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Mel Gibson's new film "The Passion"

Posted: Sat, 25th Jan 2003, 1:11am

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Greyo

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http://us.imdb.com/Title?0335345

A link to Gibson's new film. A film about Jesus Christ that will be in the original arabic etc language with no subtitles (check the trivia section on imdb).

I was wondering how many of you will be going to see this even if you cannot understand the dialogue.

I will see it because if Gibson does it proporly it could be an awesome film done in the true spirit of motion picture. After all film is about showing not telling, if u want to be told a story go see a play.[/i]
Posted: Sat, 25th Jan 2003, 1:18am

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Ice_Man

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I'm sorry, but I just can't picture Monica Belluci as Mary Magdalene. . .

I do, however, think that James Caviezel would make a good Jesus
Posted: Sat, 25th Jan 2003, 1:58am

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Sollthar

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I won't go to see this film. Not because of the language, but because as an Atheist I don't care about Jesus. It just dosn't interest me.

I will see it when it's on DVD maybe. But definately not in the cinema.
Posted: Sat, 25th Jan 2003, 3:31am

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Ice_Man

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I sure hope you're right, sollthar. . .
Posted: Sat, 25th Jan 2003, 8:31pm

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Kram1563

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Hmmm interesting.................of course i think it woud be good to have it in english, but i agree if done right, it could look and be very good, we shall see in the not too distant future
Posted: Sat, 25th Jan 2003, 9:35pm

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Two Gunned Saint

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They could at least subtitle it. Seems like it could be a little bit "This is about Jesus so you have to enjoy it, we won't tell you what's happening 'cos it's about the son of God and you should know. If you don't like it you're a philstine" to me. Standardly pretentious. Although it's a little early to tell.

I don't think the strength of a film is in the dialogue a film with none at all could be as good as a film with some. However if there is some and they won't tell you what they're saying it'd just be irritating.

If I went to see it at the cinema, I have the horrible feeling I'd leave and go and see the Jackie Chan film going on next door. (Well the initials are the same, J.C.)
Posted: Sat, 25th Jan 2003, 9:54pm

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Sollthar

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Yeah, and Jackie Chan is much cooler than Jesus.... biggrin
Posted: Sat, 25th Jan 2003, 9:59pm

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Two Gunned Saint

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Good one. +1.
Posted: Sat, 25th Jan 2003, 11:15pm

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Greyo

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ever heard the phrase actions speak louder than words, that sums up cinema for me.

When ever i write a script i always try to write a films that people can understand without sounds. Dialogue then is basically just a tool to add an extra dimension of depth to characters, film.

i myself am anti-religion and would be happy to see the end of organised religions. If a person wants to worship god or whatever thats fine and they can do that within their heart. But i don't see why they need to go to churches or be a part of an organisation to do that. Religion is the biggest killer.

That said i still love the stories within the bible and am looking forwards to this film. I'd be highly dissapointed if it had subtitles.
Posted: Sat, 25th Jan 2003, 11:58pm

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X

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Two-gunned: I saw an interview with Mel Gibson and that wasn't what he intended at all. I'll try to find out some quotes and post it but that wasn't the intent.

Solthar: When ever someones has said something about you I've tried to stick up for you so please don't take the low road and try to get a rise out of people who do think Jesus is Christ. I know you can argue that Jackie Chan is cooler but you know that is tantamount to saying to someone "Your mother is...." it is just trying to provoke a reaction so let us please try to respect each others opinions.

What Mel Gibson was trying to show people is what Jesus went through in his last days. The Bible said that Christ was so badly beaten that you could not recognize him. Gibson said it was going to be very violent and he wanted the pictures to tell the story and for it to be as realistic as possible.

Religion also isn't the biggest killer. Hate and greed are. Do some people use religion, sure but saying we sould get rid of it is like saying lets ban science because it made the bomb.
Posted: Sun, 26th Jan 2003, 12:10am

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Sollthar

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Sorry, I wasn't trying to provoke anyone here... It just seemed funny when twogunned mentioned the initials of JC and JC...

I do respect other peoples opinion of course, I always do! I'm just never making a secret out of mine and so it's no secret to anyone who knows me that my opinion about religions is... hmm... let's say "very strong".
But if that gave to impression that I'm trying to provoke, I'm sorry, I'm not.
Posted: Sun, 26th Jan 2003, 1:53am

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Greyo

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I didn't say get rid of religion I said get rid of organised religions. Why do u need to be a catholic, protestant, jew to name a few to love God or Jesus or whatever.

Why do u need to go to church etc to worship him. Does not going to church mean you love ur god less. religion should be personal.

All i am saying is let people worhsip god in there hearts and actions and not through oganisations.

But lets not turn this into a religious argument. yeah X u are completly right about the fiilm. What happened to christ, i not religious but do belived he lived, according to the bible was horrific and emotionally charged.

Sometimes there are scenes in films that u watch it without dialogue and its hits u hard because of the reality adn violence that u are witnessing. it is these moments that Gibson is trying to recreate in the film and i say good luck to him. I for one will go and see
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 4:41am

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Ice_Man

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greyo - there's nothing wrong with organized religion. . . everyone has a different idea about religion, all organized religion is is a grouping of people with the same opinion celebrating their faith. there is nothing wrong with that. if you don't wish to join with a group of people that feel the same about god (or a god) then don't.
you cannot get rid of organized religions, because it is part of human nature to gather in numbers to discuss common ideals and beliefs. as an example, I offer up you. you are here to discuss film and cinema and special effects because you have an interest in them, and this is where you know you can talk to other people with the same interests.

people have been beaten, even killed for their faith. when someone seeks a relationship with a diety for the first time, it can be a scary thing. it makes it a lot easier to do if there is a group that can help and support you along your path. going to a church with a group of people can help provide that support

I don't condone how political a lot of major religious organizations have become. I also don't agree with the fanatacism that some religions seem to embrace. stand up for your faith, but it's never necessary to take it that far. people have a right to other ideals and beliefs.

how can you claim to not be religious, but write here slamming organized religion, and then saying that you believed that Jesus lived?! the only proof we have that he lived was in a product of organized religion! because that's all the bible is.
it's good that you agree that people can worship the god of their choice. why then does it become bad for many people to do that at the same time? I'm with X on this one, religion is not the biggest killer. show me a religion that embraces killing, and I'll metamorphasize into Mickey Mouse
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 5:11am

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jirwin

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Greyo, why can't you just study film and have fun filming by your self watch the films you make by your self with no one in your films except yourself?...why do you have to come to this site and join with others that share the same excitement for film that you do? I mean, it's the same thing right?

I'm replying to your comment about why cant we just get rid of organized religion...Whenever someone uses the term organized religion, they are obviously referring to the political aspects of religions. I disagree with a lot of things about the political aspects of religion but to tell someone to worship God by yourself and find God by yourself is a totally ridiculous statement. It's no where near the same as worshiping with others that share the same views as you. The bible encourages fellowship and learning from eachother many many times...

Okay, i'll leave my soap box... X and Ice_Man very insightful comments.
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 11:53am

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Sollthar

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There is always a huge difference between written rules and lived rules. You're right, not one single religion encourages killing. Christian religions, islamic religions, buddhistic relidgions and even devilprayers don't encourage killing. In all their religios books you can read that "killing is wrong".

Still the simple truth looks different. Christian history is full of slaughter, murder and destruction - all for god. Rome... Crusaders... Inquisition... Witchburnings... And even today you don't have to travel far to still see fighting (eg Ireland)...
Or have a look at Afghanistan. Where people are told to make suicideattacks to come to heaven with 10 virgins on their side (wich isn't in the Koran actually).


Don't get me wrong. As a european, I was raised with christian ideas of moral and I stand fully behind the christian Ideas - concerning the ethic ideas... But not behind a god.


But yet I believe one most have the tolerance for other peoples beliefs. But no blind tolerance. As all things in world religions are good and dangerous in the same moment. And that is what makes it so difficult.
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 1:19pm

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Greyo

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I’m big enough to admit when I could be slightly wrong about something. I can see ur point about this community being like a religion and actually from that point of view I can see why people would want to go to church or whatever they choose.

I suppose in a way I am throwing all religions into one barrel and calling it organised religion and then taking the actions of a few and associating it with all religions.

I believe almost everything in the bible existed at one point in time but was then taken by people and re-written into stories that had religious meanings. Like Jesus might have thought himself the son of god and I believe he might have but that doesn't mean I have to believe he was or in god.

jirwin yeah I suppose I do really mean the political side, the side that killed people in Ireland or Palestine or anything sollthar said. This is something I truly think needs to be stopped but how could you do that?

I hope I haven't offended anyone with my comments and if you want to go to church and spend time worshipping god then good for you. I have to admire people who are dedicated and passionate about anything. But god is not for me and it’s hard to distinguish whom religion is far when u turns on the news to see all the killings around the world that can be from various religious groups.

But hey I’ve actually change a couple of my views due to the last few posts so there is hope for me yet no? smile
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 1:30pm

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jirwin

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I just want to say that true, look at the crusades, look at all the other times that people kill in the name of God....All of that was not endorsed by God... A lot of the crap that christians do now in the name of God is totally ridiculous...just look at Jerry Fallwell. The man makes me want poke out my eyeballs.
The thing is, is that People in this world are sinful, they couldn't even touch the very base of wisdom that the God I worship has and they (and when i say they, i'm talking about me too) are not worthy in his sight. It's human's sinful nature that leads humans away from God's will, not God's commandments that lead people away from his will. Don't make that confusion.
don't look at the word religion so subjectively.
I could go on but i'll stop
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 1:37pm

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Greyo

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http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101030127-409570,00.html

about the film
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 2:13pm

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Sollthar

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The point is (simply put): What GOD wants is absolutely unimportant.
What is important is what human beeings do, what actually happens. I don't give anything about a god that preaches love if those who worship him bring death (not all of them off course).


To me, the bible is nothing more but the oldest fairytale humankind knows. It has great stories and preaches great values, no doubt about that. But I don't blieve in one single atom that something like a "god" could actually exist in reality.
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 2:49pm

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Greyo

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did anyone in the uk see the documentry where they proved that the story of moses actually could have happened at the correct time through scientific explanations.

They explained everything from the dead cows to the parting of the red sea but they couldn't explain the death of all the first born.

It was a very interesting program which help me realise that perhaps all that happened in the bible was true but through the years been remade (in hollywood remake style) to make a more exciting and meaningful story.
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 3:16pm

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jirwin

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May or may not be important to you now, but when you die? It may be a little more important. Especially if you are wrong and God really does exist and he really did create everything that you see around you and that if it wasn't for him you wouldn't be looking at this website right now. THAN, that might make it a little more important for you to believe in him.

But, we won't know that until we die right? so this argument is pointless except to open eachother's eyes to the other's views. I just want to let you know that you may think that believing in God and seeking him through the bible and through life is unimportant but I can tell you that I was like you once, I didn't believe in God, I thought it was pointless, stupid, and I didn't like organized religion. I was saved, I believe in him now through countless miracles and it being so obvious to me in my life that now I realize just how important it really is.

But we aren't going to get anywhere with this argument so we might as well stop although it is an amusing argument
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 3:33pm

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Sollthar

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Yes, if I would ever stand in front of god that would be interesting. I would want him to answer a lot of questions... smile


Yeah, I always like discussing. And to this point every discussion has brouht my further. (escpecially further to the opinion there can't be a god) smile
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 3:35pm

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Sollthar

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This is a topic about a movie anyway... smile


Oh.. and since somesaid it's going to be violent I may even see it... i loved Braveheart... smile
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 3:48pm

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jirwin

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Let's say you were brought before God, What would you ask him?
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 3:57pm

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Greyo

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y did he give csb-digital a gift from teh gods in Alamdv2 smile
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 4:28pm

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Sollthar

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hehe, good one smile


What would I ask him? Well, first I wanted to know why he gave me my brain illness. Why he punishes me.

Then I would want to know whe he doesn't stop killing, pain and suffering on earth even though he is supposed to have almighty power.

Third I would want to know why he gives people a free will to make own decisions but then punishes them later if they don't do what he says.

Then I want to know why he created us. What intension he had with creation all things.


And lastly I want to know if he can create a door he cannot open.
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 4:45pm

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Ice_Man

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read a bible, marco. . . a lot of the answers you seek are in there (not trying to sound cliche, but it's true! illnesses are the spawn of the devil after Adam's fall. God didn't create brain illness, Satan did. God's not punishing you, Satan's trying to make you believe he did to discredit him. it seems to be working)

as for the pain and suffering on earth thing, he did stop it once. with a huge frickin' flood. he also promised he would never do it again. and since human nature is what it is, that's the only way to truly stop pain and suffering : to put us all out of our misery, so to speak.

hypothetically speaking, let's say you were a diety, you created people with the sole purpose of worshipping and praising you. now, to ensure this, you created them without a free will. they are nothing more than mindless zombies who bow and kowtow to you at your whim. it kinda takes the fun out of having people worship you when they have no other choice, doesn't it? so you create them with a free will, where they have the choice to worship you. it becomes extremely gratifying when hundreds of thousands of them choose you to worship, doesn't it?
for the last part of your third question, I'd like to refer to the movie The Boondock Saints, this quote is taken from the final speech in the movie by the McManus brothers :
. . .Do not kill, do not rape, to not steal. These are principles, which every man of every faith can embrace. These are not polite suggestions, these are codes of behavior and those of you that ignore them will pay the dearest cost. . .
the whole of that speech can be found here:
( http://www.theboondocksaints.com/faq.cfm )
if you're interested

but anyway, the point is, he punishes you not because you disobeyed him in particular, but because you did something THAT WAS WRONG!!

as far as why he created us. . . I think I'd ask him that too. sort of one of those existentialist questions . . . "Why are we here?"


and I'm not even going to dignify that last one with a response, now you're just being silly. instead, I'd like to offer you a similar scenario:
you create a time machine, but it took you so long and you wasted so much of your life, that you decided to go back in time to tell yourself not to waste your time doing it. if you didn't build it, then how could you go back in time to tell yourself not to build it, so if you didn't tell yourself not to, then you went ahead and built it, but that means that you'd go back in time to tell yourself not to build it, so you didn't, but then you couldn't go back in time to say not to, so you did. . . etc. etc. etc. etc. . .
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 4:57pm

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moebius

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Damn, I can't believe I've been missing out on all the action!

I think all this has been discussed before, but I'll just reiterate what I said then:

There is no possible philosophical validation for God, so as was said earlier, arguments are fun but ultimately fruitless biggrin

All the questions raised so far have plagued religious philosophy for eons; and there is no resolution in sight. They correspond to the age-old problems commonly known as "The Problem of Evil" and "The Argument from Design". There are always counter-arguments, the greatest being: "God works in mysterious ways i.e. in ways that Man cannot fathom".

biggrin
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 5:02pm

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X

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Solthar,

Let me try to answer a couple of your questions.

Last one first. Lots of things God can't do. Lie, Sin, steal, get lost, kill Himself, etc.... Allmighty doesn't mean can do everything.

First question. Why bad things happen to good people.
The world didn't start out this way. Part of the whole free will thing is that man was free to mess it up and he did. God was free to call of the whole thing then but He didn't. God still is reaching out to us on a one-on-one basis. That is pretty cool considering he has a right to do what ever He feels like.

As for your eplispse... 1. God isn't punishing you. You didn't do anything to be punished that way and He doesn't punish that way. Jesus said that in the Bible when the disciples asked about a blind guy. They said who sinned him or his parents. Jesus said niether. He said we live in a fallen world but that God will use that hurt for good. I saw a show on a little girl who was run over by a car. She grew up to be a very hurt young women but through it all she said that it happened for a reason. She touched many people's lives in a really positive way through it. My old man died when I was 1 month old. I really hated God for that. My Mom had 6 kids! I thought God was a jerk for doing that. But what about my father? He was better off. What about the kids? I think God did a much better job raising us.
Sometimes things just suck. We don't know the reason why. I remember I dated a girl for 5 years and when we broke up I wanted to die more than usual. I was so mad at God. I prayed so hard to get back together with this girl. Looking back on it it was a good thing we broke up. I never would have met my wife! Some of God's greatest gifts are unanswered prayers (Country Song)

As for giving free will and the punishing... that is justice. I give my daughter markers to draw. I say "don't draw on the table, draw on the paper." If she draws on the table (not just once but deliberatly over and over) I HAVE to punish her. If I didn't I would be 1. Just. 2. Doing her any good. God is beyond fair. We get what we deserve. Talk about beyond fair! If I just ask for forgiveness I not only get ALL my sins (past, present and future) forgiven but I get a cool house in heaven.

God created us to have a cool life. He didn't want us to be robots or slaves. God gave us free will and freedom to choose. Everyone chooses to disobey. This results in seperation from God.

Most people try different ways to get back to God. Good Works, Religion, Philosopy, Crack, drugs ......

There is only one way to get back. Christ. Jesus bridges the gap between us and God. All you have to do is say 1. I broke your rules and I am sorry. 2. Want to stop breaking the rules. 3. Believe Jesus is God and ask him to help you.

I hope I don't sound preachy and believe me I would love to just shut up and keep my head down but I care too much about you Solthar to not say anything.
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 5:11pm

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Ice_Man

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hehe! yeah, welcome to the party, moebius!

I absolutely agree with you, there will never be an end resolution to all this debate. It's purely for fun. . .
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 5:11pm

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Sollthar

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These are the answers of believers... I already know those and they are far away from beeing satisfactory.

Oh, and actually the last question is the most important one I'd love to have an answer for. In my opinion it is the most intelligent question one of the most intelligent philosophers has ever created. it is the best logic deductive proof that almighty power is nothing but a fantasy product. Cause no matter what answer you give, it would put an end to your almightiness right away.

That structure you gave me is an interesting paradoxon. but not similar in structure. (But one I'd love discussing about too) smile



1) The devil gave me my illness? Okay. So why didn't god help me? he is supposed to be almighty. So the devil MUSTN'T be a problem for him. if he is, than god is not almighty and I will forgive him for not beeing able to help me. But if he is almighty and didn't do it. I curse him.

2) Not satisfactory. God cannot give us any responsibility. If anythign that happens is his will, then anything bad that happens is his fault. he created us the way we are. if we became different from what he intended us to be, he failed wih the creaton. Blaming the devil for it is weak, cause if god were what he is supposed to be, he could destory him.

3) Same here. If he gives as a pure free will this free will includes the possibility of beeing evil. So it is my right to do bad. My god given right. I cannot hold tons of candys in front of a childs face and then punish it for taking them. if I would, I would be a sadist.



I read the bible. Twice. I'm not the sort of person that critizises something out of blue. When I critisize, I know exactly what I am talking about. smile

Last edited Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 5:18pm; edited 1 times in total.

Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 5:16pm

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Sollthar

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Yes! I agree. Discussions are very interesting, fun and always good to keep your brain running... smile


The world wouldn't be interesting if all had the same beliefs and opinions and I think it is important to always respect other people for what they belief and always beeing aware of this!


"You can only develop in exchange with others" - I think that is pure truth. smile
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 5:44pm

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Greyo

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i think its great that here we are, people who don't belive in god and people who do, having a discussion over the issue without anyone turning nasty or insulting.

Ever post i have read whether negative or positive about god has been done with respect to the other people and with thoughful arguements.

This i think is a wonderful thing that people around the world could learn a lot from.
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 5:50pm

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Ice_Man

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marco, that last one is very much similar in structure. . . they are both hypothetical situations that can have no solution. regardless of which anser to each scenario you favor, it's not correct. there is NO correct answer to either situation. (but it is fun to argue lol )

in response to -

1. in an indirect manner, yes, the devil gave you your illness. you're not exactly giving god any good reasons to help you out though. . .

2. we are exactly how he intended us to be. . . with freedom of choice. that's what he wanted! there's a difference between actively making something happen, and letting things happen. I think something being his 'will' is sort of in the gray area in between. It is your will that the film industry should endure (you don't want it to stop, do you?), so therefore, it is your fault we have shitty movies like Batman & Robin, and Conan the Barbarian, even though you had nothing to do with either.
we can't be different from what he intended us to be, because he intended us to all be different.

3. having a free will DOES NOT give you a get out of jail free card. . . you're right, having a free will does include the possibility of being evil, but we punish those people not out of religious context, but moral context derived of nonreligious means. I don't know about (switzerland? is that where you are? I'll just say Europe) europe, but in America, we consider the seperation of church and state to b very important. our police don't run around with standard issue bibles to beat evil-doers over the head with. why don't you run around killing people? if you're an atheist, then you've no judgement to fear after death? go ahead, slaughter everyone.
why don't you? universal codes of behavior! it's not right to kill people, whether you believe in god, or not. that bit isn't a religious arguement.
as for your candy analogy, I'm not sure I understand the connection. . .


- - - - - - - -
I wasn't assuming that you hadn't read the bible, I'm sorry if that's how it came out. I too, educate myself in the manners of that which I don't hold to be true.


just for anybody's reference out there, I'm not a die-hard christian, catholic, or jew. I prefer to think of myself as a member of a world religion. I believe that everyone on the face of the planet (that practices religion in any form) is all part of the same. the different languages and histories of various cultures just mutated the same world religion into what they are today. if you look at any religion, at it's basis is the same thing : there is a god, we worship him. some sects have thrown their own twists in there : christianity has jesus, muslims have mohammed.
the bible, the torah, and the koran : all the same thing, just different interpretations.

I believe there is a god. I believe that because, I've seen and experienced things that seem to indicate "miracle". I'm not sure I buy that whole "Darwin" theory, so I believe that we were created. I readily admit, I don't know why we were created, or how, or even when. But I do believe that we were. I'm not going to try to convert anyone, as I think that's wrong, too, everyone is entitled to their own opinions. It's not my place to change them, unless they ask me for help in that. Marco, I just hope you're right. . . for your sake.


greyo - no kidding!! they should hold world peace summits in an online forum! lol
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 6:26pm

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Sollthar

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Hehe, yeah. "AlamDV for worldpeace" smile


Hmm... You bring up some very good points! smile


1. Hmmm.. maybe I don't. I never asked him to help me, right. It's just the fact that so many (neither of you did yet, I'm aware of this) said "all that happens is gods will". If I believed in god I would feel kinda tricked...

Point 2 and 3 kind of moprh into one big moral question, wich makes it even more difficult (but more interesting at the same point).
I try to explain where my "problem" is. Of course the free will alone does not give you a "do whatever you want - card". that would be completely wrong. But that thinking is human, because the free will of others is a rule we have no influence and just have to accept.
But let's say in case of the creator of free will... i don't see a point of making the will completely free and still punishing for socalled "wrong" decisions.
If I would be god, I would create a reduced version of free will. I would denay the ability to chose to do bad. It wouldn't make any difference to the human beeings, because they wouldn't be aware that they're will is not entirely free. I just don't see the point in creating rules, but having the power to decide if my creatures go by the rules or not. If I were a pure good creature like god is supposed to by, I wouldn't want to punish anyone. So I would make my rules clear. That is the much nicer way than telling "You can do A or B, but if you do B I burn you" smile



I almost totally agree with your point of view. And I believe your view is very wise and true. I think the only real difference is the fact that we both come to different endconclusions. smile
But still I can fully stand behind most of the points you mentioned and agree. smile


The thing with "miracles" is, that something is only a miracle until it has been explained. smile
If you go back in history you'll find a lot of funny things. People believe lightning is a sign of gods fury. Today we know it isn't more than natural electicity. People believed all the stars are places we're gods live. Today we know they aren't, they're just planets. people thought earth is flat and that you drop at the end of it. Today we know it isn't.
If you take AlamDV back in time and show it to caveman, I bet they believe it's a miracle (uh. it may be anyway... but you know what I mean).

I personally don't believe in miracles. I think "miracle" is just a name we give things we don't understand. And fact is, we may know a lot of things as a whole humanity. But as an individual, people always fall for the silliest things that have been explained centuries ago...
There are a huge amount of things I don't understand and have no explanation for. But that doesn't mean there is none.

(I have lately met a person who believed it was a miracle that those guys on the moon could fly... he had no idea about moons different gravity and of course didn't believe me when I told him)
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 6:57pm

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anonymous

It's simply impossible for any one of us to have the mind of God. The closest we can come is simply to scratch the surface with explanations. Our words fail us in describing God in His holiness. My attempt to explain His tremendous amount of love, grace and mercy would do Him injustice. Had it not been for God, you and I could not walk, talk, breath, or 'do' anything. We are given so much and are expected to give back so little. God, like a Father, a "Daddy", wants to play with and love all His children. He provides for every one of His own. Those that willingly serve Him in recognition of what He has already done for us, He blesses. Those that are hard-hearted and full of 'self' (or other things that take the place of Him alone) He is sovereign and reserves the right to withhold the blessings that would come if you were to serve Him freely on your own.

Living for God is easy. Living a sinless life isn't. And there comes the rub. If I could just live my life as I want to - and nevermind His direction - then (in my mind) life would be "cool." Well, God's barometer is not based upon how I think (or not) about Him. His standard is His own holiness, his perfection. With sin in my life, I can't measure up. Neither can you. The only Advocate we have is in the person of Jesus Christ, God's one and only begotten Son.

It's not my story. It's His story (history). It's just my choice, as it is yours, to receive it and work with it.

Like with any relationship, in order to get the fullness thereof, there must be love. Well folks, God IS love.
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 6:58pm

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Two Gunned Saint

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My cat's name is mittens.
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 7:29pm

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Greyo

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Sollthar - is that a true story about the man not believing u about the moons gravity? smile
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 7:51pm

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Sollthar

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Yes, that is honestly true. I have more of those... smile
I write all of those "sillythings" in a book. It has already26 pages... smile


Hmm... I'm sorry to say that, but what you say Willingservant is actually a perfect example why I don't believe a god exists... that sounds so cheesy it can't be true.
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 8:39pm

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jirwin

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first of all, I don't understand how you (sollthar) can use in your arguments why God does or doesn't do things....Those are the kinds of questions that I have and try to figure out every day of my life but I am a devout christian. The whole brilliance of being a christian to me is that every day I can learn more and more about God through questions and following him. When I find the answers to the questions I ask, My faith only grows stronger.

The mere fact that you refer to God as God and talk about why God does this and why he does that makes it seem like you believe that he exists.

And another thing that strikes me a little off that Iceman was talking about is that Sin doesn't necessarily if at all have to be a reason for doing something wrong. The fact that God "lets" death and destruction go on. That is not the question that any of us can have answered and I can't understand why you feel that this is a main reason in believing that God actually doesn't exist. God uses all kinds of things in our lives whether they be pain and suffering or joyous occasions to help us learn from our mistakes and become wiser because of them. Have you ever met anyone wise (in human terms) who hadn't suffered in their life?

It's strange because for some reason it seems like you are a christian with serious doubts instead of an athiest who wants to Prove that God doesn't exist. I say this because a lot of the questions you have I still seek the answer for.

And for the idea of holding out candy and then not letting them take it... He lets you take it. Where do you think the idea of free will CAME FROM? It's how you deal with yourself after you take it...Hence, the idea of asking for forgiveness for taking the candy. If we could eat as much candy as we wanted and God wanted us to do that...don't you think that we would be spoiled rotten kids? all of us? and we wouldn't be disciplined, we wouldn't be wise, we would just be mindless drones addicted on candy...

wake up dude, discipline is what makes us refined human beings and what separates us from animals.
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 9:13pm

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moebius

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jirwin wrote:

first of all, I don't understand how you (sollthar) can use in your arguments why God does or doesn't do things....Those are the kinds of questions that I have and try to figure out every day of my life but I am a devout christian. The whole brilliance of being a christian to me is that every day I can learn more and more about God through questions and following him. When I find the answers to the questions I ask, My faith only grows stronger.

The mere fact that you refer to God as God and talk about why God does this and why he does that makes it seem like you believe that he exists.

And another thing that strikes me a little off that Iceman was talking about is that Sin doesn't necessarily if at all have to be a reason for doing something wrong. The fact that God "lets" death and destruction go on. That is not the question that any of us can have answered and I can't understand why you feel that this is a main reason in believing that God actually doesn't exist. God uses all kinds of things in our lives whether they be pain and suffering or joyous occasions to help us learn from our mistakes and become wiser because of them. Have you ever met anyone wise (in human terms) who hadn't suffered in their life?

It's strange because for some reason it seems like you are a christian with serious doubts instead of an athiest who wants to Prove that God doesn't exist. I say this because a lot of the questions you have I still seek the answer for.

And for the idea of holding out candy and then not letting them take it... He lets you take it. Where do you think the idea of free will CAME FROM? It's how you deal with yourself after you take it...Hence, the idea of asking for forgiveness for taking the candy. If we could eat as much candy as we wanted and God wanted us to do that...don't you think that we would be spoiled rotten kids? all of us? and we wouldn't be disciplined, we wouldn't be wise, we would just be mindless drones addicted on candy...

wake up dude, discipline is what makes us refined human beings and what separates us from animals.
Very compelling arguments indeed biggrin Problem is, why give human beings free will?
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 9:20pm

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Sollthar

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I am awake, trust me. I am very much awake... smile


I talk like if he would exist because I should supposed to assume he does.
You're right. I have questions I have no answers to. As all human do. But that is not the point. The fact that I still miss some answers does not profe there is a god. I have looked at the socalled answers a god could give me, but I am absolutley unsatisfied with this...

There are to many things I have to simply accept and to many new questions I have to ask myself. Besides the whole stories around good remind me to much of a real bad film.


Something can only be critised as soon as it is put into shape. And i do not believe in the picture of god that some try to sell me. As long as you look at one single aspect, it kinda seems to make sense, superficially. But when you look at the whole picture, it doesn't. At least not for me. Not at all.


I admit I do not have the answers to many questions. But that is nothing bad. I just don't want to settle with something that has more holes than a cheese in my eyes. I rather continue searching.
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 9:32pm

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Ice_Man

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sollthar, I think 'magic' is the term I give to anything I can't explain lol

seriously, some stuff that's happened to me, nobody could explain, and that's what made me believe in miracles. I was in a huge car accident as a young child. I was riding with a friend's family to their cottage to stay the weekend. Some guy had spilled his drink all over himself and went swerving all over the road, resulting in a ten car pile up. The car I was in, went careening off the edge of the overpass into another highway's traffic, resulting in another huge pile up. The car I was in was almost completely crushed. Everyone was killed except me, I wasn't even scratched. None of the investigators could figure out how I had escaped untouched. I still don't know why.

that, to me anyway, is a miracle. but then again, my perspective there may be a bit clouded due to personal experience wink

two_gunned - my cat's name is Tubby, because he's fat, and because he likes to drink water from the bathtub

sollthar - as much as I hate to say it, I'm with you on WillingServant's explanation. I don't think he even knows anything about his faith. that's a text book regurgitation on why we shouldn't question anything about God

moebius - you sly dog! the only times you've posted on this topic is with a statement that seems to be calculated to fan the flames! lol
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 9:45pm

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Kram1563

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What a thread, lol
I must say im not a big religeous guy, im probably backtracking here but what the hey, if there was a god and i was brought before him one day there would be many questions i would want to ask i have found myself asking questions to the tv at times specially with chat shows, i watched something a few days a go about forgiveness, a woman was on there and she said how her twin sons were murdered and then some other snotty woman(you could tell she was snotty, arrogant and christian no offence to christians what so ever) but she stood up and demanded that the woman forgave the murderer because it was what god wanted, and she wouldnt stop arguing that a murderer should not be blamed for the actionshe/she took, and anyone in the world hurt by antoher should forgive them all to show respect to god, and to be honest i laughed and just turned it off because it was mad all im saying is bring me proof of a god and im there biggrin
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 9:46pm

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Greyo

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hey ice-man i'm sorry to hear about that accident it must have been real hard on you. When i hear stories like that i'll admit is hard not to think of it as a miracel. But let it be said that i'm glad ur still here to argue with

sollthar i have to agree with u on all the point su made in ur last couple of posts.

kram1563 thats a great example of y some people find it hard to to take religion serious. But thats probably an extreme case and i doubt anyone here will condone that womans actions
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 9:59pm

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Ice_Man

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thanks greyo, it was tough. it definitely raised some questions for me, though. why did I live while my friend and his family died? how fair was that? why would god allow me to lose my best friend like that? what was I supposed to be doing with my life? WHY DIDN'T I DIE!?

but in the long run, I figured out that I couldn't let my doubts rule my life. I guess I got over it, after some time. I still think about it all the time. I visit the graves every year, and that always brings those same questions back to me. . .

kram - the fact that I am living and arguing with you wonderful lot here today is all the proof I need that there is a god. . .
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 10:00pm

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Sollthar

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My prefered term for things I can't explain is "urrr... what the..." smile


I am very sorry to hear that. That must have a been a terrible experience... Hmm... yes, I understand how you must have felt about the "miracle" of beeing unhurt. And I guess in such a sitation simple "luck" is not really what one wants to have had.

Luckily I have never experienced something that is even comparable to this, yet the feeling.. hmm... like kind of beeing chosen or protected by someone or something is familiar, but off course not in this strength you must have had it.

I guess I am not romantic enough to conclude out of this that there is actually someone protecting me.
(and in school papers they wrote about me "Sometimes he is like a emotionless robot. Everything has to be logic and if not it gets deducted into pieces with no mercy whats all ever.") smile


My cats name is Blacky... Because she's black... Yeah, I know... i've been very creative... leave me alone smile
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 10:06pm

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Ice_Man

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yeah, I admit, my case is unusual, but like I said, it's all I need to believe there is a god. smile


wow, blacky. . . I guess that's no better than mittens lol
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 10:27pm

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f8xmulder

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Some thoughts I have, after reading through all the posts on this particular thread...

I find it pretty amazing that though some of you out there are atheists, and some of us are Christians, we all have a lot of the same questions. That to me is encouraging in one sense, because it means we have a common ground upon which to start discussing. On the other hand, it speaks to a radical shift in how the early church (as seen in the Bible) dealt with issues like this versus how people today deal with them.

For instance, Free Will is an issue that crops up frequently. I haven't yet seen anyone mention the flip side. What if we didn't have free will? What would life be like? Would we have the "freedom" to question whether God exists or not? Would we even understand a concept like freedom? To me, free will is the most basic of all freedom, and in a sense, the foundation of all other freedom.

When such freedom is taken away, all other forms of freedom cease to be.

Okay, so where would that leave us? If God did exist, and we didn't have freedom, we'd have no choice but to worship and follow him (assuming this God wants people to do so). If God doesn't exist and there is no freedom, we're even more screwed, because that means that we're slave to something else. It could be biology. It could be intellectualism. Whatever the situation, a universe without Free Will is obviously one that we, as rational human beings, abhor, knowing that the very concept of 'no freedom' is not good.

It stands to reason, then, if we are rational humans, that Free Will definitely exists. If it exists, then that means other freedoms exist as well. So let's look at Free Will from the concept of God or no-God.

If no God exists, and we have Free Will, that means that there is no Law, no inherent Order to the universe. Why? Because Free Will without a presiding order is necessarily lawless. Since we know rules and laws exist, even on the quantum level, that means that there is SOME presiding order. Whether at this stage you want to call it God or not, there is SOME higher order or power at work.

Next post: Why does God allow bad things to happen?
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 10:40pm

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Sollthar

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Agreed. There definatley are rules. But that doesn't make a god necessary.
Those rules have all one thing incommon: They are purely mathematic.
If "god" is just another word for mathematics or logic, than I call myself a full believer.
But "god" is usually used for morals, ethic stuff. The sad truth is, that moral has nothing to do with laws, but just with point of view. There are no rules to moral. There never were and there never will be.

Oh, and just a small detail. There is no proof that we actually have a free will. That is just an assumption. You assume that when you stand before a decision, that you actually can decide because you think about it. And later, when you decided, you think back believing that you could have done something else.
But you cannot actually proof this.
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 10:44pm

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Ice_Man

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I think there is a basic set of rules with morals. otherwise how would everyone in the world arrive at the same values? killing, stealing, etc. were discouraged before the ten commandments, so there's no possible way you can claim that those are religious values.
if there are no rules to morals, then why do we all feel the same way, whether we believe in a god or not?


and just like there is no proof we do have a free will, you can't prove that we don't. that's kind of pointless to bring, as you can't support your theory, either.
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 10:45pm

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Bob Page

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I agree with you Sollthar.
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 10:51pm

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f8xmulder

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Sollthar, you either have Free Will or you don't. eg, the world is either a Free Will world or a Deterministic world.

I won't go much into determinism except to say that quantum physics generally favours a Free Will model over a Deterministic model.

Yes, there is no "logical" proof for Free Will or Determinism, but Free Will can be acknowledged and tested for in other ways.
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 10:56pm

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Sollthar

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There is actually a small point to that.
You're right. I can't proof wheter we have a free will or not. The only conclusion I can take out if this is that all arguments - no matter for what point they are - are completely useless if they involve or even base on a free will or a nofree will. And that is the point, because this conclusion does take away more pro-god arguments than contra-god arguments. smile


Actually it isn't like that. There are no values that are global. They just appear to be in first sight.
There are always people who do not agree with the comand that killing is a bad thing to do. Otherwise we would not have murder, death punishments, self defense or euthanasia.

Obviously, there are situations where these rules change in the view of certain people.

The only global moral is the purely subjetive deviding of "good" and "bad". but every human has his own ideas of what is good and what is bad. And truth is, "good" is always what helps us as an individal and "bad" is always what doesn't.

When you reconstruct the changes in religions (take christian religion for example) it comes pretty obvious.
"gods word" always changed to what was currently a good thing to do in the time the change was made. "gods words" always changed. They go with time. That is rather strange because the god the christians imagine should be timeless...
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 10:58pm

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Sollthar

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Really? What ways would that be? Can you explain some of those?

The simple "feeling" that you could do or could have done something else is no proof.
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 11:01pm

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f8xmulder

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Rating: +1

For those interested, CS Lewis is much more eloquent and clear on this subject. You can read his thoughts in "The Problem of Pain".

The Situation

What would happen if you had a chance to create a world of no pain? What would it be like?
Suppose you created beings in this perfect world, and (using my previous argument) gave them Free Will, to do as you asked or not.
Suppose you tip the scale in these creations' favour? You give them all the food they need. You give them freedom to roam and explore and even name plants and animals. You commune with them on a daily basis, even coming down to their level, in their form, so you and them can enjoy each other's company.

Now suppose you gave them one little commandment. One little law. Not too much to ask, considering all you've given them. You ask them to abstain from eating from one of the trees in your perfect world. First of all, WHY?!! Why would you do something like that? Consider the ramifications. You've created this perfect world, and now you've complicated it. Not only have you complicated it, but you've created the first moral dilemma. Or at least, you've provided the means by which your creatures will have their first moral dilemma. For you, it's no dilemma. JUST OBEY ME and all will be well.

But your creatures are relatively faithful. It takes a snake to get them to start "thinking". And just think about that for a moment. What have you done?

What you've done is not only created the world, but you've made it complex and filled with mystery and the possibility (not the certainty, mind you) of danger. If you hadn't given that moral choice, think how uninteresting your perfect world would be. But now, you've got a problem. If your creatures decide to disobey you, then that means that your world is no longer perfect. It will become tainted.

But, oh! It's too late, because you not only gave these creatures free will, but you also gave them a MORAL CHOICE. Put it from a divine perspective. You've limited yourself. You've wilfully put yourself in a position where your creations can rebel. Now here's the really great part. You have to now work within the confines of their rebellion. That means that you have to honor the free will that you've given them. If that's the free will to disobey you, then that means you can't force them not to.

Okay, so where does pain enter in? Very simply, pain results from a deviation of an ordered set (for you mathematical nuts out there, this should make perfect sense). From your creatures' point of view, pain began when they ceased obeying the rules set in place. While those rules are absolute, Free Will's precedence over those rules means they can be broken. But the higher ideal, ORDER ensures that consequences occur in the instance of a break from the set. If you believe in mathematics, you know this is true. When you attempt to break the law of gravity, you have that choice, but its consequence could be fatal. The same goes for moral laws. Or intellectual laws. Or any kind of absolute.

Therefore pain fits within God's framework of design. He cannot deviate from that design (take away that pain) because of free will.

Next post: If God exists, why doesn't He show himself?!
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 11:06pm

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Sollthar

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Interesting story. it really is! +1 for you smile

But you could aswell change the word "god" into "logic", "nature" or even "evolution". No god is really necessary to keep the same picture. smile
(a picture witch stands as a point of view. A good one, but only a point of view)
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 11:08pm

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f8xmulder

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Sollthar: Let me talk about temporal reversibility. Computer games permit temporal reversibility within their universes. How? Simple: you play the game for a while and reach a critical juncture. You save the game, then choose Door A. Woops, you got eaten by an orc! No problem, just reload the game and avoid Door A the second time through. In effect, you went back in time and changed your decision.

Note that this action proves your possession of free will. If you choose path A, then one could argue that you were predestined to choose path A, but if you go back and choose path B, then there can be no arguement about predestination. Temporal reversibility allows us to prove free will.

As it happens, however, there is another resolution to the problem of free will versus determinism, one that embraces physics and rationalizes faith. It says that God is omnipotent with respect to process, not data. That is, God controls the universe through His laws, but not through the details. God does not dictate the position and velocity of every electron and proton in the universe; instead, He merely declares, "Let there be physics" and then allows the clockwork of the universe to run according to His laws. In an indirect way, we could say that He does control everything that happens in the universe, but it is only indirect control.

This realization provides us with the resolution of our apparent problem of free will. God determines the principles under which the universe operates, but grants us free will to choose as we wish within that universe. He even works a little randomness into the system to insure that we aren't automatons responding robotlike to our environments. The important point is this: God is a process-intensive designer!
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 11:08pm

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Bob Page

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f8xmulder wrote:

Next post: If God exists, why doesn't He show himself?!
Because he doesn't exist.
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 11:19pm

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Sollthar

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lol.. great... you could sum up in one sentence for what I needed to write pages... smile



I'm sorry to tell you this fox, but your example has a HUGE logic hole...
The fact that the two situations are NOT the same.
When you test door A and already know that this is not your door, your knowledge has changed and therefore your thoughts about what door to open next are different.
The main decision "what door shall I open" may be the same, but the actual decision isn't.

The only way to proof that is the have the EXACT SAME decision twice and proof that you can chose both ways. But you can't, because you will NEVER EVER have the same decision twice. Thats why I'm right and this is completely unproofable... got it?


That whole processintensive designer sounds like a good story, but has not arguable or proofing points in it. You just tell a "could be". I could give you a lot of "could bes" whithout even mentioning a god and most of them would even have less holes in construction. But still those are only alternatives.
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 11:19pm

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f8xmulder

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In the Eighteenth Century, Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzzatto wrote one of the most masterful presentations of Jewish belief every put down on paper: Derech Hashem ("The Way of God"). In it he explained why God created the universe. It is an arena for human action. Within it, man can grow morally and spiritually to achieve his ultimate reward: closeness to God. All the difficulties we face in life are but steps along the way, problems we must solve to further our growth -- and as this is going on, God remains hidden. Why?

Well, suppose I go to the governor of the state and tell him that I have a new way of rehabilitating prisoners. I can take the worst criminal and in one week turn him into a good person. The governor is intrigued. How will I do this?

Quite simple. The prisoner will be released into my custody. I place a gun to his head and tell him that I will be following him around for the entire week. If he ever hurts another person, if he ever commits any criminal act, if he ever does anything wrong I will squeeze the trigger and shoot him.

Now at the end of the week, will I find that he has committed any offense against society? Of course not. But, by the end of the week will he have become a good person? Absolutely not. In fact, no moral growth will have occurred at all since the only reason the prisoner avoided criminal acts was his fear of the consequences. It was pure self-preservation. He had no thoughts or concerns as to the morality of his actions. He did not grow. In effect, he lost his free will.

God wants us to grow. If we could see His presence at all times, if we could see Him looking over our shoulders as we go through life, we would be no different than the prisoner. We would lose our free will, we would lose the freedom to transgress, and hence we would not experience the moral growth that occurs when we freely choose to do the right thing. So God must hide to give us room to become "all that we can be."

How does he hide? There are a myriad of ways, but let's consider only one. God hides through physical law.

I hold a ball in my hand, and I let it go. It falls to the ground. Again, I do it; again it falls. Why does the ball fall? A scientist would say that it is a law of nature: the force of gravity causes it to fall. But we know differently. We know that the ball falls because God makes it fall. If God wanted to, He could just as easily make the ball move upward as fall to the ground. Why, then, does He make it fall each time?

If God acts according to a pattern, in a manner we can predict, a scientist can learn this pattern and call it a law of nature. Then, if he wishes, he can say that there is no God, only absolute laws of nature that determine how the world behaves. God allows us to become atheists if we so choose. Thus, we are given free will.

What would happen if God caused the ball to rise upward? What of those very rare occasions in which the laws of nature are "violated?" A scientist would say that this is impossible, but God can choose to do anything. Those observing such an event would have a name for it -- they would call it a "miracle." But in reality it would be no less miraculous than when the ball falls down!

Albert Einstein said that he studied physics to understand how much freedom God had in creating the universe. He saw God as subject to the laws of physics. The Torah tells us otherwise. The Master of the Universe is just that: the creator of man, of physics, and even of logic itself.

God hides to give us free will, and one way He hides is through the regularities of action we lesser beings call physical law. He hides, but we seek Him. The Hebrew word for the world is "Olam," the root of which means to hide or conceal. To the Jew, the world is the hiding place, the place we seek the concealed God, and it is through the Torah, the guidebook and map to the universe, our license to "cheat," that we find Him.

That's all for now. If you have more questions I'll try and go into them...
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 11:26pm

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Bob Page

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f8xmulder wrote:

If God wanted to, He could just as easily make the ball move upward as fall to the ground
How do you know that? Sorry but that just funny lol
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 11:30pm

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f8xmulder

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The only way to proof that is the have the EXACT SAME decision twice and proof that you can chose both ways. But you can't, because you will NEVER EVER have the same decision twice.

Free Will assumes that only one choice can be made. You're still trying to prove Determinism, under the veneer of trying to prove free will. In a deterministic universe, you would only be able to make one choice, but if you could make two choices, you'd make the same choice twice.
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 11:30pm

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Sollthar

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There are tons of stories or methaphors to proofe something. I could bring you up many very smart things Kant, Heidegger or Nietzsche said why there can't be a god. But I woun't do this because it wouldn't bring us any further...


I'll try a different approach:

I say you are all completely wrong. There is a small, violet Alien sitting on your head wich makes you believe we're human beeings through it's telephatic abilities. But actually, we are all small Ants it has created for his own amusement. The alien is made of something we cannot see, hear, smell or detect with any technology we have.


Okay, now we all now that this is pure nonsense. But noone of you can proof that this isa lie. But that doesn't make it true.
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 11:30pm

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f8xmulder

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The only way to proof that is the have the EXACT SAME decision twice and proof that you can chose both ways. But you can't, because you will NEVER EVER have the same decision twice.

Free Will assumes that only one choice can be made. You're still trying to prove Determinism, under the veneer of trying to prove free will. In a deterministic universe, you would only be able to make one choice, but if you could make two choices, you'd make the same choice twice.
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 11:32pm

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f8xmulder

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sorry for the dual post
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 11:32pm

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Sollthar

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No, there is no prove for a deterministic universe. As well as there is no prove for a free will.

You simply cannot test wheter you can decide differently or not. You can only assume. Is that so hard to understand?
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 11:34pm

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X

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"When you reconstruct the changes in religions (take christian religion for example) it comes pretty obvious.
"gods word" always changed to what was currently a good thing to do in the time the change was made. "gods words" always changed. They go with time. That is rather strange because the god the christians imagine should be timeless..."

God's word doesn't change to fit the time. If that was true why were most of his prophets killed? Jesus? People said he was a drunk. Crazy. Romans thought he was weak because he preached mercy. Christ's whole message was not popular that is why they killed him.
Jews wanted to stone him. None of that fits with what you said.

What about some of the facts in the Bible? 1000 years before Christ came God said He would come. He said he would be not handsome, scorned, laughed at and get beaten and crucified. That's not to popular.
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 11:38pm

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f8xmulder

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Humans experience reality in many different modes. During the day, we usually shift from one mode to another without thinking about it. Natural philosophies, like science, must be dealt with while operating in the mode of empiricism. And when we consider our spiritual beliefs, we are free to explore areas that science cannot. I distinguish between these different ways of knowing as if I was wearing a hat that defined my current philosophical mode. For example, when I am dealing with scientific issues, I am wearing my `science' hat. When I am dealing with spiritual issues, then I am wearing my `spiritual' hat. I cannot wear both hats at the same time. If I try to, well, I look pretty silly.

Being an empiricist all the time is probably impossible for us human types. I don't know that it would be such a good idea. We are very social animals and much of the joy we have with each other has nothing to do with empiricism. But when it comes time to be an empiricist then we must accept the constraints that empiricism imposes on our interpretation of the world. When we decide to think empirically about a topic, we must put on our science hat and step into the Box of Empiricism.

The Box of Empiricism is my way of describing how empirical thinking places constraints on how we can experience human reality. While inside the box of empiricism, we can experience reality only in empirical ways. We cannot see outside. We are unaware of our spiritual yearnings. We are unaware of God. To us inside the box of empiricism, we cannot consider that humans have purpose. These ideas never occur to us. We have no hunch that today is the day to win the lottery. All these ideas lie outside the box. While inside the box we are not obliged to deny our non-empirical philosophies. They are still part of our life's reality. They will be waiting for us when we emerge. Except that while we are in the box, they are momentarily put on hold. If we sense God or spirituality while we think we are in the box, then we are not in the box. The box walls are opaque to such ideas, and the only way to sense them is to open the door and peak out. Once the door is opened the box no longer is a box of empiricism. It can only be so with us fully inside and the door sealed shut. The tiniest leak of spiritual or non-empirical belief contaminates the box. Residency in the Box of Empiricism is an either-or proposition.

Luckily, we are free to move into and out of the box whenever we want. We can change hats many times a day. And we are free to express how we experience reality in both places. Some of us like it inside the box and spend more time in there. Others hate it and find that their lives are better outside. Each person will settle on their own particular style.

You, my friend, are stuck inside the Box of Empiricism. Try stepping out once in a while, and you will find the view changes.
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 11:41pm

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Sollthar

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I'm sorry, but you're arguments all base on points that are not sure to me... If Jesus really existed I doubt he was anything more than a good man who tried to help. And just that you can name some examples where it is not like I said doesn't mean it never is... I didn't say "always".


What about some "facts" in the bible? Well... what about some "wrong facts" in the bible?
For example it is written that god made two lights. One for the night and one for the day. There is only one light, the one for the day. The second light (wich must clearly be the moon) is no light. it is only reflecting the light of the first one. So god most be a very bad physician...
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 11:45pm

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Sollthar

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Yes, I'm a logic thinker, always been, therefore I wear my epiricism-hat the whole day. I threw the other away. smile

You're right. When I step outside my empiricism box i find new views. As soon as I forget the rules of logic, anything is possible. God can be miss piggy and I can be a telefone. It doesn't have to make sense. But that is no way of looking at thing I can accept. Not for me.

When I close my eyes, I get a new point of view too. But the question is, does the world disappear just because I closed my eyes?
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 11:47pm

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f8xmulder

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Well now you're just being silly.

I need to watch Seinfeld. I'll be back later...
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 11:52pm

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Sollthar

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Hmm... Must be my study of philosphy. Always when I mention a true philosophical state I'm told beeing silly... smile


What the methaphor stands for is:
When you want to prove something, you need logic. Without logic, you can't prove. Nothing needs to make sense. Now you cannot come and tell me a story about two different hats. There are no two worlds, there is just one. And it isn't splitted into "some parts are logic empirism and some parts don't need to be logic". Anyone who has paid attention in school knows that this can't be. Logic and unlogic can't exist at the same time. Either the world is completely built up out of fully logical rules and therefore EVERYTHING can be proven, or the world if fully unlogic, therefore nothing can be proven and anything could be possible. Even me little violet alien story.
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 11:54pm

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Bob Page

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X wrote:

"When you reconstruct the changes in religions (take christian religion for example) it comes pretty obvious.
"gods word" always changed to what was currently a good thing to do in the time the change was made. "gods words" always changed. They go with time. That is rather strange because the god the christians imagine should be timeless..."

God's word doesn't change to fit the time. If that was true why were most of his prophets killed? Jesus? People said he was a drunk. Crazy. Romans thought he was weak because he preached mercy. Christ's whole message was not popular that is why they killed him.
Jews wanted to stone him. None of that fits with what you said.

What about some of the facts in the Bible? 1000 years before Christ came God said He would come. He said he would be not handsome, scorned, laughed at and get beaten and crucified. That's not to popular.
You're right, the guys who wrote the "Bible" had a lot of imagination smile

Spoiler alert : read no further if you have yet to read the "Bible" and are intending to do so

Who could had predict that Jesus ressucited at the end razz That was amazing biggrin
5 stars!
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 11:54pm

Post 75 of 146

anonymous

Bob Page wrote:

X wrote:

"When you reconstruct the changes in religions (take christian religion for example) it comes pretty obvious.
"gods word" always changed to what was currently a good thing to do in the time the change was made. "gods words" always changed. They go with time. That is rather strange because the god the christians imagine should be timeless..."

God's word doesn't change to fit the time. If that was true why were most of his prophets killed? Jesus? People said he was a drunk. Crazy. Romans thought he was weak because he preached mercy. Christ's whole message was not popular that is why they killed him.
Jews wanted to stone him. None of that fits with what you said.

What about some of the facts in the Bible? 1000 years before Christ came God said He would come. He said he would be not handsome, scorned, laughed at and get beaten and crucified. That's not to popular.
You're right, the guys who wrote the "Bible" had a lot of imagination smile

Spoiler alert : read no further if you have yet to read the "Bible" and are intending to do so



Who could had predict that Jesus ressucited at the end razz That was amazing biggrin
5 stars!
Posted: Mon, 27th Jan 2003, 11:58pm

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Bob Page

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crazy I tries to edit my post but it logout tard

sorry
Posted: Tue, 28th Jan 2003, 12:02am

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f8xmulder

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Oh Sollthar...you've just circled yourself into a quandary.

Let's see what you said:
Without logic, you can't prove
Then you said:
Either the world is completely built up out of fully logical rules and therefore EVERYTHING can be proven, or the world if fully unlogic, therefore nothing can be proven and anything could be possible.
I won't even bother going back through all your posts to count the number of times you've said that this or that is unprovable (I'm thinking it's in the double digits). There are lots of things that are unprovable. Does that mean that they don't exist? Like Love. Or Justice. Or any of the Ideal Forms. You can't prove they exist, in an empirical, logical sense.

You would say they only exist in our minds, or we think they exist, but don't really. To both I would respond thusly: That which is cannot also not be. Put another way, you cannot have something exist and not exist at the same time. But how can something exist in our minds if it also does not exist in reality? That is how we know concepts like Love and Justice exist, because they exist in our mind.
Posted: Tue, 28th Jan 2003, 12:03am

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er-no

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I think we have a second David Hume in Sollthar up there.

I could go into a heated discussion alongside him, as I am pretty much a solid empiricist and go through life very teleologically.

You ask the question is the world still there if you close your eyes Sollthar. Well as you might know David Hume would say its not. All physical sense data and sense experience is collected 'sense-data' that the mind refers back to as an image which creates the exterior world. The world is still there when you close your eyes, but its only the world you have known before you close your eyes.
Posted: Tue, 28th Jan 2003, 12:10am

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er-no

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f8xmulder wrote:


You would say they only exist in our minds, or we think they exist, but don't really. To both I would respond thusly: That which is cannot also not be. Put another way, you cannot have something exist and not exist at the same time. But how can something exist in our minds if it also does not exist in reality? That is how we know concepts like Love and Justice exist, because they exist in our mind.
David Hume would argue that reality is within the mind, what we think and believe and what is real is actually simply sense data and values which we have collected since we were born. What are you saying about Love and Justice? It is very true that everyones perception of love and justice are very different, we only obtain our own definitions of these words through empirical knowledge, if love was innate or even exterior and we collected it from the 'exterior world' surely we would all have the same ideas and values for love and justice.

We don't. Thats why Sollthar is talking sense, empiricism is the only form of philosophy and way of thinking. Well.. maybe that and naive realism. smile
Posted: Tue, 28th Jan 2003, 12:12am

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Sollthar

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Hehe, thanks er-no! smile
I know what Hume said, clever man. But I'm not supposed to ask questions like that or I'm told being silly... smile


Actually I didn't contradict myself. To explain that certain questions can't be answered or certain statements can't be proven you could read Heidegger. he said that some things cannot be proven. But that is not the world fault, but the fault of the human beings because they don't know how to ask the right questions.

No, you cannot create a deductive definition of "love", but that is simply because "love" is a methaphorical expression to sum up countless and always empiric facts.

So yes, "love" as a logic term does simply not exist.
Posted: Tue, 28th Jan 2003, 12:14am

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f8xmulder

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So now David Hume is the Be All End All of what we understand about the world?

Believe me, Hume is only one of many philosophers who have contemplated reality.
Posted: Tue, 28th Jan 2003, 12:15am

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er-no

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Hume also said, which is appropriate at this time:

'To answer these questions, one would have to go beyond the boundaries of thinking philosophy, and that itself is something nobody can ever do'.

He ruled. Wittchienstien (sp) also ruled, I can't remember the precise question, but he basically said, 'I have come up with the theory, now I leave it to the future to answer'.
Posted: Tue, 28th Jan 2003, 12:15am

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Sollthar

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Yeah, but he's the one who's right wink
Posted: Tue, 28th Jan 2003, 12:19am

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er-no

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f8xmulder wrote:

So now David Hume is the Be All End All of what we understand about the world?

Believe me, Hume is only one of many philosophers who have contemplated reality.
Descartes was one of the first, and probably the best, he laid the foundations down for the philosophy that we know and talk about today.
Hume was merely a larger sceptic than Descartes, which is why I like him because he questionned a lot more things, while knowing he still couldn't answer them he gave his opinion.

Obviously before that you had the trully great thinkers like Plato and all the greek philsophers.

Maybe the most interesting Philosopher and the one which most of our laws are based on in the Uk is John Stuart Mill (followed on later by his relation Jeremy Betham). He devised the utilitarianism rule of ethics. Sadly though this rule had major arguments against it...

Wittchienstien as well, (sp). And also Locke and Leibniz and Kant. The Kantian theory of ethics is excellent.
Posted: Tue, 28th Jan 2003, 12:22am

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Sollthar

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Yes, i agree... Kants "critisism of pure reason" is fantastic. I'm a big admirer of his work.


Fact is, that todays philosphy does argue about other points. But not about the point that all thinking is based on empirism and logic only.
Posted: Tue, 28th Jan 2003, 12:24am

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f8xmulder

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Heidegger also wrote that existence is dependent on its distinction from our existence.

I think you've got the problem of confusing empirical fact and value judgments.

Hume's distinction between matters of fact and matters of value has led many people to assume that "value judgments" have no basis in reality, since the reality that we perceive is factual.

Hume's distinction, however, would be no surprise to Plato, who believed that value was based, not on the things of experience, but on the transcendent Forms.

Kantian theory is that such a transcendent aspect of things is not a separate World, as Plato had thought, but is present in things-in-themselves. The view that all we perceive in phenomenal objects is factual, however, is mistaken.

For instance, Plato himself esteemed beauty as the particular form of value that actually can be seen in things. To make this consistent with the rest of his theory, however, he had to say that beautiful objects were only "shadows" of the higher reality, "participating" in the Form of Beauty.

Although Kant's own aesthetics were subjectivist (the theory of the Critique of Judgment), his metaphysics could allow for a more literal rendering of Plato's own claim about beauty: Since transcendence is in phenomenal objects, the beauty that we see in things is in fact a perception right through factual reality to Beauty Itself.
Posted: Tue, 28th Jan 2003, 12:31am

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f8xmulder

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Alright, I've spent way more time than I probably should have on this board.

Sollthar, everyone else...no hard feelings, thanks for talking, it was fun.

Later, gators.
Posted: Tue, 28th Jan 2003, 12:32am

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er-no

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Put simply. Empirical fact is sense experience.

We are born with nothing, blank minds, all experience helps us create our own perception. Sollthar is not confused, as thats is empiricism. Nothing else.

Rationalists sux0r. twisted
Posted: Tue, 28th Jan 2003, 12:33am

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er-no

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f8xmulder wrote:

Alright, I've spent way more time than I probably should have on this board.

Sollthar, everyone else...no hard feelings, thanks for talking, it was fun.

Later, gators.
You'll be back....

(they always come back)
Posted: Tue, 28th Jan 2003, 12:34am

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Sollthar

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Yeah, me too... it's getting awfully late smile



It has been very interesting and fun indeed! Thanks for the discussion! smile


It's always a terriffic exercise.
Posted: Tue, 28th Jan 2003, 12:36am

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er-no

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Sollthar wrote:



It's always a terriffic exercise.
My senses tell me Mario and Garfield would have something to say about your spelling.

Maybe even Sonic too.... wink
Posted: Tue, 28th Jan 2003, 12:40am

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Sollthar

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Hehe... hey! I'm swiss and learned english from watching skychannel! Don't expect me to know how to write things correctly! smile
Posted: Tue, 28th Jan 2003, 1:47am

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Ice_Man

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Holy crap! I leave to go eat dinner with my girlfriend, and come back not even an hour and a half later, and there are three pages of responses that have wandered off the religious debate and started argueing whether we exist or not!! WOW! lol

in my humble opinion, I think all the debates on existentialism are a waste of time. . . if you truly have nothing better to do with your time than try and prove that you don't 'exist' then you need to get out more smile
seriously though, how can one contemplate one's presence, if one does not exist? if you claim that all life experience is nothing more than sensory data, then why bother going on? why not kill yourself to end the pointless flow of things that never happened? as data can not be tangible (data is a concept, it's elements are real) then why waste your time trying to do things that aren't?

er-no wrote :
David Hume would argue that reality is within the mind, what we think and believe and what is real is actually simply sense data and values which we have collected since we were born. What are you saying about Love and Justice? It is very true that everyones perception of love and justice are very different, we only obtain our own definitions of these words through empirical knowledge, if love was innate or even exterior and we collected it from the 'exterior world' surely we would all have the same ideas and values for love and justice.
if reality is in the mind, then why can I not make myself fly about the air as if I was floating in water? ooh! ooh! perhaps I am right now! perhaps I'm writing this post as I'm floating in the air!!!!
as for love and justice. . . I dunno, everyone I've talked to has the same basic version of 'love' I don't know anyone who thinks love is shooting someone in the face. . .
justice will always be subjective, because of independant human thought. but (da*mn it!) we're right back at the concept-to-reality bit, because justice doesn't "exist". . .


personally, I think anyone who sits around and tries to think up junk like that is a bit daffy, I think Hume and all his buddies wasted their time. I'd rather spend my time living, than trying to figure out if I'm really alive or not. . .

just an opinion smile

good night all, I need to rest my brain from this topic. . . perhaps I'll start another thread of something a little less deep. . .
Posted: Tue, 28th Jan 2003, 2:22am

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jirwin

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Okay, I must say wow, This discussion certainly went up in flames after leaving for a while....

Personally, I enjoyed the arguments before people brought up philosophy into it. After that all anyone did was spout off quotes from dead philosophers. Not to mention arguing whether we exist or not using reason and once again quotes from OTHER people just to bring you and us back to where we started. Personally, I think philosophy is useful but when using it in arguments I think it is a waste of time...oh well, maybe this discussion will continue on tomorrow. It's getting late.

Maybe to bring the discussion back on track I'd like to bring some stuff up to the surface again. First of all going back to why God brings suffering to the earth...READ the BOOK OF JOB....I mean come on Sollthar, it's hard to believe you read the bible twice and still have questions about suffering..It was clearly answered in Job and what he had to deal with.

Secondly, I always find it amusing when an atheist brings out a small little verse from the bible and says "what about...?" and tries to disprove the entire Bible and God with that one statement. The thing you said about "and God made 2 lights...."

I have the bible right in front of me,
Genesis 1:14 - "And God said, "Let bright lights appear in the sky to separate the day from the night. They will be signs to mark off the seasons, the days, and the years. Let their light shine down upon the earth." And so it was. For God made two great lights, the sun and the moon, to shine down upon the earth. The greater one, the sun, presides during the day; the lesser one, the moon, presides through the night. He also made the stars. God set these lights in the heavens to light the earth, to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good."

First off, God used People to write the bible. Did you ever think that by telling who ever he led to write this that the moon was actually a "giant rock" (sorry for my simple definition) and that the light was actually a reflection from the Sun that this would not effect people's views of science early on? What if one thing led to another after learning this and SOOO MANY wrong events happened that wasn't a part of God's plan. Maybe this was the best way to give the information to whoever was writing it at that time.

Also, I have webster's dictionary right in front of me as well and it defines light, NUMBER 1 definition as "Something that makes vision possible"

now please tell me that you can now say that the moon is a light based on that definition... Thank You, no applause please lol

------- Next topic

Sollthar, I can't believe you actually admitted that you only think inside the box. That you base everything off rationality and science. Basically Science is your idol. You base everything off what other people have concluded before you whether it be right or wrong. You never come up wiht your own opinions only spout off what you've been taught. That's ridiculous, as F8XMulder said, that is so rational that it is irrational.

Bring on some more facts that you claim are wrong in the bible. If the bible could be disproved by people like you who just pick random verses from the book of Genesis then there'd be no discussion, everyone would disbelieve the bible and God. everyone would be like sollthar, people trapped in the world of science not every imagining that there is a greater being that made them.

Sorry if that sounded harsh, didn't mean it to be..its all in fun- lets keep this thing going wink
Posted: Tue, 28th Jan 2003, 2:43am

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Ice_Man

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I dunno, I think ya'll should go check out this topic, and leave this one be for a while smile

http://www.csb-digital.com/alamdv/community/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6536

come on guys, give the old eggheads a rest, huh?
Posted: Tue, 28th Jan 2003, 3:35am

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X

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Hey Bob,

Spolier alert for you! The text was written 1000 years beforeJesus was born. It is called prophesy. Same with the state of Israel now. The Isralies are the only people to have been kicked out of the homeland for over 300+ years and not disbanded. There are few others. Can you try to keep it civil?


Solthar,

I hear about "mistakes" in the Bible alot. Do you really think that people 6000 years ago thought the moon was a light? Do you think that civilizations that had astronomers and calendars were banging rocks together and thinking the moon was a mini-sun? It is a type of speach. It is like when people say the Bible is wrong about Christ being crucified because they say that the nails were in his hands and scientifically hands could not bear the weight. If people looked into it they would see that back then the wrist was considered part of the hand and the nail was driven into the wrist. So you can think that the Bible is wrong about that too but then you would have to think that the people who wrote it who had seen lots of crucifictions just got it wrong and it took 500 years for someone to catch their mistake.
Posted: Tue, 28th Jan 2003, 8:21am

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moebius

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Ice_Man wrote:

moebius - you sly dog! the only times you've posted on this topic is with a statement that seems to be calculated to fan the flames! lol
Woah ho ho! This thread has sure ballooned since I last left it! lol Ice, that's my job, man - to keep those neurotransmitters workin' overtime! biggrin
Posted: Tue, 28th Jan 2003, 8:54am

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moebius

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f8xmulder wrote:

For instance, Free Will is an issue that crops up frequently. I haven't yet seen anyone mention the flip side. What if we didn't have free will? What would life be like? Would we have the "freedom" to question whether God exists or not? Would we even understand a concept like freedom? To me, free will is the most basic of all freedom, and in a sense, the foundation of all other freedom.

When such freedom is taken away, all other forms of freedom cease to be.

Okay, so where would that leave us? If God did exist, and we didn't have freedom, we'd have no choice but to worship and follow him (assuming this God wants people to do so). If God doesn't exist and there is no freedom, we're even more screwed, because that means that we're slave to something else. It could be biology. It could be intellectualism. Whatever the situation, a universe without Free Will is obviously one that we, as rational human beings, abhor, knowing that the very concept of 'no freedom' is not good.

It stands to reason, then, if we are rational humans, that Free Will definitely exists. If it exists, then that means other freedoms exist as well. So let's look at Free Will from the concept of God or no-God.

If no God exists, and we have Free Will, that means that there is no Law, no inherent Order to the universe. Why? Because Free Will without a presiding order is necessarily lawless. Since we know rules and laws exist, even on the quantum level, that means that there is SOME presiding order. Whether at this stage you want to call it God or not, there is SOME higher order or power at work.
Ahh, the classic "Free Will as the Ultimate Good" defense biggrin Thing is, why should free will (and freedom) be given priority over peace and happiness i.e. a perfect state of affairs (in human terms, anyway)? If not having free will means existing in a perfect environment, wouldn't that be better?

It appears that only negative conclusions can be drawn from the argument for free will: 1) free will was granted for the sake of (human)intellectual self-gratification (which is antithetic to the Christian virtue of humility), or worse, 2) so that human beings would by their own volition find their way to God, which would make God somewhat of an egotistical being.

Actually, thinking about it, free will wasn't actually granted by God. It was an accident of some sort, wasn't it (cf. what happened in the Garden of Eden)? What are your thoughts on this, guys? smile
Posted: Tue, 28th Jan 2003, 9:07am

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moebius

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f8xmulder wrote:

For those interested, CS Lewis is much more eloquent and clear on this subject. You can read his thoughts in "The Problem of Pain".

The Situation

What would happen if you had a chance to create a world of no pain? What would it be like?
Suppose you created beings in this perfect world, and (using my previous argument) gave them Free Will, to do as you asked or not.
Suppose you tip the scale in these creations' favour? You give them all the food they need. You give them freedom to roam and explore and even name plants and animals. You commune with them on a daily basis, even coming down to their level, in their form, so you and them can enjoy each other's company.

Now suppose you gave them one little commandment. One little law. Not too much to ask, considering all you've given them. You ask them to abstain from eating from one of the trees in your perfect world. First of all, WHY?!! Why would you do something like that? Consider the ramifications. You've created this perfect world, and now you've complicated it. Not only have you complicated it, but you've created the first moral dilemma. Or at least, you've provided the means by which your creatures will have their first moral dilemma. For you, it's no dilemma. JUST OBEY ME and all will be well.

But your creatures are relatively faithful. It takes a snake to get them to start "thinking". And just think about that for a moment. What have you done?

What you've done is not only created the world, but you've made it complex and filled with mystery and the possibility (not the certainty, mind you) of danger. If you hadn't given that moral choice, think how uninteresting your perfect world would be. But now, you've got a problem. If your creatures decide to disobey you, then that means that your world is no longer perfect. It will become tainted.

But, oh! It's too late, because you not only gave these creatures free will, but you also gave them a MORAL CHOICE. Put it from a divine perspective. You've limited yourself. You've wilfully put yourself in a position where your creations can rebel. Now here's the really great part. You have to now work within the confines of their rebellion. That means that you have to honor the free will that you've given them. If that's the free will to disobey you, then that means you can't force them not to.

Okay, so where does pain enter in? Very simply, pain results from a deviation of an ordered set (for you mathematical nuts out there, this should make perfect sense). From your creatures' point of view, pain began when they ceased obeying the rules set in place. While those rules are absolute, Free Will's precedence over those rules means they can be broken. But the higher ideal, ORDER ensures that consequences occur in the instance of a break from the set. If you believe in mathematics, you know this is true. When you attempt to break the law of gravity, you have that choice, but its consequence could be fatal. The same goes for moral laws. Or intellectual laws. Or any kind of absolute.

Therefore pain fits within God's framework of design. He cannot deviate from that design (take away that pain) because of free will.
This explains non-natural (man-made) evil, but not natural evil (disasters like earthquakes...etc). If we still hold that God is omniscient, omnipotent and omniperfect, then there is absolutely no reason for natural evils to exist. Such evils are consistent with the wrathful God of the old testament, but go against the image of God as we know Him today.
Posted: Tue, 28th Jan 2003, 9:16am

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er-no

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I am going to let it drop now. I do however believe that learning about some of the greatest 'thinkers' that have ever been around is valuable and they shouldn't just be taken as 'dead philosophers'.

A lot of people say I was named after the book of Job. My name is Joby, which is the same as Job but in Hebrew (even though I am not at all religious) means 'the punished and discriminated against by God'.

And I ask myself one question when I look in the mirror,

'Do you feel lucky punk?'
Posted: Tue, 28th Jan 2003, 9:16am

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moebius

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f8xmulder wrote:

Sollthar: Let me talk about temporal reversibility. Computer games permit temporal reversibility within their universes. How? Simple: you play the game for a while and reach a critical juncture. You save the game, then choose Door A. Woops, you got eaten by an orc! No problem, just reload the game and avoid Door A the second time through. In effect, you went back in time and changed your decision.

Note that this action proves your possession of free will. If you choose path A, then one could argue that you were predestined to choose path A, but if you go back and choose path B, then there can be no arguement about predestination. Temporal reversibility allows us to prove free will.

As it happens, however, there is another resolution to the problem of free will versus determinism, one that embraces physics and rationalizes faith. It says that God is omnipotent with respect to process, not data. That is, God controls the universe through His laws, but not through the details. God does not dictate the position and velocity of every electron and proton in the universe; instead, He merely declares, "Let there be physics" and then allows the clockwork of the universe to run according to His laws. In an indirect way, we could say that He does control everything that happens in the universe, but it is only indirect control.

This realization provides us with the resolution of our apparent problem of free will. God determines the principles under which the universe operates, but grants us free will to choose as we wish within that universe. He even works a little randomness into the system to insure that we aren't automatons responding robotlike to our environments. The important point is this: God is a process-intensive designer!
This is the most interesting stuff I've read so far (a well-deserved +2 for ya)! I completely agree that this argument does appear to resolve the problem of free will, and is compelling enough to validate the presence of a divine 'design' and hence a divine designer.

However, it concedes that God is not completely ominpotent. If all things are possible for God, then his powers should not be restricted to process-only machinations, but to all of them, right down to the little nitty-gritties biggrin The point about working in randomness also concedes that God is not omniscient. If he knew what was in store in the future, it would no longer be considered random.
Posted: Tue, 28th Jan 2003, 9:17am

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er-no

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By the definition of God.

I wouldn't say he exists.

Also, whats that about 'free will'? I believe we all have free will, even though to a certain extent we are all controlled through a system.
Posted: Tue, 28th Jan 2003, 9:32am

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moebius

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Whew, it's been fun, boys and girls - should we bring this topic to a close? biggrin
Posted: Tue, 28th Jan 2003, 11:52am

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Sollthar

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I do believe that logic is the only way of thinking. Opinions are nice, everyone has them. But that doesn't make them true.
The only way to find out truth is deductive logic. You take a picture and rip it into pieces. Than you see of those pieces contradict. If they do, the picture must be wrong. If they don't, they picture does not have to be true but most likely is.
All of you think like that, no matter if you want to accept this or not. If somebody's tellign you a story that contradicts to something you know or to something he already said you know he's lying.
Logic has very simpel rules, but nevertheless many people are not aware of how to use them consequently, at least not always.


It was fun! Thank you all for the discussion!

But I agree it's time to end it. I must admit I don't feel secure enough with my english to stand my point against a superior number of english speaking people. If you'd speak german, you bet you'd find a never quitting discussion-rock in me. smile

Nevertheless this discussion has brought me much further. I'm even more sure now that all this is pure fairytale. A nice one, but still a fairytale smile
Posted: Tue, 28th Jan 2003, 9:13pm

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Two Gunned Saint

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I kept on intending to join in this discussion. However I think the whole thing'd have got way too confusing. Besides I think the world can do without my opinions.

Ahh what a piece of work is man how noble.... ahh f*ck it lets just have a drink and forget the whole godamned thing.
Posted: Tue, 28th Jan 2003, 9:23pm

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Ice_Man

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two_gunned - this topic was interesting for a while, but it kinda went downhill. . .

but I'm totally up for that drink! who wants some saki? I know I do!!
Posted: Tue, 28th Jan 2003, 10:47pm

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Bob Page

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Ok, I will try to resume everything,


God is a creation of man. We created "God" to explain things that we couldn't explain. In the past, people could not explain the wind neither the day and night, so they said it was somekind of "Gods". But now we can explain a lot more thing (like wind, attraction, ect.). There is still thing that we cannot explain (like love...), but like in the past, in "x" years, we will be able to explain those things.

The problem is that our ancestors had tell our grandparents and parents about "God" so they tried to make us believe in "God". But with our superior intelligence, some of us took the side of rationality and science, other (which parents did a good job manipulating them) took the side of the powerful man : "God". Yes, the man who created the Earth in 6 days, forgetting the dinosaurs wink

I hope the next generation will be more intelligent than us.

Bob Page

P.S Miracle = luck nothing else

2 P.S Sorry about by english
Posted: Wed, 29th Jan 2003, 12:18am

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Ice_Man

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what you just said doesn't clarify anything. it was a good try, though.

however, I don't recommend you insult my intelligence, or my parents any more. unsure
Posted: Wed, 29th Jan 2003, 12:22am

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Bob Page

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I didn't insult anyone intelligence neither your parents, what I meant is that your parents did a better job manipulating you than my parents did with me.
Posted: Wed, 29th Jan 2003, 12:27am

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Ice_Man

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that's what I'm talking about! How dare you insinuate that because you don't believe in any diety, that means my parents were manipulative, brainwashing simpletons!! don't ever do that again, you stupid athiest a*shole! (not meant as fury at anyone other than bob page)

and you also insulted my intelligence by claiming that only people that don't believe in god have, how did you put it, "superior intelligence" indicating that you think that only idiots believe in a god!!

this topic was wonderfully open-minded, especially from the athiests, until you brought your poor grammar and ignorance into this discussion. . .
Posted: Wed, 29th Jan 2003, 12:31am

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Bob Page

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confused

I didn't saw it like this redface sorry
I meant my parents were not as good as your parents. Sorry
Posted: Wed, 29th Jan 2003, 12:33am

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Ice_Man

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. . .

apology accepted. neutral
Posted: Wed, 29th Jan 2003, 3:43am

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X

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Not to keep this going but.......

The Bible has a lot of science in it. When it was first written it talked about the earth being round so I don't get how people thought it was flat. It talks about thermodynamics of wind. There are dinosours in the Bible too. Laviathin is one. The idea that God created the world makes more sense to me. It explains why some planets spin backward. It explains why all things head toward disorder and breakdown. It explains why the moon, which moves further and further away from the earth every year isn't 8 billion years old. I wish some "scientists" would do math. If the moon is moving further and further away it means it was closer at one time. If the moon is even millions and millions of years old it would have had to start on the earth surface along time ago but if it was only a little closer the tides would have swamped the earth and the winds would have blown everything off of it.

I don't believe the Bible because someone told me. I believe because of what I has seen and studied. I met a man once who summed it up this way... "I know there is a God. I've seen good and I have been evil. There is a God." He was a man that had lived a very hard life. I have known alot of people like that. There not stupid people. Not supersticious. It is like the blind guy in the Bible that got heald. They asked him "Is Jesus God?" and he said "I don't know. But I was blind and now I see"

I actually believe that people are getting more ignorant. I don't mean to be rude but I believe that man in all of his infinite wisdom sets themselves up to be their own little god. The story is the same (3rd chapter of the Bible) we think we have come so far and are so good and so advanced and no longer need God.

I think to know there is a God you need to really open your eyes and look around. I think if you ask God to show Himself He will. It is true that alot of people don't want to know Him. A guy that won the Nobel prize for science said "There are many facts that point to a God. I find that fact to against everything that I want to believe so I choose to ignore them"
Or a guy that wrote "GOD is dead, Niechy" and someone wrote "Niechy is dead, GOD" biggrin

My favorite verse in the Bible is Matthew 11:12. "From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kngdom of heaven suffereth violence and the violent take it by force." What is means is that you have to search for the truth. You have to try to find it. There is another story in the Bible about some guys whose friend was dying. The brought him to Jesus and they could get into the house to see him because there were so many people around. So they rippped off the roof of the house and lowered him down. That is how you have to get to God. You want to be happy? Get to God. You want a forfilled life? Get to God and don't let anything get in your way.

Life is a big deal. I know lots of my friends who have died. Another guy I know just died this last week. People don't want to think about that but you should. But God isn't about a get out of Hell fire insurance policy. He is about much more. That is why people have such a hard time. Everyone has a God sized whole missing in their lives.

Sorry if I went on to long and kept this thread going. Again, if you don't want to believe in God that is your perogative but I think it is my duty to say "The bridge is out ahead on the road your on, watch your step."
Posted: Wed, 29th Jan 2003, 6:29pm

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jirwin

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very good X, +1....I'm so tired of athiests who try to just put in the last word by saying how we made up God and then throw in a few facts like oh gosh, dinosaurs existed and they don't talk about that in the bible so God must be fake....
Yes, it talks about dinosaurs in the bible as well as countless other facts that have been proven by science that happened way before the people who wrote the bible could have possibly known about. The list is endless.
Bob Page, maybe you should take Sollthar's advice and read up on whatever you are going to criticize...Clearly, you know next to little on the subject of the bible.
I think that we ended this discussion two pages ago and so STOP trying to get the last word in. All you are doing is giving a bad name to Athiests...Meaning that you make them out to look like they have no idea what they are talking about and they don't even know what they are arguing against because they haven't studied it.

Sorry, if I went a little too far...but enough of this "ok, so i think i can sum all this up here, God doesnt exist i think because everything is by chance and it doesnt say anywhere in the bible about dinosaurs"

geez people...I'll pray for you
Posted: Wed, 29th Jan 2003, 6:47pm

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jirwin

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False Assumptions are bad, they make you look bad...

I believe in God. He is not meant to be proven. I can back him up with Science but I can not prove him to be there with science. I wish I could. It would make me feel better and we wouldnt have any arguments because science would prove that God exists. That isn't how it works however...We believe in him through faith.

...(Forest Gump Voice)...*and that's all i have to say about that
Posted: Wed, 29th Jan 2003, 7:08pm

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jirwin

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Okay, The final sum up....and no one can argue with me here...this is to end the discussion because there is no end to it....

Some of you are athiests, you don't believe that a God exists....

Some of you are Christians, you believe God exists and you believe that Jesus is his son and that he died for our sins. you believe that it's no longer about living by the commandments but living in a relationship with God and you automatically want to stay away from Sin because you love God.

I won't go into the other religions right now because that's not what most of this discussion was about.
Posted: Wed, 29th Jan 2003, 11:34pm

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Sollthar

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lol

who did you say is trying to get the last word here? smile
Posted: Wed, 29th Jan 2003, 11:40pm

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er-no

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Me.
Posted: Wed, 29th Jan 2003, 11:41pm

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Ice_Man

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he-he.

let's not start, sollthar wink
Posted: Wed, 29th Jan 2003, 11:44pm

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er-no

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*prepares for battle yet again*
Posted: Wed, 29th Jan 2003, 11:46pm

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Ice_Man

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*sighs*

I hate you all. . .




perhaps we should try to swing this thread back on topic. . .
religious aspects aside, do you think this film (Mel Gibson's The Passion, in case you all forgot) has any cinematic potential?
Posted: Wed, 29th Jan 2003, 11:48pm

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er-no

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Ice_Man wrote:

*sighs*
perhaps we should try to swing this thread back on topic. . .
religious aspects aside, do you think this film (Mel Gibson's The Passion, in case you all forgot) has any cinematic potential?
The question is not 'do you think' its 'how we think'.

I 'doubt' therefore I am.
Posted: Wed, 29th Jan 2003, 11:49pm

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Sollthar

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haha, no no... My capitulation will stand... smile


I will remain an Atheist with no slight doubts as much as other will remain believers. If anyone needs a god that his world makes sense, I do not wish to take it away.
Posted: Wed, 29th Jan 2003, 11:50pm

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Sollthar

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Oh, yeah.. the film... well... as it caused an interesting debate I guess I will go and see it... smile


And I loved "the 10 commandments" with Charlton Heston.
Posted: Wed, 29th Jan 2003, 11:51pm

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Ice_Man

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er-no - no, my question was indeed "do you think" that's why I wrote it that way. . .

sollthar, it's good that you'll let me worship a god if I so choose
Posted: Wed, 29th Jan 2003, 11:53pm

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er-no

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Ice_Man wrote:

er-no - no, my question was indeed "do you think" that's why I wrote it that way. . .

sollthar, it's good that you'll let me worship a god if I so choose
Man, I was just joking around. razz wink
Posted: Wed, 29th Jan 2003, 11:55pm

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Sollthar

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Now most of us have showed that we're smart, funny and tolerant. And I really like that... but let's talk about the film now smile
Posted: Wed, 29th Jan 2003, 11:55pm

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Ice_Man

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well, I have no problem with joking around, I just don't dig philosophy as much as you seem to, so I don't find the jokes as funny. . .

as I wrote in an earlier post, I'd rather actually live my life than spending it contemplating whether I'm actually alive or not. . .


I wasn't trying to be hostile. . . redface



yes!!! film!!! the original topic!!!
Posted: Thu, 30th Jan 2003, 12:02am

Post 129 of 146

er-no

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Ice_Man wrote:

well, I have no problem with joking around, I just don't dig philosophy as much as you seem to, so I don't find the jokes as funny. . .
Just on a final note, I don't 'dig' philosophy. The joke I used was actually a play on the very very famous Descartes quote 'I think therefore I am'.

I don't go about doubting how we live and who we are. I try and enjoy my living and everything, I do however find philosophy interesting because the great philsophers of the past have tried to at least answer the questions which we seem to not even want to try and answer. Its just cool hearing a dead dudes answers. wink

Anyways... enough of that. smile
Posted: Thu, 30th Jan 2003, 5:11am

Post 130 of 146

moebius

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Whew! Glad to see that things have been settled amicably biggrin When things started to get less civil, I decided to hang back and stop adding high-grade octane to the already blazing fire lol
Posted: Thu, 30th Jan 2003, 5:25am

Post 131 of 146

jirwin

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*sniff, *sniff

Group hug




...yea, you're right, that was gay.
Posted: Thu, 30th Jan 2003, 4:13pm

Post 132 of 146

Greyo

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well this is the longest post i've ever started on this site biggrin
Posted: Thu, 30th Jan 2003, 4:37pm

Post 133 of 146

Two Gunned Saint

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Rating: +2

"well this is the longest post i've ever started on this site "

Yes but what do you mean by "longest" Socrates said that "God is ....

Oh yeah sorry. Forgot about that, I'll shut up now.
Posted: Thu, 30th Jan 2003, 7:40pm

Post 134 of 146

Ice_Man

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hahaha! awseome! +1 for you, two_gunned!!
Posted: Mon, 3rd Feb 2003, 12:05am

Post 135 of 146

Sollthar

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Here a little something to show that god works in misterious ways smile


http://www.laughs.com.au/Funstuff/fall2.mpg
Posted: Mon, 3rd Feb 2003, 12:08am

Post 136 of 146

Sollthar

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Here a little something to show that god works in misterious ways smile


http://www.laughs.com.au/Funstuff/fall2.mpg
Posted: Mon, 3rd Feb 2003, 12:09am

Post 137 of 146

Sollthar

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Here a little something to show that god works in misterious ways smile


http://www.laughs.com.au/Funstuff/fall2.mpg
Posted: Mon, 3rd Feb 2003, 12:12am

Post 138 of 146

Sollthar

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Here a little something to show that god works in misterious ways smile


http://www.laughs.com.au/Funstuff/fall2.mpg
Posted: Mon, 3rd Feb 2003, 12:13am

Post 139 of 146

Sollthar

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Here a little something to show that god works in misterious ways smile


http://www.laughs.com.au/Funstuff/fall2.mpg
Posted: Mon, 3rd Feb 2003, 12:15am

Post 140 of 146

Ice_Man

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that's amazing! I saw it 5 minutes ago, and I'm still laughing!
Posted: Mon, 3rd Feb 2003, 12:16am

Post 141 of 146

Sollthar

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Here a little something to show that god works in misterious ways smile


http://www.laughs.com.au/Funstuff/fall2.mpg
Posted: Mon, 3rd Feb 2003, 12:19am

Post 142 of 146

Ice_Man

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??
Posted: Mon, 3rd Feb 2003, 12:20am

Post 143 of 146

Sollthar

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Here a little something to show that god works in misterious ways smile


http://www.laughs.com.au/Funstuff/fall2.mpg
Posted: Mon, 3rd Feb 2003, 12:30am

Post 144 of 146

Sollthar

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Oh my... There seems to be a serious database error... I got a MSG that my post couldn´t be posted so a made a new topic.... Now I got this post x-times AND a new topic.... MALONE??? HELP!!! smile
Posted: Mon, 3rd Feb 2003, 6:35pm

Post 145 of 146

Two Gunned Saint

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Okay why does my computer say page 10 of 9?
Posted: Mon, 3rd Feb 2003, 8:35pm

Post 146 of 146

moebius

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lol Sollthar, a little over-zealous with the link, ain't ya? lol Jokin'! Happened to me before biggrin