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Idea to stop the vote rigging

Posted: Wed, 9th Oct 2002, 7:37pm

Post 1 of 33

b4uask30male

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Just an idea, what do you think.

This has not just happened to me, but most other people that have their film/s in the top ten.
I have a list of 7 people that vote a low score for one film and a high score for another, and thats it. they don't post anything, in fact they seem to join the day the film that they give the high score to is uploaded.

I have PM 3 people just asking if they could comment as to what they thought of my film.
The messages are still in my outbox over 5 weeks later

this means it's either people that have made the film and logged on with a different name or friends of theirs.

How about before anyone is allowed to vote they have to have either or both Posted for a certain number of times, or been on alamdv for a certain amount of time.

this should stop people having more than one account on the day they upload a film.

( Please, no offence to those not in the top ten, i guess it would not happen to you as you would not be a threat. But i'm sure your future films will get in the top ten, and you would hate it someone gave your film a vote 2 compared with 16 votes of 5. )

anyway what do people think. ?
(please don't delete this message as it's happened to the film THE test. )
Posted: Wed, 9th Oct 2002, 7:42pm

Post 2 of 33

er-no

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A similar forum site has implemented rules like this to a great effect. They have rules that you cannot win the daily forum competition or post in certain forums if you are a newbie (a member who is under 21 days old and who has not posted 70 posts).

It really worked and cut down on the amount of cheating and spam.
Posted: Wed, 9th Oct 2002, 7:55pm

Post 3 of 33

owen rixon

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Could the friends of film makers still not just sign in and type in some pointless posts to get their post count up to vote on the videos....How about make it that the person needs to have a certain amount of force points (Maybe only 30), to vote on films?
Posted: Wed, 9th Oct 2002, 8:02pm

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Andreas

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im totally up for this, or why not just goldmembers that can vote.. or maybe not.. yeah i vote "yes" for this anyway..
Posted: Wed, 9th Oct 2002, 8:06pm

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ada1989

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Thats what i call gooooood idea. Owen.

Last edited Wed, 9th Oct 2002, 8:08pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Wed, 9th Oct 2002, 8:08pm

Post 6 of 33

X

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How about if they own ALAMDV they can vote? If someone wants to buy another copy of the film just so they can vote down a film I say all the more money to the crew. For those who don't own ALAMDV you can still watch the films but no payie no votie.
Posted: Wed, 9th Oct 2002, 8:12pm

Post 7 of 33

er-no

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Yeah, thats a good idea in theory.. however would it stop people joining the community. I might not have joined if I had to sign up to rate a film. I would have thought it a little rude... hmmm, maybe the force idea is a little better, or something similar...

smile
Posted: Wed, 9th Oct 2002, 8:39pm

Post 8 of 33

b4uask30male

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They are all excellent ideas, i'm going to give each one a +1 and i thank each of you for taking the time to answer.

Maybe they could be a mix of all of them.

I feel it's a problem that could get out of hand if it's not controlled, as the " people " that have voted for just 2 films ( a high score and a low score ) will then rear their heads the next time one of there films comes out.

I hope the crew at alamdv takes this ideas you have given and makes one final effort.

( I liked the gold member idea...it would seem rude, but they have all the other facilities to use, and they could comment still )
Posted: Wed, 9th Oct 2002, 9:17pm

Post 9 of 33

davlin

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I agree about the "Gold Member" vote only idea.

BTW "b4" I had no bother downloading "One Battle" .....when I woke up
it was there.....easy..... lol
Posted: Wed, 9th Oct 2002, 9:25pm

Post 10 of 33

er-no

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davlin wrote:

I agree about the "Gold Member" vote only idea.

BTW "b4" I had no bother downloading "One Battle" .....when I woke up
it was there.....easy..... lol
What time was that? Was it on the my er-no.com server?

I am just interested to see what time they check the server and take down mpg files...

smile
Posted: Wed, 9th Oct 2002, 9:34pm

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wpl

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I have not yet bought alam yet but I still like to rate the movies.
I like the post amount idea. I think 20 posts would be good.

I mean come on what am I going to do when I am bored if I can't watch and rate movies?
Posted: Wed, 9th Oct 2002, 9:34pm

Post 12 of 33

DarkJedi07

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Dang! Everyone gets a +1 except me because I was too lazy to answer before. Oh, and, yes, I am definetly up for this idea. I do not think the voting should be abused like it sometimes is. That is the same thing that heppened with the -1's way back when the new force system was starting. The -1 feature has been taken away now, so maybe because people have been using the voting system with different names, something like that could happen where you need to be a respected member in the community. Maybe you have done somthing good like what I did, telling other forums about AlamDV2. Or maybe you could just be helpful and help people when they have problems with AlamDV2. On the BrickFilms Forums there is a new thing. You are either a normal poster, or a respected poster. Respected posters are people who are respected in the community and do good things. I think that would be the way to go if we were to change something with the voting..

Now do I get something for saying this? Thanks in advance and bye! biggrin

Last edited Wed, 9th Oct 2002, 9:36pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Wed, 9th Oct 2002, 9:36pm

Post 13 of 33

TheLiggi

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Well, gents there ya have it. I believe that the powers that be have a decision to make. People put their films here because they are proud of their work and want some good constructive criticism and how they can approve upon their craft.

Though I also believe, that honor and integrity are also key elements that need to be in play here as well. B4uask30male has an excellent point. Those individuals who upload films and then have their friends vote for them [size=18](Seem to need to have their ego's stroked and don't seem to be all that secure in their film making abilities)[/size]
I am here because I believe that some of the best amatuer film makers around live here and if I am going to be critiqued then let it be by a group of my peers. And for those doing the vote rigging if indeed that is was going on. You have your reward your ego being stroked and you will never really know how good you are.

Fight the Power!
Posted: Wed, 9th Oct 2002, 9:36pm

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wpl

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you must think about the sad strange little men like me!
Posted: Wed, 9th Oct 2002, 9:38pm

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davlin

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er-no wrote:

davlin wrote:

I agree about the "Gold Member" vote only idea.

BTW "b4" I had no bother downloading "One Battle" .....when I woke up
it was there.....easy..... lol
What time was that? Was it on the my er-no.com server?

I am just interested to see what time they check the server and take down mpg files...

smile
Sorry I don't think I can help much on this......I linked up from the forum
last evening, late on ,using my download manager ....I then crashed out.
I've only got 56K so I tend to do this quite often.
Posted: Wed, 9th Oct 2002, 9:50pm

Post 16 of 33

davlin

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A thought on the voting problem......how about .....

1.Film makers only can vote with points.(non for themselves)

2.Non film makers can view and comment only.

This I think would level the playing field as only the film makers peers will
vote .I strongly believe that if you don't have a movie on the cinema list
you don't have the right to offend or rig the system.

ol'dav
Posted: Wed, 9th Oct 2002, 11:03pm

Post 17 of 33

sidewinder

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Don't exclude non-gold users!!!

some people like to be active in the communtiy, but don't have a need for thius program.

I prefer the idea that they can't vote until they have 80 posts AND 21 days under their belts.




Please listen to me!
Posted: Wed, 9th Oct 2002, 11:25pm

Post 18 of 33

er-no

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sidewinder wrote:

Don't exclude non-gold users!!!

Please listen to me!
I am listening and thats why I suggested it. biggrin

The problem that this other company had was very similar, people were just posting on the forums to win the daily prize and it got very very messy, the company made a £7.50 join up fee and without it you cannot win, it got rid of the 'one timers' and the regulars came through and make it one of the best forum sites on the net.

'Members of the AlamDV community can vote after they have made a contribution to the forums and been registered for a certain amount of time. No fee is required and we are encouraging you to get to know forum members and create a better atmosphere in the community'.

Thats what Alam could put up.. or something similar?!

This other company had a trial run of a month and it worked so well they kept the format and rules.

Just a suggestion. smile
Posted: Thu, 10th Oct 2002, 12:20am

Post 19 of 33

Venger

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I guess whatever you do your not going to please everybody. Worst part I think about voting for films is that people often don't leave a comment. I remember my film "Bounty Hunter" got reasonable votes, mostly 3's as i recall. But someone whos name escapes me for a moment, voted me a ZERO!. I mean, I know my film wasn't brilliant, but suerly it wasn't so bad it deserved a zero. Especialy as they left no comment at all.
Posted: Thu, 10th Oct 2002, 12:20am

Post 20 of 33

av11d

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All interesting ideas. Let me give you my run-down:

Gold Member Status Required - Interesting idea, but I think that it's detracting too much away from the people who don't own the program but like to watch the movies and vote on them (fairly). This would work if AlamDV had a 1,000,000 user base, but right now it doesn't, and I think we need all the people we can get here.

Having Certain Number of Posts/Force - Another good idea, but I do know people that come to this site just to watch movies and rate them. They don't even bother with the forum, they just enjoy watching other amateur filmmakers.

Having to comment on Movies for first 5 ratings - This is my idea that should solve both those problems. How about if anybody can rate movies, but for the first 5 movies you rate, you have to comment on them. This way it might get people into the habit of commenting, but it will also stop the people who just come once and give somebody a one and leave. What do you think?
Posted: Thu, 10th Oct 2002, 12:24am

Post 21 of 33

DarkJedi07

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1... NO

2... NO

3. YES!!!!!

Number 3 is the best. It sounds great.
Posted: Thu, 10th Oct 2002, 6:33am

Post 22 of 33

moebius

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But you might run into problems with people leaving either blank or farcical posts instead of genuine comments smile

I think the "number-of-posts-before-you-vote" idea is better. The posts will reflect on the character and intent of the user in question, and everyone will be able to tell if the dude/dudette is really interested in getting involved in the AlamDV community or not.

A person who is out to maliciously mess things up would probably not go through the trouble of, say, posting 20 times just so that s/he can give poor ratings smile
Posted: Thu, 10th Oct 2002, 7:58am

Post 23 of 33

b4uask30male

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venger, your 0 was by ( name and shame ) venus89
he voted on 3 films in total the other 2 films were the test 1 and the test 2
( the tests got high scores wink ) and of course this person has not been seen since.
I like the comment idea, but i have had people that have not watched my film just repeating what others have said, ( eg:
sound was muffled, lighting was bad. that's why i gave it a 2 )

With the goldmember thing it would stop friends logging on.
Posted: Thu, 10th Oct 2002, 9:07am

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malone

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The ranking system has always been a huge problem for us, even before movies could be voted on people weren't happy. The voting stuff was just for fun, but I know many people take it very seriously and it can be ruined by just a few people.

My hope was that one day there would be so many people voting on movies that one or two rigged votes wouldn't have any impact. But that doesn't seem to be the case yet. For that reason I am rather reluctant to reduce the number of people who can vote even further.

The other problem is overcomplicating things. Adding a lot of rules people need to understand before they can start using the site just puts them off entirely. Things like force ratings and having enough posts for an avatar already confuse quite a few people (although I should really work on a decent FAQ). I think you can get away with a single rule (eg, 10 posts before you can vote), but 2 rules is just too much (eg, 10 posts and 21 days old before you can post). Our aim is to get as many people interested as possible.

Having said that I am still interested in implementing something to sort this out. I don't really want to force people to post. I personally visit a lot of news sites where i just read the comments but never post, but I still like to use all the features and vote on the polls. The AlamDV site has a great many visitors that don't ever post.
A required force level might work fairly well, but would require that I design new ways of getting force beside posting.
Gold status cuts too many people out, I think it would drastically reduce the number of votes.
Length of time joined it also fairly good. Although someone could just create a load of accounts and wait a week or whatever the required time period would be. It would probably stop a couple of people but im not sure its worth the effort and complication to stop just them.

Id quite like to link everything to force. Id change it so you have to have so much force before you can have an avatar and so forth. That makes it pretty simple; everything is based on your force level. I could make a little chart showing what happens at given force levels, so its clear for new users.

But theres still the problem of other ways to get force besides posting. I'm still working on force for movies and plugins (yes, i know its taking a while, im pretty busy atm). I was also thinking of giving people force for the first 10 days they log in. So all they have to do is login on 10 separate days and they end up with +10 force (which we could make the required force level to vote). This would encourage people to return and discourage people from making cheating accounts.

There is no fool proof way of stopping people, no matter how tricky you make it some people will always cheat. The aim is too make it offputting for cheats as possible without inconveniencing the real users who want to use the site properly.
Posted: Thu, 10th Oct 2002, 12:01pm

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cerveaupro

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I agree, this is just a little fun system... don't do like Neopets (with time they were adding a lot of restrictions to everything because of abusing and it wasn't fun anymore)

Everyone should vote, everyone should download the program, everyone should be able to join free and have bought a liscence for gold status to download other plug-ins! Look, I have paid for AlamDV when I saw the explosions and lightsabers were useful and how cool was the forum. In fact everything is free but you can't save and export, but I was able to see if the current effects were useful in my movies...

Anyways, there's enough "only for members" restrictions now!
Posted: Thu, 10th Oct 2002, 12:39pm

Post 26 of 33

anonymous

You say that now.
But if you made a film and it got to the top ten and yours was voted badly by someone that didn't want you in the top ten, you would have agreed that something needs to be done
I will buy alamdv and upload a film soon, but would hate this to happen to me.
Posted: Thu, 10th Oct 2002, 1:10pm

Post 27 of 33

davlin

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Rating: +1

Another thought on this.....Things can stay exactly as they are but with
one proviso.....a judging group ,randomly selected from the film makers
on the site with possibly some kinda rotation,could then individually vote
on a movie and these points ONLY will decide the chart position of the movie.It would be interesting to see how the voting matches with the rest of the voting public.

Personally I think just to have your own movie on a forum like this is
reward enough......sigh!

I have never liked to see Home Movies in competitions, it always detracts
from the pure fun of creating something which is yours and yours alone.
It also brings out the worst in some people and that is a shame.

To conclude I think it's great to be able to watch other "hobbyist's" films and also to pass comment.......its the so called "Top 10" I disagree with.

I've posted all this before and that went down like lead balloon but I've
seen the same problems in "Cine Clubs" in the past . I would'nt like to see
this great "family" have any "hic-ups".
Posted: Thu, 10th Oct 2002, 5:50pm

Post 28 of 33

er-no

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Just read everyones ideas again and after thinking about it.. how about two sets of votes. One for every user, that is everyone just like now smile and then another set of stars for 'Alam Gold Members'

This would probably be quite hard to implement however I do feel it would help people like b4uask and prevent this thing in the future.

Two sets of five stars (voting system)

One vote that everyone can vote on.
A gold member set that owners can vote on.

You can keep the top ten as normal, but the 'gold voting' will be more treasured by the members.

Any thoughts?
Posted: Thu, 10th Oct 2002, 8:18pm

Post 29 of 33

b4uask30male

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Hi
I don't want to go on about this ( honest ) but.......

I mention this to show the people that have not had it done to them how it works.
namrekca, has voted 4 films in total 3 of which are mine, ( low scores which would be fine if a comment was passed ) the other is spellmaster which got a 5. (this was his first film to vote on since joing 2 months ago, and he voted for it on the day it was uploaded )
he has posted 3 times, one of them was before he voted for my stargate saying that he is not part of spellmasters film. then he voted on my stargate. it says he vote 1 hour ago, but the last time the film was watched was 6 hours ago ( no-one else's film just mine ) He is not a gold member and joined on the 26th aug. 02

Please don't take this the wrong way, I'm trying to show that a person that has been here for 2 months and not a goldmember can vote to knock someone down with any comments.
( Just had a thought if people don't like me, i would perfer they tell me than use the voting as a way of getting to me, people that now know me would know that i would vote fair on someones film even if they did not like me )
I'll leave this subject alone now. sorry
good night.
Posted: Thu, 10th Oct 2002, 8:48pm

Post 30 of 33

TheLiggi

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I think it's time to lay a dead dog to rest. I sincerly believe that those like b4uask30male and the rest, who put all they have into this art form, shouldn't really worry about any voting system. Yes, it is good to know that people enjoy our work, But who are we making films for anyway. I for one am making films purely for the self gratification and satisfaction of making films. The pleasure, satisfaction, and feeling of accomplishment that I recieve from completing a project is more than enough for me. and if people don't like my work, so be it. It's not for them its for me.

So with all that said, B4uask30male and all the rest of you, don't sweat it. Just be true to the craft.
Posted: Thu, 10th Oct 2002, 9:33pm

Post 31 of 33

spotless

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Please don't make voting restricted to Gold Mebers only.

As you can see I'm not one. As a freelance editor I simply can't afford to buy Alam2 yet; I have to make do with 1. But I enjoy being active on the forum and part of that is the cinema section - not just commenting but extending the comments to votes. I enjoy providing that kind of feedback; I like the idea of a filmmaker thinking "Well my last film was a three star film - this one should get four stars, I put the extra work in."

I agree that the scum who abuse the system undermine that, though. Malone's idea of regularity of logins is fantastic, that would sort it.
Posted: Thu, 10th Oct 2002, 10:13pm

Post 32 of 33

davlin

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Well said "TheLiggi" you put it much better than I did. You described perfectly what "home movies" are truly about.
Posted: Thu, 10th Oct 2002, 10:27pm

Post 33 of 33

er-no

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On a following note to Liggi, I honestly believe that the people who vote bad ratings on such good pieces of work as b4uask's are only jealous.

biggrin