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Microsoft lose judge's ruling 24/12/02

Posted: Tue, 24th Dec 2002, 1:20pm

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er-no

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'Java must be included in Windows, as Sun pursue $1 billion antitrust case.
In the landmark case which ended yesterday, Sun Microsystems had argued that Microsoft were acting illegally by shipping an outdated version of their Java program with Windows. This meant that users couldn't rely on Java and as a result had to turn to Microsoft's .NET.

Java is designed to let programmers write software that would run independently on any particular operating system. Most people would have run into it on web sites with games or other similar applications.

This is just a small part of Sun's private antitrust case against Microsoft, which accuses them of deliberately engineering incompatabilities between Windows and competitor's programs and forcing other companies to distribute products that are incompatable with Java.

U.S. District Judge J. Frederick Motz ruled against the Seattle giants and ordered them to include the Java programming language with Windows. Judge Motz said, "the public interest in this case rests in assuring that free enterprise is genuinely free, untainted by the effects of antitrust violations.

"If Microsoft's system was to remain dominant is should be because of .NET's superior qualities, not because Microsoft leveraged its PC monopoly to create market conditions in which it is unfairly advantaged."

Sun brought this case because they said that if they waited for the main antitrust case to be settled, they would be too far behind to compete. Now, there's hope for the underdog yet. '


I found this and thought you guys would like to read it or hear about it if you haven't as its another piece of news showing that Microsoft really are a bunch of 'tards.

Damnit I hate them, they have slowed down the PC market enough, yet still they are doing it.

What do you think?
Posted: Tue, 24th Dec 2002, 2:32pm

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Ice_Man

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if this shows anybody to be a 'tard, it's the friggin' idiots who brought this case.

suppose I come out with an effects program comparable to alamdv, and I name it Ice_Man's Cool Software, or something. it would make poor business sense for me to market for CSB-Digital, now wouldn't it?

I run a Windows system, and *gasp*, I can run Java applications. Microsofts' .NET shit hasn't gestapo-ed my Java system into dysfunctionality. It's simply a matter of the user downloading Java Runtime software. If the user has never encountered an occasion where they needed to download and install Java, and have been happily using the .NET features, why on earth would Microsoft ship a competitors software that MIGHT not be needed.

"Sun Microsystems had argued that Microsoft were acting illegally by shipping an outdated version of their Java program with Windows. This meant that users couldn't rely on Java and as a result had to turn to Microsoft's .NET"
- now what in the world is that?! Sun should be thankful that Microsoft ships Java at all. Ford isn't forced to ship their cars with chevy floor mats.


one final thing :
how has microsoft slowed down the PC market? They were the first ones to implement the graphical user interface. If they hadn't done that, where would we be?

p.s. : just for my own personal curiosity, which operating system do you run?
Posted: Tue, 24th Dec 2002, 3:21pm

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Hajiku_Flip

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The company's stuck is $2.00. They will be wiped off the market soon. And Microsoft will win on appeal, that's just how things go. neutral
Posted: Tue, 24th Dec 2002, 3:30pm

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Ice_Man

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yup. Java has good software, but poor business sense.

And I bet ya the Judge in that case was paid off by Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak. Apple must be behind this!! : )
Posted: Tue, 24th Dec 2002, 3:47pm

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sidewinder

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Has anyone been getting crappy products from Microsoft? Have you been totally let down by Windows? If so, why don't you own a Mac?

Microsoft is not a monopoly. They don't controll the market. As soon as they try to unfairly use their power, and it harms the consumer in forms of prices, and product quality, another person will spring up, offering something beter, like Apple.


When a judge rules against Microsoft, they are hurting the consumer more than Microsoft. With the help of companies like Microsoft, computers have become affordable to you and me.
Posted: Tue, 24th Dec 2002, 3:51pm

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billy3d

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see apple SUX'z
Posted: Tue, 24th Dec 2002, 3:52pm

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Ice_Man

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Amen, brother!!
preach the good word to the masses, sidewinder!!!!!

finally someone who actually understands the situation! I was beginning to think I was the only one!
Posted: Tue, 24th Dec 2002, 4:05pm

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Joshua Davies

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Firstly, Microsoft is basically a monopoly. What they say goes apart from the small parts of the market they don't dominate. Take OpenGL and games for instance - in many cases Direct X is taking over on the PC making it very hard for small companies to convert applications to other platforms.

The same is true with windows media player - the mac version is not fully compatible with all the functions on the PC version and there is no Linux version. It also looks like Microsoft maybe dropping Office on the Mac (which is actually better than the PC version) which would again cause huge damage to Apple. Luckily Apple have an escape plan and we will see how that goes. Microsoft also have huge control over hardware and have direct influence over Intel and nVidia.

I'm not sure why you think Apple will gain for this - nothing as far as I can tell.

They said they would support Java (like Apple) and then twisted and changed it. If they actually include Sun's version of Java with Windows that would be fantastic, otherwise they should include no version at all...
Posted: Tue, 24th Dec 2002, 4:06pm

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er-no

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The fact was that Microsoft were a monopoly in the industry completely. Court cases like this are very good in that they give the audience a window to see that their is more than just a Microsoft operating sytem and Microsoft software about.

It was all due to the fact that their were no regulation laws against what Microsoft could do a few years ago so as the profit came in they brought out small companies and expanded themselve as a conglomerate both vertically and horizontally.

What operating system do I run?

OSX.2 and OS 9 and Windows 95.
Posted: Tue, 24th Dec 2002, 4:10pm

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er-no

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And its too true. Office on the Mac is supreme over Office on Windows. Microsoft have basically realised this and have decided not to release anything more.

Great example there with Media Player schwar. Quicktime is an Apple program however can you get full support for it on a Windows operated machine? Of course you can. Not the same story with Media Player. Although I hate it so no loss.
Posted: Tue, 24th Dec 2002, 4:11pm

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Joshua Davies

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Windows 95??
Posted: Tue, 24th Dec 2002, 4:14pm

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er-no

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schwar wrote:

Windows 95??
Yah, I prefer to use Windows 95 on my PC behind me than XP.

I have the choice, and I can use the PC which I am using now for XP. It just seems like a complete spin-off, and a CRAP one at that, of OSX.

Whats with all these CRAP upgrades every TWO days, can't they get the f'ing operating system working before they ship it.
Posted: Tue, 24th Dec 2002, 4:17pm

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sidewinder

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You know, it's funny how PC's are cheaper than Macs. Obviously Microsoft is using their monopoly power for profit, right?


I wonder why Macs are not doing so well? Maybe because of missed opportunities and business decisions?
Posted: Tue, 24th Dec 2002, 4:25pm

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er-no

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sidewinder wrote:

You know, it's funny how PC's are cheaper than Macs. Obviously Microsoft is using their monopoly power for profit, right?


I wonder why Macs are not doing so well? Maybe because of missed opportunities and business decisions?
Microsoft are a monopoly and its that very fact that means they can release software and bundled hardware at a cheaper price. They have the power and money to do so, this in turn drives the prices of rivals products higher. Also, with Macintosh systems you are paying for the quality that will last a few years for sure, not something that people keep screaming 'you can upgrade it though', and the fact is its outdated within a couple of weeks.

Macs are doing very well actually, ever since the original iMac was released they have had huge profit intakes, still noway near as large as Microsofts but its actually decent considering what they have survived during their rollarcoaster years and what they still produce. Which is bloody amazing software on a beautiful and smooth running OS.
Posted: Tue, 24th Dec 2002, 4:48pm

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Ice_Man

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ultimately that's what every company wants to do : become the industry standard, and that's what Microsoft has become


er-no :
the shear fact that Windows can have full Quicktime support doesn't imply that Microsoft is willing to make their software compatible with other stuff?

there ARE other media players out there, so it's not like media player has a strangle hold on computer media players. just because they ship windows with media player does NOT necessitate a monopoly. MacDonalds doesn't include Arby's curly fries with their happy meals!!!

MICROSOFT IS NOT A MONOPOLY!! Why do you people keep saying this?!? Just because they are a leader in the market does not make them a dictator of the market. Of course what they say goes, because they have the most widely used operating system for now. When Linux makes their product more ignorant-user friendly, then what they say will go. Will that make them a monopoly too?
Posted: Tue, 24th Dec 2002, 4:51pm

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scobbs

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There is but only one monopoly........The government.


A private business cannot be a monopoly, not in a free market anyways. The reason is simple......choice. Nobody can force me to by Microsoft products, its a choice I make. Nobody can force me to use Windows.....its a choice I make. Even if there is no other OS on the market, even if the only way you could run a computer is by using Windows........I still have a choice not to use it. The fact is, the reason that Microsoft is No 1 is because that is what the masses want.

Is there better products? yes

But due to the laws of supply and demand, not enough people have shown that they dislike Windows enough or Like another OS enough to drive the market in a different direction.

Court rulings like these scare me. All it is is the Federal Government deciding it has control over what is supposed to be Private business. And that my friends, is bad for all business.......big and small


Let's say they eventually bring down Microsoft. Then lets say Linux steps up as the next standard. Do you think that the government will still be on their side? No matter who is No 1 in anything. People will always be out there saying that they shouldn't be.

regards, -Shon
Posted: Tue, 24th Dec 2002, 4:53pm

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Ice_Man

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Er-no wrote:
"Microsoft are a monopoly and its that very fact that means they can release software and bundled hardware at a cheaper price."

you friggin' idiot, a monopoly allows the company to charge whatever the f*ck they want to, hence, HIGHER prices. If YOU had no competition to speak of, would you lower your prices? Of course not, because people MUST use your software, they have no other alternative, which means they can charge anything!

and as far as macs are concerned, they go out of date just as quickly as PCs do. That's just the pure fact of the market. Computers will go out of date quickly, whether Mac, or PC.





of course er-no hates microsoft, he's still got win95. maybe that's your whole problem right there, son
Posted: Tue, 24th Dec 2002, 4:56pm

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Ice_Man

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shon - you da man
Posted: Tue, 24th Dec 2002, 5:02pm

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supersmasher

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In a way Micro$oft is a monopoly. What is the web browser everyone is using right now to be on this message board? What word processor do yall use when you need to write a paper? What is the most used and POS operating system?? confused Making company's go under and disappear is monopolitic in nature, but Micro$oft isn't a complete monopoly, and they have made people more "technically" inclined by releasing upon them the worst crap OS ever thus making computers cheaper for most consumers to own one. So M$ is in a way a monopoly but not completely. wink

Super
Posted: Tue, 24th Dec 2002, 5:13pm

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Ice_Man

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listen to yourself, supersmasher!

microsoft is a monopoly but it isn't. . . okay that makes no sense.

true Internet Explorer is the most widely used, but not for lack of alternatives. Mozilla, Opera, Netscape Navigator. If you don't like I.E. then don't use it.

If you don't like Microsoft Word, then use Corel's Wordperfect.

Microsoft would be a monopoly when there are no alternatives because they were squashed out of competition. You have choices. make them. don't blame microsoft for making good products.

making companies go under is part of business. when it comes down to it everyone, even CSB-Digital, is in it for the money (honestly now, schwar and malone: would you do this for free?)

I still don't understand why everyone thinks windows is a p-o-s operating system. perhaps because you all have no f*cking idea how to use it? I've crashed countless macs in my video production classes. so you don't you all go getting high-and mighty Macintosh on me. I've had few problems with my Windows XP Pro system. Granted it's far from bugless, but it's also far from P.O.S.
Posted: Tue, 24th Dec 2002, 5:20pm

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supersmasher

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Senor Ice Man you could see that i was trying to appease to both sides, but then again you have to understand something everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I know how to use Windows I'm almost fluent, I build PC's in fact i have one sitting right next to me now but i really feel that Windows XP or OSX's retard step cousin pales in comparison to anything Apple makes. Think what you want cuz i don't give a @#$k. unsure

Super

Last edited Tue, 24th Dec 2002, 5:25pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Tue, 24th Dec 2002, 5:23pm

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Ice_Man

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easy, supersmasher, down boy!

Posted: Tue, 24th Dec 2002, 5:31pm

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supersmasher

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I ain't arguing. I don't really care what you think. Some little 15 year old punk across the world isn't going to make me change what I have thought for my entire life. That is ok though to each his own. wink I don't like PC's but in this industry it is a necessity. So I see where you are coming from I ain't mad at ya. unsure We're still cool. biggrin
Posted: Tue, 24th Dec 2002, 5:44pm

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er-no

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Ice_Man wrote:

Er-no wrote:
"Microsoft are a monopoly and its that very fact that means they can release software and bundled hardware at a cheaper price."

you friggin' idiot, a monopoly allows the company to charge whatever the f*ck they want to, hence, HIGHER prices.


of course er-no hates microsoft, he's still got win95. maybe that's your whole problem right there, son
You didn't read what I wrote. Microsoft are a monopoly in the market by the very definition of the word. Thats fact. Don't try and argue against it. Also, this #fact# that they are a monopoly allows them to release things at a lower price against rivals and take hits in profit in doing so. A great example of this is the XBox. Where Microsoft have lost 3-4billion on the console already but will continue to go on regardless with price drops etc... Its because they can do it and it will drive rival companies down as they cannot afford to take the loss.

I am no idiot. I studied this whole subject and then had an exam on it for many months last year. Yes Microsoft do have competition, a lot more than they used to. This court case is small but is still signifigant in the result. I suggest you try and get hold of a copy of the Spectator if you can as they normally have excellent articles on matters such as this one we are debating.

Oh, I have XP, its just something that seems to be what Microsoft promised 7 years ago. A stable operating system. I use it, its actually quite good. I don't hate Microsoft. I just know what I am talking about, I also prefer Mac's.
Posted: Tue, 24th Dec 2002, 5:55pm

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Ice_Man

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ya know, saying it doesn't make it so. a monopolistic company wouldn't take hits in profits, it would just be dumb


you can't compare consoles to operating systems. If you look at all major console releases, the companies releasing them take huge hits at first. not just microsoft. Sony, sega, nintendo. everyone. and of things to compare to, you chose the game consoles? Microsoft is a newbie to console gaming, there's no chance in hell that they could rack up a monopoly on that.


on a side note I apologize for calling you an idiot. a true idiot wouldn't even be arguing this topic. you are obviously well-educated.
Posted: Tue, 24th Dec 2002, 6:08pm

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er-no

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Just to set you straight there. Microsoft does lose money per piece of hardware sold. Sony does to an extent as well however the only company that doesn't is Nintendo, which per piece of hardware sold makes profit!

Just to let you know. smile
Posted: Tue, 24th Dec 2002, 6:11pm

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Ice_Man

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only because Nintendo has been around since dirt
Posted: Tue, 24th Dec 2002, 6:21pm

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Ice_Man

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but, according to their accounting department in Texas, for about 4 months after the big gamecube debut, they were taking a net loss on each unit sold. After that, the sales made up for the r & d that went into project Dolphin.

A member of my extended family in houston works for Nintendo. If I decided to deal stocks, I'd have insider info (he-he!)

the profit turn around time will always be significantly less for Nintendo, they have experience behind them. Since Sega went to making only games, Nintendo's long time rival stepped aside to usher them into eternal bliss
Posted: Tue, 24th Dec 2002, 6:40pm

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supersmasher

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you are right ice man Nintendo was sell GC's for a loss, but they totally made up for it by how easily they could mass produce their games. I think it cost a nickel a piece for the GC disk and burning plus the manuals and the cases, so a 49.99 dollar game is a 49.94 profit for Nintendo minus the expenses of making the game of course.
Posted: Tue, 24th Dec 2002, 6:43pm

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Ice_Man

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true, for the few games that Nintendo itself makes. GameCube games are made by more 3rd party manufacturers.
Posted: Tue, 24th Dec 2002, 6:51pm

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sidewinder

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Back up for a second...

You said Microsoft shows how it is a monopoly by taking a hit with each Xbox sold...

That's why I like Microsoft. They have lots of money, BUT COMPETITION IS STILL THERE. This means they ended up releasing better hardware at the same price that the PS2 was going for. This is good for people like you and I. Were getting all these products at a relatively low price while these companies try to keep each other down.

THAT IS THE VERY ANTI-DEFINITION OF A MONOPOLY.


By the way, Shon Cobbs has it figured out. you should listen to him.
Posted: Tue, 24th Dec 2002, 7:23pm

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moebius

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Microsoft may not be a monopoly, but the whole basis of antitrust legislation is to prevent such a scenario from ever occurring i.e. Microsoft becoming a monopoly. There is competition now, but if Microsoft continues to flex its financial muscles, very soon there will not be.

Although this may sound cheesy, the ultimate aim of antitrust legislation is social good. Competition, as proven in economic theory, is beneficial to the welfare of all. In the process of maintaining this constant, tenuous state of affairs, there will be losers, and there will be winners. Microsoft, by the very nature of their commanding global presence, is already a winner. Antitrust legislation assures that there will always be others battling for a piece of the pie, keeping Microsoft on their toes, extending the boundaries of technology.

Forcing Microsoft to host Java in the Windows OS does not make good business sense, but it makes social sense.
Posted: Tue, 24th Dec 2002, 7:29pm

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Ice_Man

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That may be, but I still can't get over the lunacy of it.

Sun is basically asking for free advertising. Include our software in your software bundle or we'll sue you for anti-trust violations.


moebius, I agree with you on the whole Microsoft needs competition thing, but I don't think our government should be forcing them to include competitors software because the competition can't stand on it's own. That's unfair, among other things!
It shouldn't be the government ensuring that there will always be competitors, they should be able to fend for themselves, or they deserve to go under
Posted: Tue, 24th Dec 2002, 7:58pm

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moebius

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Ice_Man, I see your point. But the picture that you are painting is an idealistic one at best. In reality, Microsoft has already established such a secure foothold in the market that virtually no one, save a deity wink or a government, can rein in its ever-growing powers.

Microsoft is the de facto leader in the OS market; and so many companies rely so greatly on Microsoft and their technologies that there are a lot of vested interests in the continued well-being of Microsoft. Competing with the giant is close to impossible because not only will the fledgling company have to battle Microsoft (a daunting task indeed, given its superb R&D staff) but Microsoft's huge following as well.

Sun is not asking for free advertising; it's just asking for an opportunity to compete on a level-playing field with Microsoft's technology without having to reinvent the wheel - a wheel that strongly resists reinvention, I might add.

P/s: Any big wigs from Sun reading this? Wanna hire me? lol
Posted: Tue, 24th Dec 2002, 9:39pm

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sidewinder

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Actually, there is one thing stronger than the government: The average consumer. We are the ones who do, and should, be the ones deciding who gets the upper hand. Not a judge.

Moebius, your view of a government that regulates something for the good of all is even more idealistic than Ice Man's view. wink
Posted: Tue, 24th Dec 2002, 10:15pm

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Ice_Man

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you know what I don't understand, .NET doesn't even have the same capabilities as Java, anyway. I don't see how .NET could usher it out if Microsoft wanted it to. . . whenever a Java applet popped up before I installed Java runtime, .NET couldn't run it. . . it was an empty box till I installed Java. I still don't think that Sun sueing Microsoft was right. It may be annoying to the consumer to have to download this software, but it's not worth a law suit


and, Moe - why is it that we have de facto leaders in so many other fields, but the gov't doesn't do anything to stop them, or give their competition a better chance. . . the first one that comes to mind is Disney Animation. You know if you're a disney animator, and you want to quit Disney for whatever reason, the contract they have you sign prohibits you from working anywhere in the animation field for next 10 years? Disney's afraid their trade-secrets will be revealed.


Sidewinder - I couldn't agree more. The gov't needs to step out of the way and let the market takes it's course
Posted: Wed, 25th Dec 2002, 4:11pm

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moebius

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sidewinder wrote:

Actually, there is one thing stronger than the government: The average consumer. We are the ones who do, and should, be the ones deciding who gets the upper hand. Not a judge.

Moebius, your view of a government that regulates something for the good of all is even more idealistic than Ice Man's view. wink
I agree wholeheartedly that the consumer should be the final arbiter. But how can we decide on who gets the upper hand, when there is nothing to be decided on? (i.e. when all competition is quelled, which is the case here?)

I disagree that my view is idealistic. My view is perfectly realistic. How often do you see consumers rallying together as a collective entity to fight for certain things? This lack of coordination means that consumers, who theoretically wield loads of power, do not actually have the means to make their collective power count. That's where the government steps in to regulate on behalf of the consumers. Note that I am not saying that the government always has the people's interests at heart: we all know that that is frequently far from the truth. What I am saying is that governments possess enough power to at least pass legislation that may potentially benefit (or harm) the people.

Sorry, dunno if I made sense biggrin Pretty sleepy at the moment! lol

Appreciate the debate, dudes - this is fun stuff! cool
Posted: Wed, 25th Dec 2002, 4:22pm

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moebius

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Ice_Man wrote:

and, Moe - why is it that we have de facto leaders in so many other fields, but the gov't doesn't do anything to stop them, or give their competition a better chance. . . the first one that comes to mind is Disney Animation. You know if you're a disney animator, and you want to quit Disney for whatever reason, the contract they have you sign prohibits you from working anywhere in the animation field for next 10 years? Disney's afraid their trade-secrets will be revealed.
Hmm, interesting biggrin All I could think of is that such a move, while unscrupulous, does not directly proscribe the emergence of a new technology. It impedes progress, no doubt about it, but it does not supress an already existing - and potentially superior - technology. I don't know enough about antitrust laws to comment further. I think this is probably a problem that has to be addressed by labour legislators first smile
Posted: Wed, 25th Dec 2002, 4:28pm

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sidewinder

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I think we need to clarify one thing:

There still is competition to Microsoft.
Posted: Wed, 25th Dec 2002, 4:35pm

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moebius

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Heheh I was extrapolating a hypothetical scenario that would exist should Microsoft be given free reign.

To be more specific, as it relates to this case: If Microsoft won the suit, that would mean Sun's JAVA would go bust. That would also mean that consumers would have one less choice. Therefore, in relation to this specific technology, where only two key alternatives exist (.NET or Java), the removal of Java would result in the removal of competition.
Posted: Sun, 29th Dec 2002, 12:39am

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er-no

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I hate Microsoft for their immoral use of cororate weight. In the early days they screwed everyone else - working with IBM on OS/2 and then leaving and copying many of Apple's applications.

That's not to say they are alone in this. Apple got the whole Graphical User Interface idea from Xerox (Mr. Jobs, head of Apple, demanded that his development team be allowed to go arround the Xerox village after he had witnessed the technology there. He then stole it all).

So, finally, MS come out on top with domination in the OS market. However, they take this a step further by forcing you to use their products. They spend millions developing Internet Explorer and then give it away with Windows, thus destroying Netscape. They make it harder for people to use non-MS products like Java.

However, what really takes the biscuit is their closed standards. Whilst the rest of the industry is aiming towards providing openly available standards, MS are making it harder for developers to follow these standards, making their own uniquely MS-orientated products like .NET and C#

Of course, they're entitled to make these products, it's just that they shouldn't be allowed to use their stronghold in the OS market to make people take up these products and standards. Their products should be forced to compete solely on their own quality (of course, this includes marketing and salesmanship!)
Posted: Sun, 29th Dec 2002, 1:14am

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Kid

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Well for a start a lot of the practices are standard business practice, not MS doing something particularly evil. You would hardly want to spend ages developing a fancy new Gizmo(TM) and have one of your employees join your competitor and tell them how its made would you?

Java isnt going to go bust based on the result and I am pretty sure its about MS including their own fiddled about with version of Java rather than just forcing MS to include sun java. That would be daft, anyone could release a plugin and try to force them to include it.

Also C# is no more proprietary than Java. The compiler is free and there are already 3rd party IDE's for it. MS have pushed serious development for it to be brought across for OSX and FreeBSD and the likes which means they are relying less on using their OS as leverage. Also one point people seem to have missed is that C# is arguably a lot better than Java.

OK so MS do act to make a profit rather than making the perfect apps but a lot of the time this does overlap. IE forced out Netscape mainly because MS had the resources to implement the standard properly. Netscape still barely renders CSS properly even now! Open standards are fine but nothing motivates people as much as money. We have a lot of unfinished open source products out there as well as quite a lot of usuable ones but money does make the world go round and without people making money advancement would drop off.

MS may stop smaller companies from bringing better apps to us but we can rest assured that like the borg they will assimilate them into their own apps. Yes we do get bloat but we also get fully featured apps.

One of the problems with the Mac is that you just press a button and it does it. You have less control over how it does it. Its funny how thats one of the same reasons unix people give about not liking Windows. smile

MS, however bad we may think they are, are a driving force in the market, they bring people into computing, they drive the opensource people, (maybe even the Mac people to a certain extent) and are a neccesary evil in computing.
Posted: Sun, 29th Dec 2002, 1:41am

Post 43 of 51

MechaForce

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Very good point . . .+2


But just a stupid, semi-related question -

Why the F@#$ do all these fools who make plugins for most internet-based programs choose Netscape for their supported browser for their Mac versions, instead of Explorer? It's just so stupid because they have PC versions of IE included, but not the Mac one!! No one even USES Netscape! It's just SO STUPID! AHHHHH!!!! Is it easier or something? ARGH!!! evil
Posted: Sun, 29th Dec 2002, 5:09am

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Ice_Man

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in response to er-no's latest post:

the only people Microsoft makes it harder to use other applications for are lazy people. there's nothing in windows that makes it impossible, or even slightly more difficult to download netscape to use over i.e. the only reason people use i.e. is because it works, and there's really no ABSOLUTE need to download anything else as far as most people are concerned. (personally I prefer to use Opera, but that's another story). Those that need to use something un-microsoft know enough to download it. no harm, no foul.

I still don't know what Java features .NET has started taking over. . .perhaps someone could explain this to me

and at the end you wrote :
"Of course, they're entitled to make these products, it's just that they shouldn't be allowed to use their stronghold in the OS market to make people take up these products and standards. Their products should be forced to compete solely on their own quality (of course, this includes marketing and salesmanship!)"
-------
they force no one to use their products and standards. WE choose to. you don't like it, get something else. . .there are alternatives. Microsoft G-Men are not going to show up at your door for using netscape or java.

and by the way, who should develop standards? who has that right?
standards are beneficial. they make things easier on everyone. wouldn't it be nice if car parts were standardized? just think! you could fix your $300 Jaguar part with a $20 Geo Metro part, if car parts were standardized! instead we have ford parts that won't work in chevys that have parts that would never work in a Dodge that has parts that couldn't be crammed into anything GM. . . and that's just the American companies!
Posted: Sun, 5th Jan 2003, 9:50am

Post 45 of 51

curran

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Microsoft are the EVIL EMPIRE tard

Have to say though they have kept me in a job so far smile

er-no wrote:

'Java must be included in Windows, as Sun pursue $1 billion antitrust case.
In the landmark case which ended yesterday, Sun Microsystems had argued that Microsoft were acting illegally by shipping an outdated version of their Java program with Windows. This meant that users couldn't rely on Java and as a result had to turn to Microsoft's .NET.

Java is designed to let programmers write software that would run independently on any particular operating system. Most people would have run into it on web sites with games or other similar applications.

This is just a small part of Sun's private antitrust case against Microsoft, which accuses them of deliberately engineering incompatabilities between Windows and competitor's programs and forcing other companies to distribute products that are incompatable with Java.

U.S. District Judge J. Frederick Motz ruled against the Seattle giants and ordered them to include the Java programming language with Windows. Judge Motz said, "the public interest in this case rests in assuring that free enterprise is genuinely free, untainted by the effects of antitrust violations.

"If Microsoft's system was to remain dominant is should be because of .NET's superior qualities, not because Microsoft leveraged its PC monopoly to create market conditions in which it is unfairly advantaged."

Sun brought this case because they said that if they waited for the main antitrust case to be settled, they would be too far behind to compete. Now, there's hope for the underdog yet. '


I found this and thought you guys would like to read it or hear about it if you haven't as its another piece of news showing that Microsoft really are a bunch of 'tards.

Damnit I hate them, they have slowed down the PC market enough, yet still they are doing it.

What do you think?
Posted: Sun, 5th Jan 2003, 5:00pm

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Kid

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Well they haven't slowed down any market at all, anyone who thinks that is daft. And secondly why should they include a competitor's product at all? Ok so its a bit bad not keeping up to date but Java is hardly the amazing multipurpose language that some people try and make out that it is. Java will fail because of its own drawbacks.
Posted: Sun, 5th Jan 2003, 6:20pm

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Ice_Man

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welcome back to the thread, Kid!

Last edited Mon, 6th Jan 2003, 9:26pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Mon, 6th Jan 2003, 9:19pm

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Kid

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Pay attention 007! I was already in the thread earlier. razz
Posted: Mon, 6th Jan 2003, 9:26pm

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Ice_Man

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I know. I would have given you some +1 ratings for some of your posts on this topic, if I had any rating tokens
I just thought it was kind of odd that you re-stated what had already been said here multiple times.

maybe temporary amnesia siezed you, and you forgot that you had been watching this thread, and then read it again, and decided to throw some sage advice in the mix, but then your temporary amnesia relinquished its hold on you and you remembered that you had already posted here, and then the amnesia caught you again, and made you forget that I'm Ice_Man, so instead you called me 007, because you forgot who I really am.
Posted: Mon, 6th Jan 2003, 9:44pm

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Kid

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"Pay attention 007" is a great quote cos not only is it a quote but also implies you're no intelligence man. razz

I was just reitterating my points based on that latest post which clarified what the ruling was about.
Posted: Mon, 6th Jan 2003, 10:52pm

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Ice_Man

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AMNESIA! AMNESIA!