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Using 3d models for plug-ins...

Posted: Sat, 12th Oct 2002, 4:19am

Post 1 of 9

sidewinder

Force: 4937 | Joined: 5th Aug 2001 | Posts: 2453

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I'm using some models from the sci-fi 3d site, and i noticed that it stated that none of the 3d models could be used for profit.

This got me thinking about the 3d plug-ins that we have on this site...

In order to use the plug-ins, you must buy the program, therefore, you are buying access to the plug-ins. Most of the 3d models in the plug-ins were intended for non-profit use. Even though the creator of the plug-in made no money, CSB digital is profiting.



Did anyone notice this? Might want to keep an eye on this one...
Posted: Sat, 12th Oct 2002, 7:30am

Post 2 of 9

b4uask30male

Force: 5619 | Joined: 22nd Feb 2002 | Posts: 3497

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renderosity

free, check the read me notes


they say most of the time
feel free to use anyway you want, but please credit me.
So i have brought poser, and i can't make a stuntman. ?
i'm not gaining from it. but if i was a big studio as used it for a film i sold, that would still be ok, because that's what it is made for.
Meaning even with downloading stuff from the net the program itself has such things a skeleton, ( see billy3D plugin ) this was part of the poser product, he must be allowed to use that anyway he wants.
I think this goes back to the 3d debate
I still think there is only so many fires and light sabres that can be made take away the 3D plugins and your left with fire and sabres and some sparking things, and you would get 1 new plugin every 2 to 3 weeks.

P.s

i am trying to learn how to make excellent fire and smoke plugins, and when i do i will upload loads, and people will say
" enough of the fire plugins can you make a 3D ..... ) "
can't win i guess cry

( in fact i have even emailed makers of meshes ( not all of them ) and told them that i have used them in alamdv ( i gave this website address) I've never heard anything back.

( sorry just thinking )
If you had to be a member of alamdv to watch the films on here, then all of the films on here would be breaking the law, they all have a 3D object ( not plugin ) but something they have downloaded and used.
I guess the same goes for music and sound fx taken off feature films,
Anyone used sound fx from saving private ryan, and that is copyright in whole or in part.
there are degrees, so i think we should let this subject slide.
Posted: Sat, 12th Oct 2002, 1:12pm

Post 3 of 9

KermZ

Force: 2693 | Joined: 16th Apr 2002 | Posts: 242

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Well ... I have been really really really busy but won't go into the ins and outs.

I think I agree with B4UAsk ... most of the time the author of a plugin simply states that you must credit them. Whenever I have used a 3D mesh that I have not created, I always look for the creator's name and where possible include it. Sometimes when I upload I include this in the additional details section just so the initial description is not too long.

I think if anyone was using AlamDV to make a professional movie they would have to ensure they have permission to use stuff, but most of us on here are making non-profit movies for fun.

If any of these movies were professional, then some would possibly be in strife just for concept alone before going near the plugins. There are a lot of Star Wars oriented movies made, because of the fact the AlamDV allows easy light sabre effects. BUT both the Star Wars concept and even the light sabre itself are ideas of George Lucas.

It's an interesting situation ....
Posted: Sat, 12th Oct 2002, 4:30pm

Post 4 of 9

sidewinder

Force: 4937 | Joined: 5th Aug 2001 | Posts: 2453

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If the author states that you just need to give them credit, then there's no problem.

But, taking SciFi 3d models, for example, they explicitly state that none of the models are to be used for profit. If I were to download all those models, put them on a cd, and then sell the cd on the internet as a resource of 3d models, I would be violating that agreement.

If a plug-in maker were to make a plug-in with a scifi 3d model, there is nothing wrong or illegal with it. No one is profiting (money wise, at least)...

But when csb-digital makes you buy the program, and in turn access to the plug-ins, it's like buying the cd full of models; they are making a profit off of them, and in a sense, selling them.

Because, you see, the plug-ins aren't open to the general public. You are subscribing to use them. neutral





So, once again, if all you need to do is give credit, then there's no problem, but if there is a plug-in when the author says that you can't use their model for profit or re-sale, do we have an issue.






Just playing the devil's advocate... twisted twisted twisted
Posted: Sat, 12th Oct 2002, 5:42pm

Post 5 of 9

b4uask30male

Force: 5619 | Joined: 22nd Feb 2002 | Posts: 3497

Windows User

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Sidewinder, your thoughts on taking copyright music and sound fx, even if it's for a home movie is still copyright theft.

( In one job of mine, many moons ago, i had to deal with F.A.C.T on a day to day basis working for the then called Rank Video Services in brentford, Now called Deluxe, ( if you want to know why they changed the name PM me, it's rude )

Anyway They would not even bother i they had a call saying that the sound fx from starwars was used in a home movie, or to that point would not bother if someone used the sound track in a film that made money.

the owner of that track could of course sue, but i think we are talking about a small programme that offers a still shot to home movie makers.
anyway to end this is will email the site you talk about and ask them to put a note up asking if this would cause concern that the meshes they make are being used for kids ( most are on here ) home movies.

if i get a reponse i will post it here.

ON ANOTHER POINT. you are all in trouble now.
I have spent a lot of time and money ( as i do cry ) to learn new things. and i'm uploading my first FIRE plugin, so the 3D ones will slow down, but NON 3D ones will become plentiful ( please don't moan if you get too many of those )
Posted: Sat, 12th Oct 2002, 7:38pm

Post 6 of 9

sidewinder

Force: 4937 | Joined: 5th Aug 2001 | Posts: 2453

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you kind of missed the point. I'm not talking about using stuff in home movies. thare's no problrm with that.



I'm talking about having to pay CSB-digital to download 3d models that were intended for non-profit use.
Posted: Sat, 12th Oct 2002, 8:29pm

Post 7 of 9

b4uask30male

Force: 5619 | Joined: 22nd Feb 2002 | Posts: 3497

Windows User

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Sorry,
i thought i had covered to 3D scfi issue and have sent an email, ( will keep you posted )

I was asking on your thoughts about copyright theft ?

below is the post i sent to the webmaster at Sci fi 3D

Hi
sorry to bother you, but I have made plugins using 3D meshes ( non yet from sci fi 3D, the plugins are a screen grab which becomes an overlay for homemovie makers to use, eg: a starwars ship migh have had 3 different angles then uploaded as the overlay, just for homevideo people to use.
But a person on the site i use said that any meshes we use from sci fi 3D would be illegal as the programme need to use plugins would have been brought by people, so thereby the programme makers are making money from these meshes, if I could have you answer to end this debate that would be great,
I must add the programme is sold first and was not made with 3D plugins in mind, but has had people like me pushing the programme into making it something better, and where possible we credit the makers of the meshes.
the web site that has the programme is
www.alamdv.com
this posted topic that i would to resolve is
http://www.csb-digital.com/alamdv/community/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4918&highlight=using
many thanks for you time and hope you have time to reply.
Posted: Sat, 12th Oct 2002, 9:51pm

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moebius

Force: 4436 | Joined: 24th Jun 2002 | Posts: 1727

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Sidewinder, the problem you pose is very intriguing. I'm going to add another perspective to keep the argument going.

I believe that there is an extremely fine line between 3D meshes and the still images (or other output media) that can result from said meshes. When the creator of a mesh states that it cannot be used in a commercial capacity, there is a strong presumption (almost an a priori assumption) that any image (or equivalent media) that results from the mesh is subject to the same terms and conditions of the mesh itself. This assumption exists because of the belief that 3D meshes, on their own, serve no apparent purpose. They are only a means to an end (i.e. some form of graphical output).

My argument, then, is that if we look beyond this assumption (by applying a veritable semantic 'sleight-of-hand'), we can argue that 3D meshes, and the graphical media that result from them, are two very distinct creatures. So the author's terms and conditions, in this scenario, will pertain necessarily to the 3D meshes, but not to the resultant output.

This is a very far-fetched scenario, but I just wanted to get it out in the hope that it will keep the argument alive biggrin
Posted: Sat, 12th Oct 2002, 10:15pm

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Joshua Davies

Force: 25400 | Joined: 21st Mar 2001 | Posts: 3029

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FXhome Team Member

You are not buying the plugins and we are not paying for them - they are free.

You are buying AlamDV2. The plugins are just stored on the server for AlamDV2 users to download. If we had 10000 plugins you would not pay anymore for AlamDV2 than if we had just 2 plugins. We are not making a profit from the plugins (we don't sell them alone or with the program) so there are no problems. When you buy a car with FREE insurance they don't give you the insurance if you buy the car or not. It is part of the offer - your free membership to the site and its resources.

I think we've had this conversation before. When you go to the purchase page does it say you are buying plugins? NO - you are buying AlamDV2.1.

We are not stealing them, AlamDV2 users send them in to us to add to the main online database.

We could not afford to let none AlamDV2 users download the plugins because it was costing us so much in bandwidth - about £600+ extra a month on server costs so we made them open to the only people that need AlamDV2 plugins - those who own the program.

We are not a free media library for anyone, we provide a free service to AlamDV2 users by hosting all the known plugins by us and other users.

If in making the plugin you are breaking a copyright then tell us and we'll take the plugin down. But if the 3D models are for none profit use then there is not a problem unless AlamDV2 users start selling there films in which case I hope the film maker would have checked with the plugin maker to ask if it was ok anyway.

Even then, once you render an image from a 3D model it would be very hard legally for a third party to say you don't own that image (unless the model depicted a trademark of some kind). Far worse than all of this is when fan films are called things like "Star Wars : Attack of the Sith", but even then George doesn't seem to care (unless you tried to release it in the cinema).