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Zion (Matrix Reloaded spoilers)

Posted: Mon, 26th May 2003, 10:08am

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curran

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Is Zion part of the Matrix?

That is the question confused

Remember when Neo destroys those machines near the end of the matrix with his super powers ?. I think this hints Zion is part of the Matrix. Since outside the Matrix Neo has no super powers whatsoever ?.
Posted: Mon, 26th May 2003, 10:27am

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Craig

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I agree with this theory - I think everything we see is all part of the Matrix and it's just another elaborate control thing on the part of the 'machines' to make them think they're free.

This has happened 5 times before and each time, Neo looks the same - but the Matrix 'projection' of yourself is dependant on what you look like in 'real' life - and the only way the machines can control what you look like in 'real' life is if 'real' life is in the matrix as well.

Anyway, that's what I think but I've told a few people this already and they disagreed strongly - so I'm just waiting for the next one to answer the questions this one raised.

biggrin
Posted: Mon, 26th May 2003, 10:33am

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moebius

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Yep, I'm convinced that Zion is another "level" of the Matrix, designed to retain the illusion of human autonomy by hosting the elements from the 1st level (i.e. the "normal" world) that have become too self-aware for their own good. An illusion within an illusion to maintain order.
Posted: Mon, 26th May 2003, 10:33am

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Simon K Jones

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This is indeed one possible reason for him being able to stop the Sentinels.

However, I desperately hope the filmmakers don't go down this route, as it would be perhaps the most utterly lame thing in the history of filmmaking.
Posted: Mon, 26th May 2003, 10:57am

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Craig

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From the trailer of the next one, they're keeping the matrix/real life divide strong (they're not corroborating our theories) - unless it's a ruse to make us think that we're wrong until the film comes out.

biggrin

Not long to wait though! ...which is nice.
Posted: Mon, 26th May 2003, 12:07pm

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Marek

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Heres my theory:

Neo is the one. There were 5 "ones" before him each were neo. But somehow this Neo is different. The oracle knows it thats where the prophecy came from. So i beleive since he is THE one he actually has the power to defeat the machines in the real world to bring justice to humanity and end the war. Because the way i see it NOTHING neo does inside the matrix can effect the machines and thats where all the other neos had power, inside the matrix. So if this neo is to end the war something needs to be different (hence the superpowers in the real world)

And Zion is controlled. Just not by the matrix. The one controls the fate of zion when he choses the door. The other neos chose the one to rebuild zion by picking people. This neo chose the other door. The one to save trinity. Whilst passing through the door he was givin another upgrade in order to save her (super super speed)when he does so they get back to the real world where noe must save trinity again. (super powers in the real world.) So really everything that happens to neo, making him superpowerful has to do with his love for trinity.

--marek
Posted: Mon, 26th May 2003, 12:24pm

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er-no

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Tarn wrote:



'as it would be perhaps the most utterly lame thing in the history of filmmaking.'
I'm falling of the fence onto this side. It really wouldn't suprise me if they used yet another philosophical theory. This time being 'The Man in the Machine'.

To put it simply? Its a bit like The Numskulls... surely they have numskulls controlling them so were does it end.

If the Matrix tries to answer this. It'll fall onto its face and become a crap trilogy.

I know the W Brothers want to answer some philosophical questions. As yet they have monged up Hume's theory of cause and effect and still haven't answered 'mind and brain'.

The Animatrix shows a normal runner breaking free from the Matrix. Similar to Neo. Yet he does this without having the program to. I believe the third Matrix will capture the last few episodes of the Animatrix. Which in all was far superior to the second film.

*shuts himself up*
Posted: Mon, 26th May 2003, 1:02pm

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Kyeju

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I am desperatly hoping that the matrix within a matrix theory is wrong. It would ruin the rest of 2003 and my life if they did. The architecht spoke of an anomoly (Maybe the one thing that I could dechipher from his Colonel Sanders KFC gibberish) so I am thinking that Neo's anomoly is outside the matrix. In enter the matrix the oracle spoke of the "child" of two programs which she said was very important. She said the child would change the world forever. So, I am thinking maybe that the two programs made neo have that power when the machines were growing him.

I dont know its just something that I was thinking when I was watching Reloaded on the second viewing.
Posted: Mon, 26th May 2003, 1:23pm

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Joshua Davies

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I think there were several signals in the film that could point to Neo having a link in the real world with the machines. Firstly, we have the agent Smith factor - where he tried to assimilate Neo. It would seem that Agent Smith is a rather random factor which might be the one main difference between Neo's journey (Matrix to the Source) and the other 5 before him. The failed assimilate could mean that Neo is more linked to the machine world than he was before. Even if this is not the case I think he would be very much connected to Agent Smith - even more than before. Smith talks of how Neo was imprinted on to him in the first film, I think he is now imprinted onto Neo as well. In the next film I wouldn't be surprised if the big fight between Neo and Smith took place in their minds in the real world while they are both in a coma.

I also think that this time (unlike the 5 times before) the Oracle could really be on the humans side and Morpheus could be right. As she left Neo she told him that he had made a believer out of her - which I think is probably a signal to this. She was very aware of the decision that Neo had already made in regard to love and the choice he would make in regards to Trinity and his visions which could be the reason for her new found belief in Neo and humanity. If she was against this as she was part of the control I'm sure she would have tried to convince Neo in some way that his main aim is to "save humanity".

"While the others experienced this in a very general way, your experience is far more specific, vis-a-vis, love." Architect

I must admit I'm not sure at all, but it does seem to be a story of how love and hope, which the others before Neo must have lacked as they took the other door, are the source of humanity's greatest strength and our greatest weakness. Think we will find they are our greatest strength in the next film smile

"Hope, it is the quintessential human delusion simultaneously the source of your greatest strength and your greatest weakness." Architect

Last edited Mon, 26th May 2003, 1:41pm; edited 2 times in total.

Posted: Mon, 26th May 2003, 1:27pm

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moebius

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Yet another rumination on Neo as a program:

Perhaps he was written to revive Zion everytime it gets "destroyed" (i.e. erased). If you notice, Zion was heavily populated and - as is the nature of human beings - the people were extremely restless and aggressive (towards machines). Perhaps the Matrix was written such that whenever Zion's population grew too large, it would be purged from the system, resulting in actual biological deaths (cf. the Architect's remark about the machines being able to cope with "acceptable losses").

Neo's job as a program was to rebuild Zion, so that it could be re-populated all over again. This would occur in cycles (hence the clever play on the word "Revolutions" in Part 3: which could either refer to "uprisings" or "cycles").

Due to the introduction of probabilty into the system (by the Oracle) and the resultant creation of self-aware, self-learning (heuristic?) programs, certain programs are able to make different decisions within each cycle. Neo started off as a simple program (hence his flawed early behaviour) but since he has learnt a lot (this is his 6th cycle; he is the 6th version or iteration), he is now able to make more sophisticated choices. Perhaps once he develops human-like characteristics, he will be eliminated from the system as well.

Just random thoughts biggrin
Posted: Mon, 26th May 2003, 1:33pm

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Simon K Jones

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moebius wrote:

Yet another rumination on Neo as a program:

Perhaps he was written to revive Zion everytime it gets "destroyed" (i.e. erased).
Neo wasn't written. He is an anomaly, an unwanted statistic. As the Architect explained, the Matrix only works for 99.9999% of the human population. It's the best they could get it, and vastly more successful than previous versions. But it still means that there is a tiny percentage of human minds that will reject the Matrix - Neo being the latest to do so.

moebius wrote:

Perhaps the Matrix was written such that whenever Zion's population grew too large, it would be purged from the system, resulting in actual biological deaths (cf. the Architect's remark about the machines being able to cope with "acceptable losses").
The "acceptable losses" scenario would only come into play if the Matrix population *and* Zion was wiped out, though.

moebius wrote:

This would occur in cycles (hence the clever play on the word "Revolutions" in Part 3: which could either refer to "uprisings" or "cycles").
Interesting, hadn't though of that...
Posted: Mon, 26th May 2003, 1:38pm

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moebius

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Hehe I stand corrected - I've only watched the movie once, and didn't catch everything the Architect said. I'll watch it again if possible and review my thoughts biggrin
Posted: Mon, 26th May 2003, 1:44pm

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Simon K Jones

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This might prove useful:

http://www.theantitrust.net/articles/viewarticle.php?articleid=108
Posted: Mon, 26th May 2003, 1:49pm

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Joshua Davies

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Hope they give a reason for the Architect bit. Seems a bit pointless, why doesn' t the door of light just go straight to the source as Neo was expecting. Means the machines would have him where they wanted him. Seems a bit silly giving him a choice - maybe they like to live on the edge.
Posted: Mon, 26th May 2003, 1:56pm

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MechaForce

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Well, I was thinking that the Matrix-wthin-a-Matrix thing was what was going on, BUT, Sidewinder put it pretty well:

Neo is still connected to the Matrix even though he is unplugged, and that's how he destroys the machines. It's a "wireless" Matrix thing. Because having a Matrix within a Matrix would screw with the whole point of the movie.

Oh yeah - and also they already made a bunch of Animatrixes which kept the one single Matrix thing. So I don't think they can change it like that.
Posted: Mon, 26th May 2003, 2:13pm

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TAP2

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Neo is still connected to the Matrix even though he is unplugged, and that's how he destroys the machines. It's a "wireless" Matrix thing. Because having a Matrix within a Matrix would screw with the whole point of the movie.
that is a very interesting theory and it does sound the most logical. Perhaps, a device inplanted within him which can emmit something that stops the machines..
I'm really confused at the moment - i'd like to admit i'm not but i don't have a clue whats going on?
What was neo expecting to be the source? and is the archictect human or machine?
Posted: Mon, 26th May 2003, 2:26pm

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toyPYROmachine

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We all have these huge theories that can be divided into millions of bits of information and we could spend years devising ways to understand what happened in the Matrix Reloaded. I am going with the whole "wireless" idea that Mecha posted...

...But what would really suck was if the Wachowski brothers didn't realize that Neo was out of the matrix when he destroyed the Sentinels. They might have overlooked this fact, and then they filmed it and put it in the movie. Come release day, Andy is like "OH CRAP! NEO WASN'T IN THE MATRIX WHEN HE DESTROYED THE SENTINELS! WE HAVE RUINED OUR CAREER! They realize that they have made a HUGE mistake and they just pray that nobody notices...But when people do notice, they pay millions of dollars for writers to come up with a reason for this happening...

But of course this could not happen. They are geniuses. Oh god I hope what I just said isn't true.
Posted: Mon, 26th May 2003, 3:08pm

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Joshua Davies

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Neo isn't the only person still connected to the machines in the real world. If we think about it the human that Agent Smith assimilated is probably still connected otherwise when the machines attcked they would have killed him as well. They did say he was the only person to survive the attack and he now appears to be in a strange coma just like Neo.
Posted: Mon, 26th May 2003, 3:37pm

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v6proz

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Intresting. Finally a place where you can share a opinion and read other sensible opinions. All my friends (sorry guys) are quite stupid and the only thing they care about, and talk about is the action scenes - There so cool blah blah blagh. They don't realy understand a shit about the script, mainly becouse they don't know that much of computers problebly, becouse Matrix is very inspiered from that world and Anime/ Hongkong.

Well, enough said about that - I'm not that smart either. But, what do you guys think of Mr. Smith, he is like a virus or whatever, that get's all crazy about Neo. He can take over other humans now, resualting to there death problably (he killed quite a few in that action scene smile ) Now in the beginning of the movie a Computer Program (mr. smith) takes over a "real human" and sends back his mind to the "real world" wich realy confusses me. Can someone smart please explain!
It realy made me think, How the hell can a program controll real flesh and muscels without getting all Cerebral Pares? This script realy confusses me, alot. So that could not be the real world right?... And if Neo gets Real super powers over the robots in the real world like Superman, that would suck big time!

They shouldn't have done a sequall tard I was happy over the first movie and the end was good becouse you could think for your self, and no theiry was wrong or accurate.

Enough from me, Now you can explain to me or call me Stupid.
Posted: Mon, 26th May 2003, 3:43pm

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Simon K Jones

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ok Stupid, I'll try to explain. wink

Regarding Smith ending up in the body of the human in the real world, I would imagine that would be possible - he simply uploaded himself into the guy's mind.

And you're right about Neo just magically having superpowers in the real world - it would suck in a rather large fashion.
Posted: Mon, 26th May 2003, 3:44pm

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Joshua Davies

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he simply uploaded himself into the guy's mind
as ya do... wink
Posted: Mon, 26th May 2003, 3:49pm

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sidewinder

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Oh, and when the architect is referring to the 99.9% that reject the Matrix, he isn't referring to the one, he's referring to Zion. You see, the small percentage that reject the matrix end up waking up, hence the reason for the machine that unplugs Neo in the first film. Then the inhabitants of Zion pick him/her up, and bring them to the city. The machines don't have very much control over this process, and free humans are a dangerous thing, so they create The One to unwittingly deceive the people of Zion, leading to its destruction.

Unfortunately for the machines, this won't happen. If you remember, the architect told Neo that Trinity was going to die, yet she didn't. This proves that The Matrix is becoming more unstable than the machines have ever let it become. So what about the deaths of all the people living in the matrix? Well, if all those people are Agent Smith, what's the problem? Agent Smith is a virus that will destroy the matrix, because he hates it just as much as Neo. I believe that Smith will eventually infect every single person, leading to the total shut-down of the matrix, since no human lives can be saved.

And what about Neo's real world powers? He has subconciously altered the matrix before, and in turn alterred anything in real life connected to the matrix. If you remember Cypher (not the one of Scope-Films...), Cypher was planning on killing Neo, and the rest of the ship's crew. I believe that Neo sensed this when he was plugged in at the same time as Cypher, and subconciously trained Cypher to miss when he fired that first shot at Tank.

This in turn leads to the destruction of the sentinels. If somewhat unwittingly, Neo has once again alterred the matrix, changing the code so that it obeys him, and he controls everything connected to it (remember, this takes place AFTER the meeting with the architect). Now, it isn't that difficult to believe that Neo is still connected to the matrix, even if he isn't plugged in. There is such a thing as wireless technology, and Neo is basically half cyborg. Don't forget that the architect told Neo that he had taken on a few traits of a machine.

Anyways, either Neo is controlling the real-world machines through the matrix, or he has reprogrammed the matrix, and hence all machines connected to it, to respond to his real-world actions. There is no Matrix-within-a-Matrix.
Posted: Mon, 26th May 2003, 3:59pm

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TAP2

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...But what would really suck was if the Wachowski brothers didn't realize that Neo was out of the matrix when he destroyed the Sentinels. They might have overlooked this fact, and then they filmed it and put it in the movie. Come release day, Andy is like "OH CRAP! NEO WASN'T IN THE MATRIX WHEN HE DESTROYED THE SENTINELS! WE HAVE RUINED OUR CAREER! They realize that they have made a HUGE mistake and they just pray that nobody notices...But when people do notice, they pay millions of dollars for writers to come up with a reason for this happening...

But of course this could not happen. They are geniuses. Oh god I hope what I just said isn't true
A simple thought just sprang to mind when i read that -
What is NEO never left the matrix! or the Architect sent him to a different MATRIX where the free humans (e.g trinity) are computer actors!?
Perhaps he is still in... but in a different area?

Just a simple thougt, but i've only seen it once and there might of been something u guys picked up which won't allow that to be possible.

If you remember, in one of NEO'S DREAMS Agent Smith went through the PHONE!!!!!
HOW CAN AGENT SMITH LEAVE THE MATRIX????
What do you think about this?

Also what do you guys think of the ONLY SURVIVOR.. who tried to kill NEO at the beggining?
Posted: Mon, 26th May 2003, 4:04pm

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Simon K Jones

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TAP2 wrote:

If you remember, in one of NEO'S DREAMS Agent Smith went through the PHONE!!!!!
HOW CAN AGENT SMITH LEAVE THE MATRIX????
What do you think about this?

Also what do you guys think of the ONLY SURVIVOR.. who tried to kill NEO at the beggining?
Both those events are linked.

When Agent Smith left the Matrix via the phone it actually happened, it wasn't a dream. He uploaded himself into the bearded guy, who then tried to kill Neo in Zion. In other words, the beardy guy IS Smith.

The reason he was the only survivor is a) because he set off the EMP himself, wiping out half the fleet and b) he presumably has some kind of control over the machines in the real world as well, due to Smith's presence. He also passed into a coma after influencing the sentinels, just as Neo did.

It's all starting to come together....maybe.
Posted: Mon, 26th May 2003, 4:06pm

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Joshua Davies

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Yeah Tarn - lets hope we're right otherwise I'm gonna go mad.

If you remember, the architect told Neo that Trinity was going to die, yet she didn't.
Trinity did die, as did Neo in the first film. Thats kinda the point Sidewinder. She dies (heart stops like Neo in the first film) and Neo brings her back to life.

I believe that Neo sensed this when he was plugged in at the same time as Cypher, and subconciously trained Cypher to miss when he fired that first shot at Tank.
What? You have any evidence to back this up at all? Neo wasn't even "The One" as such at this point of the first movie. Remember the Oracle said he might be The One "maybe in another life". Hence his death and rebirth at the end of the film - another life.

Last edited Mon, 26th May 2003, 4:20pm; edited 2 times in total.

Posted: Mon, 26th May 2003, 4:12pm

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TAP2

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Both those events are linked.

When Agent Smith left the Matrix via the phone it actually happened, it wasn't a dream. He uploaded himself into the bearded guy, who then tried to kill Neo in Zion. In other words, the beardy guy IS Smith.

The reason he was the only survivor is a) because he set off the EMP himself, wiping out half the fleet and b) he presumably has some kind of control over the machines in the real world as well, due to Smith's presence. He also passed into a coma after influencing the sentinels, just as Neo did.

It's all starting to come together....maybe.
That is possible the best "theory" i've heard.
It definately makes sense.... ok, so what we've got to consider is if Agent Smith is a computer programme how did he get into the beard guy.
This opens the possibility that zion is indeed possibly another matrix OR some sort of device is inplanted in all humans which allows them to be computer controlled?
Posted: Mon, 26th May 2003, 4:15pm

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TAP2

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Trinity did die, as did Neo in the first film.
????????
Posted: Mon, 26th May 2003, 4:20pm

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Simon K Jones

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Seeing as how the Matrix itself works by cyborg implants feeding information directly into the human brain, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to think that Smith could upload himself the same way, overriding/overwiting the human personality in the process.
Posted: Mon, 26th May 2003, 4:24pm

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TAP2

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True, that must be what he does to his clones.

I really can't wait untill November.
and knowing they've finished the 3rd is so annoying.
Posted: Mon, 26th May 2003, 4:27pm

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moebius

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After reading the conversation between The Architect and Neo, I must admit that my initial Matrix-within-a-Matrix postulation is in dire straits.

Here are my latest thoughts:

The system thrives on human-machine symbiosis to such a degree that a cross-filtration of data from both parties is possible. Just as how Agent Smith, a program, was able to insert himself into a physical body, so is The Architect able to insert commands into a human body, namely that of Neo. Neo, therefore, is a "carrier" of The Architect's code, although he was unaware of it until The Architect spilled the beans.

Being a carrier of code (and therefore, being an unknowing servant of The Architect) means that the machines have a vested interest in Neo's survival. Hence, the sentinels were designed to self-destruct whenever on the brink of destroying the One. After processing The Architect's speech, and coming to the realisation that he was an instrument of the Matrix, as it were, Neo knew he could stand his ground and still not be obliterated by the Sentinels. His dramatic gesture prior to the malfunction of the sentinels was probably artistic license on his part. biggrin

More to come...
Posted: Mon, 26th May 2003, 4:31pm

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v6proz

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Someone wrote this in another forum:

Architect – God
Neo – Jesus the savor
Trinity – Mary Magdalene
Morpheus – John the Baptist
French Villain – Satan
Mistress – Fallen angel
Twins – Devils apprentice

God made the Matrix, Neo was born in it to die for our sins, and Mary will be on Jesus side when he dies. I’m using their names to reference of the bible. As you can see Morpheus is sort of a profit which converts people to believe that he will save them all from the evil matrix. The antagonist would be the French guy in which taunts Neo and mocks him, tries to kill him. The mistress helps Neo in finding the key maker, and the twins carry out the devils work in stopping Neo from taking the key maker
If you compare The Matrix with the bible, then i could ask my mom!!! smile
She studies religion and have explored all religion, even thoose realy strange and small one's. She's studied religion in like 20 years or more. I could ask her and see what she thinks, and a bonus!... She maybe get's intrested in the Matrix Trilogi biggrin That would be cool... and strange.
Posted: Mon, 26th May 2003, 4:33pm

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TAP2

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u guys are coming up with some seriously impressive ideas.
Posted: Mon, 26th May 2003, 4:46pm

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Kyeju

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No No.

The Matrix is satan because it enslaves humans into thinking they are incharge of their own destiny. That is exactly what Satan Does.

Neo is Jesus. Hence the "My own personal Jesus Christ line in in movie #1."

Trinity is the holy ghost i think. I read somewhere that her metaphor is about love which is probably the key to the entire story of the matrix. Neo the anomaly empowered with love.

Morpheus is god. John Gaeda even said it himslef. Watch the commentary on the dvd during the jump program. "Ok I just have to say Laurence Fishburne kicks holy ass." Morpheus is greek for "Dream God." Also in Enter the Matrix there is a message in the airport level that says "Hello this is The David Institute of dream interpretation." and its Morpheus' voice.

Cypher was Judas he betrayed Jesus aka Neo.

Persephone is in greek mythology. Read Hymn to Demeter. She is a Hades reluctant wife. But I assure you that Mierovingian is not essantial enough to be Satan.

Your'e right about the twins though I think they are supposed to be like Hade's guard dog who has 3 heads.

And that Colonel Sanders guy is just meaningless. The point of him was just to piss you off and root for neo. Hes like a note in a kidnapping movie. Just for information.

Done for now
Posted: Mon, 26th May 2003, 4:51pm

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moebius

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I must say this biblical twist is very intriguing indeed! biggrin
Posted: Mon, 26th May 2003, 5:05pm

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anonymous

Ok i just got a thought when reading through all your peoples thoughts. What if there is two one's, trinity was second, because she died and then came back to life like neo did in the first one. i'm probably wrong but its just a thought.
Posted: Mon, 26th May 2003, 5:08pm

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no_hole

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that was me
Posted: Mon, 26th May 2003, 5:13pm

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v6proz

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Yeah, agree with Matrix beeing Satan. That text i quoted is not written by me.
moebius: Yeah, religion is not only booring church stuff.
Posted: Mon, 26th May 2003, 5:34pm

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Kyeju

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Heres a Linkie.
Posted: Mon, 26th May 2003, 5:41pm

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Marek

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eek eek eek that is the longest damn thing i have ever seen. eek eek eek
Posted: Mon, 26th May 2003, 6:31pm

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fanofthepeople

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I believe in the matrix within a matrix scenario, and its the only solution to the third movie. The movie talks about choice, choice being an illusion by those with power. And the first movie was about reality, reality being what your thought it was. What your brain told you it was. The reason why I say that the duality matrix is the only answer is because of how the emphasised the importance of how choice is the only thing that people have in the war against machines. If you were the architect, and you made a program that
was 99.9% effective, would you not make another program to govern that program? Another matrix which makes it a very small chance that the anamoly that you are trying to avoid can almost never happen?. The other Neos were just the anamoly of the first matrix, but this neo, the neo we all see now, is the anamoly of the anamoly.He is the anamoly of the duality matrix. And he will fufill the prophacy of the first matrix and be the first to really wake up and free people. Although there is one thing that has left me asking questions, Whats up with the kid?
Posted: Mon, 26th May 2003, 6:54pm

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Marek

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MechaForce wrote:


Oh yeah - and also they already made a bunch of Animatrixes which kept the one single Matrix thing. So I don't think they can change it like that.
ummm... yeah i agree with him

oh yeah... what kid are you talking about?
Posted: Mon, 26th May 2003, 7:05pm

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Kyeju

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The Kid is that kid who was annoying Neo about how he wants to be on the nebachunezzar and how Neo saved him in Reloaded. Well there is a short in the animatrix called The Kid and is about how he escaped The Matrix. Does that explain it?
Posted: Mon, 26th May 2003, 8:24pm

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toyPYROmachine

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Probably...

Does anybody else think that they got a different script writer just for the architect? He uses lots of big words...I need to download the movie and watch that scene...then I need to pause it every time he says a big word and look it up. I didn't know what anomoly meant until my mom said it was one who didn't fit in....Does anybody have a link to the text version of that scene?

After I watched the movie the first time (I skipped school to see it, yes I know I am a NERD) I came home and went to see it again just to try and understand that scene with the Architect.

And the whole biblical twist thing....If you guys go to the official matrix web site you can find out that The Matrix is a mixture of many many different ideas and references...It isn't ALL biblical...its bits and pieces...
Posted: Mon, 26th May 2003, 9:42pm

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Kyeju

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The basic theories of the matrix, the theory of our reality being false has been thought of for a long time. They definetely got inspiration from Ghost in the Shell, a sweet japanese animae that I myself have seen and is my fav animae. If you watch it there are parts that the matrix completely ripped off (the jump program.) They got ideas from mythology, comics, the bible, philosophy. If you have the Matrix Revisited they will talk about Simulacra Simulation which is a really crazy and hard thing to explain. Also I think Blade had bullet time even before the matrix did.
Posted: Mon, 26th May 2003, 10:04pm

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Simon K Jones

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Blade doesn't have bullet-time, it just has slow-motion and a CG bullet. smile

However, Blade 2 does have some very funky liberated camera movements, including the amazingly good one at the start when Blade dives out the window, flips over, fires the gun, the camera tracks back with the bullet, then the vampire gets dusted.
Posted: Tue, 27th May 2003, 4:20pm

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Kyeju

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Yea but the ripples off that bullet look almost exactly like the ones where neo is stopping them in the matrix one.
Posted: Tue, 27th May 2003, 6:34pm

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Simon K Jones

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Yes, but as we keep trying to explain, bullet-time is not being able to do CG bullet ripples. Anyone can do that. Bullet-time is doing the liberated camera funky moves, like when Neo dodges the Agent's bullets in the first film.
Posted: Tue, 3rd Jun 2003, 3:38am

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Cypher

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Neo is intended (or it seems) to be a Jesus figure...but the other side CAN be argued as well. It's one of those things that will never be settled. But here is some thought to ponder:


Neo: Savior or Terrorist?

Jesus.

A child born of a woman through the power of God. He is brought up in a humble family and raised as a Jew, tort about God and Heaven by his parents. When he's 12 and his family go to worship in Jerusalem when they leave they realize Jesus isn't with them. They have to go back to Jerusalem and they find him in the temple asking the wise men questions about religion. The wise men are amazed by his understanding and reasoning at such a young age. At 30 he is baptized by John The Baptist and all of his memories from heaven are returned to him. He sees the light. With this he now understands his purpose and goes on a 3 year preaching work to show others the light. A pacifist who only had 1 outburst of anger and it was a justified outburst and he never harmed anybody. After 3 and half years he died at the hands of the Romans and was raised from the dead to a spirit body 3 days later.

Neo's similarities. He met Morpheus who supposedly represents John the Baptist only instead of being baptized he takes a pill. This allows him to see the light and understand his purpose. At the end of the film he dies and is raised from the dead.

Other things to remember. Neo was born due to the machines who do not represent God but the Devil. We know nothing about his childhood but if we think of The truth it's safe to say his parents never raised him to believe that the world was a supercomputer called The Matrix. Plus Neo is such an idiot that I doubt he asked Deep questions about reality when he was 12.
After Neo see's the light he sets about to "Save" the world by shooting everyone. If Morpheus is really a representative of John the baptist then I missed an account during my bible reading. I don't recall an account after John The Baptist was imprisoned where Jesus burst into the building with a bunch of Oozes and killed everyone. Nothing represented there. Neo not only kills people but does it when there's no need. At times when stealth would work better he still goes in all guns blazing and shoots a lot of people. Then even if he does succeed as the saviour it will not be a Jesus style of saviour on all mankind into a better world. He will destroy The Matrix which will kill all of the people still inside, and those that did escape will be forced to live their lives in a Barron Wasteland, no sun, no plants, no animals and only some kind of raw egg protein substance as the only food they will ever eat again. Either way Neo is still proving that he will kill any infidels of The Matrix in order to make the world safe for the people of the Holy city of Zion.

The Jesus explanation while I believe was attempted by the Wochowskies has more holes than a golf course. They threw in the most shallow examples of Jesus life that everyone knows while ignoring even the slightest bit of digging and hen changed it to an action world so that their world could be all cool and awesome, so based on The Animatrix episodes, The Last Renascence parts 1 and 2 here is what I consider a more sound explanation of the film.

We know that humans are to blame for starting the war with machines. We know that humans treated machines badly, humans decided to kill robots in masses. When the robots asked for peace we know that the humans bombed them with nuclear weapons and we know that humans burned the sky. We also know that the machines set up The Matrix with a perfect crime free world at first until Humans recreated crime and violence. So here's my theory.

The machines didn't set up The Matrix to imprison people, they set it up to help both races survive. The humans had no variety in their food now the sun was gone just that eggy substance. They had no visual aids to enjoy just a barren post apocalyptic wasteland. The machines had no power when Solar energy was destroyed. So the machines created a virtual world where the humans could live their lives happily. Blissfully unaware of the horrible events before. The agents never killed a person throughout the film except those who were hacking The Matrix while neo and co killed many. The only explanation is that the agents are a sort of firewall program set up in order to protect the people in The Matrix, whilst the freedom fighters are nothing but a bunch of terrorists. Religious fanatics who are only interested in killing everyone who is not one of them. They don't want the people in the Matrix to live happy lives. They want them to die free, even though the freedom will most likely only come through their deaths and so they're not bothered how many innocents die in the name of Zion.

And someone said: "Neo is not a Jesus figure, he's a Bin Laden and I'm looking forward to see who's playing Saddam in the next film."

Not saying I necessarily agree with this (mainly because i dont care that much), but some points are very strong.