to jump directly into the VFX, and then toggling back and forth.

We've got a ton of ideas for HitFilm's editor, so if it's an area people are interested in there's lots more we can do with it.
Posted: Thu, 23rd Jun 2011, 8:22pm

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Pooky

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Tarn wrote:

We've got a ton of ideas for HitFilm's editor, so if it's an area people are interested in there's lots more we can do with it.
I'd certainly be interested in more NLE features!
Posted: Thu, 23rd Jun 2011, 8:34pm

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Mike Q

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How will hitfilm be in importing and using files from things like the 550d/t2i?
Posted: Thu, 23rd Jun 2011, 9:12pm

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NuttyBanana

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Atom, could I just put in a request that you try to refrain from slipping in snide remarks or 1 ups on mac/osx software in each of your posts?

I'm not a fanboy by any means or into these 'vs' conversations anyway as I'm with the idea that it's each to their own and what works best for them, but your comments are just grinding on me now. It's beginning to feel like you're suggesting anyone is a lesser editor for using what you consider to be lesser hardware/software than what you special people do. Just lay off it will you? Going off the main topic to slip in these extra tidbits is verging on irritating.

As for FCPX I'm holding off. Even with the low price point I'm not sure it's worth me upgrading yet. The iMovie interface killed me when I tried to use it and I love FCP 7. I was initially very excited for X though mainly down to features such as having full use of the power of my machine and things like that. I'll pick it up at some point but I can't say I'm as eager anymore.

Is there any thoughts on getting Hit Film built for OSX at all or is it a case of us p'ing into the wind if we keep asking about it?
Posted: Thu, 23rd Jun 2011, 9:52pm

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Atom

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NuttyBanana wrote:

Atom, could I just put in a request that you try to refrain from slipping in snide remarks or 1 ups on mac/osx software in each of your posts?
I'm only trying to come at it from a view as person who was intensely watching the development of FCPX, beginning to get lulled by Apple with my love of my new iPad and iPhone/iPod/etc., only to be disappointed with the result. I am not a PC lover, nor am I a Mac or FCP hater. I'm a consumer, and I'm a (decently) even one on the Apple/PC front. But I see where Apple is headed, and I get anxious for people buying into it hoping it'll continue down the professional-grade route. Because that's false hope to have, and it'll screw over (as Tarn mentioned) people who squarely invest their time and money only into it.

That I want to keep the limitations and abilities of the program grounded and understood that it is inferior is just my way of trying to be a cautiously helpful consumer on here. I kept several film students here in Austin from buying FCPX the moment it was released and from succumbing to misinformation, withholding of lack-of-features, and hype- and they've all told me they were glad I did. Hell, even Aculag seems to regret making the purchase already! I'm just trying to be conscientious in outlining that FCPX is not a tool to be seen as an update of FCP7 (or even in the same caliber, for that matter).

Moreover, it is part-wish, part-sensibility that I implore people looking into FCPX with more than a consumer interest but less than a professional-grade need to look into the rather fantastic Vegas Movie Studio series. It's cheaper, it's as simple, and it's more well-equipped and powerful. I'm not saying this for people interested in Mac or FCPX for the sake of FCPX. I'm saying this to and for the group of young filmmakers looking for a powerful but less intimidating option, which I think FCPX allures to the most. People like my 15-year-old brother, only now just getting into filmmaking himself. I ache to see people use under-utilizing and over-valued products when better and more-robust options are out there, and I apologize if this comes off as snark.

Pooky wrote:

Atom wrote:

Bluray authoring ability
To be fair, both features are dependent on hardware that is way too expensive at the moment.
Bluray authoring isn't a particularly expensive operation, though. I burned six BDs yesterday for a client and sent them off, along with DVD copies, no problem- and with little expense. To be able to do this on a program for the past 3-4 years and have the newest version of FCP have no capability- I'm just saying, it seems laughable to me. It's a standardized format. Use it, Apple. smile
Posted: Thu, 23rd Jun 2011, 11:11pm

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Garrison

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Article from the NY Times came out today.

FWIW

And for those of you that may be shifting to Premiere from FCP, you can use the XML.

Again FWIW
Posted: Thu, 23rd Jun 2011, 11:58pm

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CX3

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That NY Times article is pretty fail neutral
Posted: Fri, 24th Jun 2011, 12:00am

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Garrison

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I know - It's kinda amusing actually.
Posted: Fri, 24th Jun 2011, 1:35am

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DVStudio

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Rating: +1/-5

What continually baffles me is how Apple treats its users like crap, and yet, somehow you all still swear by their products and remain loyal to the last. They really have brainwashed you. All of you. Stand up for once and tell them what you want, not what Steve Jobs wants. That is why MS, Sony, and Adobe will always be better- Apple sacrifices professionalism, user input, and functionality in favor of aesthetics and trendy features that mean nothing.

That NYTimes article is right about one thing- this is iMovie Pro. Most certainly not a Final Cut product.

Their OS interface is not all that Serpent, I'm sorry. Sure, perhaps it suits your taste, but the taskbar with dock options suits mine far better. Don't give me that BS about OS interface- it means nothing and never will for video editing or media production of any sort. And Apple has made a right mess of things with the FC interface this time around, haven't they?

And, Atom, you are 100% right thus far. People, if you want professional software- Avid and Vegas are your choices now. wink Doesn’t get any better than that.

P.S. Serpent, you'd probably have something in common with the guy at 0:27 in this video. wink

Cheers!

Last edited Fri, 24th Jun 2011, 8:26pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Fri, 24th Jun 2011, 2:56am

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DigiSm89

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DVStudio wrote:

Don't give me that BS about OS interface- it means nothing and never will for video editing or media production of any sort.
Well, in defense of OS X lovers, there are elements of the OS X user interface that aid in video editing workflow and just about a lot of things artistic. For example, being able to scroll around in windows that are not in the foreground could have a lot of use during importing of files (saves the extra clicks). Then there is being able to simply push application windows off to different virtual screens and move to those screens effortlessly. I can see this having a lot of use when you want to move between an editing window and a few processing applications (which might even include a terminal)...don't need to minimize/maximize and re-adjust window positions each time.
Posted: Fri, 24th Jun 2011, 3:04am

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DVStudio

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Rating: +1

Hello. It's called Windows 7. Aero Snap. Multi-monitor support. Take you pick. It works far better than OSX if you ask me... wink
Posted: Fri, 24th Jun 2011, 3:19am

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jawajohnny

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DVStudio wrote:

What continually baffles me is how Apple treats its users like crap, and yet, somehow you all still swear by their products and remain loyal to the last. They really have brainwashed you. All of you. Stand up for once and tell them what you want, not what Steve effin' Jobs wants. That is why MS, Sony, and Adobe will always be better- Apple sacrifices professionalism, user input, and functionality in favor of aesthetics and trendy features that mean nothing.
Sorry DV, but that sounds awfully biased and fanboy-ish. For one, Apple has excellent customer service, and all of their products are far more reliable than their Microsoft (and other companies) equivalents. And I say this as a life-long Microsoft guy. Dell (and other PC companys') quality control and customer service just pales in comparison. I've had my Macbook Pro for over a year now, and it is absolutely the most reliable electronic device I've owned. That's not to say it's powerful or professional... because it's not. It's intended for everyday casual use, just like the vast majority of Apple products these days. I use a fairly powerful Dell machine for all my video editing and fx work, and I'll never change that. But I also own an iPod Touch... and will very likely own an iPhone or iPad at some point soon. I'll never buy another brand of music player, smartphone, or tablet, because Apple is so far ahead there.

My point here is only this. There's no reason for the Mac vs. PC debate to go on any longer. At this point, it's clear that they're going very separate ways... and that there will be room for the both of them. Essentially, I envision iOS becoming the interface of the future. In the future, every person, or at least every household, should literally be powered by iOS. It has the potential to do literally any "task" you want... right from your fingertips. Meanwhile, PC's will still be the choice for traditional work/professional applications. Creative projects, hardcore gaming, and large-scale networking. Basically, I can totally see Apple abandoning the "Mac" brand altogether in favor of iOS everything. It's the clear choice for them, just like it's a clear choice for Microsoft to just keep doing what they're doing.

Let's get over the Mac vs. PC "war". There really isn't one anymore.

As for Final Cut Pro X... based on the feature list, and my (and other fxhomers' assumptions), I'll be sticking with Vegas and Hitfilm. To put it bluntly, they can simply "do more" at this point.
Posted: Fri, 24th Jun 2011, 3:28am

Post 100 of 129

Serpent

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@DVStudio, no one else needs to read the wall-o-text, as this kind of thing is completely trivial (and this is all I have to say about this, no matter how much you want to, let's not turn this into something. I'd love to talk more with others about FCP X, the new features, and what's in store for the future more, but I've had enough of people calling me out for preferring to use Mac OSX and expressing excitement for it.)

Excuse me, are you really doing this, is it 2002 again? I'm pretty certain as to which operating system and software that I prefer to use in my daily life and workflows, and it has absolutely nothing to do with fanboyism or anything that you are implying. I've been a computer user for over a decade, started on a PC, and will be purchasing a PC next year for 3D modelling/rendering and gaming when I can afford it.

However, I will still use my Mac for daily computing, personal editing, imaging (which I currently practice professionally) and compositing. I have never been "treated like crap" by Apple, always been pleased with what they've had to offer me. I also don't buy every Apple product I see, I do my research and make an informed decision before dropping money on anything. And I know damn well they could completely disappoint me down the line, and if it got to that point then I'd most certainly make a change. But everything in my posts can be summed up in one sentence: "I'm simply being hopeful." Why the hell do you care? It seems like I'm the only one being singled out, when I'm really not saying all that much other than "well this looks like it could be cool."

If anyone in this topic is crazy about this, it's Arktic, who has more faith/trust in Apple than I would have with that much invested in it (again, I am not currently a professional freelance/in-house FCP editor). But I respect that, and just like him, I hope it turns out for the best. In our position, with our preferences: who wouldn't? Hopefully he has a plan B, and from what I know about Arktic, I'm sure he does.

The Mac/PC debate, in my opinion, is one of the lowest and most trivial back-and-forths one can engage in. I love PCs, and I'm glad you like yours, and I'm glad your software of choice works out for you. So please, leave me out of it. I have no problem with you being a Mac-hater. Don't give 2 sh*ts, hardly know you. Don't even care if you are under the assumption that I spend my mornings at Starbucks with thick-framed indy glasses, while I listen to some music you've probably never heard of while working on my novel on my sticker-covered, gloss-white Macbook--because that's actually kind of funny. But keep it to yourself please. This is a place I come to learn and network with other online filmmaking friends, and participate in intelligent discussions. Quantifying whose taste in their machine suites them better than Person B is probably the most ridiculous thing I've heard of, but I'm glad you put it that way. I'd be happy to share with you in a PM my daily practices and why they are extremely efficient for me, but that's just silly.

Just for the record, here are the assumptions I have about you: I've noticed that you are a PC user, I hope you love your PC. I bet you love your software, and I bet you love being creative with it; hope you do too. That's why I'm here, I assume that's why you're here too. I assume you are a fairly nice person, because up to this point you have seemed to be. And up to this point, I've enjoyed participating in discussions with you. I also assume that you hate Apple, and that it makes you feel better when you bash them and their users. If you've misled me on that one, prove me wrong.

So I mean really, can anyone who is "against" Apple and FCP (again, such a silly sentiment) just stick to their personal opinions on the software, after taking their own look at it? I'm glad I got to hear Atom's perspective, and I'm glad I got to hear everything schwar had to say about it. Looking at it from both sides, I am now more-informed, I am glad that they posted, and I will continue to inform myself about FCP X and the other options that I'd have. But I mean, look at your own posts. Almost everything you have said so far has been either expressing your approval of Atom's posts, making generalized statements about all of the software companies, or trying to spark some kind of back-and-forth based on non-existent objectivity.

That's all I have to say on that. If you've got a problem with it, take it up with me in a private message, but I doubt I'll be very engaging. That's not what this topic or forum is for.

Last edited Fri, 24th Jun 2011, 3:44am; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Fri, 24th Jun 2011, 3:43am

Post 101 of 129

DigiSm89

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DVStudio wrote:

Hello. It's called Windows 7. Aero Snap. Multi-monitor support. Take you pick. It works far better than OSX if you ask me... wink
Aero Snap is a business oriented feature, best used for document comparison. It's not the same.

Multi-monitor support...not exactly unique to Windows and again...not the same thing. I feel like the OS X interface is tailored very much to focusing on one thing at a time, the actual work you're trying to compose, leveraging our abilities of spacial memory for easily making the switch between application groups. On a multi-monitor setup, everything is displayed at once, which can be cumbersome to any sort of creative endeavor.

There are differences in workflow and some people prefer one over the other. As much as I couldn't care less about OS X or really anything related to Apple, I feel that it's rather tasteless to just assume that people mindlessly stick to one particular OS.

(And this is coming from a guy who can move between the three OSes just fine.)


EDIT: Sorry for adding fuel to the fire. I felt it needed to be said. This will be my last post on this topic.

Last edited Fri, 24th Jun 2011, 3:47am; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Fri, 24th Jun 2011, 3:44am

Post 102 of 129

RodyPolis

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I guess what annoys me more in the Mac vs PC debates is when Apple users make comments like this:

"You see the? desperation of the poor people trying to make funnies about us Apple users? Jealousy makes people hate so much. I'm really sorry the rest of you have to see blue-screens, viruses, application errors and generally a slow OS while us intelligent people buy macs and never have any computer problems. I used to only use winduhohs, then I found out how superior mac products are, switched, and have been nothing but happy since."

Not sure what a blue screen is so I can't comment on that. All I can say is that I haven't gotten it. Had my laptop for a year now and haven't had any virus problems. Although I am better than most people at avoiding viruses.

I've used Macs and they get application errors, they freeze, and they crash. I've 'Force Quit' things many times using my dads laptop.
About the speed, I'm not gonna comment on that as it's just ignorant.

I just hate how they have to assume PC users envy them because they can't afford the Macs. Sure I wish I had over $3500 to buy a Mac when I can get the same thing in PC for $1500 (It would cost me over $3500 to get a Mac like the PC I just got for $1500) but why would I? I like my computer and have no intentions of going anywhere else. But sadly most Mac users do indeed think if you don't use Mac, it's not because you don't want to but because you can't afford to.
Posted: Fri, 24th Jun 2011, 3:44am

Post 103 of 129

Atom

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jawajohnny wrote:

My point here is only this. There's no reason for the Mac vs. PC debate to go on any longer. At this point, it's clear that they're going very separate ways... and that there will be room for the both of them. Essentially, I envision iOS becoming the interface of the future.
Bingo Bingo Bingo.

This is all I've been saying for pages here. I own an iPad 2, an iPhone 4, a custom PC editing bay, and a Dell Vostro laptop all for this reason. My only hesitation and frustration isn't with Apple at all- it's with people who are delusional as to where their company is going and what they will support the most.

We live in a world continually moving towards PC computing and professional tools, and fun, pedestrian-use consumerism on devices through Apple. I am overjoyed at this. I no longer have to buy an expensive Mac, nor leave Windows. I've got both, and both are serviceable, justifiable purchases.

I hope the Mac userbase that's being left in the wind would understand this. It's a tragic thing for them, but it's awesome for new users- and editors open to many things with a preference in PC for pro stuff like myself. I edit in Vegas, I exhibit, share, tweet, and network my work on a Mac (iPad). This is where things are going, and as sad as it is- it's exciting to see.

Last edited Fri, 24th Jun 2011, 3:48am; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Fri, 24th Jun 2011, 3:48am

Post 104 of 129

Biblmac

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On the Mac v PC debate, it's like apples and oranges. End of story, and I like oranges, fyi. Anyway as I've said before I hope that Mac won't abandon all professionalism at this point, but for some reason that is the impression I'm getting. I'd love to hear more about the FCPX workflow though, as it does seem all rather new and different...

Have a wonderful day/night!

-Biblmac-

P.S. I've had two blue screens in the past two weeks... One today. Just thought I'd throw that in there since it was mentioned.
Posted: Fri, 24th Jun 2011, 3:55am

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Serpent

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RodyPolis wrote:


I just hate how they have to assume PC users envy them because they can't afford the Macs.
I'd just like to observe and point out that a huge part of what's wrong with this topic and other topics/discussions like this elsewhere, is that "they" aren't us. Just because we use Mac OSX or you use a PC doesn't mean any of us are like "those people." You can't just assume that an individual is part of that crowd because that crowd exists. I've never met such a Mac user for more than a minute, but I'm good at avoiding douches. Just don't make those kind of sweeping assumptions about individual people. That's where racism comes from, and it's an incredibly narrow way of discussing anything that leads to people saying "that thing SUCKS, why would you associate yourself with that thing?!"

Perfectly put MasterPie, don't think there was any bad fuel in that post. Hopefully an understanding has somewhat been reached, but that's all I have on this (for real this time wink).

EDIT: And really, I'm getting a -1 for explaining my side of it? That's not what the system is for, even if you disagree with me. That was direct response to DVStudio. I'm going to ask that the mods remove that, because it's truly uncalled for. I know I wasn't as concise as MasterPie, sorry for the text wall and all that, but I'm the one that's being specifically called out here to respond.

Last edited Fri, 24th Jun 2011, 4:05am; edited 2 times in total.

Posted: Fri, 24th Jun 2011, 4:00am

Post 106 of 129

Atom

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Biblmac wrote:

P.S. I've had two blue screens in the past two weeks... One today. Just thought I'd throw that in there since it was mentioned.
Aren't you also the same person who runs Disk Cleanup and Defrag twice a week? wink

Never had a real serious issue with any PC I've ever used. Never had an issue with any Mac device I've ever owned. Where I have had and continue to have issues is with slow Mac computers- and this is both the most logical and most-resonant argument against using them (or at least voicing opinions on why they shouldn't be used/bought-into the blind-faith-userbase way that they are)- they are behind the cutting edge nowadays.

They didn't used to be, but they are now. It's not a matter of value any more, it's just brass-tax. An i7 with 8GB of RAM is the max now. That's lower than thousands of PC options, and that didn't used to be the case. Used to be Mac ruled on the top 1% of power options, even if it cost you a mortgage. Even now, it doesn't.

But that's because they don't care. Cheaper, better products are what they're about. Not power, not cutting-edge in the computing regard. Something else entirely.

$200 is an outstanding value for an iPhone and what it does. It's ridiculous and almost laughable that the Galaxy Tab and others are more expensive than the lowest model of iPad- but that's true, too. And for these things, Apple gives insane bang for your buck. Great utility.

But it's utility for what they are. Not measurable to computers, and not made to be such.

Serpent wrote:

Just because we use Mac OSX or you use a PC doesn't mean any of us are like "those people." You can't just assume that an individual is part of that crowd because that crowd exists.
But, and while I agree with your sentiments here- I do tend to think Rody has a point. A huge stigma, and idelogical problem with Apple, as a company, is the overall mentality of the userbase they garner.

It's arrogant, it's oblivious, it's misinformed, it's blind to other options, it's undereducated on what it's buying, it's pretentious, it's smug. It's all of these things more than any other base I can think of.

And they may not be you, and yes- it's unfortunate that you may get lumped in with those people- but that's a reality of Apple. And until that userbase can make informed decisions, and buy and talk about Apple with at least a shroud of sensibility and understanding, it'll always be rightfully susceptible to this sort of hate.

There are rotten audiences in every auditorium. Apple just happens to have a loud, outspoken one. And sometimes, as with FCPX, it's fine to silence them with reality. But this isn't the case with everything and (generally) I do agree with you.

And I gave you that -1. As good of a point as you may have, you were ranting and (at least seemingly) emotional/dramatic in your post. Like you're 'hurt' for nonsensically thinking you're being 'called-out'. This is a debate, that's what it is- not a soap opera. That's no real hate or finger-pointing here. Just silly, you're playing into and off of everything wrong with DVstudio's post. If you're going to lambast him, don't do the same thing back with different wording. Deserved, man. Even if you can't see it. It's just a -1, NBD. wink
Posted: Fri, 24th Jun 2011, 4:21am

Post 107 of 129

Serpent

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Hey man, I don't care about the -1 itself, and I am not personally offended or hurt. But I will definitely defend myself when I'm called out, and I'm sick of being called out for being an enthusiastic person who uses Mac OSX. When something new is on the horizon, whether it's a film, or a video game, or a new camera or lens, or any new prospects for me in the future, I get excited about it. I love it, that's one of the things that keeps me going. It's just, when I express that excitement in the presence of some people, they become offended for some reason, and lash out at me.

I just have trouble understanding it, and if you're reading this and happen to be one of those people who will lump me in with a group and then bash me for my expression, well then I don't really want to interact with you online or at all. I read my post again, and still don't think a rating applies, but that's up to the mods and doesn't affect anything but how the conversation could be perceived. Look through the topic before DV decides to say those things about me: I had already explained myself, Arktic had jumped in with his identical point of view, and multiple other people had responded. I was singled out similar to how you had singled me out earlier, and it was just unwarranted, and in my eyes certainly required a response to make things clear.

Last edited Fri, 24th Jun 2011, 4:27am; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Fri, 24th Jun 2011, 4:27am

Post 108 of 129

Atom

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Serpent wrote:

I am not personally offended
and if you're reading this and happen to be one of those people who will lump me in with a group and then bash me for my expression, well then I don't really want to interact with you online or at all.
Hehe. Honestly, how do you not see this? biggrin

I don't think you're part of the blindly-delusional Apple crowdbase. But I also think there's such a thing as false/unwarranted/ingenuine enthusiasm, and that's the case here. You can be excited for FCPX and that's fine. Where I worry, is that naive young users will say you saying something like 'Apple hasn't disappointed me yet' and alluding to them adding back in features, which is entirely speculation, and making a decision based on the thought-process of 'Oh, hey- that guy experienced with Apple said they're adding back features to FCPX. Cool, I'll buy it now!'

I know that may seem far-fetched and oversimplified, but it's a sad, naive reality for many young 14-15-year-old users on forums like these. Hell, you know it was us all those years ago. So I see some need to defend against that. But it isn't hating on anyone for liking or being hopeful for Macs. No, not at all.
Posted: Fri, 24th Jun 2011, 4:31am

Post 109 of 129

Serpent

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I see what you're saying, which is why you're counter posts to mine were great for the topic. I'll try to tone it down and keep those people in mind more, though I honestly did try to litter my posts with a level of skepticism.


Though I assure you, I am not remotely "hurt" by any baseless thing that DVStudio said, I've just said my part. It's funny that you think that though, I'm honestly just trying to divert what I see as complete and utter silliness. If he wants to *continue* to carry on like that, why would I want to interact with him at all in this kind of context? That's no fun, and I'm here by choice. You're just reading posts that I've written, you don't know me in person, and certainly don't know what I'm thinking. There's nothing to "see" in that post, you're being terribly presumptuous.
Posted: Fri, 24th Jun 2011, 4:37am

Post 110 of 129

Atom

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Serpent wrote:

you don't know me in person, and certainly don't know what I'm thinking. There's nothing to "see" in that statement, you're being terribly presumptuous.
Okay, Mad-Eye Moody. wink
Posted: Fri, 24th Jun 2011, 8:05am

Post 111 of 129

Joshua Davies

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Lets not do the Mac vs PC thing. They are both absolutely great!

With the latest version of Windows and Mac OS X you have two rock solid operating systems. If either one isn't operating correctly you either have old/duff hardware (time to get a new computer) or installed some bad software (that'll be user error then).

In this day and age there is absolutely no reason to be calling either operating system more stable than the other, nor fighting over which is more prone to viruses and vulnerabilities.

They both have different features, both of which fill the users of the opposing operating system with envy.

There is only one thing which is for certain... Microsoft have a MUCH harder job than Apple making their OS run on so many system configurations so well - it is utterly unbelievable that they are able to do it!
Posted: Fri, 24th Jun 2011, 9:23am

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Arktic

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The rumour mill does seem to suggest that Apple are planning on replacing some of the missing functionality that was lost between FCP7 and FCPX.

AJA have released their beta FCPX drivers that restore a lot of missing functionality (edit to tape, output to an external video monitor etc). It sounds like BlackMagic aren't too far behind.

Automatic Duck already have an EDL and OMF exporter that's compatible with FCPX. There's no way they didn't develop that with Apple's knowledge and support.

Apple have apparently said that other missing features like assignable audio tracks and multicam editing will be restored in a future release.

All these things are positive signs - perhaps people have been too quick to write FCPX off. It does suggest to me that Apple intend to restore the missing features, or they're allowing third party suppliers to step in and add the functionality we require in the professional environment.

Perhaps that's what they're going for; they release the 'basic' version of the software, and if you're a home user, that's all you'll need. But if you're a pro, you buy a couple of extra plugins from AJA and Automatic Duck, and you're set to go with all the top end features. And the lower price point would make sense if Apple think you'll need to buy extra plugins to bring it up to full spec. Sort of like a customisable software - you only pay for the elements you require.

Maybe I'm being too optimistic, but I think that it's too early to either write the software off altogether, or sing it's praises. Only time will tell.
Posted: Fri, 24th Jun 2011, 1:45pm

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DVStudio

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Just for the record, Serpent, I did not give you those -1s. But I am thinking about it... wink

Funny, I get -2 for doing the exact same thing as you... but yours get removed?

Serpent wrote:

I'm going to ask that the mods remove that, because it's truly uncalled for.
I guess I'll be doing the same then, or you can have some decency and remove yours yourself.
Posted: Fri, 24th Jun 2011, 4:55pm

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Mike Q

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is it me being a bit synical, or was this whole debate planned, what I meen is, was fcpx released with these missing functions on purpose, they had the "upgrade" all ready from the get go, knowing the sh!t storm that was coming. Then they can say, "Oh we've listened to our users and were going to reintroduce them. think
Posted: Fri, 24th Jun 2011, 8:25pm

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DVStudio

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Serpent (and anyone else this may concern)-

I just finished reading your post over, and I just wanted to say that I appreciate that you have enjoyed discussions in the past. I feel the same way as well, just not in this thread. I respect your opinion, but at the same time, I feel the need to challenge that. I certainly meant no offense in this case, and as you say, in hindsight, more of that dispute ought to have been directed towards Arktic, not so much yourself. I admit that I hadn’t completely read every post in this particular thread, and I apologize for that.

I am glad that you have found something that works for you. That’s really all that matters , but when people make uneducated comments and praise a company for what they’ve done (even though its not much benefit to US- video editors) that’s a problem.

I honestly don’t care about how user friendly the interface is. For any operating system. Or how great iOS is. All that matters in regards to video editing and visual effects is the software that pertains to that. And I think that’s the most important consideration for computers for users on this site.

In addition, I do not like the direction that Apple is headed. As Atom said, they’ve found their market- mobile users, college kids, casual purposes. In some aspects they cater to those people well. In others, there is room for improvement. And that’s the same with MS. They could do more of course to develop applications and operating systems that support media and social activities better, but in light of what I’ve see of Windows 8 and used with Windows 7 Mobile, I think they are pretty much there. Until I feel that I could have a better experience on a different platform, I will not consider switching.

(This part is not for Serpent necessarily)- I feel that I have quite a bit of experience in computer terms- I have worked in the IT department over the last three years for a major, international corporation. I taught myself a number of programming languages, have developed a few websites (and helped a few of you out with that), and have created countless computer and software tutorials that have proven to be useful and quite accurate. I have experience using Windows 95 all the way up through Windows 7 and have owned every Windows OS since then. I have also used iOS on both the iPhone and iPod Touch and have worked on friends' Macs. At work, we run Redhat Linux on the servers so I have experience working with that as well. So, I do know what I am talking about, and I do not feel that I am biased, but simply favor what I see as the better software.

All that I was trying to do was to understand what it is that you Apple users enjoy so much. Atom touched on some of that, but I am talking about in regards to photo/video/production use. Sure, I see the benefits of software like Garageband, but how is it better than Acid/Soundbooth/Keystudio? And, Serpent, I’d assume a pro like yourself employs the use of Photoshop, right? So, why is it better on a Mac, when the software runs just as good on a PC that is often times cheaper?

This is what I am trying to understand. I guess a few people took that the wrong way, judging by the -1s. So mature, by the way. I did nothing other than disagree with a few of you, and look what I got. That’s abusing the system, without a doubt. Messaging Tarn about that shortly…

Cheers,
DV
Posted: Fri, 24th Jun 2011, 10:05pm

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Aculag

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DVStudio wrote:

I guess a few people took that the wrong way, judging by the -1s. So mature, by the way. I did nothing other than disagree with a few of you, and look what I got. That’s abusing the system, without a doubt. Messaging Tarn about that shortly…
I guess next time you should ask these questions without saying "You're all brainwashed. All of you." I think people are open to discussion about this, but your post came off as needlessly stirring the pot, generalizing, and insulting Mac users (not Macs, Mac users) just because you don't like Apple. Even the most "snarky" of Atom's posts in this thread have been considerably more civil than yours was. You're coming off as this totally irrational PC fanboy, and I don't really see how that's any different from someone being an avid Apple fan. You seem to be just using this thread as an excuse to lash out against Mac users, and when you post things like that, no one cares if you have a background in computing, because you just sound like a dick. unsure

If you need explanations for why some people use a certain thing, and others don't (apart from personal taste, which shouldn't be of any concern to you): Me personally, I only started using Macs because I was turned on to Final Cut Pro by a friend. I was fine using Premiere on my PC until then, and back in 2002, switching to FCP and thus, a Mac, was justified. Had it been 2010, I probably would have just bought a new PC and used Premiere CS5. At the time, Final Cut Pro was much better than Premiere, and I enjoyed working with it, and I still do, and that's why I still use a Mac. I'm a fan of Apple products in general, but I'm not the kind of person to say that they're better than anything else that's comparable, and I'm certainly not the type to go out and buy every new product they release just because it's a new Apple product. Yes, I bought FCPX, and yes it was a disappointment, but I'm getting used to it. It's no FCP7, though, that's for damn sure, and, foolish as it was to buy it straight away, I'm not trying to desperately come up with reasons why that purchase was justified. I, like many, thought it was going to be much different than it is, and I paid the price for jumping the gun.

Anyway, it isn't important to me to have that brand identity, but you're right, it is important for some people. I have a relatively new Mac Pro, but I use Windows 7 on it more than I use OSX, simply because I find the interface more pleasant, and it has some great features that OSX doesn't do. But really it all just comes down to taste. Some people prefer Windows, some prefer OSX, some prefer Linux. Who cares? I'd also say that, in my case anyway, I'm just more used to working on Macs, since I've done so for almost 10 years. If I was to switch over to a PC at this point, not only would I have to buy a new computer, but I'd also have to re-pay for all of the software I use (After Effects, Photoshop, etc.) Again, not going to say it's better or worse than anything else, but it's what I have, so it's what I use.

However, you're definitely right that many Apple fans are completely obsessed with it. I read an article recently that said for an Apple fanatic, seeing a new product registers in the same part of the brain that seeing a religious icon would to a religious person. It's not really surprising, considering that's part of how Apple has become so huge. They tout every new product they make as being "revolutionary", when it's really just a well-designed, and well-marketed, higher-cost version of something else that already exists.
Posted: Sat, 25th Jun 2011, 12:09am

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Arktic

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Guys - no more Mac vs PC debate. And certainly no religion. They're both restricted topics.

I'm not going to lock or delete this thread because I know lots of people, myself included, are interested in FCPX's development and the community reaction to it. Everyone has had a chance to say their piece now, so let's leave it there.

Any further straying into the restricted subject matter will be deleted on sight.

Cheers.
Posted: Sat, 25th Jun 2011, 6:47am

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Sollthar

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywNG6GXBZuU

Hehehehehe
Posted: Sat, 25th Jun 2011, 6:58am

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RodyPolis

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Sollthar wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywNG6GXBZuU

Hehehehehe
Lol genius!
Posted: Sat, 25th Jun 2011, 8:46am

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Arktic

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Sollthar wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywNG6GXBZuU

Hehehehehe
Brilliant - that's exactly the kind of thing I was thinking about when I said that some 'big names' will become vocal about this. It's happened a lot quicker than I expected, and it's likely not to be the last high profile insult to Apple.

Obviously it's done for humorous effect - but Apple's latest software has been slammed in front of 1.5 to 2 million viewers; and if the clip goes viral online, then it's going to reach a lot of people. And some of those people will be Joe the backyard filmmaker, and it is going to affect their perception of the product.

If I worked in Apple PR or the development team for FCP, and my software was being trashed on network television in the US... I know I would be a bit nervous.
Posted: Sat, 25th Jun 2011, 1:28pm

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Serpent

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No one will perceive it as a real slam though, except for maybe FCP users/video editors who are privvy to the situation, who took it that way. It's nice that it came off sarcastically at all, but Conan O'Brien's skits and brand of humor are extremely silly to the point that they are not taken seriously, so people will just assume they are being ridiculous as usual.

Those are the kinds of editing mistakes that anyone with any software can avoid obviously. This is just how it's done in every episode of Conan about nearly everything, and no one will think twice of it or take it remotely seriously. That's a misleading Youtube title, in my opinion. I'm a big Conan fan, watch it daily, and I don't think that's how his audience took that at all, and it will have little effect on this.

Still, very funny, and it's great that it's on the table in general, as expected, and I'm sure this sentiment will continue. But I'd hardly call that a public slam, that's just Conan being Conan. For it to be addressed, the big names we need are legit editors/filmmakers making actual statements, users complaining, App store feedback, editing bloggers, etc etc. This is just a vague joke, don't expect it will be taken as more than that, unfortunately.

TL;DR: I don't think this is the vocality you were hoping for.
Posted: Sat, 25th Jun 2011, 4:53pm

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Atom

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Just FYI, Conan isn't network television- it's basic cable, Arktic. It's on TBS.
Posted: Sat, 25th Jun 2011, 5:00pm

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Aculag

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Arktic wrote:

If I worked in Apple PR or the development team for FCP, and my software was being trashed on network television in the US... I know I would be a bit nervous.
I would think that the two-star ratings worldwide would do more to make Apple nervous than a Conan clip would. I really doubt that's the reception they expected.
Posted: Mon, 27th Jun 2011, 1:53am

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Tim L

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Gosh, I almost hate jumping into this mess... but I'm curious.

I've never really used a Mac (except playing with the original little Macintosh SE with the 9" black and white screen that I bought cheap at an auction one time solely as a "computer collectible" piece of history)... Anyway, I use Vegas Pro, just doing home hobbyist stuff, on a Win 7 PC. But I really have nothing against Apple or against Mac users.

So, if Apple really does pull the plug on its professional users, where do you Apple users see the pro segments and FCP-based production houses going? Is Avid or is Premiere an easier transition for FCP editors? Is there anything else out there?

Really, this is just idle curiosity on my part. In your doomsday plan, if FCP truly dies as a pro-level system, where would you/your company go and why. (That is, assuming that this happens before HitFilm takes over the world...)
Posted: Mon, 27th Jun 2011, 3:05am

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RodyPolis

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Tim L wrote:

(That is, assuming that this happens before HitFilm takes over the world...)
Hahahaha Hitfilm will take over the world next month so we don't have to worry about that.
Posted: Mon, 27th Jun 2011, 6:03am

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Garrison

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Tim L wrote:

So, if Apple really does pull the plug on its professional users, where do you Apple users see the pro segments and FCP-based production houses going? Is Avid or is Premiere an easier transition for FCP editors? Is there anything else out there?
A good portion of the pros at LAFCPUG said that their going to Premiere or Avid. Most of them already know more than one editing system, and that's always a good thing... to diversify.

One of the forum mods (grafixjoe) is also close with Adobe peeps supposedly their phone is ringing off the hook (as I would imagine Avid's is as well).

Most of them will keep using FCP7 until as a production house, they'll need to migrate.
Posted: Mon, 27th Jun 2011, 9:00am

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Arktic

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Personally, I think that if people do end up having to switch, it'll be to Premiere rather than AVID.

AVID is great, but I think that FCP and Premiere are much more alike. Plus, After Effects is a pretty standard tool - and as the integration will be better between AE and Premiere, I can see that being a big factor in the decision.

But I still think it's very early days! Hopefully it won't come to a full scale mass migration smile
Posted: Mon, 27th Jun 2011, 5:00pm

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Serpent

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Right now, this software doesn't lack enough features for me to drop it for personal use. I want to take it for a spin first though.

But if it were to come to that and I was freelancing from home, I'd switch to Premiere. I don't really know anything about the Avid software solutions, but I love what CS5 has to offer. I've always liked Premiere, 6.5 was my first software that was a step-up from iMovie, and I've used all of the versions since then. It's taken them a bit to get there, but it sounds to me like they are 'there.'

Overall though, I bet facilities using FCP will probably move up to Avid machines, but that's just an educated guess. That's what I'll be learning, since a big majority of work here is done in Avid. I've spoken to many editors who started working in FCP for their own work, then started doing work in Avid, which is much different, and they said the transition is a matter of taking a course, or getting brushed up on the system, and that it could take a matter of weeks to get up-to-speed. Editing concepts transfer over, so it's all about learning the interface and workflow, and re-enforcing through practice. That's all anecdotal though, I've yet to scratch Avid's surface personally.
Posted: Thu, 30th Jun 2011, 5:37pm

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Biblmac

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I saw this and thought you guys might find it interesting.