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UK replica guns laws changing

Posted: Wed, 8th Jan 2003, 6:16pm

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Simon K Jones

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Rating: +2

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2640221.stm

That link might interest those of you making films that feature mock-up guns.
Posted: Wed, 8th Jan 2003, 6:25pm

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b4uask30male

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excellent tarn +1

very usefull, i will be contacting the police and getting a piece of paper from them saying that i have spoken to them. ( i would hate to be stopped while filming. _
Posted: Wed, 8th Jan 2003, 8:08pm

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Kram1563

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Thanks tarn,i am maybe about to puchase a few replica guns, so this is very useful info ta very much

Mark
Posted: Wed, 8th Jan 2003, 8:17pm

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sidewinder

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Rating: +1

I live in America, where we don't have to worry a whole bunch about this stuff. Oh yeah! cool
Posted: Wed, 8th Jan 2003, 8:20pm

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av11d

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Three Cheers for America, where you don't get annoying accents, stupid laws, or really bad tv shows. ok, you do, but less than England.
Posted: Wed, 8th Jan 2003, 8:44pm

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MechaForce

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Yeah I saw this one british Tv show once and I was the stupidest thing I'd ever seen.

There was this scene where some old lady hands an old man a pair of hedge trimmers and says "Here's a new hobby for you!" and then they added canned laughter. WTF?? Does Anyone get it?!?!?

Hmm when they mention "Air Weapons" they are meaning BB rifles which fire metal pellets - not airsoft . . . crazy gun laws. . . I think you all are going overboard with these laws over there .. . . I guess they'll be banning squirt guns next . . .

No seriously. They will. That or cap guns. Then squirt guns.
Posted: Wed, 8th Jan 2003, 8:46pm

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Monkey Man

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Yeah, they don't have to worry about getting arrested by police for carrying replica weapons when making a film, but they do have to worry about getting shot dead when walking down the street to by some groceries. i'd much rather have tighter gun laws and have to worry about replicas when filming, than to have no real gun laws and have 11,000 gun murders a year or something. I know this is a bit off topic, but hey, shoot me for it.
Anyway, i've done filming with replica guns in the past, and police have driven right past us cos we are blatently making a film. It did look a bit suspect though, 6 18 year old boys (prime gang members) on a housing estate in london with guns (we painted over the red caps)
Posted: Wed, 8th Jan 2003, 9:04pm

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Sollthar

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You should watch "Bowling for Columbine" then smile
Posted: Wed, 8th Jan 2003, 9:55pm

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BrickMovies4U

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just to tell you, not everyone in america carry guns and kill anyone that disagrees with them...

unless you live in the projects. wink
Posted: Thu, 9th Jan 2003, 3:55am

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BackOfTheHearse

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just to tell you, not everyone in america carry guns and kill anyone that disagrees with them...

unless you live in the projects. icon_wink.gif
...Or if you're a disgruntled post office worker. lol
Posted: Thu, 9th Jan 2003, 4:07am

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sidewinder

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And how bout this? Ever since Britain basically banned people from owning guns, violent crime has jumped up, whereas, in Florida, when they passed the conceal-and-carry law (allowing people to carry concealed guns if they got a permit), violent crime noticeably dropped.

Same thing happened in Australia. they heavily restricted gun ownership, and violent crime took off.

How do you like them apples?



Seriously people, I've researched this. A LOT. If you throw some stereotypical drivel at me, I will bat it down like it's nothing. twisted unsure twisted unsure
Posted: Thu, 9th Jan 2003, 3:34pm

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Venger

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How do I like them apples? Well they taste a little bitter. A bit like some Americans attitude to us Brits. I feel safe I can walk down the street and not get shot at, or die in a drive by shooting. I'm sorry, but no matter how you try and justify carrying a real firearm, it's still stupid. As for the jump in violent crime in the U.K. Thats more so in the highly populated areas of poor cities, places like Manchester, London and Birmingham. And even that pales in comparison to the amount of murders in American slums. The news over here isn't littered with storys of shootings. I think that maybe a little research would do wonders. The tighter the laws on guns the better it is for everyone. Then again, don't the majority of Americans then shout about their constitutional rights? Ahhh Bush is a muppet. If there are no guns on the street, how can there be shootings? Less guns = less shootings. It's not rocket science you know.
Then again, a bit more education could also work wonders.
But we are talking about Bush here.
I'm talking about any one person here, but maybe if you lived over here, you get my meaning.

Clerk:- "Can I help you, sir?"
Shopper:- "Yes. I'll take this packet of chips, this snickers bar, a bottle of beer, a quart of milk...Oh and that pistol and a box of bullets."
Clerk "Certainly, sir. Thats $176.50"
(shopper takes his groceries, takes gun, loads gun with bullets)
Shopper:- "Empty the register. Do it NOW!"
Clerk:- "Okay, okay..Just don't shoot me"
(Clerk empties register, shopper grabs money and leaves)

You see the idiocy of it all?
Or am I, yet again, wasting my time.
Posted: Thu, 9th Jan 2003, 7:38pm

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spotless

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Wasting your time, Venger? Not at all! That was very funny indeed! biggrin

A bit stereotypical, but very funny. +1
Us Brits will never get the Yanks, and vice versa. That is the way it will always be. We think you have to dodge gangland warfare whenever you are brave enough to venture outside your bunker/home in the US; and the Yanks think the only part of England with people in is London.

But lets stop this stupid 'my country's better than yours' - its a bit childish...

And to av11d and Mecha: bad TV???!!! WTF yourself. How do you know?! You don't watch UK TV!! You see a few terrible shows we sell to some terrible US networks (why did they buy them!!??) and you then think that is indicative of UK TV generally? Why?! That makes no sense. The BBC happens to be the largest single producer of original content in the world (TV, Radio, Film, Web content, Publishing etc etc) - and I'll happily go on record saying that much of it (not all) rocks. And as for C4; one of the best commissioning bodies ever. I love British TV! You just don’t get to see it. Poor you.
Posted: Fri, 10th Jan 2003, 2:36am

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sidewinder

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Venger, you are so totally off that I must shake my head iin shame.

I'll reply to your post later, when I have the time. (Don't come back with another post quite yet, because it'll be too much to type about).



As for my country versus yours, I'm sure Britain is a fine place...But for some reason I don't seem to be living there. oink
Posted: Fri, 10th Jan 2003, 3:06am

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Kid

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Yeah well. We had 10 shootings last year in the whole of the country! Gun laws help immensly. The main problem at the moment is the big rise in people holding up places with fake guns. Last year in Norwich only there were 4 occurances of this!

As well as not having crazy gangs all over the place shooting people England is better because we have no native deadly poisonous animals, you can drink before you're 21 (at 5 and 18), our cow beef tastes better than cattle beef and we also have lamb!

Last edited Fri, 10th Jan 2003, 3:10am; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Fri, 10th Jan 2003, 3:08am

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Kid

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I almost forgot we also have better music.
Posted: Fri, 10th Jan 2003, 3:19am

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supersmasher

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Compare the size of Britain with the size of the US. And about the music being better...I'll give you the Beatles but yall also invented Falco.

Ooooo rock me Amadeus!!

Super unsure
Posted: Fri, 10th Jan 2003, 3:53am

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sidewinder

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yeah, and the comic strip "Fred the Basset".



ugh. sad
Posted: Fri, 10th Jan 2003, 3:56am

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sidewinder

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You only had 10 shootings?

How many murders, muggings, rapes, in-home-burglaries, hold-ups, assaults, and fights did you have last year?
Posted: Fri, 10th Jan 2003, 4:03am

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Kid

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You have more deaths from violent crime in shootings than not.

We have more deaths from violent crime without shootings.

However we have far less total deaths from violent crime (including shootings) per person than you do.

Its blatently obvious that gun laws mean less deaths. People may feel safer when they have a gun 'to protect themselves' but statistically they are worse off.
Posted: Fri, 10th Jan 2003, 3:24pm

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Venger

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Right, I now you said not to reply till you posted (Sidewinder), but I'm going to anyway.
First off, I don't live is some pokey little area where nothing happens ever. We have drug problems, violence problems, burglaries..All the usual crap that every country in the world gets. Thing is, if I go out to the pub, get into an argument and it turns into a fight, I know that I'm not going to die as a result of getting shot. That's because guns over here are harder to come by that they are in the U.S.A. I'm not saying it's impossible to get a firearm in the U.K, you can, it's just it's highly uncommon for anyone to have one, especialy on the streets.
Look, this isn't a U.k vs U.S.A thing alright. You are our alies after all, and I have NOTHING against Americans. I don't have anything against any country. Just because I think that the U.S.A has its head buried in the sand, doesn't mean that EVERYONE is going to have the same beliefs as me. And as far as statistics and figures go. You really think that those figures are genuine? Come on, they have been altered to have a better look for the public.
As for the music thing. I like both British and American music. Each country has great musicians. I can't comment on any other country's as I don't really listen to music from there.
Last thing we all need is a full scale forum war. The u.k has it's problems, the U.S has it's problems. Face fact. O.k put it this way. Could you go wandering around the town at night or early hours of the morning and feel safe that you wouldn't get held up at gunpoint? I do. I might get held up at large stick or kitchen knife point. But I bet $1,000 that virtualy no one in my town, and that goes for the big drugs dealers has a gun.
As for the Fred Basset comic thing. Oh please. We do have other comics besides that. I'll give you 1. Judge Dredd from 2000AD. I could list more, but I frankly can't be bothered to extend the life of this "Us vs Them" crap

Anyway. Thats just MY opinion.

Last edited Fri, 10th Jan 2003, 4:58pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Fri, 10th Jan 2003, 4:40pm

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Fight

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Right, going back to the topic at hand.

The idea of banning the carrying and use of replica guns in public is not as stupid an idea as it may seem. At first glance it seems ridiculous but you'd be surprised what they can be used for. You can force someone to give you their money, simply because they think you have a real loaded gun pointed at them. Not only this but there is a strong fear that a lot of replica guns are getting modified to become real. This is the easiest way to get an actual gun without having to register or get a permit etc and is happening now more than ever.

But at the end of the day this doesnt really matter. As long as you keep your BB gun concealed at all times and dont do anything stupid (thus allowing yourself to get searched) then the new laws wont effect you in a major way. I for one never used to go around town waving my bb gun around and I dont plan to start to now.

At the end of the day this law has been floating around for ages but has never really been put into action. But now with the recent Birmingham shootings it seems that the government has been scared into action.

Cheers,
Fight.
Posted: Fri, 10th Jan 2003, 4:55pm

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malone

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I think its the punishment that people are stunned by. I wouldnt be suprised if its already illegal to run around with BB guns, but 5 years is a little steep if you get caught just having one. The law already says your not allowed to rob people for money (with guns or otherwise). I could threaten someone with a screwdriver, does that mean they should be illegal to carry?

Of course a 5 year sentance is prolly just media hype. In reality the police are just cracking down on people who are up to no good. Most people should be fine if they are sensible
Posted: Fri, 10th Jan 2003, 5:24pm

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sidewinder

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First, I must agree that statistics tend to be warped to prove their point, but there is always a little truth in each one.

For example:

In America, the percentage of house burglaries that occur with the residents at home is 14%. In Britain it's 60%. I find that this corresponds with the fact that half the households in the US have guns in them, whereas in Britain there are barely any.

Secondly, I am in no way comparing countries. I am just comparing situations. You dudes have all your guns banned, and our gov't is currently trying to do so. I'm able to use Britain as an example then, but only to a certain degree, of what crime is like when guns are banned.


Now, when walking down the street, I in no way fear of being shot in a drive-by shooting. I don't know what you're thinking, but the overwhelming number of murder cases happen to people who know each other. If I were to get in a bar fight, I would still be more afraid of getting stabbed than shot with a gun.

Banning guns didn't get rid of the murderers in Britain. You might be able to walk down an alley without being afraid of being robbed at gunpoint, but that mugger will likely be using a knife instead.

Don't start describing inner city gang situations as reasons to ban guns. First off, we already have gun laws with the purpose to prevent people like that getting guns. Having more will not help. I have not committed any crime, and I don't get how banning me from owning a firearm will solve our problems with crime, especially since criminals are already supposedly banned from owning funs.

Anyways, more will come later once I see what people have to say.
Posted: Fri, 10th Jan 2003, 6:58pm

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Monkey Man

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woa, seems some people have been getting a bit irrate.Guess i was a bit heavy handed by saying that i would be scared of being shot if i was in america, cos i've been there and i wasn't scared. I think though that a lot of problems stem from poverty. In central cities there is quite a bit of violent crime, and knives are something that scares me... i've been mugged once and fortunatly they were unarmed but i would rather be shot than stabbed - a nice quick death is preferable, for me! tard

Crime is just in our nature. The other day I heard that a bunch of scientists had managed to track our origins back to a certian bunch of monkeys, and these monkeys in their tenage years formed death gangs', patroling their territory killing parrots and other monkeys for fun, before maturing in to adults. Kinda thing we do as most crime is commited by people in cities under the age of 21. In france (please don't take offense any french geezers out there) a lot of teens mess around (shop lifting and stuff) only to mature into great people (and i know a LOT of french kids so i can safely say this is true in my experience!).

I'm sure that like in England, the only place that murders happen frequently in the usa is in the Inner Cities and places of poverty. It's just that in america, because of the vast amount of really rich people, there are even more really, really poor people.

Back to the subject of film making, we should be alright as long as we are clearly using cameras to film the event (and it is obvious we ARE NOT making snuff movies!). Like I said, the police ignored us last ime. Besides police are really rare in the UK!! Just be sensible and put the guns in bags between takes.

Oh and lets stop this my country is better than yours nonsense. make love not war!! lol
Posted: Fri, 10th Jan 2003, 9:06pm

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BrickMovies4U

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thats a good idea!

btw- my coutry is WAY better than yours! razz
Posted: Fri, 10th Jan 2003, 9:30pm

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Kid

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Yeah, I was mainly kidding about but it amazed me the other day when I found out they don't have lamb!

PS High amounts of burglaries has more to do with our culture than gun laws. Eg we have a lot of problems with hoax calls to the fire brigade and other emergency services whereas you dont really get that problem over there apparently.

PPS I'd rather be burgled than shot!
(Yes burgled is the right word, Burglarised isn't a proper word even in American)
Posted: Fri, 10th Jan 2003, 10:03pm

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BrickMovies4U

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(Yes burgled is the right word, Burglarised isn't a proper word even in American)
That isn't proper grammar, even in English.

jk lol
Posted: Fri, 10th Jan 2003, 10:13pm

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sidewinder

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Monkey Man, I agree with you on mostly everything but this:

It's just that in america, because of the vast amount of really rich people, there are even more really, really poor people.
The more I look at our economic system, the more I see that poor people are poor because of the bad decisions they've made in their life, not because someone else started a business, and was successful.

I also agree with the fact that violence has much more to do with culture, but banning guns won't decrease the violence. It will increase it. That has been proven. Period.

One other little fact:

If you are shot once with a pistol, you have an 86% chance of surviving. Those odds aren't too bad. Of course, if you get shot twice, it drops down to around 40%.

Anyways, back to the topic at hand...
Posted: Fri, 10th Jan 2003, 10:32pm

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Spam_Daddy

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Good Lord People... who cares what country is better.... GEEZE! We dont all have to fight over one place being better than another!

I live in America, I used to live in Germany... They are both equal in my standards... now, lets fight over something worth fighting over razz
Posted: Fri, 10th Jan 2003, 10:56pm

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Fight

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"You're six times more likely to be shot in London than you are in New York. But then again you don't live in New York."
Posted: Wed, 15th Jan 2003, 5:29am

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Tasblades

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Banning guns punishes the good guy NOT the bad guy. Criminals usually don't buy guns in the first place.

Banning something does not equal crime decline. Criminals are criminals no matter what you put in their hand. If a guy walks into a GROCERY STORE and beats the clerks brains out with a baseball bat should we ban baseball? lol, I don't think so but if you don't like baseball this may be a ticket for YOUR cause just as hunting is to animal rights activist and every other form of liberal scum. This is typical liberal protocal. For me to TOLERATE is not enough I must also except their way or belief in life. THIS is why America is the GREATEST country in the world. We tolerate but we don't force our personal will on others like Liberal countries do. Trust me they are trying here, this country has been invaded with all forms of liberalism and just because it sounds good don't meen it is good (music etc.) Some things are poison in diguise.

Guns in the hands of good people never hurt anyone that didn't diserve it. It is the right to bare arms in this country that has made it so great. And before you knock America too much just remember it is America that has bailed out every country on the globe in times of trouble, even Britain in WW11. We are the most charitable and forgiving country on the planet and we will stand down to none. We feed and clothe our enemies and rebuild their sand boxes after We defend ourselves against them. WE are not Cowards. France cried for help in WW11 and we bailed them out but it is France that will not stand with us when we need them...Cowards. We are Canada's big brother and without us they are just a sitting duck. I could go on and on about every country on this planet...read your history.

This freedom that we enjoy is dispised by the world but who does the world call on? AMERICA every time. You ban your guns, take them from good people and see if the criminal cares. I know the stats and your criminals love it! Now he can break into your house without any fear of you having one, rape your wife while holding a gun to your head. You can have your liberal country friend! lol Break into my house and I will be your judge, jury and executioner. Rightfully so and tons of my tax money saved.

So walk down the street whistling and skipping, on your way to the grocery store, and when the crook puts a gun to your head tell him that they are banned! rolleyes

Peace
Posted: Wed, 15th Jan 2003, 7:36am

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er-no

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Guns never kill anyone. You can't die from a bullet.

Apparently... eek


Also, I won't be stopped by the police at this rate. I can't bloody get hold of any rifles for my film. Grrrr evil
Posted: Wed, 15th Jan 2003, 8:18am

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Kid

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Tasblades wrote:

Banning guns punishes the good guy NOT the bad guy. Criminals usually don't buy guns in the first place.

Banning something does not equal crime decline. Criminals are criminals no matter what you put in their hand. If a guy walks into a GROCERY STORE and beats the clerks brains out with a baseball bat should we ban baseball? lol, I don't think so but if you don't like baseball this may be a ticket for YOUR cause just as hunting is to animal rights activist and every other form of liberal scum. This is typical liberal protocal. For me to TOLERATE is not enough I must also except their way or belief in life. THIS is why America is the GREATEST country in the world. We tolerate but we don't force our personal will on others like Liberal countries do. Trust me they are trying here, this country has been invaded with all forms of liberalism and just because it sounds good don't meen it is good (music etc.) Some things are poison in diguise.

Guns in the hands of good people never hurt anyone that didn't diserve it. It is the right to bare arms in this country that has made it so great. And before you knock America too much just remember it is America that has bailed out every country on the globe in times of trouble, even Britain in WW11. We are the most charitable and forgiving country on the planet and we will stand down to none. We feed and clothe our enemies and rebuild their sand boxes after We defend ourselves against them. WE are not Cowards. France cried for help in WW11 and we bailed them out but it is France that will not stand with us when we need them...Cowards. We are Canada's big brother and without us they are just a sitting duck. I could go on and on about every country on this planet...read your history.

This freedom that we enjoy is dispised by the world but who does the world call on? AMERICA every time. You ban your guns, take them from good people and see if the criminal cares. I know the stats and your criminals love it! Now he can break into your house without any fear of you having one, rape your wife while holding a gun to your head. You can have your liberal country friend! lol Break into my house and I will be your judge, jury and executioner. Rightfully so and tons of my tax money saved.

So walk down the street whistling and skipping, on your way to the grocery store, and when the crook puts a gun to your head tell him that they are banned! rolleyes

Peace
Hehe, it's amazing how many americans actually believe that drivel.


On America...

The Americans didn't run to our aid, in fact they wouldn't help at all until they were themselves attacked. Go read a history book. Also I think you'll find that it was actually Russia and the weather that really stopped Hitler. Yes the Americans helped but with the usual incompetance and not as soon as they should have done.

The world doesn't despise 'the freedom that you enjoy' but the arrogance that you think you are the greatest and brush over the many problems your country has. Also probably the fact America wastes so much with no consideration for the Environment when a lot of the rest of the world is so poor. Also the fact that you ignore the rules when it suits you. America is even the only country to have used weapons of mass destruction before!

Also America is generally known more for meddling rather than toleration. They tend to side with the side that suits them rather than the side of right. A prime example is the mess in Israel they are envolved in.

On Crime...

We don't get people breaking in and raping people, that kind of violent crime is a lot rarer here. Also they wouldn't be doing it with guns since people carrying guns is also very rare here. We have more problems with people with fake guns. Our high crime is mainly crime of opportunity, things like people breaking in when people are on holiday and taking the VCR, that sort of thing. Most violent crime is drug related.

The point in banning guns is not to stop people having them because not many do but to make it easier to recognise who is a criminal and who is not. Carrying a handgun was always illegal here as is carrying anything as a weapon. Funnily enough your example of carrying a baseball bat as a weapon would be illegal here too. Before you say anything stupid about that, our Police (unlike yours razz ) have some common sense and the law is down to interpretation. Carrying a baseball bat or kitchen knife randomly would be illegal because it is a weapon but you wouldn't get arrested for taking it to a baseball game or from a store or whatever.
Posted: Wed, 15th Jan 2003, 8:28am

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Kid

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I'm not anti american btw, I'm just anti typical american who fits the stereotype of arrogance and actually believing their own hype.
Posted: Wed, 15th Jan 2003, 5:30pm

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Tasblades

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The Kid said"Hehe, it's amazing how many americans actually believe that drivel.


On America...

The Americans didn't run to our aid, in fact they wouldn't help at all until they were themselves attacked. Go read a history book. Also I think you'll find that it was actually Russia and the weather that really stopped Hitler. Yes the Americans helped but with the usual incompetance and not as soon as they should have done.

The world doesn't despise 'the freedom that you enjoy' but the arrogance that you think you are the greatest and brush over the many problems your country has. Also probably the fact America wastes so much with no consideration for the Environment when a lot of the rest of the world is so poor. Also the fact that you ignore the rules when it suits you. America is even the only country to have used weapons of mass destruction before!

Also America is generally known more for meddling rather than toleration. They tend to side with the side that suits them rather than the side of right. A prime example is the mess in Israel they are envolved in.

On Crime...

We don't get people breaking in and raping people, that kind of violent crime is a lot rarer here. Also they wouldn't be doing it with guns since people carrying guns is also very rare here. We have more problems with people with fake guns. Our high crime is mainly crime of opportunity, things like people breaking in when people are on holiday and taking the VCR, that sort of thing. Most violent crime is drug related.

The point in banning guns is not to stop people having them because not many do but to make it easier to recognise who is a criminal and who is not. Carrying a handgun was always illegal here as is carrying anything as a weapon. Funnily enough your example of carrying a baseball bat as a weapon would be illegal here too. Before you say anything stupid about that, our Police (unlike yours ) have some common sense and the law is down to interpretation. Carrying a baseball bat or kitchen knife randomly would be illegal because it is a weapon but you wouldn't get arrested for taking it to a baseball game or from a store or whatever."

No it's amazing how many Americans know this. Where do you get your stats? Tell those lies to someone who don't know better. Remember your country is the one who not only has the most violent form of crime (terrorism) street bombings etc. long before we did. That's more than stealing VCR's.

America meddling? Your country's history of taking countries and trying to change them to fit your culture (Catholosism) is why you have folks like the Irish planting bombs on your street long before us. We meddling? lol. Your policy of Imperialism ruled by a goofy monarchy has caused your country much pain! I know the history very well and I know why Russia was allowed to take Belgium. Our policy with Isreal is much different than your policies of taking countries. We support Democracy not aggression as your country has for centuries. Your castles with their torture chambers and Inquisition logs tell the story.

Your argument for banning guns is dry friend along with baseball bats lol. Your "No rape in my country" is a short argument as well. What about a chair lol or a tree limb? Get real man, you are dreaming. Criminals don't follow the law hince CRIMINAL. Outlaw everything and it don't change the mind.

Stop rewarding failure! This is the root of crime. Educate people don't punish the good thinking you are solving the bad...wrong! Has sanctions changed Sadam, Korea, China, Cuba etc etc. NO! All sanctions has done is hurt the INNOCENT people.

You punish the criminal, don't slap his hand.

It's amazing how uneducated liberals will point at the tool and not the user. This attitude will bite you one day.

You could always live in China? Everything is banned there.

Peace wink

PS: Neither am I anti britsh, one of our few allies, just wouldn't live there.
Posted: Wed, 15th Jan 2003, 5:46pm

Post 37 of 97

Kid

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Ha! You're an idiot, you've got just about everything backwards in that post.

Plus in case you hadn't realised 'our' history of castles and such is just as much your history too. Americans seem to forget when they are going on about independance day and stuff that they were once British and Britain set them up and protected them from the French and the Native Americans only to have them turn around and side against them just to get out of paying tax like the rest of the British! Heh, they did well there didn't they! (just compare our tax rates razz )

Also I didn't say we didn't get rape. We don't get people breaking into people's homes to commit violent crime, its mainly on the street or up some dark alley where people are taken by surprise.
Posted: Wed, 15th Jan 2003, 5:52pm

Post 38 of 97

Kid

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Tasblades wrote:

Remember your country is the one who not only has the most violent form of crime (terrorism) street bombings etc. long before we did.
Er hello, what about prohibition, gansters, bombings and drive by shootings!

In your amazingly tolorant society, why are you more free to have a gun and shoot someone you don't like the look of than to drink or gamble?
Posted: Wed, 15th Jan 2003, 5:55pm

Post 39 of 97

Tasblades

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Heres another stupid uneducated policy happening in our country. They have banned sewing needle's, finger nail clippers etc. on airline flights. BUT I can still carry my INK PIN on board! I can kill you in about 6 secs with an ink pin, pencil, plastic spoon that they give me to eat my flight meal or how about this, my eye glass frame, or my sharpened credit card.

You see safety is an illusion if you think banning tools and objects will stop crime. To the gullable this is warm and fuzzy but to the folks with common sense it's obvious. Weapons are everywhere, just use your brain. There are other ways to deter airline crime but you would not want to here that.

Peace wink
Posted: Wed, 15th Jan 2003, 5:58pm

Post 40 of 97

Tasblades

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Very insightful Kid.

Crime has always existed here in America... my point is that it has in yours as well and in the same capacity that you try to deny. Just as violent and in the same form with or without LAWS.

Peace wink
Posted: Wed, 15th Jan 2003, 6:02pm

Post 41 of 97

Kid

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Tasblades wrote:

Crime has always existed here in America... my point is that it has in yours as well and in the same capacity that you try to deny. Just as violent and in the same form with or without LAWS.
Ah but we don't have as much violent crime per person as in the states and we have significantly less shootings which shows that they do work.
Posted: Wed, 15th Jan 2003, 6:14pm

Post 42 of 97

anonymous

Again you quote bogus stats.

The main reason pilgrims came to this country was to escape religous persecution. Comparring the taxes of then to now is futile. Like you said we were once apart of Britain but separated. I know very well the reasons why we became independant...it's the same reason all of the countries that your country stole is becoming that way as well. America is a melting pot of many nationalities, not just English. My people are from Spain so we never were part of Britain. They came (my ancestors) here in the early 1700's from Spain.

Robbing the poor to bathe the MONARCHY in riches is not very admirable. No comparrison to today's taxes. Intrest rates are great though! wink

Peace

BTW..are you working on a film?
Posted: Wed, 15th Jan 2003, 6:15pm

Post 43 of 97

anonymous

For some reason I am logged out but that last post was me ..TASBLADES. Oh and the tax thing was called "Taxation without Representation".

Peace
Posted: Wed, 15th Jan 2003, 8:46pm

Post 44 of 97

Kid

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Heh, that's even better. It was the spaniards who first exploited the native americans and all but wiped them out!
Posted: Wed, 15th Jan 2003, 8:54pm

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wdy

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Guns laws sure do suck, but it always depends where you are in the world...each place has their own laws. Just run around with a fake and see what happens that one way to find out wink
Posted: Wed, 15th Jan 2003, 11:57pm

Post 46 of 97

Tasblades

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Kid said, "Heh, that's even better. It was the spaniards who first exploited the native americans and all but wiped them out!"

Kid, who said the Spaniards were good guys? Spain was one of the most brutal countries ever. I don't live in Spain either though do I? I'm not proud of most of my ancestors but niether do I deny their crimes.

Your argument for banning guns has obviously fallen apart, you must do better.

Peace wink
Posted: Thu, 16th Jan 2003, 4:42am

Post 47 of 97

sidewinder

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Kid, listen. There isn't a correlation between banning guns, and crime going down. It doesn't help in any way, and it just changes the way crimes occur. It should be my choice if I want to own a gun, since I have committed no crime. I prefer to have a chance to defend myself with a weapon that will level the field between my attacker and I.

It's that simple.


Secondly, you need to do less stereotyping of us Americans. There were many false pre-conceived notions on the previous page. Avoid those, if you can, whilst debating a controversial issue.

Same goes for everyone else.
Posted: Thu, 16th Jan 2003, 7:42am

Post 48 of 97

er-no

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sidewinder wrote:

Kid, listen. There isn't a correlation between banning guns, and crime going down.
I think there is.
Posted: Thu, 16th Jan 2003, 9:48am

Post 49 of 97

Kid

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Having a gun doesn't level the playing field.

Here the criminals don't have guns either. A few do but it is very rare. Even a film like Snatch is vastly exaggerated.

Over there it also doesn't level the playing ground since a criminal with a gun has his ready to shoot someone and also has more practice than you. If you go to grab a gun to defend yourself you are more likely to just get shot than if you go along with what they want.


Also gun laws DO help since we have gun laws we have kept a gunless society and so have much less violent crime and shootings than you. That is a fact.

Countries with lax laws like Finland only don't have the laws because they don't need them. People don't have guns over there either.

Less Guns = Less Crime

Whether its a country like ours that has laws to enforce it or a country which doesn't have the laws but doesn't have guns anyway.
Posted: Thu, 16th Jan 2003, 10:34am

Post 50 of 97

Xcession

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This arguement has become disturbingly polarised. People have begun to hoard over their petty customs and laws, convinced that they are right simply because they assume that their laws are right. Also because some convenient statistic might (and that's a big "might") back it up.

The fact is. Crime will exist regardless of the methods of perpetrating it.

However a lack of guns means a lack of gun-related deaths. Surely you people can see this? Even those of you who regurgitate the mob-mentality ideas of middle-america without considering them can surely grasp the simple maths of this? If there is 1 gun in all of england, all 75 million of us can't all use it at once. Ergo less people die from guns. If there were 75 million guns in circulation, anyone with an axe to grind (or should that be gun razz) would use it as a means to an end.

Its true, we do have a lot of domestic crime. And i would be inclined to believe its the lack of deterent - in the form of a gun - that allows this to happen; but you are assuming that all gun-owners are nice!

You are also assuming that the gun-owner is intelligent...something which i'm afraid to say is not displayed by some areas of american society, more so than england at least.

An owner of a gun incapable of defining "necessary force" or one incapable of understanding consequence and reality, is just as dangerous as a premeditated criminal.
Therefore, the point has been missed that gun laws aren't to protect ourselves from the criminals, but to protect ourselves from ourselves too.

What some news articles DON'T point out, is that one reason for banning guns is that its becoming increasingly hard to diferentiate between fake and real, and the british police are more and more frequently gunning down a completely innocent man guilty of nothing more than owning a convincing water-pistol. No joke.

This reflects rather badly on our police force, but i'm not here to stick up for them, i'm here to stick up for gun-laws.

Gun laws CAN be taken too far, but in a smaller country like the UK where there are fewer people for the government to look after, its more feasible to do these seemingly idiotic gun restrictions. If it weren't for the "right to bear arms" and the sheer size of america, i doubt americas politicians would be averse to being a bit more heavy-handed with the gun policies.

Guns protect civilians from those who mean to harm them, but don't protect them from the stupid people who don't know better (namely our police and your trailer-trash culture razz).

I'd rather be f*cked up the arse by a burglar in my own house (where you got this information from i'll never know!) and have my tv, vcr and computer nicked; than never see another day again. I'd imagine my family and friends would agree.
Anyone who thinks contrary to this and would rather raise their chances of being shot on a day-to-day basis while buying groceries, should probably re-evaluate their sad pathetic lives and talk to their parents more.

Theres more to life than protecting your microwave you know.

Guns aren't protection, guns are unfortunate.
Posted: Thu, 16th Jan 2003, 1:14pm

Post 51 of 97

Tasblades

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"I'd rather be f*cked up the arse by a burglar in my own house (where you got this information from i'll never know!) and have my tv, vcr and computer nicked; than never see another day again. I'd imagine my family and friends would agree.
Anyone who thinks contrary to this and would rather raise their chances of being shot on a day-to-day basis while buying groceries, should probably re-evaluate their sad pathetic lives and talk to their parents more.

Theres more to life than protecting your microwave you know.

Guns aren't protection, guns are unfortunate."


If this is what you would rather (f*cked up the arse) then so be it, my arse is made for outgoing not incoming you may prefer otherwise. You may like that sort of thing. wink I don't know where you get your stats either but people do get raped in arse at gun point, knife point etc etc. Are you that isolated?

That is the most pathetic attempt to argue gun rights that I have ever seen. It doesn't matter what you are protecting or how you do it...you like most ignorant and uneducated people FEAR the tool and not the FOOL. The word GUN intimidates you, it's what you have been taught, ignorance spawns ignorance. It's just a piece of steel that throws a fast projectile. Your vehicle is just as deadly. In fact more people are killed by vehicles than guns ever do or will do, this is facts not opinion. And opinion is all that you can offer.

Last year in Ameraca, airplanes was seen as deadly weapons. I'm sure some idiot will try to ban them one day, after all less planes less crashes...what a pathetic arguement.

Peace
Posted: Thu, 16th Jan 2003, 1:45pm

Post 52 of 97

Xcession

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people were saying that all sorts of nasties happen *IN THE HOME* in england, and people were trying to attribute that to a lack of deterrant, namely guns.


"I don't know where you get your stats either but people do get raped in arse at gun point, knife point etc etc. Are you that isolated?"
erm, i'm sorry..but where did i say they don't?

I was arguing against the people that were previously trying to validate gun laws by saying it was self-protection.
What i was trying to say was that i'd rather be f*cked in the arse and live in a society without guns, than live in one WITH guns and die from being shot in some lame scenario, like a burglary gone wrong.

Yes burglaries happen with other weapons too...but a gun is by far the most dealy weapon available on the market to regular jos. And gun-shots are far more likely to kill instantly, unlike - say- a stab wound. And thats FACT, not my opinion (seeing as you took great pleasure in brandishing your 'facts', touche).

You seem to have missed my point entirely. Namely that its irrelevant what you fear, is that there will always be stupid people and they can't be stopped. Its not a case of fearing, its a case of having to tolerate the innevitable.

Guns protect civilians from those who mean to harm them, but don't protect them from the stupid people who don't know better
(its sad that i have to quote myself to prove your point...please read more carefuly in future)

In fact in light of what i was trying to say in my original post it would actually seem as if i am leaning on the side of fearing the fool, not the tool. So i've no idea why you decided to go off on one about that.

It seems you are inadvertantly creating evidence for my original point about people regurgitating sound-bytes without questionning their ethics.

Personally i'd love to have a gun in my house, i admit it would make me feel incredibly safe, incredibly powerful and i dare say i'd be a responsible owner too. If the english law could be changed to make gun-ownership legal and allowing the trespassers-will-be-shot policy on your own property, i'd whole-heartedly agree that domestic crime would be less. But with everyone being able to own a gun, it would simply give those with a motive and a means, a better method to exploit/rape/attack the innocents.

What i was trying to say, which i clearly haven't got across to you, is that if guns were available and everyone thought the same way, then guns would filter into the communities that are LESS responsible with their weaponary - and hence we'd have a gun problem.

I'm only trying to discuss this. I fail to see how your random snipes and condescensions advance the discussion or your viewpoint, which i hasten to add is - to a point - perfectly valid. On the contrary...you seem to be ranting against the very points on which we agree.

calm down its only the internet!
Posted: Thu, 16th Jan 2003, 2:38pm

Post 53 of 97

anonymous

"I was arguing against the people that were previously trying to validate gun laws by saying it was self-protection."

X, I think you miss my point. Self-protection is not the main reason I fight gun laws. It is a freedom that we have enjoyed for ages and has more to do with hunting than anything. Self protection is just a piece of the pie. It was the topic of discussion. It is the "Right to Bare Arms" that I protect. My point is to show that the tool has nothing to do with crime rate.

My cold comments (f#cked up the arse) were a refelction of yours, a copy. You see I can talk nasty too. wink That don't make us tough just nasty.

I have owned guns all of my life, was taught by my father and his father just like I was taught to make knives. My two boys are very keen on the use of guns and enjoy them as well...they have been well educated. They are great kids and their character is un challenged. Owning guns does not equal "trailer trash". This is a heritage in my family. None of us have ever killed or shot at anybody for that matter other than at war in the military.

After reading your last post and seeing how you would love to own a gun yourself it only proves my point that most folks are just plain jealous of my freedom.

Most people miss the whole concept of guns and associate them with crime just as some do knives, another tool that we use everyday when we eat. Imagine a place where everything you were taught about knives was bad. We would have to use chop sticks to grind our steak (you should read history on Okinawa and what happened when they took their weapons). If ever the nuts come out of the box to ban knives, I will feel the same way..WHY? There would be 50,000 stupid arguments to try to condem them and it would be the same ignorant reasons.


When you stop responding with pages of comments, then we can decide who needs to "calm down", it's sorta in the air if you ask me. One thing I can agree with you on though is that this is the "internet"...great revelation. wink

Peace
Posted: Thu, 16th Jan 2003, 2:41pm

Post 54 of 97

Tasblades

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I was logged out but the post above was me. rolleyes
Posted: Thu, 16th Jan 2003, 3:09pm

Post 55 of 97

Xcession

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Ah....well in that case we ARE argueing at cross purposes. I wrote my rant based on the the ramblings of other people who were argueing that guns != crime, when of course - guns do equal crime. Not all of crime, but some of it evidentally.

It now seems that you are argueing that guns != crime rate, which is a completely different thing.

hehe, believe me, talking about being f*cked in the arse isn't be being nasty thats how i normally talk. No bullsh*t...ask around razz

I never said that owning a gun = trailer trash, what i DID say was


...protect them from the stupid people who don't know better..... (....your trailer-trash culture).
By which i meant - in the context of that specific post - that it was the uneducated who weren't able to hold the same respect and reverence for their heritage or the potential danger that caused the problems.

Your sons and yourself are probably not the only family to own guns and respect them. But there are an equal number of people who do not understand guns in the same way, and won't be as responsible as your family is/has-been.

The reason I stated that i'd like a gun was to juxtapose the logic of wanting a gun in the next paragraph.
Owning a gun "because i'd like to" is not a good enough reason for legalising firearm ownership for the masses. We do not have the same gun culture in england as you do. Nor, therefore, can we possibly found the ownership of guns on the same steady foundations of respect that your country has had for centuries. Although not all americans respect guns, there are a sufficient percentage of them that do, that help to keep gun problems to a minimum.

We haven't owned guns for as long as you have, so suddenly introducing them is just ludicrous.

Objectively you are 100% correct....guns are just another tool. But in practice people realise the potential of what guns do and exploit it. Just like people exploit almost everything else available to them (internet:hacking, knifes:stabbing, rainforests:logging, 3rd world:McDonalds razz).

Your personal - and thoroughly commendable - respect of weaponary does NOT make it sensible (or safe!) for everyone else to own a gun. This is my point.

I've owned many guns in my time, air pistols when i was a kid, air-rifles when i was a little older, later 'proper' markmans rifles for competition (very similar to those used in the 'sniper shootings'), and i've also used - but not owned - automatic assault rifles in army training. All capable of causing injury in one way or another, instant death in the case of rifles.

Just because I understand them doesn't mean that if i give the same carbine to some guy living off the state in a housing-project in manchester, he'll go "ooh how noble, the fascinating working of a gun, the power, the accuracy, the tradition"....

...he'll go "F*CK YOU, PONCE! *VABBAAM*" then go hold up the nearest 7/11!

I may have missed the point that guns aren't about crime, they are just a tool, but you seem to be missing the - possibly- more important point that not all people are like you! Its THESE people that gunlaws are created for to protect people like you and me!
Posted: Thu, 16th Jan 2003, 3:38pm

Post 56 of 97

Tasblades

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X, lol...um no guns do NOT equal crime! You keep missin it man. Airplanes do not equal crime. Criminals equal crime! I can't make it any more simple than that. PUNISH the CRIMINAL not the innocent. Don't ban airplanes because Rashad Raheed Insane uses one to kill people. ANYTHING is a weapon, do you not understand that? Anything...liberals just havn't figured that out yet.

In America we have more gun laws than you can count. It is the lack of enforcment of the laws that causes the system to fail. If I kill someone with a baseball bat, put me in jail! Punish me not the baseball players.

So let me be clear for you Guns do NOT eqaul crime or Crime rate. Criminals equal crime and crime rate.

Cocain is illeagal in my country. Has it stopped the criminal? NO! Criminals don't obey laws. When you ban guns in America, all you will do is take them from the good people only, crooks will continue to get them just like they do drugs etc. This joke of an arguement by saying "the criminals will be easier to identify because they will be the only ones with guns" is a joke! Criminal will be easy to identify by their CRIME! Period. They don't have to use a gun to be identified lol. wink

Peace
Posted: Thu, 16th Jan 2003, 4:24pm

Post 57 of 97

Tasblades

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http://www.nraila.org/factsheets.asp?FormMode=Detail&ID=17

If you dare to read the facts, here they are. There is even some on the Britsh "gun wars". wink

Peace
Posted: Thu, 16th Jan 2003, 4:41pm

Post 58 of 97

Xcession

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Hmmm, the facts are indeed revealing and interesting. But those are still the facts about the USA, where gun-ownership is probably as common as dog-ownership, which both dilutes the impact of owning a gun and increases acceptance of it.

The same rules and ideas just CANNOT be applied to a country with about 1% of the guns are owned by legitimate people, and 99% are owned by criminals. Ie: England.

Didn't this thread start by talking about English laws? thats what i'm talking about.

Using the twin towers as a 'reason' for not banning stuff is just silly. No one expects a plane to be used as a weapon, unless its fitted with rockets...thats why we license the army to use such planes. No one expects satsumas to be used as a weapon thats why we don't ban those either. Knives CAN be used as a weapon, but the severity of the crime will always be less, so needs less immediate attention. I'm sorry this sounds cold but its true...a stabbing victim, or a knife-point rape victim will live. People being killed outright - mainly with guns in england - is something far more important to the big picture of society and demands control more than satsuma sales.

It doesn't take a genious to realise what our politicians might believe is the way of dealing with gun crime (not your politicians; ours).

People make laws, mainly, to protect people. We don't have a satsuma law because no one is murdered with a satsuma. We have gun law because people are murdered with guns.

"Criminals equal crime" pfft, thats just pedantic! Using "criminals = crime" as an arguement isn't lame, it isn't even pathetic...its just completely moot because its a tautology! Its just a sound-bite which under analysis means nothing of any worth.

In our society, England, The UK, not usa....seeing as only a tiny weeny percentage of us have guns, removing them means we are removing them mainly from criminals....because only criminals use guns criminally and a negligible percentage of the normal population are affected. Please re-read this paragraph. No, you didn't re-read it. I'm waiting. No. Come one. Right finally.

This is getting way off the point tho, the stupid thing with our new gun laws is that they prevent the recreational use of amusing replicas too. I can understand the ideas about de-activated guns etc...but banning BB guns is just stupid!

Seeing as you know equally as little about the UK as i know about America, i'd love to see you try and argue your point still. It would amuse me greatly.
Posted: Thu, 16th Jan 2003, 4:55pm

Post 59 of 97

Tasblades

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X said, "No one expects a plane to be used as a weapon, unless its fitted with rockets..."

They do now. End of argument.

PS: That fact sheet was full of britsh stats. You don't have to live in england to know anything about it...it's um public information. And uh "calm down dude, this is just the internet" wink

Peace
Posted: Thu, 16th Jan 2003, 4:59pm

Post 60 of 97

Xcession

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Heh, the internet huh? tell me more of this "internet" razz

I drive home under the flight-path of a small airstrip, i'll never look at those leerjets in the same way again! razz
Posted: Thu, 16th Jan 2003, 5:56pm

Post 61 of 97

Kid

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You miss two points. Firstly, less people die from airplanes than from walking down the street and falling over.

Secondly, guns are designed to kill things. Airplanes arn't.
Posted: Thu, 16th Jan 2003, 6:27pm

Post 62 of 97

Tasblades

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Very informative Kid, thanks for the eye opening info. wink

X, and the next time I see a gun I'm going to have fear and panic attacks...they are soooooo scary. rolleyes

Peace
Posted: Thu, 16th Jan 2003, 7:24pm

Post 63 of 97

Tasblades

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More FACTS:


FABLE XIII: Foreign countries such as England and Japan have much less crime than the U.S. because of their more severe gun laws.

Actually, we can learn a lot from the British experiment with gun control. Britain's licensing of gun owners and registration of their firearms made it possible for the government to demand mass forfeitures of registered pump and semi-automatic shotguns guns in 1988, following the murderous rampage by a deranged individual in Hungerford. Within a decade, British politicians had criminalized possession of first large caliber handguns, then all handguns. Licensed gun owners were told to turn in their handguns; the final deadline was Feb. 27, 1998.

The British government declared legal private property to be contraband and then set about confiscating it. Curbing violence was the promise; a wholesale loss of liberty was the price. And what of that promise? According to the International Crime Victims Survey carried out by the Dutch Ministry of Justice, England--together with Australia and Wales, where anti-gunners have also been at work--has the highest burglary rate and highest rates for crime of violence among the top 17 industrialized nations.1 As the Guardian put it, the study "shows England and Wales as the top of the world league with Australia as the countries where you are most likely to become a victim of crime."2

And then on Oct. 13, 2002, London's Sunday Times reported that: "Britain's murder rate has risen to its highest level since records began 100 years ago, undermining claims by ministers that they have got violent crime under control."3

Of course embarrassed British politicians have reacted to the irrefutable failure of their gun control schemes by calling for more of the same. But they have already criminalized possession of most firearms (air guns are the next target) by honest people.4 What is left for them? The answer became chillingly clear in July 2002, with the release of a government "white paper" titled "Justice for All."5 It might have been more appropriately titled "Less Civil Liberties for All."

After first disarming the British people and thereby making them more attractive to criminal predators, the government is now recommending that centuries of English Common Law be eviscerated. Among other things, the government seeks to:

allow the use of hearsay evidence in trials
retroactively remove the double jeopardy rule for serious cases
eliminate the right to trial by jury in many cases
"modernize" the exclusionary evidence rule.
As shocking as these British infringements on liberty are to Americans who cherish our Bill of Rights, they will hardly faze the people of Japan, another nation that American gun prohibitionists hold in such high esteem. Japan does have severe gun control laws and low crime, but as the Independence Institute's David Kopel noted in a work voted 1992 Book of the Year by the American Society of Criminology's Division of International Criminology, Japanese-style gun control requires measures that could not be imposed in the U.S.

In Japan, citizens have fewer protections of the right to privacy and fewer rights for criminal suspects than in the United States. Japanese police routinely search citizens at will and twice a year pay "home visits" to citizens' residences. Suspect confession rate is 95% and trial conviction rate is more than 99.9%.

The Tokyo Bar Association has said that the Japanese police routinely engage in torture or illegal treatment. Even in cases where suspects claimed to have been tortured and their bodies bore the physical traces to back their claims, courts have still accepted their confessions. Amnesty International, Kopel noted, calls Japan's police custody system "a flagrant violation of United Nations human rights principles."

But, Kopel wrote, "Without abrogating the Bill of Rights, America could not give its police and prosecutors extensive Japanese-style powers to enforce severe gun laws effectively. Unlike the Japanese, Americans are not already secure from crime, and are therefore less likely to surrender their personal means of defense. More importantly, America has no tradition like Japan's of civil disarmament, of submission to authority, or of trust in the government." Thus, "Foreign style gun control is doomed to failure in America. Foreign gun control comes along with searches and seizures, and with many other restrictions on civil liberties too intrusive for America. . . . It postulates an authoritarian philosophy of government and society fundamentally at odds with the individualist and egalitarian American ethos."6

Perhaps Don. B. Kates, a noted civil rights lawyer, best put the international comparison myth in perspective, writing, "In any society, truly violent people are only a small minority. We know that law-abiding citizens do not commit violent crimes. We know that criminals will neither obey gun bans nor refrain from turning other deadly instruments to their nefarious purposes. . . . In sum, peaceful societies do not need general gun bans and violent societies do not benefit from them."7

1. John van Kesteren, Pat Mayhew and Paul Nieuwbeerta, "Criminal Victimization in Seventeen Industrialized Countries: Key findings from the 2000 International Crime Victims Survey," the Hague, Ministry of Justice, WODC, Onderzoek en beleid, nr. 187, 2000.

2. A. Travis, "England and Wales Top Crime League," the Guardian, Feb. 23, 2001.

3. David Leppard and Rachel Dobson, "Murder rate soars to highest for a century," Sunday Times, Oct. 13, 2002.

4. B. Brady and S. Fraser, "Prompted by the Shootings in Germany, Tony Blair Orders Crackdown on Convertible Airguns," Scotsman on Sunday, April 28, 2002.

5. Criminal Justice System website, "Justice for All," CJS White Paper, July 2002. See: http://www.cjsonline.org/library/pdf/CJS_whitepaper.pdf

6. David Kopel, The Samurai, The Mountie, and the Cowboy: Should America Adopt the Gun Controls of Other Democracies?, Prometheus Books, 1992, pp. 431-32.

7. "Gun Laws Around the World: Do They Work?," The American Guardian, Oct., 1997.
Posted: Thu, 16th Jan 2003, 7:53pm

Post 64 of 97

Kid

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People keep quoting our high burgulary figures but these have nothing at all to do with guns. 92% of all burglaries in the uk in the last 5 years have been when no one was home.

What you should be comparing are the violent crime and murder statistics. While our figures are going up they are still less than 10% as many (per person) as the US. Many crime experts here say that the number of violent crimes is not actually rising here at all but that the police are simply stopping more, which is what the figures are based on.

We arn't jealous that we can't have a gun. Most people don't especially want one. Some want one simply for the novelty factor or to make themselves feel big. If the US wasn't a gun culture we wouldn't have the rising problem that we have. Too many morons here want guns cos they think it'll make them some cool gangster rapper or something. It isn't about the government forcing us not to have one when people want guns. Most people simply don't want them here and are happy that we don't have every other moron on the street carrying one. (and america does have at least its fair share of morons razz )

Going on about how its against your rights not to carry a gun is stupid. You may as well say its against your rights not to let you kill people at random.

The hunting argument is also rubbish. Firstly handguns arn't for hunting. Farmers and other people who need them and have a reasonable excuse are allowed shotguns. Many people would also say hunting animals for fun is cruel and inhumane.
Posted: Thu, 16th Jan 2003, 8:02pm

Post 65 of 97

Kid

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Also I just noticed in your blurb that you went on about the government taking away people's handguns. It was never like it is in the states, people were never allowed to carry them or have them hanging about in their homes for protection. There were strict rules. People were only allowed them for use in gun clubs. I don't know if you actually realised this or you were assuming it was like it is in America.

Oh the other thing is that guns simply arn't around here. Most criminals who would happily use a gun if they were freely available can't because they arn't. Only people that go to extreme lengths can get hold of them.
Posted: Thu, 16th Jan 2003, 8:12pm

Post 66 of 97

anonymous

And the links to your facts are...........? As I thought, your stats are opinions, I gave you credible researched studies and history. Your opinion is admirable but it lacks sustance. biggrin

Peace
Posted: Thu, 16th Jan 2003, 8:22pm

Post 67 of 97

Kid

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No you didn't you quoted some random paragraphs out of context, some of which are irrelevant and one which doesn't even have anything to do with the subject. Then quoted a bunch of references to make it look as if what you are saying has some credibility even though it simply doesn't.

My reference for those stats are the BBC and the Times newspaper, I don't remeber the exact articles. Go do a search if your that interested.
Posted: Thu, 16th Jan 2003, 8:28pm

Post 68 of 97

anonymous

"No you didn't you quoted some random paragraphs out of context..."

You obviously didn't read it but if you did, let me refresh your memory..................TADA



1. John van Kesteren, Pat Mayhew and Paul Nieuwbeerta, "Criminal Victimization in Seventeen Industrialized Countries: Key findings from the 2000 International Crime Victims Survey," the Hague, Ministry of Justice, WODC, Onderzoek en beleid, nr. 187, 2000.

2. A. Travis, "England and Wales Top Crime League," the Guardian, Feb. 23, 2001.

3. David Leppard and Rachel Dobson, "Murder rate soars to highest for a century," Sunday Times, Oct. 13, 2002.

4. B. Brady and S. Fraser, "Prompted by the Shootings in Germany, Tony Blair Orders Crackdown on Convertible Airguns," Scotsman on Sunday, April 28, 2002.

5. Criminal Justice System website, "Justice for All," CJS White Paper, July 2002. See: http://www.cjsonline.org/library/pdf/CJS_whitepaper.pdf

6. David Kopel, The Samurai, The Mountie, and the Cowboy: Should America Adopt the Gun Controls of Other Democracies?, Prometheus Books, 1992, pp. 431-32.

7. "Gun Laws Around the World: Do They Work?," The American Guardian, Oct., 1997.
Posted: Thu, 16th Jan 2003, 8:39pm

Post 69 of 97

Kid

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Writing it twice doesn't make it any more impressive or relevant.
Posted: Thu, 16th Jan 2003, 8:47pm

Post 70 of 97

Tasblades

Force: 220 | Joined: 26th May 2002 | Posts: 52

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"Many people would also say hunting animals for fun is cruel and inhumane."

Ahh, if you poke long enough you will get the true reason for gun control.

This is the real reason liberals hate guns as it has nothing to do with crime, it has to do with enforcing their beliefs on others such as animal rights. True colors indeed. If you don't like to hunt, that's fine but that's your belief not mine..I can tolerate you as long as you don't try to enforce it on me. biggrin The next thing you do will be to tell me what religion to practice.

Peace
Posted: Thu, 16th Jan 2003, 8:58pm

Post 71 of 97

anonymous

wow this is a hot topic wink
Posted: Thu, 16th Jan 2003, 9:05pm

Post 72 of 97

Tasblades

Force: 220 | Joined: 26th May 2002 | Posts: 52

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U.K. Reports Big Increase in Gun Crime
1/14/2003



In the 12 months to April 2002, the United Kingdom experienced a 35-percent jump in gun crimes, the BBC reported Jan. 12.

Last year, there were 9,974 incidents involving firearms in England and Wales, an increase from the previous year's 7,362. The biggest increases were found in large, metropolitan areas.

Tory leader Iain Duncan Smith said that the rise in gun crime is tied to the "huge increase in the drugs culture that's taking place in the cities that's literally ripping apart the inner cities, breaking this fabric down."

The statistics follow a recently announced plan by the government to tighten firearms laws.

"The only word for this is failure," said Oliver Letwin, Conservative shadow home secretary. "The government's response of knee-jerk reactions and initiatives is not working."

Overall, crime in the United Kingdom rose 9. 3 percent.




Stats straight from your precious BBC. See how your opinion crumbles when the truth is out there?

Quote facts not your opinion. Your opinion is worth about the same thing as toilet tissue. wink

www.jointogether.org/gv/news/summaries/reader/0,2061,556101,00.html

Just in case you need the link.

Peace
Posted: Thu, 16th Jan 2003, 9:22pm

Post 73 of 97

Kid

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Hehehe your responses amuse me more each time.

Its got nothing to do with hunting really its just not a good reason to be able to have a gun. I don't agree with hunting myself but I'm not that bothered that I actively try and stop it.

The reason I don't want people to have guns is because I don't want to have to worry about being shot by some moron. This is less likely to happen if the morons don't have the guns in the first place. This is blatently obvious to most people, it only seems to be Americans who have different ideas about it.

Your stats are also bogus because gun offenses includes a wide range of things from airguns fired in public to full on shootings to people using a fake to hold up a place.
Posted: Thu, 16th Jan 2003, 10:04pm

Post 74 of 97

Tasblades

Force: 220 | Joined: 26th May 2002 | Posts: 52

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"Your stats are also bogus because gun offenses includes a wide range of things from airguns fired in public to full on shootings to people using a fake to hold up a place."

Your opinion ..again. Now that is amazing. Mine was straight from the folks you claim to "quote" The BBC. I thought they didn't have ANY guns? Oh they have a lot of BB guns huh!! lol Now that's "bogus" B.S. and you CAN"T prove it. You are going to be worse than a one legged man in a but kicking contest trying to prove that.


You do know what toilet tissue is used for correct? biggrin

Peace
Posted: Thu, 16th Jan 2003, 10:25pm

Post 75 of 97

Tasblades

Force: 220 | Joined: 26th May 2002 | Posts: 52

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More from the BBC

Violence Increases In Wake of British Gun Ban
A couple of years ago we reported on Britain's draconian Firearms Act of 1997, which tightened that country's already-severe gun laws and virtually disarmed the population, making armed self-defense illegal.

Now the mainstream British media is reporting a massive new wave of crime, including gun crimes.

On January 18, BBC News Online reported "a huge surge in muggings": "The figures for recorded offences, a blow to the government's anti-crime crusade, show the first rise in England and Wales for six years. The number of robberies - most of them muggings - increased by 19% in the year to September 1999 compared with a fall of nearly 6% over the previous 12 months."

The headline for a January 16 London Times article was: "Killings Rise As 3 Million Illegal Guns Flood Britain." Total crime in London rose by 22% for the year September 1998-1999, and armed crime rose 10%. Gun prohibition has also created a massive new black market smuggling in powerful guns for criminals.

The January 14th Manchester Guardian reported that city is now being called "Gunchester." Police -- who are usually unarmed -- report some gangs are now armed with fully automatic weapons and that guns are "almost a fashion accessory" among young street criminals.

The June 20, 1999 Sunday Express reported: "In recent months there have been a frightening number of shootings in Britain's major cities, despite new laws banning gun ownership. Our investigation established that guns are available through means open to any criminally-minded individual." The government's response? Plans being discussed include: further increasing penalties for gun possession; cracking down on drugs; creating a national DNA database of both innocent and convicted citizens; and restricting knives and air guns.

(Sources: papers as named; BBC News Online; op-ed by Michael S. Brown)

BB Guns? lol No guns? Yeah.

You want more?

Peace
Posted: Thu, 16th Jan 2003, 11:46pm

Post 76 of 97

sidewinder

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I think you need to face he facts Kid. Banning guns in your country didn't make it a swell and rosy place. Banning the guns more likely made the crime rate rise, as the facts show. If you want to refute this stuff, you need to show us a few sources. I know statistics can be bent, but you can't really argue against them when they repeatedly point towards a conclusion.

I think Xcession puts it best. Gun control in America would screw things up more than gun control in Britain.

Our country is too big to regulate illigal materials well, as shown by drugs. banning guns wouldn't lower the gun count among criminals nearly as effectively as you supposedly say it does in the UK.

Xcession, I think you mentioned that if more people owned guns, they would use 'em whenever they had an argument to settle. In Florida, the conceal and carry law was passed some number of years ago. People predicted that this combined with road rage would send shootings through the roof. It didn't. Since the law was passed, there were two incidents of shootings on the road, with someone who had a conceal and carry permit. Since then, one of those shootings were ruled as self-defense.

Allowing the majority of people to own guns generally lead to large amounts of accidental shootings by dumb people. It didn't take a whole lot of brains to figure out that you can't be an idiot around a gun, and the idiots out there who ignored safety alltogether are likely dead, in jail, or no longer own a gun as it's been taking away by the police. The rest of them likely fall into the criminal category. Keep in mind, also, that plastic buckets are more dangerous to kids than guns.


Do you want to know another reason why i don't want our guns to be confiscated by the government?


I ask you this: What man-made thing has killed the largest number of people? (the time range goes from beginning of history to now)




The answer, my freind, is Governments. The mass slaughter by Hitler and Stalin, the famines caused by Mugabe and Communist China, the people killed when we dropped the atomic bombs, the genocides in Albania, and by the warlords in Africa. The list goes on.

A population that owns guns is a population that a corrupt government is afraid of. I find that a good thing. Keep in mind that even though America is one of the newest countries around, we have one of the longest running systems of government and stability on the planet
Posted: Thu, 16th Jan 2003, 11:55pm

Post 77 of 97

Xcession

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This is stupid.

A bunch of news cutting that show we have escalating crime figures, and link the blackmarket sales of guns to increasing crime, don't however prove anything about whether or not the ALLOWANCE of guns would make any difference.

We've had gun prohibition for many many decades...yet the crime figures you are cutting and pasting are simply for a handful of recent years. If guns have been equally as banned for the last 100 years, why the recent sudden rise?

The news articles you are quoting all contain figures for increases in crime 3 years ago! this new bill of parliament was passed recently, we're talking weeks. "The statistics follow a recently announced plan by the government to tighten firearms laws." This means that the statistics were released after the plan was announced, not that the statistics have been discovered as a result of it! The results are from research between 99 and 2001...they aren't a consequence of firearms laws being tightenned in the last couple of months.

Sidewinder, you are actually agreeing with me to a degree - which is refreshing - at least some people are intelligent enough to see both sides of the coin. Your point about road-rage killing is interesting...but completely devoid of ethics. Justifying the right for stupid people to bear arms because they (to paraphrase) only end up killing eachother is not a good enough reason i'm afriad! lol. I hate stupid people as much as the next man, in fact probaly more than most, but it doesn't mean a government shouldn'ttry and protect them from their own lack of education.

I think the bottom line is that each of the sides of this arguement can provide perfectly suitable ideas or warped facts to back up their views....but the statistic i'd REALLY like to see, would be ...

...a direct comparison between firearm-related crimes per-head in america (not airguns), and likewise in england.

Per head, would make it a percentage, so quoting ratios about how often guns are used in america for defense would be completely irrelevant. This arguement is about whether gun control is justified or not. Not whether owning guns is useful.

If we have a smaller percentage of firearms crimes per head, it would stand to reason that its because we control our firearms. Perhaps not...but its a sensible conclusion. Remember its a percentage, so it doesn't make any different (before you get all sound-bitey on me) how few people we have living in england compared to america.

THAT is a statistic i'd like to see. Oh, and i'd like to see them coming from an organisation that aren't able to affect ellectons and likely to be affected by biase.

Untill i have those figures on my screen, i don't really have the energy to argue this any more. So far i haven't seen one convincing arguement to make me think firearms freedom is justified, please provide me with one, i really would be genuinely interested to see a flawless arguement for the right to bear arms (based on the statistics i want).

Last edited Fri, 17th Jan 2003, 12:06am; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Fri, 17th Jan 2003, 12:05am

Post 78 of 97

er-no

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Why don't we just ban freedom and everything else while we are at it.

Philosophy lessons suck.

I got told today that no matter what we do and what we decide in life we are never EVER going to make our 'OWN' decision that is completely self decided.

cry

Who cares about guns, you never die from a bullet, you die from a cardiac arrest and the likes...
Posted: Fri, 17th Jan 2003, 12:51am

Post 79 of 97

Tasblades

Force: 220 | Joined: 26th May 2002 | Posts: 52

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X, do you need to know what your OPINION is compaired too? Toilet tissue ring a bell?

My copies and pastings were from articles as recent as the 14th, um thats two days ago. by your media. OH and gun control started before yesterday in Britain, is that a new angle you want to challenge?

Oh yea I would agree that the argument is over.

Peace
Posted: Fri, 17th Jan 2003, 1:13am

Post 80 of 97

Tasblades

Force: 220 | Joined: 26th May 2002 | Posts: 52

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http://reason.com/0211/fe.jm.gun.shtml

http://www.crimereduction.gov.uk/statistics26.htm

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/page.cfm?objectid=12518284&method=full&siteid=50143

Look at the publish dates, although you have been in "gun control" for several years, it still hasn't helped and never will. Want more? wink

Peace
Posted: Fri, 17th Jan 2003, 1:52am

Post 81 of 97

Tasblades

Force: 220 | Joined: 26th May 2002 | Posts: 52

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http://www.guncontrolnetwork.org/un_report.htm

I tell you what, just show us a recent article, either of you, that shows a decrease in gun violence in your country since you "removed them" and I'll go watch "Outlaw Josey Wales". wink

Peace
Posted: Fri, 17th Jan 2003, 1:56am

Post 82 of 97

dirtygeeza

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1st point..
Last thing we all need is a full scale forum war.
Simon Says Shut the F*uk up. This is precisely what this forum needs. There are way too many deep throats in here always eager to please. The f*uk is that about?

2nd point ...
I'd rather be f*cked up the arse by a burglar in my own house (where you got this information from i'll never know!) and have my tv, vcr and computer nicked; than never see another day again.
Dunno who wrote this but I salute you. Its the funniest thing ive heard this year. The kinda thing I'd say only i'd be the one pumping the burglars ass saying "thy shault not steal modafucka".
lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol

3rd point...

Nuff respect goes out to Tarn for starting up this thread in the first place. I must admit, i am suprised that its spiralled outa control and turned out this way. Good shite.

Furthermore, u gotta give it up for "KID". He single handedly fought to the death. Took out alot of mans still and backed up his statements with facts. Nuff respect (lol)

As for my opinion about this, lets just say that for a country to elect an uneducated spastic as a president says it all. However what i find very disturbing is for a prime minister of his class to allow himself to be controlled like a f*uking "thunderbird" by a president of such calibre surely shows how much of a tosser he is as well. Kinda proves my theory about deep throats eager to please. See how stupid it looks from an outsider's point of view? Dont do it.

On a real serious note though, if peeps genuinely believe that the states dont have a problem with gun related crimes/deaths then GOD really must SAVE AMERICA, and i really mean that. Its like being an alchoholic and not admitting that you have a problem.

Last edited Fri, 17th Jan 2003, 2:37am; edited 3 times in total.

Posted: Fri, 17th Jan 2003, 2:03am

Post 83 of 97

sidewinder

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Funny how you say the president is uneducated when he graduated from college with better grades than Gore. Then again, I didn't think either of them would be that great, and Bush was the lesser of two evils.

At least he's brought some dignity nd respect into the office, unlike Bubba.
Posted: Fri, 17th Jan 2003, 2:54am

Post 84 of 97

anonymous

"Dunno who wrote this but I salute you. Its the funniest thing ive heard this year. The kinda thing I'd say only i'd be the one pumping the burglars ass saying "thy shault not steal modafucka".
lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol"

Well we know what we have here don't we?


"Furthermore, u gotta give it up for "KID". He single handedly fought to the death. Took out alot of mans still and backed up his statements with facts. Nuff respect (lol)"

UUUUUUM what facts? All opinions, I provided the facts...click the links if you dare. Now find X guy and maybe trade some fudge. wink

Peace
Posted: Fri, 17th Jan 2003, 3:04am

Post 85 of 97

Tasblades

Force: 220 | Joined: 26th May 2002 | Posts: 52

Gold Member

Sorry that was me, I was logged out.

Anyway for one that don't want to turn this into a forum war, you sure have a big mouth and a big rear from reading that last post. We know that you are an obvious liberal with a limp wrist so if you want to prove the gun debate otherwise, provide the evidence or as I have told your "buddies" wink or go play house. Your just another little dog with a big mouth, a lot of bark and no bite. Provide something to back your claims, as I have, or go lick a toilet.

Peace
Posted: Fri, 17th Jan 2003, 3:27am

Post 86 of 97

dirtygeeza

Force: 80 | Joined: 24th Feb 2002 | Posts: 84

Member

"Tasblades".... Well we know what we have here don't we?
takes one to know one

go lick a toilet.
WOW, Thats poor. Shows the level of your intelligence
lol lol lol biggrin
Posted: Fri, 17th Jan 2003, 8:25am

Post 87 of 97

anonymous

ugh, damn tasblades...you just keep on churning out the same crap dontcha....

proving that england has crime is irrelevant. Proving that england has gun crime is irrelevant...

you are still to prove that england has less than america, and that it is without a shadow of a doubt, becaose of our gun laws.

stoopid redneck. Just coz u repeat yourself and use modern news articles, doesn't mean that the news articles don't refer to old statistics.

pfft, wake up yank!
Posted: Fri, 17th Jan 2003, 11:31am

Post 88 of 97

Kid

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Tasblades wrote:

A couple of years ago we reported on Britain's draconian Firearms Act of 1997, which tightened that country's already-severe gun laws and virtually disarmed the population, making armed self-defense illegal.
If you actually knew anything you would know this is rubbish. You keep talking about we used to carry guns to protect ourselves and in 1997 we suddenly couldn't. This is not the case.

WE WERE NEVER ALLOWED GUNS FOR PROTECTION. Get that through your thick head. The statistics you quote are part of a rise in gun crime that caused the laws to be tightened not that it was caused by them.

The ones in 1997 only stopped people in gun clubs from having guns not your everyday person from carrying them for protection.

The recent ones which we are discussing are only from the past couple of weeks and simply making enforcing the existing law easier.

The rise in gun crimes here has nothing at all to do with gun laws but the influence from the US gun culture. If the US didn't widely have guns we would not be having this problem now.
Posted: Fri, 17th Jan 2003, 11:46am

Post 89 of 97

Tasblades

Force: 220 | Joined: 26th May 2002 | Posts: 52

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Anonymos, (amazing) the point is not to prove we have less crime in America but that your gun laws haven't helped. Is it illiteracy or did you read it at all? Just shows that being subject to a queen has nothing to do with intelligence. Find you a seat next to Elton John and sing "good buy to yellow brick road" and then go have tea with the queen...it still won't help your perseptive skills. Responding to a thick headed Brit has nothing to do with "churning crap" no more than your response does. If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen wink

We didn't start fighting gun control yesterday in America, your arguements have been tried and failed many times in the past. British criminals are no different than American criminals, you just have to accept that. Humans are the same all over the world, the separation of water doesn't make a difference. The only thing that I have repeated is your country's own statistics, just face it.....stupid

dirtygeeza said, "takes one to know one."

What a playground comeback! Um Your name says it all....lol wink

peace
Posted: Fri, 17th Jan 2003, 11:51am

Post 90 of 97

Tasblades

Force: 220 | Joined: 26th May 2002 | Posts: 52

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Kid, do you want me to get articles prior to last week? Deal with it, you are talking in circles and repeating irrelivate b.s. Your rants have nothing to do with the facts. Again find something real and show it to me. Find an article than says gun crime has declined since 1997. Do it or shut up.

Peace
Posted: Fri, 17th Jan 2003, 3:09pm

Post 91 of 97

Kid

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No one is saying that gun crime wouldn't exist with gun laws but the rate of rising crime will decrease. If you think that gun laws are supposed to lead to a decrease in the number of gun crimes in order to have worked then you are a fool. Crime always increases, just the rate of increase can be minimised. Our gun laws slow the increase in gun crime, we could be well on our way to being as bad as the US if we didn't have those laws in force. Each tightening has been because of a particular incident which could have been stopped if the specific measures were in place. Each change puts those measures in place and stops those problems. The two tightenings of the law have been as a response to incidents involving licensed owners of guns or ones thought to have been replicas. These have nothing to do with criminals illegally having guns except that it makes them easier to identify.

Repeatedly giving stats which are only relevant to gun crime and not to the gun laws also doesn't prove anything. You don't actually seem to understand what our laws were and are now but base your 'facts' on your society suddenly not being allowed to have guns.
Posted: Fri, 17th Jan 2003, 3:16pm

Post 92 of 97

Kid

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Plus can some one tell Tasblades what a liberal is. He keeps going on about them as if they are the anti gun nazi's.

Also I must point out that in general all of Tasblades facts are wrong but with the odd quote stuck in the middle of them to make them seem as if they're credible.

Earlier he said that we were Catholics!

This thread would make a lot more sense if you got rid of Tasblades posts since most of what he write is toilet tissue. (as he says razz )
Posted: Fri, 17th Jan 2003, 3:36pm

Post 93 of 97

Joshua Davies

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Gun crime probably hasn't declined since 1997, but it was never high in the first place as guns have never been an obsession in the UK and they are not something you could get hold of easily.

These gun laws (and the one about carrying blades over 3") are not really created to reduce crime, but as a reaction to some nasty incident or murder that captures the tabloids attention. It is an effective way for the government to show the public it is fixing situations without having to spend much money. It is the way our government normally reacts to situations that capture the publics/tabloids attention.
Posted: Fri, 17th Jan 2003, 3:59pm

Post 94 of 97

Xcession

Force: 42802 | Joined: 21st Mar 2001 | Posts: 1964

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ok, tasblades...read this really really carefully.

The statistics you are giving us about our own country....yes i am aware they are about the UK.....are about separate things.

[this is not my opinion, this is a statement of fact about your posts]

In the statistics you quote that ARE about gun crime, they are from several years back, way before the recent heavy-handedness was implemented by the government. Therefore, using old data as proof of a far more recent action is just irrelevant. You don't use statistics about 1950's cars to say that cars in 2002 are way quicker than last year...its just not comparable.

[this is another statement, not an opinion. I am explaining how old data cannot be scientifically used to correlate new findings of this type]

In the statistics you quote that AREN'T just about gun crime, showing that we have more muggings than you doesn't say anything about whether or not gun laws work.

[this is not my opinion either. This is fact. The statistics are not about gun laws, they are about crime in general]

Please explain to me how telling us how many muggings and rapes we had last year has got anything to do with gun laws working.

[this isn't an opionion, this is asking you for some information, please]

Your FACTS are largely irrelevant.

Listen tasblades...all you have to do, is give us categorical proof that our lack of gun laws hasn't helped our crime rates.

When you provide that...we'll provide our articles about decline since 97. (which we won't be able to find, because it hasn't...not that it makes any difference whether it has or not)
Posted: Fri, 17th Jan 2003, 6:10pm

Post 95 of 97

sidewinder

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Xcession: You're saying that there is no correlation between your muggings/rape and gun laws.

This is where the self-defense argument shows up! The idea is that if you ban guns, crime goes up (or goes up faster, if you live in the UK wink ). We've showed you facts about how as guns are banned, crime increases, and how when citizens are allowed to carry arms, crime decreases. This is one of the main arguments against gun control, and for more gun ownership.

Kid:

The rise in gun crimes here has nothing at all to do with gun laws but the influence from the US gun culture. If the US didn't widely have guns we would not be having this problem now.
Oh, I see now! It's our fault that you have gun crime! I guess it has nothing to do with your police, legal system, or lack of self protection in the form of firearms!


You know, you guys talk about how your gun control laws decrease the increase in the rate of crime. tard tard tard

Over here, steps are usually taken to DECREASE crime. period. As I said before, situations have shown how as a larger chunk of the population owns guns, crime DECREASES.


Where do the politicians get off saying that I can't own a gun, when I have broken no laws. Instead of making it illegal for citizens to own guns, why don't they maake it illegal for criminals to own guns.

Oh, wait...

THEY ALREADY DO!

They just suck at enforcing the laws, and handing out proper punishments that deter crime.

That is the problem!
Posted: Fri, 17th Jan 2003, 6:28pm

Post 96 of 97

Kid

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You havent shown that having guns decreases crime at all. All you've shown is that you have less percentage other crime of your total crime. We still have lower total crime than you. We have more burglaries compared to shootings but we still have less of either than you do.

Plus you keep going on about how you're only taking away the rights of the innocent. We had several incidents involving people who had firearms legally which prompted the tightening in laws.
Posted: Sat, 18th Jan 2003, 2:40pm

Post 97 of 97

Tasblades

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.............I'm still waiting for documented proof.........

..........nothing as I thought......

You sound like Bill Clinton trying to tell me what sex or isn't lol. Twist it, stretch it, call it what you will, you have been givin the facts and you have talked in circles. You have been asked to show proof and CAN'T. One minute there are no guns, then you admit it but it was club gun owners then it was bb gun crime to America smuggling real guns. Make up your mind, it's either no guns and bb gun crime or it's club guns and American smugglers!

Everyone of those stats are from your country's media...not mine. go explain your theorys and opinions to them not us.

Kid would you like a definition of LIBERAL as you seem to want someone to explain it to me? smile

Peace