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What do you think of the USA?

Posted: Thu, 19th Sep 2002, 12:17am

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wpl

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what do you think about us Americans?

with all the war stuff and all?
I am from the US and just wanted to know what others thought of us
Posted: Thu, 19th Sep 2002, 12:22am

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raider

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terrorism sucks - end of story. I don't like the idea of your post. What's with the (i know i know) in your profile? evil
Posted: Thu, 19th Sep 2002, 12:46am

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MeetTheBeatles

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Liberty will not descend to a people; a people must raise themselves to liberty; it is a blessing that must be earned before it can be enjoyed. It would be well of you WiRyPoCkEtLiNt to have hope in that.
Hope is a duty as well as a comfort. He who ceases to look forward to the future with hope ceases to work with a will in the present. As long as we have work to do or burdens to carry, let us hope for something better than is now in our possession. We ought not to be satisfied with, though we have to be contented in, that which the present gives us.
I have hope in the future. I have hope that things will be alright. And I have hope in this nation, the United States of America. Do you?
Posted: Thu, 19th Sep 2002, 12:49am

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anonymous

raider wrote:

terrorism sucks - end of story. I don't like the idea of your post. What's with the (i know i know) in your profile? evil
i agree with you i just have had alot of foriegn students who thought that america had gone a little over and i just wanted to see if everyone thought that.

as for my profile it was a joke......most people not from the US that I have I have talked to in person don't like us to much
Posted: Thu, 19th Sep 2002, 1:16am

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wpl

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that was me


I will change my profile
Posted: Thu, 19th Sep 2002, 1:27am

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wpl

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MeetTheBeatles wrote:

Liberty will not descend to a people; a people must raise themselves to liberty; it is a blessing that must be earned before it can be enjoyed. It would be well of you WiRyPoCkEtLiNt to have hope in that.
Hope is a duty as well as a comfort. He who ceases to look forward to the future with hope ceases to work with a will in the present. As long as we have work to do or burdens to carry, let us hope for something better than is now in our possession. We ought not to be satisfied with, though we have to be contented in, that which the present gives us.
I have hope in the future. I have hope that things will be alright. And I have hope in this nation, the United States of America. Do you?
i agree with you also

and I am very sorry if I made anyone upset I just wanted to know if what I ahd heard was true
Posted: Thu, 19th Sep 2002, 1:36am

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MeetTheBeatles

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+1 for your profile WiRyPoCkEtLiNt. No matter where you are in this world, you will always be challenged for who you are in this world.
You did not upset me WiRyPoCkEtLiNt, I see your concern. All is well.
Posted: Thu, 19th Sep 2002, 2:10am

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Phage

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I am a Canadian and i personaly do not like the american government at all there lumber tax that they put on soft wood lumber have made people in canada and usa extremely unhappy because it has shut down tens of thousands of job and has risen the price of softwood in the states i find the government in america cocky and dishonest and abusing their power.
Posted: Thu, 19th Sep 2002, 2:15am

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raider

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i truly believe that peace and freedom for all is the ultimate goal of what we are doing. It's just too bad we have to do this with lots of bloodshed. But the enemy dictates the force we use. God bless the world. I am deploying soon and proud to do so.
Posted: Thu, 19th Sep 2002, 2:25am

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X

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Raider,

Thank you for serving. Take care and God bless you and your family. I will pray for you.
Posted: Thu, 19th Sep 2002, 2:33am

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raider

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X - thanks, very cool - appreciate it. I love deploying - I really enjoy the action - that's how I am. Some say I'm crazy for wanting to go, but the sense of duty and being there for a good cause is just overwhelming for me. I had access to the internet when I was in Bosnia - maybe I'll be able to keep in touch!!
Posted: Thu, 19th Sep 2002, 2:42am

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BDOG

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Saw on Fox News Chanel that a USA University has done a survey all around the world asking teenagers what they thought of the USA. Anyway every country was slightly negative towards the USA but at the same time they all or most admired your country.

I do not think it should concern you Americans too much. Why do you want everyone to love you anyway? ust be happy with who you are that is the most important. You guys are a superpower and have your fingers in a lot of pies in the international arena. Your foreign policy is at worst a little screwed up and at best misunderstood.

I watched Blackhawk Down again last night and it could not help but remind me of the futility of war. Young Americans (and other countries too) dead for what? I really wonder in 20 years how we will look back on this war in Afganistan and see if anything has really changed.

Anyways that is my rant becase you started it. I prefer Alam forum to be a bit more light hearted. If you want to get into these hot issues there is many sites the the Straight Dope to explore!
Posted: Thu, 19th Sep 2002, 2:50am

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anonymous

the USA is messed up no matter which side you look at it.

things suck here. drug policy. "war on terrorism" (BS). school budgeting. WTF? (im not up for going into detail)

but there are some good things too!

like . . . . bbq . . . . .

PS: Patriotism here is a scam. People sell things and say "show your US pride by purchasing this collectable figurine" and crap. that's not patriotism. thats just more BS

pps: saying BS and WTF isn't swearing
Posted: Thu, 19th Sep 2002, 3:10am

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MeetTheBeatles

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War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks nothing worth a
war, is worse...A man who has nothing which he cares about more than he does about his personal safety is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the existing of better men than himself.
Posted: Thu, 19th Sep 2002, 3:17am

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raider

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i really like those new commercials where the kid is asking for a particular book in the library and everyone there tries to get him. The tag line is what if America wasn't America. Yeah, everything may not be perfect here but freedom is cool. And our women don't get rocks thrown at them for showing an ankle. tard
Posted: Thu, 19th Sep 2002, 3:23am

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MeetTheBeatles

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To this I quote from some great men of the past:

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary
safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin

"It behoves every man who values liberty of conscience for himself, to
resist invasions of it in the case of others; or their case may, by change
of circumstances, become his own."
-Thomas Jefferson

"For the saddest epitaph which can be carved in memory of a vanished liberty is that it was lost because its possessors failed to stretch forth a saving hand while yet there was time."
-George Sutherland

"God grants liberty only to those who love it, and are always ready to guard and defend it."
-Daniel Webster
Posted: Thu, 19th Sep 2002, 3:33am

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Phage

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ah bdog your got it all wrong… people are slighly negitive because the us is abusing its power over trade then sorta saying "whatcha gonna do bout it" yes sure they are all postitive towards there own country but if you ask then about other countries what would they say about them its not "oh i love my country and hate yours" they hate the us because they are abusing there power but they do not nessisarly hate ALL other countries
Posted: Thu, 19th Sep 2002, 3:40am

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MeetTheBeatles

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Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness, that most frightens us. We ask ourselves: Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous,
talented and fabulous? Actually, who are you NOT to be? You are a child of God. Your playing small doesn't serve the world. There's nothing
enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around
you. We were born to make manifest the Glory of God that is within us. It
is not just in some of us; it is in everyone. And as we let our own Light
shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our fear, presence automatically liberates others.
Posted: Thu, 19th Sep 2002, 4:48am

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Phage

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BDOG look who the study is founded by AMERICANS OF COURSE IT GOING TO BE BIAS
Posted: Thu, 19th Sep 2002, 4:55am

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MeetTheBeatles

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Phage, I'll let you in onto a little secret...I'm a Brit living in the U.S.
Posted: Thu, 19th Sep 2002, 4:58am

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BDOG

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MeettheBeatles I am afraid I cannot understand one fricken word you say. Do not be offended this reflects on my intelligence not yours.

Now back to some other posts. Yes here you go as an Australian (although I do not live in Australia at the moment) here is what I read today on the front page of the paper.


US farmers move to kill free trade deal
America's most powerful farm lobbies are on the brink of scuttling a free trade agreement between Australia and the United States which the Howard Government claims would be worth up to $4 billion a year.

We still have SAS and other military people in Afganistan and our Prime Minister said he would send his own sons to IRAQ to help the USA (again) if need be and this is how we are repaid. Now my Dad is an Australian farmer. I still love the USA but you have to understand some people dont like the way it weilds its big stick internationally.

This is my last comment here becase I think AlamDV forums are not the appropraite place for such discussions.
Posted: Thu, 19th Sep 2002, 5:13am

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MeetTheBeatles

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Quite Right BDOG, I do understand what you are saying. If we would only testify to the truth as we see it, it would turn out at once that there are hundreds, thousands, and even millions of people just as we are, who see the truth as we do, are afraid as we are of seeming to be singular by confessing it, and are only waiting, again as we are, for someone to proclaim it. this power is both stong and weak.
I know that America has problems. I know that a lot needs to be done, both federally, and locally. But what I'm only saying is that we need to look bright at things.
Life appears to me too short to be spent in nursing animosity or registering wrong. BDOG, you offer an excellent opinion, and I think that your intelligence is more then well. Cheers
Posted: Thu, 19th Sep 2002, 6:19am

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moebius

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Meetthebeatles, no offense, but you really should go into politics - check out the rhetoric you're using! biggrin I have to take issue with one of your comments, however: namely, the assertion that you (and people like you) see the "truth"... honestly, I don't think anyone is entitled to claim that their views are "true" and alternative viewpoints are thus, well, less than true. Opinions are opinions, and unless they're grounded in irrefutable facts (e.g. the heliocentric theory), they can never assume the status of truths.

Make no mistake, I'm strongly anti-terrorist and hence pro-America, but I cannot stand by and watch someone pass off a personal opinion as God's truth smile
Posted: Thu, 19th Sep 2002, 6:50am

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anonymous

Moebius, Well put. I think that I was misunderstood. Never did I want to project that I was passing off my opinions as Gods truths. I'm not that big of an egotist. My truth is knowing that there is some good still in the world and that you can find it also in the United States, that not all is bad. I respect all opinions, do not get me wrong Moebius and please don't take me wrong in the assumption that I am trying to project feelings as Gods truths. I have a feeling I'm not qualified to speak for the Lord.
Again, I feel I was misunderstood. But thank you for your views Moebius, I really appreciated your opinions on this.
Cheers.
Posted: Thu, 19th Sep 2002, 6:54am

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MeetTheBeatles

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"!!!!!!I FORGOT TO LOGIN FOR IS LAST RESPONSE. SORRY!!!!!!"

Moebius, Well put. I think that I was misunderstood. Never did I want to project that I was passing off my opinions as Gods truths. I'm not that big of an egotist. My truth is knowing that there is some good still in the world and that you can find it also in the United States, that not all is bad. I respect all opinions, do not get me wrong Moebius and please don't take me wrong in the assumption that I am trying to project feelings as Gods truths. I have a feeling I'm not qualified to speak for the Lord.
Again, I feel I was misunderstood. But thank you for your views Moebius, I really appreciated your opinions on this.
Cheers.
Posted: Thu, 19th Sep 2002, 6:58am

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b4uask30male

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Just something to get your brain around.

Bush says any country that helps terrorist needs to be sorted out.

The USA helps the IRA.

should England bomb USA. ?

Bush should finish his fight with Bin laden, before picking a fight with others.


(But I think he done the right thing by attacking the terrorists, if only england would do the same about the IRA. )

(Someone suggested drag Irland out to sea and sink it, ) but the problem with that is the bad people are sitting in homes in England.
Posted: Thu, 19th Sep 2002, 8:43am

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domdino

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wars not make one great....
smile

Omar N. Bradley:
Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. We know more about war than we know about peace, more about killing than we know about living. We have grasped the mystery of the atom and rejected the Sermon on the Mount.
Posted: Thu, 19th Sep 2002, 8:57am

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billy3d

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Terrorism is usually also relate to OSAMA BIN LADEN
so here are...
Top ten ways MR OSAMA can improve his image
1. ......
2. urm......
3. lemme think...
4. hmmmm....
5. naa....
6 maybe...
7. maybe not...
8. arr.....
9. yeah!
10. there is no way he can ImPrOvE HIS IMAGE HE IS A MURDERING, SOULE LESS @$$hole
billy
Posted: Thu, 19th Sep 2002, 9:04am

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b4uask30male

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FACT. Religion IS THE BIGGEST cause of death EVER.
( except for a big meteor )

Stop teaching children about different gods, forget religion, use the churches for the homeless.

And when the last child is born into this world with out religion, the word will have freedom.

a,men.

we all come from aliens anyway. eek
Posted: Thu, 19th Sep 2002, 9:05am

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domdino

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crazy
Hmmm, i take it ur american billy? i know what happened was absolutely awful and i don't agree with it in anyway, but we are very very presumptious about a nation we know very little about.

They are a starving 3rd world country, their only salvation lies in their beliefs which are very different from our own in the western world, so perhaps rather than just dropping a bomb on an entire country we should find out what the problem is. If you look at how they cheered when the WTC collapsed, there has to be a reason for all that rage against the US. If you think about it, in a war, if we were to say kill 20,000 of the enemy, whether innocent or not we would be equally happy with ourselves and that is the problem i think all together.

People are too stressed out. I think thats the problem, get everyone doped up and it'll all be perfect! smile
Posted: Thu, 19th Sep 2002, 9:53am

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Sollthar

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Most people in switzerland or germany don´t like the americans very much. They think of them as an arrogant, patriotic and stupid folks who think they´re better than the rest of the world. Only a few defend them.

I actually like the USA and I know many americans wich I see are no dumber than some swiss or german people I know... smile

But to be honest, I think Bush is a very dangerous man and one of the biggest mistakes the USA made the last decades...
Posted: Thu, 19th Sep 2002, 2:32pm

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Two Gunned Saint

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I think that America should sit back and think why are there so many countries that hate them, Why did we let someone who seems totally incapable in power, why have so many people died over the past decade as a result of americas actions and what can be done to stop anymore. Also why, oh why did Bush say "You're either with us or against us" on the subject of 9/11 That's the most stupid thing to say. I was as saddened as everyone else, if there was something I could have done to stop it I would, but if that means I was expected to support what was basically a revenge attack which would undoubtedly result in more death then balls to that. Finally why are we dwelling on this subject let's just forget it and have a drink. biggrin
Posted: Thu, 19th Sep 2002, 4:14pm

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wpl

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thank-you for the feed back I think this subject was a little to heated for alam and I want to end it now.

sorry i should not have posted this and I just thought it would be a good way to see if what I had heard was true
Posted: Thu, 19th Sep 2002, 5:35pm

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moebius

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I'd like to end on a positive note: we're still buds, ain't we, Meetthebeatles? biggrin We're all buds here on the AlamDV forum! lol
Posted: Thu, 19th Sep 2002, 6:19pm

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MeetTheBeatles

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We most certainly are Moebius, we are. biggrin Thanks buddy.
Jason
Posted: Thu, 19th Sep 2002, 6:22pm

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X

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Hello,

I have to say a couple of things. 1 putting politics and religion in one thread is very hard. I am going to try to respond.

I am a Christian and an American. I would love to discuss either but think that they should be discussed off-line. I don't think Malone wants thins to be a controversial discussion board. (Malone please let me know if I am wrong wink )

Here are my views on both: 1. I am Christian because I believe that there is one way to heaven: You have to accept Christ as God the son. That's it. Doesn't matter how good/bad rich/poor black/white that's the only requirement. 2. I think America is the greatest country in the world but needs to work on being a better neighbor.

If you want to discuss either Christianity or Americanism (i just made that word up I think) please pm me or send me an e-mail.
Posted: Thu, 19th Sep 2002, 6:55pm

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wpl

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sorry malone I did not mean for it to be so controversial you can get ride of this topic if you want
Posted: Thu, 19th Sep 2002, 7:30pm

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av11d

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I probably should comment on such a thing, but I really wanted to. (Also, sorry if i offend anyone, it's not on purpose, believe me!)

I don't truly believe in religion. But i think the only way I am able to say that is because I'm not currently confined to any religion. I don't practice any religion, but I'm not an atheist. I think of it like this: If you're christian, it is most likely because that is what your parents were, and they sent you to religious school. Most likely, if your parents were jewish, you wouldn't be christian right now, you would be jewish. That, to me, defeats the whole underlying of religion. You are only believing in what you were TAUGHT to believe in. If you didn't know about christianity (or any other religion) and taught about it, how would you be able to practice it? Therefore, is a person that is brought it up not knowing of religion, denied entrance to heaven?

Religion has killed many people, and is still killing many people.

I feel I was LUCKY to not be brought up with religion, I feel free to believe in whatever i want to believe, and that I don't owe anyone anything. I still have morals, but they are MY morals.

I believe religion was originally just an idea, by some great unknown person. The person probably thought Religion would be a great thing: it would give people a sense of belonging, morals, and a faith to go on.

I'm not saying religion is bad, because it DOES give those things and it DOES make you feel good. But I think it is also important to believe in what YOU want to believe in. Don't take everything easily, doubt all.
Posted: Thu, 19th Sep 2002, 7:35pm

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moebius

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I suggest we drop the topic smile There are 3 themes that should be left out of any any polite conversation (i.e. lest the conversation be rendered less polite): religion, race and politics biggrin
Posted: Thu, 19th Sep 2002, 8:01pm

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wpl

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moebius wrote:

I suggest we drop the topic smile There are 3 themes that should be left out of any any polite conversation (i.e. lest the conversation be rendered less polite): religion, race and politics biggrin
I agree that we should drop it
Posted: Thu, 19th Sep 2002, 8:28pm

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X

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I just have to comment on the fact that two people here say:

"Religion has killed many people."

So have people, movies, wars, politics etc .... I know many attrocities have been commited on the grounds of religion but people can pick just about any reason to kill someone it doesn't mean you throw it out. I think that the truth is out there. I think you can know. I think I do. I know it sounds very arogant but I think I can back it up. Just not in one post lol I'll talk at length to anyone about it. I would love to. PM me, e-mail what ever.

"Therefore, is a person that is brought it up not knowing of religion, denied entrance to heaven?" Yes! Off to Hell with them! eek No. I shouldn't kid but I wanted to lighten it up. No. They can get in. Yeah I am one-for-one in the question department. I can back it up too.

You should question everything. But everyone can't be right. There is a truth out there. I know you can know it. (I know that sounds big headed and sorry about that) but it is true.

I also think that the truth isn't relative. If it was I would have the "groovy chic" religion and make myself a God and etc......

Anyway.... I'll stop but if anyone wants... e-mail me.
Posted: Thu, 19th Sep 2002, 10:17pm

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Phage

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wow this is turning into quite a philisophical arguement while i was doing other stuff YES RELIGION IS THE LARGEST CAUSE OF DEATH EVER i mean look at the middle ages… but yes other stuff kills people too osama did it in the name of religion even though not in one bit is he religius but about the iraq thing yes the us WOULD NOT go onto something else unless they killed him which they have done but they do not want him to become a martyr so they did not tell the populus and not they are going to kill saddam hussein in the name of terrorism but really because he is a thorn in their side.
Posted: Thu, 19th Sep 2002, 11:26pm

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Phage

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they are attacking iraq as a show off power to there populus making them think there still doing something about terrorism

Last edited Fri, 20th Sep 2002, 12:14am; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Thu, 19th Sep 2002, 11:26pm

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raider

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America has a reason behind every conflict we enter. Menial civilians can not know everything that is going on with a particular country or its ruling party. Some people don't leave their city or village their whole lives!! Blaming America is a gimme - it's like blaming Microsoft when technology frustrates us, even though there are an astronomical number of tech corporations out there. I hate when I hear people say Americans killed all those poor people in Afghanistan sad . Ever been to a soccer game there?? I was raised to believe certain things, but as I aged and was on my own - I came to realize that there are certain things that are right, wrong, evil, and good. Believing in and steering yourself toward God and good morals = Good. Beheading people in front of children for having an opinion = Bad. I lived in Germany and didn't have a problem with anyone. We were there FOR them. You think we had to drop all that food over Afghanistan that the taliban sequestered? Final word: I like individuals for what they stand for - not what country they're from. If you're from Afghanistan and a decent human being without a hidden agenda - you could be my best friend. Don't hate me for being an American - I'd die helping all you out there; your country because it's for the good of your life and your family's lives. It's what I believe and stand for (not necessarily the US President, my boss) - now I'm goin' make some movies.
Posted: Fri, 20th Sep 2002, 1:34am

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sidewinder

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First off, let me say that I'D LIKE TO KEEP THIS TOPIC. I enjoy (gasp!) taking politics, and I would like to start off by saying that even if I disagree with you, and trounce all of your opinions, it's just in a godd-hearted debate. wink



So without furthur adue...


Phage: Wake Up

the way you think of America and justify disliking it is the same way Osama does it, but you do it on a much tinier scale. He didn't attack us because of some sort of oppression or misunderstanding. He attacked us because he didn't like our ideals and the fact that people can be free to worship any god they want, and that someone with some motivation and brains can make more money than he can.

Your reason for us attacking Iraq is just some fluff trying to justify what you don't like. People seem to convince themselves that their hate is okay, even if they're being hypocritical.

For Example:

You often here people crticizing America for "not minding their own business". they say that we are oppressive, and exploite the counties we invade. They poo poo us when we kill someone in another country, because we're just messing up their culture.

Then a few seconds later...

They complain that we never sent troops into Africa to stop the fighting going on there.

BAH!

If you want to criticize America, back it up with some facts, or some logic. Don't make something up just because you want an excuse for your jealousy or anger.




P.S. PLEASE DON'T DELETE OR LOCK THIS TOPIC!!

P.P.S. Raider, and X, you guys are cool.
Posted: Fri, 20th Sep 2002, 1:44am

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sidewinder

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OH, and by the way...

Religion hasn't killed the most people. Governments have.

Think about it, and you'll realize I'm right.
Posted: Fri, 20th Sep 2002, 1:51am

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Sollthar

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The only sad thing about america is that too many americans actually believe what some of you just said... smile


Oh, and just for the record. I am an Atheist and therefore I do not believe in god, devil, heaven, hell, angels, souls, life after death and whatever else is bound to it. I see the bible as the oldest fairytale book in the history of mankind, a good fairytale i might add, but a fairytale... And I agree that religions are too often reasons for people beeing hostile to others.
Posted: Fri, 20th Sep 2002, 2:21am

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raider

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Wow - what would the world be like if America didn't butt in? I don't think there would be too many neutral countries out there. They would have to fend for themselves. Thank GOD! Adolph - how ironic. Tony Blair rocks! I just like the guy.
Posted: Fri, 20th Sep 2002, 2:24am

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raider

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The Charlie's Angels movie bites, I think. evil
Posted: Fri, 20th Sep 2002, 2:34am

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spotless

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Gosh. Going by the majority of posts on this topic, Americans seem to take patriotism VERY seriously. Thats one thing us Brits can't quite understand about you guys.

I like Blair too, but do wish he would unjam his nose from Bush's exit hole - I agree with Solthar; Bush is a mistake, a cretin when it comes to ambassadorial duties and I’m glad he does not lead my country or represent my views. On the whole; I think most Brits are rather fond of our American cousins, though. I think our countries stand for the same thing.

I just reread what I have written above and it struck me; isn’t it fantastic that we are able to express our opinions in this way. In some countries I would be shot for saying such things.


PS Sidewinder's right. DON'T LOCK OR DELETE THIS TOPIC! It is unfair to invite people to have 'general discussion' then censor intelligent and considered argument.
Posted: Fri, 20th Sep 2002, 2:49am

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spotless

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raider wrote:

Wow - what would the world be like if America didn't butt in? Adolph - how ironic.
Raider: Please don't tell us all again how America single-handedly won the Second World War. I don't know a single Brit who does not find that very offensive. Many countries were involved and we won TOGETHER.


Edit: If I misunderstood you, then I apologise. Its just those Hollywood WWII movies make me SICK. Mine and many other countries suffered greatly defeating that insane psycho so I get a bit touchy on the subject.

Last edited Fri, 20th Sep 2002, 2:54am; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Fri, 20th Sep 2002, 2:51am

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BDOG

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I would like to congratulate and thank all of you for keeping this intelligent and friendly. Sometimes for instance posts from non english speakers can get 'lost in the translation' and appear a little harsh etc.

Just remember before this thread was started we all got along well despite having many differences of opinion. Remember that when the thread finishes. biggrin
Posted: Fri, 20th Sep 2002, 2:58am

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spotless

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Well said.
We were all buddies before and we shall remain so after I'm sure!
Posted: Fri, 20th Sep 2002, 3:01am

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X

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For a fairy-tale book the Bible is surprisingly historical. Take Israel for example. They are they only people ever to have a homeland after being in exile for 2000 years. That's in there. Then you have alot of archiological evidence for it. Now I am going to see if someone writes back and says it is full of errors. before you do let me give you an example first.

An "error" everyone always gives in the Bible is that it says Christ was crucified by getting nails in his hands. People say you can't crucify someone by putting nails in his HANDS you have to put them in his WRISTS or they would fall down. This is true. So, does that mean the Bible is wrong? No. Now think about it. When they wrote it people were getting still getting crucified. Don't you think someone would have said, "Bob you idiot! It is the wrist not the hands!" and made this face tard ? Of course they would have. You don't think that that fact went by for what 2000 years and someone just figured that out do you? The explination is that when the Bible was written, we can argue that too wink , they considered the lower wrist part of the hand. Now you can still think that A. People who saw people getting crucified were too stupid to know how people got crucified and the Bible is wrong on that point. or B. It is a misunderstanding due to language differences.

Also, I would like to keep the thread. I think it is very worth while to debate.

On the topic of America. We did help out in 2 World Wars. I do think that some people are still a little miffed over that. It is like people still being ticked at England for colinization. I do think we are little off on the environment. People are very upset with us over the whole middle east thing too. Middle east... Bible.... that's in there too smile

Anyway... I'll wrap this post and wait. Back to editing!
Posted: Fri, 20th Sep 2002, 3:03am

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raider

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sorry spotless - that was in no way reference to that - I know it was a joint effort! I was referring to the Swiss president (his first name) - I just can't understand why the Swiss would take a stand against the US when they are a neutral entity. It's kinda like the 'if you don't vote, then you can't complain' argument.
Posted: Fri, 20th Sep 2002, 3:09am

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Hajiku_Flip

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Ah, the religion debate. My favorite subject. oink

I'll start with the very basic of arguments. X, do you believe in Evolution in any way? (I'll explain where I'm going with this after you answer)
Posted: Fri, 20th Sep 2002, 3:22am

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X

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That matters if you mean macro or micro. If you are going with the topic of evolution then no God, I would say what about when God said " A thousand days is like a day to God." If you want to talk about why there are a billion fossils and not one example of a species evolving with macro evolution sure. You want to talk about not one example of a half-ape anything sure. Lucy - was greated from a pigs tooth. If you would like to talk about how Hitler used evolution to say the Jew were inferior and could be killed ok. If you would like to discuss how evolutionary theory says a mongoloid is an example of a "lower race" and shows that Asains are less evolved ok. If you want to talk about Darwin being a racist and saying that any none white race was lower and inferior I will but I realy don't like too. I would rather talk about red, yellow, black or white they are all precious in His site. smile

I think micro evolution is true. I think things adapt. Do I think mutations and adaptations across species is true. No. Do I think a bird turned into a lizard... nope. Is there any proof to that...... nope.
Posted: Fri, 20th Sep 2002, 3:25am

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spotless

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Okay Raider. Sorry for my short fuse!

Good luck, mate. And come back safe. God bless.
Posted: Fri, 20th Sep 2002, 3:35am

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raider

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wink thanks! biggrin peace
Posted: Fri, 20th Sep 2002, 5:40am

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Phage

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hehehe sindwinder you have some good points but otheres not i know osama attacked you for your ideals and yes you are attacking iraq but because Gorge W wants tokeep the american polulus liking that is what is most important to himand you say your trying to fluff what i do not like… i do nto really care where you DEFEND YOURSELF VALIANTLY by bombing small small countries with your superior might and your hate for commies and your ignorant poplus who just want revenge for there loved ones that are killed they have no care for the rest of the worldi have a stunt pulled off by a canadian comidian askign Gorge W bush how he liked Prime mister POUTINE ( for those of you who do not knoe his name is really Cretien) and then he went into the huge speach about how great the canadian government with prime minster Poutine was… see he does not care neither does the populus he actually got the governor of arkensaw to "help save canadas nation iglu which is a duplicate of the white house carved out of ice in southern ontario and because of global warming it was melting ( our actual parliament build are very big and very different from the white house ) and a whole hour show with these sort of things on it i found sad very sad…
Posted: Fri, 20th Sep 2002, 5:42am

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Phage

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oh and i didn't mean religion killed most people but in the name of religion
Posted: Fri, 20th Sep 2002, 6:19am

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raider

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too bad we all can't see the big picture. sad
Posted: Fri, 20th Sep 2002, 8:48am

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moebius

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Wow, looks like my suggestion to drop the topic was unceremoniously picked up and thrown out the window biggrin As they say, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. So brace yourself, here are my thoughts:

The philosophical validation of religion ( aka 'apologetics', which is basically what X is doing smile ):

The philosophical debate over religion has been one of the mainstays of intellectual history. A lot of arguments have been proffered, e.g. the argument from design, the problem of evil..etc After pondering over these perplexing issues, I've come to the conclusion that religion cannot be justified in philosophical terms - it just doesn't work that way. Case in point: the problem of evil in the Judeo-Christian tradition.

If God is omniscient, omnipotent and morally perfect, then the problem of evil shouldn't exist. You might say: evil comes from humankind, as God gave us free will (the popular Free Will defence) but what about natural evils e.g. earthquakes, volcano eruptions, disease? This is the reason why the adage "God works in mysterious ways" is so popular within the sphere of Christianity - it also explains why Jesus abrasively told Peter that he thought like men did, not like God. Perhaps human beings were not meant to fathom the will of God. My point is: there is absolutely no point in arguing about religion in phiosophical terms, because unless God/s (in any religion) physically manifest themselves and reveal the "truth" to us, the "truth" will always be unrecoverable.

If that is the case, then what are we left with? We are left with the self-righteous egos of religious leaders who positively assert that they are right, imbuing their believers with hardline mentalities and using rhetoric that forcefully bifurcate the global population into "Us" versus "Them". This is very dangerous, as we are well aware. History is littered with conflicts resulting from these divisionary ideas e.g. The Crusades, The Middle East Crisis, Catholics vs Protestants in Ireland...etc The loss of life in the name of God(s) is unacceptable - it is not what religion is about.

My stance is: why can't we be friends? If no one can conclusively be proven right, then why can't we leave it at that, and just give each other the benefit of the doubt? i.e. everyone is right. Food for thought. biggrin
Posted: Fri, 20th Sep 2002, 9:04am

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raider

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true, Moebius. It's so easy to argue religion, easiest argument is that there is no God cuz 'I never seen Him'. What's weird to me is some people believe in ghosts or other inexplicable phenomenon, but not God. One can go bonkers thinking of such things, that's why faith is a virtue.
Posted: Fri, 20th Sep 2002, 11:51am

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Sollthar

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Sure, we will stay freinds anyway, won't we? smile
I have no problem with people having different opinions, I just love to discuss... smile


God is a creature with fairytale abilities. He stands for the "good" and satan stand for the "evil" just like in the best fairytales. And thats where you can see that god is a fantasy, because "good" and "evil" are not universally valid.
The best thing I ever heard was a mother of a friend of mine (she is really fanatic) who said "God created the flowers, because they are so beautiful. But satan did the wasps, they sting."
And with all the respect, but this reflects pretty well the pointless idea of having a universal good and evil.

Secondly, there are a lot of things that simply don't go together. For example gods knowledge of what will happen, and our free will. If I have a free will, I am to decide what to do next. And if I decide, noone can foresee this, not even me. If god can foresee what will happen, I have no free will because everything would be prearranged. Thats simple but cast-iron logic.

Another thing with the free will is, that my will doesn't seem to be that free. If I am completely free, thatn I can decide wheter I want to believe or not. But some parts of religions (even some christians) tell me, that I will be punished for not believing in god. So I ask myself, how can I have a free will and be punished by using it? I am not doing something evil, I just don't believe in god. If I get punished for that, god is unfair.

The clearest thing is gods almightiness. Almightiness means, that you can do EVERYTHING. And that reveals anything clearly as a fantasy product. Please take the time and ask yourself "Can god create a door he can't open?"
Think about this. And then answer it without god losing his almightiness. because if you say "no", god isn't almighty (almightiness would mean EVERYTHING), if you say "yes", god isn't almighty either because theres something he can't do now, open that door.
Answers like "he could but he doesn't want to" are invalid, cause they just avoid the answer.
And this question must be seen simbolical. Almightiness is a fantasy ant can't be real, because it contradicts the laws of logic.


The bible has good things in it. Some good values, but still it is a book of fantasy stories, surely with historical background, but that doesn't make them more real.
There are many things in the bible that are surely true, but there are even more things that are definately not... smile


@raider: You're right. That argument is stupid. But mine are better. And I don't believe in ghosts either... smile

@raider2: I am swiss, we have no president... And staying neutral is our main political course, pretty much the opposite of what the USA does... smile
Posted: Fri, 20th Sep 2002, 12:33pm

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X

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Moebius

“because unless God/s (in any religion) physically manifest themselves and reveal the "truth" to us, the "truth" will always be unrecoverable.”

You see I think He has.

“ The loss of life in the name of God(s) is unacceptable - it is not what religion is about. My stance is: why can't we be friends? If no one can conclusively be proven right, then why can't we leave it at that, and just give each other the benefit of the doubt? i.e. everyone is right. Food for thought. “

I totally agree with the first part. But I personally believe that if you don’t accept God you are all done. Now I would be a total jerk if I believe that and didn’t tell you. But I also believe that once I tell you the responsibility is off my shoulders and you can do what you want and I’m not going to bug you. I’ll pray for you. I will be your friend. But I can’t make you understand.

Solthar

"God created the flowers, because they are so beautiful. But satan did the wasps, they sting."
God created it all.

“For example gods knowledge of what will happen, and our free will. If I have a free will, I am to decide what to do next. And if I decide, noone can foresee this, not even me. If god can foresee what will happen, I have no free will because everything would be prearranged. Thats simple but cast-iron logic.”

Foreknowledge doesn’t invalidate free will. I saw a guy run into a car once. I knew he was going to do it by the look on his face. I didn't change his free will. I know I really didn't "know" but God can. I see it as God looking down at a time line. God can know what you are going to do and let you do it. I actually can’t see how that would invalidate it.

“I am not doing something evil, I just don't believe in god. If I get punished for that, god is unfair.”
I think of God sometimes as I would think of a King. If I went into a Kingdom and the King said this is my Kingdom and you must recognize me as King to come in (A totaly reasonable request). If I said “Nope! Step aside!” and the King had His knights throw me out, would that be unfair?

Can’t God do everything.
No. He can’t lie. He can’t go back on His word. He can’t make a rock heavier than He can lift. He can’t get lost. Etc… His almigtiness means anything that CAN be done He can do
Posted: Fri, 20th Sep 2002, 4:58pm

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Two Gunned Saint

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Well firstly, I'd like to lighten the tone by declaring "HAM SANDWICH". Secondly, I personally think there is a God. My snidey friend laughed at this saying "No there isn't it can't be proved by science." Precisely my point that's what God is, it is everything that cannot be proved by science. By saying it doesn't exist because it cannot be proved is snot. There are thing's like that cannot be proved by science and there you go that's evidence enough for me. As for the bible, I think that's just a book written to contain guidelines as to how to live. (If you look there are actually 2 creation stories, so it wasn't really meant to be taken literally) I have nothing against americans, it's just I dislike of there fear/hatred/whatever of communists and I think that if people are willing to sacrifice their lives to bring america down, then America needs to realise these guys are pissed off. It has to be something they've done in the past or are doing. Just my little point of view. I think the fact that people are willing to die for a religion could be considered a good thing, At least its something. Legion's of people die for government's, thus power, thus money. Money was made by human's it was invented, why is there so much stuff hitting the fan for it.
I am worried that if you had a count of the number of death's for money and the number of people who've died for something greater, then the money count would be higher. When was the last time a person died for honour, Love or anything? Exactly. That's worrying. In fact that's what my film's are about, which if you'll excuse me gentlemen I have to go and make.
Posted: Fri, 20th Sep 2002, 7:29pm

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moebius

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X wrote:

Moebius

“because unless God/s (in any religion) physically manifest themselves and reveal the "truth" to us, the "truth" will always be unrecoverable.”

You see I think He has.
How so, X?

X wrote:


“ The loss of life in the name of God(s) is unacceptable - it is not what religion is about. My stance is: why can't we be friends? If no one can conclusively be proven right, then why can't we leave it at that, and just give each other the benefit of the doubt? i.e. everyone is right. Food for thought. “

I totally agree with the first part. But I personally believe that if you don’t accept God you are all done. Now I would be a total jerk if I believe that and didn’t tell you. But I also believe that once I tell you the responsibility is off my shoulders and you can do what you want and I’m not going to bug you. I’ll pray for you. I will be your friend. But I can’t make you understand.
Out of curiosity, how much of that is your opinion, X? And how much of it is the viewpoint of your pastor or priest? This is precisely the sort of indoctrination that I fear. I'm a catholic, believe it or not, but how I wish all of us could keep an open mind. X, a God who sends non-believers to hell cannot possibly be a morally perfect God. S/he'd be an egotistical God. Imagine this scenario: "I'm giving you free will so that you will realise, on your own volition, that I am the best, and therefore you must worship me. If you fail to realise that, to hell with you, literally" biggrin

Not my idea of a good God.
Posted: Fri, 20th Sep 2002, 8:00pm

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X

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God showing up in person? Jesus.

As far as indoctrination.... so far I have gotten myself kicked out of 4 churches. Not on purpose. Not just to make a stand but for reasons like this.

1. Minster sleeping with married lady in congragation. Church just wants him to go someplace else. I get the door.
2. Minister swearing on the steps of the church and assorted other things. Asked to go.
3. Church says everyone has to pony up more $. I say where is that in the Bible. I get the boot.
4. Sunday school teacher put kid in front of room because he doesn't like his clothes. I get "sower of discontent" because I say soemthing.
5. Bring my daughter to church and they say she has to leave because kids inturupt the "Holy Spirt" I get the door.
6. Church leaders want me to join but not my Mom because the "don't cater to the elderly" See ya!

The list goes on and on. I just left my last church where I was the assistant minister. I honestly don't try to fight with people but I believe there are something that a church can and can't do. If a church starts demanding money and says they are doing what Jesus wants, I have a real problem with that and have to say something. With all of these problems I will keep looking for a church because there are some great ones out there.

I think the best thing that I can say about my knowledge of God is the same as the blind guy in the Bible. I don't get it all but where I was blind now I see. I had it realy bad 10 years ago. Most of my friends died from drugs, violence, suicide or went to prision. I was a mess. My life was a mess. I did grew up with a mother who was too cool raising 6 kids by herself. My dad died when I was 1 month old and my mom took care of us and her parents on a teachers salary. I was about as mad at God as you can get. Then about 5 or 6 years ago I just got cool with God. I just wasn't mad anymore. Then poof. Stopped smoking, drinking, drugs and got a real bad case of lets find the truth. I checked everything. The Bible says to do that to. I don't have any interest in what man thinks and I realy want to know what God thinks. I had a super hard to when I went to school to be a minister because I always asked questions and people don't seem to like that much. I try to keep an open mind but if something makes sense I still look into it.

I am probobly the only guy that went and found a jahova witness to have a Bible study with. I love reading different things and talking to people about God and try not to be narrow minded.

Anyway this was very long winded so I appologies. My spelling is very bad too! I have to run to go film. Talk to you later.

I just re-read the bottom of your post and have to say the oposite. If God does give people free will and people choose to be evil than He has a moral obligation to separate them. It is the same in our law. If you see an evil act being commited and you stand by and do nothing you are culpable.
Posted: Fri, 20th Sep 2002, 8:48pm

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moebius

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X wrote:

I just re-read the bottom of your post and have to say the oposite. If God does give people free will and people choose to be evil than He has a moral obligation to separate them. It is the same in our law. If you see an evil act being commited and you stand by and do nothing you are culpable.
But then it wouldn't be free will: free will includes the right to be evil biggrin
Posted: Fri, 20th Sep 2002, 8:56pm

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moebius

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And oh, Sollthar, all your arguments are rendered moot by the adage "God works in mysterious ways" lol Again, see my point? Arguing is futile biggrin
Posted: Fri, 20th Sep 2002, 9:53pm

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Sollthar

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Haha... Well, yes... That is a sentence you can always say and you never have to stand for what you say. Just hang a "god works in misterious ways" on any argument and voila, nothing to say... smile

But the most important thing is this. The fact the you can't something profe to be wrong, doesn't make it true.

I believe, that we are all controlled by Aliens. They are about 2 feet high, pink and sit on our shoulders sterring us by grabbing our ears. They are made of a material we can't see, can't touch and can't discover with anything science has come up with...
There is no chance to prove me wrong. We all know that what I tell is bull..., but you can't prove it by the way I tell it. But again, that doesn't make it true.

If you say god doesnt follow the rules of logic or science, the discussion is over. But if thats true, you cannot say ANYTHING about god. Everything you say is a logic conclusion (eg "god made us, so therefore he has to exist"). And if something doesn't follow the rules of logic, everything you might know or believe, EVERYTHING is just pure speculation. So god could be a rockstar with the face of an elefant just making fun of us as good as an old man with a long white beard sitting on cloud Number seven. He could be the most evil creature in the whole universe... If you say the rules of logic don't apply to god, all these things are possible and in no way you can say what is true, or even what is more likely. Than you can never be sure if the rules you live by - believing are gods rules - are turly gods intentions.
As soon as you start making conclusions about god (in whatever form - telling his past, his intentions, his doings, his laws; anything), you make him get inside the rules of logic. And inside those rules, he cannot stand as a real person. No matter if you see this or not... smile
Posted: Sat, 21st Sep 2002, 1:52am

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X

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Solthar,

But you do have some examples of how God does work. Like Israel. Take one example. If I had 1 example of an Alien even if it was vaugue, I would look into it.

I never said God doesn't follow science or logic. I do think you can't understand everything there is to know about God. That's actually scientific. My head can compute as fast a computer. Science. You yourself said there were parts of the Bible that are historicaly acurate.

I am tired so I may miss the point but Moebius you have free will to be evil you also have to get the consiquences of that. biggrin

I have a question for you Solthar. If you think that people are just here and live and die. Why don't you lie, cheat steal have tons of chics, rob banks, party etc? I am just curious. You must follow your own deffinition of good. Why? Are you afraid to get caught or do you not want to hurt someone. If it is that latter why?

Also, I might try to make a movie with this in it so I am trying to understand it. When you look around when you are alone.. how alone is that? Does that feel like wierd? I am honestly not trying to give you a free analisation I want to know for curiosity.
Posted: Sat, 21st Sep 2002, 2:41am

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Sollthar

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How do you see gods work in Israel?

Hmm.. Iff I tell a story about Batman in the second world war it would be historically acurate, but still Batman doesn't exist... smile


Why don't I lie and cheat...? Not because I am afraid that I will be punished after my death, definately not - because I simply do not believe one single bit that this would happen.
I am a very moral person (at least people keep telling me I am). I have a good sense for justice, I am not violent, I am always honest (wich made me many enemies, but still I try not to lie) and I live EXTREMELY clear to my morals and princips. Everyone who knows me knows one thing: My word is a law. smile
I do that out of actually very selfish motivation. I want to be able to look into the mirror. I do that for me and for the people I life with (for example my girlfriend who I love very very much). I owe that to those who love me. I feel responsible for trying to be a god person.
I don't need the fear of beeing punished to try to be who I am. Actually, the fact that I believe that all these efforts wount be rewarded or mean anything after my death encourage me even more.

Maybe I shouldn't say this... maybe you don't even want to hear this... but Im tired too, so I will tell you... and you asked for it indirectly. smile
I have been born with a very rare and strong form of Epilepsy. For many years I have been told by different doctors, that these attacks could and maybe will kill me. About a year ago, my heart stopped beating during an attack and I was very close to death. But the point is, I do not fear death. Im scared of dying, but not of death. Because I don't believe that there is anything after death - Even if it may would help me to believe that there is someone watching me, helping me or waiting for me. But i simply don't.

Thats why trying to be as good as possible has so much value to me. I believe it is not beeing rewarded, thats why it is even more valuable.
Posted: Sat, 21st Sep 2002, 2:45am

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av11d

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It all comes down to the human's search for meaning. Every human has the capacity to believe in the unseen, but not to see the unseen. Your dreams are founded upon your expierences, all inventions are based on what has been done, even your religion is based on what others have seen and what you have expierenced. It is in that, that defines the point that we are so inferior, only capable of our surroundings, our imagination not limitless, rather bounded by the capacity of our surroundings. I think we can only transform what we have seen and heard to certain extent. When you think of God, what do you think of? I guarantee it won't be anything but a transformation of what you have already seen.

I have never concluded my beliefs, or closed them. I feel that true heaven and blissness is to not conclude. Let the question answer itself, let the unknown answer the unknown. Does God exist? Don't decide, and then the answer is already correct. That is the best way I can think of explaining my theory. Let truth answer the question, because the question is more important than the answer. Sorry I can't explain it any better.

I doubt myself more than anything, at the age of 15 I have only expierenced part of the world. My theories will always change constantly to satisfy myself for the moment. I really want to write a book one day explaining all my ideas. I have a feeling i will.
Posted: Sat, 21st Sep 2002, 3:01am

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X

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About 4,000 years ago God said he would watch out for Israel. they are they only people ever displaced for more than 500 years that didn't just get absorbed into the country they went to. There is also alot of forfilled prophesy that is there. That's historical. Not fictional.

Sorry to hear about your condition.

I didn't mean I am good because I am afraid I meant why are you good and what is you definition of good? Why not be self serving? Why not cheat and steal.

I actually think that as a Christian I can do those things and still be forgiven. I don't do them because I love God and He said don't. I think that God's rules are like "Don't stick the fork in the light socket" they are for our own good.

I have no fear of death either. I have an oposite reason. I know where I go. I have had to look at a few people in the eye recently and have them say I don't want to die. One was my friend. She had 2 little kids. She had a rare disease where she couldn't drink almost anything. She looked at me and said that and it was tough.


I don't just get why you want to be good. Why not steal for your girlfriend. Why do people deserve justice. I realy don't understand how if you believe we just are why you don't "eat drink and be merry"

I am sorry that talk about God always seems to boil down to wrath and hell and stuff. It souldn't. God is way more about love and mercy and humility and stuff. I don't think for a second I'm good and that is why I can get into heaven. I don't think that there is something I have done to deserve it either. I do believe that God said "Believe and accept my Son" and you get in. That's the only requirement.

I do think trying to figure it out is like this. The Bible says the Jesus was in a house one day and a guy who was very sick was taken there by his friends. There were so many people in the house they couldn't get their friend to Jesus. So they climbed on the roof and ripped it open and lowered their friend down. It means to me that you need to look for the truth. You have to strive to get it. It also means you try to get your friends there. smile

Anyway.... I hope I in no way get anyone riled and sorry for rambling but I am very tired. Solthar, I mean this so nicely. I will pray about your epilepsy. A little shiver just went down my back when I just realized that might be why you are making your next movie! When you said the title I was worried that you might not handle something as seriously as epilepsy (my friend has a form of it from a head injury) as you should but I was wrong. Take care.
Posted: Sat, 21st Sep 2002, 3:20am

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av11d

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Why am I good, and do not cheat and steal if i don't have are religion to tell me not to?

To satisfy myself. A chemical is released into your brain when you help other people. You become proud, whether or not you have a religion or believe in God, you get that "feeling." Another reason, is that I know if I'm caught I will I may be punished physically, and my intial reaction to pain is to hate it. I'm not scared of death, or dying. I know I hold the power to seperate mind and body. I think every human is built with morals, and it is up to them to decide whether to follow them or not. There is no correct answer.
Posted: Sat, 21st Sep 2002, 3:41am

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Sollthar

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Av11ds answer is pretty good... There's hardly anything I could add to that... Selfish reasons, as I said. To feel good. To be able to look into the mirror... becausew of that hope that someone will reward it to you.

You have moral inside yourself. Every human beeing has a personal register for what he/she feels to be good or bad. That is completely subjetive.
For me for example, I have a strong aversion against drugs. I see any form of drugs as a form of selfdistruction, and selfdestructon as a form of violence. Other people don't.

Fact is, I don't need god for moral. I don't need god for anything. Maybe thats why I started not to believe in him. I have no use for him... smile


I think the discussion is very interesting! But right now I am just too tired, its 6 AM and Im still awake... smile
So, I will go to bed now and let my computer continue rendering...
Posted: Sat, 21st Sep 2002, 8:28am

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BDOG

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I am with Av11d also well said.

X what makes you think Christianity is correct and not buddism or one of the others? There are more than 1 billion paople on this planet that believe when you die you are reincarnated. You as a christian think they have it wrong I say all religions have it wrong.

Religion was and is a result of people hoping for explantaions to the unknown. People trying to grasp a reason of why they are here and what will happen to them. Science is rapidly making religion redundant. If only people understood that when you die you die and therefore you better make the damm best of your time on the planet I think the world would be a better place. Although science does not pretend to have all the answers nor nessasarily the correct ones it does continually try and correct its mistakes unlike religion. People right now are trying to prove Einsteins theories incorrect and science encourages this.

Did you ever see that movie where a tribe of natives are worshipping a coca cola bottle that fell out of a plane? Everyone laughs at how ridicolous it is yet to me worshipping in a church is no different at all. Depending on your branch of christianity did God really direct women not to be preists. Is God really that much into self applause that he wnats people to congregate weekly to praise him? I could go on and on but one last thing that really irks me is why me a total non believer a better human being than many many religious people? I dont shoot neighbours that have different beliefs and I sure as dont abuse little boys under my care.

My wife says let religous people be but that is what the majority of people say and I say religions are so dangerous its time people spoke up against them.

Anyway I am sorry this is rambling. I am not a writer by any means but I am opinionated! And this was the bdogs opinion.
Posted: Sat, 21st Sep 2002, 6:34pm

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moebius

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BDOG, your comments make a lot of sense. I, however, have to point out the fallacy in your equation of religion with "religious people". A religion, like any philosophy, can be perfect and yet have adherents who aren't. As we all know, human beings are imperfect creatures - in fact, it is increasingly recognised that humankind is pretty messed up.

Therefore, the interpretation of perfect rules by imperfect people would inevitably result in imperfect practices.

You could then counter by asking why God did not imbue human beings with the capacity to understand His will perfectly.

I would then proceed by saying that God works in mysterious ways.

In which case, you would throw your arms up in the air in exasperation and utter the most heinous cuss words known to Man lol Joking, of couse biggrin

My point again, being: while argumentation is fine and dandy, there can be no resolution to this conflict... only an enlightened open-mindedness and the ability to accept everyone for who they are and what they believe in will ensure world peace.

Last edited Sat, 21st Sep 2002, 8:46pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Sat, 21st Sep 2002, 8:35pm

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X

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Av11d,

I didn't think there was a coorect answer. I am just curious. I find it facinating what people who don't believe in God believe in. They have there own compass. I once spoke with a guy who liked to hurt people. His endorfins went off on that. I found that wacked but interesting. Some part of my brain doesn't get why, I am not making a judgement I am just trying to understand. Being afraid of getting punished doesn't do it for me personally. I think I would just try harder not to get caught.

BDOG,

Part of the reason I think Christianity is correct because it is the only one that says it is the only one. Buddist, muslim, Catholic, Jahovah Witness all of the others say there is some get out of jail free card. Christianity is has some firm stuff about that one point. On the kids that is the catholic church and is horrible but I wouldn't sum up all of Christianity by that. And I believe in Christianity you are suposed to search for the truth. Most of the stuff you said is a broad brushing the topic and very hard to reply too but I don't think that way.


I'm cool with that fact that I said my peace. Like I said before, I believe I have an obligation to tell people the truth. Once that is done so am I. There was this realy cool old guy I listen to on the radio. A caller called up and said "So what do you think I have to do to get into heaven." The old guy said "What I always say. Accept Jesus." The caller says "Well I won't do that but I thank you." The old guy said "I wouldn't now your accountable." that sounds a little heavy handed and I don't want it to but that's the truth.

I would still love to talk to anyone at anytime about this. If you have any questions you can pm or email me. No hard feeling to anyone I hope.

PS Bdog I think your wife is wrong too. I think you should speak out. How else are you going to learn the truth wink

P.P.S

I know people have very strong feeling about how they feel. I don't want to fight with anyone and I will say that everyones opinion (why not right) is important. I am off to edit!
Posted: Sat, 21st Sep 2002, 9:02pm

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av11d

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X wrote:

I find it facinating what people who don't believe in God believe in. They have there own compass.
I believe there is a God. However, I don't think God requires anyone to join a "religious group", or attend mass prayings. I think he created us, but doesn't control us. I don't think he requires us to do anything (be nice, believe in him, etc.). Rather, he is just the creator, not the controller, and that he wants us to believe in what we want to believe in.
Posted: Sat, 21st Sep 2002, 9:13pm

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moebius

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av11d wrote:

I have never concluded my beliefs, or closed them. I feel that true heaven and blissness is to not conclude. Let the question answer itself, let the unknown answer the unknown. Does God exist? Don't decide, and then the answer is already correct. That is the best way I can think of explaining my theory. Let truth answer the question, because the question is more important than the answer. Sorry I can't explain it any better.
I just read this post, and I must say you're extremely insightful for a 15 year old lad smile You might be interested to know that some of the ideas that you've expressed bear a certain resemblance to those of Taoism.

Anyway, +1 for being so darned insightful biggrin
Posted: Sat, 21st Sep 2002, 9:19pm

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moebius

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And you know what? I'm really proud of you guys. I fully expected this discussion to degenerate into a furious mud-slinging match. Instead, what I've read so far are reasoned, tactful arguments, grounded in humility. Most excellent biggrin
Posted: Sun, 22nd Sep 2002, 3:30am

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BDOG

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Yes too right. There is some very interesting people on this forum. It take a subject a little deeper than Starwars v StarTrek to discover it. Once again thanks to all for staying kind happy and may the Browndog bless you umm thats me OK Bless you! lol
Posted: Sun, 22nd Sep 2002, 4:20am

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av11d

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moebius: thanks.

I'm making a movie right now that basically discusses everything mentioned in this topic. It won't have my opionions or anyone else's in it. The main character will be wondering and questioning the subjects, but not answering them. That way the audience members can decide on subjects like these without outisde influence. I've never made a movie like this, but I think it will come out good. I already have some concept art done, and the storyline completed. It will be a short film (20 mins), that is really broken into three parts.

I, too, was happy with the result of this conversation. It proved to be interesting and stimulating, not anger-filled and rowdy. What shall we discuss next biggrin ?
Posted: Sun, 22nd Sep 2002, 8:04am

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moebius

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Girls lol
Posted: Mon, 23rd Sep 2002, 1:12am

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raider

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hmm- kinda weird. I have been writing up ideas on a movie also about a paramedic who doesn't believe because of what he sees daily then dies on a call but has to live on earth until he finds God guided by his partner who is really an angel. ya know John Stewart on the show 'Crossing Over' - he says that the dead or dying hear prayers as beautiful music. Until then I kinda wondered why I, as a paramedic, say a little prayer for the people I see who are dead or dying. I mean - do I pray for me to save them? Kinda pointless if it's their time. I guess just for safe passage. (passage is the title of the script) biggrin
Posted: Mon, 23rd Sep 2002, 1:14am

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raider

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also funny how this started as Americans then went to God.