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Widescreen Mode...

Posted: Thu, 10th Oct 2002, 11:57pm

Post 1 of 26

smier33

Force: 250 | Joined: 15th Jun 2002 | Posts: 88

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Hey,

My DV Camera has an option to film in 16x9 Wide Mode which I would like to take advantage of for my next project. The only problem is, after I have filmed a scene in the 16x9 mode, and then try to watch it on my TV (which is only a 4:3 aspect ratio model), the video gets stretched to fill the screen and looks dumb. I was wondering how I could render it or what needs to be done in order to be able to film in 16x9 mode, but then make it so that i see black bars on my tv instead of the video stretching to fill up the entire screen.

Thanks,
Sean
Posted: Fri, 11th Oct 2002, 2:28am

Post 2 of 26

Phage

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16:9 aspect ratio "modes" on cameras are useless if you want true
16:9 aspect ratio you have to get a prosumer cam with a anamorphic 16:9 lens which costs about 1,600 for the XL1 or you can do this in some programs but it still is pretty useless.
Posted: Fri, 11th Oct 2002, 2:30am

Post 3 of 26

smier33

Force: 250 | Joined: 15th Jun 2002 | Posts: 88

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Okay, well I just want to be able to use it and then see black bars at the top & bottom of the screen when I watch it...can I do that?

My camcorder model, if it helps, is the Sony DCR-TRV30.

Thanks,
Sean
Posted: Fri, 11th Oct 2002, 2:51am

Post 4 of 26

MeetTheBeatles

Force: 390 | Joined: 6th Mar 2002 | Posts: 114

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Smier33, what kind of editing equipment do you use? I work with Final Cut Pro™ 3 and I shoot all my big projects in 16:9. But this is why I ask. Yes, with any camera, if you shoot in 16:9 and just simply watch it on a TV, it's going to look stretched. But in Final Cut Pro™ 3 it still keeps it in 16:9 but when done editing, it will render it to fit on a 4:3 monitor.

You can shoot in 16:9 with your camera BUT you need to render it in post-production. Let me know what editor you use. Also, when in doubt, duck.

Cheers
Posted: Fri, 11th Oct 2002, 3:30am

Post 5 of 26

smier33

Force: 250 | Joined: 15th Jun 2002 | Posts: 88

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haha...well i use Vegas Video.

Sean
Posted: Fri, 11th Oct 2002, 3:32am

Post 6 of 26

smier33

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Okay but wait a sec...if i render it like that and then output to DV tape, won't I end up with the same problem? I will have to like output to something else...that right?

Sean
Posted: Fri, 11th Oct 2002, 3:41am

Post 7 of 26

Phage

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wait a second which way is it streched? sideways or up and down? if it is sideways no mtter what you do it will look distorted when you edit it, i suggest if you want 16:9 buy a anamorphic lens.
Posted: Fri, 11th Oct 2002, 4:08am

Post 8 of 26

anonymous

No, no, no. If you render the project, it will put the black bars on both top and bottom, kind-of-like just using a wide screen plug-in BUT unlike a wide screen plug-in that will just crop your picture, your full picture now just has the black bars. I hope that I was clear.

I'm sorry Smier33, I don't know Vegas Video at all. I don't know if it has the same feature as Final Cut Pro™ but if it dosn't I would just do what you suggested in your previous post.

But I do agree with Phage, that if you want TRUE 16:9, buy or rent a anamorphic lens.

Good luck, Cheers
Posted: Fri, 11th Oct 2002, 4:09am

Post 9 of 26

MeetTheBeatles

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Sorry, I was not loged in. That last post was MeetTheBeatles.
Posted: Fri, 11th Oct 2002, 11:05am

Post 10 of 26

anonymous

Phage wrote:

if you want true
16:9 aspect ratio you have to get a prosumer cam with a anamorphic 16:9 lens which costs about 1,600 for the XL1 or you can do this in some programs but it still is pretty useless.
The XL1 dosn't shoot 'true' 16:9.

True you could buy an anamorphic lens for it, but its not cheep.

The JVC DV700 is true 16:9 (it has 16:9 CCD's) but it's a LOT more money as its a pro camera.

Lorax
Posted: Fri, 11th Oct 2002, 1:07pm

Post 11 of 26

adamlightandmagic

Force: 580 | Joined: 3rd Nov 2001 | Posts: 611

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I'm actually going to answer your question and not get into a dumb debate!

Now, I use Vegas Video 3 and also shoot a lot of things in 16:9 widescreen mode with my camera. It looks stretched by making people, objects, etc. thinner. Yes?

In Vegas Video, once you've got a video track with your 16:9 footage, click a function called Track Motion. If you click that, you should be presented with a square representation of your screen. Next... check the presets and you'll find "16:9 Widescreen TV aspect ratio". Use that and then watch your footage.

Simple.

Adam.
Posted: Fri, 11th Oct 2002, 1:48pm

Post 12 of 26

Phage

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adam it is not that simple, if his camera distorts the imageside ways making them look fatter that method would not work, however yes if it does look thinner yes it would work.
Posted: Fri, 11th Oct 2002, 2:00pm

Post 13 of 26

Phage

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http://www.panasonic.com/PBDS/subcat/Products/cams_ccorders/f_aj-hdc27v.html now theres a real camcorder to bad it cost 63,000$ and that is what i was descibing lorax that you can buy a anamorphic lens for it you just copied what I said....
Posted: Fri, 11th Oct 2002, 2:40pm

Post 14 of 26

montego

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As others have pointed out, don't shoot it 16:9...you will lose a lot of resolution. Just shoot it normally and then do this in Vegas:

Import your footage into Vegas

Insert a new Video Track, then insert generated media:Sonic Foundry Solid Color, and change the vertical size from 480 to:

306 (for 2.35 "CinemaScope" aspect)
390 (for 1.85 "Academy" aspect)
404 (for 16:9 aspect)

Color doesn't matter. I use black. With this Video Track positioned as the top video layer, "parent" all the video layers to each other by clicking the little L-shaped arrows on the left side of each video track, then click the little matte box (circle in a square) that appears to the left of the top layer. Set the matte type to "Alpha", and voila, letterbox. Stretch the matte layer to encompass your entire file and you're done.

The great thing about this is that you can use the Vegas Pan and Crop features to frame your movie clips exactly how you want. Works great.
Posted: Fri, 11th Oct 2002, 4:37pm

Post 15 of 26

smier33

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But then when I film I will have to make sure that everything I want is in the center of the picture, otherwise it will get cut off of the top and bottom, right?
Posted: Fri, 11th Oct 2002, 11:16pm

Post 16 of 26

Two Gunned Saint

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I had no idea it was that complicated. I just shot my film in widescreen and when I watched it back, it wasn't stretched or anything. It just worked. Everything's so technical nowadays. I think that if your t.v. stretches the image, you should try it on a different t.v. Probably no help at all, but I just thought I'd chip in.
Posted: Sat, 12th Oct 2002, 9:23pm

Post 17 of 26

montego

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No, you won't have to center everything. Just shoot it a little wider than normal. Once you get the footage imported into Vegas, Right-click on each clip and then use the PAN/Crop feature....it's one of the best features of Vegas. You can zoom in and frame each scene just how you want. Shoot some test footage, or import some old 4:3 footage and play around with it. Really easy to do. Here's an example:

Original 4.3 frame:



When I set it up for 1:83 Widescreen, I decided i wanted the flag to appear much larger in the frame:

[/img]
Posted: Sun, 13th Oct 2002, 12:36am

Post 18 of 26

smier33

Force: 250 | Joined: 15th Jun 2002 | Posts: 88

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So you can change regular 4:3 video into widescreen ratio using Vegas w/o things looking weird?
Posted: Sun, 13th Oct 2002, 1:36am

Post 19 of 26

jarar1

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If you're worried about keeping the action centered, just mask your screen off when shooting. I put a couple of strips of black electrical tape on my camera's LCD, and it's easy to compose the shots.
Posted: Sun, 13th Oct 2002, 4:13am

Post 20 of 26

Mr_notfish

Force: 70 | Joined: 30th Aug 2002 | Posts: 50

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Wierd. Ive got some old sony, (cant remember which model) and if i shoot in 16:9 it looks fine on a TV. I can import it into iMovie or premiere, and it looks fine. I run into trouble if i try to do compositing with it, so i havent shot anything 16:9 yet.
Posted: Sun, 13th Oct 2002, 8:22am

Post 21 of 26

rob

Force: 1032 | Joined: 14th Feb 2002 | Posts: 66

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I'm shooting a movie in 16:9 on my Sony DV (again, not true 16:9, just the mode on my little miniDV) and in Premiere 6. I know exactly what you mean when you say it is stretched on your TV. All the answers lie on teh awesome webpage below.


The place is go is this webpage: http://www.geocities.com/wunder01au/widescreen.html

If you still have any questions, email me.

Rob
rob_hart@hotmail.com
Posted: Mon, 14th Oct 2002, 10:40am

Post 22 of 26

Rotting Bob

Force: 130 | Joined: 17th May 2001 | Posts: 77

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Most DV Cameras create 'Widescreeen ' footagae in two ways, 1 they do what your camera does and streeeaaach the footage or two they pre add the black bars. (On a recent shoot with The Great One we had two cameras of one type and one of the other). This however is not a problem if you are using an edit program which recognises 16:9 DV footage.

FCP for example lets you select animport format of (DL-PAL 4:3 or DV-PAL 16:9) simply select the 16:9 option and the program recognises the footage as widescreen in style and will add the black bars and minimise the streaching. The only thing with the type of camera that actually streached the footage is thatyou need to render it allbefore you'llsee it as a widescreen image.

The ALAMDV 2 trailer was shot on the type of camera that streaches the footage and the results are there for all to see.....
Posted: Sat, 19th Oct 2002, 2:37pm

Post 23 of 26

Sokar

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The Digieffects Cinelook / Cinemotion plugin for after effects has a letter box mode to transform any video to 16:9 look.
Posted: Sat, 19th Oct 2002, 9:50pm

Post 24 of 26

Kid

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Yeah this is a confusing subject. Basically whether you gain or lose resolution/quality depends on how your camera captures and records it to tape.

There are four ways but 3 are very similar.

1. The first and easiest to explain is that your camera captures a standard 4:3 picture and then adds black bars before it records to tape. In this mode if you play back on a 4:3 tv it'll be letterboxed. On a widescreen tv it'll be letter boxed top and bottom and at the sides.

The next 3 all record to tape in 'true anamorphic widescreen'. A 16:9 picture is squished into a 4:3 frame and when played back widescreen is stretched out again. When you watch them back on a 4:3 tv they'll seem squished. When you play them back on a widescreen tv they'll fill the screen.

2. The camera captures a standard 4:3 picture, chops of the top and bottom and then stretches it vertically to fill a 4:3 picture. This is the same res as method 1 but loses quality during the resize process.

3. The camera captures a 16:9 picture by using a widescreen sized ccd. Many of the consumer cameras that also take pictures and have megapixel ccds use this method. The picture is then squished down horizontally to fill a 4:3 screen to save to tape. This gives additional res than method 1 but loses very slight quality when it is digitally squished.

4. The camera captures a 4:3 picture and saves it straight to tape. How is this widescreen you ask? Well a lens optically distarts the a 16:9 image to a 4:3 ccd. This is the best method as it gives both increased res and no quality loss because its done optically. (Actually this depends on the quality of the lens) You can do this by buying an add on lens.

(4a). Of course for a great deal of money you can get tape or film formats which actually record in 16:9 res.

So basically method 2 is the worst, then 1, then 3 and finally method 4 is the best. Also a 5th method exists which is to shoot in 4:3 and add black bars (same as method 1) or resize later (same as method 2).

So why use widescreen at all if you're gonna play it back on a 4:3 tv? Method 1 is useful for framing reasons. Method 3 and 4 are still well worth using because they give added res throughout editing which means a better quality result even if you resize at the end.

When you're outputing for the web its a good idea to not have bars since they increase your filesize greatly. You can either chop them off or if you have anamorphic widescreen you can resize to a 16:9 ratio res.

Of course the method you use depends on which one your camera is capable of.
Posted: Sun, 20th Oct 2002, 1:12am

Post 25 of 26

adamlightandmagic

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What happens if you combine the 16:9 mode of your camera with a 16:9 lens?! What sort of a ratio is that? Would it near anything like Cinemascope (2.35:1)?

And can anyone actually test that and post a picture?

Adam.
Posted: Sat, 3rd May 2003, 1:34am

Post 26 of 26

adamlightandmagic

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Hmm... guess not.