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So what exactly can AAE and Lightwave do?

Which do you like better?

Total Votes : 0

Posted: Sun, 22nd Sep 2002, 6:25pm

Post 1 of 27

neo_man89

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I'm about to get Adobe After Effects and Lightwave, so I was just wandering what they can do. Anyone willing to inform me will get a few force points! biggrin
Posted: Sun, 22nd Sep 2002, 6:43pm

Post 2 of 27

Timescape

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After effects can add effects to your movie when you have finished with it in adobe premier , it can add text, visual effects and other stuff, im sure someone else on here will go into better detail

lightwave is a 3d rendering package, you put in a mesh (wireframe) of an object say like a plane, you can apply textures to it and render it to a 3d image or animation


i think sci fi stuff like babylon 5 was made using lightwave
Posted: Sun, 22nd Sep 2002, 7:21pm

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billy3d

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lightwave sucks
3dsmax rulz
make my advice dont fall in for the lightwave scam
maya or 3dsmax or blender nothing else
billy
Posted: Sun, 22nd Sep 2002, 8:52pm

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owen rixon

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Lightwave was used to make Jimmy Neutron..look at that to see the results.
Posted: Sun, 22nd Sep 2002, 9:29pm

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patrickmagic

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My next film called strangers, contains a lot of after effects: black - white effect, widescreen effect, glow effects, zooms, motion blurs, bluescreenwork ( hopefully not noticeble).....


I think its up in the cinema selection tomorrow....
cool

Last edited Mon, 23rd Sep 2002, 2:12pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Sun, 22nd Sep 2002, 9:37pm

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Sollthar

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When it comes to 3D, ill stick to Cinema4D... Very easy to use and gets more powerful with every release.

After Effects is a great effects tool... still I never used it... smile
Posted: Mon, 23rd Sep 2002, 12:01am

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Pointybeard

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Lightwave is definetly the way to go. cool biggrin cool It has a steep learning curve, mainly because of the amount of control you get. SOO MUCH STUFF!!. But its a top notch program and has HEAPS of support. Newtek are making a huge effort in that department. LW was used to do the aliens for MIB. Also they are currently using it for Spykids 2. Also as mentioned before Jimmy Neutron. Y dont you cruise on over to Lightwave Group and check out there forums. Also the gallery. Youll see how amazingly powerful it is. Will give you a good indication of what it can do. pssst..you can check out my thread. A wine glass scene i did. I am very proud of it here wink Also i would have alook at Lightwave 3D Hope this helps out.

As for AE...i havent used it much but it seems to be very widely used in the industry.

-Pointybeard
Posted: Mon, 23rd Sep 2002, 4:35am

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billy3d

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erm i think maya is used to do all the stuff in movies.
and are u all crazy! lightwave modules n stuff in pants
max rulz!
AE is a basically a compositing software for visualeffects, bluescreening
etc. Most of the films in teh alamdv cinema have used AE and MAX
rarely people use lightwave (cause it sucks!)
billy
Posted: Mon, 23rd Sep 2002, 4:46am

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billy3d

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Rating: +1

Overall which one gives the best solution?

I am a big fan of max products and also Maya,

But for now Max 4.0 gives the best value, just a few more conclusions that makes me choose Max 4.0 :
* First, there's only one program, not to switch between modeler to layout and viceversa in Max.
* The screen refreshes faster with Heidi Drivers with Max, LW open gl isn't as fast as Max one, and i.e. : if you are in Layout in LW and choose an animated background in color there will be more than a headache to change frames or a preview, Max shows it fast and accurate. If you want to do the same in LW you will have to choose black and gray preview and this is not much funny at all.
* Flex in Max 4.0 is a soft body dinamics that helps with secondary motions, this is very helpfull to animate characters.
* RAM PLAYER in Max 4.0 in a build in.
* Max'scripting language and fully configurable between panels and options. LW have also a script language but can't do what Max 3.0 scripts do, they can't alter the screen, or functions or create a button that performs several actions, etc...
* Animation is easier in Max. * LW is easier to use, but lack a lots of tools and the control that Max have over the scene is incredible. * Render quality in LW 8.0 looks promising. But Max 4.0 render is a reality now.
* There's one big advantage that i didn't mention yet, LW is available for most platforms, and Max only for the PC. If you are going to work with differents platforms the only solution available is LightWave 3d.
* Max interfase if fully configurable, you can choose where to put the toolbars and choose which control will be on every tab. No other package have this feature yet. Maya also have a great interface but is different the way Max shows it, also you can create buttons or just add the icons you want to perform actions or plugins! really cool, this feature was implemented at first with MEL with MAYA.

billy
Posted: Mon, 23rd Sep 2002, 12:58pm

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Bryan M Block

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Well having worked in prodction for more than three years,
I can tell you that Lightwave is used extensively as well as the other packages mentioned biggrin . It really depends on the animator and what tools they like to use. I had the good fortune to meet a guy that lives here in town (Columbus, Ohio USA) named Mark Sullivan. He is a matte painter for ILM!! yet he works out of his basement here in Columbus. What is he using for digital touch-ups (he still paints on glass and digitally transfers the images to the computer)
He uses Photoshop 4.0! But he understands his tools-which is really the most important thing.
I know most of you guys are young and want to see quick results, which is natural-But programs like After Effects are incrediblly powerful-especially with the production bundle- AE can do ANYTHING. ANYTHING if you know how to use it-getting onto complex masking and motion tracking with appropriate use of filters, effects, particle systems, etc... can be very complex work. That's one of the reasons that I liked ALAMDV- It really is quite simple, and most of the results are great (depending on the quality of the uploaded plug-in images)
If you think all the "pros" use one software package to complete their projects, you are mistaken. Guys I've worked with used Lightwave, Maya, Poser, and 3DS-They also used US Animation for 2D work!
Movie studios are cutting trailers on Final Cut Pro! We all want the magic program that makes it easy for us to achieve the effects we have in our heads, but sticking with a package and learning it's strengths and weaknesses can allow you to select the proper tool for the job-It's good to know a couple packages, but to specialize in one.

Peace,
Bryan
Posted: Mon, 23rd Sep 2002, 1:15pm

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Joshua Davies

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Lightwave doesn't really compare to Max. Max is a much better program in just about every respect and has a far greater user base.

Lightwave has been dying for quite some time now and is mainly supported by legacy users that go as far back as the Amiga days (I had it back then).

Both Maya and XSI are in a totally different league but if you are getting into semi-pro 3d then Max is the way to go - Lightwave isn't really in the race anymore, sadly it just isn't that good.

Get Max but don't expect either Max or Lightwave to generate film quality renders out of the box.

If you can, save your money and get the standard version of Maya - its much much much better.

I would pick Combustion over AE but it is lots of money. Combustion is much more powerful and less limiting and generally faster. Still, by next year they will both seem pretty slow so I would save my money....
Posted: Mon, 23rd Sep 2002, 4:07pm

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Bryan M Block

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Rating: +1

I'm not going to disagree with you guys about what is the "best" program-
I am not a 3D artist confused - But what I have seen and experienced is that Lightwave still enjoys a following here-and that many packages in the hands of a true pro/artist yield amazing results (I know some of you guys are in the UK and in Europe-I read your magazines (Computer Music, 3D world, etc...), and frankly, you guys always seem to be more on the "cutting edge" of design, etc.... THan us here in the US)
The thing that is so hard to keep up with is technology-
last years "top of the line professional results" suddenly "suck" as soon as the new software update/hardware price drop goes into effect.
As far as learning a package is concerned, It makes sense to go with the most advanced and promising package available- But I've yet to figure out how you guys can own 5 different 800.00 software packages while still being so young- unless most of your software is pirated sad .

Good Luck,
Bryan
Posted: Mon, 23rd Sep 2002, 4:10pm

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Joshua Davies

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I wish I was young but instead we have to buy software or get it on loan for demonstration/testing.
Posted: Mon, 23rd Sep 2002, 6:40pm

Post 14 of 27

anonymous

Rating: +3

*sigh* Some people just can't open their eyes for two seconds.. stuck in their little so-called reality.

If LW sucks so bad, how come it's used in so many feature films? How many feature films use MAX?

Now, let's address some of the misinformed information I've read here today:

"Lightwave has been dying for quite some time now and is mainly supported by legacy users that go as far back as the Amiga days (I had it back then)." - If that's the case, how come it's being use more and more as time goes by? If it were dying, wouldn't that generate a decline in user base throughout the industry? Yet we see it growing.. I don't see the "dying" here.

"The screen refreshes faster with Heidi Drivers with Max, LW open gl isn't as fast as Max one" - OpenGL has nothing to do with the program, and everything to do with the particular video card the computer has in it. The "driver" you mentioned would indicate a special piece of hardware to make the OpenGL refresh faster.

"Flex in Max 4.0 is a soft body dinamics that helps with secondary motions" - Motion Designer and the umpteen bone-controls do the same thing in LW.

"Max'scripting language and fully configurable between panels and options. LW have also a script language but can't do what Max 3.0 scripts do, they can't alter the screen, or functions or create a button that performs several actions, etc" - LW's LScript CAN do all of those things you said.

"Render quality in LW 8.0 looks promising. But Max 4.0 render is a reality now." - This one's confusing.. perhaps you should reiterate this to clear up why LW's renderer is considered to the best out-of-the-box renderer of ANY 3D app, period? That includes Softimage and Maya. MAX's scanline renderer is no match for LW's renderer, it never has been.

"Max interfase if fully configurable, you can choose where to put the toolbars and choose which control will be on every tab. No other package have this feature yet." - You don't read much, do you? LW has had a fully customizable interface for the last several versions.

Billy3D, you're a prime example of someone who is so dead-set in his ways that he can't see beyond his own little box. You're convinced that 3D Studio MAX is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and you're wrong. You just can't see it. You won't see it.

Back to the thread as it started, the combination of AE and LW. Very powerful combo. Between those two programs, you should be able to do anything you put your mind to.
Posted: Mon, 23rd Sep 2002, 7:05pm

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owen rixon

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Well said.
an jus look at the work Lightwave can do
http://www.lightwave3d.com/gallery/spgm.php?g=LightWave3D
Posted: Mon, 23rd Sep 2002, 8:54pm

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Craig

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Well said Jedi2016 - shame you're not reaping the rewards of the force points.

Also some very good points from Bryan M Block!

Going back to the thread - I use After Effects along with my 3D work (link) and although my 3D package is a fraction of the price (and features) of LW of Max, After Effects still gives me the results.

Looking at the industry, Max seems to be used primarily for Games where low poly count is needed where LW and C4D are all over the TV and C4D and Maya are in the Movies.

I'm looking at C4D very favourably as it's getting better and better with every release! but am torn as Maya have a learning version out to try (link).
I have missed out an application called Electric Image Universe - (link)something else I have my eye on as it's been used in a lot of TV and Movie effects.

I'm also going to throw in a link to a great site which is very After Effects and IE Universe orientated. It's called DVGarage (link) - It has great tutes and loads of information from proffesionals in the industry!
One think it's shown me is that there's never a magic buttom to create an effect - that's just the start! (unless you're using AlamDV which is designed to be your one stop effects package through the well created plug-ins.

Enjoy!

biggrin
Posted: Mon, 23rd Sep 2002, 9:32pm

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Joshua Davies

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Lightwave is not used for professional realistic 3D in movies anymore - yeah its been used in a few things on TV and dodgy 3D like in Spy Kids 2 but nothing compare to the results from Maya and XSI. It is being used less and less now because it used to be used for just about all 3D on TV - before Electric Image came to power in Terminator 2.

3DS Max is used a great deal in films for modelling and test rendering. If you look round the web you'll see that the vast majority of models are made for 3DS Max this is mainly due to the products huge popularity (much more used than Lightwave).

I know you can't just write off Lightwave but overall Max is a better product if you are aiming to get into the film or games industry and move on the higher end apps like Maya and XSI. It has the largest online community and a huge selection of professional upgrades.

Yeah Lightwave has some nice features and a better standard rendering engine than Max out-of-the-box but its not industry standard like it once was. Max has a much larger following now and is just as good value for money. My advice was to save for Maya which is better than Lightwave and Max at just about everything - and that is a fact...

Last edited Tue, 24th Sep 2002, 5:17pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Mon, 23rd Sep 2002, 11:26pm

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Pointybeard

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Hey guys. This have become quite the interesting topic. Lets keep it to informed arguments too, so it doesnt get axed smile

I just wanted to say, i think the models for Doom 3 have been done in Lightwave 7. wink

-Pointybeard
Posted: Tue, 24th Sep 2002, 4:39am

Post 19 of 27

anonymous

[quote="schwar"]Lightwave is not used for professional realistic 3D in movies anymore - yeah its been used in a few things on TV and dodgy 3D like in Spy Kids 2 but nothing compare to the results from Maya and XSI.

3DS Max is used a great deal in films for modelling and test rendering. If you look round the web you'll see that the vast majority of models are made for 3DS Max this is mainly due to the products huge popularity (much more used than Lightwave).

quote]


Really? You don't consider Star Wars episode 2 as a movie? You probably didn't know lightwave was used in that movie though as you obviously have a limited knowledge of 3d. You'd also maybe realize that Maya is hardly ever used in movies other than for animation, and even then most of "maya" that's being used is proprietary custom stuff that the general public will never see. Maya is the most over rated piece of 3d software on the market for that very reason. The "maya" that got the good reputation doesn't exist in a buyable format. As for XSI? Same thing, only used for animation in most cases.


The only reason you see the vast majority of models and resources on the web being for max is because max is the most pirated 3d app on the planet and probably 90% of the resources you find for max are from illegal copies. In fact i'd wager, and likely win, in that your copy falls into that category as no 3d professional i know would make comments like yourself as they are uneducated and outright generalizations that stem from obvious lack of zero knowledge.

Go check out lightwaves gallery sometime, then check out 3dsmax's and tell me which is better....Oh wait, discreet doesn't have a gallery worth checking out do they....I wonder why.....
Posted: Tue, 24th Sep 2002, 8:27am

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Joshua Davies

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Maya, XSI and Universe were used for the final images you see in both Episode 1 and 2 although I doubt they used the out-of-the-box renders in most cases. I know that Lightwave was used to create some tests but the final work was done mainly in those 3 programs.

Lightwave was used for some of the cut scenes added to the Star Wars trilogy when it was re-released, but that stuff was pretty bad by todays standards.

It all depends what you mean by "used in a film", I'm taking about what you see on the final film, the high quality stuff - when it comes to that neither Lightwave or Max are used much.

Yoda and other complicated characters in Ep2 were created and rendered in XSI (apart from Jango who was Maya) with most of the other work being created in Maya and backgrounds in Universe then composited in AE and Combustion.

You obviously love Lightwave and hate all other 3D applications. The fact that you think Lightwave was used over XSI, Universe and Maya in Ep2 is quite strange as ILM, SoftImage, Alias|Wavefront, Electric Image and Computer Arts seem to think differently.

Anyway, here is one of the example renders from Max5 - not too bad really but Lightwave does have a better renderer for still images.



I'm not saying Lightwave users should switch to Max - you wouldn't really get anything new or better and you would have to learn everything over again as it is totally different. I do think that people that are new to 3D and intend to move to a top level 3D application (Maya, XSI) at some point would be better off learning Max or even Cinema 4D over Lightwave - which is what most magazines suggest as well.

Cinema 4D is a great app and I used to enjoy using it.

Last edited Tue, 24th Sep 2002, 11:53pm; edited 4 times in total.

Posted: Tue, 24th Sep 2002, 8:52am

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otteypm

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I don't understand why people argue so much about about the name of the software they use, it is just as easy to create shite 3d in max, lightwave or maya. Each package is capable of creating realistic stuff, it depends on users skills rather than the package.

I have never used lightwave or Maya so I can't really compare them but any of these 3d packages is perfectly suitable for a beginner, because how many of us are going to be using lightwave in our upcoming $80million feature anyway.

Personally I would recommend Cinema 4d to people who have never used 3d before, it is the most accesible....
Posted: Tue, 24th Sep 2002, 10:36am

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Tim

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hey d00ds biggrin

Well, for all of the 3d gfx I put in for the movies I make, I use NewTek LightWave.
I like it because it was the first one I heard of, plus, it is the 3d program that Foundation Imaging uses to create all of the CG scenes in the later Star Trek series (ie Deep Space Nine, Voyager, Enterprise)

I was actually looking around a little while ago and I actually found this:

http://studio.adobe.com/explore/gallery/foundationimaging/page2.html

This is a scene from the Voyager 2 part episode "Workforce". When I first saw that epsiode, I thought that scene was done with a huge complex computing visual effects terminal computer that only companies could afford.

However, that scene was done with a green screen, LightWave, Elastic Reality, and After Effects. smile

Also, I have tried 3D Studio Max R3 and I think that program is good for creating Low-Poly meshes for games (ie Q3, CS, etc) but not for high-res meshes.

Heheh, ALSO, I tried C4D (At the recommendation of Sollthar wink ) and although I agree with him fully on how it is a great and easy program, I believe it's current render engine isn't very effiecient. sad If they could make that run faster, I'd probably use it more. wink

So until I can find an educational liscensed version of Maya I can get (crazy), I'm going to stick with LightWave since it is a pretty good program for the stuff shown on TV, etc.

I've seen some tutorials of what Maya can do in just under a few minutes and it looks awesome. biggrin

Well that's my 'tuppence-worth' wink

Tim
Posted: Tue, 24th Sep 2002, 5:34pm

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Joshua Davies

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Rating: +1

Otteypm - I'll have you know I've created some very good looking cubes & spheres in Maya - I think they are great biggrin
Posted: Tue, 24th Sep 2002, 5:55pm

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otteypm

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Rating: +1

Quick make a plugin out of them.

Everyone needs cubes and spheres in their films. biggrin
Posted: Wed, 25th Sep 2002, 4:52pm

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spotless

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otteypm wrote:

I don't understand why people argue so much about about the name of the software they use, it is just as easy to create shite 3d in max, lightwave or maya. Each package is capable of creating realistic stuff, it depends on users skills rather than the package.
Well said. +1! We would all do well to remember that. I catch myself dreaming about the latest version of Easy 5D Edit X Pro XS Production Bundle Sport Turbo but remind myself that its not the tool, but the person using it that creates good stuff. 98% of the time I only need FCP3 'coz I know it so well!
Posted: Wed, 25th Sep 2002, 7:22pm

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Joshua Davies

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But you don't get much better than Final Cut Pro 3 biggrin
Posted: Wed, 25th Sep 2002, 7:55pm

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TheLiggi

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When I was a child, I thought as a child, I spake as a child
now that I am a man, I have put away childish things.

nuff said about that, Adobe After effects if the premier post production and compositing software in the market today.
if you want to learn to get the full use of the program with great tutorials
go to creativecow.net There you will find a plethora of tutorials and how to to get you going. biggrin

as far as 3d studio max is concerned, it's main muscle lay in the developement of 3d p.c. gaming such as diablo and warcraft by far some of the best rpg games out there for the p.c. The best place hands down for tutorials on max is the 3d cafe www.3dcafe.com. Here also you will find a plethora of tutorials and how to's to aid you in your 3d work. razz

and for all the rest of you gents out there I have found a place that has excellent tutorials on special effects and compositing techniques
floridafx www.floridafx.com. check it out you wont be disappointed.
check out the tutorials section. And they are having a seminar on fx.
The kind where you can ask a how to question and they will show you right there on the spot. So save up your pennies or whatever currency your dealing in and try to get there. I will definitely will be there. cool